Haley Teaches the 36 Stratagems (Ongoing Project)

[bt109]

The Thirty-Six Stratagems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-Six_Stratagems) are a set of ancient Chinese axioms for use in politics, war, and civil interaction. They aren't hard and fast rules as much as templates that can be adapted for many different circumstances, and between them they cover a huge assortment of dirty tricks.

And when it comes to dirty tricks, there's no better teacher than Haley. Just for fun I'm searching for examples of Haley demonstrating each of the stratagems, and I'm going to collect them all here in this post. I'd love all the help I can get, but translation may be difficult, so I'll describe what I'd like to see for each, and people can discuss. Alternately, you can just offer an example of a dirty trick, and we'll see if it's a good example of any of them. I know she isn't the only one who has brilliant tactics in this strip, so I'll accept examples of others, but I'd really prefer to see Haley's demonstrations if possible.

Only EIGHT left to go! I've marked them in blue below.
Feel free to find more examples of ones that have already been marked, the more the merrier

Chapter 1: Winning Stratagems

1) Deceive the heavens to cross the ocean
The name is confusing, but in strip 1243 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1243.html), Haley gives a brilliant display of Stratagem #1: an open feint tactic, where you make a very obvious move but hide your real motives. She's obviously going for the bow, but allows her opponents to think she's going to use it as a weapon, so Sunny holds it really tight...which allows Haley to swing from it and knock Sereni off with her feet. She also does this in 716 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html) when the lizardman ducks her kukri, but he wasn't the actual target.

2) Besiege Wèi to rescue Zhào
Solve a problem by threatening something the enemy cares about, like Haley did in 979 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0979.html)with Crystal's kukri.

3) Kill with a borrowed knife
In 980 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0979.html), Haley manipulates Crystal into finding and killing Bozzok.

4) Be prepared and wait for the exhausted enemy
Pretty self explanatory, and she convinces the group of it in 1218 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1218.html).

5) Loot a burning house
This means to take fullest advantage of any misfortune that befalls your enemy. Catching Crystal unarmed in the shower in 648 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html) is an excellent example of this.

6) Make a sound in the east, then strike in the west
She often lets a party member get someone's attention, and then sneak attacks with a flanking bonus. Feel free to offer your favorite.

Chapter 2: Enemy Dealing Stratagems

7) Create something from nothing
In 608 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html), Crystal fell for this one, with the dummy made of flour sacks.

8) Cut a mountain path, but take the secret passage
As opposed to a typical feint (#6) where the enemy has their guard up in the wrong direction, this stratagem has to do with making a show of doing something the hard way, so the enemy will miss a weakness in their defense and let their guard down on an easier way. This is how she set up the "Tetherball Special" in 166 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), by V making a big show of counterspelling a caster who had more spells, when there was a simpler approach available: a direct attack.

9) Watch the fires burning across the river
Did she ever conserve her strength by withholding help to someone? Watch two parties fight while helping neither, so that she could pick which one to support or slay the weakened victor? While she pretended disinterest when Roy battled Thog in the arena (http://https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html), there was never a question of whose side she would pick, so perhaps there's a better example out there. Then again, maybe this stratagem is just too heartless at its core for someone whose loyalty has really never been in question.
Other Teachers: Some interpretations of this stratagem include letting allies go first into a fight, so Xykon and Redcloak do this multiple times, using the hobgoblins (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html)as cannon fodder.

10) Hide a dagger behind a smile
From seducing a goblin teenager in 100 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) to finally befriending Crystal as a golem in 981 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html).

11) Sacrifice the plum tree to preserve the peach tree
This is the scapegoat strategy where someone suffers the consequences so that the rest do not.
904 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0904.html) - Grabs Roy's sword so the elemental will go after her.

12) Take the opportunity to pilfer a goat
Seize every opportunity to make the enemy's property yours, even the smallest piece. She did this when looting Grubwriggler's place while saving Celia, and even nabbed 12 silvers and some pieces of string (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html) just because she could.

Chapter 3: Attacking Stratagems

13) Stomp the grass to scare the snake
Do something unusual, strange, and unexpected to arouse the enemy's suspicion and disrupt their thinking.

14) Borrow a corpse to resurrect the soul
Take an institution, a technology, a method, or even an ideology that has been forgotten or discarded and appropriate it for one's own purposes.
649 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html)has perhaps the best version of this ever!

15) Lure the tiger down the mountain
Lure an enemy out of their physically advantageous position, such as leading the bandit archer to the Order's melee warriors in 151 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0151.html).

16) In order to capture, one must let loose
To prevent the enemy from making a final desperate attack, let them believe they still have a chance for freedom, and their will to fight is hampered by their desire to escape. Haley uses this beautifully against Bozzok when in 618 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0618.html)when she convinces his flankers to flee.

17) Tossing out a brick to get a jade gem
This is where you bait someone by making them believe they gain something valuable ("toss out a brick") to obtain something valuable from them in return ("get a jade gem").

