OOTS #1243 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Guancyto]

Whaaaat? One of the Order of the Stick thinking on her feet?

Well, not on her feet on her feet...

[Shale]

Whaaaat? One of the Order of the Stick thinking on her feet?

Well, not on her feet on her feet...

On, and/or with, her feet.

[Teioh]

Good to see a Rogue carrying the team in a fight. Unusual for high levels, but no one better to take 'Mom' down a peg

[Matt620]

A lovely, clever twist that made use of Haley's skills. And of course, since Serini is talking to the beholder, tracking by sound negates the invisibility.

[UnintensifiedFa]

Okay not gonna lie, that was pretty awesome. Was getting worried that the order was starting to look a tad bit incompetent (especially after all they’ve done so far), but I guess they were just caught off guard.

[luagha]

+1 for Uncanny Dodgeball. I want to play!

[Ruck]

The fight had to turn eventually, but I certainly didn't see how. Very clever on Haley's part to turn Sunny's powers against them.

Also we get a little more window into how far Sunny is willing to go-- and anything that could kill a member of the Order is seemingly off the table.

[masonwheeler]

With V being a traditional high-Int wizard, and Roy being a non-traditional really smart fighter, it's all too easy to lose sight of just how smart Haley is, until something like this or #327 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html) comes along and reminds you.

[Fyraltari]

So, can Sunny's telekinesis catch them both? Because if they are high enough for stone to shatter on impact...

[Coyote0715]

How many turns is that? What is everyone else doing?

[LtPowers]

The comic title scared me but the final panel made me cheer.

Also: Good thing speaking is a free action or this would have taken several rounds.


Powers &8^]

[Mastikator]

I think all in all a beholder's anti magic field would go a long way to level the playing field between Team Evil and Order of the Stick. All it takes now is to convince Serini to ally up and kill Xykon. Maybe then Redcloak will be forced to actually consider the deal (which works in his favor TBH, he gets everything he says he wants). Then the Dark One could also get his goal achieved the way he originally wanted it. The issue comes down to trust, trusting a side that has previously betrayed you.

[HeeJay]

I've always scoffed at people who call themselves "dog moms".

But a beholder mom - now that's cool!

[Liquor Box]

Also we get a little more window into how far Sunny is willing to go-- and anything that could kill a member of the Order is seemingly off the table.

Although Serini is clearly prepared to go further, and that is not off the table.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also we get a little more window into how far Sunny is willing to go-- and anything that could kill a member of the Order is seemingly off the table. *We have glue at home* from Serini got me chortling. Sunny's Rules of Engagement appear to be "disable/capture, not kill" and he's doing a fine job of adhering to them. Props to Sunny.

With V being a traditional high-Int wizard, and Roy being a non-traditional really smart fighter, it's all too easy to lose sight of just how smart Haley is, until something like this or #327 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html) comes along and reminds you. Yeah. Haley being smart is a consistent theme.

Also: Good thing speaking is a free action or this would have taken several rounds. True.

As to this strip: awesome high level rogue is awesome. :smallsmile: Go Haley Go! :smallsmile:
If you're gonna rogue, don't take half measures: rogue out!

1. Keep talking, Mom (delivered sotto voce)
2. Grab high bar bow and swing acrobatically.
3. Boots to the head delivered to Serini.

Score: (which takes into account degree of difficulty)

9.9 From the Swedish judge
9.8 from the Russian judge.
10.0 from the Brazilian judge.

[Gwynfrid]

Although Serini is clearly prepared to go further, and that is not off the table.

Good point. Interesting to see that the beholder not only is the sidekick in this team, but he's the gentler one.

Also - awesome, awesome comic with superb creative thinking on Haley's (and the author's) part.

[hamishspence]

Haley's awesomeness is really on show here.

[Crusher]

Kick some ass, Haley!

I have a feeling Serini isn't out of tricks yet, though.

[El Dorado]

Very cool to see a high level rogue do their thing.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I think all in all a beholder's anti magic field would go a long way to level the playing field between Team Evil and Order of the Stick. All it takes now is to convince Serini to ally up and kill Xykon. Maybe then Redcloak will be forced to actually consider the deal (which works in his favor TBH, he gets everything he says he wants). Then the Dark One could also get his goal achieved the way he originally wanted it. The issue comes down to trust, trusting a side that has previously betrayed you.

Epic spells can bypass antimagic‚ so Superb Dispelling might be able to just disable Sunny's eye (the printed Superb Dispelling can't do that‚ but you never know with epic spells). And even without that‚ if TE isn't trapped in a room where the eye can cover everything‚ Xykon could just step out of the field and Blackfire the hell out of Sunny. He won't survive for long‚ and there's no troll blood available in a fight.

[Ninja Dragon]

What I was expecting: the Order use their turns to undo all the status effects then hopefully pass their saves next round and then begin the comeback.

What I was not expecting: Haley solos the encounter.

[Liquor Box]

With V being a traditional high-Int wizard, and Roy being a non-traditional really smart fighter, it's all too easy to lose sight of just how smart Haley is, until something like this or #327 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html) comes along and reminds you.

The definitive guide to character inteeligence:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html

[Peelee]

Serini off the eye tyrant is gonna be a gamechanger, I'd wager.

[pearl jam]

So, can Sunny's telekinesis catch them both? Because if they are high enough for stone to shatter on impact...

I think this is likely a case where D&D falling/hit point rules make them less vulnerable than rocks to falling up to a point somewhere between the height they are at in the cave and however high Roy was when he fell off the dragon. :smallbiggrin:

[Ruck]

Although Serini is clearly prepared to go further, and that is not off the table.

I think she's probably going to find that much more difficult outnumbered from ground level than she would have riding an Eye Tyrant in the air.

[Liquor Box]

Very cool to see a high level rogue do their thing.

Two high level rogues

[Peelee]

So, can Sunny's telekinesis catch them both? Because if they are high enough for stone to shatter on impact...

They'll live. High level characters are tougher than stone.

I think this is likely a case where D&D falling/hit point rules make them less vulnerable than rocks to falling up to a point somewhere between the height they are at in the cave and however high Roy was when he fell off the dragon. :smallbiggrin:

Roy had just eaten a meteor swarm as well.

[ShadowSandbag]

So, can Sunny's telekinesis catch them both? Because if they are high enough for stone to shatter on impact...

Haley should be able to get the Fly spell back up from the wand now that she's outside of the Anti-Magic Field.
Besides, not like fall damage has ever really hurt someone. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)

[Peelee]

Besides, not like fall damage has ever really hurt someone. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)

Haley has not been Meteor Swarm'd in the face (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html).

[Xihirli]

And a finger of death.

[Crusher]

Haley has not been Meteor Swarm'd in the face (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html).

Though it might not have mattered if she had been, with Evasion and all.

[drazen]

Haley also had a great tumble in Xykon's throne room. If she's not petrified, she can apparently make quite a landing.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The loyalty that Sunny shows Serini is an important quality in an ally.

So is thinking on your feet. He needs to work on that.



So, can Sunny's telekinesis catch them both? Because if they are high enough for stone to shatter on impact...
There might be some shenanigans available (e.g. telekinesing a net and grabbing both with it), but otherwise, Sunny only has one TK eye.

On the other hand, if Serini flew around like that without a contingency plan for if she fell, she wouldn't have lived this long.



What I was not expecting: Haley solos the encounter.
To be fair, the encounter isn't over. Serini probably has enough hit points to stay conscious after hitting the ground, and Sunny's definitely still in the fight. I expect her allies to start joining her in the next few rounds.

[UnintensifiedFa]

With V being a traditional high-Int wizard, and Roy being a non-traditional really smart fighter, it's all too easy to lose sight of just how smart Haley is, until something like this or #327 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html) comes along and reminds you.

I’d like to imagine the entire order (save maybe Elan but even then), is pretty experienced at this whole adventuring thing and knows how to use their tools to their advantage. After all, they are a DnD party, who are always known for craftiness and creative solutions.

[skim172]

So, can Sunny's telekinesis catch them both? Because if they are high enough for stone to shatter on impact...

No worries. There's always the good, ol' Cleric's Feather Fall (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html).

Healers - So You'll Never Have to Learn From Your Mistakes.™

[Liquor Box]

So, can Sunny's telekinesis catch them both? Because if they are high enough for stone to shatter on impact...

From 1241 it appears that Serini and the beholder are within 30 feet of the ground, which is consistent with Serini presumably wanting to stay within her sneak attack range.

Falling damage from 30 feet is 2 to 12 damage, while Hayley should have 16 to 160 hit points. Serini could possibly have fewer than Hayley, but I'd say it would be very unlikely for her to die.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1241.html

[Shining Wrath]

That, friends, is Haley's "I am very tired of your {scrubbed}" face. Serini's overconfidence led to her continuing to yack even after Haley whispered "Just keep talking, "mom"". Or maybe she wasn't listening - again, overconfidence.

Serini was willing to kill Haley. Score one for her being a little less than good aligned. I'm not sure glue works on a shattered statue - at least not well enough for "stone to flesh" to fix things. You can't miss any pieces, after all. So now Haley is going to be engaged in a one-on-one duel with a desperate epic level rogue who is invisible and thus gets surprise every round. Not so good, even if it only lasts one round. We're going to be lucky if Haley doesn't need a resurrection.

I half expect Sunny to spin to look at "Mom" with the central eye and turn off her invisibility, though, Sunny is not the brightest sun in the sky.

[Psyren]

That Adamantine Dagger continues to pay dividends I see!

[Yendor]

The loyalty that Sunny shows Serini is an important quality in an ally.

So is thinking on your feet. He needs to work on that.

What feet? :smalltongue:

Almost time for Serini to be unmasked. Then maybe we can get some communication going.

[thorr-kan]

<Blackwing>
Rogue fight! Rogue fight!
</Blackwing>

[Metastachydium]

In your smug face, Serini! (And quite literally for that matter!)

[TuringTest]

"Hands and feet are so overpowered!" envy got me a literal laughing out loud, and I don't get many of those.

Also, for all of you complaining that the order of turn doesn't follow rules, you have Serini free-talking for three panels after finishing her turn action, without doing anything else, while Haley gets her own action. :smallbiggrin:


<Blackwing>
Rogue fight! Rogue fight!
</Blackwing>


Rogue fight!

[Shining Wrath]

The loyalty that Sunny shows Serini is an important quality in an ally.

So is thinking on your feet. He needs to work on that.



There might be some shenanigans available (e.g. telekinesing a net and grabbing both with it), but otherwise, Sunny only has one TK eye.

On the other hand, if Serini flew around like that without a contingency plan for if she fell, she wouldn't have lived this long.



To be fair, the encounter isn't over. Serini probably has enough hit points to stay conscious after hitting the ground, and Sunny's definitely still in the fight. I expect her allies to start joining her in the next few rounds.

Eye Tyrants think on their levitation magic, lacking feet.

We see Serini losing her crossbow in the last panel. That means she will have to draw swords to fight. Anyone want to guess what sort of poison she has on her swords? Unless, of course, she was so overconfident she didn't bother because her rain of crossbow bolts was guaranteed to end the battle.

[danielxcutter]

Okay not gonna lie, that was pretty awesome. Was getting worried that the order was starting to look a tad bit incompetent (especially after all they’ve done so far), but I guess they were just caught off guard.

Oh, indeed. The earlier half of this fight was so frustrating for me, you have no idea.


So, can Sunny's telekinesis catch them both? Because if they are high enough for stone to shatter on impact...

Eh, as much as it was an early-comic joke, physics are pretty inconsistent in this setting. Haley would probably have less hit points if she was petrified.


I think all in all a beholder's anti magic field would go a long way to level the playing field between Team Evil and Order of the Stick. All it takes now is to convince Serini to ally up and kill Xykon. Maybe then Redcloak will be forced to actually consider the deal (which works in his favor TBH, he gets everything he says he wants). Then the Dark One could also get his goal achieved the way he originally wanted it. The issue comes down to trust, trusting a side that has previously betrayed you.

I very much doubt it'll be that easy.


What I was expecting: the Order use their turns to undo all the status effects then hopefully pass their saves next round and then begin the comeback.

What I was not expecting: Haley solos the encounter.

She's down. She's not out. But yes, I was more expecting the Order as a whole to be striking back, not Haley being the MVP that much.


And a finger of death.

Eh, Finger of Death's damage is pretty weaksauce.


The loyalty that Sunny shows Serini is an important quality in an ally.

So is thinking on your feet. He needs to work on that.

(*insert joke about Sunny not having feet*)


That, friends, is Haley's "I am very tired of your {scrub the post, scrub the quote}" face. Serini's overconfidence led to her continuing to yack even after Haley whispered "Just keep talking, "mom"". Or maybe she wasn't listening - again, overconfidence.

Serini was willing to kill Haley. Score one for her being a little less than good aligned. I'm not sure glue works on a shattered statue - at least not well enough for "stone to flesh" to fix things. You can't miss any pieces, after all. So now Haley is going to be engaged in a one-on-one duel with a desperate epic level rogue who is invisible and thus gets surprise every round. Not so good, even if it only lasts one round. We're going to be lucky if Haley doesn't need a resurrection.

I half expect Sunny to spin to look at "Mom" with the central eye and turn off her invisibility, though, Sunny is not the brightest sun in the sky.

Serini does think the stakes are high(which they are, just in a different way than she thinks), and there's only so much you can hold back without risking your life or that of your allies. And honestly I don't mind her being Neutral; it's entirely possible to be a perfectly decent person without having an outright Good alignment.

Edit: Also, Sunny's smart enough to use their eyestalks for that.

[Liquor Box]

So now Haley is going to be engaged in a one-on-one duel with a desperate epic level rogue who is invisible and thus gets surprise every round. Not so good, even if it only lasts one round. We're going to be lucky if Haley doesn't need a resurrection.


Minrah is there too, plus anyone who she was able to free from their debuffs.

Also if the beholder turns it anti-magic on the ground now, Serini's invis will be removed. If it turns its anti magic off, then Hayley's can cast fly (and possibly other wand spells) again.

[Mastikator]

Epic spells can bypass antimagic‚ so Superb Dispelling might be able to just disable Sunny's eye (the printed Superb Dispelling can't do that‚ but you never know with epic spells). And even without that‚ if TE isn't trapped in a room where the eye can cover everything‚ Xykon could just step out of the field and Blackfire the hell out of Sunny. He won't survive for long‚ and there's no troll blood available in a fight.

If it takes Xykon 1 turn and one epic level spell slot to stop a beholder's anti magic field, I say beholder well spent. Xykon is an absolutely terrifying monster and delaying him 1 turn is massive

[Trixie_One]

That was significantly more awesome than when a similar move was pulled off against a velociraptor in Jurrasic Park 2.

[Schroeswald]

Hell yeah Haley, showing off why every party needs a rogue. I wonder if this means something about some other member of team evil, I can’t think of any way it could be tho.

[danielxcutter]

If it takes Xykon 1 turn and one epic level spell slot to stop a beholder's anti magic field, I say beholder well spent. Xykon is an absolutely terrifying monster and delaying him 1 turn is massive

It is, but I wouldn't bet a cent on Serini willing to risk Sunny like that.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Love the "Hands and feet are so overpowered" line.

