Sorcerers learning metamagic spells as a spells known. Cannot find the RAW.

[ThanatosZero]

We all have heard at one point that spontanous casters like the sorcerer and bard, can learn a modified spell in place of a high level spell, assuming they know the unmodified original spell as well and have most importantly the metamagic feat in question.
For example: A quickened fireball takes up the spell slot of 7th level spellslot (fireball 3rd level + 4 spell levels) and can be learned as 7th level spells known

Now I have run into the issue of not finding the source of this additional ruling.
Neither in the PHB, PHB2, CA, CM and UA. Not even the RC has it.

Either it is in Dragon Magazine, did use the false terms for searching or it has been made up.

[Buufreak]

We all have heard at one point that spontanous casters like the sorcerer and bard, can learn a modified spell in place of a high level spell, assuming they know the unmodified original spell as well.


No, actually, can't say that I have. They learn metamagic just as anyone else does, by gaining a feat.

[ThanatosZero]

No, actually, can't say that I have. They learn metamagic just as anyone else does, by gaining a feat.
I forgot to add, that they also need to have the metamagic feat in question.

The issue with spontanous metamagic is, that spontanous metamagic requires a full round, which makes the Quicken metamagic feat useless.
There are feats and ACF and different rulings which help with spontanous metamagic, but that particular ruling, which allows you to learn a modified spell eludes me.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Well‚ you didn't find it because there is no RAW for it. Sorcerers don't have to learn metamagicked spells. If they know fireball and have Maximized Spell‚ then they can cast Maximized Fireball out of a 6th level slot. And they can't "learn" Maximized or Quickened Fireball so that it doesn't take them a full-round action.

[Lans]

Are you thinking of spirit shaman

[Silly Name]

I can't say I've ever heard of this. Are you sure it's not a houserule?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Are you thinking of spirit shaman

Spirit Shaman is the only instance that I can think of where a spontaneous caster applies metamagic before casting it. There might be some obscure PrC or Dragon feat that allows it, but I'm not aware of it.

[Goblite]

Yea I've heard it too but also don't remember where. The gimmick is that instead of spending a full round to apply the metamagic you just treat the metamagic modified spell as a unique spell on its own and you add that spell to your known list in place of a spell of that level. E.g. you learn "quickened fireball" as a 7th level spell and don't need to apply anything to it thus you can actually cast it as a free action. Drawback is that.. fireball is still a 3rd level spell and it's dc reflects that... or does it? This is why knowing the where the raw came from would help. I've definitely heard it before though.

[daremetoidareyo]

maybe check 3.0s tome and blood?

[Maat Mons]

The only thing that comes to mind is the Metaspell feat, from Mongoose Publishing. Though that explicitly doesn't require you to know the base spell or have the metamagic feat.

[ThanatosZero]

it is super odd. In my years of lurking as a non-member and now member I did read on occassion, that spontanous casters were capable of that.


maybe check 3.0s tome and blood?
And done. I cannot find it here either.

[Zanos]

Practical Enchanter allows you to research spells with built in meta-magic adjustments, but that's 3rd party.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Arcane Preparation (CArc) allows a spontaneous caster to prepare a spell like a prep caster and apply metamagic to that spell without increasing casting time. It also appeared in PgtF and Tome and Blood, so perhaps it's what people are thinking of, even though it doesn't 100% fit.

[AvatarVecna]

I've never heard of this being a general thing. Specific mechanics (like the above feat letting spontaneous casters prepare a spell as metamagic to get around the casting time issue), but that's about it.

[Telok]

it is super odd. In my years of lurking as a non-member and now member I did read on occassion, that spontanous casters were capable of that.


And done. I cannot find it here either.

Checking 3.0 would be my suggestion too. I remember thinking it was rule for years and years too, but never finding it spelled out. It could also have been stealth errataed out between one prining and the next.

Unfortunately I think you will have to scour old books. Internet searches are likely to be filled with false hits.

[Thurbane]

I can definitely remember having heard this as an optional rule before, but I can't remember if it was somewhere official, or a houserule I saw discussed...

[Techwarrior]

I'm almost positive I saw this in the custom spell creation section of one of the core rulebooks. It might have been 3.0 or 3.5 and might have been in the dmg or players handbook.

[Particle_Man]

Midnight Metamagic is a feat that can pull it off, incarnum permitting.