18) Defeat the enemy by capturing their chief
When the enemy are allied to the commander only by money, superstition, or threats, target the leader. Bozzok is the poster child for this one, as shown in 619. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html)

Chapter 4: Chaos Stratagems

19) Remove the firewood from under the pot
Instead of attacking enemy's fighting forces, attack their ability to wage war. Haley does this in 428 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) when she reveals Xykon's duplicates are a shell game, so that the team ignores them and looks for him elsewhere. Also, see 327 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html), where she attacks the enemy's ability to lie.

20) Disturb the water and catch a fish
Create confusion and exploit it to further one's own goals.
858 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html) - Her smokestick throws the Linear Guild completely off balance

21) Give up the golden shell
Avoid drawing unnecessary attention of a powerful force. Haley does this when leading the Resistance, dressed in a ragged cloak with a hood (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html).

22) Shut the door to catch the thief
Cut off your enemy's routes of escape or reinforcement.

23) Befriend a distant state while attacking a neighbor
Nations separated by distance and obstacles make good allies, while neighbors often quarrel. This may be why the elves are the best allies for the Azure City resistance (670) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0533.html), even when their own people squabble (533 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0533.html)).

24) Obtain safe passage
Use borrowed resources against the one that lent you them.

Chapter 5: Proximate Stratagems


25) Replace the beams with rotten timbers
Disrupt the enemy's methods of operations. Haley used this against Sereni in 1243 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1243.html) when she knocked her off Sunny; the halfling's entire strategy was based on being able to attack from above with impunity.

26) Point at the mulberry tree while cursing the locust tree
To control others whose status excludes them from direct confrontation, use analogy.

27) Feign madness but keep your balance
Hide behind a mask of foolishness to create confusion. Haley uses a little of this when convincing the teenage goblin that she was totally in his power (#100 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html)). There's also some of this in her feigning that she's a drunken Thor worshipper.
Other Teachers: Shojo used this far more directly than Haley, though in her defense, she was the first one to spot it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0288.html) (she actually spotted it several panels before that, if you read the translations).

28) Remove the ladder when the enemy is on the roof
Lure your enemy into treacherous terrain, then cut off his communication and escape. Her final destruction of Golem Crystal in 981 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html)uses this approach as she walks her to her doom.

29) Deck the tree with false blossoms
Through the use of artifice and disguise, make something of no value appear valuable.
In 0129 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html): They're just plain ordinary rocks, I'm telling you.

30) Make the host and the guest exchange roles
Take the lower status in a situation when high status is riskiest.
Other Teachers: The hobgoblin supreme leader does this to avoid being killed by Redcloak in 149 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html).

Chapter 6: Defeat Stratagems

31) The honey trap
Send your enemy beautiful gifts to cause discord within his camp. Even if it wasn't her idea, she pulled this off as one of Roy's Angels (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0239.html).
Other Teachers: Elan considers it his solemn duty to seduce female bad guys, it being in the bard charter (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html) and all, but when he tested the grapple rules with Sabine's tongue (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0794.html), it was deliberately to sow discord in the Linear Guild and allow him to escape.

32) The empty fort
Drop all pretense and act calmly so that the enemy will over-think his reaction.

33) Sow discord in the enemy camp
Use humiliation and other social losses to provoke a powerful enemy to act rashly. Making Crystal-golem realize the source of her pain, and the accompanying financial comparison, were enough to turn her against Bozzok in 979 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0979.html). This one was especially clever because she used Crystal to find Bozzok as well as kill him.

34) Inflict injury on yourself
Pretend to be injured so the enemy no longer considers you a threat.
455 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html)- Elan's execution but it was her idea to use an illusion to make the hobgoblins think they'd been killed.

35) Chain stratagems
Keep different plans operating in an overall scheme. Note that when she uses Stratagem #1 against Sereni, she concludes not with a standard physical attack, but by pushing Sereni off Sunni, which is #25. Likewise, after using #10 against Crystal-golem to get her to follow her, she concludes with #28 by luring her to the waste disposal plant. (This is actually the culmination of at least six stratagems against Crystal and Bozzok together.)

36) If all else fails, retreat
Escape is not defeat, as Haley explains in 467 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html).


Questions, feedback, and support are all welcome.

[ShadowSandbag]

I'd have to look at the full list later. But off the top of my head 3 sounds like when she sent Crystal after Bozzok. Neat idea!

[Gluteus_Maximus]

#36: "know when to walk away, know when to run." https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html

Belkar reminds her of it, but it's something she's said before. There are probably many more instances of her running away

[ORione]

Does leading the bandit archer to the Order's melee warriors in 151 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0151.html) qualify as 28?

I don't recall her doing it herself, but 27 was Shojo's shtick, and Haley pointed out that he was doing it in 288 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0288.html).

[Fyraltari]

I think that her looting his castle while Grubwiggler was otherwise preoccupied (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0577.html) could fit (5).