So, can Sunny's telekinesis catch them both? Because if they are high enough for stone to shatter on impact...Depends on the type of stone.

Almost time for Serini to be unmasked.Huh? Are you of the opinion that Serini is Aunt Judy or something?

[Thecommander236]

Rogues have an unfair advantage in Dodgeball. That's why I never play anymore.

[SlashDash]

So we're continuing the tradition of sending Haley against flying opponents? She really needed to take that favored enemy thing...



Other than that, I think this critically shifts things in an interesting way.
Either Sunny uses his eye - which pretty much takes away all of Serini's magic items, her invisibility as well leaving her alone again an entire party - all of which are capable fighters
Regardless I'll assume this option is off the table since it's kind of clear Bloodfeast isn't getting involved (and Belkar will shove him as soon as the anti magic is back)

Or of course, leave the anti magic eye out, which means Serini is invisible, but everyone else have their abilities as well.

What's even more important here, is that Sunny is on his own without getting clear orders. Because I'm assuming Serini isn't going to talk which pretty much spells where she is at the moment.


Of course if I were in her position, I'd rush to either Roy or V and do the classic "Surrender or I slit their throats" thing (even if it is a bluff).


On a side note, I wonder if Haley overheard what Sunny was saying. Hearing that he won't cross the line to stone her to death could help them talk their way out of the fight or at least let them put themselves in more dangerous situations knowing Sunny won't go through with it.

[mucat]

How many turns is that? What is everyone else doing?
Elan and Minrah are getting Roy and V back on their feet, and Belkar is shuffling apathetically after them, awaiting direction.

I imagine that when she hits ground level, Serini will find herself surrounded by a fully-armed and operational Order. Well, a semi-armed, quasi-operational Order, but they've got plenty of practice at making that fill the gap...

[masonwheeler]

Good point. Interesting to see that the beholder not only is the sidekick in this team, but he's the gentler one.

It does not reflect well on Serini when a literal monster is less monstrous than her...

[Gusion]

New comic is up.

I wonder how many of the same people who were complaining about the OOTS being "down and out" are now going to complain about Haley being OP.

(my prediction remains they will ultimately come to a type of draw here that results in them talking)

[danielxcutter]

It does not reflect well on Serini when a literal monster is less monstrous than her...

I think the Giant would disapprove of someone being considered less moral just because they're of a "monstrous" race.

[Ivrytwr]

Haley is awesome.
That's it. All I came here to say.
That and Thanks, Giant!

[danielxcutter]

I wonder how many of the same people who were complaining about the OOTS being "down and out" are now going to complain about Haley being OP.

(my prediction remains they will ultimately come to a type of draw here that results in them talking)

If you're trying to call me out, I'm actually very happy the Order's putting up a good fight now.

[2.5 cats]

So now Haley is going to be engaged in a one-on-one duel with a desperate epic level rogue who is invisible and thus gets surprise every round. Not so good, even if it only lasts one round. We're going to be lucky if Haley doesn't need a resurrection.
Minrah is there too, plus anyone who she was able to free from their debuffs.

Also if the beholder turns it anti-magic on the ground now, Serini's invis will be removed. If it turns its anti magic off, then Hayley's can cast fly (and possibly other wand spells) again.

Serini's invisibility being removed would be, to quote Belkar from OtOoPCs, "about #4 on the list of their problems right now". #1 being a full-size allosaurus.

But yeah, definitely not a one-on-one duel. Elan is up and he's going to help V (probably off-camera and V is already getting up). Minrah is up. Belkar is up too, though I'm not sure how effective he'll be while calmed. Elan's neutralize poison spell can get Roy back into the fight on the following round, too.

[enq]

Go Haley! Woo!

[Peelee]

Oh, indeed. The earlier half of this fight was so frustrating for me, you have no idea.

Without the earlier part the later part wouldn't be as good. If Serini appeared and the Order just cut her down, it would be boring. Now we can see how she poses a great potential danger and is very capable in her abilities. We wouldn't have gotten any of that if the Order just up and won without much hassle. And it would have been boring to boot.

[danielxcutter]

Why do you always equate that opinion of mine with saying they should have cut her down without much hassle? That's not what I meant, it never was.

[Scottzg]

I didn't expect this to be a rogue fight, but i absolutely love it. The balance of who has the advantage changes so fast.

Also, hearts for Sunny. He's a sweetiepie.

[KorvinStarmast]

That Adamantine Dagger continues to pay dividends I see! Aah, I wasn't sure why her magical dagger helped her to climb walls, but now I get it. Thanks! :smallsmile:

"Hands and feet are so overpowered!" envy got me a literal laughing out loud Amusing. :smallsmile:

If it takes Xykon 1 turn and one epic level spell slot to stop a beholder's anti magic field, I say beholder well spent. Xykon is an absolutely terrifying monster and delaying him 1 turn is massive fair point.

On a side note, I wonder if Haley overheard what Sunny was saying. Hearing that he won't cross the line to stone her to death could help them talk their way out of the fight or at least let them put themselves in more dangerous situations knowing Sunny won't go through with it. Rogue, hears things well, and I think she heard that since she muttered "keep talking Mom" due to Serini's inputs.

Without the earlier part the later part wouldn't be as good. If Serini appeared and the Order just cut her down, it would be boring. Yep. Two servings of Momma Starmast's homemade guacamole for you. With home made corn tortilla chips. :smallsmile:

[Carlo]

Haley should be able to get the Fly spell back up from the wand now that she's outside of the Anti-Magic Field.

I'm actually confused as to why Haley even needed a wand to fly. V cast some long-term Fly spell on her at the beginning of the day, and she was still flying as of #1221 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1221.html). If V can fly, why can't Haley?

[Peelee]

Why do you always equate that opinion of mine with saying they should have cut her down without much hassle? That's not what I meant, it never was.

Because you were having an issue with a small part of an incomplete fight and were presenting it as if it was a foregone conclusion. Without that, there is significantly less sense of danger to the Order, we don't get a sense of Serini's power and competency, we don't get a sense of Serini's cleverness with traps and herding, we don't get a lot of what the author clearly wanted to convey. We would simply get another character who can throw a punch and then get punched back. That's not who the Giant wanted us to see. He wanted us to see someone who was capable of nearly taking down the entire party, but also a party who could overcome that by working together and helping each other. Your issues with the earlier comic would have gotten us none of that and the story would have been worse for it.

Sure, I hyperbolize a bit when I don't feel like writing out a whole text block like this, but the bones are still solid.

[Shining Wrath]

Because you were having an issue with a small part of an incomplete fight and were presenting it as if it was a foregone conclusion. Without that, there is significantly less sense of danger to the Order, we don't get a sense of Serini's power and competency, we don't get a sense of Serini's cleverness with traps and herding, we don't get a lot of what the author clearly wanted to convey. We would simply get another character who can throw a punch and then get punched back. That's not who the Giant wanted us to see. He wanted us to see someone who was capable of nearly taking down the entire party, but also a party who could overcome that by working together and helping each other. Your issues with the earlier comic would have gotten us none of that and the story would have been worse for it.

Sure, I hyperbolize a bit when I don't feel like writing out a whole text block like this, but the bones are still solid.

Luke hitting the exhaust on the Death Star is a lot more exciting when the previous guy missed a clean shot and now Darth Vader is closing in for the kill. Overcoming obstacles is what heroes do; establishing that obstacles exist is part of storytelling.

I saw A New Hope in theaters, in 1977. When the Death Star exploded the audience stood up and cheered. We aren't likely to get that reaction to the defeat of Serini, because she's no where near as obnoxious as Tarquin.

[danielxcutter]

I'm actually confused as to why Haley even needed a wand to fly. V cast some long-term Fly spell on her at the beginning of the day, and she was still flying as of #1221 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1221.html). If V can fly, why can't Haley?

There's no such thing except for maybe Z's backported 3.0e Fly and some obscure non-Core spells. Fly lasts long enough for scouting out the place like that, but not long enough to still last after waiting in the tunnel for the ambush. And V uses Overland Flight on themselves; it's got poorer mobility and can't target other people but has an hour/CL duration, much longer than Fly.

Edit:


Luke hitting the exhaust on the Death Star is a lot more exciting when the previous guy missed a clean shot and now Darth Vader is closing in for the kill. Overcoming obstacles is what heroes do; establishing that obstacles exist is part of storytelling.

I saw A New Hope in theaters, in 1977. When the Death Star exploded the audience stood up and cheered. We aren't likely to get that reaction to the defeat of Serini, because she's no where near as obnoxious as Tarquin.

Yeeeess, I get what you mean, and I think I may have overreacted a bit due to personal experiences with imbalanced encounters.

But an anti-magic cone ambush like that was so unfair that there really wasn't a way to get out of it without something completely separate from the mechanics like that - yes I know this isn't an actual game, but it's still using the rules as the basic framework - and the Sunny salvo was incredibly obnoxious because it didn't feel like Serini was being competent(plan B or no), it felt like she got lucky with a Hail Mary and came close to wiping out the entire team.

I'm happy with how the fight is going and even if Serini wins I don't think I'll be complaining unless something really stupid like Kraagor manifesting from thin air and Great Cleaving the entire Order with a single swing happens. And I do mean that literally; I'm sure if that even if something on those lines happen Rich will do it better than how I just described it.

[gatemansgc]

i've been reading so much one piece online that when i saw this was posted i started reading right to left. oof.

"we have glue at home", that's cold.

[chy03001]

It never ceases to amaze me how expressive stick figures can be :-D

[Scottzg]

she's no where near as obnoxious as Tarquin.

In the context of star wars i was confused. Tarkin (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wilhuff_Tarkin) wasn't that obnoxious!



it didn't feel like Serini was being competent(plan B or no), it felt like she got lucky with a Hail Mary and came close to wiping out the entire team.


I think the sunny salvo woulda bothered me a lot more if half the gang didn't throw it off on the very next page. A big part of this battle has been watching Serini be simultaneously OP and in a tenuous situation. The only thing that irked me was that sunny used the most effective spell for each party member.

[Corian]

The only thing that irked me was that sunny used the most effective spell for each party member.

Eye tyrants are smart, and Serini has intelligence on the party which she no doubt imparted in a strategy meeting. So I'm fine with that part. I agree there were a lot of saving throw fails, but heh, it happens, and it does make the reversal more interesting. I expect a few more before this is over.

[MartianInvader]

Whatever happens next, I think Haley wins MVP of this fight.

Followed closely by Bloodfeast.

[Scottzg]

Eye tyrants are smart, and Serini has intelligence on the party which she no doubt imparted in a strategy meeting. So I'm fine with that part.

...and just like that you've undone my only complaint. Nice.

[bunsen_h]

There might be some shenanigans available (e.g. telekinesing a net and grabbing both with it), but otherwise, Sunny only has one TK eye.

Can one have only one Telekinesis (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm) spell going at a time? Does Sunny's use of TK "occupy" that eye indefinitely as long as the effect is going?

[Alexandrite]

Well, that was satisfying. Serini really talks too much, even considering that she has an ally to strategize with.

With her likely having a full adventuring party waiting for her when/if she lands I'd imagine this is probably over. No counting out a rogue's bag of tricks, though.

I think Sunny will be inclined to work out a surrender while separated from Serini. Plenty of room for surprises with him too, though. But I don't think we'll see another eye beam barrage, or if we do the Order will actually make some of their saving throws this time.

[Shining Wrath]

Can one have only one Telekinesis (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm) spell going at a time? Does Sunny's use of TK "occupy" that eye indefinitely as long as the effect is going?

I read "Ongoing Effect" as requiring concentration, so yes, only one thing levitated / held motionless at a time. But maybe shoving is still allowed. Looks like DM fiat.

[Fyraltari]

Okay, I get it, PCs are harder than stone. Thanks.
Stop the barrage, please.


Haley should be able to get the Fly spell back up from the wand now that she's outside of the Anti-Magic Field.

Oh, right.

So now Haley is going to be engaged in a one-on-one duel with a desperate epic level rogue who is invisible and thus gets surprise every round. Not so good, even if it only lasts one round. We're going to be lucky if Haley doesn't need a resurrection.
Wouldn't V be able to dispell the invisibility.

Oh, indeed. The earlier half of this fight was so frustrating for me, you have no idea.
No, I think we have a pretty good idea of how frustrating you found it.



But an anti-magic cone ambush like that was so unfair
Ambushes are unfair by their very nature.

Well, that was satisfying. Serini really talks too much, even considering that she has an ally to strategize with.

Isolation can do that to people.

[pendell]

I expect this to be added to Haley's Crowning Moment of Awesomeness page on Tvtropes. THAT was cool.

We also have more evidence that Sunny is some flavor of good, given their unwillingness to risk Haley's life, though she is technically an enemy at this time.

I say "their" because for the life of me I don't know Sunny's gender, nor whether it's even relevant to a floating eye-thingie.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[BenjaminGeiger]

I didn't realize Haley studied Ti Kwan Leep.

[Doug Lampert]

Okay, I get it, PCs are harder than stone. Thanks.
Stop the barrage, please.

But they're not, they just roll with the blow, (not to mention having divine favor and luck to help them).

People are flexible, stone is rigid, stone is also heavier, this means it's not unreasonable for a fall that a person considers trivial to shatter stone.

Old statues are often missing arms, because they break.

[Dewin Dwl]

What I was expecting: the Order use their turns to undo all the status effects then hopefully pass their saves next round and then begin the comeback.

What I was not expecting: Haley solos the encounter.

By doing it this way, all that status-effect-undo can happen off-screen. Given that we just had a full strip of that, a change of narrative keeps things fresh. We should have one or two Order members back in the game next strip.

[georgie_leech]

So, does this qualify as a Sneak Attack Boot-to-the-face? :smallbiggrin:

[skim172]

I say "their" because for the life of me I don't know Sunny's gender, nor whether it's even relevant to a floating eye-thingie.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Theory: Eye monsters reproduce asexually. Each of those eight tentacle eyes eventually matures and buds off to become a separate eye monster of their own.

What happens is that eventually, one of the tentacle eyes develops its own mouth. And then the eye will just not stop talking, no matter what the main eye keeps telling it to do. And of course, it's just gotta be contrarian about everything, bickering about the most pettiest of issues - until finally the main eye gets fed up, pulls the eye down and bites through the tentacle like its an umbilical cord, severing the mouthy upstart from the main eye like they're evicting a bad roommate. And then you have a new tiny Beholder.

This conveniently explains why Beholders are naturally Evil. Nice, well-mannered, polite, thoughtful, affable tentacle eyes never get annoying enough for the main eye to finally kick them out. Consequently, only the most ill-tempered, most aggravating tentacle eyes ever gain their independence. Their method of reproduction favors being Evil.

