Deity's, race, followers, and favored weapon questions.

[bean illus]

Some races have few deity choices. Can a cleric worship a deity of another (assumingly non-oppossed) race?

Also, on Troacctid's list (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTqo16E_7z1S6o1PAL74PkJXVk88KKtb5_g43SPXpc7Zf7AKd BA8tZT4cFqD5lpzHIrErnEsCdIM5es/pubhtml) are some details I'm having trouble tracking down.

Altua is listed with the domains Glory, and War, but i can't find the reference/source. Is it true?

Mayaheine has favored weapon as: bastard sword, mace, longbow. What's that about? Choose one? Get 3?

I can't seem to find much about Knights of the Silver Flame. Who are they? Can they be used generic, or are they too tangled up in Eberron (which i don't have).

[Particle_Man]

I could be wrong but I think that dwarf gods require dwarf clerics (although lay worshippers don’t have to be dwarves). This is similar for many races (well half-elves likely could worship elven gods), with the exception of most draconic and human gods (excepting a god of human supremacy, I imagine), who will take worshippers of other races.

And humans and dragons can breed with almost anything. Coincidence? Hmmmmmm. :smallbiggrin:

[Biggus]

Altura is listed with the domains Glory, and War, but i can't find the reference/source. Is it true?


I guess you mean Altua? If so it's Complete Warrior p.147.

[Maat Mons]

Per page 32 of the Player's Handbook:

If the typical worshipers of a deity include the members of a race, a cleric must be of the indicated race to choose that deity as his own. (The god may have occasional worshipers of other races, but not clerics.)


This is why you can't, for example, have a human Cleric of Ehlonna.

[bean illus]

I guess you mean Altua? If so it's Complete Warrior p.147.

Yes. Typo.
There's not much about Altua in CW, and no reference to the glory domain. Anthing else?


Per page 32 of the Player's Handbook:

This is why you can't, for example, have a human Cleric of Ehlonna.

Yeah, now i remember reading that.

But wait, CW says humans can worship any deity in the warrior pantheon. Also that dwarves may worship Altura, but also by class and alignment, whis says basically "any". This is sorta true for the other races also.

Is this just a quirk of the warrior pantheon?

What race is Altura? Do all deities have a "race"?

[Biggus]

Yes. Typo.
There's not much about Altua in CW, and no reference to the glory domain. Anthing else?


Oh yes, I didn't notice that. I suspect glory may be a typo for good on Troacctid's part?

And no, I'm not aware of any other info on Altua I'm afraid.

[Particle_Man]

But wait, CW says humans can worship any deity in the warrior pantheon. Also that dwarves may worship Altura, but also by class and alignment, whis says basically "any". This is sorta true for the other races also.

Is this just a quirk of the warrior pantheon?

There is a difference between “can worship” and “can be a cleric of”. Perhaps a human fighter can worship the orc war god Gruumsh but can’t multiclass as a cleric of Gruumsh?

[Silly Name]

As an addendum, specific deities and pantheons can break the rules. Some gods accept clerics of alignments that would be incompatible with their own, for example Mystra herself is NG but her clerics can be of any lawful alignment on top of the "one step removed" rule.
With that in mind, patron deities of a specific race (or at least strongly tied to said race), may accept clerics of other races.

[Tzardok]

Some races have few deity choices. Can a cleric worship a deity of another (assumingly non-oppossed) race?

IIRC, sourcebooks are contradictory in that regard. I personally ignore rules for racial worship restrictions.


Mayaheine has favored weapon as: bastard sword, mace, longbow. What's that about? Choose one? Get 3?

The problem is that the description of deities in the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer includes an entree Weapons that lists which weapons the worshippers commonly use, without noting which weapon is the favoured weapon. The Living Greyhawk Deities document remedies that by splitting the entree into Favoured Weapon and Other Preferred Weapons. By that document, Mayaheine's favoured weapon is the bastard sword.

Note also that some gods have as a Favoured Weapon a group of related weapons (Set for example has short spear, half spear or long spear). I think that you pick one in those cases.

