Oddstar
2021-09-05, 12:01 AM
I have a question: how, if at all, would or should the feat Multigrab (FR: Serpent Kingdoms p. 146) work with the feat Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm p.52)? The reason for the question is that Scorpion's Grasp, as I read it, effectively gives you Improved Grab. Here is the description of Scorpion's Grasp, in relevant part:
If your attack with an un-armed strike or a light or one-handed melee weapon hits, the strike deals normal damage and you can attempt to start a grapple as a free action; no initial touch attack is required....You have the option to conduct the grapple normally, or you may hold a creature one or more sizes smaller than you with your off hand. If you choose to do the latter, you take a -20 penalty on grapple checks against that creature and you cannot deal damage with your grapple checks, but you are not considered grappled yourself. You don't lose your Dexterity bonus to AC, you still threaten an area, and you can use remaining attacks against other opponents. While maintaining this latter type of hold, you can move normally (possibly carrying your opponent away), provided you can drag the opponent's weight.
And here is the description, in relevant part, of Improved Grab:
If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity....No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents....When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent's weight.
So they seem very similar. The only significant differences are that 1) Scorpion's Grasp requires a hit with an unarmed strike or a light or one-handed melee weapon, while Improved Grab allows any melee weapon (usually a natural weapon though); 2) Improved Grab only works at all against smaller opponents, while Scorpion's Grasp works against smaller opponents, but only allows maintaining the grapple with your off hand against smaller opponents; 3) Improved Grab pulls the target into the grappler's space, while Scorpion's Grasp says nothing about that so presumably has the grappler move into the target's space as normal; and 4) Improved Grab allows maintaining the hold with the body part with which the attack was made, while Scorpion's Grasp allows maintaining the hold with the off hand, which may or may not be the body part with which the attack was made. It is this last difference that is most relevant, because Multigrab, which requires Improved Grab as a prerequisite, reads, in relevant part, as follows:
When grappling an opponent with the part of your body that made the attack, you take only a -10 penalty on grapple checks to maintain the hold. So should Multigrab also work with Scorpion's Grasp? That is, should someone with Scorpion's Grasp be allowed to take Multigrab and reduce the penalty for maintaining the hold with his off-hand to -10? Incidentally, there is also Improved Multigrab, which reduces the penalty to zero; this question obviously applies to that feat as well.
I don't want to prejudice others' opinions, but I admit I am inclined to allow it. As I see it, the whole point of Scorpion's Grasp is to give Improved Grab to creatures who would not naturally have it. The reason it says "off hand" instead of "body part", as I see it, is that Improved Grab assumes a creature making a natural attack (it's actually tentacles, tendrils, or other constricting limbs at least as often as bites or claws), because it tends to be those sorts of creatures that have Improved Grab, whereas Scorpion's Grasp assumes a humanoid. That being said, I would certainly allow a non-humanoid creature that did not have hands to take and make full use of it (you do not need hands to qualify for Scorpion's Grasp or any of its prereqs). So I am leaning toward saying that Multigrab should work with it too. It would help me to hear what others think, though, and why.
If your attack with an un-armed strike or a light or one-handed melee weapon hits, the strike deals normal damage and you can attempt to start a grapple as a free action; no initial touch attack is required....You have the option to conduct the grapple normally, or you may hold a creature one or more sizes smaller than you with your off hand. If you choose to do the latter, you take a -20 penalty on grapple checks against that creature and you cannot deal damage with your grapple checks, but you are not considered grappled yourself. You don't lose your Dexterity bonus to AC, you still threaten an area, and you can use remaining attacks against other opponents. While maintaining this latter type of hold, you can move normally (possibly carrying your opponent away), provided you can drag the opponent's weight.
And here is the description, in relevant part, of Improved Grab:
If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity....No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents....When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent's weight.
So they seem very similar. The only significant differences are that 1) Scorpion's Grasp requires a hit with an unarmed strike or a light or one-handed melee weapon, while Improved Grab allows any melee weapon (usually a natural weapon though); 2) Improved Grab only works at all against smaller opponents, while Scorpion's Grasp works against smaller opponents, but only allows maintaining the grapple with your off hand against smaller opponents; 3) Improved Grab pulls the target into the grappler's space, while Scorpion's Grasp says nothing about that so presumably has the grappler move into the target's space as normal; and 4) Improved Grab allows maintaining the hold with the body part with which the attack was made, while Scorpion's Grasp allows maintaining the hold with the off hand, which may or may not be the body part with which the attack was made. It is this last difference that is most relevant, because Multigrab, which requires Improved Grab as a prerequisite, reads, in relevant part, as follows:
When grappling an opponent with the part of your body that made the attack, you take only a -10 penalty on grapple checks to maintain the hold. So should Multigrab also work with Scorpion's Grasp? That is, should someone with Scorpion's Grasp be allowed to take Multigrab and reduce the penalty for maintaining the hold with his off-hand to -10? Incidentally, there is also Improved Multigrab, which reduces the penalty to zero; this question obviously applies to that feat as well.
I don't want to prejudice others' opinions, but I admit I am inclined to allow it. As I see it, the whole point of Scorpion's Grasp is to give Improved Grab to creatures who would not naturally have it. The reason it says "off hand" instead of "body part", as I see it, is that Improved Grab assumes a creature making a natural attack (it's actually tentacles, tendrils, or other constricting limbs at least as often as bites or claws), because it tends to be those sorts of creatures that have Improved Grab, whereas Scorpion's Grasp assumes a humanoid. That being said, I would certainly allow a non-humanoid creature that did not have hands to take and make full use of it (you do not need hands to qualify for Scorpion's Grasp or any of its prereqs). So I am leaning toward saying that Multigrab should work with it too. It would help me to hear what others think, though, and why.