Roy Greenhilt is useless? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Niveus Candidus

2021-09-08, 12:17 AM

The recent fight with Serini has me questioning Roy's value to the team. While I do not hold it against him that he failed his poison saving throw, which seems to be in the Epic scores, I struggle to remember his victories even when positioned against an opponent in his chosen area of expertise: Melee Combat. Off the top of my head, he threw a disinterested and overconfident Xykon into the gate, watched a half-ogre walk off a cliff and tricked a half-orc so legendarily low on INT he was manipulated by Elan to take a fight he was losing badly. Other than that, he seems to have been brutalized in every encounter, with the struggle against the frost giants being a particularly embarrassing showing. I understand Tarquin was Epic and Roy has a level loss to a 9th level spell to the face and a lot of d6s of falling damage but could we see him at least hold his own for a few moments before the old man tosses him in a circle like a rag doll. or let him get a few hits in before the Monk-Paladin fury of slap-smites him around? Or just let him succeed at the fort save against the summoned Nightcrawler?

On top of that, I have come to highly question his leadership talents. There are rules of comedy for every wacky way the Order have gotten into but we're at the point where the story seems to focus on Roy needing to take advice from Vampires, a Bard with a puppet who's supposed to be the comedic relief and finally Haley, who is really showing her value to the team after holding things together for the entirety of Don't Split the Party.

So I'll ask, since there are few communities with better statistical analysis than this: does Roy add value to the Order, now that they have their mission and his blood oath isn't the driving motivation any longer or is Greenhilt the Fighter the Truenamer of the group?

brian 333

2021-09-08, 01:49 AM

To be fair, the entire party has bungled its way to the top. That seems to be their schtick. You have called out Roy for something they all do.

Peelee

2021-09-08, 06:31 AM

The tank is useless because he has done a lot of tanking?

hroþila

2021-09-08, 06:44 AM

Xykon was disinterested and overconfident, but that was still Roy single-handedly defeating an Epic lich.
It's easy to trick Thog, it's harder to trick him in the right way that leads to your victory.
He got Smite-slapped around by Miko when he was brandishing a big stick, but easily beat her when he had his sword (true, she wasn't a paladin anymore, but as Roy pointed out, the two factors contributed).
Both his fighting skill and his leadership contributed to the Order pushing back Tarquin & co. from the pyramid. Tarquin acknowledged this.
I'd say the fight against the frost giants was a perfect example of Roy doing well? He tanked both of them, managed to kill one of them and even after he lost his weapon he came out on top (with Elan's help).
And listening to his teammates and respecting their input is a good thing. Ever since he started doing it, Roy has been remarkably good at discerning between good and bad input from the likes of Elan and Belkar. I don't see the issue here.

I dunno, I feel like you're cherrypicking.

r2d2go

2021-09-08, 06:46 AM

The tank is useless because he has done a lot of tanking?

I mean in this instance, he hasn't. He went down in a single round to poison; Haley has been demonstrably much better at tanking here.

I would argue if your purpose is being a literal bag of meat to tank hits, and you can't even do that consistently, you're pretty useless.

That said, I disagree with the OP as well - Roy nearly solo'd the encounter against two leveled frost giants, one of which is stronger than the other, which has to be at least EL 13; as a 14th level character that's winning deadly fights, CR-wise. Of course, CR is terrible, but so is everyone's build. He also has a dedicated anti-undead build - in the vampire fight he very nearly won single handedly after half the party got wiped, and that was against the entire rest of his party plus more vampires. Given that one of the main conflicts coming up if they win this is against Xykon, I expect him to perform much better against his favored type of enemy.

enq

2021-09-08, 06:51 AM

:belkar: You're damn right he is!

danielxcutter

2021-09-08, 06:59 AM

I do suppose this fight was designed to make the non-Roy non-caster members of the party shine, but I do wish there’d been a better way to do that than poison. Yes, there wasn’t really a better way, but frankly the only reason this fight isn’t already over is because Serini wasted the first half of the ambush shooting 90% of her bolts at Haley. If that poison can drop Roy, she’d be able to take out the entire rest of the Order in two rounds, tops, and then Sunny’d be able to drop boulders on her or something.

I do wonder why she focused that much on dropping Haley. Even if the full casters are useless in an AMF, making sure Belkar(a ranger with throwing daggers) was out of the fight for good wouldn’t have been too hard.

Peelee

2021-09-08, 07:01 AM

I mean in this instance, he hasn't. He went down in a single round to poison; Haley has been demonstrably much better at tanking here.

I would argue if your purpose is being a literal bag of meat to tank hits, and you can't even do that consistently, you're pretty useless.

He does do it pretty consistently, though. This is one of the incredibly few, if only, instances where he doesn't. Not being able to do something literally 100% of the time is hardly a failing.

Not that I'm saying that is his sole purpose of course, but he does fulfill that role well in addition to the other rolls he occupies.

King of Nowhere

2021-09-08, 07:10 AM

Precure

2021-09-08, 07:11 AM

littlebum2002

2021-09-08, 07:26 AM

The tank is useless because he has done a lot of tanking?

And apparently he's a bad leader because he listens to other people for advice. Even though literally every "advice for leaders" column ever written has this as one of the best things a leader can do.

Liquor Box

2021-09-08, 07:44 AM

Roy:

Was the last member of the party standing in the fight against the Vampires.
Was on top in the fight against the frost giants.
Was getting the better of Vampire Durkon one on one
Defeated Thog one on one
Defeated Belkar one on one
Captured the Linear Guild wizard
Defeated Sabine
Killed an Owlbear
Defeated fallen Miko
Defeated Half Ogre

He did lose a few as well (Xykon killed him, Tarquin's party had him beat, serini has him unconscious), but often to enemies that were simply more powerful than him. I might be missing a couple, but it seems to be only this time that he's out of action in a fight he should be doing well in - but everyone rolls a one every now and then.

I'd say that Elan is the least combat effective of the Order, probably followed by Hayley

Emanick

2021-09-08, 08:17 AM

don't forget the durkula fight. roy faced a high level cleric vampire and held his own, even before activating superpowers and winning.

in fact, i'd say roy being disabled so often is exactly a measure of how useful he is. when rich disables a character, he wants that character out because he could solve the plot too easily. notice how often the casters are removed from action - with V skipping the Girard gate sequence entirely. roy failing his saving throw against poison, roy losing his sword against the giants, roy being isolated from the rest of the party and stuck in the arena against thog (and without his weapon), all those point to roy being able to solve the problems too easily if he had not been gimped by story reasons

I'd argue that the truth is slightly different. Roy isn't exactly overpowered, so he's not necessarily at risk of solving the plot too easily (with some exceptions - "isolate Roy because he could solve the plot too easily" is explicitly Nale's plan (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0351.html) at one point). That said, the comic is a visual medium and there's only so many ways you can depict somebody fighting with a sword to overcome enemies. It's generally more interesting to watch Roy figure out how to overcome enemies by thinking on his feet than it is to watch him simply swing a sword around, and when he lacks a sword or is otherwise at a disadvantage, you get a chance to see him at his best - being forced to use his brain to figure out how best to address the problem in front of him, then using his body to physically dismember whatever is standing in his way. :smallamused:

For instance, the arena fight against Thog wouldn't have been a cakewalk even if Roy had had his sword, but if he had, it would have come across as a pretty even fight with no obvious twists. It was entertaining largely because Roy was working with the handicap of having poor equipment (a mediocre weapon that he hadn't specialized in and no armor - both factors that hurt him more than they hurt Thog) and had to puzzle out how to overcome this structural disadvantage. Similarly, the fight against the silicon elemental and the vampires' summoned fiends wasn't really a situation where Roy had to be nerfed, but it was more entertaining as a result of the fact that Roy had to keep switching weapons to take on the enemy. I still remember the mix of emotions I felt when I watched him be reduced to fighting with a coffin lid in a desperate attempt to keep his party alive, and yet still do pretty well with it. Really, that whole extended fight sequence at the climax of Book 5 is a masterpiece of action and drama.

The current situation is a bit different, granted, because Roy is not just disadvantaged, he's out of the fight altogether. That's sad, but it does give the rest of the party more space to shine. If Roy were still up, Haley would probably be trying to coordinate with him rather than just doing her own thing out of necessity, but since he's down, we get to see what might be my favorite-ever example of her thinking on her feet and tackling the problem, shall we say, kinetically.

Metastachydium

2021-09-08, 08:35 AM

Quartz

2021-09-08, 08:40 AM

Didn't Roy also defeat a whole heap of mummies?

Emanick

2021-09-08, 08:41 AM

(I'm more worried about Belkar, personally. He's a melee powerhouse and he can basically just steamroll ludicrous amounts of opponents without breaking a sweat, but boss fights are not his forte (he doesn't tend to fare well against major named antagonists, the only two exceptions I can think of right now are his defeating Miko in WaXP and his effortlessly handling both Bozzok and Crystal, and then wiping the floor with the latter in DStP), and this book promises to be heavy on boss fights while I can't quite see where an army of mooks he could plow through could appear 'round the pole.)

I think he and Bloodfeast will probably wind up going toe-to-toe against Oona. He can't do much against Xykon, and Redcloak would probably be able to disable him easily (although a Mind Blank spell on him seems like it would go a long way), but he and his allosaurus should be capable of doing significant damage against a bugbear Beast Master. In a game I doubt he'd be favored, but the narrative has some flexibility when it comes to the Belkster.

Fish

2021-09-08, 09:56 AM

This is a story. And this is a scene in a story which is not, at least for now, designed to highlight the effectiveness of Roy. It may be designed to highlight the amount the team has improved since the last time they faced an encounter without Roy, I dunno. But a story is a made thing, not a demonstration of tactics and probability in a real situation.

ORione

2021-09-08, 12:28 PM

The Order accomplished basically nothing for months while Roy was dead.

Manga Shoggoth

2021-09-08, 12:40 PM

The Order accomplished basically nothing for months while Roy was dead.

Ran an underground resistance movement; preserved the life of an important leader and ally; killed an ancient dragon; all but overthrew a thieves guild; resurrected their missing member...

Yes, I agree. They did bog all over that period. It's a good thing someone else was able to resurrect Roy, or they would never amount to anything again.

Peelee

2021-09-08, 01:09 PM

Manga Shoggoth

2021-09-08, 01:52 PM

The knew what the Gates were, their global importance, and that Xykon/Redcloak wants to control them.

Nothing they did during that time did anything at all to move closer to stopping Team Evil until Roy was back, at which point they immediately started trying to stop Team Evil once again.

Correct. But they were divided into three groups, unable to contact each other and had other immediate concerns. Declaring that they did nothing is patently false.

Ionathus

2021-09-08, 01:57 PM

Ran an underground resistance movement; preserved the life of an important leader and ally; killed an ancient dragon; all but overthrew a thieves guild; resurrected their missing member...

Yes, I agree. They did bog all over that period. It's a good thing someone else was able to resurrect Roy, or they would never amount to anything again.

So in order, that's:

treading water
treading water (literally, because they were at sea, har har)
surviving a revenge plot (with a temp solution that cost V their family)
actually dealing with a personal nemesis (until 2 books later)
getting back to their original status (minus 1 level on their leader)

I don't count "defending Hinjo" or "rescuing random innocents" as terribly noteworthy accomplishments for adventurers of their level. They exercised little to no agency throughout most of that time: both the Azure City duo and the Azure Fleet trio acknowledge that they're all just pretty much twiddling their thumbs waiting, and doing mild heroics to keep busy.

Elan and Durkon did practically nothing, Haley and Belkar saved some scattered Azurites and weakened the Thieves' Guild, and V did far more harm than good. Their ill-advised deal with the IFCC (and their personal demons) killed the entire Draketooth clan and uncountable innocents, and gave the IFCC a limited ability to hamper the Order going forward. Roy's absence on the team and the destruction of Girard's gate are directly linked as a result.

So, yeah, I'd argue that Roy's absence after the Battle of Azure City wasn't just a DELAY on the quest to save the world: it was in fact a net LOSS for the quest.

Mike Havran

2021-09-08, 02:11 PM

Huh. I would argue that Roy is overpowered now. He tanks hits until the cows come home (unless it is double dose of sleep poison that makes Lien go down instantly), he instakills high level vampire cleric Sandstone, he can even heal himself. And let us not forget hat he is basically the only hero whose plans advance the main plot. He is not useless, he is overused.

... V did far more harm than good. Their ill-advised deal with the IFCC (and their personal demons) killed the entire Draketooth clan and uncountable innocents, and gave the IFCC a limited ability to hamper the Order going forward. Roy's absence on the team and the destruction of Girard's gate are directly linked as a result. Let us not forget that the Big Bad only resumed his Evil plan because V had pissed him off.

Manga Shoggoth

2021-09-08, 02:30 PM

So, yeah, I'd argue that Roy's absence after the Battle of Azure City wasn't just a DELAY on the quest to save the world: it was in fact a net LOSS for the quest.

And this is the bit you are missing. They didn't "do nothing". Saying that is hugely dismissive of an entire book's worth of story. They "did nothing quest related". The story isn't just about the quest.

Of course they should immediately abandon the Azurites (their strongest allies) the first chance they get and meet up at... Oh wait. They don't know where each other are, the only one of their group who has the overall picture is dead and can't tell them...

It's not like they weren't trying to get back together - V was driving themselves insane in their attempts to contact Haley (with the results that you rightly cite), and Haley had no way of contacting them in reverse, so her best option was probably to stay where she was and do what good she could there. Likewise Durkon, if Sending wasn't working.

Let us not forget that the Big Bad only resumed his Evil plan because V had pissed him off.

Oh, the plan would have been resumed eventually. Readcloak was just trying to buy some time to get Gobbotopia established. V just accelerated the process a little.

Mike Havran

2021-09-08, 03:46 PM

Oh, the plan would have been resumed eventually. Readcloak was just trying to buy some time to get Gobbotopia established. V just accelerated the process a little. Eventually is quite a long time. Redcloak stalled Xykon for better part of the year without problem. At that point, they were unaware that somebody is working against them and neither had to worry about getting too old or anything.

Jason

2021-09-08, 03:47 PM

Judging just from this battle you could say Durkon is useless, since he failed to get Roy back on his feet and got stoned again, or that V is useless since the prismatic spray doesn't seem to have done anything to Sunny.

Wizard_Lizard

2021-09-08, 03:50 PM

I think he and Bloodfeast will probably wind up going toe-to-toe against Oona. He can't do much against Xykon, and Redcloak would probably be able to disable him easily (although a Mind Blank spell on him seems like it would go a long way), but he and his allosaurus should be capable of doing significant damage against a bugbear Beast Master. In a game I doubt he'd be favored, but the narrative has some flexibility when it comes to the Belkster.

Honestly Belkar against the Bugbears (In addition to sounding like an epic band name), would complete the trifecta of him killing a bunch of goblins andthen hobgoblins later.

Precure

2021-09-08, 04:00 PM

Mike Havran

2021-09-08, 04:33 PM

Actually, Redcloak was only stalling Xykon until Gobbotopia is stabilized, and by the time they found the phylactery Redcloak was already done that before that and he even knew the resistance's secret HQ already. So, V's intervention actually stalled them more.I have no idea on what do you base assumpions that:
1. Redcloak knew about Resistance base before V attacked (worrying about Resistance was assignment of Tsukiko, after all).
2. Redcloak considers Goobotopia to be stable (much less that he considered it to be stable before they lost phylactery and before Cliffport recognized their state)

Because to me, Redcloak acted quiantly until Xykon got mad and forced him to both find the phlylactery, eliminate the risk that Resistance finds it before him, and hastily prepare the state for his immediate departure. If it were not for V, Reddie would be quite comfortable with strengtening the state even further (for example, building a self-sufficient economy).

Ionathus

2021-09-08, 04:36 PM

And this is the bit you are missing. They didn't "do nothing". Saying that is hugely dismissive of an entire book's worth of story. They "did nothing quest related". The story isn't just about the quest.

Of course they should immediately abandon the Azurites (their strongest allies) the first chance they get and meet up at... Oh wait. They don't know where each other are, the only one of their group who has the overall picture is dead and can't tell them...

It's not like they weren't trying to get back together - V was driving themselves insane in their attempts to contact Haley (with the results that you rightly cite), and Haley had no way of contacting them in reverse, so her best option was probably to stay where she was and do what good she could there. Likewise Durkon, if Sending wasn't working.

My dude, I am not attacking DStP or its characters here. I enjoyed the hell out of that book. I understand why the characters did the things they did -- all of them, truly. Those decisions made for some very enjoyable, character-driven stories, and the people whose lives they saved are certainly in a better place because of it.

But we ain't talking about whether or not the Order was a group of bad people. We're talking about whether the Order was stagnant (or even counterproductive) while its leader was out of commission. And that is absolutely 100% the case, even if some of them were making ineffective attempts to reunite. That's not a dig at them, it's just a fact. All the rescued Azurites in the world aren't going to matter if the planet goes kablooey next Tuesday because the Order didn't get its act together on the Gates. And Roy was the only one who could help them progress on that topic.

Oh, the plan would have been resumed eventually. Readcloak was just trying to buy some time to get Gobbotopia established. V just accelerated the process a little.

I'm slightly unclear about the timetable, but hasn't it only been two or three weeks since Roy was resurrected? If Redcloak had already been playing Civic Leader for 6 months at that point, it's entirely believable he could have kept doing so for another one or two. If Redcloak had delayed for just one more month, the Order would've beat them to Kraagor's Gate (though who knows if it would've changed anything). The timeline we're talking about is pretty condensed in these last 3 books.

RatElemental

2021-09-08, 07:28 PM

Roy never was a good fighter, he wasn't any good at fights. Hell, he was even bullied in Fighter College and didn't fight back. His main strength is his brain capabilities and he won most of his fights thanks to that. That's one of few things Eugene was right about: Roy would fare better as a magic user.

Roy'd make a good factotum. +Int mod to attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, AC and strength skill checks (on top of usual bonuses). Hell, he could dip the class for 1-3 levels for those at no cost to BAB or hitpoints, he'd just lose a bonus feat or two. Would also make for a good Warblade I imagine.

Liquor Box

2021-09-08, 08:01 PM

(I'm more worried about Belkar, personally. He's a melee powerhouse and he can basically just steamroll ludicrous amounts of opponents without breaking a sweat, but boss fights are not his forte (he doesn't tend to fare well against major named antagonists, the only two exceptions I can think of right now are his defeating Miko in WaXP and his effortlessly handling both Bozzok and Crystal, and then wiping the floor with the latter in DStP), and this book promises to be heavy on boss fights while I can't quite see where an army of mooks he could plow through could appear 'round the pole.)

Belkar does ok. As you say, he got the better of Miko (who had previously defeated the whole party, so no mean feat), and dominated Bozzok and Crystal. Beyond that, he has defeated several of his Linear Guild opposites (yukyuk, etc), he soloed Goliath the vampire giant, he (through his dinosaur animal companion) played a significant role in the fight against Tarquin's party.

He's lost a few too - most notably against Roy and against Malack, but I think he does ok against named characters even if they're not his forte.

His combat effectiveness depends on whether the scenario allows him to break out the dinosaur animal companion, but even without him he holds his own. I rate him as more of a factor in most combats than Hayley or Elan.

Mechalich

2021-09-09, 01:00 AM

RMS Oceanic

2021-09-09, 03:28 AM

Roy'd make a good factotum. +Int mod to attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, AC and strength skill checks (on top of usual bonuses). Hell, he could dip the class for 1-3 levels for those at no cost to BAB or hitpoints, he'd just lose a bonus feat or two. Would also make for a good Warblade I imagine.

I always had headcanon that in the timeline where Eric grew up and became a bard, Roy would have been a Duskblade.

Peelee

2021-09-09, 07:24 AM

It's worth noting that Roy is.... the lowest optimized character in the party (he has freaking cross-class Knowledge skill ranks)

Is a couple of points in a cross class skill really an indicator here?would his copious feats that all flow towards his modus operandi really be invalidated because he invested some skill points in Knowledge?

Vinyadan

2021-09-09, 09:34 AM

Roy'd make a good factotum. +Int mod to attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, AC and strength skill checks (on top of usual bonuses). Hell, he could dip the class for 1-3 levels for those at no cost to BAB or hitpoints, he'd just lose a bonus feat or two. Would also make for a good Warblade I imagine.

Did Rich design the factotum class? It's in Dungeonscape, and he's one of the authors.

Precure

2021-09-09, 09:35 AM

I have no idea on what do you base assumpions that:
1. Redcloak knew about Resistance base before V attacked (worrying about Resistance was assignment of Tsukiko, after all).
2. Redcloak considers Goobotopia to be stable (much less that he considered it to be stable before they lost phylactery and before Cliffport recognized their state)

No, these two things happened after V's attack and before they found the phylactery. Redcloak was only stalling (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) Xykon "little bit longer" so they can consolidate goblin control ("breaking the resistance") and establish trade relations with mercantile nations ("Gobbotopia's recognition" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html)), both of these aims accomplished by the time the phylactery is found. So, by the time the phylactery is found Redcloak was already ready to leave for the plan.

Squire Doodad

2021-09-09, 10:52 AM

hungrycrow

2021-09-09, 04:17 PM

Is a couple of points in a cross class skill really an indicator here?would his copious feats that all flow towards his modus operandi really be invalidated because he invested some skill points in Knowledge?

I'd actually say Roy is one of the more optimized members of the Order. Not only do all his feats help him with his many strategy of hitting things with a big sword, but his spellsplinter maneuver is a very good counter to their main threat and his new legacy weapon abilities cover some of his weaknesses as a fighter. He's really only beaten out by Durkon and V, who have only had to keep levelling as full casters.

Peelee

2021-09-09, 04:27 PM

I'd actually say Roy is one of the more optimized members of the Order. Not only do all his feats help him with his many strategy of hitting things with a big sword, but his spellsplinter maneuver is a very good counter to their main threat and his new legacy weapon abilities cover some of his weaknesses as a fighter. He's really only beaten out by Durkon and V, who have only had to keep levelling as full casters.
I agree for the same reasons.