Edit: Attacking Crystal in the bathroom might be a better example.

Also, she's not actually doing it, but Ian expects her to be pulling 27 or 30 here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0769.html).

[Giegas]

Fun idea! I thought of a few. (Account is too new to post hyperlinks to the relevant comics, sorry about that)

11) 904 - Grabs Roy's sword so the elemental will go after her.

19) 618 - I might be misinterpreting this one but I think picking off Bozzock's flankers before confronting him fits

20) 858 - Her smokestick throws the Linear Guild completely off balance

34) 455 - Elan's execution but it was her idea to use an illusion to make the hobgoblins think they'd been killed

[Peelee]

I'd have to look at the full list later. But off the top of my head 3 sounds like when she sent Crystal after Bozzok. Neat idea!

Dangit, I got to "kill with a borrowed knife" and went straight off to find this one (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0979.html) only to find I was far, far too late already!

[Mike Havran]

This is fun, and many fit Haley like a glove.

Her little stone gambit (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html) definitely qualifies as #29.

Her "drunken Thor worshipper (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html)" is close to #27

And this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html)is a glorious example of #14

[Ruck]

Her decision here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) could fit #9, although I could be influenced by the facts that the city is literally on fire and the plan is to get on a boat.

[JNinja]

I think leaving O-Chul behind (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) is a good example of either #9 (conserve strength by not helping) or #11 (scapegoat).

Also in addition to being #36 (know when to run), as already mentioned in the main post, strip 467 is good for #21 (give up the golden shell), see panel 8 where she doesn't want a sorcerer lich all up in her business (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html).

[Riftwolf]

Funny, I found an old notebook with the Strategems written down in my own words to help with writing stories. I have #27 written down as 'Shojo's Gambit'.
#11 may be the Sand Elemental fight where Haley tricked it into attacking her instead of Roy? While the Strategem probably meant 'someone who isn't me', making a scapegoat of yourself to protect a valuable ally sounds like a cunning trick.

[KorvinStarmast]

Brilliant idea for a thread.
Sun Tzu would approve. :smallsmile:


27) Feign madness but keep your balance hide behind a mask of foolishness to create confusion.
I am going to try and find an example of this, there must be at least one

[AvatarVecna]

Brilliant idea for a thread.
Sun Tzu would approve. :smallsmile:


I am going to try and find an example of this, there must be at least one

She pretended to be a Thor worshipper when they were dealing with Tarkin. I also feel like there absolutely has to be a point in the comic where she pretended to be a ditzy girl to get the upper hand on somebody who didn't know her better, but nothing is coming immediately to mind.

EDIT: And while it might not have been on purpose initially, I'm sure she took advantage of her period of "talking in alphabet scramble" at some point to make somebody underestimate her. Surely that happened.

[Emanick]

I also feel like there absolutely has to be a point in the comic where she pretended to be a ditzy girl to get the upper hand on somebody who didn't know her better, but nothing is coming immediately to mind.

Does this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) count?

[AvatarVecna]

Does this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) count?

On the one hand, yes, but on the other hand, "successfully used feminine wiles on a teenage boy" probably isn't the best showcase. Not exactly having to put all her effort in, even if it definitely counts.

[KorvinStarmast]

On the one hand, yes, but on the other hand, "successfully used feminine wiles on a teenage boy" probably isn't the best showcase. Not exactly having to put all her effort in, even if it definitely counts.
It's an example but I think that there may be a better one.

[bt109]

I'd have to look at the full list later. But off the top of my head 3 sounds like when she sent Crystal after Bozzok. Neat idea!

Perfect! Added to the list.


#36: "know when to walk away, know when to run."

Belkar reminds her of it, but it's something she's said before. There are probably many more instances of her running away

Good point. He was quoting her from ten strips earlier, so I put that one in instead.


I don't recall her doing it herself, but 27 was Shojo's shtick, and Haley pointed out that he was doing it in 288.

Yeah, I think that her explaining that someone else is doing it should also qualify. The idea is that she's the teacher, so lecture is as good as a demonstration, and she gives great lectures.


I think that her looting his castle while Grubwiggler was otherwise preoccupied could fit (5).

Edit: Attacking Crystal in the bathroom might be a better example.

Also, she's not actually doing it, but Ian expects her to be pulling 27 or 30 here.

I'll hold off for better examples of 27 and 30, but attacking Crystal in the bathroom is perfect.

[bt109]

Does leading the bandit archer to the Order's melee warriors in 151 qualify as 28?

No, but it counts as #15!

[bt109]

Fun idea! I thought of a few. (Account is too new to post hyperlinks to the relevant comics, sorry about that)

11) 904 - Grabs Roy's sword so the elemental will go after her.

