Strongest build in game (Change my mind)

[Aaedimus]

In my opinion, Bladesinger 18 Fighter 2 is the strongest lvl 20 build in the game
Bar none
By far.

I say this because of how the abilities of the wizard stack with shapechange, simulacrum, and true polymorph...

1v1 A Bladesinger Planetar or Maralith can out-fight every melee class in the game, and unless a class was designed to fight the Bladesinger specifically or gets off a lucky saving throw, it can overwhelm pretty much every other casting class

And it can do that twice in 1 turn as the Simulacrum has all the same abilities

So you're fighting 2 bladesinging Planetars or Maraliths, with action surge and all the high le elements spells?

I can't see any other class come close

[Kane0]

When do you take the 2 fighter levels?

[Aaedimus]

after you hit level 17 and get lvl 9 spells.

My real point was starting at lvl 19 (and including 20) there aren't any classes that can come close to competing combat-wise, and Wizard is also the most flexible caster.

[Sigreid]

This seems like bait for that Sorcerer King guy that used to post every so often.

[quindraco]

In my opinion, Bladesinger 18 Fighter 2 is the strongest lvl 20 build in the game
Bar none
By far.

I say this because of how the abilities of the wizard stack with shapechange, simulacrum, and true polymorph...

1v1 A Bladesinger Planetar or Maralith can out-fight every melee class in the game, and unless a class was designed to fight the Bladesinger specifically or gets off a lucky saving throw, it can overwhelm pretty much every other casting class

And it can do that twice in 1 turn as the Simulacrum has all the same abilities

So you're fighting 2 bladesinging Planetars or Maraliths, with action surge and all the high le elements spells?

I can't see any other class come close


True Polymorph can't do this. Your game statistics are replaced wholesale, including your Bladesinging. Shapechange could do it, if I'm reading it correctly. If you want an example build that's substantially more powerful, a Genielock would win a fight with this build at level 17 (as in, the Genielock is 17 and your build can be level 20) assuming both parties have time to prep simulacra.

[Kane0]

after you hit level 17 and get lvl 9 spells.

My real point was starting at lvl 19 (and including 20) there aren't any classes that can come close to competing combat-wise, and Wizard is also the most flexible caster.

So for levels 1-17 you're a stock standard Bladesinger Wizard. The Tasha's Version or the SCAG version?

How are you defining competing combat-wise and flexibility?

[Kuulvheysoon]

This seems like bait for that Sorcerer King guy that used to post every so often.

Man, I almost wish that they would, that'd be hilarious.

[DarknessEternal]

Using just the money you spent on Simulacrum, I'll buy the services of 7500 militia. They'll win.

[Hael]

The chronurgist or illusionist schools are generally considered superior at those lvls with say a sprinkling of artificer or cleric.

Even if melee is the only criterion, things are surprisingly competitive.
Consider that chronurgists get to concentrate on 4 spells (2 by their features and 2 by the simulacrum) compared to two for a bladesinger. At that lvl they can shapeshift into an exhaustion proof body and have unlimited use of convergent future.


You could shapeshift into a planetar, get buffed by foresight/fireshield, receive haste (familiar), holy weapon (from simulacrum wish) and greater invis/elemental weapon or bless (simulacrum familiar). It really comes down to whether the bladesinging feature is worth two 4th lvl spell buffs and the other features of a chronurgist.

[Zhorn]

Using just the money you spent on Simulacrum, I'll buy the services of 7500 militia. They'll win.
Ah yes, the classic hectopeasant strategy.
Honestly just as valid as any other that relies on access to large funds and the time needed to prepare, since the only rebutting arguments limiting those factors tend to shut down the original competing build also.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I mean... any cleric 20 build. 100% successful Divine Intervention says "shut this fool down so I can beat his ass."

Profit? And there's no way to claim that the build is meant to beat a Bladesinger 18/fighter 2; I didn't even specify a subclass, feat choice or anything at all, really. Arcana cleric would nab some of those much vaunted high level spells, if you need a subclass.