Mike Havran

2021-09-09, 05:48 PM

No, these two things happened after V's attack and before they found the phylactery. Redcloak was only stalling (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) Xykon "little bit longer" so they can consolidate goblin control ("breaking the resistance") and establish trade relations with mercantile nations ("Gobbotopia's recognition" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html)), both of these aims accomplished by the time the phylactery is found. So, by the time the phylactery is found Redcloak was already ready to leave for the plan.He "was ready to leave" because he had no other choice, and his sudden efficiency stems from the threat that he would be maimed again (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html) if it took him more than six months to find the phylacery. If V had not attacked (or more precisely, made Xykon mad), who knows how long would it take Xykon to get bored with tormenting O-Chul or Redcloak to establish trade with Cliffport (it is implied their stance was influenced by Elves siding against Gobbotopia (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html)). It could be years for all we know, because neither Xykon nor Redcloak had strong reason to hurry up.

Precure

2021-09-09, 06:19 PM

woweedd

2021-09-09, 09:02 PM

Nah. Roy has been IMMENSLY useful to the party. Saving the rest of the order from execution using nothing but a broken sword and a bag of animals, he orchestrated that whole Linear Guild ambush that is arguably the Order's biggest unqualified success, quite effectively managed to make a plan to get through Tarquin's army sans casualties, and, while he may have failed in the end against the High Priest of Hel, he was effectively fighting alone, against an army of vampires, plus his own mind-controlled party (meaning he has to stick to non-lethal damage for half the fight) and, yet, still managed to get darn close to taking HPOH down. Objectively speaking, Roy probably has the best track record of the entire Order, and, if DSTP is any indication, take him out, you effectively cut out the brain of the entire party. Haley had no idea how to control Belkar, V went nucking futs, Durkon was useless, Elan followed a sidequest into nothingness, ETC.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-09, 09:06 PM

Roy Greenhilt is useless?
Simply wrong (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html)
Without a leader, there is no Order and there is nobody opposing Team Evil.

You aren't even close.
Also, as is so often the case, what Fish said (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25188847&postcount=17). :smallcool:

OracleofWuffing

2021-09-09, 11:55 PM

Star Trek has Worf, a character from a warrior race that is known for its brute strength. So, whenever the script wanted to introduce a powerful threat to the crew? They'd have the threat pick up Worf and toss him across the stage like a ragdoll. Whether that made for a better or worse character over the many times it happened is something still discussed on the internet elsewhere, but the bottom line is that if you want to introduce something as a threat, you have it be a threat. Taking out the guy with probably the best armor and HP is an efficient way of demonstrating that you can take out anyone else if given half the chance. These situations may tell us that a character is weak, but they may also tell us that another character is powerful, neither situation is necessarily wrong. There's a bonus piece of entertainment if it turns into an underdog victory for Roy, too.

Or, maybe someone needs some character development without Roy around.

SlashDash

2021-09-10, 08:07 AM

I noticed that people forgot Roy single handedly took out the bandits in the woods who captured the entire party - while being forced to hold a non magical stick.

This thread is a bit silly. Roy is the leader who holds everyone together, Belkar explained that perfectly well in the pyramid.

As for Roy losing some fights, what did you expect? Him to just waltz in and kill everything on sight?

This is the same as V explaining how they took out Z, not everyone can be optimized against every single situation. Roy and Durkon are the only ones who had a shot against a vampire's gaze. Durkon even tells Mr. Scruffy is there a shot he can ONLY bring Roy, because everyone else would have no chance. Exactly what happened when they faced Durkon later on. While it makes perfect sense that a Dwarven Cleric has high mental resistances, the odds of a fighter doing that shows you that Roy just went a different path to being op.

And him being able to cancel out spellcasters makes him an incredible dangerous fighter.
It's almost like Roy actually maximized his character to be perfectly good against fighting undead spellcasters.

I wonder why is that?

Robots

2021-09-10, 09:09 AM

Just because a character doesn't win all the time doesn't mean they're not an important team asset.

Mike Havran

2021-09-10, 10:40 AM

Redcloak is lying to Xykon. Xykon believes that Redcloak would prefer to be Gobbotopia's leader instead of taking control of the gate for Xykon's sake because he don't know the true nature of the plan. Why would Redcloak want to stay in there for years when the plan, thing he sacrificed everything for, waiting for him? That makes no sense.But that is exactly what he had been doing, right until V and her assault upset the status quo. If Redcloak had been so eager to get to the plan ASAP, he would have left AC to Jirix after a few weeks. He stayed there for months instead and I see no reason why he would not stay for another year or so (Possibly to oversee first one or two harvests?). You seem to argue he was about to come to Xykon and nudge him back on the quest just around that time V attacked. While I do not think it is impossible, I find it highly unlikely.

Hurkyl

2021-09-10, 11:28 AM

Redcloak is lying to Xykon. Xykon believes that Redcloak would prefer to be Gobbotopia's leader instead of taking control of the gate for Xykon's sake because he don't know the true nature of the plan. Why would Redcloak want to stay in there for years when the plan, thing he sacrificed everything for, waiting for him? That makes no sense.
He experienced a genuine crisis of conscience during the assault on Azure City, which I fully believe drove him to feel some imperative to establish the newly created nation before moving on.

And then it becomes a holding pattern: Redcloak working to do what he can before Xykon's patience running out, and Xykon working on preparations and his own amusement while granting Redcloak leave to do his thing.

There will always be more involved in establishing a nation, so the only way it was likely to end is either if Xykon's patience runs out or an outside force knocks them out of their status quo.

brian 333

2021-09-10, 12:03 PM

I thought the fake phylactery was why RC stayed in Gobbotopia, using the securing of the city as cover for what he was really doing.

Xihirli

2021-09-10, 12:11 PM

Hmm. I never considered that. It's true that Redcloak could have switched the phylactery with a fake at any time, and wouldn't have needed to wait for the original to be stolen to make that plan.
However, it's heavily suggested (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) that Redcloak's reason for making the fake was so that he still had access to the phylactery, something he never needed to make sure of before.

:xykon: You didn't think I was going to let YOU keep carrying it, did you?
:redcloak: No. No, I definitely did not.

DLcygnet

2021-09-10, 12:47 PM

...could we see him at least hold his own for a few moments before the old man tosses him in a circle like a rag doll. or let him get a few hits in before the Monk-Paladin fury of slap-smites him around? Or just let him succeed at the fort save against the summoned Nightcrawler?

On top of that, I have come to highly question his leadership talents...

does Roy add value to the Order...?

In general, each book focuses on a different character of the Order and they all get to shine at various points for character development purposes. We'll likely see Belkar on deck more in this book. I suspect the Giant feels he's spent a lot of time on Roy and is pulling his punches to allow others on the team to shine (he notoriously does this to V all the time too). Roy is a fine leader and fighter - don't let him getting nuked by psion, passing out drunk or poisoned in recent strips get you down. Besides, as Elan says, "Effectiveness is no fun AT ALL!" Which is the Giant's way of using his author avatar to remind us that he writes for entertainment, not for optimum combat strategy.

To keep your warm at night, here are a few Fighter love pages:

Off screen (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0855.html) plans (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html) are always more successful (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html)!
Spell splinter & Tanking Tarquin (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html)
Not Durkon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html) at All (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1010.html).
Pow! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1070.html)
Wham! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1075.html)
Best laid plans and... Flamestrike! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html)
Shot Through the Heart (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1126.html)
Flanked and still Fighting (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1128.html)
The Twin Turbos (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1160.html)

Psyren

2021-09-10, 01:09 PM

does Roy add value to the Order,

Yes. Next question.

And boy did you skip a lot of the accomplishments in his resume to try and make your point. For starters, without him the Order would have been stranded in the mountains with no airship/crew when those giants attacked it.

Lexible

2021-09-10, 01:09 PM

Roy:

Captured the Linear Guild wizard

Not to mention he planned the routing of the Linear Guild.

r2d2go

2021-09-10, 04:50 PM

He does do it pretty consistently, though. This is one of the incredibly few, if only, instances where he doesn't. Not being able to do something literally 100% of the time is hardly a failing.

Not that I'm saying that is his sole purpose of course, but he does fulfill that role well in addition to the other rolls he occupies.

A little late to reply but I should say I tend to agree, I just think he's failed to tank more often than that. A tank who simply survives is not a tank, and he fairly often fails to actually protect his backline party members. This might be the only time he failed due to taking excessive damage, rather than not taking enough damage, but both of those are failures to tank.

But I think we both agree that it's a minor downside to only one of his many strengths.

Mr Popo

2021-09-10, 05:20 PM

The tank is useless because he has done a lot of tanking?

Roy has basically been the hero and also mostly effective most of the comic, bar the time he died, and even then, he went on a journey to be more effective.

It is at this point that most of the rest of the order has become as effective as he is, which makes him seem less competent by comparison.

But most of the order got owned this fight. It's not Roy sucking, it's the entire team going up against a tough ambush.

Hurkyl

2021-09-10, 08:16 PM

I think there's literally nothing Roy could have done directly in this ambush unless they're able to ground Serini. And yet Serini still felt it important to spend the entire surprise round taking him out of the fight.

Edit: oh wait, that's not true. It's a bit of a stretch, but Roy's Knowledge (Architecture) might actually be relevant in this very situation, to help identify the nature of how the exit vanished.

ORione

2021-09-10, 09:36 PM

danielxcutter

2021-09-10, 11:58 PM

RatElemental

2021-09-11, 03:51 AM

Edit: oh wait, that's not true. It's a bit of a stretch, but Roy's Knowledge (Architecture) might actually be relevant in this very situation, to help identify the nature of how the exit vanished.

Roy is easily strong enough with his magic items to just be able to smash through that stone wall, and pretty good odds of being able to do so without them. No need to figure out what happened to the door when you can just make one.

Liquor Box

2021-09-11, 05:40 AM

Roy is easily strong enough with his magic items to just be able to smash through that stone wall, and pretty good odds of being able to do so without them. No need to figure out what happened to the door when you can just make one.

A mimic is str 19, so Roy would be able to force it out of the way. That might be the reason why Serini went after him first, to stop him forcing the door back open. I doubt anyone else in the Order is that strong. How does it work if a couple of the stronger members combine their strength?

a_flemish_guy

2021-09-11, 06:26 PM

in the first fight against miko she solo-ed the entire order without durkon

in the second fight roy smacked her down on his own without trouble because he had an actual weapon this time

brian 333

2021-09-11, 06:40 PM

Doctor West

2021-09-11, 07:03 PM

I apologize if someone said this already, but in the case of this specific fight I don't think it's fair to fault Roy for failing his fort save against a poison that also took down O-CHUL recently. :smalleek:
And as for the idea that 'not being able to tank consistently makes you a bad tank', anybody who has actually played the game instead of spending all their time theory crafting and nitpicking RAW can tell you that no saving throw is a guarantee.

brian 333

2021-09-11, 11:29 PM

... anybody who has actually played the game instead of spending all their time theory crafting and nitpicking RAW can tell you that no saving throw is a guarantee.

Boy, howdy. Some game nights you can't get a die to roll in your favor, and others a player rolls 3 nat 20s in a row on the night an expanded critical hit system is being introduced.

Then there was the night everyone failed to save, including the boss enemy who cast the spell, and it came down to which characters had more than 10d8 hp remaining. (My poor, poor wizard.)

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-12, 10:28 AM

I apologize if someone said this already, but in the case of this specific fight I don't think it's fair to fault Roy for failing his fort save against a poison that also took down O-CHUL recently. :smalleek: Fair point.

And as for the idea that 'not being able to tank consistently makes you a bad tank', anybody who has actually played the game instead of spending all their time theory crafting and nitpicking RAW can tell you that no saving throw is a guarantee. Having watched our warlock get feebleminded last night (even with some plusses to his saves) underscores that point for me.

Yirggzmb

2021-09-12, 10:14 PM

I do think that the current fight is… well, I’m fine with the general premise of “Team Serini is incredibly dangerous”, but I’d say the Order is being incapacitated a bit too much before turning it around for me to entirely like it - it feels like the competence they’ve gained in the last book or two has been reset. They did okay in BRItF and really well in UD - and the final fight in BRItF was mostly the team trying to run away while the Dining Room fight would have been a complete loss if not for Belkar and Durkon breaking through at just the right moments.

That being said, “Roy is useless” is entirely false; arguably he’s being useless now because he’d break Rich’s plans over his knee. It’s why the casters get screwed over so often.

The easiest analogy I can think of for how I see it is how it tends to work in video games. You go through the level, getting more skilled and/or more strength to your character. Then you fight the level boss, and it's tough, but you pull out all the things you've learned over the last level and win. Then you move onto the next level and things have amped up again - you have to keep getting better.

In this case, we're in the final "level" (book) and the final boss is Xykon who's crazy dangerous. That puts Serini in the role of a "wake up!" mid boss, who reminds you that things are not just playing around anymore - things are going to be harder than you could expect, so get serious.

Obviously this is a story, not a game. But games and long running stories both often have a similar "get better, solve the current problem, and oh no the new problem is strong enough to challenge you again" flow to them. So to my eye, it's not that the Order is being reset. Just that they are currently more outclassed than they have been in a while.

Ymmv of course.

elros

2021-09-13, 07:18 AM

It's worth noting that Roy is both the lowest level character in the party (due both to dying and also to being dead while other party members continued to gain XP), the lowest tier character in the party (Belkar's Ranger/Barbardian combo narrowly edges straight fighter), and the lowest optimized character in the party (he has freaking cross-class Knowledge skill ranks). It's hardly surprising that he has some significant efficacy issues even in the rather loosely adapted version of 3.5 D&D OOTS is dealing with.

This is, at least partly, the joke. The charismatic and noble warrior leader who is also shrewd and plans effectively for his team is a classic fantasy archetype played by many a fantasy protagonist (including in D&D, Tanis Half-Elven famously saved the world leading a party of misfits as a fighter), but 3.5 D&D made such a character into a terrible pile of garbage because in order to the fighter to remain relevant at the one thing they are good at, combat, they have to relentlessly pour essentially every class resource they possess into that space.

Now, as the story has progressed and grown more serious and it actually requires the characters to succeed or the world is doomed, Roy's extremely terrible build has become a genuinely liability to the story. This is hardly unique, V's rather dubious set of prohibited schools and spell selection massively hampers their overall power, and Elan's miserable Int and Wis continually constrain his ability to properly utilize his bard chassis (and the weird custom PrC he's using apparently makes him significantly weaker by cutting off his spellcasting progression since if he were a straight bard he'd have 5th level spells by now). However, even a massively unoptimized wizard is still very powerful and the comic has spent essentially it's entire runtime teaching the audience to expect nothing of Elan, so the issue really does hit Roy the hardest.
I disagree that Roy has a terrible build. From the Class Geekery Thread:

Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good, Human male Fighter 14+ (forum).
Str 29 (same as a frost giant).
Dex 13+ (required for Improved Grapple).
Con 12+ (151+ hit points).
Int 14-17 (very good, less than Vaarsuvius, forum).
Wis 14+ (very good, forum).
Cha 12+ (decent, forum; less than Elan).
Age: 29.
Feats: Cleave (prerequisite for Great Cleave), Combat Expertise (prerequisite for Improved Disarm), Great Cleave, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Least Legacy, Lesser Legacy, Power Attack (prerequisite for Cleave), Run, Spellsplinter Maneuver, Weapon Focus (prerequisite for Weapon Specialization), Weapon Specialization: greatsword.
Skills: Bluff 0, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering 2+, Knowledge: Geography, Knowledge: Planes, Listen low, Profession: Baseball Player (BRITF), Profession: Goatherd, Ride 1, Sense Motive 0 (OOPC), Spellcraft, Spot low.
Items: Magical heavy armor, Bag of Tricks, club, newspaper, heirloom +5 Starmetal Greatsword of Legacy, formal suit, shillelagh oil, potion of delay poison, Ring of Protection (WXP), Manual of Gainful Exercise (SSDT), non-magical boots, bedroll, list of Xykon's spells, feats and magic items, Belt of Giant Strength, book, sextant, runestone, Wrecan's book, scarf, potions of Cure Serious, Remove Paralysis, Magical Vestment.

How is that a terrible build for a fighter?
As for the other characters in OOTS, most of them suffer from their dump stats (Elan's intelligence, Belkar's Wisdom & Intelligence, V's charisma, Durkon's charisma), which they don't have much control over. Other characters have worse builds: V specialized in a weak school (evocation) and banned the best two (conjuring and transmutation), Durkon suffers from never preparing the right spells, and Belkar cannot cast spells at all.
I agree Roy has a lower level and lower tier class, but he also has one of the most powerful weapons in the OOTS universe. From what we have seen, his sword is +5 to hit & damage, does extra damage against undead, returning, and several times a day heals to full hit points and acts as a haste spell. If Roy had his sword against Tarquin, he might defeat him one-on-one.

Schroeswald

2021-09-13, 09:04 AM

[snipping all but this because I agree mostly] V specialized in a weak school (evocation) and banned the best two (conjuring and transmutation)

V didnt ban transmutation they banned necromancy, their specialization and banning still has seriously hamstrung them but they aren’t that bad.

Metastachydium

2021-09-13, 09:29 AM

From what we have seen, his sword is +5 to hit & damage, does extra damage against undead, returning, and several times a day heals to full hit points and acts as a haste spell. If Roy had his sword against Tarquin, he might defeat him one-on-one.

(I agree with everything else you said, but
1. I'm not sure the sword gives him Haste (why do you say that it does?); and
2. Tarquin has (had?) +5 weapons of his own, as well as a magic item that lets him heal for quite an amount of hit points mid-combat. He probably has a few levels on Roy, a better chassis (I mean, pretty much everyone agrees that he's almost certainly an initiator) and a ton of very useful magic items (guy's crazy-prepared and filthy rich!). I wouldn't bet on Roy.)

DLcygnet

2021-09-14, 02:04 PM

I'd say that Elan is the least combat effective of the Order, probably followed by Hayley

Lol Wait (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html) Wut (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html)? She's probably the most combat effective since she has the most uptime (not getting dead, poisoned, thrown off a cliff, or captured by Fiends); which results in more experience and thus is tied for highest level (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623429-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XVIII-Everyone-s-an-Expert) in the order (along with V). The whole point of this current comic sequence is to re-highlight she doesn't need a bow to be dangerous.

Metastachydium

2021-09-14, 02:33 PM

Lol Wait (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html) Wut (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html)?

To be fair, absolutely slaughtering huge amounts of (relatively) weaker opponents is really (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) Belkar's (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) department (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html). Where Haley actually shines is
1. defense; she is so hard to hit it's not even funny (if you want to hit her; otherwise it's funny enough); and
2. thinking outside the box (v. e.g. your own example from the latest strip).
(It's also worth mentioning that she's the only one who consistently managed to inconvenience Tarquin.)

As for who's the second least efficient in combat, I'd say the one (mind you, a fair bit) above Elan would be Durkon, in no small part as a result of his preferring to play support (although it also bears nothing that the three martials are better with weapons and V has superior offensive capabilities with spells, so he's pretty much destined to stay far from the top).

TRH

2021-09-14, 03:21 PM

in the first fight against miko she solo-ed the entire order without durkon

in the second fight roy smacked her down on his own without trouble because he had an actual weapon this time

After having stood by and did nothing while she executed his well-connected patron. Honestly, that was probably Roy's most indefensible blunder in the entire story. It's not like he was distracted or busy, he simply froze.

Manga Shoggoth

2021-09-14, 04:25 PM

After having stood by and did nothing while she executed his well-connected patron. Honestly, that was probably Roy's most indefensible blunder in the entire story. It's not like he was distracted or busy, he simply froze.

Really (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html)?

That's not a blunder, nor is it even remotely indefensible. He was caught off-guard because a paladin suddenly murdered her leige in cold blood. You know, something you wouldn't expect a paladin to do - and even at her worst, Roy acknowledged that Miko was a paladin. Even Hinjo was caught flat-footed, and he was already worried about how Miko was starting to act.

TRH

2021-09-14, 05:17 PM

Really (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html)?

That's not a blunder, nor is it even remotely indefensible. He was caught off-guard because a paladin suddenly murdered her leige in cold blood. You know, something you wouldn't expect a paladin to do - and even at her worst, Roy acknowledged that Miko was a paladin. Even Hinjo was caught flat-footed, and he was already worried about how Miko was starting to act.

Yes. She drew her sword on him, declared him guilty of treason, which Roy well understood by this point equalled a summary execution when Miko is doing the sentencing, and swung. By the time she was finished, he was just starting to draw his weapon but had not moved from where he was standing. He froze. So did Hinjo, yes, but that's hardly an excuse. They both failed.

dmc91356

2021-09-14, 05:19 PM

In the words of Thor,

Wow. That is . . . the single least charitable way to describe it.

:smallcool:

TRH

2021-09-14, 05:21 PM

In the words of Thor,

Wow. That is . . . the single least charitable way to describe it.

:smallcool:

That's not the same as being wrong. And this is relative anyways. What other errors has he made that had even less of a defense that even fall in the same ballpark in terms of their consequences? Possibly jumping onto Xykon's dragon, but nobody had told him there was another plan to stop the lich.

Ionathus

2021-09-14, 05:50 PM

Yes. She drew her sword on him, declared him guilty of treason, which Roy well understood by this point equalled a summary execution when Miko is doing the sentencing, and swung. By the time she was finished, he was just starting to draw his weapon but had not moved from where he was standing. He froze. So did Hinjo, yes, but that's hardly an excuse. They both failed.

...and the fact that neither Hinjo nor Roy spent even a second chastising themselves for not stopping her (and BELKAR, of all people, didn't rub it in their faces) should probably tell you that it happened too quickly for them to react.

Your temporal, blow-by-blow analysis does not make any sense for a comic strip, especially one based on D&D. Time is subjective in both of those genres: quite simply, it's not as cut and dry as "Roy saw her walking up the stairs, shouting angrily, so he objectively had X amount of time to take an action that could've stopped her." You have no reliable metric for these judgments, because time is fluid from one strip to the next. You are straight up making assumptions.

Why is it so hard to accept the comic book narrative idea that Roy (as well as Hinjo!) was completely caught off guard by Miko's sudden attack? Or the D&D narrative idea that she rolled higher initiative than them both?

TRH

2021-09-14, 05:56 PM

...and the fact that neither Hinjo nor Roy spent even a second chastising themselves for not stopping her (and BELKAR, of all people, didn't rub it in their faces) should probably tell you that it happened too quickly for them to react.

