Pathfinder Bards - Bardic Performances + Versatile Performance rules and optimization

[arkol]

Ok so I never actually played bards but I had a general idea how they worked.

However more recently started to look a them, read a few guides and turns out they are quite complex is terms of builds.

First off (and I'm checking the rules on alone https://www.d20pfsrd.com/)


Each bardic performance has audible components, visual components, or both.

This seemed fairly obvious at first, but the links for the "audible" components and "visual" components take me to the generic magic components section which I dont think really apply here. Not every audible component is verbal and not every visual component is somantic, at least not in the same way of "you need a free hand" like spells do.

Where things get tricky is in the "countersong" description it mentions that the check MUST be one of the following: keyboard, percussion, wind, string, or sing and specifies that this performance is audible. On the Distraction performance is specifies that it must be act, comedy, dance, or oratory and it is visual.

Given that all other performances don't specify a perform skill to use, but specify that they are either visual, audible, both or a choice of either one by the bard does that mean a bard needs to invest specifically in more than one perform skill in order to cover all possible performances? What about the performances that need both audible and visual. Do I need to both Sing and Act, or play a Wind Instrument and dance at the same time for it to take effect? If so doesn't that mean that many combinations are impossible?


Then the second part of the question, assuming my conclusions above are correct.

At level 2 versatile performance comes into play. Given that I am being forced to choose 2 form skills (at least) to use all bardic performances, I want to make sure I do get the best bang for my buck with it.

However if you consider the 4 main "face" skills (bluff, diplomacy, intimidate and sense motive) if you want all of them with only 2 perform skills you're stuck with one of two choices: Comedy and Oratory (both "visual" on my understanding above) or Keyboards and Sing (both "audibles").

I this by design so that you're "forced" to go with another skill instead? Is my understanding completely wrong? Help me understand how bards work! :P

[Psyren]

1) Not all the links in the PFSRD are "official", it is actually a fansite. Their software often links to the first or more common page that matches a particular word, whether or not that word matches the context where it is being used in that entry. Most of the time this works out, but sometimes you'll get erroneous linkages like what you're seeing here with bardic performance. The official PRD is Archives of Nethys (https://aonprd.com/)

2) You're overthinking the audible/visual thing a tad. If a specific variety of Perform isn't specified for a Bardic Performance, any of them will work. Those clauses are there so that you know that the target needs to see and hear you. As an example, for Fascinate think of a snake charmer - yeah the primary "performance" is the wind instrument they're playing (audible), but they're also swaying around and getting the serpent to lock eyes on them and copy their movements (visual.) In game terms, they don't need to invest in both Dance and Wind in order for that ability to function, rather it's letting you know that a target that can't see or hear you (e.g. blind or in a silence effect) or both will be immune to it.

3) For Versatile Performance, assuming there aren't specific performances your concept requires, you usually want to go for ones that will replace skills you won't be as good at. Sing is generally a strong choice since you can substitute it for Sense Motive - this lets you replace your Wis which is likely to not be very high, and also makes you more useful as the group's face character since all the other face skills depend on Cha. In general though, just go for the perform skills you want and avoid investing in the skills associated with them, freeing those points up to be spent on skills you can't substitute in this way.

[Arkhios]

In all honesty, Versatile Performance is so poorly designed feature you'd be far better off taking an archetype that trades it away.

[arkol]

I like the idea on principle, bu the execution is far for flawless.

Any suggestions on a good archetype that trades it away?

[Psyren]

I don't see what's so bad about it. Not only does investing in each perform skill get you 2 others, it lets you use your entire bonus for those checks - including Cha, which helps make you less MAD.

As for archetypes that swap it out, Magician is my personal favorite (Expanded Repertoire is very, very good) but there are a great many others.

[Arkhios]

I don't see what's so bad about it. Not only does investing in each perform skill get you 2 others, it lets you use your entire bonus for those checks - including Cha, which helps make you less MAD.

The issue that many, not only myself, have with it, is the excessive overlapping in skill substitutions and the fact that eventually you run out of differing options.

[Psyren]

The issue that many, not only myself, have with it, is the excessive overlapping in skill substitutions and the fact that eventually you run out of differing options.

I'd say you're not thinking about it correctly. It's a bonus extra; the goal is not for you to replace every single skill on your list with a Perform check, nor is it to avoid any and all overlap between the covered skills. At the end of the day, you're still a 6+Int skill class with a huge passive buff to all your Knowledge checks, you have plenty of skills already. Rather, the goal behind it is to reward you for investing in more than one perform skill, so you can have a bard who (say) sings and plays the lute without feeling like you're wasting multiple redundant ranks in Perform.