19) 618 - I might be misinterpreting this one but I think picking off Bozzock's flankers before confronting him fits

20) 858 - Her smokestick throws the Linear Guild completely off balance

34) 455 - Elan's execution but it was her idea to use an illusion to make the hobgoblins think they'd been killed

I agree with all but #19. Really, you could argue that Celia used #19 against Bozzok when she removed the reason to hunt down Haley.

That being said, I don't intend to be the sole arbiter of these, so I look forward to getting some links up to various translations so we can discuss.

[brian 333]

Brilliant idea for a thread.
Sun Tzu would approve. :smallsmile:


I am going to try and find an example of this, there must be at least one

The teenaged goblin who captured her in Dorukon's dungeon.

Edit: ninja'd before I even posted. Lesson: read entire thread before responding.

[Peelee]

Brilliant idea for a thread.
Sun Tzu would approve. :smallsmile:

27) Feign madness but keep your balance hide behind a mask of foolishness to create confusion.

I am going to try and find an example of this, there must be at least one

When she divided the treasure equally between everyone else and planned to only giving herself five pebbles, resulting in everyone else getting a worthless pebble and her getting a larger cut of the treasure?

[Neponde]

12) Take the opportunity to pilfer a goat
Pine scented goat (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html)

6) Make a sound in the east, then strike in the west
Her three favorite words (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0398.html)

21) Give up the golden shell
Or, the now shattered blue shell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html)


When she divided the treasure equally between everyone else and planned to only giving herself five pebbles, resulting in everyone else getting a worthless pebble and her getting a larger cut of the treasure?

I think this scene is better suited to 17) Tossing out a brick to get a jade gem

[ORione]

When she divided the treasure equally between everyone else and planned to only giving herself five pebbles, resulting in everyone else getting a worthless pebble and her getting a larger cut of the treasure?


I think this scene is better suited to 17) Tossing out a brick to get a jade gem

It could also be considered an example of 13. Taking none of the gold for herself was certainly unexpected, and it did arouse Roy and Durkon's suspicions.

[bt109]

12) Pine scented goat

6) Her three favorite words

21) Give up the golden shell, Or the now shattered blue shell

I agree with the sneak attack, but the others need improvement. The "goat" represents a theft based wholly on opportunity, not something she strongly desires. It's more low-effort, like, "while I'm passing through enemy territory, let me just grab this little trinket while I can."
EDIT: Just realized that my previous summary of this one may have put higher emphasis on the trifling nature of the prize than the opportunism. The point is, when the opportunity strikes, take what you can EVEN IF it's something close to worthless. Every time you steal from the enemy, you make them weaker and yourself stronger, so steal whenever you can.

And the "golden shell" refers to disguising herself as someone unimportant, whether by removing obvious ornaments or putting on more common clothes.


I think this scene is better suited to 17) Tossing out a brick to get a jade gem

That's where I had it originally; I think I may put it up for a vote.

[Riftwolf]

Would looting Grubwiggler when she was saving Celia count as goat pilfering?

[Michaeler]

I'm pretty sure 25 literally just happenned. Serini's operations were reliant on the ability to float, which has been denied her.

As for 31, might I be so bold as to suggest a time it was done for her, not by her, while she was stone? Because I think 794 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0794.html) is about as blatant as you can get.

[bt109]

Her decision here could fit #9, although I could be influenced by the facts that the city is literally on fire and the plan is to get on a boat.

I'm confused; Haley isn't even in that strip.

[bt109]

I'm pretty sure 25 literally just happenned. Serini's operations were reliant on the ability to float, which has been denied her.

Great point! She didn't just attack Sereni, she pushed her off Sunny, which was a huge tactical advantage. Given that, this may be our best use of a Chain Stratagem (35)


As for 31, might I be so bold as to suggest a time it was done for her, not by her, while she was stone? Because I think 794 is about as blatant as you can get.

I'll allow it, at least until we can get a better example from her directly.

[bt109]

Would looting Grubwiggler when she was saving Celia count as goat pilfering?

I think it would--low effort on her part, and it was incidental to the rest of the mission saving Celia. My description focused too much on the low value, it should have said EVEN if it's something small and meaningless.

[georgie_leech]

On (goat) thefts of opportunity (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html)

[Ruck]

I'm confused; Haley isn't even in that strip.

I'm also confused, because that is not the strip I linked. I'm guessing my phone "corrected" the URL once again. The strip I was trying to reference was this one (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html).

[bt109]

I'm also confused, because that is not the strip I linked. I'm guessing my phone "corrected" the URL once again. The strip I was trying to reference was this one (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html).

Ah, I wondered if that was the one! It's tempting to call that for #9, but it's really not the best example. While she briefly suggests that the Azurites could stay and fight without them, her behavior before and after indicates that she preferred to remain their ally. #9 best fits a situation where two forces are fighting, and one or both invite her to be their ally, but she declines or delays to see who gets the upper hand. "You fellows have at each other, I'm sitting this out for now."

[bt109]

Alright, I think I caught everyone's suggestions, and there's links to everything. Lots of these are open to discussion, so feel free to comment if you see anything you disagree with.