Your temporal, blow-by-blow analysis does not make any sense for a comic strip, especially one based on D&D. Time is subjective in both of those genres: quite simply, it's not as cut and dry as "Roy saw her walking up the stairs, shouting angrily, so he objectively had X amount of time to take an action that could've stopped her." You have no reliable metric for these judgments, because time is fluid from one strip to the next. You are straight up making assumptions.

Why is it so hard to accept the comic book narrative idea that Roy (as well as Hinjo!) was completely caught off guard by Miko's sudden attack? Or the D&D narrative idea that she rolled higher initiative than them both?

Because it wasn't really that sudden. Her intentions were telegraphed by a not brief argument between her and Hinjo where she specifically rejected the idea of taking it to trial. And then she strode up to the throne and threw Shinjo into his seat. Where else was she going with that? Again, espeically given he knew her character by this point.

Empiar93

2021-09-14, 06:18 PM

Because it wasn't really that sudden. Her intentions were telegraphed by a not brief argument between her and Hinjo where she specifically rejected the idea of taking it to trial. And then she strode up to the throne and threw Shinjo into his seat. Where else was she going with that? Again, espeically given he knew her character by this point.

They were still attempting to de-escalate the situation, especially Hinjo. But on top of that do you trust Azure City’s legal process to find Roy innocent, had he swung before Miko openly declared her intent to slay Shojo? Yes I’m making an assumption here, but Roy also told Belkar that they were to remain uninvolved, up until Shojo’s death. But even then Shinjo tells Roy to back down and STILL attempts to do things the peaceful way, until Miko refuses and he attempts to handle things himself.

By the time she announced her sentence her blade was out. By D&D rules (which were followed slightly more rigorously at this point) they couldn’t have done anything. In a society so uptight and honor-bound, proactive action is to your detriment - why do you think Roy and the party are here in the first place?

TRH

2021-09-14, 06:23 PM

They were still attempting to de-escalate the situation, especially Hinjo. But on top of that do you trust Azure City’s legal process to find Roy innocent, had he swung before Miko openly declared her intent to slay Shojo? Yes I’m making an assumption here, but Roy also told Belkar that they were to remain uninvolved, up until Shojo’s death. But even then Shinjo tells Roy to back down and STILL attempts to do things the peaceful way, until Miko refuses and he attempts to handle things himself.

By the time she announced her sentence her blade was out. By D&D rules (which were followed slightly more rigorously at this point) they couldn’t have done anything. In a society so uptight and honor-bound, proactive action is to your detriment - why do you think Roy and the party are here in the first place?

She wouldn't have stopped trying to swing just because Roy was moving to stop her, so the courts would probably understand in the end. And I feel at some point between her saying that the courts cannot be trusted and her sentence, it should have clicked for him that Miko has two models for approaching criminals: arrest or execution, which means that ruling out one leaves you with the other. Hinjo I can believe was holding out hope she would back down, but Roy was much more cynical about her and rightly so.

Seward

2021-09-14, 06:44 PM

I think there's literally nothing Roy could have done directly in this ambush unless they're able to ground Serini.

Every time magic came back, Sunni would be eating a thrown sword.

Beholders are dangerous but their hitpoints aren't that high for their DC.

Seward

2021-09-14, 06:48 PM

anybody who has actually played the game instead of spending all their time theory crafting and nitpicking RAW can tell you that no saving throw is a guarantee.

Indeed, once you can afford to spend the cash, a lot of adventurers who don't even have sword proficiency pick up a sword of luck, just for the 1/day reroll on a saving through.

Reroll items and feats etc are gold at mid-high levels.

Hurkyl

2021-09-14, 06:53 PM

Because it wasn't really that sudden. Her intentions were telegraphed by a not brief argument between her and Hinjo where she specifically rejected the idea of taking it to trial. And then she strode up to the throne and threw Shinjo into his seat. Where else was she going with that? Again, espeically given he knew her character by this point.
A paladin who went out of her way to ensure a group of trolls prepared and ready for a fight despite fully intending to slaughter them? Who spent a long time refusing to act on her clear belief Belkar was evil until she could confirm it supernaturally, despite her apparent desire to do so? Who buckled under the weight of a very thin argument that she was responsible for providing them luxury accommodations as she hauled them back to Azure City?

I'm not sure how in character it sounds for someone like that not only to denounce the Law in its entirety but furthermore to substitute her own authority instead for immediate and final action. Maybe it sounds more plausible if the only parts of her character you remember are things like her anger at the various ways the order denied her, but *shrug*.

It's clear she thinks him guilty of treason and it's very... tropey... to continue to an on-the-spot execution. But outside of the tropes, it's not clear she's going to discard the process for dealing with treason until the dialog she makes when starting the surprise round.

TRH

2021-09-14, 06:59 PM

A paladin who went out of her way to ensure a group of trolls prepared and ready for a fight despite fully intending to slaughter them? Who spent a long time refusing to act on her clear belief Belkar was evil until she could confirm it supernaturally? Who buckled under the weight of a very thin argument that she was responsible for providing them luxury accommodations as she hauled them back to Azure City?

I'm not sure how in character it sounds for someone like that not only to denounce the Law in its entirety but furthermore to substitute her own authority instead for immediate and final action. Maybe it sounds more plausible if the only parts of her character you remember are things like her anger at the various ways the order denied her, but *shrug*.

It's clear she thinks him guilty of treason and it's very... tropey... to continue to an on-the-spot execution. But outside of the tropes, it's not clear she's going to discard the process for dealing with treason until the dialog she makes when starting the surprise round.

She still slaughtered the ogres (not trolls) in the end. As for the rest, I don't know how it's supposed to be some insane or unintuitive leap of logic to conclude that the angry and volatile paladin who is, in fact, denouncing the law in its entirety and substituting her own judgment might not be all talk. I understand her character wasn't a static one over the course of the comic, but I don't think she ever said she was going to do something and failed to do so without having been convinced otherwise and admitting as much. And in this case she refused to be convinced otherwise. But apparently I'm the unreasonable one for expecting Roy to take the paladin at her word.

brian 333

2021-09-14, 07:36 PM

She still slaughtered the ogres (not trolls) in the end. As for the rest, I don't know how it's supposed to be some insane or unintuitive leap of logic to conclude that the angry and volatile paladin who is, in fact, denouncing the law in its entirety and substituting her own judgment might not be all talk. I understand her character wasn't a static one over the course of the comic, but I don't think she ever said she was going to do something and failed to do so without having been convinced otherwise and admitting as much. And in this case she refused to be convinced otherwise. But apparently I'm the unreasonable one for expecting Roy to take the paladin at her word.

At any point before Roy acted, Hinjo would have been required to act in opposition to him. It was not until Miko actually commited a crime that Roy was free to act.

Hinjo was similarly unable to break the law, and opted to use his best skill, Diplomacy, to achieve his goals.

Lawful characters often are forced to make decisions that are less tactically sound because what they want to do is unlawful.

Which was the test Miko failed. So, wow! I just realized that if Hinjo would have taken out Miko, he would be a fallen paladin, Miko would have still been there to destroy the sapphire, and...

Yeah. Worse result than now.

TRH

2021-09-14, 07:40 PM

At any point before Roy acted, Hinjo would have been required to act in opposition to him. It was not until Miko actually commited a crime that Roy was free to act.

Hinjo was similarly unable to break the law, and opted to use his best skill, Diplomacy, to achieve his goals.

Lawful characters often are forced to make decisions that are less tactically sound because what they want to do is unlawful.

Which was the test Miko failed. So, wow! I just realized that if Hinjo would have taken out Miko, he would be a fallen paladin, Miko would have still been there to destroy the sapphire, and...

Yeah. Worse result than now.

I really don't think paladins fall that easily. It was my understanding in 3.5 that paladins can perform the occasional chaotic action if they've got a good reason and don't make enough of a habit of it as to lose their lawful alignment. As opposed to immediate falling for performing a single evil action.

As for Roy's part, he wouldn't necessarily have to charge and full attack Miko immediately, but interposing himself between her and the defenseless old man in the room wouldn't have increased anyone's chances of dying there. And no, before you say it, it would not have increased Shojo's odds of dying either, since those were already at 100% if nobody stopped Miko.

brian 333

2021-09-14, 10:36 PM

Hindsight is wonderful. But even after GoT was a thing, I never imagined a paladin would kill her leige. It seems so obvious now what Roy should have done, but he wasn't as surprised as I was.

hamishspence

2021-09-14, 11:14 PM

At any point before Roy acted, Hinjo would have been required to act in opposition to him. It was not until Miko actually commited a crime that Roy was free to act.

Acting to stop a "murder attempt in progress" is reasonable behaviour, even legal, generally speaking. It fulfils the "self defence or defence of others" criteria for justified violence.

Still, it's true that you need a degree of readiness - a readied action would function in that respect, since they go off before the action that triggers them does. However, Roy isn't exactly in a position to kill Miko in one hit, which would have been needed for her attack action to not strike home. That, or bull-rushing her out of range of Shojo.

Considering Roy's position during the attack, it makes sense that he doesn't really have the opportunity, or sufficient notification, to ready an action in time, anyway.

Peelee

2021-09-14, 11:18 PM

hamishspence

2021-09-14, 11:21 PM

If we're going by D&D rules, I would call Miko's action the surprise round which spurred everyone to make their initiative rolls. Roy could not have acted during that round.

If we're going by what would reasonably have happened without regard to D&D rules, I would call Miko's action surprising as all get-out since nobody could have reasonably expected she would go from 0-100 that fast and just straight up jump to murder. Roy could not have acted fast enough.

Either way, not really a problem as I see it.

Yup.

On the tabletop, it would need to be a conversation lasting several rounds, with Roy's player saying "I ready an action to bull-rush the paladin away if they try to attack" at the right point, for Roy's player to be able to "interrupt the attack" so they don't get a surprise round in the first place.

In this case, it's not really negligence, to fail to ready an action in in a timely manner.

After having stood by and did nothing while she executed his well-connected patron. Honestly, that was probably Roy's most indefensible blunder in the entire story. It's not like he was distracted or busy, he simply froze.

That's not a blunder, nor is it even remotely indefensible. He was caught off-guard because a paladin suddenly murdered her leige in cold blood. You know, something you wouldn't expect a paladin to do - and even at her worst, Roy acknowledged that Miko was a paladin. Even Hinjo was caught flat-footed, and he was already worried about how Miko was starting to act.

Eugene accuses Roy of "standing their and twiddling his thumbs" - but IMO that's just another part of establishing Eugene's unfairness.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html

Ionathus

2021-09-14, 11:59 PM

Because it wasn't really that sudden. Her intentions were telegraphed by a not brief argument between her and Hinjo where she specifically rejected the idea of taking it to trial. And then she strode up to the throne and threw Shinjo into his seat. Where else was she going with that? Again, espeically given he knew her character by this point.

And I'm saying everything she does could easily be part of a single turn. Talking is a free action for antagonists, too.

Armchair quarterback the movements all you like: I still think you're reading too much into it. The scene is dedicated to showing Miko's fall. Of course she gets more talking time and a bit of cinematic leeway with the panels & movement rules. But taking the spotlight she was given and reframing it to portray Roy as incompetent or ignorant is absolutely your own interpretation.

Especially because, as I mentioned before, nobody says anything about it afterwards, and Roy has one of his best fights in the series on the following page where he shines dramatically.

WindStruck

2021-09-15, 01:10 AM

So Roy isn't immune to a poison that knocked out O-Chul, and he doesn't have an insane uncanny dodge like Haley...

If Roy wasn't knocked out for this fight, I am pretty sure he would be throwing his sword and skewering a beholder several times.

Liquor Box

2021-09-15, 07:20 AM

Lol Wait (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html) Wut (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html)? She's probably the most combat effective since she has the most uptime (not getting dead, poisoned, thrown off a cliff, or captured by Fiends); which results in more experience and thus is tied for highest level (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623429-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XVIII-Everyone-s-an-Expert) in the order (along with V). The whole point of this current comic sequence is to re-highlight she doesn't need a bow to be dangerous.

Yeah, that's my impression. I don't think she has played a crucial role in any important combats (except potentially this one) and all the others have been crucial in several. Has she had any one on one duels against significant opponents? She has been ineffective in several combats (egbeaten by the sorcerer bandit, dominated in the theives guild). Her strength isn't combat, it more about sneaking and trickery.

Who in the Order, other than Elan, do you think is less combat effective than Hayley?

ebarde

2021-09-15, 07:58 AM

Probably Belkar? A lot of his combat showings are just clearing up mooks

hungrycrow

2021-09-15, 09:55 AM

We see how Belkar and Haley match up against Crystal and Bozzok: Haley loses while Belkar manages to stall until Bozzok leaves.

Another thing to mention is that we're sort of talking about their builds, but their stats can always be outweighed by good tactics.

Schroeswald

2021-09-15, 10:38 AM

Yeah, that's my impression. I don't think she has played a crucial role in any important combats (except potentially this one) and all the others have been crucial in several. Has she had any one on one duels against significant opponents? She has been ineffective in several combats (egbeaten by the sorcerer bandit, dominated in the theives guild). Her strength isn't combat, it more about sneaking and trickery.

Who in the Order, other than Elan, do you think is less combat effective than Hayley?

Haley hasn’t turned the tide of all that many crucial combats but she fought constantly during the Azure City siege and did very well, her attack was the last one against Tarquin and the one that defeated him. She won the combat encounter against Crystal, yea she won that through trickery and charisma but she defeated a significant opponent basically on her own. She was crucial to the ambush of the linear guild and has defeated Sabine several times, her skill set is incredibly useful both in and out of combat.

Ionathus

2021-09-15, 10:52 AM

Haley hasn’t turned the tide of all that many crucial combats but she fought constantly during the Azure City siege and did very well, her attack was the last one against Tarquin and the one that defeated him. She won the combat encounter against Crystal, yea she won that through trickery and charisma but she defeated a significant opponent basically on her own. She was crucial to the ambush of the linear guild and has defeated Sabine several times, her skill set is incredibly useful both in and out of combat.

Haley also got the scene at Azure City where she figured out the shell game. That contribution to the team's tactics is mentioned specifically in the book commentary as a signifier of "Haley's back, look at how her cleverness helps the team now she has her voice again."

elros

2021-09-15, 07:48 PM

Since Haley regained her voice (and hooked up with Elan), she has actually been pretty effective as a rogue. She has made a number of good role plays with her bluffs, understanding of how others bluff, etc. As a combatant, she is a ranged damage dealer and flanker, and does as well in that role.
In many ways, she has made the furthest progress as a character, with honorable mention to Belkar.

Liquor Box

2021-09-16, 04:43 AM

Probably Belkar? A lot of his combat showings are just clearing up mooks

Yeah, but he has a lot of combats against significant opponents as well. The obvious one, as pointed out by HungryCrow, was the fight where he dominated the thieves' guild because Hayley had been getting well beaten by the same opponents. Others include beating one of the fake Xykons, several victories against Yukyuk etc, getting the better of Tsukiko in combat (and rescuing Haley), he soloed Goliath the vampire giant, and heplayed a significant role in the Tarquin fight. Now he has a dinosaur animal companion, he's pretty powerful in combat.

Haley hasn’t turned the tide of all that many crucial combats but she fought constantly during the Azure City siege and did very well, her attack was the last one against Tarquin and the one that defeated him. She won the combat encounter against Crystal, yea she won that through trickery and charisma but she defeated a significant opponent basically on her own. She was crucial to the ambush of the linear guild and has defeated Sabine several times, her skill set is incredibly useful both in and out of combat.

I agree her skill set is valuable out of combat, but I thought we were talking about their value in combat. If he are talking about their value to the party more generally, then I agree, she is not near the bottom.

Schroeswald

2021-09-16, 08:46 AM

I agree her skill set is valuable out of combat, but I thought we were talking about their value in combat. If he are talking about their value to the party more generally, then I agree, she is not near the bottom.

I mean, everything I mentioned was in combat encounters, in combat she has defeated Sabine, in combat she was the one who had the final attack on Tarquin, in combat she was very effective in holding the line against the hobgoblins, in combat she was crucial to routing the linear guild, and when placed in combat with the more powerful Crystal she won and Crystal died. All of these are combat encounters where she is proving valuable to the team.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-16, 11:21 AM

Eugene accuses Roy of "standing their and twiddling his thumbs" - but IMO that's just another part of establishing Eugene's unfairness. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html +1.

So Roy isn't immune to a poison that knocked out O-Chul, and he doesn't have an insane uncanny dodge like Haley...

If Roy wasn't knocked out for this fight, I am pretty sure he would be throwing his sword and skewering a beholder several times. Or at least once; not sure how the Anti Magic eyeball would impact that Weapon of Legacy he's holding.

Dion

2021-09-16, 11:36 AM

If your goal is to smash some boss monsters, V and Roy are your go-to PCs.

If the goal is to achieve some actual goal, I’d put Haley in charge.

Ionathus

2021-09-16, 01:55 PM

Psyren

2021-09-16, 02:06 PM

I don't remember how the tangent of Haley's effectiveness got started (and yes, this is me invoking Mea Culpa on being too lazy to check), but I don't think combat effectiveness is productive as the sole metric for debate in a thread titled "Roy Greenhilt is useless."

Because if the premise is "what does this person bring to the team?" then out-of-combat skills are absolutely a must-have, whether we're talking about D&D gameplay roles or, more broadly, narrative roles in fiction.

By the strictest definition though, combat skills for a group that is routinely in combat are useful. Therefore the answer to "is X useless", even if they ONLY bring combat skill, is a clear no.

And Roy does bring more than combat skill, so it's open and shut.

Liquor Box

2021-09-16, 06:49 PM

I mean, everything I mentioned was in combat encounters, in combat she has defeated Sabine, in combat she was the one who had the final attack on Tarquin, in combat she was very effective in holding the line against the hobgoblins, in combat she was crucial to routing the linear guild, and when placed in combat with the more powerful Crystal she won and Crystal died. All of these are combat encounters where she is proving valuable to the team.

Yeah, I'm not saying she's worthless in combat at all. I just think that four of the other members are stronger in combat. She has done good things, with 1243 being perhaps the best example.

But in terms of your examples, she did defeat Sabine (as all the order have done with their opposites), I don't rate her shooting of Tarquin because he was already defeated and begging for his life, I don't think holding the line against hobgoblins means much when Belkar was able to rout hundreds of them, and I don't see her as defeating Crystal in combat.

Who in the Order, other than Elan do you think she's more effective than in combat.

I don't remember how the tangent of Haley's effectiveness got started (and yes, this is me invoking Mea Culpa on being too lazy to check), but I don't think combat effectiveness is productive as the sole metric for debate in a thread titled "Roy Greenhilt is useless."
It was because on page one I replied to this thread about Roy's combat effectiveness by saying I thought Roy was good in combat and that I considered Elan the weakest of the Order in combat, followed by Haley.

I took the discussion to be about combat effectiveness. As I've already noted, general effectiveness is a different discussion, and Haley would probably do better in that one.

DLcygnet

2021-09-16, 07:05 PM

Who in the Order, other than Elan do you think she's more effective than in combat.

Easily Durkon. I play healers in RPGs and and video games. We're not allowed to die since we're the HP recharger, but we're not terribly helpful at neutralizing or whittling down HP on any given encounter.

Peelee

2021-09-16, 07:58 PM

Easily Durkon. I play healers in RPGs and and video games. We're not allowed to die since we're the HP recharger, but we're not terribly helpful at neutralizing or whittling down HP on any given encounter.

D&D Clerics are amazing at whittling down HP on any given encounter. Which just fuels my burning desire for Team Pure Cleric. One day I'll get my friends to pull the trigger on that one, and the resulting campaign will be glorious.

RatElemental

2021-09-16, 08:02 PM

Yeah "CoD-zilla" was a big aspect of 3.5. If a cleric was healing you they were wasting their action when they could be killing whatever put you down, and then healing you. If the DM finished you off when you were at -2 while there were still party members up he was either playing an incredibly petty jerk or being one.

brian 333

2021-09-16, 09:02 PM

D&D Clerics are amazing at whittling down HP on any given encounter. Which just fuels my burning desire for Team Pure Cleric. One day I'll get my friends to pull the trigger on that one, and the resulting campaign will be glorious.

It's all in the build. We had the most combat-optimized cleric and the most pacifist healer in the same (all cleric) party. Our fights were short and not very entertaining. The pre-battle buffing was epic.

hungrycrow

2021-09-16, 10:31 PM

I don't think Durkon quite rises to the level of CoDzilla, but he's still pretty powerful. He has decent melee skills, a bunch of really good buffs, and some powerful attack spells. Holy Word alone should solidify Durkon as combat effective.

Liquor Box

2021-09-16, 10:43 PM

Easily Durkon. I play healers in RPGs and and video games. We're not allowed to die since we're the HP recharger, but we're not terribly helpful at neutralizing or whittling down HP on any given encounter.

To be honest I hadn't really considered Durkon's resume within the comic given that Clerics are usually quite strong.

He defeated the bandits, defeated leaky Windstaff, his holy word was decisive against the Linear Guild under the pyramid, but he lost to Malack, played a strong role in the council of clans. Maybe not so strong as Haley's resume?

hungrycrow

2021-09-16, 10:58 PM

To be honest I hadn't really considered Durkon's resume within the comic given that Clerics are usually quite strong.

He defeated the bandits, defeated leaky Windstaff, his holy word was decisive against the Linear Guild under the pyramid, but he lost to Malack, played a strong role in the council of clans. Maybe not so strong as Haley's resume?

Throw in him smashing the Huecuva and ninja that attacked Hinjo.

Peelee

2021-09-17, 06:53 AM

To be honest I hadn't really considered Durkon's resume within the comic given that Clerics are usually quite strong.

He defeated the bandits, defeated leaky Windstaff, his holy word was decisive against the Linear Guild under the pyramid, but he lost to Malack, played a strong role in the council of clans. Maybe not so strong as Haley's resume?

I'm not disagreeing with you, but the fight against Malack is a difficult point to consider, since Malack was also a Cleric.:smallwink:

JonahFalcon

2021-09-17, 08:57 AM

If I recall, Haley talks to Roy's corpse about how nothing is going right without Roy, and later, Belkar tells Roy that everyone was completely useless (including himself) without Roy and completely out of control and making situations more complicated because everyone has their own motivations, and basically reverting to the chaos the team was when first fighting kobolds in On the Order of PCs.