[icefractal]

Pretty sure this is a house-rule, which I do use myself. The following's the reasoning, but not (AFAIK) RAW:

1) Wizards can research custom spells.
2) Sorcerers aren't learning or being granted their magic from existing sources, they develop it internally and idiosyncratically. Therefore, they should be able to take any arcane-suitable spell (one which a Wizard would be allowed to research) as one of their known spells.
3) There's nothing specific to metamagic about this, it's just that the existence of it creates a "pre-approved" situation where a GM can safely accept it without further examination. Ie., people can already cast Quickened Fireball out of a 7th level slot, so having it as a 7th level spell would be fine.

About the spell level for DC purposes - I would treat it as a 7th level spell for all purposes. But then, I treat metamagic spells as being the higher level for all purposes too. It has no negative balance effect (metamagic sans cheese is mostly a bit weak), and easily avoids a bunch of loopholes caused by the spell level / slot level discontinuity.

[StSword]

It's an option from the wotc book of houserules Unearthed Arcana page 140- House Rule: Metamagic and Sorcerers 1 by James Wyatt.

Just like last time this came up here.

Also part of the wiki here (https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/variant/unearthedMetamagic.html).

[daremetoidareyo]

It's an option from the wotc book of houserules Unearthed Arcana page 140- House Rule: Sorcerers and Metamagic 1 by James Wyatt.

Just like last time this came up here. lol

Well done.

[StSword]

Well done.

Thank you, I just find it funny I'm the only one who can remember it..

[Thurbane]

Thank you, I just find it funny I'm the only one who can remember it..

Great job finding it: I scoured PHB and DMG - UA should have been the obvious next place to look, but it didn't occur to me.

People, including myself, sometimes forget that not everything in UA makes it into the expanded SRD.

[Beni-Kujaku]

It's an option from the wotc book of houserules Unearthed Arcana page 140- House Rule: Metamagic and Sorcerers 1 by James Wyatt.

Just like last time this came up here.

Also part of the wiki here (https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/variant/unearthedMetamagic.html).

Good job! It really surprises me that this rule even exists, but that's a nice bone to give to the sorcerers. They need all the help they can get if they're to be compared to wizards.

[StSword]

Good job! It really surprises me that this rule even exists, but that's a nice bone to give to the sorcerers. They need all the help they can get if they're to be compared to wizards.


Yes apparently the UA authors didn't get the memo about sorcerers being perpetually shafted, so several options for adding metamagic goodness to Sorcerer types.

[Rebel7284]

While it's nice to know that this option exists, it seems pretty punishing. You need to take Quicken Spell AND give up a spell of the higher level. Metamagic Specialist (PHII p. 61) seems like a better deal most of the time.

[Thurbane]

I think on almost every spontaneous caster I've done a build for, Rapid Metamagic is their level 9 feat.

[daremetoidareyo]

While it's nice to know that this option exists, it seems pretty punishing. You need to take Quicken Spell AND give up a spell of the higher level. Metamagic Specialist (PHII p. 61) seems like a better deal most of the time.

It does make spellscale a more playable race tho

[Kuulvheysoon]

I think on almost every spontaneous caster I've done a build for, Rapid Metamagic is their level 9 feat.

Not going to lie, the last time that I ran 3.5E I gave the Sorceror Eschew Components at 1st and Rapid Metamagic at 3rd as bonus feats. So I hear ya.

[Asmotherion]

I've done it before, I just can't remember if my DM was houseruling that one or not. If it is a thing, I guess it might be a Dragon Magazine thing. Sorcerer is one of my favorite classes, so I believe I'd remember the source of something like that otherwise.


It does make spellscale a more playable race tho Spellscales make excelent Incantatrixes, just saying...

[Remuko]

I've done it before, I just can't remember if my DM was houseruling that one or not. If it is a thing, I guess it might be a Dragon Magazine thing. Sorcerer is one of my favorite classes, so I believe I'd remember the source of something like that otherwise.

Spellscales make excelent Incantatrixes, just saying...

you seem to be questioning if its a thing or not but someone a few posts back confirmed it is.


It's an option from the wotc book of houserules Unearthed Arcana page 140- House Rule: Metamagic and Sorcerers 1 by James Wyatt.

[Asmotherion]

you seem to be questioning if its a thing or not but someone a few posts back confirmed it is.
oh, cool. I skipped ahaid and didn't really read all posts tbh.