Anyone have any favorite dirty tricks to offer up for sorting?

[RickDaily12]

8) Cut a mountain path, but take the secret passage
Did she ever make it look like she was doing something the hard way, so the enemy would let their guard down?

I'm sure the hobgoblins thought running away would be easier for her, especially right before that tower came down. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html)


9) Watch fires burning across the river
Did she ever conserve her strength by withholding help to someone? Watch two parties fight while helping neither?

Yes, and she had to play it cool too, to avoid Tarquin from catching on. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html)


10) Hide a dagger behind a smile

So, my understanding is that the true meaning behind this stratagem is "charm your opponent while plotting behind their back in secret". If true, then this is again basically any scene that involved Haley being in the same room with Tarquin.

She's civil enough during a moment like this, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html) while she's more than happy to secretly undermine her enemy the very next day... (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html)


13) Stomp the grass to scare the snake
Do something unusual, strange, and unexpected to arouse the enemy's suspicion and disrupt their thinking.

How about telling your hated enemy that you're going to miss something about them out of the blue? Pique their curiosity so much that they unwittingly follow you to their certain doom. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html)


16) In order to capture, one must let loose
To prevent the enemy from making a final desperate attack, let them believe they still have a chance for freedom, and their will to fight is hampered by their desire to escape.

Okay, so, hear me out...

What if acting like she was allowing the chimera to escape was part of an elaborate ruse? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html) :smallbiggrin:


17) Tossing out a brick to get a jade gem
This is where you bait someone by making them believe they gain something valuable ("toss out a brick") to obtain something valuable from them in return ("get a jade gem").

Deliberately without going into great detail about what the "brick" here is, the "jade gem" I'd argue is her freedom. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html)


19) Remove the firewood from under the pot
Take out the leading argument or asset of someone; "steal someone's thunder". This is the essence of the indirect approach: instead of attacking enemy's fighting forces, direct attacks against their ability to wage war. Literally, take the fuel out of the fire.

For example, when your enemy is trying to kill you and your friends using the power of deception, rob them of the ability to deceive you. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html)


22) Shut the door to catch the thief
Cut off your enemy's routes of escape or reinforcement.

Which she does here, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1054.html) by tasking the party's sadistic murderer with killing any remaining enemies that managed to escape her and the wizard.


23) Befriend a distant state while attacking a neighbor
Nations separated by distance and obstacles make good allies.

Well, she certainly (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html) TRIED (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0533.html) to pit two rebelling nations against the oppressive ruling one on multiple occasions...


24) Obtain safe passage
Use borrowed resources against the one that lent you them.

Just asking for a friend: under a typical Rogue's code of conduct, this counts as "borrowing" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0721.html), right? :smallwink:


27) Feign madness but keep your balance
Hide behind a mask of foolishness to create confusion.

This again. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html)


31) The honey trap
Send your enemy beautiful gifts to cause discord within his camp.

Not really sure if it was her plan to begin with, or if it even matters, since she was still part of this... (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0239.html)

[PontificatusRex]

Well, when Haley lured Crystal to the volcano it can qualify as a lot of these strategies, but it seems to be an example of 10) Hide a dagger behind a smile more than anything.

[bt109]

Well, when Haley lured Crystal to the volcano it can qualify as a lot of these strategies, but it seems to be an example of 10) Hide a dagger behind a smile more than anything.
Yeah, I had 981 in that position originally, but it's also the best example of #28 I can find, so I moved it hoping to find another #10. I was originally thinking that having one in both places was a bad thing, but that's just leading to too many complications. Both places it is, AND it's a chain stratagem. I can't help it if she's awesome so often.

[KorvinStarmast]

I can't help it if she's awesome so often.Yeah, brings a lot to the party. (Yes, pun intended).

[Kornaki]

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html

Watching fires burn across the river. Almost literally true here.

[DaOldeWolf]

17) Tossing out a brick to get a jade gem
This is where you bait someone by making them believe they gain something valuable ("toss out a brick") to obtain something valuable from them in return ("get a jade gem").


I think 129 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html) is a good example for this one. She tricks them into taking rocks for treasure.

[bt109]

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html

Watching fires burn across the river. Almost literally true here.

Yes, others have said that, but I'm not seeing it. Watching the fires burn is about allowing two enemies to fight it out while you remain neutral as long as possible. Not only has she not been neutral, but she's not faced with a choice of changing sides here, only of fighting vs. running.

[Kornaki]

Yes, others have said that, but I'm not seeing it. Watching the fires burn is about allowing two enemies to fight it out while you remain neutral as long as possible. Not only has she not been neutral, but she's not faced with a choice of changing sides here, only of fighting vs. running.

Well your original post asked if she ever conserved strength by withholding help to someone. But I agree if it's specifically about letting other people wear each other out this doesn't work.