Ionathus

2021-09-17, 09:29 AM

I'm not disagreeing with you, but the fight against Malack is a difficult point to consider, since Malack was also a Cleric.:smallwink:

AND a vampire. The fact that Durkon even held his own is impressive.

Metastachydium

2021-09-17, 09:40 AM

AND a vampire. The fact that Durkon even held his own is impressive.

Bah, Belkar guts a vampire cleric of roughly the same level faster than she can cast.

Ionathus

2021-09-17, 11:13 AM

Bah, Belkar guts a vampire cleric of roughly the same level faster than she can cast.

My understanding is that Ponchula was 4+ levels below Belkar (11ish vs 15ish), but does the vampire block level adjustment change that equation?

Either way, Belkar got a lucky sneak attack (narratively, not mechanically, he's still not a rogue :smallwink:) on her; I don't think it would've been that one-sided if they'd met head-on in a duel, like Durkon & Malack did. But with his swanky new magic items and protection from domination, I give Belkar fairer odds than when he tangled with Malack.

hungrycrow

2021-09-17, 11:33 AM

Durkon assumed that anyone else in the party would have lost to Malack, and the end of the throne room fight kind of proved that assumption correct.

Metastachydium

2021-09-17, 11:42 AM

My understanding is that Ponchula was 4+ levels below Belkar (11ish vs 15ish), but does the vampire block level adjustment change that equation?

You got it wrong. It's nameless female vampire's level 11+ versus Malack's semi-confirmed (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?294943-Word-of-Recall&p=15715754#post15715754) no higher than 12.
As for the LA, that matters little here. That +8 is mostly just a "don't play these critters" sign in flashy neons. I'd say the +2 bump to CR (what two more PC class levels would give) might be a more useful number here.

Either way, Belkar got a lucky sneak attack (narratively, not mechanically, he's still not a rogue :smallwink:) on her; I don't think it would've been that one-sided if they'd met head-on in a duel, like Durkon & Malack did. But with his swanky new magic items and protection from domination, I give Belkar fairer odds than when he tangled with Malack.

Fair. (Still, if he could just one shot her like that, I'd bet on the Belkster-with-the-clasp-on in one-on-one.)

Velaryon

2021-09-18, 06:40 PM

I do think that the current fight is… well, I’m fine with the general premise of “Team Serini is incredibly dangerous”, but I’d say the Order is being incapacitated a bit too much before turning it around for me to entirely like it - it feels like the competence they’ve gained in the last book or two has been reset. They did okay in BRItF and really well in UD - and the final fight in BRItF was mostly the team trying to run away while the Dining Room fight would have been a complete loss if not for Belkar and Durkon breaking through at just the right moments.

It may not be intentional, but this is pretty faithful to the game. High level D&D, especially in 3.5, is basically rocket tag. And from a narrative perspective the stakes are continuously increasing, so seeing the Order struggle more against encounters does make sense.

We see how Belkar and Haley match up against Crystal and Bozzok: Haley loses while Belkar manages to stall until Bozzok leaves.

Another thing to mention is that we're sort of talking about their builds, but their stats can always be outweighed by good tactics.

I saw this less as a statement of Belkar being objectively stronger than Haley, and more that he was the right tool for the job. Similar to how Haley is doing well against Serini and Sunny while Belkar is doing basically nothing to help in that fight. It's just not a scenario where his particular strengths come to bear.

Squire Doodad

2021-09-18, 07:50 PM

Liquor Box

2021-09-18, 08:00 PM

I saw this less as a statement of Belkar being objectively stronger than Haley, and more that he was the right tool for the job. Similar to how Haley is doing well against Serini and Sunny while Belkar is doing basically nothing to help in that fight. It's just not a scenario where his particular strengths come to bear.

Not sure this is true. There was nothing specialised about the fight with Bozzok etc. It was simply who was better in a stand up fight.

In this fight, Hayley was the only one left capable of doing anything. If it had been her hit with the emotion spell and Belkar who simply lost his weapon, it might have been Belkar who grappled Serini after using his jump skill. Indeed, early in the encounter a lot of the speculation was around Belkar winning the encounter with his dinosaur companion, and that might have been what happened if the ruling on how it interacted with the anti-magic ray was different.

Ruck

2021-09-18, 10:39 PM

Bah, Belkar guts a vampire cleric of roughly the same level faster than she can cast.
Belkar fought the same vampire Durkon did and was taken out of commission in one round.

Ionathus

2021-09-19, 12:41 AM

There was nothing specialised about the fight with Bozzok etc.

It was simply who was better in a stand up fight.

Haley isn't good in stand-up fights. She's a rogue and is better suited to the back line or hit-and-run.

Belkar held his own because he's a melee combatant. It's his job to be up in the thick of it. He was *specialised* for that role, so he did better in it, but that's not a criticism of Haley's skills.

Liquor Box

2021-09-19, 12:49 AM

Haley isn't good in stand-up fights. She's a rogue and is better suited to the back line or hit-and-run.

Belkar held his own because he's a melee combatant. It's his job to be up in the thick of it. He was *specialised* for that role, so he did better in it, but that's not a criticism of Haley's skills.

Oh, yes I appreciate that Hayley is not specialised for that sort of fight. But my point was that that will be the majority of fights they run into.

Belkar is not really specialised for that sort of fight either (Roy is). Belkar is quite versatile - he was just as good at hit and run as Hayley after Azure City fell (he actually rescued Haley after Tsukiko cornered her), and he also used hit and run effectively against Miko.

That's why I was judging it by running through their encounters so far. Noone will shine all the time, but some will more than others. The fact that Haley struggles in situations they run into reasonably often is a mark against her. If we talk about how good a person is in combat we can't just disregard the situations they're not specialised in (unless that's a very narrow set of situations).

Metastachydium

2021-09-19, 08:03 AM

Belkar fought the same vampire Durkon did and was taken out of commission in one round.

Lack of intel can do that to you.

Ruck

2021-09-19, 05:34 PM

Lack of intel can do that to you.

Let's back up a step:

I'm not disagreeing with you, but the fight against Malack is a difficult point to consider, since Malack was also a Cleric.:smallwink:

AND a vampire. The fact that Durkon even held his own is impressive.

Bah, Belkar guts a vampire cleric of roughly the same level faster than she can cast.

I think touting Belkar's skill against vampires as a point in his favor against Durkon is a bit shabby considering they fought the same vampire, and Durkon put up a decent fight while Belkar was taken out in one round.

JonahFalcon

2021-09-19, 05:48 PM

Remember when V took down Z? S/he did it by attacking him with a crossbow ("I believe the appropriate appellation is "Sneak attack, bitch!") Because one set of skills wasn't useful as another in that situation.

There are situations where one class will outshine another one.

TooSoon

2021-09-19, 08:57 PM

In terms of how effective they should be, if the author didn't have to nerf them for the plot, this is probably an accurate representation of their usefulness:

1) V

2) Durkon

3) Everyone else.

Metastachydium

2021-09-20, 07:16 AM

Let's back up a step:

I think touting Belkar's skill against vampires as a point in his favor against Durkon is a bit shabby considering they fought the same vampire, and Durkon put up a decent fight while Belkar was taken out in one round.

It's not quite as simple as that. Let's take a look at fight with the Thieves' Guild again! People argue that the respective efficacies of Haley and Belkar against Bozzok and Crystal are nonindicative because the situation played to Belkar's strengths. Let's not get into the extent to which this is a valid point. If correct, this is a fair argument.
The fight with Malack is the reverse of this situation: while Haley was far better acquainted with the capabilities of Bozzok and Crystal than Belkar, Belkar was at a serious disadvantage against Malack from the get-go since he didn't know he's a vampire and even if he did, he is likely to know less about intelligent undead than Durkon (who has native access to Knowledge (religion)). As a cleric, Durkon is also far better equipped to deal with a vampire (good Will saves + high Wisdom, access to spells in general and positive energy effects to fire off in particular) than Belkar (poor Will, low WIS, no spells). And yet, when he knew he'll be up against a vampire and made arrangements to boost his efficacy against them, Belkar managed to one-shot a vampire cleric with roughly the same number of levels as Malack, while Durkon lost his fight despite being a better tool for the job, mechanically speaking.

Not that the thing with vampire clerics wasn't only a semi-serious argument. I place Durkon second-to-last

in no small part as a result of his preferring to play support <and being built mainly for that> (although it also bears nothing that the three martials are better with weapons and V has superior offensive capabilities with spells, so he's pretty much destined to stay far from the top).

brian 333

2021-09-20, 10:58 AM

Like all Hulk vs. Superman comparisons, the only thing being measured is combat power.

But there are a lot of things that magnify combat power indirectly. As Roy famously said, "That's how you use an intelligence modifier in combat!"

Haley used her charisma to defeat Bozzok and Crystal.

Belkar used his stubborn anger to defeat the hydra.

Durkon used his empathy to defeat Greg.

Elan used puppetry to defeat an island full of orcs.

V used hir vocabulary to defeat a room full of ninja-goblins.

For Roy, defeating a tough monster with his sword makes sense
For Haley, defeating that same monster requires she make use of her force multipliers.

They can both get the job done. But Roy has the advantage in a vs. challenge because force multipliers are extremely situational.

Psyren

2021-09-20, 11:35 AM

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-20, 02:27 PM

Roy's sword also has powers only he can access, which we haven't fully explored yet, and that could come in extremely handy later. So that is another tangible capability he brings to the party that no one else could.
He's also a leader. There's an old adage about "a dozen soldiers ably led can beat a hundred without a head" so Roy's leadership is why this A-Team even works together at all.

Psyren

2021-09-20, 03:19 PM

He's also a leader. There's an old adage about "a dozen soldiers ably led can beat a hundred without a head" so Roy's leadership is why this A-Team even works together at all.

Oh I know, I covered that earlier in the thread

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-20, 11:04 PM

Oh I know, I covered that earlier in the thread
Are we allowed to be in violent agreement like that?
*off to check forum rules* :smallbiggrin:

hungrycrow

2021-09-21, 12:52 AM

Are we allowed to be in violent agreement like that?
*off to check forum rules* :smallbiggrin:

I think the unofficial rule is that you have to pretend that you actually made a slightly different point than the one he originally made, and then argue about that for three more pages before going into a tangent about Star Wars.

brian 333

2021-09-21, 10:31 AM

I never know when the SW digression is appropriate. I keep trying LotR and Harry Potter, but that's never really appropriate.

One thing I have noticed in determining character power is that an optimal scenario for spellcasters is always assumed.

Time and again I was required to play the party wizard because I was the only member of our group that could keep a non-multiclassed wizard alive to level 3. Most of the time in a dungeon crawl you are micro-managing every cantrip casting and hoping for a chance to rest and replenish your half-exhausted spells per day. This never happens before boss battles.

A wizard that can alter the boss encounter to favor the good guys is valuable, but it takes a good meatshield to get him there, to keep the mooks from killing him, and to get his behind (and his last level 1 spell) back to a safe camp.

V has never been swarmed by mooks while Roy was around. But look what happened in Azure City when he wasn't.

Lord Torath

2021-09-21, 01:01 PM

V has never been swarmed by mooks while Roy was around. Well, at least not when Roy's subordinates were obeying his orders: Defense is for Losers! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html)

TooSoon

2021-09-21, 03:59 PM

brian 333

2021-09-21, 05:14 PM

At level 8 it is a good debate which of these guys was more useful in which situations.

At level 17+, which is where V almost certainly is now, there is no debate and the author has to constantly railroad/nerf V with the plot.

Roy's strength is he can fight for the team as a front liner and soak up damage... which a wizard can do with magic. V doesn't have conjuration (part of the plot railroading) so he's limited to transmutations like shapechange or illusions, but either can be used to exceed the value of Roy as a frontliner.

Hayley, Elan and Belkar have functions that are similarly replaceable by magic. Durkon and Elan can heal, but so can potions. If utilized properly, the wizard should be far and away the most useful character. Roy is no more useless than the rest of the team should be in practice.

V can replicate the role of any of the rest of the team with magic, but none of them can do what he does with magic. His magic is also just more powerful. I had a thread I started on here where I asked how V could theoretically beat Xykon in 1 round. Numerous plausible suggestions were made.

If V wanted to emulate Roy, he could. Not as well as Roy because V will always be a few combat feats behind. And there will be time limits Roy never has to worry about. And there will be buff spells eating up V's spells per day. And V won't be able to use hir best spells in combat because the mooks will be nailing that crappy AC.

So, no. Outside of scenarios which begin with V at full strength, there's not a snowball's chance that V could be as good as Roy. And the worst part of this oft-disproven theory is, while the wizard is playing at fighter, where's the party wizard?

Oh, and in one to six hours when the wizard needs to rest, who is going to stand guard?

Essentially, when you melee-buff a wizard you use up half your arcane spell slots and trade in a great wizard for a mediocre (temporary) fighter. It's an idea that can be made to work in theory or in Neverwinter Nights, (where you can rest and replenish spells as often as you like,) but it always fails in tabletop.

JonahFalcon

2021-09-21, 05:21 PM

It's very easy to decimate V.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

If there's one thing Eugene and V have in common, it's thinking that magic is all-powerful.

TooSoon

2021-09-21, 06:28 PM

If V wanted to emulate Roy, he could. Not as well as Roy because V will always be a few combat feats behind. And there will be time limits Roy never has to worry about. And there will be buff spells eating up V's spells per day. And V won't be able to use hir best spells in combat because the mooks will be nailing that crappy AC.

So, no. Outside of scenarios which begin with V at full strength, there's not a snowball's chance that V could be as good as Roy. And the worst part of this oft-disproven theory is, while the wizard is playing at fighter, where's the party wizard?

Oh, and in one to six hours when the wizard needs to rest, who is going to stand guard?

Essentially, when you melee-buff a wizard you use up half your arcane spell slots and trade in a great wizard for a mediocre (temporary) fighter. It's an idea that can be made to work in theory or in Neverwinter Nights, (where you can rest and replenish spells as often as you like,) but it always fails in tabletop.

We're talking about a level 17+ wizard being used optimally, not subject to plot railroading. If V had conjuration he just summons something stronger than Roy to be a meatshield, or more likely a whole bunch of somethings. V can also turn into stuff much stronger than Roy with Shapechange, or use illusions to create foes stronger than Roy. Roy being strong outside of battle isn't terrible useful.

Just have a party of 6 wizards if you want to know where the wizard is while one wizard is doing something else. Magic can be used to replicate all the stuff the others can do and more.

JNAProductions

2021-09-21, 06:57 PM

RatElemental

2021-09-21, 08:07 PM

This isn't a story about optimized... Anyone, really.

This is a story about characters.

While true, TooSoon has a point. V, even with conjuration banned wouldn't have to go gish to emulate Roy's frontline fighterness, they could just make a shadow conjuration or dominate something big and nasty.

danielxcutter

2021-09-21, 08:42 PM

Heck, they know Polymorph and the most they’ve used it for is to turn into a badger to dig under the sand. Even if they don’t turn into something big and strong, they could still turn into something small and hard to hit while retaining their casting abilities.

Velaryon

2021-09-21, 09:41 PM

It's not quite as simple as that. Let's take a look at fight with the Thieves' Guild again! People argue that the respective efficacies of Haley and Belkar against Bozzok and Crystal are nonindicative because the situation played to Belkar's strengths. Let's not get into the extent to which this is a valid point. If correct, this is a fair argument.

Also worth noting: Haley was fighting the thieves' guild for some time before Belkar joined the battle... in an enclosed area, which is not ideal for an archer She was still doing well until Crystal (her personal nemesis) gimped her by destroying her bow. Belkar came in late to a fight that Haley had already been fighting on her own for a while. He admittedly embarrassed Crystal and had the upper hand against Bozzok, but I think the circumstances are enough to say it's not a clear-cut indicator of superior combat skills.

And yet, when he knew he'll be up against a vampire and made arrangements to boost his efficacy against them, Belkar managed to one-shot a vampire cleric with roughly the same number of levels as Malack, while Durkon lost his fight despite being a better tool for the job, mechanically speaking.

Do you mean HPoH? It's not really fair to count him since he literally exposed his chest for Belkar to stake.

brian 333

2021-09-21, 10:39 PM

The MunchKING

2021-09-21, 11:03 PM

On the other hand, a few really low level spells that buff Roy make him more powerful than anything you could summnn.

I don't know (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm), a 38 HD Solar (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) not only fights like a high level fighter, but has loads of Angel powers on top of it.

And I'd be willing to bet Level 16 Roy can beat anything a Level 17 wizard could summon anyway.

Oh, well if we're assuming level 17 (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterVIII.htm) that gets rid of the bonkers that is Gate, but he only took a hit from one of these (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#triceratops). IIRC he didn't kill it.

I mean that WAS after the team collectively fought a Summon Monster 9 Sand Elemental though...

TooSoon

2021-09-21, 11:55 PM

The argument that Roy is useful because if the wizard in the party turns into a dragon or something, then the party loses their caster, only makes sense if we assume Roy needs to be in the party to begin with. A party of 6 wizards can do everything the current party can do and more is the point.

Roy is useful because the story demands he is, but in reality he (like most of the party) is functionally useless compared to the casters. Fortunately the story is written in a way that plays that down.

Elenian

2021-09-22, 12:35 AM

...I'd be willing to bet Level 16 Roy can beat anything a Level 17 wizard could summon anyway.

That's a bet you will lose. Wizards have full-on Gate by 17. Roy is awesome, but he's not going to beat, say, an Uvuudaum in single combat. Even Greater Planar Binding at level 15 will get you a Pit Fiend or Planetar which will give even a fairly optimized fighter serious problems. Heck, you can get a Trumpet Archon from level 11 that would be a nontrivial threat. Most of these options don't cost you any spell slots at all, in that they have vast numbers of useful spell-likes, or full-on clerical casting of their own.

hamishspence

2021-09-22, 01:18 AM

I don't know (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm), a 38 HD Solar (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) not only fights like a high level fighter, but has loads of Angel powers on top of it.

I could see a solar with more than the minimum 22 Hit Dice being ruled as a unique being, since it does not adhere to the basic statblock - and thus not controllable via Gate:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

So if you just say "Solar" then the DM can restrict you to 22 HD solars, and you can't get an advanced solar without it being uncontrollable.

TooSoon

2021-09-22, 02:47 AM

I could see a solar with more than the minimum 22 Hit Dice being ruled as a unique being, since it does not adhere to the basic statblock - and thus not controllable via Gate:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

So if you just say "Solar" then the DM can restrict you to 22 HD solars, and you can't get an advanced solar without it being uncontrollable.

I'm not familiar with the rule that says a solar becomes a unique being at level 23. Is there one? Or is that just your opinion? It sounds like the latter.

Liquor Box

2021-09-22, 03:47 AM

Roy's strength is he can fight for the team as a front liner and soak up damage... which a wizard can do with magic. V doesn't have conjuration (part of the plot railroading) so he's limited to transmutations like shapechange or illusions, but either can be used to exceed the value of Roy as a frontliner.

It is not railroading or nerfing that V isn't the optimal wizard or that he doesn't have conjuration. V also has only the spells he has, and it's not nerfing to restrict V to those.

In games it may be typical for every character to be optimised, but that's not any sort of logical necessity. It's not the way it is with people in real life, or with characters in the OotS world.

hamishspence

2021-09-22, 04:55 AM

I'm not familiar with the rule that says a solar becomes a unique being at level 23. Is there one? Or is that just your opinion? It sounds like the latter.

All "advanced beings" are unique in the sense that they only exist within the setting "at the DM's discretion".

Similar principles would apply to not allowing players to summon an advanced animal via Summon Nature's Ally spells.

Or to spellcasters trying to summon a famous advanced Balor. They'd be a one-of-a-kind, you'd have to call them by name, and they'd be uncontrolled.

TooSoon

2021-09-22, 05:45 AM

All "advanced beings" are unique in the sense that they only exist within the setting "at the DM's discretion".

Similar principles would apply to not allowing players to summon an advanced animal via Summon Nature's Ally spells.

Or to spellcasters trying to summon a famous advanced Balor. They'd be a one-of-a-kind, you'd have to call them by name, and they'd be uncontrolled.

Everything only exists at the DMs discretion though. I mean, your characters sheets need to be ticked off by the DM, the monsters on each settings, and the NPCs, are all created by and at the DMs discretion, and many don't use exact stat blocks from a text book, and even if they do they all have their own unique backstory for the campaign setting, so are all "unique" in the sense you mean. Long story short, there's no rule that a Solar above level 23 can't be gated just because the sample specs don't go that high. This just seems like a personal in-house rule you would like to use. It's not an actual rule. If a level 17 wizard wants to Gate in a level 38 Solar then it seems the rules allow them to do it, and control it.

Metastachydium

2021-09-22, 06:29 AM

Also worth noting: Haley was fighting the thieves' guild for some time before Belkar joined the battle... in an enclosed area, which is not ideal for an archer She was still doing well until Crystal (her personal nemesis) gimped her by destroying her bow. Belkar came in late to a fight that Haley had already been fighting on her own for a while. He admittedly embarrassed Crystal and had the upper hand against Bozzok, but I think the circumstances are enough to say it's not a clear-cut indicator of superior combat skills.

Yeah, she managed to kill a few polite mooks who slowly walked towards her one at a time, and then three currently unarmed nobodies before she was power attacked into submission by some dumb brute and Celia, of all people, had to bail her out.

Do you mean HPoH? It's not really fair to count him since he literally exposed his chest for Belkar to stake.

Nope. I mean Greg's right hand woman.

hamishspence

2021-09-22, 06:39 AM

If a level 17 wizard wants to Gate in a level 38 Solar then it seems the rules allow them to do it, and control it.
34 Hit Dice, not 38. 17x2 = 34.

And it depends how they're phrasing the Gate spell.

IMO, if they say "I want to Gate in a Solar" it is within the DM's remit to say "OK, you get a solar" - and give them the basic 22 HD one, regardless of how high level the PC is. Players get what they DM chooses to hand out, and what DMs choose to hand out can be assumed to be, by default, the minimum.

If they ask for more than "the regular monster" - it's up to the DM. They can say if the player asks for "A 34 HD solar" that none exist, and not be considered to be "twisting the rules". Advanced monsters are much more overtly discretionary than non-advanced monsters.