[deworde]

Haley there bringing the ROGUE

[KorvinStarmast]

Eye tyrants are smart, and Serini has intelligence on the party which she no doubt imparted in a strategy meeting. So I'm fine with that part. Yep.
Speaking of saving throw fails. DC 14 Wisdom save (fear) last week. Party was seven PCs and six Berserkers who'd been summoned from horn of valhalla. 1 PC and 1 berserker saved, the rest fled from the Eidolon to include the cleric with the 20 wisdom. :smalleek: So I have seen it happen. And the previous session, an Oblex cast Confusion with a DC 18 and All three PCs saved! :smalleek: It can sure be swingy.

Whatever happens next, I think Haley wins MVP of this fight. Gets my vote.

Serini really talks too much, even considering that she has an ally to strategize with. She's old and eccentric, of course she talks too much. (Kind of like my mother in law, and for that matter, me sometimes ...)

So, does this qualify as a Sneak Attack Boot-to-the-face? :smallbiggrin: Belkar will be the judge of that (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0247.html). :smallbiggrin:

[Jason]

Haylee is awesome.
Unarmed Strikes: They're not just for monks anymore!

[Shining Wrath]

Okay, I get it, PCs are harder than stone. Thanks.
<SNIP>

Wouldn't V be able to dispell the invisibility.

<SNIP>

Dispel Magic is available to most casting classes, they just have to (A) have it prepared and (B) be able to cast it - right now both V & Durkon are out of the fight. And the number of extra d6s an Epic Rogue gets for a sneak attack requires Serini to have her own dice factory. At 19th level it's +10d6, so maybe +12d6 or +14d6. For each of three attacks per round. 12d6 averages 42, plus the normal weapon damage (d6 + magic bonus for a short sword plus a whole big batch of adds from epic dexterity - call it another 20 points per hit). If Serini can hit 3 times, 180 points of damage in a single round is NOT out of the question.


I expect this to be added to Haley's Crowning Moment of Awesomeness page on Tvtropes. THAT was cool.

We also have more evidence that Sunny is some flavor of good, given their unwillingness to risk Haley's life, though she is technically an enemy at this time.

I say "their" because for the life of me I don't know Sunny's gender, nor whether it's even relevant to a floating eye-thingie.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Per the 5e write-up on Beholders, they reproduce via dreaming, and their dreams become real. Usually this does not increase the number of Beholders in the world, as new and old fight to the death. Sometimes they don't, though.


But they're not, they just roll with the blow, (not to mention having divine favor and luck to help them).

People are flexible, stone is rigid, stone is also heavier, this means it's not unreasonable for a fall that a person considers trivial to shatter stone.

Old statues are often missing arms, because they break.

A fall of 200 feet:

Is a frightening ride for a mouse
Injures a cat
Kills a human
Turns a horse into a barely recognizable mound of goo

[Draconi Redfir]

Nice moves Haley!:smallbiggrin:

[danielxcutter]

Oh, and in 3.5e beholders, uh, reproduce through the only hole in their head they have. Yeah, that one. Also they kill the ones that they deem too different from themselves.

[Petrocorus]

9.9 From the Swedish judge
9.8 from the Russian judge.
10.0 from the Brazilian judge.
9.9 from the French judge too.




Either Sunny uses his eye - which pretty much takes away all of Serini's magic items, her invisibility as well leaving her alone again an entire party - all of which are capable fighters

And incidently, it will also undo most of the debuffs the Order is suffering of. A



Regardless I'll assume this option is off the table since it's kind of clear Bloodfeast isn't getting involved (and Belkar will shove him as soon as the anti magic is back)

I wonder about this. Right now, the AMF is not on the Order, but if Sunny does try to AMF them again, then Bloodfeast is turning back to full allosaurus.
This also means that Elan and Minrah are probably getting V and Roy back up by now.


I think the Giant would disapprove of someone being considered less moral just because they're of a "monstrous" race.
Well, the 3.5 material does describe the beholders as monstrous in their thinking. They are almost literally hardwired to be mad, hateful and paranoid.

[danielxcutter]

Well, the 3.5 material does describe the beholders as monstrous in their thinking. They are almost literally hardwired to be mad, hateful and paranoid.

And Rich absolutely loathes that the devs make any species innately evil. Personally I'd say actually giving enough justification and elaboration makes it less problematic, but as a whole I'm inclined to agree with him.

[Peelee]

And Rich absolutely loathes that the devs make any species innately evil. Personally I'd say actually giving enough justification and elaboration makes it less problematic, but as a whole I'm inclined to agree with him.

I'm 100% with you on everything you said there.

[hungrycrow]

And Rich absolutely loathes that the devs make any species innately evil. Personally I'd say actually giving enough justification and elaboration makes it less problematic, but as a whole I'm inclined to agree with him.

I think Rich is also willing to have certain creatures be innately evil: all of the sentient undead we've seen have been monstrous and even the good Vampire Durkon suggested his change of heart was only temporary.
It just gets uncomfortable when the creatures are just humans with different features and identical jerk personalities.

[Obscuraphile]

I love the implication that Haley has a magic dye job. I know it’s just a representation of the AMF but it’s still funny.

[littlebum2002]

But an anti-magic cone ambush like that was so unfair that there really wasn't a way to get out of it without something completely separate from the mechanics like that

Do you feel that way about Xykon, too? He's WAY too high a level to be an appropriate encounter for the Order.

[danielxcutter]

I think Rich is also willing to have certain creatures be innately evil: all of the sentient undead we've seen have been monstrous and even the good Vampire Durkon suggested his change of heart was only temporary.
It just gets uncomfortable when the creatures are just humans with different features and identical jerk personalities.

It appears Rich is willing to make concessions with outsiders(literally made of X alignment) and undead(literally powered by negative energy) in the context of OoTS at the least, but beholders are neither. Granted, "canon" beholders are also wired to be pretty cuckoo by human standards, but I think Rich has a similar philosophy when it comes to sentients as Keith Baker, creator of Eberron. Keith has a blog and he says stuff like an aberration is probably going to have a hard time being Good even if raised away from their abusive masters and kin and be fundamentally different, but at the same time it'd be possible to achieve non-Evilness.

Also yes, it's particularly oof when the creatures are basically funny-looking humans.


Do you feel that way about Xykon, too? He's WAY too high a level to be an appropriate encounter for the Order.

I'll be honest, I'm expecting Roy to Bull Rush him through the Rift and then he gets eaten by the Snarl.

[hamishspence]

It appears Rich is willing to make concessions with outsiders(literally made of X alignment) and undead(literally powered by negative energy) in the context of OoTS at the least
Even undead have been portrayed with nuance by The Giant.

In Good Deeds Gone Unpunished:

The Katos meet a friendly ghost, try and find a role for her in their settlement - and then introduce Hinjo to her.

Hinjo makes it clear that, to him, ghosts and the living are morally similar - living creatures are souls with bodies, ghosts are souls without bodies.

And he treats her as very much a person - which means that, if she's doing a job, she must get paid.

[Windscion]

So, it is entirely plausible that in one or two pages the Order will realize who they are up against. After all, if Sunny looks at Haley and Serini with zir central eye, goodbye invisibility. And if Sunny doesn't use zir central eye, ze cannot see Serini, and cannot break Serini's fall. I do not see Sunny letting "Mom" be hurt, altho Serini might have indoctrinated Sunny to not worry about falls.
Granted that the Order doesn't know what Serini looks like, she is indisputably an old :xykon: female :miko: halfling :belkar: involved with the gates :mitd::roach:.

[danielxcutter]

Even undead have been portrayed with nuance by The Giant.

In Good Deeds Gone Unpunished:

The Katos meet a friendly ghost, try and find a role for her in their settlement - and then introduce Hinjo to her.

Hinjo makes it clear that, to him, ghosts and the living are morally similar - living creatures are souls with bodies, ghosts are souls without bodies.

And he treats her as very much a person - which means that, if she's doing a job, she must get paid.

To be fair, ghosts are one of the few exceptions to the default "undead are Evil" thing. Also taunting haunts, but that's all I can remember at the moment.

[P. G. Macer]

Oh, yeah! That was amazing! Go Haley, go Haley! *waves pom-poms*

Also, the conversation about petrification between Sunny and Serini was a little disturbing, especially as I’m struggling to tell how comedic Sunny’s bold-italic response to “we have glue at home” is supposed to be. Is it supposed to be like a whiney kid’s “Mo-om!” or more like an adult telling their mother “Mom.”?

[danielxcutter]

So, it is entirely plausible that in one or two pages the Order will realize who they are up against. After all, if Sunny looks at Haley and Serini with zir central eye, goodbye invisibility. And if Sunny doesn't use zir central eye, ze cannot see Serini, and cannot break Serini's fall. I do not see Sunny letting "Mom" be hurt, altho Serini might have indoctrinated Sunny to not worry about falls.
Granted that the Order doesn't know what Serini looks like, she is indisputably an old :xykon: female :miko: halfling :belkar: involved with the gates :mitd::roach:.

I mean there aren't many other candidates so I wouldn't be too shocked if at least one member of the Order'd guessed who Serini is.

[woweedd]

YOU JUST GOT OUTROGUED, LADY!

And Rich absolutely loathes that the devs make any species innately evil. Personally I'd say actually giving enough justification and elaboration makes it less problematic, but as a whole I'm inclined to agree with him.
In the case of Beholders, I think the implication is less "they're all born evil" and more "the ones that aren't born evil are killed by their parents as weaklings before reaching adulthood", but fair.

[Fyraltari]

And Rich absolutely loathes that the devs make any species innately evil. Personally I'd say actually giving enough justification and elaboration makes it less problematic, but as a whole I'm inclined to agree with him.
These explanations pretty much never hold up to scrutiny, though. Then again, what does in fantasy? And also raise the question of why your story needs your universe to be prejudiced.

all of the sentient undead we've seen have been monstrous.
Behold (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0328.html), the most terrible monster the Order of the Stick ever faced!

[ManuelSacha]

Ah, yes!
Uncanny Dodgeball.
I've seen the YouTube videos.

[Seward]

Aah, I wasn't sure why her magical dagger helped her to climb walls, but now I get it.

Yeh. Adamantine isn't magic, it just lets you cut through anything not 20 hardness as if it had zero hardness. Adamantine weapons are awesome utility tools. Climbing, "lockpicking" by cutting the lock in half, using your "Craft Sculpture" skill on random rocks in downtime tc.

[Bisqwit]

I love the implication that Haley has a magic dye job. I know it’s just a representation of the AMF but it’s still funny.

What do you mean by the implication?
It is an established convention in this comic that an antimagic field makes everything extremely desaturated.

[danielxcutter]

These explanations pretty much never hold up to scrutiny, though. Then again, what does in fantasy? And also raise the question of why your story needs your universe to be prejudiced.

I did say less problematic.

[Mr Popo]

Glorious. A truly enjoyable kick.

[InvisibleBison]

And the number of extra d6s an Epic Rogue gets for a sneak attack requires Serini to have her own dice factory. At 19th level it's +10d6, so maybe +12d6 or +14d6. For each of three attacks per round. 12d6 averages 42, plus the normal weapon damage (d6 + magic bonus for a short sword plus a whole big batch of adds from epic dexterity - call it another 20 points per hit). If Serini can hit 3 times, 180 points of damage in a single round is NOT out of the question.

Except that Serini can't sneak attack Haley. Haley has uncanny dodge, so she retains her Dexterity bonus when attacked by an invisible creature and thus isn't vulnerable to sneak attacks.

[danielxcutter]

Except that Serini can't sneak attack Haley. Haley has uncanny dodge, so she retains her Dexterity bonus when attacked by an invisible creature and thus isn't vulnerable to sneak attacks.

Yes, but she is easily capable of deleting one member of the Order so hard even Resurrection might not work unless she blows a roll or two.

No, I do not expect her to actually do that.

[Shining Wrath]

Except that Serini can't sneak attack Haley. Haley has uncanny dodge, so she retains her Dexterity bonus when attacked by an invisible creature and thus isn't vulnerable to sneak attacks.

I had forgotten that, even though she excels at Uncanny Dodgeball :smallbiggrin:. The only way she can be sneak attacked is if Sunny comes down and flanks her, and Serini is 4+ levels higher. The latter is likely, the former puts Sunny at extreme risk - which they may accept to save Mom.

[KorvinStarmast]

And if Sunny doesn't use zir central eye, ze cannot see Serini, and cannot break Serini's fall. Setting up an "I've fallen and I can't get up" joke if Haley has her grappled ...

“we have glue at home” Serini is an epic level adventurer. She's been up to her waist in blood and gore before, over the course of her adventures and battles with the Scribblers. Sunny hasn't the benefit of that experience and is thus trying real hard to stick to the plan Serini had laid out, to include its constraints. Serini is all about the win, and she's the mission leader ...

In the case of Beholders, I think the implication is less "they're all born evil" and more "the ones that aren't born evil are killed by their parents as weaklings before reaching adulthood", but fair. Yeah, that lore seems to fit the later editions of D&D well enough, but lore need not be considered to be binding.
The game's lore is a seed for the imagination, not a hard and fast rule. :smallsmile:

Adamantine isn't magic, it just lets you cut through anything not 20 hardness as if it had zero hardness. Adamantine weapons are awesome utility tools. Climbing, "lockpicking" by cutting the lock in half, using your "Craft Sculpture" skill on random rocks in downtime tc. Sweet. I wonder if my 5e DM will concur with that theme; one of our PCs has adamantine half plate, so the chance that I might get an adamantine dagger is greater than 0 even if it isn't super high.
And our party is in and about a really big dwarf colony just now.
What shall I trade for an adamantine dagger if there's one available? Hmmmmmm...need to talk to my DM.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Sunny is so adorable in this comic, between their comment about limbs and the arguing with "Mom". I hope that Sunny will be sticking around for a good chunk of this book. I'm also excited to see the Rogue vs. Rogue action that will be present in the next strip!

[Fyraltari]

Serini is an epic level adventurer. She's been up to her waist in blood and gore before, over the course of her adventures and battles with the Scribblers. Sunny hasn't the benefit of that experience and is thus trying real hard to stick to the plan Serini had laid out, to include its constraints. Serini is all about the win, and she's the mission leader ...
Maybe the starting assumption should be that the person who objects to actions that would kill people just doesn't want to kill people?

[Michaeler]

In the case of Beholders, I think the implication is less "they're all born evil" and more "the ones that aren't born evil are killed by their parents as weaklings before reaching adulthood", but fair.

Though to be fair, Sunny appears to have been adopted relatively early in life.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Also, the conversation about petrification between Sunny and Serini was a little disturbing, especially as I’m struggling to tell how comedic Sunny’s bold-italic response to “we have glue at home” is supposed to be. Is it supposed to be like a whiney kid’s “Mo-om!” or more like an adult telling their mother “Mom.”?Putting the pieces of a broken petrified person back is enough for them to be whole when de-petrified.

My impression is this is sort of like the "Cleric's feather fall": not a big deal to a seasoned adventurer, although a big deal to "normal" people.

[Necris Omega]

Also they kill the ones that they deem too different from themselves.

They're not evil - they're just pathological narcissists!

If nothing else, it keeps them in small-solitary encounters. Beholders are stupid powerful enough as it is with just one of them (this comic being exhibit a).