[bean illus]

Per page 32 of the Player's Handbook:

This is why you can't, for example, have a human Cleric of Ehlonna.


Y

But wait, CW says humans can worship any deity in the warrior pantheon. Also that dwarves may worship Altura, but also by class and alignment, whis says basically "any". This is sorta true for the other races also.

Is this just a quirk of the warrior pantheon?

What race is Altura? Do all deities have a "race"?


IIRC, sourcebooks are contradictory in that regard. I personally ignore rules for racial worship restrictions.

The problem is that the description of deities in the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer includes an entree Weapons that lists which weapons the worshippers commonly use, without noting which weapon is the favoured weapon. The Living Greyhawk Deities document remedies that by splitting the entree into Favoured Weapon and Other Preferred Weapons. By that document, Mayaheine's favoured weapon is the bastard sword.

Note also that some gods have as a Favoured Weapon a group of related weapons (Set for example has short spear, half spear or long spear). I think that you pick one in those cases.

Thx

To me it seems obvious that Orcs hate elves oh, and elves hate Orcs. In fact, elves are snotty and think they're better than everybody, and besides you're not supposed to get the human bonus feet, and the PBS, and the relic/etc. Dwarves are ... well you know.

But i think that they are clearly bypassing that for the warrior pantheon. I'm not certain what race they are implying those deity's are oh, but they obviously are accepting followers from multiple races. Under the cleric heading oh, they could have easily wrote "By race", but didn't.

I would allow it in the warrior pantheon, but also on a case by case basis. Fharlanghn for example is god of roads; is there a god of roads and travel for any other race? Why would Fharlanghn deny clerics of his portfolio that have nowhere else to go?

I think i understand it enough.

[Tzardok]

I'm pretty sure that even in the books that are the most "hardline" enforcing racial religion they make exceptions for human deities. Essentially, humans don't have gods on their own, they just use the ones that are "raceless".

[afroakuma]

Some races have few deity choices. Can a cleric worship a deity of another (assumingly non-oppossed) race?

Unless specified in the description of that deity, no - racial deities only provide spells to clerics of the race of which they are a patron. As always, this rule is ripe for weird one-off exceptions, which are plentiful, and it's worth noting that nonracial deities accept worshippers and clerics of any race (unless otherwise specified).


Altua is listed with the domains Glory, and War, but i can't find the reference/source. Is it true?

Looks like Glory was a typo, should be Good. She does have War.


Mayaheine has favored weapon as: bastard sword, mace, longbow. What's that about? Choose one? Get 3?

Her favored weapon is the bastard sword. For any effects involving a deity's favored weapon, that's the one. The others are "preferred weapons," basically the equivalent of saying "if you follow me and aren't one for swinging around a bastard sword, these are also basically acceptable armaments of the faithful."


I can't seem to find much about Knights of the Silver Flame. Who are they? Can they be used generic, or are they too tangled up in Eberron (which i don't have).

They're pretty darn Eberron-y.


I'm pretty sure that even in the books that are the most "hardline" enforcing racial religion they make exceptions for human deities. Essentially, humans don't have gods on their own, they just use the ones that are "raceless".

Ahh the virtues of having no creator deity.

[Thurbane]

Per page 32 of the Player's Handbook:

That always struck me as a bit of a dumb rule.

PCs are supposed to be special snowflakes and exceptions to the norm, that's why you have hoards of good Drow etc.

Imagine a Human or other race raised by Dwarves - why would a Dwarven god not accept him as a Cleric? Is there some kind of formal set of rules the gods follow not to poach each other's races? As stated, they are allowed to be followers, just not Clerics - so the god is still gaining power from their belief, and their soul would eventually go to that deities plane, right?

Also, the stupid RAW of this is I don't think it applies to Favored Soul, which is fluffed as being even more connected to their deity in some ways than Clerics are.

Just occurred to me: how does this affect Dragon deities like Bahamut and Tiamat? They have dragons listed among their typical followers, yet modules and other books are chock-full of non-dragon Clerics of these deities.