And if the player finds out the name of a particular, famous, unusually powerful solar, and say "I wish to Gate in the Solar Avarmaritz" - then that is, by definition, a unique creature.

Long story short, there's no rule that a Solar above level 23 can't be gated just because the sample specs don't go that high. This just seems like a personal in-house rule you would like to use. It's not an actual rule. If a level 17 wizard wants to Gate in a level 38 Solar then it seems the rules allow them to do it, and control it.

If nothing else, updating a monster from "standard" to "advanced" requires a lot of extra work on the DM's part, if it's a lot of hit dice that the monster gains. Not really practical in a combat situation, where the PC is gating in a monster, as one standard action, to attack other monsters. Expecting the rest of the players to be patient while the game grinds to a halt while the DM adds 12 hit dice to the "basic monster statblock", is, IMO, expecting too much.

brian 333

2021-09-22, 11:24 AM

We're talking about a level 17+ wizard being used optimally, not subject to plot railroading. If V had conjuration he just summons something stronger than Roy to be a meatshield, or more likely a whole bunch of somethings. V can also turn into stuff much stronger than Roy with Shapechange, or use illusions to create foes stronger than Roy. Roy being strong outside of battle isn't terrible useful.

Just have a party of 6 wizards if you want to know where the wizard is while one wizard is doing something else. Magic can be used to replicate all the stuff the others can do and more.

This sounds like something that looks good in theory. Have you ever playtested it?

Not as a final boss encounter where everyone starts at full hp and spell slots, but as a campaign where the enemy reacts to invasion?

My bet is that you have not. I have. A lot. I came into D&D from wargames, and replaying scenarios was our thing.

An all wizard party uses up too many spell slots to get anywhere, and when they get there they have already used up their spell slots and they have nothing left for the boss. Or they retreat, and have to travel a long way to get to a safe rest area, (or endure countless interruptions in their much needed rest.) By the time they are ready to go back the enemy has entrenched, trapped, and called up reinforcements, leaving your party worse off than before. And then you finally get to the boss and discover he's watched your group long enough to know a disjunction spell turns Hulk back into Banner. (Or worse,) he's packed up the treasure, killed the hostages, and split while you were killing off his minions.

Once, (about a dozen times in that test,) one of our group made almost the exact assertion. Another player said he could take out a team of four wizards with four rogues. The wizard player cried foul when the rogue player simply waited for spells to time out before attacking.

It's a nice theory, but outside of scenarios designed to favor the wizard it never works as well as it does in theory. Let me know how your playtesting works out.

For a much smaller investment the same wizard can buff Roy, (a handfull of level 1&2 slots with maybe a 3 and 5 tossed in for fun,) and instead of retreating when the buffs start to fade, give Roy a Potion (TM), a few more low level buffs, and keep grinding, so that the boss never has time to reorganize or pack up, and your wizard arrives in his lair ready to do some wizardry.

hungrycrow

2021-09-22, 11:50 AM

This sounds like something that looks good in theory. Have you ever playtested it?

Not as a final boss encounter where everyone starts at full hp and spell slots, but as a campaign where the enemy reacts to invasion?

My bet is that you have not. I have. A lot. I came into D&D from wargames, and replaying scenarios was our thing.

An all wizard party uses up too many spell slots to get anywhere, and when they get there they have already used up their spell slots and they have nothing left for the boss. Or they retreat, and have to travel a long way to get to a safe rest area, (or endure countless interruptions in their much needed rest.) By the time they are ready to go back the enemy has entrenched, trapped, and called up reinforcements, leaving your party worse off than before. And then you finally get to the boss and discover he's watched your group long enough to know a disjunction spell turns Hulk back into Banner. (Or worse,) he's packed up the treasure, killed the hostages, and split while you were killing off his minions.

Once, (about a dozen times in that test,) one of our group made almost the exact assertion. Another player said he could take out a team of four wizards with four rogues. The wizard player cried foul when the rogue player simply waited for spells to time out before attacking.

It's a nice theory, but outside of scenarios designed to favor the wizard it never works as well as it does in theory. Let me know how your playtesting works out.

For a much smaller investment the same wizard can buff Roy, (a handfull of level 1&2 slots with maybe a 3 and 5 tossed in for fun,) and instead of retreating when the buffs start to fade, give Roy a Potion (TM), a few more low level buffs, and keep grinding, so that the boss never has time to reorganize or pack up, and your wizard arrives in his lair ready to do some wizardry.

This is an OotS forum, I assume most of us have played Dnd a fair bit. Admittedly I've never playtested this specific scenario, mostly because I've found a single mid-op wizard is enough to start controlling the game, and trying to play four complete with contingency lists and minionmancy would get pretty boring.

In this scenario, aren't we talking about 17th level wizards? Why are they running away on foot instead of teleporting? Why aren't they getting their meatshields ahead of time with planar binding or animate dead?

TooSoon

2021-09-22, 04:12 PM

34 Hit Dice, not 38. 17x2 = 34.

And it depends how they're phrasing the Gate spell.

IMO, if they say "I want to Gate in a Solar" it is within the DM's remit to say "OK, you get a solar" - and give them the basic 22 HD one, regardless of how high level the PC is. Players get what they DM chooses to hand out, and what DMs choose to hand out can be assumed to be, by default, the minimum.

If they ask for more than "the regular monster" - it's up to the DM. They can say if the player asks for "A 34 HD solar" that none exist, and not be considered to be "twisting the rules". Advanced monsters are much more overtly discretionary than non-advanced monsters.

And if the player finds out the name of a particular, famous, unusually powerful solar, and say "I wish to Gate in the Solar Avarmaritz" - then that is, by definition, a unique creature.

If nothing else, updating a monster from "standard" to "advanced" requires a lot of extra work on the DM's part, if it's a lot of hit dice that the monster gains. Not really practical in a combat situation, where the PC is gating in a monster, as one standard action, to attack other monsters. Expecting the rest of the players to be patient while the game grinds to a halt while the DM adds 12 hit dice to the "basic monster statblock", is, IMO, expecting too much.

Level 34, excuse me. Typo.

All you're telling us is your personal preference, not that there is any rule against it.

Dion

2021-09-22, 04:44 PM

Level 34, excuse me. Typo.

All you're telling us is your personal preference, not that there is any rule against it.

Hmm… you’re allowed to gate a “particular being” or a “kind of being”.

I fully agree a generic 22HD solar is a “kind of being”.

I’m not sure if a 34HD solar is a “kind of being”.

Once you start asking for a solar with a specific set of attributes (such as HD), I have wonder if you’re not falling into the particular being territory.

brian 333

2021-09-22, 05:04 PM

This is an OotS forum, I assume most of us have played Dnd a fair bit. Admittedly I've never playtested this specific scenario, mostly because I've found a single mid-op wizard is enough to start controlling the game, and trying to play four complete with contingency lists and minionmancy would get pretty boring.

In this scenario, aren't we talking about 17th level wizards? Why are they running away on foot instead of teleporting? Why aren't they getting their meatshields ahead of time with planar binding or animate dead?

Your DM is easy on you, isn't he?

You could get as many minions as you like with Planar Binding and Animate Dead, and Roy would chew through them like a hog at a bake sale. That's assuming your bound minions don't escape and attack their summoner first. (Any bound outsider capable of contesting level 16 Roy is likely to make one of its three saves/day against your mage.)

And gate. Ah, yes, the ultimate summon spell. What do you have to offer a 34 hd solar that it would accept as payment to be your meatshield for a dungeon crawl? And what are you willing to do if you can't pay up on payday?

But assume you get a solar. (Whoops, there go your undead minions!) A properly buffed team of average level 17 can take it down. Without much problem. (And you still owe the promised pay.)

Roy can't be dispelled or banished, which all summons can. Roy won't turn into an AC 13, 43 hp liability when spell durations expire. And Roy doesn't require half your high level spell slots every few hours to stay in the game.

And I'm sure you won't believe me, so playtest it yourself. Be fair, play both sides, and try to win every time. I await your report.

The MunchKING

2021-09-22, 05:36 PM

The original quotes I was responding to were

On the other hand, a few really low level spells that buff Roy make him more powerful than anything you could summnn.

And I'd be willing to bet Level 16 Roy can beat anything a Level 17 wizard could summon anyway.

"Some buffs make Roy better than ANYTHING you can summon" and "Level 16 Roy beats ANYTHING a level 17 Wizard could summon".

But assume you get a solar. (Whoops, there go your undead minions!) A properly buffed team of average level 17 can take it down. Without much problem. (And you still owe the promised pay.)

Now it's morphed into a full team AVERAGE level 17, no stated restrictions on class.

Roy can't be dispelled or banished, which all summons can.

Roy can't banish or dispel which makes this comparison useless.

Also, Plane Shift (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html) disagrees with you.

And I'm sure you won't believe me, so playtest it yourself. Be fair, play both sides, and try to win every time. I await your report.

Well the actual "real world" results would also vary based on a bunch of factors like terrain, and resources.

Metastachydium

2021-09-22, 05:45 PM

But assume you get a solar. (Whoops, there go your undead minions!) A properly buffed team of average level 17 can take it down. Without much problem. (And you still owe the promised pay.)

Roy can't be dispelled or banished, which all summons can. Roy won't turn into an AC 13, 43 hp liability when spell durations expire. And Roy doesn't require half your high level spell slots every few hours to stay in the game.

You do realize that anything capable of easily obliterating a 34 HD solar (obscene amounts of hp, DR and regeneration only bypassed by epic and evil, tons of SLAs including Wish, 20th level cleric casting, a +54 to Will saves against banishment if you overcome its SR &c. &c.) will simply pulverize a level 16 fighter even faster and then the fighter is dead?

Dion

2021-09-22, 05:56 PM

I think the argument is “a different party with several combat oriented spellcasters and fewer bards could beat this party in combat.”

I agree with this.

TooSoon

2021-09-22, 06:20 PM

Hmm… you’re allowed to gate a “particular being” or a “kind of being”.

I fully agree a generic 22HD solar is a “kind of being”.

I’m not sure if a 34HD solar is a “kind of being”.

Once you start asking for a solar with a specific set of attributes (such as HD), I have wonder if you’re not falling into the particular being territory.

Is a 22HD dragon a "kind of being", but a 34HD dragon is not? This just seems like a personal preference, not anything in the rules. Not that I'm saying to try and to gate in dragons, I'm just saying this seems like some kind of personal preference, not something in the rules. To anyone who takes what I just said too literally; the black dragon in the manual goes up to 38+HD, which is in the great wyrm category. Now clearly it can go above 38HD, the manual just doesn't keep listing beyond the 38HD type. You can do your own calculations as it levels up as the DM. That doesn't make a 38HD black dragon "non-unique" and a 39HD black dragon "unique".

Dion

2021-09-22, 07:54 PM

Is a 22HD dragon a "kind of being", but a 34HD dragon is not?

A mature adult black dragon has 22hd by default, and a black wyrm has 34hd by default, so yes… I think they’re both a “kind of being”.

But I think we’re confusing a “particular being” vs a “unique being”.

Tom, the ancient black dragon with 15 cleric levels, who always brings his wand of resurrection with him, is a particular being, but not a unique being.

The Tarrasque is unique.

At any rate, the whole gate thing is silly.

Yes, you can gate in a huge monster. If your DM lets you, you can even gate in and control a huge monster with extra hot die. Get a 34th level half orc Barbarian if you want.

But none of that makes Roy useless.

Mechalich

2021-09-22, 08:27 PM

I think the argument is “a different party with several combat oriented spellcasters and fewer bards could beat this party in combat.”

I agree with this.

It's not even that. You could take this same core party assembly and build it better and make it much more powerful. Roy's actually the simplest case, he's a strength-based fighter using a two-handed weapon, which is an acceptable approach for a fighter, but his attributes are badly arranged for his build and has poor skill and feat selection. He doesn't appear to use Power Attack or Combat Expertise (and his Int qualifies for the latter certainly). Belkar likewise has a mismatch between his attributes and his class - no ranger should be using Wis as a dump stat - and his build is actually really bad because TWF-ing is actually terrible in 3.5. His skills and feats are also terribly arranged and even if you count Bloodfeast as an animal companion now, he spent most of the comic without one and for some reason no one has bothered to dispel the polymorph effect for hundreds of strips. Elan has terrible attributes as well - his low Int robs him of skill points and I don't think he's ever even bothered to use bardic knowledge, and he's entered a prestige class that appears to be genuinely terribly and robs him of all his higher-level bard abilities.

Durkon and V are better. They're mostly limited by poor spell selection (and Durkon burning apparently all his 4th level spell slots on Sending literally every day) and V's having the most powerful spell school (by a significant margin) as their prohibited school. However their builds are aggressively generic and neither has a prestige class or item creation feats or any other force multiplier in their build. Haley actually has the best build of the group, as an archery rogue willing to employ fairly aggressive UMD. However, Rogue is low-tier class and archery is a low-damage option in 3.5e.

Of course, it's not like the comic is unaware of this. The story has engaged in numerous circumlocutions to obscure the Order's weakness and to prevent their slightly-better-optimized mirror images in the Linear Guild from utterly pulverizing them (notably by removing the divine caster from said group). At the same time, it hasn't really hesitated to display how weak the Order's non-casters actually are, like the time Redcloak almost killed Roy, Elan, Haley, and Belkar using a single summoning spell.

Even more broadly there's also the issue that basically everyone in the comic is brutally undergeared. If the members of the Order are at even 25% of their appropriate WBL I'd be greatly surprised, something that actually makes the impacts of Tier-variance even worse.

The MunchKING

2021-09-22, 08:47 PM

Elan did at least one successful Bardic Knowledge (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0260.html).

brian 333

2021-09-22, 10:06 PM

You do realize that anything capable of easily obliterating a 34 HD solar (obscene amounts of hp, DR and regeneration only bypassed by epic and evil, tons of SLAs including Wish, 20th level cleric casting, a +54 to Will saves against banishment if you overcome its SR &c. &c.) will simply pulverize a level 16 fighter even faster and then the fighter is dead?

And I'm certain your DM will let you summon as many as you like.

The first hurdle you'll have to overcome is to get this being to agree to help. Easy in a theoretical vs. challenge. Almost impossible in a campaign. The solar has no reason to do what you want and if you have something to trade, chances are real good you don't have two, so this is a once in a lifetime summon.

Theorycrafting allows me to gear up Roy to the same expense level your wizard spent on the summon. So I buy regen items and spell immunity items and size enhancement items, nullifying the Solar's advantages, and then we see if that green glow is worth anything in battle.

But wait, that's not all! Because all Roy has to do is jump around the Solar and kill your mage. Contract fulfilled; solar goes home. I hope your guy can pay off the solar, (or enjoys polishing alabaster furniture.)

Theorizing is fun. If it's never tested the e-paper it's printed on is worth more.

The MunchKING

2021-09-22, 10:21 PM

Yeah because Roy was known for having a 9 foot vertical while wearing plate.

Besides, we all know jumping tends not to work well for fighters with fancy swords (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8631ukAVr6g&t=148s).

danielxcutter

2021-09-22, 10:27 PM

Uh, I’m pretty sure even a default Solar can beat the crap out of Roy buffed with only 9th-level spell. If he’s buffed with a variety of spells - which is absolutely possible, because the Solar’s not entering combat instantly with buffs and isn’t sticking around long for the summoner to give a lot of them - then he has a better chance, but a) it’s CR 23, he’s not expected to solo it anyways and b) that’s disingenuous if you’re comparing their base capabilities - and he’d probably STILL lose.

Gate’s got a 500 XP cost for summons - arguably that’s not enough.

Hurkyl

2021-09-22, 11:07 PM

Elan has terrible attributes as well - his low Int robs him of skill points and I don't think he's ever even bothered to use bardic knowledge,
It's also worth remembering that Elan conveys far less than he understands; strip #30 gives a great example of how it works.

hamishspence

2021-09-22, 11:18 PM

I think we’re confusing a “particular being” vs a “unique being”.

Tom, the ancient black dragon with 15 cleric levels, who always brings his wand of resurrection with him, is a particular being, but not a unique being.

The Tarrasque is unique.

IMO "A particular being" and "A unique being" are the same thing.

If a PC has the extraplanar subtype, and another creature finds out that they exist, they can Gate the PC themselves in - like

"I want to Gate in the neraphim Aahz"

but because they are gating in them specifically, then they're uncontrolled., and don't have to come if they don't want to. This ensures that extraplanar PCs don't have to worry about their enemies finding their names out, and gating them away from what they are doing.

Controlled creatures can only be gated in "as a kind of creature" rather than "as specific individuals".

And I'm certain your DM will let you summon as many as you like.

The first hurdle you'll have to overcome is to get this being to agree to help. Easy in a theoretical vs. challenge. Almost impossible in a campaign. The solar has no reason to do what you want and if you have something to trade, chances are real good you don't have two, so this is a once in a lifetime summon.

A controlled Gated creature must fight a single battle, for you, for free, if you demand that and only that.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.

If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service.

Dion

2021-09-22, 11:54 PM

IMO "A particular being" and "A unique being" are the same thing.

Maybe. It’s honestly hard to tell from the spell description.

Either way, suppose you’re 17th level and you summon something that’s 34HD..

There’s no rule that says Summoned creatures have to be happy about the task they are assigned.

And that’s worth remembering, because the summoned creature is an actual sentient being of considerable power, with its own will and it’s own personal agenda, and it doesn’t get mind wiped or anythjng after the summons

If it doesnt appreciate what it’s been asked to do, the summoner has created a very powerful enemy.

Anyhow, if the question can V kick Roy’s butt, the answer wr is yes, V can kick Roy’s butt.

TooSoon

2021-09-23, 12:57 AM

Maybe. It’s honestly hard to tell from the spell description.

Either way, suppose you’re 17th level and you summon something that’s 34HD..

There’s no rule that says Summoned creatures have to be happy about the task they are assigned.

And that’s worth remembering, because the summoned creature is an actual sentient being of considerable power, with its own will and it’s own personal agenda, and it doesn’t get mind wiped or anythjng after the summons

If it doesnt appreciate what it’s been asked to do, the summoner has created a very powerful enemy.

Anyhow, if the question can V kick Roy’s butt, the answer wr is yes, V can kick Roy’s butt.

I think the wider point is that everyone on the order, except Durkon, could have their functions easily replaced by another arcane (or non-arcane) caster like a wizrd or druid. The only reason the current team members are relevant is because this is a story, and the story demands they are. 4 more V's on the team would be able to do everything Roy, Hayley, Elan and Belkar do, but better, and a lot more on top of that.

Roy is a meat-shield. Another V on the team could just summon/dominate/illusion-up better meat shields. Belkar, ostensibly, can find things, have a nifty animal companion, and be a 2nd-ary fighter; again, a caster can use magic to do all those things, and a lot more besides. The same applies to Elan, and (to a slightly lesser extent) Hayley.

The team needs Roy the way we need doorstops. You need one sometimes I guess, but a brick would do the same thing, and the person providing the bricks can do 20 other things better anyway than Roy as well.

hungrycrow

2021-09-23, 01:20 AM

I think the wider point is that everyone on the order, except Durkon, could have their functions easily replaced by another arcane (or non-arcane) caster like a wizrd or druid. The only reason the current team members are relevant is because this is a story, and the story demands they are. 4 more V's on the team would be able to do everything Roy, Hayley, Elan and Belkar do, but better, and a lot more on top of that.

Roy is a meat-shield. Another V on the team could just summon/dominate/illusion-up better meat shields. Belkar, ostensibly, can find things, have a nifty animal companion, and be a 2nd-ary fighter; again, a caster can use magic to do all those things, and a lot more besides. The same applies to Elan, and (to a slightly lesser extent) Hayley.

The team needs Roy the way we need doorstops. You need one sometimes I guess, but a brick would do the same thing, and the person providing the bricks can do 20 other things better anyway than Roy as well.

Well, 4 theoretically well-played wizards could replace the team. V has gotten smarter but they still don't optimize to the extent a batman wizard does.

brian 333

2021-09-23, 01:24 AM

I think the wider point is that everyone on the order, except Durkon, could have their functions easily replaced by another arcane (or non-arcane) caster like a wizrd or druid. The only reason the current team members are relevant is because this is a story, and the story demands they are. 4 more V's on the team would be able to do everything Roy, Hayley, Elan and Belkar do, but better, and a lot more on top of that.

Roy is a meat-shield. Another V on the team could just summon/dominate/illusion-up better meat shields. Belkar, ostensibly, can find things, have a nifty animal companion, and be a 2nd-ary fighter; again, a caster can use magic to do all those things, and a lot more besides. The same applies to Elan, and (to a slightly lesser extent) Hayley.

The team needs Roy the way we need doorstops. You need one sometimes I guess, but a brick would do the same thing, and the person providing the bricks can do 20 other things better anyway than Roy as well.

You use up a crapload of spells doing this and you get the benefit for a number of rounds or turns.

Roy can't be banished. Belkar can't be dispelled. Haley can't be ignored while you kill the summoner.

The theory looks good, but after three encounters your wizards have to rest. What's the enemy doing in all that time? Patiently waiting for your return? Or did he learn from your previous attempts and is making things harder? Or grabbing the loot and running?

Playtest it. I have. The theory looks good, but any DM worth his dice bag will cure you of that delusion rather quickly.

TooSoon

2021-09-23, 01:40 AM

You use up a crapload of spells doing this and you get the benefit for a number of rounds or turns.

Roy can't be banished. Belkar can't be dispelled. Haley can't be ignored while you kill the summoner.

The theory looks good, but after three encounters your wizards have to rest. What's the enemy doing in all that time? Patiently waiting for your return? Or did he learn from your previous attempts and is making things harder? Or grabbing the loot and running?

Playtest it. I have. The theory looks good, but any DM worth his dice bag will cure you of that delusion rather quickly.