That said, I do prefer the 3.5 interpretations, if only because I like to keep my Far Realm influences kept as much on the periphery as possible. Beholders are pretty bombastic, and Lovecraft-based horror is more vulnerable to the effects of exposure than most other forms.

[TuringTest]

The only thing that irked me was that sunny used the most effective spell for each party member.

That could be carefully prepared in advance as part of the plan. But it confirms that Serini has been watching the Order quite a bit more that we expected, if she can be so effective with the planning.


Haylee is awesome.
Unarmed Strikes: They're not just for monks anymore!

Amen there!

[Lord Vukodlak]

So Haley's little maneuver reminds me of something I pulled off in a D&D campaign a decade back. Where my Lizardman fighter leapt off the top of a tower to grapple a beholder. Now the combined weight of himself and his armor exceeded the beholders maximum load.
So we slowly float down screaming in agony like a balloon with just a little to much weight. The Beholder because I have it by two stalks. And myself because I was getting blast in the face.

Later he prepared float roast.(he cooked and ate the beholder)

[Xihirli]

Is there a particular reason that Haley was able to kick Serini but Serini couldn't shoot Haley? Is there a mechanical explanation or just "Haley rolled better?"

[TriForce]

The definitive guide to character inteeligence:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html

hmm, you know, that beholder a few comics after the one you linked looks exactly like sunny. same eye colour and everything. wonder if thats intentional

[Kantaki]

"Hands and feet are so overpowered!" envy got me a literal laughing out loud, and I don't get many of those.

Is Sunny wrong?
No, they aren't.

But it's a great line, yes. :smallbiggrin:

[BarakDeathBlade]

hmm, you know, that beholder a few comics after the one you linked looks exactly like sunny. same eye colour and everything. wonder if thats intentional

I believe the Giant has said one of the orange/green voices that captured O-Chul and Lein was a recurring character who had appeared in exactly one prior page. Serini's been in multiple, so that leaves Sunny.

Intentional, or an excellent case of "fake it until you make it" or "feign it until they ordain it."

[faustin]

When a beholder have to talk you out of performing a morally questionable action, maybe it´s time to reconsider your alignment.

[Peelee]

When a beholder have to talk you out of performing a morally questionable action, maybe it´s time to reconsider your alignment.

Eye Tyrant is pretty clearly not evil, so I doubt that assertion.

[BarakDeathBlade]

So here's a thought.

I'm assuming, the effects of the center eye last an entire round, even though Haley has left the area of effect. So whatever movement she has done, going up ~ 30 feet under fly, then doing a trapeze act off her bow and kicking Serini, she no longer has Fly for this round?

So she could regain Fly in mid fall, when she uses up her movement?

There's precedent:

:belkar: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html

[Fyraltari]

Is there a particular reason that Haley was able to kick Serini but Serini couldn't shoot Haley? Is there a mechanical explanation or just "Haley rolled better?"

She did shoot Haley. In panel 5.

[Arutema]

Is there a particular reason that Haley was able to kick Serini but Serini couldn't shoot Haley? Is there a mechanical explanation or just "Haley rolled better?"

Presumably yes, dice luck. With uncanny dodge, Haley is the one member of the OOTS who's not flat-footed against Serini's attacks from invisibility, which means Serini needs a higher dice roll to hit Haley than any other member.

[Borris]

Is there a particular reason that Haley was able to kick Serini but Serini couldn't shoot Haley? Is there a mechanical explanation or just "Haley rolled better?"
I see that less as an unarmed attack and more as a bull rush (as part of a charge) that pushed Serini off Sunny's back. Serini didn't get an attack of opportunity because she didn't have a melee weapon out. And Sunny didn't make one (with a bite) because there would have been a 25% chance to hit Serini.

Between a +2 for charging, a halfling's -2 penalty to Strength (plus a possible penalty for old age), and a -4 size penalty, Haley was pretty much assured to win the opposed Strength check.

[Borris]

It does not reflect well on Serini when a literal monster is less monstrous than her...

I'm surprised that no one else pointed this out, but Serini is also a literal monster. Halflings are right there in the Monster Manual, just between half-fiends and harpies

[Jay R]

So, can Sunny's telekinesis catch them both? Because if they are high enough for stone to shatter on impact...

... then they are at least as high as a pedestal, according to this article (https://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/09/arts/met-s-15th-century-adam-shatters-as-pedestal-collapses.html).

Stone is stronger than flesh, but far more brittle.

[Gusion]

So, can Sunny's telekinesis catch them both? Because if they are high enough for stone to shatter on impact...

It is only a DC 30 tumble check to ignore 20 feet of fall damage. As an epic level rogue, she can probably make this in her sleep. She probably can make a DC 45 to ignore 30 feet of fall damage, but obviously I'm less certain on that one.


It does not reflect well on Serini when a literal monster is less monstrous than her...

In 1241 Serini wanted the beholderish creature to "hit 'em with everything you got." It was the creature who said, "but not #8, right?" at which Serini said "fine..."

So it isn't anything new that Serini doesn't especially care if they die.

[wilphe]

The loyalty that Sunny shows Serini is an important quality in an ally.

So is thinking on your feet. He needs to work on that.



Well you know, Beholder...

[Sir_Norbert]

I believe the Giant has said one of the orange/green voices that captured O-Chul and Lein was a recurring character who had appeared in exactly one prior page. Serini's been in multiple, so that leaves Sunny.

Not quite. The Giant said, as a teaser in the previous book, that some time in this book we'd re-encounter a character who had appeared in exactly one page so far. A few people guessed -- even though it made zero sense -- that it would be either the green or orange voice, with 1189 as their one appearance. Now that Sunny's appeared, it's very likely that Sunny is the one-appearance character and previously appeared in 32, but we still don't know for certain.

[bt109]

THIS is why I love Haley! Brilliant use of an open feint going to the bow: Sunny thinks she's going to use it as a weapon, so she holds tighter...which is exactly what Haley wants her to do.

I already use her to explain shell games, and this works for one of the 36 Stratagems. I betcha we could find examples of the other 35, too.

Okay, now I've got a project.

[JonahFalcon]

I hope this "heroes fighting heroes" trope is finally concluded.

[elros]

One of my dislikes in every fantasy movie, game, etc are the matrix knock-off characters with high damage bursts, missile attacks that never miss, or dodges that make them impossible to hit. It was kind of neat 20 years ago, but not anymore.
I realize everything happens to further the plot, and in a couple of strips I won’t care, but Haley pulling the combo of Spider-Man and Neo against an epic rogue focused entirely on her just doesn’t work for me.

[danielxcutter]

One of my dislikes in every fantasy movie, game, etc are the matrix knock-off characters with high damage bursts, missile attacks that never miss, or dodges that make them impossible to hit. It was kind of neat 20 years ago, but not anymore.
I realize everything happens to further the plot, and in a couple of strips I won’t care, but Haley pulling the combo of Spider-Man and Neo against an epic rogue focused entirely on her just doesn’t work for me.

I understand what you mean, but I still find it more entertaining than the trope where something's just tough enough to "nope" everything via facetanking.

[enq]

Also, it's not like Haley has been #nbd (no big deal) dodging Serini's attacks. Except perhaps the last one, in which all her time spent with Elan allowed her to pun-dodge.

[BriarHobbit]

This was awesome. All of it. The fight is not done, but I like this new revelation.

[bt109]

One of my dislikes in every fantasy movie, game, etc are the matrix knock-off characters with high damage bursts, missile attacks that never miss, or dodges that make them impossible to hit. It was kind of neat 20 years ago, but not anymore.
I realize everything happens to further the plot, and in a couple of strips I won’t care, but Haley pulling the combo of Spider-Man and Neo against an epic rogue focused entirely on her just doesn’t work for me.

Okay, but...how high level is Haley? The Order has to be in their late teens, right? In order for Haley's Uncanny Dodge to work, Sereni can't be more than 5 levels higher.

And it's not like Sereni doesn't have anything putting her at a disadvantage here. Sunny's distracting her in multiple ways, and she's clearly not had this big a challenge in a while.

[DLcygnet]

Dear Giant,

I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed this page, along with many many others; but this one in particular had great pacing, action and comedy, not to mention a fantastic punch-line. Also, rogue family picnics sound fun!

❤

[danielxcutter]

Okay, but...how high level is Haley? The Order has to be in their late teens, right? In order for Haley's Uncanny Dodge to work, Sereni can't be more than 5 levels higher.

And it's not like Sereni doesn't have anything putting her at a disadvantage here. Sunny's distracting her in multiple ways, and she's clearly not had this big a challenge in a while.

It's only Improved Uncanny Dodge, which has to do with flanking, that counts the relevant class levels. Serini could literally have hundreds of levels and technically normal Uncanny Dodge would work just fine.

[Psyren]

Even undead have been portrayed with nuance by The Giant.

In Good Deeds Gone Unpunished:

The Katos meet a friendly ghost, try and find a role for her in their settlement - and then introduce Hinjo to her.

Hinjo makes it clear that, to him, ghosts and the living are morally similar - living creatures are souls with bodies, ghosts are souls without bodies.

And he treats her as very much a person - which means that, if she's doing a job, she must get paid.

Ghosts are a special case though, even D&D does not make them always evil. They are more disembodied tragic soul than negative energy (as compared to say, shadows and wraiths.) In other words, ghosts do not have to conform to any author's general stance on undead, whether that author is Rich or the D&D/PF devs themselves.

[Ruck]

She did shoot Haley. In panel 5.

And in panel 6, we see she missed.

[TuringTest]

... then they are at least as high as a pedestal, according to this article (https://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/09/arts/met-s-15th-century-adam-shatters-as-pedestal-collapses.html).

Stone is stronger than flesh, but far more brittle.

It should still be higher than an absurdly high (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html) air sigil (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html).


Also, it's not like Haley has been #nbd (no big deal) dodging Serini's attacks. Except perhaps the last one, in which all her time spent with Elan allowed her to pun-dodge.

Now I like that dodge even more! :smallbiggrin:

[Sebastian]

So, can Sunny's telekinesis catch them both? Because if they are high enough for stone to shatter on impact...

When you get to a high enough level turning to a stone statue give you less hitpoints.

[diplomancer]

Once I was carrying a small stone tabletop. I tripped and fell down, dropping the tabletop. I was uninjured, but the tabletop split in half.
It's easier to cut flesh than stone, but stone is far more breakable than flesh.

[Wysper]

*Keep talking, so I can draw a bead on you*.

I love the sense of the jump being carried thru 3 panels, but I can see it all as one action.

Excellent page and awesome move by Hailey!
Can't wait to see what comes next.


I love the concept of the child beholder that doesn't want to hurt anyone.

I predict Sunny will look at mom with her big eye and negate all her buffs.

[Liquor Box]

hmm, you know, that beholder a few comics after the one you linked looks exactly like sunny. same eye colour and everything. wonder if thats intentional

There's some prophecy whereby a character that we've seen briefly will come back to play a major part in the story. Some people speculated that the beholder you refer to was Sunny, who has now returned. Probably not that likely though.


One of my dislikes in every fantasy movie, game, etc are the matrix knock-off characters with high damage bursts, missile attacks that never miss, or dodges that make them impossible to hit. It was kind of neat 20 years ago, but not anymore.
I realize everything happens to further the plot, and in a couple of strips I won’t care, but Haley pulling the combo of Spider-Man and Neo against an epic rogue focused entirely on her just doesn’t work for me.

From a game rules perspective, the sequence of rolls that would be required for Serini's attack to miss, and Hayley to do what she did is much much more likely than the sequence of rolls that would have been required to debuff most of the Order. Serini has been much more lucky than the Order in this fight so far.

[Hasric]

Awesome to see Haley's rogue skills at full use.

[St Fan]

Mmmh... Haley has dodged a shot while climbing. Does this girl have hidden from us one level of Thief-Acrobat?

And before you start contesting, no, Uncanny Dodge doesn't cover it. Uncanny Dodge protect against being flat-footed; the climb skill says "While climbing, you can’t move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)."

The first level of the Thief-Acrobat prestige class gives the Steady Stance ability, which covers this vulnerability.

[Ruck]

I hope this "heroes fighting heroes" trope is finally concluded.

I can't wait until this whole "ragtag band of unlikely misfits saves the world" trope is over.

[The MunchKING]

Haley needs to Down-A in Midair to spike Serrini. :smallbiggrin:

[DiMono]

There's a typo in the first panel: "It's just a a ward"

[Corian]

There's a typo in the first panel: "It's just a a ward"

It looks like a kerning issue more than a typo to me, but yes the letters could be better separated.

[Robots]

Nice, new update. Takes a rogue to beat a rogue, I guess.

[Fyraltari]

It looks like a kerning issue more than a typo to me, but yes the letters could be better separated.

There is one a too many. It's hard to spot because of the line break.

[Peelee]

There's some prophecy whereby a character that we've seen briefly will come back to play a major part in the story. Some people speculated that the beholder you refer to was Sunny, who has now returned.

I really love how you made it sound much more grandiose than I've ever thought of it.

[ebarde]

Is Haley Chaotic Evil for drop kicking the elderly

[Ionathus]

It is, but I wouldn't bet a cent on Serini willing to risk Sunny like that.

Agreed. I'm guessing Serini only used Sunny here because she thought it would be an open-and-shut ambush. As soon as Sunny started taking significant damage, she changed tactics. I highly doubt she's going to let Sunny get anywhere near a fight with Xykon "Collateral Damage" the Lich.


an anti-magic cone ambush like that was so unfair that there really wasn't a way to get out of it without something completely separate from the mechanics like that

If Serini wasn't being unfair in her ambush, she wouldn't deserve the title of Epic Rogue :smalltongue:


It never ceases to amaze me how expressive stick figures can be :-D

Agreed. Order of the Stick is one of the most dynamic and visually-interesting comics I read, moreso than many comics that are fully illustrated in realistic style with gorgeous, hand-drawn detail.

It's hard to make someone's expression clearly readable, or show the choreography of how a fight is going. OotS was always decent at this, but Rich has really stepped up his game in the last few books. The Battle of Azure City was an impressive early example, though I'd say the fight where everything really came together and every blow visually "worked" for me was Belkar's return to fighting glory at the Thieves' Guild.

[Blue Dragon]

Whoa! I jumped in the chair with that last panel! Now I'll remain unrest in said chair until the next one comes up! Bravo, Rich!

[bunsen_h]

It should still be higher than an absurdly high (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html) air sigil (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html).

Could Celia have had some buffs running that would have protected her from the damage?

[Riftwolf]

If Serini hadn't been talking so much Haley wouldn't have been able to pinpoint her. So I guess Serini should've
*puts on sunglasses*
Stayed mum

[Thermophille]

Since nobody's pointed this out before that I saw, I just wanted to mention that Haley's high AC is probably mostly due to her full suite of AC boosting gear from Crystal.

Throw in Dex bonus, Uncanny Dodge, and the Total Defense she was taking a couple turns, and it's not surprising that an elderly opponent a couple of range categories away had trouble hitting her, Epic or not.

And of course, a Bull Rush uses a Combat Maneuver Check, and is unaffected by AC.