Maybe you could do something with Haley letting crystal expend her strength raiding grubblewhathisname's place, then shanking her in the shower.

[MilleniaAntares]

Nice list!



5) Loot a burning house
This means to take fullest advantage of any misfortune that befalls your enemy. Catching Crystal unarmed in the shower in 648 is an excellent example of this.
The link to 648 leads to 618 instead. You might want to fix it.

[Draconi Redfir]

5) Loot a burning house
This means to take fullest advantage of any misfortune that befalls your enemy. Catching Crystal unarmed in the shower in 648 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0618.html) is an excellent example of this.

you got the wrong link here. This is the correct one (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html).

[RickDaily12]

Yes, others have said that, but I'm not seeing it. Watching the fires burn is about allowing two enemies to fight it out while you remain neutral as long as possible. Not only has she not been neutral, but she's not faced with a choice of changing sides here, only of fighting vs. running.

:smallconfused:

Can you cite to me where exactly the stratagem states both parties having to be enemies? Or where Haley has to switch sides in the battle? This is the trope as I've located it. (http://changingminds.org/disciplines/warfare/36_strategems/36_stratagems_9.htm)

This is the trope as you've written it:

9) Watch fires burning across the river
Did she ever conserve her strength by withholding help to someone? Watch two parties fight while helping neither?

This is the trope as they have written it:

When there are multiple combatants, let others fight one another until they are exhausted, then march in with a fresh force to win the final battle.
This can also be used when you are in an alliance by putting the allies in the front or giving them the harder battles to fight.

I again present this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html) (or its following) as an example that satisfies both texts.

Not only does she remain neutral during this fight, she must appear this way, to avoid letting Tarquin become wise to why they need to leave, which is another complex part to the whole conflict. Reading further in the text you've given, and that I've cited, this only seems to fit appropriately under the circumstances.

[georgie_leech]

:smallconfused:

Can you cite to me where exactly the stratagem states both parties having to be enemies? Or where Haley has to switch sides in the battle? This is the trope as I've located it. (http://changingminds.org/disciplines/warfare/36_strategems/36_stratagems_9.htm)

This is the trope as you've written it:


This is the trope as they have written it:


I again present this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html) (or its following) as an example that satisfies both texts.

Not only does she remain neutral during this fight, she must appear this way, to avoid letting Tarquin become wise to why they need to leave, which is another complex part to the whole conflict. Reading further in the text you've given, and that I've cited, this only seems to fit appropriately under the circumstances.

I'm gonna submit that the strategem has more to do with achieving military/political goals at the expense of others, not your own team mates. Otherwise Sun Tzu's advice becomes trivial in a warfare context, as you've got soldiers fighting, not you. There's a distinction between you/your resources and your allies in the sense of groups, not in the sense of "this person is my ally because we're on the same team."

That is, her literal team mates fighting a battle with their enemies doesn't qualify as watching fires burn across the river, especially when she immediately moves to the other side of the river to try and figure out what her enemies are doing (she skedaddles to get intel but is ambushed and turned to stone by said enemies). That's just being in the fight.

[RickDaily12]

I'm gonna submit that the strategem has more to do with achieving military/political goals at the expense of others, not your own team mates. Otherwise Sun Tzu's advice becomes trivial in a warfare context, as you've got soldiers fighting, not you. There's a distinction between you/your resources and your allies in the sense of groups, not in the sense of "this person is my ally because we're on the same team."

That is, her literal team mates fighting a battle with their enemies doesn't qualify as watching fires burn across the river, especially when she immediately moves to the other side of the river to try and figure out what her enemies are doing (she skedaddles to get intel but is ambushed and turned to stone by said enemies). That's just being in the fight.

I'd be more inclined to agree if an example of the text were not "send an ally to fight on the front/ a harder fight", while also appearing neutral. Also, the fight she strictly remains neutral in is the fight between Roy and Thog, which she successfully appears neutral as such; she cannot intervene in this battle at all (thus she isn't "crossing the river" in that exact battle), but she can prepare against an ambush from other Linear Guild forces.

And remember, Sun Tzu's advice isn't always to take the most direct approach from a fighting perspective. There's plenty of subtle maneuvers he lists in these 36 tactics, more passive, yet shrewdly clever moves. This is a particular one I think we can suggest he's saying you can be more subtle in compared to others.

[Peelee]

I agree that 788 is not a good example of that. Haley is not sending anyone to anything; the fight is already happening, so the "send an ally" is out. The fight is between her own teammates and the Linear Guild, so she is not letting another party fight while she waits for them to be weakened, she is a part of the party herself. She is not in a position to just jump in or strategically wait - she is a guest at a state function in a state where the most minor crimes are prosecuted with effective death sentences. She can hardly be expected to join in on Roy vs Thog. And she herself tries to engage with other members of the Linear Guild as soon as she can.

This is, in effect, as unlike that stratagem as it could be.