So basically your wizards can't do everything if the side you are fighting also has casters. This is in no way a rebuttal to my point. If the opponent you are fighting is a team of non-casters like Roy and Hayley and Elan and Belkar then the caster team goes to town on them. The only shortcoming is if you fight a team with Vs and Durkons, in which case more Vs and Durkon's are still better placed to fight this team of casters (e.g. a druid with the natural spell-feat wading into attack, another caster with good defences, etc). Would Elan, Roy, Hayley and Belkar even survive ordinary broken spells from run of the mill casters like Cloudkill, Black Tentacles, Horrid Wilting (from a distance, coupled with teleport), Irresistible Dance (utilized by an archmagi with arcane reach) or Maze? Never mind Gate and the like.

elros

2021-09-23, 02:58 AM

So basically your wizards can't do everything if the side you are fighting also has casters. This is in no way a rebuttal to my point. If the opponent you are fighting is a team of non-casters like Roy and Hayley and Elan and Belkar then the caster team goes to town on them. The only shortcoming is if you fight a team with Vs and Durkons, in which case more Vs and Durkon's are still better placed to fight this team of casters (e.g. a druid with the natural spell-feat wading into attack, another caster with good defences, etc). Would Elan, Roy, Hayley and Belkar even survive ordinary broken spells from run of the mill casters like Cloudkill, Black Tentacles, Horrid Wilting (from a distance, coupled with teleport), Irresistible Dance (utilized by an archmagi with arcane reach) or Maze? Never mind Gate and the like.
The rules of D&D 3.5 allow full casters to dominate at higher levels, and wizards with the right spells can overcome any situation. There is a reason the Giant has limited the full casters: V banned conjuring and cannot summon, and is also restricted by the soul debt to IIFC, Minrah is lower level, and Durkon never has the right spells prepared. It is easy to imagine a story where a few casters dominate everything around them.
And Roy has spent the entire comic trying to prove that fighters are not useless. Given the limitations of his class, he is effective in his role, especially with his weapon of legacy. And I am not sure, but I think Roy has been knocked out more than anyone else in the party, consistent with his role as meat-shield.
And that limitation is exactly why I like Roy the character so much: he does his best to be a leader, and that means trying to get each member of the party to be as effective as they can be. And as the Deva said when he was judging him, the fact that he is trying is important.
I also admit I am biased because I loved playing the “fighter with a six pack of potions.”

brian 333

2021-09-23, 03:21 AM

So basically your wizards can't do everything if the side you are fighting also has casters. This is in no way a rebuttal to my point. If the opponent you are fighting is a team of non-casters like Roy and Hayley and Elan and Belkar then the caster team goes to town on them. The only shortcoming is if you fight a team with Vs and Durkons, in which case more Vs and Durkon's are still better placed to fight this team of casters (e.g. a druid with the natural spell-feat wading into attack, another caster with good defences, etc). Would Elan, Roy, Hayley and Belkar even survive ordinary broken spells from run of the mill casters like Cloudkill, Black Tentacles, Horrid Wilting (from a distance, coupled with teleport), Irresistible Dance (utilized by an archmagi with arcane reach) or Maze? Never mind Gate and the like.

Great spells. You'll never get to cast them with a ranger going full melee on your wizard. Two, three rounds of failed spells and dead caster.

I imported a halfling ranger built as a mage-killer into NwN and was killing player wizards twice his level. The only time he was vulnerable was when I was AFK.

But the character concept was born as Evrin Strongarm in 1st ed around 1982 or so. Rangers make awesome mage-killers, and got better at it with each edition. Rogues do a good job too. And even if they can't kill the mage for some reason, a grappled mage isn't casting anything.

Do me a favor: make your best solo mage, figure out all his best tricks, then make a character of any class and playtest ways to beat your unbeatable wizard. You will be surprised.

TooSoon

2021-09-23, 03:45 AM

Great spells. You'll never get to cast them with a ranger going full melee on your wizard. Two, three rounds of failed spells and dead caster.

I imported a halfling ranger built as a mage-killer into NwN and was killing player wizards twice his level. The only time he was vulnerable was when I was AFK.

But the character concept was born as Evrin Strongarm in 1st ed around 1982 or so. Rangers make awesome mage-killers, and got better at it with each edition. Rogues do a good job too. And even if they can't kill the mage for some reason, a grappled mage isn't casting anything.

Do me a favor: make your best solo mage, figure out all his best tricks, then make a character of any class and playtest ways to beat your unbeatable wizard. You will be surprised.

You couldn't be more wrong.
- Horrid Wilting can be cast from 1080 feet away by a level 17 mage. Your fighter will be dead long before they get into range of the Wizard, even if the Wizard stands still (never mind that the wizard can fly, teleport, and cast other spells to protect themselves from you harming them, and probably has buffs ready).
- Don't think the Wizard is prepped enough? Maze can be cast from 65 feet away by a level 17 caster, and offers no saving throw whatever. The Wizard then has ample time to prepare with buffs and summons that will curbstomp your ranger/fighter when they get out of the Maze, or the spell expires 10 minutes later more likely).
- Irresistible dance combined with arcane reach can be cast from 30-90 feet away, and offers no saving throw. After it hits you, you're basically defenceless.
- Black tentacles is basically inescapable for most meatshields, and can be cast multiple times if someone does escape.

Those are just a handful of average spells, nowhere near the level of Gate, that would render your meat head useless. Heck, you're talking this fight going 3-4 rounds... even a run of the mill idiot blaster mage who just exchanges damage with you stands a strong chance of finishing you off in 2-3 rounds tops if they select the right spells. Do you have any idea how much damage the right blasting spells do? We had a thread where we were discussing ways V could, in theory, finish off Xykon in a single round.

Your whole scenario seems to only work if the melee fighter starts the fight standing right next to the (unbuffed) caster, in a tightly confined space like a dungeon, where they can't move around to create distance, and can't cast defensively because you have a cribbed version of spell splice.

Ionathus

2021-09-23, 11:07 AM

brian 333

2021-09-23, 12:03 PM

You couldn't be more wrong.
- Horrid Wilting can be cast from 1080 feet away by a level 17 mage. Your fighter will be dead long before they get into range of the Wizard, even if the Wizard stands still (never mind that the wizard can fly, teleport, and cast other spells to protect themselves from you harming them, and probably has buffs ready).
- Don't think the Wizard is prepped enough? Maze can be cast from 65 feet away by a level 17 caster, and offers no saving throw whatever. The Wizard then has ample time to prepare with buffs and summons that will curbstomp your ranger/fighter when they get out of the Maze, or the spell expires 10 minutes later more likely).
- Irresistible dance combined with arcane reach can be cast from 30-90 feet away, and offers no saving throw. After it hits you, you're basically defenceless.
- Black tentacles is basically inescapable for most meatshields, and can be cast multiple times if someone does escape.

Those are just a handful of average spells, nowhere near the level of Gate, that would render your meat head useless. Heck, you're talking this fight going 3-4 rounds... even a run of the mill idiot blaster mage who just exchanges damage with you stands a strong chance of finishing you off in 2-3 rounds tops if they select the right spells. Do you have any idea how much damage the right blasting spells do? We had a thread where we were discussing ways V could, in theory, finish off Xykon in a single round.

Your whole scenario seems to only work if the melee fighter starts the fight standing right next to the (unbuffed) caster, in a tightly confined space like a dungeon, where they can't move around to create distance, and can't cast defensively because you have a cribbed version of spell splice.

And you still have not playtested this. The fact that a wizard can cast a spell that kills a fighter is no surprise, and yet you reject the premise that a fighter can smack a wizard around with a pointy stick. Whose scenario is more likely in a campaign, and not a vs. challenge in an empty gladiatorial arena?

Your mage is going to be out of spells long before she gets anywhere near the boss in a dungeon crawl. And I'm sure those low level encounters are just going to stand where they are, waiting for her to get a good 8 hours, plus spending the next 8 hours studying spells so she can then go back and do another hour and a half of fighting before she needs another 16 hours.

While the creatures in the dungeon stand there waiting.

The MunchKING

2021-09-23, 12:15 PM

plus spending the next 8 hours studying spells so she can then go back

This isn't AD&D. a Wizard only needs 1 hour to rememorize spells (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard).

Dion

2021-09-23, 12:24 PM

I like the party combo of fighter / cleric / thief / mage. I think it’s fun to play.

I imagine it’s possible to play with a mage / cleric / mage / mage combo, but I can’t see it being as much fun.

So, for me, mage / cleric / mage / mage can’t do everything that fighter / cleric / mage / thief can do.

hamishspence

2021-09-23, 12:30 PM

This isn't AD&D. a Wizard only needs 1 hour to rememorize spells (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard).

They also need 8 hours of "restful calm", but that's already been mentioned.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#preparingWizardSpells

Rest
To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions
If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.

Preparation Environment
To prepare any spell, a wizard must have enough peace, quiet, and comfort to allow for proper concentration. The wizard’s surroundings need not be luxurious, but they must be free from overt distractions. Exposure to inclement weather prevents the necessary concentration, as does any injury or failed saving throw the character might experience while studying. Wizards also must have access to their spellbooks to study from and sufficient light to read them by. There is one major exception: A wizard can prepare a read magic spell even without a spellbook.

Spell Preparation Time
After resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If she wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of her daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state.

Spell Selection and Preparation
Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, she chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells.

When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells.

Dion

2021-09-23, 12:34 PM

Perhaps you have a point, but if I could just have a second to explain these perfect calculations about my Spherical Paladin in a Vacuum...

A spherical paladin? Absurd!

Where would the stick go?

hungrycrow

2021-09-23, 01:00 PM

So you're saying full-casters are supreme and untouchable and can do everything better than non-casters, as long as they get to face every single battle on their terms? No dungeons, no going multiple fights between resting, no ambushes or surprise rounds, no resource expenditure, full-nova allowed at every encounter?

Perhaps you have a point, but if I could just have a second to explain these perfect calculations about my Spherical Paladin in a Vacuum...

Wizards aren't exactly untouchable, but they have the most powerful and most varied offensive, defensive, and utility abilities. Resource allocation is a problem, but unfortunately less than you'd think, because the wizard is getting more resources every time they level. Is the DM making more encounters per day as the wizard levels? How many encounters is the DM throwing against a 17th level wizard with like 40 spells? How about a team of wizards with 150+ spells?

Ambushes are a problem for any character, but a wizard or cleric is going to have more options for either detecting the ambush or escaping. And really that applies to any type of encounter. Every character wants encounters to be fought on their terms, but casters have better options for making the encounter be fought on their terms.

I feel like this thread turned into another "wizards are op" rant. There really isn't a reason to compare Roy's usefulness to a high op wizard in OotSworld, where casters mostly don't bother with the paranoid shenanigans players do.

Ionathus

2021-09-23, 01:31 PM

A spherical paladin? Absurd!

Where would the stick go?

:biggrin:

Okay, a Cake-Pop Paladin in a Vacuum then.

RatElemental

2021-09-23, 01:58 PM

Okay, a Cake-Pop Paladin in a Vacuum then.

I'm pretty sure those only existed in the movie snack universe.

Dion

2021-09-23, 02:55 PM

I feel like this thread turned into another "wizards are op" rant.

Op? What is Op?

Like “original pachyderms” or something?

elros

2021-09-23, 03:00 PM

Op? What is Op?

Like “original pachyderms” or something?
Overpowered.

I think the Roy vs Xykon will give us insight into that battle. Roy is a magic sword and spell breaker feat has a chance, but only if he starts out with Xykon in melee range. As Xykon already proved, he can overcome things Roy cannot (e.g. gravity and falling damage).

The MunchKING

2021-09-23, 03:27 PM

They also need 8 hours of "restful calm", but that's already been mentioned.

Well yes, of course. But that's a 9 hour turn around time, not the 16 brian was saying.

I feel like this thread turned into another "wizards are op" rant. There really isn't a reason to compare Roy's usefulness to a high op wizard in OotSworld, where casters mostly don't bother with the paranoid shenanigans players do.

Originally it was Roy vs. V if V hadn't banned Conjuration. Then just anything summonable by level 17 wizard.

SO since the whole point of the argument is about conjuration, it would be remiss of me to point out that Teleportation being Conjuration is one of the main reason it's so good and the reason people say wizards can control where and when they fight.

hungrycrow

2021-09-23, 03:38 PM

Op? What is Op?

Like “original pachyderms” or something?

I made it a little confusing because I used OP for both overpowered as well as high op for high optimization.

TooSoon

2021-09-23, 04:25 PM

Wizards aren't exactly untouchable, but they have the most powerful and most varied offensive, defensive, and utility abilities. Resource allocation is a problem, but unfortunately less than you'd think, because the wizard is getting more resources every time they level. Is the DM making more encounters per day as the wizard levels? How many encounters is the DM throwing against a 17th level wizard with like 40 spells? How about a team of wizards with 150+ spells?

Ambushes are a problem for any character, but a wizard or cleric is going to have more options for either detecting the ambush or escaping. And really that applies to any type of encounter. Every character wants encounters to be fought on their terms, but casters have better options for making the encounter be fought on their terms.

I feel like this thread turned into another "wizards are op" rant. There really isn't a reason to compare Roy's usefulness to a high op wizard in OotSworld, where casters mostly don't bother with the paranoid shenanigans players do.

And that's the mic drop.

Casters aren't entirely untouchable, but they're close enough that it doesn't matter. The person who keeps saying "you haven't playtested it!" is talking to a forum full of people who have long known that casters like Wizards were broken in 3.5, which is why future editions nerfed them substantially. This isn't some controversial point where I need to provide scientific evidence. I'm sorry your gaming experiences didn't yield the same results, but it might be because you DM was being nice, or random variables like luck, or because you were playing at level 10 or something, before the casters become supreme. Once they're around level 17 like V there is really no argument they are far and away the most useful character types, and can basically replace everything the non-casters do and more. There just aren't going to be that many encounters, to the point a team of casters is out of juice, and if there is it's a terribly DM'd setting designed purely to kill the caster team. A team of say a specialist wizard with decent bonuses, a druid, a cleric, a sorcerer, a psion and a wizard archmagi will also have a huge number of spells/spell-like-abilities per day. They are not running out in a hurry, and have plenty of methods to protect themselves if they do (e.g. just cast a forcecage if you get tired slaying people). If V cast a Forcecage on the 4 non-caster members of the party, would they have anything to do except sit in it and feel stupid?

I laid out a bunch of relatively ordinary spells and said "ok, how does your ranger/fighter type beat them" to absolutely no answer.

hungrycrow

2021-09-23, 04:37 PM

There just aren't going to be that many encounters, to the point a team of casters is out of juice, and if there is it's a terribly DM'd setting designed purely to kill the caster team. A team of say a specialist wizard with decent bonuses, a druid, a cleric, a sorcerer, a psion and a wizard archmagi will also have a huge number of spells/spell-like-abilities per day. They are not running out in a hurry, and have plenty of methods to protect themselves if they do (e.g. just cast a forcecage if you get tired slaying people).

I'd also point out here, a dungeon with enough encounters to drain an all-caster party will also definitely drain the classic wizard-cleric-fighter-rogue party. And then they'd either retreat or die too, because the fighter and rogue probably can't handle this killer dungeon by themselves.

Liquor Box

2021-09-23, 04:46 PM

Dion

2021-09-23, 05:15 PM

Is this argument about high level caster vs high level fighter?

No, this argument is that the best thing for the Order to do is get rid of Roy, Elan, Belkar, and Haley, and replace them all with combat optimized 17th level wizards.

The party should be Durkon, V, W, X, Y, and Z.

Imagine how badass that would be!

For example, just imagine how well they would have done in this fight with the eye tyrant! The fight would have been over in two rounds.

Also, probably get rid of V too, because V is poorly optimized

Mechalich

2021-09-23, 05:16 PM

Is this argument about high level caster vs high level fighter?

Or is it about V, with the spells V has and the playstyle V has vs Roy with the abilities Roy has and the playstyle he has?

Because the first is just theorycrafting and has nothing to do with the Order, or with how effective Roy is in the comic.

It's more about the ability of Roy - a high-level fighter - to contribute to a storyline which contains ultimate enemies he will struggle to significantly contribute to defeating. It's worth noting that the Order regularly struggles to defeat challenges arguably well below their effective level - such as the gang of Frost Giants they fought most recently - due to a combination of bad builds, insufficient WBL, and role-playing based inefficiency (ex. Durkon burning essentially all his 4th level spell slots every day on a pile of Sendings).

It's worth recalling that, back around comic #900, Roy, Elan, Belkar, and Haley all struggled significantly to defeat a single Summon Monster IX elemental that Redcloak threw at them. That is direct in-comic evidence of their inability to do much to contribute in a final fight between the Order and Redcloak+Xykon. In all honesty, Redcloak could possibly defeat the entire Order, by himself, with a single casting of Gate. I mean, does anyone really see the Order taking down a Pit Fiend or Balor without a lot of luck?

Thinking about Redcloak, this situation applies to the villain's side as well, since Redcloak, as a cleric with access to all spells on the cleric list, is arguably more dangerous than Xykon because despite Xykon's higher level, his spell list (which we mostly know) is awful.

Ultimately the overriding issue is that high-level 3.5 is a system where build is all. A properly built Tier I is functionally a deity (and I'm not talking about theorycrafted characters, just a straight wizard or cleric with appropriate gear, feats, and spells), while a Tier 4 or lower character will struggle immensely to handle level appropriate challenges unless they are built to one of a very small number of niche methods. It's not anybody's fault, and it's not like the author is unaware of the issue, but it is a problem the comic cannot easily escape.

Liquor Box

2021-09-23, 05:29 PM

It's more about the ability of Roy - a high-level fighter - to contribute to a storyline which contains ultimate enemies he will struggle to significantly contribute to defeating. It's worth noting that the Order regularly struggles to defeat challenges arguably well below their effective level - such as the gang of Frost Giants they fought most recently - due to a combination of bad builds, insufficient WBL, and role-playing based inefficiency (ex. Durkon burning essentially all his 4th level spell slots every day on a pile of Sendings).

It's worth recalling that, back around comic #900, Roy, Elan, Belkar, and Haley all struggled significantly to defeat a single Summon Monster IX elemental that Redcloak threw at them. That is direct in-comic evidence of their inability to do much to contribute in a final fight between the Order and Redcloak+Xykon. In all honesty, Redcloak could possibly defeat the entire Order, by himself, with a single casting of Gate. I mean, does anyone really see the Order taking down a Pit Fiend or Balor without a lot of luck?

Thinking about Redcloak, this situation applies to the villain's side as well, since Redcloak, as a cleric with access to all spells on the cleric list, is arguably more dangerous than Xykon because despite Xykon's higher level, his spell list (which we mostly know) is awful.

Ultimately the overriding issue is that high-level 3.5 is a system where build is all. A properly built Tier I is functionally a deity (and I'm not talking about theorycrafted characters, just a straight wizard or cleric with appropriate gear, feats, and spells), while a Tier 4 or lower character will struggle immensely to handle level appropriate challenges unless they are built to one of a very small number of niche methods. It's not anybody's fault, and it's not like the author is unaware of the issue, but it is a problem the comic cannot easily escape.

So are we judging Roy:
- against his peers (others in the party)
- against other character who are available in the OotS world (who are unlikely to be optimised)
- or against theoretical characters who would create if character creation were possible.

It seems you are doing the last. And if so, you are probably right - a optimally built character probably is much better than Roy. But I don't think that's a fair comparison, because (like with the real world) the OotS world doesn't have a host of optimised characters running around.

TooSoon

2021-09-23, 06:29 PM

Is this argument about high level caster vs high level fighter?

Or is it about V, with the spells V has and the playstyle V has vs Roy with the abilities Roy has and the playstyle he has?

Because the first is just theorycrafting and has nothing to do with the Order, or with how effective Roy is in the comic.

The thread can make more than 1 point at a time. A number of these points can all be true, and as everyone has said: the author is aware of it, has discussed it, and 95% of people on here are aware of it. 3.5 was delightfully broken, and the rules were substantially changed to nerf many things in future additions to try and make the game more balanced. Take the Tarrasque; nigh unbeatable in most situations in 3.5, but nerfed to the point of comedy in later editions.

Wizards/caster-types are much the same in 3.5. They're not technically unbeatable, but with any sort of proper design they are close enough practically speaking. Even unoptimized, Roy is a joke compared to V or Durkon, and the author is aware of it and has said so. There is a reason so many plot devices keep getting used to try and obscure this reality (e.g. Durkon keeps getting killed so he levels down, Durkon/V are off the team for a while, V is turned into a lizard, V is off panel yet again, V is taken out before he can render the team useless, V's build doesn't include the very best school of magic so he can't just solve all their problems easily, etc). Take a look at the characters with the least on panel appearances. It's no surprise it's the casters. Them being around breaks the team, as they make the other 4 near useless at times. The author sometimes jokes about this, like when Hayley and Elan are discussing their elaborate plan to fight Tarquin's flying riders... then V just takes them all out in 1 shot. "Right, Wizard" mutters Hayley.

brian 333

2021-09-23, 06:45 PM

And that's the mic drop.

Casters aren't entirely untouchable, but they're close enough that it doesn't matter. The person who keeps saying "you haven't playtested it!" is talking to a forum full of people who have long known that casters like Wizards were broken in 3.5, which is why future editions nerfed them substantially. This isn't some controversial point where I need to provide scientific evidence. I'm sorry your gaming experiences didn't yield the same results, but it might be because you DM was being nice, or random variables like luck, or because you were playing at level 10 or something, before the casters become supreme. Once they're around level 17 like V there is really no argument they are far and away the most useful character types, and can basically replace everything the non-casters do and more. There just aren't going to be that many encounters, to the point a team of casters is out of juice, and if there is it's a terribly DM'd setting designed purely to kill the caster team. A team of say a specialist wizard with decent bonuses, a druid, a cleric, a sorcerer, a psion and a wizard archmagi will also have a huge number of spells/spell-like-abilities per day. They are not running out in a hurry, and have plenty of methods to protect themselves if they do (e.g. just cast a forcecage if you get tired slaying people). If V cast a Forcecage on the 4 non-caster members of the party, would they have anything to do except sit in it and feel stupid?

I laid out a bunch of relatively ordinary spells and said "ok, how does your ranger/fighter type beat them" to absolutely no answer.

A grossly inaccurate summary, there. I said exactly how I'd beat them: by never letting the wizard cast them. You rejected that as a scemario that favored the fighter, and countered with a scenario that favored the wizard.

But then I had already countered that before when describing an actual playtest. The team of rogues ran away and waited for the pre-buffed wizards' spell durations to expire. Then through sniping and sneak attacks, they decimated the wizards. We played that one about a dozen times. The wizards didn't always lose, but they lost more than the rogues.