In the case of a Bard who sings and plays a stringed instrument for example, investing in those two skills effectively means you're maxing out four - you get max Perform for your class abilities, max Bluff, max Diplomacy, and max Sense Motive. (The last one is even better since you're moving your bonus from a dump stat - Wis - to a key stat, Cha.)

Now, if your concept involves two performance skills that have no overlap at all - like Sing and Dance - great! You've now maxed out 5 skills for the price of 2, and you have one you can use when you want to be quiet and one you can use when you're invisible besides. But getting 4 or even 3 skills for the price of 2 is still a win.

[Arkhios]

I'd say you're not thinking about it correctly. It's a bonus extra; the goal is not for you to replace every single skill on your list with a Perform check, nor is it to avoid any and all overlap between the covered skills. At the end of the day, you're still a 6+Int skill class with a huge passive buff to all your Knowledge checks, you have plenty of skills already. Rather, the goal behind it is to reward you for investing in more than one perform skill, so you can have a bard who (say) sings and plays the lute without feeling like you're wasting multiple redundant ranks in Perform.

In the case of a Bard who sings and plays a stringed instrument for example, investing in those two skills effectively means you're maxing out four - you get max Perform for your class abilities, max Bluff, max Diplomacy, and max Sense Motive. (The last one is even better since you're moving your bonus from a dump stat - Wis - to a key stat, Cha.)

Now, if your concept involves two performance skills that have no overlap at all - like Sing and Dance - great! You've now maxed out 5 skills for the price of 2, and you have one you can use when you want to be quiet and one you can use when you're invisible besides. But getting 4 or even 3 skills for the price of 2 is still a win.

Obviously, it's not meant to replace every single skill. I did not say that, did I?

My point is that there is just too much overlap in my opinion. The big problem, however is the frequency and amount of versatile performances you get, because meaningful choices decrease the further you go into bard.

If only you'd get new options a bit less frequently, I'd be okay with it, myself.

[Psyren]

Obviously, it's not meant to replace every single skill. I did not say that, did I?

My point is that there is just too much overlap in my opinion. The big problem, however is the frequency and amount of versatile performances you get, because meaningful choices decrease the further you go into bard.

If only you'd get new options a bit less frequently, I'd be okay with it, myself.

So you'd like it better if.. there were less of it? What? :smallconfused:

[Arkhios]

So you'd like it better if.. there were less of it? What? :smallconfused:

That's it, yes. You don't have to understand if you don't even want to try. Sometimes less is more.

It bugs me that, if I already got all the meaningful choices several levels ago, going forward I'm still forced to choose new ones, but for what?
I get that it may have been made so to emphasize roleplaying, but how does it not emphasize roleplaying if you have to choose less?
Having less similarities between different bards means that they're more unique individually and have more significant identities.

[Psyren]

You don't have to understand if you don't even want to try.

Done and done.

[Kitsuneymg]

The main issues I have with VP

- does skill focus on perform carry over? I think so. Does skill focus on bluff still apply if perform is a bluff? There’s an old forum post that says yes to 2 but not 1. What about things like pageant of the peacock? Or glibness?
- it doesn’t retrain ranks.

As for choices, they added a lot more. Notably weapon focus and adding UMD to an existing versatile performance.

Because it doesn’t retrain, I can’t see ever planning on more than 2 and 6 being part of a character. If it retrained skill ranks, then at least you’d not feel bad wasting your ranks until 6 or 10.

I do wish there were more alternate options for VP. But I find that adding UMD and grabbing weapon focus leaves only the 18ths level one open. And I hardly ever get to play at 18 anyway.

[Draconi Redfir]

The main issues I have with VP

- does skill focus on perform carry over? I think so. Does skill focus on bluff still apply if perform is a bluff? There’s an old forum post that says yes to 2 but not 1. What about things like pageant of the peacock? Or glibness?[/spoiler]

Personally i went with the idea that anything that boosts bluff works fine, even if your bluff roll is based on sing. You're effectively just wiping your Bluff skills and modifiers to Zero, copying your Sing total bonus, putting that into the Bluff total bonus, and then applying things like skill focus, familiars, and glibness afterwards.

- it doesn’t retrain ranks.

Personally I'd say do it anyways as i doubt anyone would oppose. Though you can always ask your DM for permission to do so if you prefer.



There are a few options for alternative Versatile Performance at level 6 if you don't want to get just another boost in one skill though.