[Fyraltari]

And remember, Sun Tzu's advice isn't always to take the most direct approach from a fighting perspective. There's plenty of subtle maneuvers he lists in these 36 tactics, more passive, yet shrewdly clever moves. This is a particular one I think we can suggest he's saying you can be more subtle in compared to others.

Master Sun is the author of Sun Tzu's Art of War, also sometimes called The Twelve Scrolls. The Thirty-Six Stratagems was penned by Tan Daoji.

[RickDaily12]

Master Sun is the author of Sun Tzu's Art of War, also sometimes called The Twelve Scrolls. The Thirty-Six Stratagems was penned by Tan Daoji.

:smallconfused: Okay, thanks, but my response here was to someone else who credited Sun Tzu first in the context of this stratagem. So, the same, just substitute Tan Daoji's name then. :smallredface:


I agree that 788 is not a good example of that. Haley is not sending anyone to anything; the fight is already happening, so the "send an ally" is out. The fight is between her own teammates and the Linear Guild, so she is not letting another party fight while she waits for them to be weakened, she is a part of the party herself. She is not in a position to just jump in or strategically wait - she is a guest at a state function in a state where the most minor crimes are prosecuted with effective death sentences. She can hardly be expected to join in on Roy vs Thog. And she herself tries to engage with other members of the Linear Guild as soon as she can.

This is, in effect, as unlike that stratagem as it could be.

Haley is going out of her way to give the appearance of neutrality in the Roy vs Thog towards Tarquin, though. She makes it clear to V and Elan also that they can't intervene in that particular fight at all. It's the appearance of neutrality of the fight only between Roy and Thog I'd suggest doesn't violate the spirit of the stratagem, even if the reality is that the Order realizes that an ambush with the remaining members of the Linear Guild was incoming. I don't really care about the rest of the members of the Linear Guild, though; I'm focusing only on the conflict between Roy and Thog here. The stratagem calls for an appearance of neutrality in the face of a battle in front of you, and that was what Haley/the others were forced to do here.

Now, in complete fairness, you're right- I'm doubtful a world exists that Haley/Elan/V do anything extra regardless of how that fight resolves, were they to stay and watch Roy and Thog's fight, but is that a necessary element of this particular stratagem? If no, then I think what they did qualifies as this, but if yes, then fine, we can move on.

[Peelee]

:smallconfused: Okay, thanks, but my response here was to someone else who credited Sun Tzu first in the context of this stratagem. So, the same, just substitute Tan Daoji's name then. :smallredface:



Haley is going out of her way to give the appearance of neutrality in the Roy vs Thog towards Tarquin, though. She makes it clear to V and Elan also that they can't intervene in that particular fight at all. It's the appearance of neutrality of the fight only between Roy and Thog I'd suggest doesn't violate the spirit of the stratagem, even if the reality is that the Order realizes that an ambush with the remaining members of the Linear Guild was incoming. I don't really care about the rest of the members of the Linear Guild, though; I'm focusing only on the conflict between Roy and Thog here. The stratagem calls for an appearance of neutrality in the face of a battle in front of you, and that was what Haley/the others were forced to do here.

That's fair, but that also pulls a third (or fourth, depending) part into the mix, and a second enemy that is not involved in the fight, which makes it a significantly more complex situation.

Im old, so Halo: Combat Evolved reference here: I see that stratagem as the Final Run segment in Keys, where the Covenant and Flood are fighting each other and you can bypass them as they duke it out amongst themselves or wait until one of them has won and have an easier time picking off the survivors.

In this case, Haley has no interest at all in fighting, does not want both the fighters to whittle themselves down, and is only appearing impartial to a completely separate party who is pretty clearly an enemy, even if she needs to feign peace at the moment. I get where you're coming from, it's just this situation has way more variables and relationships between parties, and I think a simpler and more direct example would be better.

[bt109]

Alright, I think I have the original post up to date with everyone's suggestions. We're down to the final ten, now highlighted for your convenience! What other cool tricks can you find?

[Fyraltari]

Alright, I think I have the original post up to date with everyone's suggestions. We're down to the final ten, now highlighted for your convenience! What other cool tricks can you find?

I think red is reserved for mods acting as such, so you should probably use another color.

[Ruck]

Could Haley laying out the situation for Crystal (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0979.html) to provoke her into attacking Bozzok be an example of #33?

[Darth Paul]

It seems to me that Haley's fight with the Thieves' Guild fits


18) Defeat the enemy by capturing their chief
When the enemy are allied to the commander only by money, superstition, or threats, target the leader.

Neutralizing Bozzok as their leader put the rest of the Guild in a position where they could make a deal (even though Celia actually offered the deal, it's highly doubtful if Bozzok would have accepted anything less than Haley's death). Bozzok ruled mostly through terrorizing the rest of the Guild, once he was out of action his revenge motivation no longer controlled the rest.