[MoiMagnus]

Mmmh... Haley has dodged a shot while climbing. Does this girl have hidden from us one level of Thief-Acrobat?

And before you start contesting, no, Uncanny Dodge doesn't cover it. Uncanny Dodge protect against being flat-footed; the climb skill says "While climbing, you can’t move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)."

The first level of the Thief-Acrobat prestige class gives the Steady Stance ability, which covers this vulnerability.

Uncanny dodge does work.

If you look at the text of this Steady Stance ability, it says:

Steady Stance (Ex): A thief-acrobat remains stable on her feet when others have difficulty standing. She is not considered flat-footed while balancing or climbing, and she adds her class level as a bonus on Balance or Climb checks to remain balancing or climbing when she takes damage.
Which presupposes that climbing does make you flat-footed (otherwise steady stance would be useless).
In other words, if steady stance works, then uncanny dodge works too.

RAW might be that none of them work because there isn't the exact words "flat-footed" in the description of climbing. But I think that RAI, both work and Haley can indeed "uncanny dodge" those arrows.

[danielxcutter]

Since nobody's pointed this out before that I saw, I just wanted to mention that Haley's high AC is probably mostly due to her full suite of AC boosting gear from Crystal.

Throw in Dex bonus, Uncanny Dodge, and the Total Defense she was taking a couple turns, and it's not surprising that an elderly opponent a couple of range categories away had trouble hitting her, Epic or not.

And of course, a Bull Rush uses a Combat Maneuver Check, and is unaffected by AC.

Most of her AC isn't going to work in an AMF.

[Thermophille]

Most of her AC isn't going to work in an AMF.

Good point.

Yeah, it is weird that Serini missed that many attacks.

[elecampane]

Preface: I'm sorry if some of my replies are contrary. I don't have an issue with the comic in general, or with any of people's opinions here. But I feel like there's an argument to be made for my point of view.


Because you were having an issue with a small part of an incomplete fight and were presenting it as if it was a foregone conclusion. Without that, there is significantly less sense of danger to the Order, we don't get a sense of Serini's power and competency, we don't get a sense of Serini's cleverness with traps and herding, we don't get a lot of what the author clearly wanted to convey. We would simply get another character who can throw a punch and then get punched back. That's not who the Giant wanted us to see. He wanted us to see someone who was capable of nearly taking down the entire party, but also a party who could overcome that by working together and helping each other. Your issues with the earlier comic would have gotten us none of that and the story would have been worse for it.

Sure, I hyperbolize a bit when I don't feel like writing out a whole text block like this, but the bones are still solid.
I too had an issue when Sunny incapacitated all of the OotS in the single round. My issue was not with the Order loosing at the moment, it was with how improbable they were made to loose. Not only Sunny managed to hit every single one of them with a touch attack (I mean, when you make seven attacks, there's 30% probability you'll get at least one nat 1, and some members have high AC even against touch attacks), every single one in the Order also failed their saving throw. It doesn't show that Serini and Sunny are smart/strong, it simply shows that the Order is extremely unlucky. And at that point nothing stopped Sunny from simply doing the same in each consecutive round; for some reason they didn't, instead choosing to spend their actions on concentrating on holding the bow with telekinesis (yes, telekinesis requires concentration, and yes, maintaining concentration takes up your standard actions every round). If they did, the fight would be far more brutal, and there was no reason for them to not do that.


Theory: Eye monsters reproduce asexually. Each of those eight tentacle eyes eventually matures and buds off to become a separate eye monster of their own.

What happens is that eventually, one of the tentacle eyes develops its own mouth. And then the eye will just not stop talking, no matter what the main eye keeps telling it to do. And of course, it's just gotta be contrarian about everything, bickering about the most pettiest of issues - until finally the main eye gets fed up, pulls the eye down and bites through the tentacle like its an umbilical cord, severing the mouthy upstart from the main eye like they're evicting a bad roommate. And then you have a new tiny Beholder.

This conveniently explains why Beholders are naturally Evil. Nice, well-mannered, polite, thoughtful, affable tentacle eyes never get annoying enough for the main eye to finally kick them out. Consequently, only the most ill-tempered, most aggravating tentacle eyes ever gain their independence. Their method of reproduction favors being Evil.
I mean, in 3.5 (where this comic takes place) they are canonically gender neutral. And there's even a description of the reproduction process given. Your fine theory is not far off of that, although the process described in LoM is more brutal.
Beholders are gender neutral, and they become fertile only once in their lives. During this period (which happens within the first forty years of a beholder’s life), the creature grows increasingly more erratic and paranoid in behavior. A strange ovoid organ below the back of the creature’s tongue grows large and swollen; this is the creature’s womb. A typical beholder gestates up to twelve young in its womb over a period of nearly six months, during which time it grows more and more active and cantankerous. A pregnant beholder eats nearly four times its normal amount of food for the first four months of its term, storing up food reserves in its stomach, intestines, and even its lung. During the final two months, the creature’s womb has swollen so large that its mouth becomes incapable of swallowing more food, and its tongue protrudes grossly from its maw. A beholder is at its most paranoid during this time and remains hidden in its lair until it gives birth.
The birthing of new beholders is a sight that few have witnessed, and by all accounts, it’s something that even fewer would want to witness. When a brood comes to term, a beholder’s jaw unhinges, and it regurgitates its womb out through the mouth. The creature bites the womb off, and it floats gently in the air. The young beholders are forced to chew their way out of the gory mass to freedom; they are capable of fl ight immediately, but their eye powers develop later in life. Although a beholder gives birth to up to a dozen young at once, only a handful survive. The parent observes its young and decides which look most like itself. The others are eaten by the ravenous parent, along with the discarded womb, and the surviving young are forced from the parent’s lair within the hour to fend for themselves.


Do you feel that way about Xykon, too? He's WAY too high a level to be an appropriate encounter for the Order.
Xykon never really imposes himself onto the party, they usually encounter him on their own terms, and usually have ample opportunity to flee. When the DM presents the party with a villain out of their league, but allows them the opportunity to plan and engage on their own terms, that breeds creative thinking. When the DM ambushes the party with an opponent out of their league, and actively deprives them of an opportunity to flee, that's just railroading, and it breeds only frustration. And Sunny and Serini suddenly loosing competence mid-fight and not finishing the Order off (or knocking them out) just feels like DM going "oh, crap, this is going to be a TPK!" and nerfing the enemies mid-fight. Again, I don't have an issue with the comic in general, but have an issue with that scene, as it looks really wrong to me as both a player and a DM.


To be fair, ghosts are one of the few exceptions to the default "undead are Evil" thing. Also taunting haunts, but that's all I can remember at the moment.
There's also gravecrawlers. They are intelligent undead worms (small size), who live in graveyards, calcify all flesh around them and converse with the spirits of the dead, gaining different lore in the process. They are listed as Always neutral, and necromancers and corpse-eating undead hate them, because petrified corpses are become unusable


So here's a thought.

I'm assuming, the effects of the center eye last an entire round, even though Haley has left the area of effect. So whatever movement she has done, going up ~ 30 feet under fly, then doing a trapeze act off her bow and kicking Serini, she no longer has Fly for this round?

So she could regain Fly in mid fall, when she uses up her movement?

There's precedent:

:belkar:
I mean, the magic should return the moment Haley's out the area, not next round, she should probably have the glowing aura in the last 2 panels here. I would point out that when they out of the antimagic field they should all still have the Telephatic bond active, and V should still have Stoneskin, and Haley Heroism (cast in 1220 and 1221, all of these have duration of 10 min/lvl, and I don't think more than 2 hours have passed). Probably not the Death ward though, since it would only last for ~13 min


I see that less as an unarmed attack and more as a bull rush (as part of a charge) that pushed Serini off Sunny's back. Serini didn't get an attack of opportunity because she didn't have a melee weapon out. And Sunny didn't make one (with a bite) because there would have been a 25% chance to hit Serini.

Between a +2 for charging, a halfling's -2 penalty to Strength (plus a possible penalty for old age), and a -4 size penalty, Haley was pretty much assured to win the opposed Strength check.
I very much like that interpretation, it makes total sense!


One of my dislikes in every fantasy movie, game, etc are the matrix knock-off characters with high damage bursts, missile attacks that never miss, or dodges that make them impossible to hit. It was kind of neat 20 years ago, but not anymore.
I realize everything happens to further the plot, and in a couple of strips I won’t care, but Haley pulling the combo of Spider-Man and Neo against an epic rogue focused entirely on her just doesn’t work for me.
I don't think it was Spider-man or Neo level shenanigans. When her flight got supressed, she made a reflex save to catch herself on the carven wall, and then just climbed the extremely uneven wall, as adventurers often do. Her dodging the arrow is just representing of her rouge ability to not loose her dex bonus to AC when assaulted by an invisible attacker or when caught flat-footed. Sure, it may look cheesy, but any high-level fantasy would look that way, regardless of whether the character be dexterity-based, or strength+constitution based (like Thog), or a spellcaster (Redcloak singlehandedly defeated the rebellion and collapsed a mountain). Also don't think such characters are Matrix knock-offs; I mean Flash first appeared in 1940s. But each has their own dislikes, I suppose.


From a game rules perspective, the sequence of rolls that would be required for Serini's attack to miss, and Hayley to do what she did is much much more likely than the sequence of rolls that would have been required to debuff most of the Order. Serini has been much more lucky than the Order in this fight so far.
Very much this!


Mmmh... Haley has dodged a shot while climbing. Does this girl have hidden from us one level of Thief-Acrobat?

And before you start contesting, no, Uncanny Dodge doesn't cover it. Uncanny Dodge protect against being flat-footed; the climb skill says "While climbing, you can’t move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)."

The first level of the Thief-Acrobat prestige class gives the Steady Stance ability, which covers this vulnerability.
I mean, the ability of thief-acrobat literally says "Steady Stance (Ex): A thief-acrobat remains stable on her feet when others have difficulty standing. She is not considered flat-footed while balancing or climbing<...>", so either uncanny dodge allows her to retain her dex bonus while climbing, or thief-acrobat doesn't help her. Seems like DM fiat to me.

[Fyraltari]

I just thought of a thing: Haley hitting "Mom"'s face instead of stomach will be their first clue they are fighting Serini and not sole unrelated fourth-party.

[Yendor]

I just thought of a thing: Haley hitting "Mom"'s face instead of stomach will be their first clue they are fighting Serini and not sole unrelated fourth-party.

That Serini was talking makes it easier for Haley to judge where her head must be.

[Ionathus]

Incidentally...according to 3.5e rules on petrification, WOULD using glue work? Or a similar adhesive, or maybe the Mending spell?

Is it a DM fiat thing or are there actual rules about restoring a smashed statue-person?

[JonahFalcon]

I can't wait until this whole "ragtag band of unlikely misfits saves the world" trope is over.


False equivalence.


Is Haley Chaotic Evil for drop kicking the elderly

She's drop-kicking an assailant.

And Xykon is much older than Serini.

[TuringTest]

Could Celia have had some buffs running that would have protected her from the damage?

Maybe, maybe not. The joke I was making is that it takes 16 strips for her to fall, so she must have been very, very high above the ground when petrified. :smallwink::smalltongue:

[Ruck]

False equivalence.

Not at all. I'm pointing out how easy it is to reduce any storytelling to "tropes" if you try hard enough, and what a reductive way that is to look at stories.

[Petrocorus]

Incidentally...according to 3.5e rules on petrification, WOULD using glue work? Or a similar adhesive, or maybe the Mending spell?

Is it a DM fiat thing or are there actual rules about restoring a smashed statue-person?

Mending would not work due to the spell weight limit, but Make Whole (a second level Cleric-exclusive version of Mending) could, if you have all the necessary parts.
The question is whether Flesh to Stone makes the victim an object or if he remains a creature, which is not clear in the rules. And i don't know if there ever was an official ruling on this.
It is clear however in the OotSverse. Since Shrink Item does work on petrified creature (such as Haley petrified by Zz'Dtri), that means the Giant has ruled that petrified creature are objects.

For glue or adhesive, IDK, i don't think there is something in the rules, but my understanding is that the creature will be return to life full of glue inside its body and with all the cuts still there, and suffer from the consequence.

[Peelee]

Mending would not work due to the spell weight limit,

Pish tosh, that's a mere triviality. Why, all one would need to do I cast a simple Teleport spell with the target destination as "straight up." Now that you are weightless, you are free to cast as many Silent Spell'd Mendings as your spell slots and constitution score allow before teleporting right back down to the ground and repeating it again the next day until all cracks are sealed. Monte Cook, you fool! You tied magic to a variable measure of force instead of unchangeable mass!

And anyone who complains that a falling object, though having immeasurable weight, still has weight in terms of m*g as an inherent property, gets Plane Shifted to the Elemental Plane of Air where g=0.

[bunsen_h]

Mending would not work due to the spell weight limit, but Make Whole (a second level Cleric-exclusive version of Mending) could, if you have all the necessary parts.
The question is whether Flesh to Stone makes the victim an object or if he remains a creature, which is not clear in the rules. And i don't know if there ever was an official ruling on this.
It is clear however in the OotSverse. Since Shrink Item does work on petrified creature (such as Haley petrified by Zz'Dtri), that means the Giant has ruled that petrified creature are objects.

Shrink Item, then Mending?

[F.Harr]

All right! Now we're cooking with charcoal!

I wonder what Elan's up to.

[StreamOfTheSky]

So now Haley is going to be engaged in a one-on-one duel with a desperate epic level rogue who is invisible and thus gets surprise every round. Not so good, even if it only lasts one round. We're going to be lucky if Haley doesn't need a resurrection.

Depends how many levels Serini has on her. Haley could very well be completely immune to losing dex to AC against invisibility due to Uncanny Dodge and actually the best person to take her on.
The fact she already was shown dodging an attack from the invisible Serini and her quip seems to confirm this is the case. So... no sneak attack for Serini. Or Haley. But Haley is bigger and stronger and her dagger is probably way better than whatever melee weapon Serini carries. Seems like even more than archer Haley, her whole schtick is to maneuver around and plink from range.

[enq]

But Haley is bigger and stronger and her dagger is probably way better than whatever melee weapon Serini carries.
As far as I can tell, Haley's dagger is probably way more still plunged into a wall than whatever melee weapon Serini carries :P

[Cazero]

Maybe, maybe not. The joke I was making is that it takes 16 strips for her to fall, so she must have been very, very high above the ground when petrified. :smallwink::smalltongue:
Nope. There's a thunk sound on the first fall strip. From this, I infer that the floor gave way on the second fall strip. It was two separate and relatively short falls.