I'm starting to think this is one of those rules that should just be swept under the rug along with multiclassing XP penalties and the like.

[bean illus]

Ok, how do i know if a deity is "raceless"?
Unless it specifically states that it is god of xxx race, then it's raceless?


That always struck me as a bit of a dumb rule.

PCs are supposed to be special snowflakes and exceptions to the norm, that's why you have hoards of good Drow etc.

Imagine a Human or other race raised by Dwarves - why would a Dwarven god not accept him as a Cleric? Is there some kind of formal set of rules the gods follow not to poach each other's races? As stated, they are allowed to be followers, just not Clerics - so the god is still gaining power from their belief, and their soul would eventually go to that deities plane, right?

Also, the stupid RAW of this is I don't think it applies to Favored Soul, which is fluffed as being even more connected to their deity in some ways than Clerics are.

Just occurred to me: how does this affect Dragon deities like Bahamut and Tiamat? They have dragons listed among their typical followers, yet modules and other books are chock-full of non-dragon Clerics of these deities.

I'm starting to think this is one of those rules that should just be swept under the rug along with multiclassing XP penalties and the like.

The more I think of it, the more I understand both sides. You're right, a human could be raised what's the Dwarfs for any number of storyline plots. At the same time, it does create a human Archer of Ehlonna welding a relic, or human Ordained Champion of Corellon Laurethian, or whatever.

... but, isn't that almost exactly what Aragorn is? A human with an elven relic, and gods?

Wouldn't both of those characters be fine, and fun to play?

And there's a feat for that. Human Heritage, and Half Human variant are options that could be discussed with your table, and applied to the races in question.

I suppose i would say yes to almost anything under that circumstance. Pay the human feat, for whatever non-genetic bonuses you receive from the other race, or something like that.

[Telonius]

That always struck me as a bit of a dumb rule.

PCs are supposed to be special snowflakes and exceptions to the norm, that's why you have hoards of good Drow etc.

Imagine a Human or other race raised by Dwarves - why would a Dwarven god not accept him as a Cleric? Is there some kind of formal set of rules the gods follow not to poach each other's races? As stated, they are allowed to be followers, just not Clerics - so the god is still gaining power from their belief, and their soul would eventually go to that deities plane, right?

Also, the stupid RAW of this is I don't think it applies to Favored Soul, which is fluffed as being even more connected to their deity in some ways than Clerics are.

Just occurred to me: how does this affect Dragon deities like Bahamut and Tiamat? They have dragons listed among their typical followers, yet modules and other books are chock-full of non-dragon Clerics of these deities.

I'm starting to think this is one of those rules that should just be swept under the rug along with multiclassing XP penalties and the like.

The original thinking probably went something along the lines of, "It's not that those gods can't grant that power to non-[race] individuals, it's that they don't." For a mortal, getting spells from a god is supposed to be a pretty big deal. Not just anybody who works at the temple can do it. And it does require a certain amount of trust from the deity that the person isn't going to abuse the power they're given.

That said, not every setting is going to have gods that care that much, and I think it's become less and less likely over the years that people are going to be playing in the sort of setting that does. And if it does, it's probably a situation best handled case-by-case. If your human wants to be a Cleric of Moradin, he ought to have a really good reason for that in the character background. (Raised by dwarves, taken in by the temple at birth, owes a Cleric his life, something like that). Requiring something like Stoneblessed might be a bit over-the-top, but if the gods care, that might be what you need to do.

If your setting has gods that don't care so much, cast Defenestrating Sphere on that rule.

[Luccan]

Many deities don't have race based cleric requirements. There's so only 1 deity I can think of in 3.5 that is specifically for humans, so if a deity's entry doesn't list them as a racial god you're good

[Thurbane]

Many deities don't have race based cleric requirements. There's so only 1 deity I can think of in 3.5 that is specifically for humans, so if a deity's entry doesn't list them as a racial god you're good

Unfortunately the rule is worded a bit more broadly than this:


If the typical worshipers of a deity include the members of a race, a cleric must be of the indicated race to choose that deity as his own. (The god may have occasional worshipers of other races, but not clerics.)