[kazaryu]

In my opinion, Bladesinger 18 Fighter 2 is the strongest lvl 20 build in the game
Bar none
By far.

I say this because of how the abilities of the wizard stack with shapechange, simulacrum, and true polymorph...

1v1 A Bladesinger Planetar or Maralith can out-fight every melee class in the game, and unless a class was designed to fight the Bladesinger specifically or gets off a lucky saving throw, it can overwhelm pretty much every other casting class

And it can do that twice in 1 turn as the Simulacrum has all the same abilities

So you're fighting 2 bladesinging Planetars or Maraliths, with action surge and all the high le elements spells?

I can't see any other class come close
To be fair you dont have to be 'specifically designed to fight a bladesinger' to be able to cast antimagic field. But thats just one counter, And really comparing classes in pvp is nearly pointless

[strangebloke]

Pretty sure a twilight cleric or hexblade is going to be better at most levels, but I'm also not invested in such a discussion.

[DarknessEternal]

Ah yes, the classic hectopeasant strategy.
Honestly just as valid as any other that relies on access to large funds and the time needed to prepare, since the only rebutting arguments limiting those factors tend to shut down the original competing build also.

Yeah, I don't even consider it hyperbolic to the people demanding only their special snowflake gets years of preparation and unlimited resources.

[Aaedimus]

True Polymorph can't do this. Your game statistics are replaced wholesale, including your Bladesinging. Shapechange could do it, if I'm reading it correctly. If you want an example build that's substantially more powerful, a Genielock would win a fight with this build at level 17 (as in, the Genielock is 17 and your build can be level 20) assuming both parties have time to prep simulacra.

True Polymorph can't but Shapechange can
He can use True Polymorph to create/change his steeds and constructs

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I just don't see this as that strong. Maraliths are taken apart by our martials by tier 3. Leaning into a melee build for a wizard in tier 4 seems counterproductive; I like Bladesingers through mid levels, but by late game why not get a subclass that gives a benefit to casting?
Something that's good by level 20? How about something with a great capstone, like Moon Druid and infinite hp.

[Unoriginal]

In my opinion, Bladesinger 18 Fighter 2 is the strongest lvl 20 build in the game
Bar none
By far.

The strongest build to do what? Fighting, I guess, but under which conditions?

That build can easily be outperformed by a pure Fighter or Monk in any adventure day that lasts longer than 1 hour.

[Valorant]

Not even close imo. At level 20 hexblade 1\evoker 17\2 Fighter can clean ancient red dragon in 2 turns. 1 artificer\17 chronourgy wizard (aka archron) can have +12+1d8 to initiative and have two high level concentration spells at once as the only wizard in game making him probably most or one of most broken builds in 5e. Level 20 Paladin builds (hex/sorc/mono/mix) can delete almost every enemy in 3 turns while being pretty much unkillable. 1 Hexblade/19 Lore or sword Bard can out DPR your blade singer using range build. Hell level 20 twilight cleric is more OP than bladesinger. There are melee builds that can have passive +25 DMG per hit without any buffs at all or any resources used. There are range builds that with cooperation of party can hit 360+ DPR in one turn. There are ways on making raw legit bag of holding bombs to one-shot everything in game.

Besides what are we talking about here in terms of "strongest"? Utility? There are better builds. Nova? There are better builds. DPR? There are better builds. Melee? There are better builds. PvP? This is not PvP game and at level 20 PvP is just who goes first pretty much. Strongest at what tier? Tier 1? There are better builds? Tier 2? There are much better builds. Tier 3? Depends on what scenario/measure. Tier 4? Do we even play there?

Hell your blade singer is useless as soon as he is grappled inside anti-magic field.

So I don't know what "strongest" build even mean here... But bladesinger while strong as all wizards are is not above tons of optimized power-builds we have in 5e.

[nickl_2000]

This seems like bait for that Sorcerer King guy that used to post every so often.

Don't say his name, if you say it 4 more times you summon him like the Candyman.