[elecampane]

Re: petrification and the use of glue
I suppose whether it would work depends on how the DM interprets Flesh to Stone spell and similar effects.
Does it literally turns your flesh into stone, with all the internal organs maintaining their shape, all the inner anatomy in order (when cut in half one could serve as a display mannequin in a medical school)? If so, I would allow the glue to work if it was a stone-based glue, and if it would be meticulously applied to each damaged stone organ, so that later when Stone to Flesh is cast on a previously shattered object, the stone would also turn into flesh -- basically, thus turning glue into a scar tissue. But that would require a pretty high medicine and/or craft check. I would probably also allow it with sovereign glue, since it's pretty magical and would be able to hold the flesh together until it heals.
But that interpretation of Flesh to Stone might be unnecessarily complicated, have unfortunate implications (like extreme brittleness of the petrified creatures), and is not what I've seen most groups use.
If you think that Flesh to Stone turns creatures into solid stone statues, only having the shape of the creature and consisting of solid stone without any cavities, I don't see the reason to suddenly become pedantic when it comes to gluing said stone together. If Flesh to Stone transforms organs into a solid stone, I don't see why Stone to Flesh (or even Break Enchantment, or bard's Song of Freedom) shouldn't get some creative liberties too. And I can see the DM saying "ok, your organs are whole now, but they have glue in it", but a quick Neutralize Poison, or a Heal should take care of that.

[Vikenlugaid]

So, it is entirely plausible that in one or two pages the Order will realize who they are up against. After all, if Sunny looks at Haley and Serini with zir central eye, goodbye invisibility. And if Sunny doesn't use zir central eye, ze cannot see Serini, and cannot break Serini's fall. I do not see Sunny letting "Mom" be hurt, altho Serini might have indoctrinated Sunny to not worry about falls.
Granted that the Order doesn't know what Serini looks like, she is indisputably an old :xykon: female :miko: halfling :belkar: involved with the gates :mitd::roach:.

Sunny has 9 eyes to see Serini, doesn't need to use the central one.

[Petrocorus]

Pish tosh, that's a mere triviality. Why, all one would need to do I cast a simple Teleport spell with the target destination as "straight up." Now that you are weightless, you are free to cast as many Silent Spell'd Mendings as your spell slots and constitution score allow before teleporting right back down to the ground and repeating it again the next day until all cracks are sealed. Monte Cook, you fool! You tied magic to a variable measure of force instead of unchangeable mass!

Except the spell description says "up to 1 lb". So, Monte Cook actually used an unit of mass*, not weight. I used "weight" as a vernacular to avoid sounding pedantic. So that's on me.


*Incidently, if D&D could leave the 18th century behind and use the standard system, that would makes things a lot easier for me.


Shrink Item, then Mending?
I think that could work in the OotSverse.

[Lord Torath]

Except the spell description says "up to 1 lb". So, Monte Cook actually used an unit of mass*, not weight. I used "weight" as a vernacular to avoid sounding pedantic. So that's on me.


*Incidently, if D&D could leave the 18th century behind and use the standard system, that would makes things a lot easier for me.


I think that could work in the OotSverse.Since we're being pedantic, technically (https://xkcd.com/1475/), a pound-mass is abbreviated as lbm. "lb" refers to a a pound of force. I fully expect someone more pedantic than I to prove me wrong.
As to the US (thus D&D, and hence The Order of the Stick) still being stuck with a non-SI system, that's because some idiot inserted "voluntary" into the Metric Conversion Act of 1975. :smallannoyed: As an engineer, I find that morally indefensible. :smallfurious: But we're stuck with it for now. :smallsigh:

[drazen]

As to the US (thus D&D, and hence The Order of the Stick) still being stuck with a non-SI system, that's because some idiot inserted "voluntary" into the Metric Conversion Act of 1975. :smallannoyed: As an engineer, I find that morally indefensible. :smallfurious: But we're stuck with it for now. :smallsigh:

The average US citizen can barely do math, I doubt they would do well with trying to convert things in their head. Or they'd end up trying to do it on their phone with driving down the interstate.

Hell, I majored in math, but I have to do a conversion if someone gives me something in kg/km/mL because damned if I know instinctively off the top of my head how much that actually is, what with four or five decades of imperial units everywhere.

Dual signage would be needed for a lonnnnng time.

[Doug Lampert]

The average US citizen can barely do math, I doubt they would do well with trying to convert things in their head. Or they'd end up trying to do it on their phone with driving down the interstate.

Hell, I majored in math, but I have to do a conversion if someone gives me something in kg/km/mL because damned if I know instinctively off the top of my head how much that actually is, what with four or five decades of imperial units everywhere.

Dual signage would be needed for a lonnnnng time.

Based on the experience of countries that actually switched over (AKA at one time or another, pretty much all of them except the USA), people actually adjust pretty quickly for the units they use regularly.

Dual signage lets people NOT swap as they just ignore the metric signs, if you want them to switch you pull down the English signs and go to kilometers and KMH for everything on the highway.

The big issue is that the conversion is actually getting less important/useful all the time. In 1975 it would have been very handy to be using metric for anything you need to calculate about something physical. In 2021? Who does physics in their head now? The calculations you actually use can be programmed into a computer and it handles the units nonsense, the PROGRAMMER needs to get it right, so it's one more source of code bugs, but even there, it's usually handled.

[Peelee]

Hell, I majored in math, but I have to do a conversion if someone gives me something in kg/km/mL because damned if I know instinctively off the top of my head how much that actually is, what with four or five decades of imperial units everywhere.

Well that's because you majored in math, silly! The numbers don't really matter in upper level math, it's all about the process at that point. Now if you'd majored in physics....

Also, not Imperial. America is fun! We don't use Imperial, we use American Customary Units which are exactly like Imperial except for negligible, virtually indistinguishable changes in the actual values. FUN!

[littlebum2002]

Xykon never really imposes himself onto the party, they usually encounter him on their own terms, and usually have ample opportunity to flee. When the DM presents the party with a villain out of their league, but allows them the opportunity to plan and engage on their own terms, that breeds creative thinking. When the DM ambushes the party with an opponent out of their league, and actively deprives them of an opportunity to flee, that's just railroading, and it breeds only frustration. And Sunny and Serini suddenly loosing competence mid-fight and not finishing the Order off (or knocking them out) just feels like DM going "oh, crap, this is going to be a TPK!" and nerfing the enemies mid-fight. Again, I don't have an issue with the comic in general, but have an issue with that scene, as it looks really wrong to me as both a player and a DM.


They are entering a dungeon that was designed to challenge literally the most powerful people on the plant (like Xykon), and you think a beholder multi-eyed thing was "too powerful"?

[Petrocorus]

The average US citizen can barely do math,

Don't beat yourself, this is true for other countries, including, sadly, my own. Our boomers are still able to do basic operation by head, but the average millennial can't do *thing* :smallmad:

I myself am not that much better, despite graduating in mechanical engineering. There was a time when i could multiply a matrix or solve a first order differential equation by head, now i sometimes take my phone for substractions, even additions sometimes.



Hell, I majored in math, but I have to do a conversion if someone gives me something in kg/km/mL because damned if I know instinctively off the top of my head how much that actually is, what with four or five decades of imperial units everywhere.

This is my problem with D&D rules and scenarios (and some unrelated YT channels), sometimes i have to convert things on the fly, and despite knowing full well how much is a pound or a foot, this always requires me to do math in my head in the middle of something else.

And when it comes to ounces, grains, square-feet or other stuff, i'm completely lost.



Dual signage would be needed for a lonnnnng time.
I wonder how the British did this, since they switched quite recently i think.



Also, not Imperial. America is fun! We don't use Imperial, we use American Customary Units which are exactly like Imperial except for negligible, virtually indistinguishable changes in the actual values. FUN!
How many different pounds do exist?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Can we just appreciate how almost perfect Serini's plan was and how she herself made no mistake, except for randomness of rolls. The only thing she didn't account for was the inexperience of Sunny.

The OotS was completely helpless for the whole first part of the fight, and even after Elan's speech and when Sunny blinked, they were still mostly useless. The only one who could do anything was Haley, and Serini very clearly focused her. Blocking the door with a mimic was also some great out-of-the-box thinking against a party with a cleric. Then, it was only when Sunny antimagicked the arrow, while Serini explicitly told him not to that the tide started to turn, and even then, she almost immediately switched to a SoL blasting strategy, which gave her the edge back. The OotS only got out of it because of a lizard that could have been killed or rendered helpless if Sunny, again, would have used ray #8. Finally, this page shows that everything could have again been avoided if Sunny just followed the damn plan and turned Haley to stone or charmed her.

In the end, Serini did almost everything she could have, and only is in a bad position here because she underestimated the fact that Sunny is just a child (a superpowered flying child with 10 free action Save-or-Loses per round, but still a child with no adventuring experience). That, and Haley's absurd AC. Like, how can she dodge so many missiles in an antimagic field? Even if she has 21 AC (10+6 Dex (rolled 18+all the points up to lv16 in Dex)+2 leather armor+1 Dodge+2 fighting defensively), she is fighting an epic-level rogue! Seini's to-hit bonus should be higher than her AC! Even if Serini is only level 21, even if she only has 14 Dex (which is extremely implausible), and if her crossbow isn't masterwork or magical (even more unlikely) and she hasn't any magic item to boost her aim, she should have a +18 to hit. 85% chance to hit. Haley dodged 2 darts and 5 arrows inside the antimagic field! If Serini isn't proficient with a blowgun (I'm better with the crossbow), she has 65% chance to hit. Haley had less than a 1 out of 100,000 chance to evade all that! And if Serini has at least 18 Dex (as she obviously should), that becomes 1 in 51 millions! That's an uncomfortable amount of natural ones that she rolled here....

[Ionathus]

I also appreciate how Sunny is portrayed as inexperienced without being made to look like a complete fool. Like, Sunny is still effective in combat, and still takes initiative and thinks on their feet, even if their judgment isn't 100% in line with Serini's. Basically I'm trying to say that Rich did a good job differentiating between "green" and "incompetent", and it makes the scene much more effective than if Sunny was laughably stupid in an early-books-Elan sort of way.

[drazen]

They are entering a dungeon that was designed to challenge literally the most powerful people on the plant (like Xykon), and you think a beholder multi-eyed thing was "too powerful"?

Wait, when was Xykon on a plant? Was it the potted fern a dozen druids jumped out of in his lair and is this more evidence Durkon and the dwarves are right to fear the great arboreal terrors of the Stickverse? 😆😛

[ianm1981]

I wonder how the British did this, since they switched quite recently i think.


We didn't bother for things that needed signs... roads and so on are all still in miles but that's about it.

It was the smaller stuff that got converted over. Everything is sold in grams, litres etc and almost everything is packaged in round numbers of those, 2l bottle drink, 500g bag sugar etc. The only real exceptions left I can think of off the top of my head are beer and fresh milk which are normally packaged in multiples of a pint (568ml)


EDIT: oh and yes this does give is a few oddities like miles per litre being the default unit for a cars fuel efficiency etc.

[Squire Doodad]

Wait, when was Xykon on a plant? Was it the potted fern a dozen druids jumped out of in his lair and is this more evidence Durkon and the dwarves are right to fear the great arboreal terrors of the Stickverse? 😆😛

:durkon: : Ye cannae trust druids, they all are in league with tha trees.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Based on the experience of countries that actually switched over (AKA at one time or another, pretty much all of them except the USA), people actually adjust pretty quickly for the units they use regularly.Actual, most people live in countries with partial adoption.

On many occasions, countries that thoroughly adopted the metric system didn't have standardized measurements or unified terminology to begin with. For example France and India.

America and England had systems that were almost as good in place.

China had a decent system and (from what I can tell) still uses their units often, but have slightly adjusted the numbers so as to be exactly convertible with metric (and thus be compatible with metric machinery).


The big issue is that the conversion is actually getting less important/useful all the time. In 1975 it would have been very handy to be using metric for anything you need to calculate about something physical. In 2021? Who does physics in their head now? The calculations you actually use can be programmed into a computer and it handles the units nonsense, the PROGRAMMER needs to get it right, so it's one more source of code bugs, but even there, it's usually handled.The real problem is physical objects have discrete measurements and precision isn't free. I can easily calculate that nine weights of (2 pound weights, 3 ounce weights, and 4 dram weights) will balance a kilogram within 0.1%, but that widget is harder to build and breaks more easily because we tried to combined metric and US parts.

[Petrocorus]

On many occasions, countries that thoroughly adopted the metric system didn't have standardized measurements or unified terminology to begin with. For example France and India.

Indeed.



The real problem is physical objects have discrete measurements and precision isn't free. I can easily calculate that nine weights of (2 pound weights, 3 ounce weights, and 4 dram weights) will balance a kilogram within 0.1%, but that widget is harder to build and breaks more easily because we tried to combined metric and US parts.
I remember a story i heard when i was working in the space center about a failure to deliver a satellite at the right position because part of the programming team was using the American units and part was using the metric system.
I don't remember the source, but i'll probably look for it this evening.

[danielxcutter]

They are entering a dungeon that was designed to challenge literally the most powerful people on the plant (like Xykon), and you think a beholder multi-eyed thing was "too powerful"?

If you ask me it's gone less "powerful/competent" and more "cheap" for me; considering Sunny's almost shut down the entire Order twice and the fight'd already be over if Serini hadn't been so obsessed with turning Haley's kidneys into neurotoxin-flavored shish kebabs. It all feels a bit too... sudden, I guess.

Also because if Serini doesn't want them taking out the Gate then maybe she could have the Order jump Xykon in the AMF and grind him into calcium supplements. Though I guess the phylactery's a problem. Maybe she's just assuming she won't hold him back forever and is just trying to delay it.

[Peelee]

How many different pounds do exist?

I recommend some aspirin (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_imperial_and_US_customary_measur ement_systems).

All of this could be avoided by simply going to metric - over a generations, every unit be listed in local traditional measurements and also metric measurements. After enough time has passed, just stop putting the local traditional measurements on everything, and bam, everyone is already used to knowing what's what in metric for all daily use cases.

Also, campaign to change the name to the British kilogram sterling.

[Squire Doodad]

If you ask me it's gone less "powerful/competent" and more "cheap" for me; considering Sunny's almost shut down the entire Order twice and the fight'd already be over if Serini hadn't been so obsessed with turning Haley's kidneys into neurotoxin-flavored shish kebabs. It all feels a bit too... sudden, I guess.

Also because if Serini doesn't want them taking out the Gate then maybe she could have the Order jump Xykon in the AMF and grind him into calcium supplements. Though I guess the phylactery's a problem. Maybe she's just assuming she won't hold him back forever and is just trying to delay it.

If they hadn't fought Serini and instead were already teaming up, then the Order could have waited until Team Evil was shortly out of the cave, then run forward and ambush them with Sunny there to give them at least a free turn
Though if they lost, then things would go downhill, and Team Evil would likely find the "lock" trying to figure out how they got jumped.

But yeah, not everyone should have been taken out by Sunny, as fun as it was to see the Rube Goldberg-ing, I'd have been fine with one or two people getting out of it unscathed.

[bunsen_h]

Nope. There's a thunk sound on the first fall strip. From this, I infer that the floor gave way on the second fall strip. It was two separate and relatively short falls.

:vaarsuvius: "Are those cracks I see in the ceiling?" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html)


I remember a story i heard when i was working in the space center about a failure to deliver a satellite at the right position because part of the programming team was using the American units and part was using the metric system.
I don't remember the source, but i'll probably look for it this evening.

That would be the Mars Climate Orbiter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter).