[bt109]

Could Haley laying out the situation for Crystal (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0979.html) to provoke her into attacking Bozzok be an example of #33?
She really does chain a bunch together right there, doesn't she? Okay, I'm rearranging that to include #33, but I'm thinking that may also be the best Chain Stratagem yet.


It seems to me that Haley's fight with the Thieves' Guild fits



Neutralizing Bozzok as their leader put the rest of the Guild in a position where they could make a deal (even though Celia actually offered the deal, it's highly doubtful if Bozzok would have accepted anything less than Haley's death). Bozzok ruled mostly through terrorizing the rest of the Guild, once he was out of action his revenge motivation no longer controlled the rest.

Wow, that one was a blinding flash of the obvious. Thanks!

[DaOldeWolf]

I am not 100% I understood number #32 correctly but wouldnt the newest comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1250.html)be an example of it?

[Fyraltari]

I am not 100% I understood number #32 correctly but wouldnt the newest comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1250.html)be an example of it?

According to legend, during the War of the Three Kingdoms (on the top of my head, feel free to correct me), one general of great fame found himself protecting a city with a severely deplete contigent. An enemy army vastly outnumbering his came to the city. Knowing that he couldn't beat them in a fight, the general ordered his few men to hide after opening wide the main gates of the city. When the enemy scouts reached the city, they found him sitting atop of the gates leading to an apparently empty city, playing the flute with no apparent concern. Fearing a trap the the army's leader decided not to attack the town. And before he changed his mind the general received reinforcements that made the city impregnable when it was ripe for the taking before.

That's stratagem #32. Overplay your weakness but act confidently so that the enemy will suspect a trap where there is none.

[georgie_leech]

According to legend, during the War of the Three Kingdoms (on the top of my head, feel free to correct me), one general of great fame found himself protecting a city with a severely deplete contigent. An enemy army vastly outnumbering his came to the city. Knowing that he couldn't beat them in a fight, the general ordered his few men to hide after opening wide the main gates of the city. When the enemy scouts reached the city, they found him sitting atop of the gates leading to an apparently empty city, playing the flute with no apparent concern. Fearing a trap the the army's leader decided not to attack the town. And before he changed his mind the general received reinforcements that made the city impregnable when it was ripe for the taking before.

That's stratagem #32. Overplay your weakness but act confidently so that the enemy will suspect a trap where there is none.

See Also: Blue MtG players with two mana left and at least one card in hand :smallamused:

[Brother Oni]

According to legend, during the War of the Three Kingdoms (on the top of my head, feel free to correct me), one general of great fame found himself protecting a city with a severely deplete contigent. An enemy army vastly outnumbering his came to the city. Knowing that he couldn't beat them in a fight, the general ordered his few men to hide after opening wide the main gates of the city. When the enemy scouts reached the city, they found him sitting atop of the gates leading to an apparently empty city, playing the flute with no apparent concern. Fearing a trap the the army's leader decided not to attack the town. And before he changed his mind the general received reinforcements that made the city impregnable when it was ripe for the taking before.

That's stratagem #32. Overplay your weakness but act confidently so that the enemy will suspect a trap where there is none.

That's Zhuge Liang pulling fast one over Sima Yi. Zhuge Liang had built up such a reputation for being a sneaky so-and-so, that when he died prematurely on a campaign, he had left instructions to use his corpse as a rearguard action to let the rest of the army escape successfully (which again worked on the now overcautious Sima Yi).

[bt109]

I am not 100% I understood number #32 correctly but wouldnt the newest comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1250.html)be an example of it?

I can see why you'd think that, but as others have pointed out, this stratagem isn't so much calling someone's bluff, as making as specific kind of bluff of your own, pretending that everything is normal so that the enemy will anticipate a trap and withdraw.

In other news, I've improved the formatting and added some "other teachers" with Xykon and Elan teaching certain things. Everyone is welcome to recommend stratagems used by anyone now.

[Corian]

In other news, I've improved the formatting and added some "other teachers" with Xykon and Elan teaching certain things. Everyone is welcome to recommend stratagems used by anyone now.

Good idea to expand. At the risk of being completely obvious, Shojo is the prime teacher of #27.
(ETA: Ah, and I thought to mention #743 but it was already there.)

[Kornaki]

Somehow this isn't in for 17 yet

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html

[Quizatzhaderac]

I think comic 129 works much better as an example of the empty fort stratagem (32).

Stratagem #17 depends on your opponent not thinking much, where as #32 depends on them overthinking, which Roy clearly does in comic 129.

[Squire Doodad]

Does Crystal's knife count as a very roundabout version of #24? :smallbiggrin:

[dsollen]

For startegem 17 I'd say comic 129 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html), where she tricks roy and the others to give her more gold in exchange for getting worthless rocks is no only counts it's nearly practically taking the stratagem title literally.

For stratagem 13 I can't think of Haley doing it, but her boy-toy Elan does it all the time, if mostly by accident. I'm sure we could find a good alternate example of Elan doing this to add.