[Eldariel]

To be fair you dont have to be 'specifically designed to fight a bladesinger' to be able to cast antimagic field. But thats just one counter, And really comparing classes in pvp is nearly pointless

AMF isn't all that good TBH; if your enemy is under Shapechange they can just shift into a Dragon or a Planetar or whatever and shoot you dead. It basically means you have to fight against magic without any of your own; basically a suicide unless you can force enemy inside the Field.

Overall, yeah, any Wizard 18/Fighter 2 is near the top tier. Arcana Cleric 20 is really solid too, as are many Wizard 17/X 3 builds. The type of challenges determines what's truly optimal but yes, Bladesinger 18/Fighter 2 is obviously a hundred times stronger than any martial (which isn't saying much on this level). As for the "buying peasants", Shapechange makes it pretty trivial to get immunity to non-magical weapons and same goes for many high CR threats so I don't think the Peasant Army is really that impressive anymore.

[Valorant]

The type of challenges determines what's truly optimal but yes, Bladesinger 18/Fighter 2 is obviously a hundred times stronger than any martial (which isn't saying much on this level).

Excuse me but that is false. In what scenario? Because if talk about let's say 1v1 ancient red dragon then unless you are hexvoker tons of martial builds will kill him faster than your bladesinger since legendary resistance means you have no way to one-shot it and you need time first to buff yourself. Actually in straight 1v1 fight with most legendary resistance enemies a well build martial, especially range one or Paladin will way more effective at killing enemy. Nova martial builds are very very deadly.

That's why it depends a lot on scenario and "hundreds times" stronger is false as there is too many circumstances and combat is not white room scenario. Who won initiative? Did you spot hidden enemy? Do you have enemy in range? Do you have line of sight? Do you have time for buffs? How many turns till full DPR is on? Does enemy has legendary actions and magic resistance? How is your bladesinger Wis saving throw or cha saving throw compare to Paladin?

Depends on scenario, build, enemies

[Amnestic]

The strongest character build is one you enjoy playing :)

[kazaryu]

AMF isn't all that good TBH; if your enemy is under Shapechange they can just shift into a Dragon or a Planetar or whatever and shoot you dead. It basically means you have to fight against magic without any of your own; basically a suicide unless you can force enemy inside the Field.



i mean, they have options. a dragon is one potential choice for sure. planetar...not so much.


but that same weakness exists for literally any melee build. also, its pretty clear that OP was talking about a melee build. also setting of the fight matters. outdoors (or in an indoors area thats large enough it may as well be outdoors), almost any flying creature with a ranged attack is significantly boosted against almost any PC.

but really im not overly invested in this, as i said, pvp is a pretty terrible way to compare 'power' of PC's.

[mistajames]

1. As others have said Chronurgist can 'concentrate' on 4 spells at once via Simulacrum and Arcane Abeyance. They can use Convergent Future an unlimited number of times/day via Shapechange to guarantee successes/failures (again, as others have stated).

2. A well-built Illusionist gets literal reality warping twice/round from level 14 without spending resources. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

3. Sorcerer may be the best bet if it's a duel situation, due to their easy access to Quicken Spell and Subtle Spell.

4. Moon Druid gets basically limitless pools of HP and subtle casting bog standard at 20.

I like Bladesinger just fine, but I don't think it's the strongest build in the game or anywhere close to it.

[Valorant]

pvp is a pretty terrible way to compare 'power' of PC's.

Exactly. Especially since players HP does not scale with damage PCs can deal but with damage monsters can deal. Level 20 builds can easily deal on single crit attack damage of around 110-113 damage without rest of attacks which means you can 100-0 average lvl 20 wizard In one turn with almost one attack. PvP in this game does not make sense

[Eldariel]

i mean, they have options. a dragon is one potential choice for sure. planetar...not so much.


but that same weakness exists for literally any melee build. also, its pretty clear that OP was talking about a melee build. also setting of the fight matters. outdoors (or in an indoors area thats large enough it may as well be outdoors), almost any flying creature with a ranged attack is significantly boosted against almost any PC.

but really im not overly invested in this, as i said, pvp is a pretty terrible way to compare 'power' of PC's.