[Fyraltari]

Actual, most people live in countries with partial adoption.
Hell, we invented the bloody system and there are still things (like leasuring screen width) we don't use it for.

Indeed.


I remember a story i heard when i was working in the space center about a failure to deliver a satellite at the right position because part of the programming team was using the American units and part was using the metric system.
I don't remember the source, but i'll probably look for it this evening.
Not a satellite, it was a probe that crashed on Mars. (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-oct-01-mn-17288-story.html)

And that, people, is why it's important to thouroughly comment and document your code.

[Peelee]

Hell, we invented the bloody system and there are still things (like leasuring screen width) we don't use it for.

Not a satellite, it was a probe that crashed on Mars. (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-oct-01-mn-17288-story.html)

And that, people, is why it's important to thouroughly comment and document your code.

Yeah, the problem was lack of documenting what you did. In the sciences, documenting what you did is like the most important thing. Or at the very least pretty damn high on the list.

[ORione]

Xykon never really imposes himself onto the party, they usually encounter him on their own terms, and usually have ample opportunity to flee. When the DM presents the party with a villain out of their league, but allows them the opportunity to plan and engage on their own terms, that breeds creative thinking. When the DM ambushes the party with an opponent out of their league, and actively deprives them of an opportunity to flee, that's just railroading, and it breeds only frustration. And Sunny and Serini suddenly loosing competence mid-fight and not finishing the Order off (or knocking them out) just feels like DM going "oh, crap, this is going to be a TPK!" and nerfing the enemies mid-fight. Again, I don't have an issue with the comic in general, but have an issue with that scene, as it looks really wrong to me as both a player and a DM.

You realize this isn't a game, right?

[Quizatzhaderac]

How many different pounds do exist?Two. (ignoring third countries) But really one.

The Avoirdupois pound (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoirdupois_system) is used in both countries to weight almost all types of things.

The Troy pound (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_weight) is exclusively used for precious metals, and then only professionally (jewelers, commodities traders, et cetra). Most of us don't even know Troy pounds are a thing.

About the only two things a person might notice is that the British use the stone (14 pounds, 6.3 kg) and the the imperial pint is 20% bigger than the American one.

[Petrocorus]

I recommend some aspirin (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_imperial_and_US_customary_measur ement_systems).

Oh gosh.



That would be the Mars Climate Orbiter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter).
Thank you.


Hell, we invented the bloody system and there are still things (like leasuring screen width) we don't use it for.

This is a recent trend. I remember in the 80s and 90s, TV size were in centimeters.
We do use inches in plumbing. My time in the space center is the only time i used American unit professionally and that was mostly about pipes size which were sometimes in millimetres and sometimes in inches.
We also used the cubic feet per minute for one specific tool measuring hygrometry IIRC.

[danielxcutter]

If they hadn't fought Serini and instead were already teaming up, then the Order could have waited until Team Evil was shortly out of the cave, then run forward and ambush them with Sunny there to give them at least a free turn
Though if they lost, then things would go downhill, and Team Evil would likely find the "lock" trying to figure out how they got jumped.

But yeah, not everyone should have been taken out by Sunny, as fun as it was to see the Rube Goldberg-ing, I'd have been fine with one or two people getting out of it unscathed.

Yes! And also, the first half of the fight was frustrating because the party was entirely incapable of fighting back properly if Sunny hadn't made a mistake. If they weren't completely doused in a small room, so they tried to escape and Sunny used Telekinesis to drop rocks in front of them to block the way, that'd have been cooler. Instead, the Order was basically doing... not much until Elan managed to make Sunny blink.

[Peelee]

Two.

Five!

Theres the Avoirdupois pound, London pound, Merchant Pound, Tower pound, and Troy pound.

If we focus on the Avoirdupois pound for simplicity, then we have seven pounds to the nail, two nails to the stone, two stones to the tod (well, two stones to the long tod. Twenty five pounds to the short tod), and, of course, thirteen tods to the sack. Couldn't be simpler!

Correct me if you dare.

[Riftwolf]

To get back to the original Mending topic; do the parts have to be correctly placed or could you just sweep up Haley and cast Mending/Make Whole on the pile?
Or for a different analogy; could Mending complete a 5000pc jigsaw in 6seconds?


Five!

Theres the Avoirdupois pound, London pound, Merchant Pound, Tower pound, and Troy pound.

If we focus on the Avoirdupois pound for simplicity, then we have even pounds to the nail, two nails to the stone, two stones to the tod (well, two stones to the long tod. Twenty five pounds to the short tod), and, of course, thirteen tods to the sack. Couldn't be simpler!

Correct me if you dare.

There's also the Great British Pound (GBP) which causes some confusion (someone I went to school with worked on a cheese counter, got asked for half a pound of cheese so she cut 50p worth)

[Squire Doodad]

Yes! And also, the first half of the fight was frustrating because the party was entirely incapable of fighting back properly if Sunny hadn't made a mistake. If they weren't completely doused in a small room, so they tried to escape and Sunny used Telekinesis to drop rocks in front of them to block the way, that'd have been cooler. Instead, the Order was basically doing... not much until Elan managed to make Sunny blink.

Personally I'm fine with the party having to wait for Elan to talk his way into them getting some light, though it seemed like it was extremely one-sided until then.
The inability of the order to get around the AMF didn't need to be that firm, I'd have been perfectly happy if, say, Durkon's hammer managed to bruise Sunny. Something that doesn't scream "unwinnable encounter" sort of a thing.
It's not that the party is falling victim to trump cards that neuter their abilities, but rather that they're falling victim to all of them with few chances to make good headway. A chain of turnarounds may be accurate sometimes, but it isn't particularly fun to watch after a while.
I'm hoping we're done with those for the moment though, and are getting back to good and proper smackery.

[Fyraltari]

Five!

Theres the Avoirdupois pound, London pound, Merchant Pound, Tower pound, and Troy pound.

If we focus on the Avoirdupois pound for simplicity, then we have even pounds to the nail, two nails to the stone, two stones to the tod (well, two stones to the long tod. Twenty five pounds to the short tod), and, of course, thirteen tods to the sack. Couldn't be simpler!

Correct me if you dare.

You are making some of those up, aren't you?

[Peelee]

There's also the Great British Pound (GBP) which causes some confusion (someone I went to school with worked on a cheese counter, got asked for half a pound of cheese so she cut 50p worth)

Also, campaign to change the name to the British kilogram sterling.
:amused:

You are making some of those up, aren't you?
My inventiveness for silliness got nothin' on the British.

ETA: I did skip over the fact that there's seven thousand grains to the pound and twenty grains to the scruple but the scruple doesn't technically translate to the pound because the drams are different (16 drams to the pound).

[Doug Lampert]

You are making some of those up, aren't you?

Nah, he's leaving off a bunch. The unit goes back to the Roman Empire (prior to the split) and was used EVERYWHERE in western Europe with local definitions and (as things got organized) a local reference weight.

From Wikipedia I get the following:
Avoirdupois, Troy, Tower, Merchant, London, Metric, Imperial Standard, Jersey pound, and Trone pound.

Based on the same Roman units you also have all of the following:
Byzantine litra, French livre, German and Austrian Pfund, Russian funt, Skålpund, Portuguese libra and arrátel

I would not assume Wikipedia to be anything close to complete.

Edited to add: If you meant the non-pound units, again no, any application might have made up a weight unit that was convenient to that application, as things were regularized they were all made into more or less even fractions and multiples of other stuff.

[Peelee]

Nah, he's leaving off a bunch. The unit goes back to the Roman Empire

It was a very silly place.

[DavidSh]

Tods and Sacks I don't know about, but if I recall it's eight stones to the hundredweight, and twenty hundredweights to the ton. I'm not sure how the stone got inflated from the 12.5 pounds this implies to 14 pounds.
ObOOTS: What Haley was doing with the bow wasn't so much as fake as what chess players call a "fork". If Sunny lets go of the bow she gets the bow as a weapon. If Sunny doesn't, she gets it as a trapeze.

[elecampane]

They are entering a dungeon that was designed to challenge literally the most powerful people on the plant (like Xykon), and you think a beholder multi-eyed thing was "too powerful"?

I would like to point out that Xykon is specifically not challenged by this dungeon, he cuts through it like butter and the only thing it takes is his time. But that's beside the point.
My complaint is that
either:
a) Sunny is extremely powerful, far more than an adult beholder should be. It makes sense from the defense of the gate point of view, but does not from either game design point of view or storytelling point of view. It's weird to introduce an overwhelmingly powerful opponent only to have it loose due to catching several idiot balls. By the end of 1241 when my dissatisfaction with the fight culminated it seemed that over next couple of rounds it should be over, since Sunny can repeatedly blast with rays for several more rounds (and it would be over if not for the sudden rush of incompetence). That would not be very satisfying plotline to me.
or
b) Sunny is no stronger that a regular beholder, but extremely lucky, which is also weird. At the level the Order was failing checks they should've made, I would expect a divine intervention similar to one in 200&201, when Miko attacked them in the storm -- and that would be perfectly ok with me, but I don't think we're getting that

I guess when the comic is released as a book those concerns won't be that important, but since we're having to wait couple of weeks for the next strip, we vent our frustration in the forum. And then other people call out said venting, and here we are having this conversation.


<...>That, and Haley's absurd AC. Like, how can she dodge so many missiles in an antimagic field? Even if she has 21 AC (10+6 Dex (rolled 18+all the points up to lv16 in Dex)+2 leather armor+1 Dodge+2 fighting defensively), she is fighting an epic-level rogue! Seini's to-hit bonus should be higher than her AC! Even if Serini is only level 21, even if she only has 14 Dex (which is extremely implausible), and if her crossbow isn't masterwork or magical (even more unlikely) and she hasn't any magic item to boost her aim, she should have a +18 to hit. 85% chance to hit. Haley dodged 2 darts and 5 arrows inside the antimagic field! If Serini isn't proficient with a blowgun (I'm better with the crossbow), she has 65% chance to hit. Haley had less than a 1 out of 100,000 chance to evade all that! And if Serini has at least 18 Dex (as she obviously should), that becomes 1 in 51 millions! That's an uncomfortable amount of natural ones that she rolled here....
Serini for sure had some unlucky rolls, but your calculations are off.
First, I think the first blowgun dart was directed at Durkon, so Haley dodged the second one.
Second, you're forgetting that each subsequent attack in the same round has a cumulative -5 penalty, so that 5th arrow would have -20 to hit on top of the attack bonus.
I don't think you lowballing Serini is that far off, since although she's epic, she's also elderly. If she's as far as venerable, that means -6 to her Str, Dex and Con compared to her adventuring days, and we don't know if her troll grafts had any impact on her agility.
Would also like to point out that Haley could've taken total defence action instead of fighting defensively (but since she'd shot an arrow immediately prior to dodging, she probably didn't), gaining +4 to AC instead of +2. She could've also just dropped to the ground, since prone targets gain +4 to AC against ranged attacks, but she probably didn't do that too, unless Rich chose to use her jump in the last panel of 1239 to represent that. Had she done both, her AC in AMF would jump to ~27.


You realize this isn't a game, right?
Yes, it's a web comic. About a game. Unequivocally and explicitly about a game. Like, characters all have classes, feats, refer us to a specific ruleset, reference common game tropes, combat takes turns and so on. When someone creates a comic about a game, is it that untenable that people look at it from the gameplay angle too?
And I know that Rich had said that the comic narrative part comes strongly first, that he would bend the narrative framework of the game for a benefit of the storyline. But it's not like I'm coming to the author with "Hey! That doesn't make sense in the game, don't do that"; I explicitly prefaced my comment with the fact that I like the comic and don't have problem with it in general.
The portrayed characters are a party of adventurers. Since I long play D&D as a member of a party of adventurers or as a DM guiding a party through adventure, I empathize with them and feel represented in the comic. And as with any representation in media when I feel the characters are put in an unfair situation, I experience frustration, and so I feel appropriate to express it in the dedicated reaction thread of the dedicated forum. Because in the comic that usually blends game storytelling and comic storytelling so well, this particular instance strikes me as not working from the game point of view at all.

[Barebarian]

Woohoo! Nice split Haley!


These explanations pretty much never hold up to scrutiny, though. Then again, what does in fantasy? And also raise the question of why your story needs your universe to be prejudiced.


Demons being evil isn't prejudice.

[Fyraltari]

Demons being evil isn't prejudice.

Are demons characters? Can they change? Are they evil by choice or by birth?

Edit: Just to be clear we are on the safe side of Da Rulz, we are talking about demons as a fictional group within a constructed world inside a work of entertainment not as religious entities.

[hamishspence]

Fiends are Outsiders with the [Evil] subtype. Demons are a subset of Fiend (those native to a specific plane, the Abyss). [Alignment] subtype creatures tend to be Outsiders, but there are exceptions.

Ruleswise, what the [Evil] subtype does, is ensure that, if such a creature does change alignment, it will still be treated as its original alignment (as well as its new one) for certain specific mechanical purposes.

If you cast Detect Evil on a nonevil fiend it will detect as Evil. If you are a paladin and smite it, your smite will do full damage. And so forth.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Five!

Theres the Avoirdupois pound, London pound, Merchant Pound, Tower pound, and Troy pound.Have the London, merchant, or tower pounds been used in the modern era at all? Wikipedia isn't mentioning anything after 1526 for them.


If we focus on the Avoirdupois pound for simplicity, then we have seven pounds to the nail, two nails to the stone, two stones to the tod (well, two stones to the long tod. Twenty five pounds to the short tod), and, of course, thirteen tods to the sack. Couldn't be simpler!

Correct me if you dare.A nail was a unit of distance, not mass.

There's also the Great British Pound (GBP) which causes some confusionA Great British pound is worth 2.4 Lesser British pounds, right?

[elecampane]

The description of alignment subtypes indeed suggests that aligned outsiders can change alignment, but as beings tied to their native planes will continue to be associated with the alignment of that plane.
At the same time the 3.5 Book of Exalted deeds says in the part about redeeming villains

Of course, good characters recognize that some creatures are utterly beyond redemption. Most creatures described in the Monster Manual as "always evil" are either completely irredeemable or so intimately tied to evil that they are almost entirely hopeless. Certainly demons and devils are best slain, or at least banished, and only a naïve fool would try to convert them.
(it later states that evil dragons have only a bare glimmer of hope, but creatures that are usually evil, such as goblins or orcs, can be redeemed, and gives an example of a redeemed mind flayer)
From yet another standpoint, I think that existence of fallen angels (such as erinyes) proves that aligned outsiders can change alignment along with the associated plane and subtype. And if it can happen in the downward direction, it may be not impossible to happen in reverse.

[Petrocorus]

To get back to the original Mending topic; do the parts have to be correctly placed or could you just sweep up Haley and cast Mending/Make Whole on the pile?

Make Whole on the pile should work fine.



Or for a different analogy; could Mending complete a 5000pc jigsaw in 6seconds?

Nope, because those are 5000 different objects. But one single drawing torn apart in 5000 pieces would be repaired by Make Whole and maybe Mending depending on the mass (less than 1 lb, don't ask me what kind of lb).