...so according to this (stupid) rule, they don't need to be called out specifically as a racial deity - the rule treats any gods whose typical worshipers include a specific race as a "racial deity".

[Luccan]

Unfortunately the rule is worded a bit more broadly than this:




...so according to this (stupid) rule, they don't need to be called out specifically as a racial deity - the rule treats any gods whose typical worshipers include a specific race as a "racial deity".

Huh. Well that's RAW I suppose. Definitely stupid. Can't say I have a ton of experience playing clerics in 3.5, is this one of those things most tables mostly ignore?

[Kuulvheysoon]

This really makes me wonder if Stoneblessed and Racial Emulation get around that. It sounds like it would, which is kinda silly.

[Prime32]

I can't seem to find much about Knights of the Silver Flame. Who are they? Can they be used generic, or are they too tangled up in Eberron (which i don't have).
Cleric rules in Eberron are more loose than most settings. Most religions don't have any real proof of their deity's existence (or they're not based on a deity, but a set of precepts). Cleric powers in the setting come from their own faith - this means that they can be of any alignment, and splinter sects with different domains aren't unusual (paladins still need to be genuinely heroic though). Actual clerics are less common, with temples mostly being attended by members of the adept NPC class (who receive a single domain in this setting).

And then we have the overlords, a group of a few dozen apocalyptically-powerful demons which embody specific concepts, and include beings that are classified as gods in other settings (e.g. Tiamat). They once ruled the world, until a large number of dragons + the entire couatl race sacrificed themselves to convert their souls into a powerful binding spell.

In the age of mortals, legends tell of a human paladin (Tira Miron) who fought alongside a strange feathered serpent in order to slay a demon. Their battle ended with the three being bound together and a torrent of silver fire erupting from their location. This is the origin of the modern Church of the Silver Flame (though not the first; cults in a remote region to a force of good called "The Binding Flame" have recently been discovered). Every so often, a person hears Tira's voice and is chosen to become The Keeper of the Flame - a powerful cleric who's basically their Pope, complete with a Vatican equivalent that's built around the Flame's location. Adherents of the faith often seek to become one with the Flame in death, believing that their souls can strengthen it (it helps that the standard Eberron afterlife isn't a paradise, but a dreary wasteland where you slowly fade away to nothing). However, sometimes another voice comes from the Flame impersonating Tira, whispering to worshippers and persuading them to commit atrocities in the name of the greater good...

Also relevant here is that Eberron has rules for worshipping a pantheon rather than a singular deity, which are presented as something that can be used in other settings. You pool their domains, and use the favored weapon of whichever member of the pantheon is most associated with combat.

[hamishspence]

Per page 32 of the Player's Handbook:


If the typical worshipers of a deity include the members of a race, a cleric must be of the indicated race to choose that deity as his own. (The god may have occasional worshipers of other races, but not clerics.)


This is why you can't, for example, have a human Cleric of Ehlonna.Given that Ehlonna has four races "elves, gnomes, half-elves, halflings" as "typical worshippers" I think the intent is less "only members of those four races can be clerics" and more "an unusually high proportion of those races are members." She's not in a racial pantheon the way the "gnome deities" and "elf deities" are, after all.


It's like with Gond - "Worshippers - Blacksmiths, crafters, engineers, gnomes, inventors, Lantanese, woodworkers" - that doesn't mean only gnomes, either from Lantan, or gnomes not from Lantan, can be clerics of him - it means that everyone from Lantan, gnomes and nongnomes alike, can be clerics of him, as well as all the other beings on the list.


Similar issues arise with the various pantheons in Deities and Demigods. Olympian pantheon has Artemis's worshippers include elves and halflings - but that doesn't mean only halflings and elves can be clerics of Artemis. Aphrodite's listed worshippers include elves - but that doesn't mean there are no nonelf clerics of Aphrodite.

Tiamat's listed worshippers are "evil dragons" and "conquerors" - but there are explicitly, in splatbooks and novels, human clerics of Tiamat.