[quote]Expanded Versatility (Ex): The bard chooses one Perform skill that he has already selected with versatile performance. He adds one of the following skills to the list of skills that are associated with the chosen Perform skill for the purpose of the versatile performance ability: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Sense Motive, or Use Magic Device. This option can be selected multiple times, but no skill can be associated with the same Perform skill more than once.

So even though Perform (Act) only gives Bluff and Disguise, you can use this to also allow you to use your Act bonus for something like Escape Artist.


Martial Performance (Ex): The bard chooses one weapon belonging to a fighter weapon group that is associated with a Perform skill he has selected with versatile performance (see below). He gains proficiency with this weapon. If the bard is already proficient with this weapon or later becomes proficient with it, he gains Weapon Focus with that weapon as a bonus feat instead. In addition, the bard’s effective fighter level is equal to 1/2 his bard level for the purpose of qualifying for feats that specifically select weapons from those Perform skills’ associated fighter weapon groups. The types of Perform skills and their associated fighter weapon groups are: Act (close, double), Comedy (flails, thrown), Dance (monk, spears), Keyboard Instruments (hammers, siege engines), Oratory (heavy blades, light blades), Percussion (close, hammers), Sing (close, natural), String (axes, bows), and Wind (monk, thrown).
So if you're the type to use a weapon, you can get better at that weapon.


Masterpiece: The bard gains a bardic masterpiece, as if he were giving up a feat to learn it. He must meet the masterpiece’s prerequisites, and the masterpiece must list ranks in a Perform skill that the bard has chosen with versatile performance as a prerequisite. This option can be selected multiple times.

This one is really handy. I took Clamor of the Heavens for my Bard, and it made serval Devil or Undead-based fights a cakewalk. AND you don't need to give up the feat for it since you're giving up the Skill for Versatile Performance!

[gijoemike]

The main issues I have with VP

- does skill focus on perform carry over? I think so. Does skill focus on bluff still apply if perform is a bluff? There’s an old forum post that says yes to 2 but not 1. What about things like pageant of the peacock? Or glibness?
- it doesn’t retrain ranks.

As for choices, they added a lot more. Notably weapon focus and adding UMD to an existing versatile performance.

Because it doesn’t retrain, I can’t see ever planning on more than 2 and 6 being part of a character. If it retrained skill ranks, then at least you’d not feel bad wasting your ranks until 6 or 10.

I do wish there were more alternate options for VP. But I find that adding UMD and grabbing weapon focus leaves only the 18ths level one open. And I hardly ever get to play at 18 anyway.

So, hilarious thing, Versatile Performance actually does let the character do a retrain of the skills. Finding this in the rules is stupid. As such many GM's won't use it.

Look under the variant multiclassing rules. Those are the trade away class abilities/feat at 1, 6, 12, 18 for a tiny effect/ability of a different class. So as an example a PC is a ranger 20, the character could have 4 abilities from sorcerer and have 4 less feats. It is almost universally considered TERRIBLE. But if you go to Fighter, and look at the rules to variant multiclass to Bard, you will see Fighters get Versatile Performance. Under that entry it explains that you retrain all the skill points when you pick up Versatile Performance.

Given you had to look under fighter's entry under a late edition of multiclass rules concerning a bard ability, the entry under VM fighter it makes some sense. A person takes knowledge of diplomacy, bluff and rolls that into the ability to give a great speech, or to act.

It has always bugged me that to use Versatile Performance one has to make a lvl 1 bard without any face skiils and at level 2 becomes king supreme of face skills without having to change skill lineup. But after reading the entry under fighter. That doesn't have to happen anymore.

[Psyren]

I think it's not a big deal to "waste" a single skill rank at level 1 if you want to invest in face skills through VP before VP comes online. And if that hanging chad from level 1 bothers you, retrain it.

I do love the ability to trade a new versatile performance for an associated Masterpiece instead.

[Arkhios]

So, hilarious thing, Versatile Performance actually does let the character do a retrain of the skills. Finding this in the rules is stupid. As such many GM's won't use it.

No, it really doesn't. Standard bard's Versatile Performance doesn't say a word about retraining those ranks you've spent into skills to be substituted. This is true, even after Pathfinder Unchained was released (the book where variant multiclassing was introduced), so there has been no errata on this, either. Standard VP's wording is still valid.

Variant Multiclassing is an entirely different case, and those rules do not apply to a single-classed bard's features. They apply only in the case of using variant bard multiclass.
Variant Multiclassing doesn't replace the standard multiclassing either; they're just not intended to be used simultaneously (technically, there's nothing to prevent you from doing so, RAW, but it can get wonky).

As written, Variant Multiclassing is a variant rule.