The thing is, while wizards have big, flashy spells, there are time and quantity issues. Spell Durations expire, Spell Slots get used up, and dangit if there aren't one or two spells that looked useful, but you never got the chance to use them. Your wizard has to waste spells getting past the gate guards, and every other encounter to get to the boss, and you just don't have enough spell slots.

A fighter never uses up his allotment of 'smack with pointy stick' attacks. He can get the party past the gate guards, and with a little wizardly help all the way to the boss, where the wizard can use her high level spells to take down the boss, instead of wasting them just getting there.

The wizard was never OP. The wizard was always a glass cannon: powerful but fragile.

Think of it in terms of infantry versus artillery. Your artillery can make hash of the enemy infantry, but without infantry support, even a devastated enemy infantry unit can silence your artillery.

So, don't bother playtesting, because you can't be wrong. If you ever find yourself at a con playing a competitive scenario against a ranger named Everin Strongarm, move to a different table, because your much valued illusions will be challenged.

JNAProductions

2021-09-23, 07:01 PM

A grossly inaccurate summary, there. I said exactly how I'd beat them: by never letting the wizard cast them. You rejected that as a scenario that favored the fighter, and countered with a scenario that favored the wizard.

But then I had already countered that before when describing an actual playtest. The team of rogues ran away and waited for the pre-buffed wizards' spell durations to expire. Then through sniping and sneak attacks, they decimated the wizards. We played that one about a dozen times. The wizards didn't always lose, but they lost more than the rogues.

How do they run away? Wizards have faster speed (through Flight and whatnot) and Divinations to keep them tracked.

The thing is, while wizards have big, flashy spells, there are time and quantity issues. Spell Durations expire, Spell Slots get used up, and dangit if there aren't one or two spells that looked useful, but you never got the chance to use them. Your wizard has to waste spells getting past the gate guards, and every other encounter to get to the boss, and you just don't have enough spell slots.

And Rogues have limited HP, plus limited use of anything outside skills and stabs, unless using items that have no limited usages. Most do.

A fighter never uses up his allotment of 'smack with pointy stick' attacks. He can get the party past the gate guards, and with a little wizardly help all the way to the boss, where the wizard can use her high level spells to take down the boss, instead of wasting them just getting there.

The wizard was never OP. The wizard was always a glass cannon: powerful but fragile.The Fighter can run out of HP, though. And that will (at higher levels, and high-op play) happen a long time before a Wizard runs out of spells.

Also, when a Wizard can Abrupt Jaunt, and has 100% fortification (from the Heart spells), and can Scry to see what the threats are in advance to know where and when to be, and can Teleport past a lot of the threats a Fighter would have to fight... I dunno if "glass" is the right word. Cannon, sure.

Think of it in terms of infantry versus artillery. Your artillery can make hash of the enemy infantry, but without infantry support, even a devastated enemy infantry unit can silence your artillery.

So, don't bother playtesting, because you can't be wrong. If you ever find yourself at a con playing a competitive scenario against a ranger named Everin Strongarm, move to a different table, because your much valued illusions will be challenged.Your version of 3.5 sounds like a lot of fun. It does not, though, sound like the rules as written, when played to a high degree of optimization.

I don't doubt that, in a lot of practical play, Wizards can run out of spells, or have the wrong spells, and a big burly meatshield is useful to have around.
But equally, parts of that can be "Well, Bob wants to play a Fighter-so I won't bind some Devils to be meatshields, so he can have his fun." And other parts can be "It'd be really boring to just Scry & Die every encounter, and I don't actually WANT to use all these divinations all the time. It'd be practical, sure, but boring."

Those are entirely metagame concerns.

On another track, let me propose a couple of scenarios for you. Tell me how you'd handle the challenges as a group of Fighters, and as a group of Wizards. (You can sub in other martials for Fighters, and other casters for Wizards, if you like. But subbing in, for example, a Duskblade for a Fighter would raise some eyebrows in a way a Barbarian wouldn't.)

The BBEG has just launched their flying castle, and is preparing their Ritual Of Ultimate DoomTM that will end the world as we know it.

You have...

1) One month...
2) One week...
3) One day...

To stop them!
The long-lost Orb Of Great PowerTM is required to complete the ritual to bring prosperity back to the world.

There is a sage in the northern wastes, past the orcish badlands and the frozen mountains, who can lead you to it.

Once the sage is reached, they reveal to you that the Orb is located deep within the earth itself, slumbering with the Tarrasque.
Princess Kihdnahpd was kidnapped! Efreeti brigands stole her, and she's now somewhere in the City of Brass, for what reason, you know not. You also don't know, without knowledge checks, what group of efreeti were the ones to steal her.

TooSoon

2021-09-23, 07:12 PM

A grossly inaccurate summary, there. I said exactly how I'd beat them: by never letting the wizard cast them. You rejected that as a scemario that favored the fighter, and countered with a scenario that favored the wizard.

But then I had already countered that before when describing an actual playtest. The team of rogues ran away and waited for the pre-buffed wizards' spell durations to expire. Then through sniping and sneak attacks, they decimated the wizards. We played that one about a dozen times. The wizards didn't always lose, but they lost more than the rogues.

The thing is, while wizards have big, flashy spells, there are time and quantity issues. Spell Durations expire, Spell Slots get used up, and dangit if there aren't one or two spells that looked useful, but you never got the chance to use them. Your wizard has to waste spells getting past the gate guards, and every other encounter to get to the boss, and you just don't have enough spell slots.

A fighter never uses up his allotment of 'smack with pointy stick' attacks. He can get the party past the gate guards, and with a little wizardly help all the way to the boss, where the wizard can use her high level spells to take down the boss, instead of wasting them just getting there.

The wizard was never OP. The wizard was always a glass cannon: powerful but fragile.

Think of it in terms of infantry versus artillery. Your artillery can make hash of the enemy infantry, but without infantry support, even a devastated enemy infantry unit can silence your artillery.

So, don't bother playtesting, because you can't be wrong. If you ever find yourself at a con playing a competitive scenario against a ranger named Everin Strongarm, move to a different table, because your much valued illusions will be challenged.

As the guy above me just highlighted, your version of D&D sounds fun. It does not resemble the actual rules of 3.5 as they exist. How will you stop the Wizard casting their spells when they are:
1) Faster than you (with fly, teleport, etc)
2) Able to anticipate you with precognition magic
3) Able to cast spells that will end you long before they run out of spells.
4) Able to cast defensively

Like, what's the counter? You and the Wizard are in a face off from say 30 feet away. The Wizard casts any of the spells I mentioned. How do you avoid being basically one shot? The answer is you don't. The Wizard will also be able to use that turn to create even more distance if needs be. The weirdest thing about the one scenario you suggested, involving Rogues running off to hide, is that it is the LEAST smart strategy. You're going to give the wizard MORE prep? That's certain death for you if the wizard is vaguely competent. It's moot though because the idea of you being able to actually "escape" someone with the powers of a wizard is positively cute. As I noted, a bunch of these standard spells can be cast from large distances, including over 1000 feet away. Your rogue will be dead long before they escape.

Like, let's say V casts something as basic as resilient sphere or forcecage on the other 4 party members not named Durkon. Can they do anything whatever in response?

Mechalich

2021-09-23, 08:14 PM

Wizards/caster-types are much the same in 3.5. They're not technically unbeatable, but with any sort of proper design they are close enough practically speaking. Even unoptimized, Roy is a joke compared to V or Durkon, and the author is aware of it and has said so. There is a reason so many plot devices keep getting used to try and obscure this reality (e.g. Durkon keeps getting killed so he levels down, Durkon/V are off the team for a while, V is turned into a lizard, V is off panel yet again, V is taken out before he can render the team useless, V's build doesn't include the very best school of magic so he can't just solve all their problems easily, etc). Take a look at the characters with the least on panel appearances. It's no surprise it's the casters. Them being around breaks the team, as they make the other 4 near useless at times. The author sometimes jokes about this, like when Hayley and Elan are discussing their elaborate plan to fight Tarquin's flying riders... then V just takes them all out in 1 shot. "Right, Wizard" mutters Hayley.

Right, and this disparity has now become a problem for the comic because it is approaching the final climax because Redcloak (not Xykon, who is hobbled to a beatable level by his terrible spells known list) is actually a functional Tier I caster who has unleashed at least some solid caster tricks in the past like minionomancy (his elementals thing is a long-running joke of its own, but he's also created and used undead extensively), mass buffing, and escape spells (he cast Word of Recall at least once and saved himself in the process).

A climactic battle between the Order and Xykon can only go off if Redcloak isn't actively supporting Xykon. There are various ways he might be neutralized, whether Durkon actually talks him into standing aside, the MitD intervenes, or something else, but Redcloak is simply too powerful a piece at present for the heroes to overcome.

JNAProductions

2021-09-23, 08:15 PM

Right, and this disparity has now become a problem for the comic because it is approaching the final climax because Redcloak (not Xykon, who is hobbled to a beatable level by his terrible spells known list) is actually a functional Tier I caster who has unleashed at least some solid caster tricks in the past like minionomancy (his elementals thing is a long-running joke of its own, but he's also created and used undead extensively), mass buffing, and escape spells (he cast Word of Recall at least once and saved himself in the process).

A climactic battle between the Order and Xykon can only go off if Redcloak isn't actively supporting Xykon. There are various ways he might be neutralized, whether Durkon actually talks him into standing aside, the MitD intervenes, or something else, but Redcloak is simply too powerful a piece at present for the heroes to overcome.

To be noted, the goal is now “Redcloak working WITH the Order,” not killing him.

TooSoon

2021-09-23, 08:25 PM

Right, and this disparity has now become a problem for the comic because it is approaching the final climax because Redcloak (not Xykon, who is hobbled to a beatable level by his terrible spells known list) is actually a functional Tier I caster who has unleashed at least some solid caster tricks in the past like minionomancy (his elementals thing is a long-running joke of its own, but he's also created and used undead extensively), mass buffing, and escape spells (he cast Word of Recall at least once and saved himself in the process).

A climactic battle between the Order and Xykon can only go off if Redcloak isn't actively supporting Xykon. There are various ways he might be neutralized, whether Durkon actually talks him into standing aside, the MitD intervenes, or something else, but Redcloak is simply too powerful a piece at present for the heroes to overcome.

V, who is all but certainly level 17+, is more powerful than Redcloak right now probably. This idea the order can't beat Redcloak is silly, because they have someone already more powerful than him.

hungrycrow

2021-09-23, 08:29 PM

V, who is all but certainly level 17+, is more powerful than Redcloak right now probably. This idea the order can't beat Redcloak is silly, because they have someone already more powerful than him.

I'm not sure V is level 17 yet, we haven't seen them cast ninths. And even with ninths I think it would be pretty even.

The real problem is defeating him a way that he doesn't die and doesn't word of recall away.

TooSoon

2021-09-23, 08:35 PM

I'm not sure V is level 17 yet, we haven't seen them cast ninths. And even with ninths I think it would be pretty even.

The real problem is defeating him a way that he doesn't die and doesn't word of recall away.

It has been so long since V proved they were (at least) level 16, that it would be more surprising if they weren't level 17+ now, given the time that has passed, the amount of experience seemingly accrued, etc. V actually basically did prove it when they cast telepathic bond, but not enough for the right people to agree on the class geekery forum, so we have to keep waiting for V to prove it to the necessary standard of proof... but in my mind there's no doubt V is already at that level.

We had a thread discussing ways V could, in theory, beat Xykon in 1 round. If V can one shot Xykon, they can do the same to RC. It won't happen, because story, but it's not even controversial to say V is stronger than Redcloak right now, bad optimization and all. The very thing that is supposed to help "even out" Clerics/Druids with casters a little bit is that they can also function as high end fighters, not just cast spells. Redcloak apparently sucks as a fighter though. V should stomp.

hungrycrow

2021-09-23, 08:39 PM

It has been so long since V proved they were (at least) level 16, that it would be more surprising if they weren't level 17+ now, given the time that has passed, the amount of experience seemingly accrued, etc. V actually basically did prove it when they cast telepathic bond, but not enough for the right people to agree on the class geekery forum, so we have to keep waiting for V to prove it to the necessary standard of proof... but in my mind there's no doubt V is already at that level.

We had a thread discussing ways V could, in theory, beat Xykon in 1 round. If V can one shot Xykon, they can do the same to RC. It won't happen, because story, but it's not even controversial to say V is stronger than Redcloak right now, bad optimization and all.

Redcloak can also one shot V with implosion. It's sort of rocket tag.

TooSoon

2021-09-23, 08:42 PM

Redcloak can also one shot V with implosion. It's sort of rocket tag.

V has counters to what redcloak will do, like counterspelling or dismissing his summons, what are Redcloak's counters to a face full of spells?

JNAProductions

2021-09-23, 08:42 PM

V has counters to what redcloak will do, what are Redcloak's counters?

Winning initiative?
Using his own Counterspell?
Summoning a couple big beefy boys to bop V?

TooSoon

2021-09-23, 08:44 PM

Winning initiative?
Using his own Counterspell?
Summoning a couple big beefy boys to bop V?

V can use quicken spells to cast 2 spells for every 1 of RCs, and he can counterspell or dismiss anything RC can dish out. He also has more spells.

JNAProductions

2021-09-23, 08:45 PM

V can use quicken spells to cast 2 spells for every 1 of RCs, and he can counterspell or dismiss anything RC can dish out. He also has more spells.

What if Redcloak has Quicken Spell too?
And why would you assume V has more spells?

TooSoon

2021-09-23, 08:47 PM

What if Redcloak has Quicken Spell too?
And why would you assume V has more spells?

Because bonuses aside RC has cleric spells, a bunch of which are for healing, and/or require him to get into touch range to pull off. Casters have better and more versatile attack spells. RC can't get propped an ability he hasn't shown (and it would have been pretty useful to have it by now, so I'd say the evidence to this point is he does not have it).

Peelee

2021-09-23, 08:48 PM

V actually basically did prove it when they cast telepathic bond, but not enough for the right people to agree on the class geekery forum

Point here, there is no "right" people. There is simply enough people. Curated threads like that run on consensus.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-23, 08:51 PM

To be noted, the goal is now “Redcloak working WITH the Order,” not killing him. Roy and Haley have the people skills and the smarts to negotiate with him.
Durkon gave it his best effort but his negotiation skills aren't as good.

V has no people skills to speak of. :smalltongue:

Elan has people skills, but is mentally deficient.

Belkar: people skills are not his forte, intelligence is average.

Minrah: striving to achieve Durkon-levels of people skills.

Blackwing: too much of a smart alec for people skills to enter into consideration
Mr Scruffy: problems with language, decent amounts of empathy
Bloodfeast Extreminator: Hungry, and likes to bite. People skills are not in the portfolio unless eating people is a people skill.

I think I've covered all of the bases on how the OoTS pursues success with that goal: set it up so that Roy and Haley engage Redcloak in discussion/negotiation ... it's their only hope.

Peelee

2021-09-23, 08:54 PM

Roy and Haley have the people skills and the smarts to negotiate with him; Durkon gave it his best effort but his negotiation skills aren't as good.
V has no people skills to speak of. :smalltongue:

I was gonna say V has Enhance Ability but then I went to check and remembered that they were all separated in 3.5. 5e combining 'em all into one was a great move.

TooSoon

2021-09-23, 08:54 PM

Point here, there is no "right" people. There is simply enough people. Curated threads like that run on consensus.

Actually during that discussion of whether V was level 17 you will remember that the thread keeper actually ignored all the consensus, put in an explanation that absolutely nobody had advocated, and then only removed it (with no comment) after lengthy criticism for them doing so. It's fine to say that there wasn't consensus, there probably wasn't, but what constitutes consensus and what the standards of proof are on that thread has not been consistently applied in my opinion, as I explained on there in detail.

It is reasonable for me to believe V is now level 17 is the point.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-23, 08:57 PM

I was gonna say V has Enhance Ability but then I went to check and remembered that they were all separated in 3.5. 5e combining 'em all into one was a great move. Concur, it decluttered the spell list a bit. :smallsmile:

Peelee

2021-09-23, 09:01 PM

Actually during that discussion of whether V was level 17 you will remember that the thread keeper actually ignored all the consensus, put in an explanation that absolutely nobody had advocated, and then only removed it (with no comment) after lengthy criticism for them doing so. It's fine to say that there wasn't consensus, there probably wasn't, but what constitutes consensus and what the standards of proof are on that threads has not been consistently applied.

It is reasonable for me to believe V is now level 17 is the point.

You may find this interesting, if you are not already aware. I have bolded the more relevant parts you may like to know.

Certain project threads are curated by member volunteers who take responsibility for maintaining the consensus of conclusions from discussion, often because they have made the opening post in the thread and thus are the only non-moderators that can edit it. These curators bear no special title, and have no official authority; they are not moderators, and cannot ban discussion of issues they consider settled. Their sole responsibility is to maintain lists of information as represents the threads community's conclusions. Specifically, the curator cannot prevent certain topics from being discussed, prevent any given poster from participating, or make any sort of executive decision on what is or is not included in the opening post of a curated topic. Disruptive or chronically off-topic posters can still be reported to the forum moderation as normal, of course.

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brian 333

2021-09-23, 10:11 PM

As the guy above me just highlighted, your version of D&D sounds fun. It does not resemble the actual rules of 3.5 as they exist. How will you stop the Wizard casting their spells when they are:
1) Faster than you (with fly, teleport, etc)
2) Able to anticipate you with precognition magic
3) Able to cast spells that will end you long before they run out of spells.
4) Able to cast defensively

Like, what's the counter? You and the Wizard are in a face off from say 30 feet away. The Wizard casts any of the spells I mentioned. How do you avoid being basically one shot? The answer is you don't. The Wizard will also be able to use that turn to create even more distance if needs be.

Like, let's say V casts something as basic as resilient sphere or forcecage on the other 4 party members not named Durkon. Can they do anything whatever in response?

My best hard counter is time. I wait 20 minutes for your wizard's spells to start timing out.

The wizard never sees my stealty character because magic does not detect things hiding, and when he can see her it will be after a surprise round sneak attack and a full attack.
(1d6+8d6=31, not counting any magical bonuses, followed by 1d6x3 for another 10.5 damage, again not counting magical bonuses x 3. That's 42 hp, and your guy's one spell best be low level or it's almost a guaranteed fizzle. Since a wizard level 17 has 17 to 68 hp, average 42, there's a very good chance he's now dead.)

And my rogue invested in a ring of non-detection, so use up those divinition slots, because my rogue is going back into hiding, where you'll never find her.

RAW covers a lot of ground, and too many of these uber-mage theories focus on the canon and ignore the glass. Mages are the most fragile of all the classes. (Sorcerers are by far less so, but are still not omnipotent.)

Your scenarios as presented are so vague as to defy analysis. Draw up those dungeons then run them a dozen times each with a variety of party members to see what works best. If you are ever near the Texas/Louisiana Gulf Coast, message me and I'll be happy to help.

Also, can V take a sneak-attack from Haley? Or a rage from Belkar? If Roy started smacking V around with Spellsplinter, could V do anything about it? Why must all scenarios favor the mage?

JNAProductions

2021-09-23, 10:30 PM

TooSoon

2021-09-23, 10:32 PM

The wizard never sees my stealty character because magic does not detect things hiding, and when he can see her it will be after a surprise round sneak attack and a full attack.
(1d6+8d6=31, not counting any magical bonuses, followed by 1d6x3 for another 10.5 damage, again not counting magical bonuses x 3. That's 42 hp, and your guy's one spell best be low level or it's almost a guaranteed fizzle. Since a wizard level 17 has 17 to 68 hp, average 42, there's a very good chance he's now dead.)

And my rogue invested in a ring of non-detection, so use up those divinition slots, because my rogue is going back into hiding, where you'll never find her.

RAW covers a lot of ground, and too many of these uber-mage theories focus on the canon and ignore the glass. Mages are the most fragile of all the classes. (Sorcerers are by far less so, but are still not omnipotent.)

Your scenarios as presented are so vague as to defy analysis. Draw up those dungeons then run them a dozen times each with a variety of party members to see what works best.

And can V take a sneak-attack from Haley? Or a rage from Belkar? If Roy started smacking V around with Spellsplinter, could V do anything about it? Why must all scenarios favor the mage?

So the problems with your scenario are many. Some of the most basic ones are that your scenario only works if the fight takes place under the following conditions:
1) Your character is already concealed in some hiding place before the fight even begins. This is so specific it can hardly be called a fight. You're really talking about whether you can assassinate someone, not beat them in a fight.
2) You need the Wizard/Caster to not be using any of the magic that, yes I'm sorry, can definitely still work to detect you. Foresight for example will work just fine. Celerity works fine to, at the very least, give them a way out. A contingency works fine. I could go on. So the idea you will simply hide and they will be helpless is not viable to begin with. The poster under me highlights various other location spells. Your plan to hide won't work.
3) You are also assuming the Wizard/caster needs to go get you themselves. The Wizard can just summon a bunch of horrendously deadly stuff to go find and kill you, while they chill safely inside a safe little cocoon of magical energy (ranging from resilient spheres to forcecages to prismatic spheres). With a forcecage's duration of 17+ hours a Wizard has plenty of protection. This is assuming they feel the need to do this.
4) Unless you are insta-killing the caster, they can activate any number of defence mechanisms like a cocoon of magical protection, or teleport away, or whatever, so as soon as you attack they're on to you and the surprise is gone.
5) You are also forgetting that by starting the fight in hiding you have given the caster time to buff, so the sneak attack damage you hope to do is now going to be sharply reduced by all the protections in place against it.
6) As the caster above highlights, the chances of them failing to scry you are abysmal.

In an actual fight, say you both start 30 feet away, you'd be even more toasted. Try to get away and hide; you die. Try to get close to attack, there's no time and you die. For the non-caster to win you basically need everything to go right in a super specific scenario, and even then it's probably not enough.

Roy has to be close enough to actually use the spell splice move on V. It's a close range move. If he's not that close V just puts them all in a forcecage. If V uses any of the precog magic available it doesn't even matter if Roy is close and uses spell splice either.

NB
I note you just edited your post to say you will "wait 20 mins for their spells to run out". {scrubbed}? The fight will be functionally over in maybe 1 round. You won't be able to get away, let alone wait 20 minutes when you turn to run then hide. The moment the fight begins you will be slammed with one of the spells I cited, and that's it. Irresistable dance with arcane reach. Boom. You're helpless and they smash spells into you. If you somehow survive rinse and repeat. Forcecage. Boom. You are trapped. Horrid Wilting. Black Tentacles. Maze. It's all over. Arcane reach imprisonment. Chain of Fate. The list goes on.