There's also the Great British Pound (GBP) which causes some confusion (someone I went to school with worked on a cheese counter, got asked for half a pound of cheese so she cut 50p worth)


Five!

Theres the Avoirdupois pound, London pound, Merchant Pound, Tower pound, and Troy pound.

If we focus on the Avoirdupois pound for simplicity, then we have seven pounds to the nail, two nails to the stone, two stones to the tod (well, two stones to the long tod. Twenty five pounds to the short tod), and, of course, thirteen tods to the sack. Couldn't be simpler!

Correct me if you dare.
At this point this is masochism.



ETA: I did skip over the fact that there's seven thousand grains to the pound and twenty grains to the scruple but the scruple doesn't technically translate to the pound because the drams are different (16 drams to the pound).

How many grains to the ounce and how many ounce to the pound?



Byzantine litra, French livre, German and Austrian Pfund, Russian funt, Skålpund, Portuguese libra and arrátel

From what i remember, there were several French livres before the metric system. This dates back to the middle-age when different market places used different pounds, and a third of nowadays France was probably using Holy Empire units to some extend.

[Peelee]

Have the London, merchant, or tower pounds been used in the modern era at all? Wikipedia isn't mentioning anything after 1526 for them.
I believe my intent on being silly was apparent.

A nail was a unit of distance, not mass.
An archaic usage of the term nail is as a sixteenth of a (long) hundredweight for mass, or 1 clove of 7 pound avoirdupois (3.175 kg) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nail_(unit)).
I did warn about trying to correct me.:smalltongue:

A Great British pound is worth 2.4 Lesser British pounds, right?
https://www.gfycat.com/bleakrealistichairstreak.gif

[Vikenlugaid]

Okay, but...how high level is Haley? The Order has to be in their late teens, right? In order for Haley's Uncanny Dodge to work, Sereni can't be more than 5 levels higher.

And it's not like Sereni doesn't have anything putting her at a disadvantage here. Sunny's distracting her in multiple ways, and she's clearly not had this big a challenge in a while.
Haley is, for 99% sure, the member of the order with highest level. She never died so she is for sure higher than Roy and Durkon, and when the party was splitted she fought like hell while Elan, V and Durkon weren't doing so much fighting, and presumably Belkar did far less than the leader of the resistance, specially being uncapable of hurting living beings in the city.
My guess: Haley is level 18 or close.

[Riftwolf]

A Great British pound is worth 2.4 Lesser British pounds, right?

Pretty sure there's a joke I could make about a British currency thing, but I think it'd be straying into real world politics so will leave that alone.

[The MunchKING]

when the party was splitted she fought like hell while Elan, V and Durkon weren't doing so much fighting,

On the contrary they were fighting the Aquatic Subtype's Greatest hits out there (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html). Pretty much any monster Quar could Charm or Dominate. They even called it out for being far MORE encounters than average.

[Gusion]

Even if she has 21 AC (10+6 Dex (rolled 18+all the points up to lv16 in Dex)+2 leather armor+1 Dodge+2 fighting defensively), she is fighting an epic-level rogue! Seini's to-hit bonus should be higher than her AC! Even if Serini is only level 21, even if she only has 14 Dex (which is extremely implausible), and if her crossbow isn't masterwork or magical (even more unlikely) and she hasn't any magic item to boost her aim, she should have a +18 to hit. 85% chance to hit. Haley dodged 2 darts and 5 arrows inside the antimagic field! If Serini isn't proficient with a blowgun (I'm better with the crossbow), she has 65% chance to hit. Haley had less than a 1 out of 100,000 chance to evade all that! And if Serini has at least 18 Dex (as she obviously should), that becomes 1 in 51 millions! That's an uncomfortable amount of natural ones that she rolled here....

I don't know why you think she has leather armor worth only +2. Non-magical leather armor is worth +2. She's likely rolling in +4/+5 leather armor (since strip 675) for a total of +7. Add another +2 for complete defense not fighting defensively. That brings her to an AC of 28, not including equipment reasonable for a 16-18 level rogue to have... like an amulet of natural armor, gloves of dex, etc. She could have had an effective AC of over +30 pretty easily when outside the anti-magic field.

Serini likely does have magic equipment of her own too, of course. So accounting for her age, maybe around Attack (missile): +23/+18/+13 = 15 [base] +1 [epic] +6 [dexterity] +1 [small]. I'm sure her bow is +5 on top of that and probably has her own +dex gear that counters Haley's.

So Haley going full defense and Serini's advanced age makes it a lot more of an even battle than you're suggesting. She still got some very lucky rolls while in the magic field though, for sure.

[danielxcutter]

Personally I'm fine with the party having to wait for Elan to talk his way into them getting some light, though it seemed like it was extremely one-sided until then.
The inability of the order to get around the AMF didn't need to be that firm, I'd have been perfectly happy if, say, Durkon's hammer managed to bruise Sunny. Something that doesn't scream "unwinnable encounter" sort of a thing.
It's not that the party is falling victim to trump cards that neuter their abilities, but rather that they're falling victim to all of them with few chances to make good headway. A chain of turnarounds may be accurate sometimes, but it isn't particularly fun to watch after a while.
I'm hoping we're done with those for the moment though, and are getting back to good and proper smackery.

Precisely! It’s why I liked the Dining Room Fight better(despite the Order getting their asses stomped in the end) than this fight - even with the entire party down or dominated, Roy could still fight back and did until he took the Flame Strike to the face.

I do suspect the scales are tipped a bit less now, though.

[ORione]

Yes, it's a web comic. About a game. Unequivocally and explicitly about a game. Like, characters all have classes, feats, refer us to a specific ruleset, reference common game tropes, combat takes turns and so on. When someone creates a comic about a game, is it that untenable that people look at it from the gameplay angle too?


It's tenable to, say, point out that the Order was incredibly unlucky to have all of Sunny's eye beams work. But you were claiming that Rich was being unfair to his players. He doesn't have players. He has an audience. A scenario that would be a **** move when presented by a GM in a game can be exciting drama when presented by an author in a story. Complaining that OotS doesn't make a good game strikes me as silly. Like complaining that a rocking horse isn't good transportation.

Unless what you were trying to say wasn't "This is a problem," but "This would be a problem if it were a game," in which case fair enough, and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[Ruck]

It's tenable to, say, point out that the Order was incredibly unlucky to have all of Sunny's eye beams work. But you were claiming that Rich was being unfair to his players. He doesn't have players. He has an audience. A scenario that would be a **** move when presented by a GM in a game can be exciting drama when presented by an author in a story. Complaining that OotS doesn't make a good game strikes me as silly. Like complaining that a rocking horse isn't good transportation.

Unless what you were trying to say wasn't "This is a problem," but "This would be a problem if it were a game," in which case fair enough, and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Agreed with bolded, and what I want to add is that, in a story, it's not necessary to have what is most statistically likely to happen in a D&D game happen for the story to be good. All that's necessary is that what happens is plausible-- and, of course, that it has the appropriate dramatic impact.

[danielxcutter]

I think it's fair to say that if this was a real game, all the players would have walked before we even got to Blood Runs In the Family. From the "if this was a game" viewpoint, Don't Split the Party arguably reads as the DM being sick of the game and trying to kill them all off and deciding to yank the wizard's chain after that.

[DavidSh]

A Great British pound is worth 2.4 Lesser British pounds, right?
These days Less Britain uses the Euro, and immediately before that, the French Franc. While some merchants are likely to have accepted Great British pounds at poor exchange rates, I'm not aware of any pound coins or notes issued in Brittany. (Though I've seen notes issued in Jersey denominated in pounds.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Not at all. I'm pointing out how easy it is to reduce any storytelling to "tropes" if you try hard enough, and what a reductive way that is to look at stories. Thank you. :smallsmile:

Sunny has 9 eyes to see Serini, doesn't need to use the central one. I wasn't gonna say anything. :smallcool:

[Barebarian]

Are demons characters? Can they change? Are they evil by choice or by birth?

Edit: Just to be clear we are on the safe side of Da Rulz, we are talking about demons as a fictional group within a constructed world inside a work of entertainment not as religious entities.

"de•mon dē′mən►
n. An evil supernatural being; a devil."

[Noted!]

[danielxcutter]

Are demons characters? Can they change? Are they evil by choice or by birth?

Edit: Just to be clear we are on the safe side of Da Rulz, we are talking about demons as a fictional group within a constructed world inside a work of entertainment not as religious entities.

When it comes to OotS and D&D in general, yes, usually not a whole lot, and honestly nature is probably the bigger factor in this case, in that order.

Personally I think I've seen Keith Baker say that outsiders can't really be seen as free-willed in Eberron and that kinda makes sense, being literally made of supernatural Evil.

Of course this varies widely between settings/franchises; I've seen at least three separate works where "demon" is a wide brush used for most or all sentient races that aren't allied with humans.

[hamishspence]

From yet another standpoint, I think that existence of fallen angels (such as erinyes) proves that aligned outsiders can change alignment along with the associated plane and subtype. And if it can happen in the downward direction, it may be not impossible to happen in reverse.

Yup. And, indeed, angels can change alignment without "falling all the way" and changing subtype and home plane as well. The Elder Evils splatbook had a fallen planetar, with an Evil alignment, that still had the [Good] subtype - the foremost servant of a demon lord Elder Evil.




Personally I think I've seen Keith Baker say that outsiders can't really be seen as free-willed in Eberron and that kinda makes sense, being literally made of supernatural Evil.

Eberron has a few outsiders that changed alignment. The Quori are an [Evil] outsider race - yet some turned good, and the kalashtar were the result. In Explorer's Handbook (an Eberron book written by Rich Burlew) there is a True Neutral Yugoloth ship captain.

[danielxcutter]

Those tend to be extremely uncommon though, for what it's worth.

[hamishspence]

Those tend to be extremely uncommon though, for what it's worth.The D&D cosmos is so big that even "extremely uncommon" still happens enough to be worth noting.


https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AscendedDemon

Tabletop Games

Dungeons & Dragons:

K'rand Vahlix is a general of the Risen Fiends who have fled to the various Upper Planes, organizing them into the Celestial Hosts, and is so powerful and good-aligned that he is completely unafraid of any Deep Cover Agents that might assassinate him, which is the main obstacle to most Risen Fiends associating with each other.

[danielxcutter]

I'm more saying that they're in the vast minority.

[hamishspence]

Yup - that's what "Always X alignment" means after all - something like less than 1%. Maybe as low as 1 in a million (Savage Species gives that figure).


A few fiends, for one reason or another, have [Usually] or even [Often] for their alignment, and exceptions will be more common for those. The Cambion demon from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits is Often CE, Usually Evil, and 10% are Not Evil.

[danielxcutter]

Yup - that's what "Always X alignment" means after all - something like less than 1%. Maybe as low as 1 in a million (Savage Species gives that figure).


A few fiends, for one reason or another, have [Usually] or even [Often] for their alignment, and exceptions will be more common for those. The Cambion demon from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits is Often CE, Usually Evil, and 10% are Not Evil.

Ironically half-fiends don't even have the Evil subtype and yet are more often Evil than cambions which have even more demon blood.

[Silent Wrangler]

I love the implication that Haley has a magic dye job. I know it’s just a representation of the AMF but it’s still funny.
The funniest thing? She does have (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0752.html).
(I am NOT checking whole thread for same response)

[danielxcutter]

That’s not a dye job or continual effect so an AMF does nothing.

[Fyraltari]

"de•mon dē′mən►
n. An evil supernatural being; a devil."

[Noted!]
You are not answering the questions.

[hamishspence]

Ironically half-fiends don't even have the Evil subtype and yet are more often Evil than cambions which have even more demon blood.

As written, while cambions are usually half-fiend, half tiefling, they can be half-fiend, half Other Planetouched. And the tiefling half, when they are half-tiefling, doesn't have to be demon-blooded - it could be descended from any fiend - hags, devils, yugoloths, divine servants of evil gods, etc.

The normal explanation given for nonevil cambions is "the mother wasn't evil". Possibly when a demon breeds with a nonevil planetouched, the "alignment of the demon" doesn't get passed on to the offspring, due to some weird kind of interference.

[bunsen_h]

And that, people, is why it's important to thouroughly comment and document your code.

There are several aspects to that. One is including blocks of text that explain what the bits of code are doing. Another is to use meaningful variable names, e.g. "probe_speed" instead of "v" or even "speed".

And then there are "magic numbers". Instead of a calculation where a mass is multiplied by 2.2, one would multiply by POUNDS_PER_KILOGRAM, where POUNDS_PER_KILOGRAM has been defined to be 2.2 . This has multiple benefits. There's clarity; it makes it much easier to search for places in the code where that particular kind of conversion has been done (especially if "2.2" is used in other ways, not involving pound/kilogram conversions); it makes it easy to globally change calculations if the conversion factor of pounds/kilograms should happen to change.

I have a colleague who's really bad about using "magic numbers". Yes, it's much faster to just type, say, "0" instead of "menu_number", and it may work fine for a quick test. But it fails if one tries to use any menu but the first one. On a number of occasions, I've been assigned to fix bugs in his work, and when I've asked him for help in parsing his code, he's just told me that it's really complicated, and not worth fixing, and I should just leave it alone. "If you touch it, you'll break it even worse." He can't figure out his own work, just a few months after he's done it. When I struggle through it, changing the "magic numbers" to meaningful variables and defined constants, the bug and its solution become obvious.

ETA: Then there's the legibility factor of including spaces in the code. It's faster to type
momentum=mass*2.2*vel but it's far more legible to have
momentum = mass * POUNDS_PER_KILOGRAM * vel


Make Whole on the pile should work fine.

Nope, because those are 5000 different objects. But one single drawing torn apart in 5000 pieces would be repaired by Make Whole and maybe Mending depending on the mass (less than 1 lb, don't ask me what kind of lb).

A jigsaw puzzle is made by taking a single cardboard-backed picture and cutting it into a bunch of pieces with a cutter shaped like the pieces -- a roller or a stamper. When I spread out a new puzzle, I often find that a few pieces are still attached to each other because the cutter hasn't quite done its job. (In earlier days, such puzzles were backed by wood, and cut apart using a jig saw, hence the name.) So what comes out of the box is N pieces, but they used to be a single object.

[Petrocorus]

There are several aspects to that. One is including blocks of text that explain what the bits of code are doing. Another is to use meaningful variable names, e.g. "probe_speed" instead of "v" or even "speed".
.....

ETA: (Then there's the legibility factor of including spaces in the code. It's faster to type "momentum=mass*2.2*vel" but it's far more legible to have "momentum = mass * POUNDS_PER_KILOGRAM * vel".)

That's actually good to know.



A jigsaw puzzle is made by taking a single cardboard-backed picture and cutting it into a bunch of pieces with a cutter shaped like the pieces -- a roller or a stamper. When I spread out a new puzzle, I often find that a few pieces are still attached to each other because the cutter hasn't quite done its job. (In earlier days, such puzzles were backed by wood, and cut apart using a jig saw, hence the name.) So what comes out of the box is N pieces, but they used to be a single object.
Then that's will be up to the DM.