RatElemental

2021-09-23, 10:34 PM

The wizard never sees my stealty character because magic does not detect things hiding

Detect magic will sense their magic items. Dragonsight just straight up gives the wizard the ability to automatically sense the presence of anyone within 85 feet of them. Foresight will make them not flatfooted or surprised, period. Locate creature can find them if they've just run away. The list goes on, there's a whole scool of magic specifically for finding things.

your guy's one spell best be low level or it's almost a guaranteed fizzle.

Why is that? A 17th level wizard should be able to make a dc 24 concentration check to cast even 9th level spells defensively. Your attack happened on your turn, not while the wizard was casting.

And my rogue invested in a ring of non-detection, so use up those divinition slots, because my rogue is going back into hiding, where you'll never find her.

I can't find a ring of nondetection RAW, so I'll assume it just has a constant version of the spell, which can be overcome by a caster level check against a DC of 11+the nondetection caster's level. By default magic items are made with the minimum caster level unless specified otherwise, which in this case would be a DC of 17. The 17th level caster succeeds automatically.

JNAProductions

2021-09-23, 10:35 PM

Detect magic will sense their magic items. Dragonsight just straight up gives the wizard the ability to automatically sense the presence of anyone within 85 feet of them. Foresight will make them not flatfooted or surprised, period. Locate creature can find them if they've just run away. The list goes on, there's a whole scool of magic specifically for finding things.

Why is that? A 17th level wizard should be able to make a dc 24 concentration check to cast even 9th level spells defensively. Your attack happened on your turn, not while the wizard was casting.

I can't find a ring of nondetection RAW, so I'll assume it just has a constant version of the spell, which can be overcome by a caster level check against a DC of 11+the nondetection caster's level. By default magic items are made with the minimum caster level unless specified otherwise, which in this case would be a DC of 17. The 17th level caster succeeds automatically.

DC 16. You can get it at CL 5.

And do Caster Checks auto-fail on 1s? Or is that only saves and attacks?

RatElemental

2021-09-23, 10:53 PM

DC 16. You can get it at CL 5.

And do Caster Checks auto-fail on 1s? Or is that only saves and attacks?

They do not fail on a 1, no. Unless rolling 1 makes their overall result not enough to meet the DC that is.

The MunchKING

2021-09-23, 11:06 PM

But then I had already countered that before when describing an actual playtest. The team of rogues ran away and waited for the pre-buffed wizards' spell durations to expire.

Hmmmm... Without lots of ranks in Spellcraft, how would the Rogues know when the durations would expire?

V can use quicken spells to cast 2 spells for every 1 of RCs, and he can counterspell or dismiss anything RC can dish out. He also has more spells.

Banishment is 7, Dismissal is 5, Dispel Magic is 3.

Quicken is impossible on one of those, and prohibitively expensive for the other ones.

and when he can see her it will be after a surprise round sneak attack and a full attack.

You only get a move action in the surprise Round.

And my rogue invested in a ring of non-detection, so use up those divinition slots, because my rogue is going back into hiding, where you'll never find her.

Summoners have access to things with Scent or tremor sense.

Also, can V take a sneak-attack from Haley? Or a rage from Belkar? If Roy started smacking V around with Spellsplinter, could V do anything about it? Why must all scenarios favor the mage?

Because teleporting means if it doesn't favor them they can warp out. Or even better, not warp in.

Why is that? A 17th level wizard should be able to make a dc 24 concentration check to cast even 9th level spells defensively. Your attack happened on your turn, not while the wizard was casting.

Casting Defensively just means they don't get AoO, right?

I think he's saying it'll fizzle because you'll fail the concentration check for concentrating while taking damage.

Liquor Box

2021-09-23, 11:07 PM

The thread can make more than 1 point at a time. A number of these points can all be true, and as everyone has said: the author is aware of it, has discussed it, and 95% of people on here are aware of it. 3.5 was delightfully broken, and the rules were substantially changed to nerf many things in future additions to try and make the game more balanced. Take the Tarrasque; nigh unbeatable in most situations in 3.5, but nerfed to the point of comedy in later editions.

Wizards/caster-types are much the same in 3.5. They're not technically unbeatable, but with any sort of proper design they are close enough practically speaking. Even unoptimized, Roy is a joke compared to V or Durkon, and the author is aware of it and has said so. There is a reason so many plot devices keep getting used to try and obscure this reality (e.g. Durkon keeps getting killed so he levels down, Durkon/V are off the team for a while, V is turned into a lizard, V is off panel yet again, V is taken out before he can render the team useless, V's build doesn't include the very best school of magic so he can't just solve all their problems easily, etc). Take a look at the characters with the least on panel appearances. It's no surprise it's the casters. Them being around breaks the team, as they make the other 4 near useless at times. The author sometimes jokes about this, like when Hayley and Elan are discussing their elaborate plan to fight Tarquin's flying riders... then V just takes them all out in 1 shot. "Right, Wizard" mutters Hayley.

Of course the thread can go off on tangents.

But I just wanted to make sure we are all on the same page, that discussions about how Roy or a fighter would do against some theoretical optimal wizard and its summons is wholly irrelevant to how useful Roy is in a fight relative to V.

You might be right that V is still potentially more powerful than Roy, but just ensuring we are all aware that talking about theoretical wizard does nothing to advance that theory.

RatElemental

2021-09-23, 11:13 PM

Casting Defensively just means they don't get AoO, right?

I think he's saying it'll fizzle because you'll fail the concentration check for concentrating while taking damage.

Yes, but the full attack came on the hypothetical opponent's turn, not while the caster was casting, since they are casting on their turn. Not getting hit with an AoO due to casting defensively means the caster is not needing to make a concentration check from the damage of the AoO that didn't happen.

Injury

If while trying to cast a spell you take damage, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the level of the spell you’re casting). If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between when you start and when you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).

They could ready an action to attack when you cast, but that eats up their turn and you can't ready an action to full attack, it will be only one strike.

The MunchKING

2021-09-23, 11:17 PM

With a forcecage's duration of 17+ hours a Wizard has plenty of protection.

34, apparently it's 2/hr per level (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1102.html).

TooSoon

2021-09-23, 11:45 PM

34, apparently it's 2/hr per level (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1102.html).

My bad. On that note, V doesn't need to quicken every spell, just some quickened spells ensure they are smashing RC every round it happens. V doesn't need to dispel stuff he's counterspelling either. It depends how he deals with each attack. In any event, I think V is very clearly stronger than RC. If you think V is not optimized, check out RC who doesn't even have the fighter part of being a Cleric in his bag.

Mechalich

2021-09-23, 11:48 PM

Of course the thread can go off on tangents.

But I just wanted to make sure we are all on the same page, that discussions about how Roy or a fighter would do against some theoretical optimal wizard and its summons is wholly irrelevant to how useful Roy is in a fight relative to V.

You might be right that V is still potentially more powerful than Roy, but just ensuring we are all aware that talking about theoretical wizard does nothing to advance that theory.

Roy's not very optimized either though. For one, based on his observed damage output he certainly can't take down V in a single round even if he manages to land a full attack, which a fighter of his level ought to do. Given that, Roy vs. V is pretty much an automatic loss, since even if they start next to each other and Roy wins initiative V simply takes a five foot step, casts forcecage (or prismatic sphere is they are indeed level 17+ at this point), and can then dismantle Roy at their leisure. V has Dominate Person on their spell list, which is a nice win-condition spell considering a Fighter's poor will saves.

As to other casters, Redcloak smears Roy all over the place by casting Summon Monster IX and then unloading from behind his sand shield. Durkon's vampiric version managed to beat Roy and the fleshy version almost certainly can if he actually put together a daily spell list to operate as anything other than party support for once. Even Xykon's crummy spell list defeats Roy with essentially no risk by combining Fly and Energy Drain (this also defeats Belkar and Elan with similar ease, it would bring down Haley as well, but he'd probably take some damage from arrows in the process).

TooSoon

2021-09-23, 11:56 PM

Roy's not very optimized either though. For one, based on his observed damage output he certainly can't take down V in a single round even if he manages to land a full attack, which a fighter of his level ought to do. Given that, Roy vs. V is pretty much an automatic loss, since even if they start next to each other and Roy wins initiative V simply takes a five foot step, casts forcecage (or prismatic sphere is they are indeed level 17+ at this point), and can then dismantle Roy at their leisure. V has Dominate Person on their spell list, which is a nice win-condition spell considering a Fighter's poor will saves.

As to other casters, Redcloak smears Roy all over the place by casting Summon Monster IX and then unloading from behind his sand shield. Durkon's vampiric version managed to beat Roy and the fleshy version almost certainly can if he actually put together a daily spell list to operate as anything other than party support for once. Even Xykon's crummy spell list defeats Roy with essentially no risk by combining Fly and Energy Drain (this also defeats Belkar and Elan with similar ease, it would bring down Haley as well, but he'd probably take some damage from arrows in the process).

If V has something like foresight or the right contingency or celerity then even spell splice won't do anything.

The MunchKING

2021-09-24, 12:01 AM

Liquor Box

2021-09-24, 12:10 AM

Roy's not very optimized either though.

Exactly my point. V isn't nerfed - none of them are optimised.

For one, based on his observed damage output he certainly can't take down V in a single round even if he manages to land a full attack, which a fighter of his level ought to do. Given that, Roy vs. V is pretty much an automatic loss, since even if they start next to each other and Roy wins initiative V simply takes a five foot step, casts forcecage (or prismatic sphere is they are indeed level 17+ at this point), and can then dismantle Roy at their leisure. V has Dominate Person on their spell list, which is a nice win-condition spell considering a Fighter's poor will saves.

As to other casters, Redcloak smears Roy all over the place by casting Summon Monster IX and then unloading from behind his sand shield. Durkon's vampiric version managed to beat Roy and the fleshy version almost certainly can if he actually put together a daily spell list to operate as anything other than party support for once. Even Xykon's crummy spell list defeats Roy with essentially no risk by combining Fly and Energy Drain (this also defeats Belkar and Elan with similar ease, it would bring down Haley as well, but he'd probably take some damage from arrows in the process).

Didn't Roy beat Vampire Durkon at the Godsmoot (albeit not killed him). And I don;t think you can assume normal Durkon has time to prepare the optimal spell list for fighting Roy, I think the better comparison is the spells he usually has.

Xykon beats almost everyone in the world, I think that's a given

To be honest, I don't really disagree that the casters, if played properly (note, not designed differently) would probably be favoured to beat Roy. I just thought the discussion about some theoretical wizard was irrelevant to the question.

If V has something like foresight or the right contingency or celerity then even spell splice won't do anything.

Does he have those spells based on what we've seen.

woweedd

2021-09-24, 12:28 AM

Ah, I see we've gotten into "Roy's not optimized enough". Must be Tuesday.

Mechalich

2021-09-24, 12:43 AM

Roy DOES have a much higher than average Wisdom (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) and can actually (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html) make a Will save (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html).

At level 16 the difference between a good and bad save is +5. Roy has maybe Wis 14, which is an additional +2. He does not appear to have any significant save boosting items or feats. So his will save is still probably in the single digits, which is pretty bad.

Now, saving throws are one of those things that the author can manipulate fairly freely. Roy will make the saves the story needs him to make and fail the saves the story needs him to fail and the same thing is true of every other character. The thread remarking on the current fight has made this point with significant emphasis.

Didn't Roy beat Vampire Durkon at the Godsmoot (albeit not killed him).

That's a highly dubious win. For one, Durcula absolutely had Roy except for a 'sneak attack from behind' and was toying with Roy throughout the fight, considering that he had no need to fight Roy at all since he could have cast Antilife Shell from the start and simply didn't until Roy revealed his previously unknown weapon of legacy ability. Critically, that ability appears to include an effect that can actually permakil a vampire, putting Durcula in real danger for the first time.

Xykon beats almost everyone in the world, I think that's a given

It really isn't. Xykon's spell list (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) is really bad and would struggle severely to penetrate the defenses of even a moderately prepared opponent. He has to rely on using Superb Dispelling to smash apart an opponent's defenses and then concentrate on winning the subsequent burn battle. He's reasonably well designed to win that battle, admittedly, being both a sorcerer and a lich, but he has vulnerabilities. His complete and total lack of any minionomancy of his own, notably, is an issue, especially when it comes to opponents immune to mind-affecting and death attacks (ironically, he's vulnerable to being wailed on by the undead).

It also might be possible to round-robin Xykon out of superb dispellings (presumably he only has two epic spell slots) and once that's done he's unable to defeat a turtled-up caster.

TooSoon

2021-09-24, 01:13 AM

We actually don't even know if Xykon has 2 Epic Spell slots.

Xykon is unbeatable... except for that time he lost to Soon, and a Silver Dragon, or that time a level 8 fighter beat him, or that time he almost got taken out by an exploding Dungeon, etc, etc. The 2 most serious opponents Xykon has faced were both nerfed by the author for plot reasons. Both Durokan and V should have beaten him, but didn't because the story demanded it. In a straight up fight with the Ancient Black Dragon, Xykon almost certainly lose (assuming he didn't run away in time) based on the spells he has shown so far, and there are hundreds if not thousands of dragons in this world alone, and many monsters and dragons more powerfull than the ABD. With the limited amount I've seen of the Linear Guild, it feels like they would have been able to take down Xykon.

Xykon is powerful, but there are others more powerful.

Hurkyl

2021-09-24, 02:56 AM

Both Durokan and V should have beaten him, but didn't because the story demanded it.
Aside: do you really mean V specifically should have beaten him, or do you instead mean some completely different person who had access to the same resources but without arrogant belief he was powerful enough to casually brute force a victory? (I can't say anything about the Dorukan fight)

TooSoon

2021-09-24, 03:07 AM

Aside: do you really mean V specifically should have beaten him, or do you instead mean some completely different person who had access to the same resources but without arrogant belief he was powerful enough to casually brute force a victory? (I can't say anything about the Dorukan fight)

I mean someone who had the same strength as V, but employed moderate competence, and didn't lose because the plot demanded it. I believe Xykon COULD have somehow beat Dorukan, but the actual fight that happened (coupled with the actual abilities Xykon has shown) were worse than the V fight.

Let's be real here. If Durkon and Roy were able to spring an ambush in this dungeon with Durkon using Anti-Magic field, then Durkon and Roy would make short work of him based on the actual abilities Xykon has shown to date. Even Durkon by himself, provided he has Xykon in a relatively confined space so he can't run, would take Xykon down with an AMF probably. Xykon is little more than a skeleton with a lot of hit points in an AMF. His special abilities and magic are all gone. He'd be left with Epic Mage Armour, so he'd take less damage, but Durkon also has an artifact hammer which retains it's abilities in the AMF, so you'd have to give Durkon decent odds. Combined with Roy in such a situation Xykon is doomed. Yes, he can cast Superb Dispelling (at least once, we don't know if can do it more times), but that wont work. Each time he casts S.Dispelling he takes non-trivial backlash damage, and even if he could somehow cast it say 6 times, Durkon can prepare to cast AMF more than 6 times with ease. So Xykon is just damaging himself the more he dispels it. We know he doesn't have quicken spell, so he can't hustle out of there with a teleport after dispelling it. Durkon can just keep trapping him in it.

Mechalich

2021-09-24, 03:34 AM

I mean someone who had the same strength as V, but employed moderate competence, and didn't lose because the plot demanded it. I believe Xykon COULD have somehow beat Dorukan, but the actual fight that happened (coupled with the actual abilities Xykon has shown) were worse than the V fight.

V beats Xykon if they succeed on the concentration check invoked by the anti-spell traps in Xykon's base (which Redcloak, not Xykon, is responsible for) and thereby successfully open the fight using Time Stop. Xykon describes the check as super easy, which suggests it's impossible for him to fail. Assuming the lich has something like +30 to the check (that'd be around 20 hp of damage, not unreasonable), I'd imagine a DC around there, which is very makeable for a level 14-15 V (should be above +20, probably closer to +25). Even assuming a conservative 50% chance to pass the check, Xykon survives based on a coin toss, which is hardly something the 'ultimate villain' can hang his hat on.

Xykon is little more than a skeleton with a lot of hit points in an AMF. His special abilities and magic are all gone.

He may retain his damage reduction of 15/bludgeoning in an anti-magic field (depends on interpretation), even though the 'magic' part vanishes. That's significant against Roy (because he doesn't power attack), and other members of the Order. Honestly, the Order really ought to have invested in a few basic magical blunt weapons for Belkar, Elan, and Haley in the assumption of the upcoming lich fight (Roy's weapon of legacy appears to be able to overcome Xykon's damage reduction). +1 maces are cheap and abundant, and would make a huge difference for Belkar especially who is otherwise basically unable to damage Xykon at all.

Liquor Box

2021-09-24, 04:07 AM

That's a highly dubious win. For one, Durcula absolutely had Roy except for a 'sneak attack from behind' and was toying with Roy throughout the fight, considering that he had no need to fight Roy at all since he could have cast Antilife Shell from the start and simply didn't until Roy revealed his previously unknown weapon of legacy ability. Critically, that ability appears to include an effect that can actually permakil a vampire, putting Durcula in real danger for the first time.

Maybe. But I can't recall many times he lost to casters one on one.

It really isn't. Xykon's spell list (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) is really bad and would struggle severely to penetrate the defenses of even a moderately prepared opponent. He has to rely on using Superb Dispelling to smash apart an opponent's defenses and then concentrate on winning the subsequent burn battle. He's reasonably well designed to win that battle, admittedly, being both a sorcerer and a lich, but he has vulnerabilities. His complete and total lack of any minionomancy of his own, notably, is an issue, especially when it comes to opponents immune to mind-affecting and death attacks (ironically, he's vulnerable to being wailed on by the undead).

It also might be possible to round-robin Xykon out of superb dispellings (presumably he only has two epic spell slots) and once that's done he's unable to defeat a turtled-up caster.

Who can you think who is more powerful? Maybe the MitD?

He did already beat the three most powerful wizards of all time spliced together.

Any vulnerability you identify is only relevant to the extent there is a character who is set up to exploit those vulnerabilities, and whose usualy fighting style allows them to do so.

hamishspence

2021-09-24, 04:13 AM

He did already beat the three most powerful wizards of all time spliced together.

First- V had only two soul splices in the fight with Xykon, not three (V had lost Haerta's splice right after the fight with the black dragon).

Second, V is still bound by the action economy, so it's not like fighting two wizards - it's like fighting one wizard with access to the same amount of spells as two wizards.

Liquor Box

2021-09-24, 04:19 AM

First- V had only two soul splices in the fight with Xykon, not three (V had lost Haerta's splice right after the fight with the black dragon).

Second, V is still bound by the action economy, so it's not like fighting two wizards - it's like fighting one wizard with access to the same amount of spells as two wizards.

Yep, understand that (well, I'd forgotten that there were only two wizards left) but V at that point still must have been incredibly powerful, perhaps more powerful than any wizard ever, and Xykon stomped him.

TooSoon

2021-09-24, 04:20 AM

V beats Xykon if they succeed on the concentration check invoked by the anti-spell traps in Xykon's base (which Redcloak, not Xykon, is responsible for) and thereby successfully open the fight using Time Stop. Xykon describes the check as super easy, which suggests it's impossible for him to fail. Assuming the lich has something like +30 to the check (that'd be around 20 hp of damage, not unreasonable), I'd imagine a DC around there, which is very makeable for a level 14-15 V (should be above +20, probably closer to +25). Even assuming a conservative 50% chance to pass the check, Xykon survives based on a coin toss, which is hardly something the 'ultimate villain' can hang his hat on.

He may retain his damage reduction of 15/bludgeoning in an anti-magic field (depends on interpretation), even though the 'magic' part vanishes. That's significant against Roy (because he doesn't power attack), and other members of the Order. Honestly, the Order really ought to have invested in a few basic magical blunt weapons for Belkar, Elan, and Haley in the assumption of the upcoming lich fight (Roy's weapon of legacy appears to be able to overcome Xykon's damage reduction). +1 maces are cheap and abundant, and would make a huge difference for Belkar especially who is otherwise basically unable to damage Xykon at all.

1) No, Xykon loses his damage reduction. As I said, he's little more than a skeleton with a lot of HP in an AMF.
2) V could have used a tonne of ways to win if he fought remotely competently, it was not just contingent on the Time Stop (especially since all V has to do is cast the buffs they wanted to during Time Stop BEFORE they teleported in). Idiot ball/railroad plot sadly.
3) Durkon's hammer is a blunt weapon, and it retains it's magical abilities in an AMF because it's an artefact, which is why I mentioned it and noted Durkon would probably solo him if he cast AMF with Xykon's back against a wall. With Roy joining him it would be over in no time, basically unwinnable for Xykon as currently displayed (if he has other abilities we don't know about then maybe he could do something).

Xykon beating V (and Dorukan) was plot driven, not based on what should have happened with competent tactics employed. Xykon would get stomped by the ABD that V fought, never mind various Epic Monsters.

hamishspence

2021-09-24, 04:23 AM

1) No, Xykon loses his damage reduction. As I said, he's little more than a skeleton with a lot of HP in an AMF.something).

DR/bludgeoning is Extraordinary

DR/magic is Supernatural

DR/bludgeoning and magic, is two different DRs, combined. A case could be made that in an antimagic field, DR/Bludgeoning and magic, changes to "Just" DR/bludgeoning, rather than going away completely.

TooSoon

2021-09-24, 04:33 AM

DR/bludgeoning is Extraordinary

DR/magic is Supernatural

DR/bludgeoning and magic, is two different DRs, combined. A case could be made that in an antimagic field, DR/Bludgeoning and magic, changes to "Just" DR/bludgeoning, rather than going away completely.

This is the link to the Lich template in 3.5. It clearly lists the DR aspect as being (Su)/supernatural in nature, when it refers to both the bludgeoning and the magic resistance.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm
"Damage Reduction (Su)
A lich’s undead body is tough, giving the creature damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic. Its natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. "

Supernatural abilities are toast in the AMF, so Xykon gets no damage reduction of any kind. Xykon retains his extra-ordinary abilities, which are also listed; but damage reduction is not among them.