Which is why I said it applies PvE more-so than PvP. Why would any character with Shapechange be anything specific when the spell comes with built-in access to most spells in the game, ranged competence (Planetar works fine at range if you have Extra Attack and the proficiencies), melee competence and bull**** abilities? You use what suits the situation, which means your relevant numbers will be greater than martials'.


Excuse me but that is false. In what scenario? Because if talk about let's say 1v1 ancient red dragon then unless you are hexvoker tons of martial builds will kill him faster than your bladesinger since legendary resistance means you have no way to one-shot it and you need time first to buff yourself. Actually in straight 1v1 fight with most legendary resistance enemies a well build martial, especially range one or Paladin will way more effective at killing enemy. Nova martial builds are very very deadly.

That's why it depends a lot on scenario and "hundreds times" stronger is false as there is too many circumstances and combat is not white room scenario. Who won initiative? Did you spot hidden enemy? Do you have enemy in range? Do you have line of sight? Do you have time for buffs? How many turns till full DPR is on? Does enemy has legendary actions and magic resistance? How is your bladesinger Wis saving throw or cha saving throw compare to Paladin?

Depends on scenario, build, enemies

If you have Shapechange on, you can have better martial capability than a martial character, let alone your other abilities. And the martial capability gets better if you build on top of it, e.g. via. Bladesinger as mentioned or whatever. This isn't about 1v1.The game is about campaigns: Bladesinger is way better at literally everything but combat but it's better in combat by a fairly wide margin as well. Obviously Shapechange lets you turn into e.g. Elder Brain to get a 5 mile creature radar, Hollyphant/Unicorn/whatever for teleporting without error to completely determine the terms of engagement, Drow Matron Mother for infinite concentration-free minions, etc.

And martially you still have numbers competitive with any warrior (Bladesinger can actually use AC as a layer of defense without magic items on these levels unlike most martials and has attack runs perfectly competitive with Battlemaster 20 or any kind of Battlemaster/Gloomstalker/whatever multiclass) + 8 levels of spellcasting and Simulacrum that can do the same and a fairly large amount of any type of undead/tiny servants/whatever if the problem is such that it can be solved via peasant armies.

And this is before we get to Glyph of Warding + Demiplane buffing or such where you consume resources for even greater spikes of power.

And honestly, Extended Shapechange only lasts two hours a day but when you can teleport around at will and detect things from miles away and such, you can get more done in two hours than most parties get in two days so you can probably afford a two hour adventuring day. Not that you really need to, you're still a full caster even after it runs out.


In short, on level 20, casters >>>> martials and Wizards stand on top of the caster pile for obvious reasons (starting from True Polymorphing your Simulacrum into an Atropal and just spending an hour building a Wraith army and sending a thousand things at whatever you need dead), but nobody minds the Action Surge dip.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying Bladesinger is necessarily the best Wizard on this level though, nor that Wizard is the only Tier 0 class in the game. Many Bards and Arcana Cleric are quite competitive, though Wizard tends to get the most broken subclass abilities in stuff like Illusionist, Chronurgist, and even Evoker, Abjurer, Necromancer & Diviner [when you get a Simulacrum and Greater Portent, getting 6 Portents a day is already a fairly significant batch that does a lot]. Bladesinger has few neat tricks like using the Extra Attack in Shapechange forms to gain ranged prowess and stacking Bladesong with native defensive/offensive abilities and Shield [Marilith gets pretty ridiculous for instance] but ultimately breaking the fundamental rules of the game is generally stronger.

FWIW I don't think Moon Druid is that impressive; it has infinite elemental forms and nigh' infinite HP but it's as vulnerable as the next guy to getting their mind attacked and they need to rely on Shapechange to truly bust the big guns out at which point their class abilities aren't all that important anymore - invulnerability isn't really all that impressive on Tier 4. Indeed, I think Shepherd is better on Tier 4 by a comfortable margin since it makes the summons remain relevant through magic attacks.

[Valorant]

Which is why I said it applies PvE more-so than PvP. Why would any character with Shapechange be anything specific when the spell comes with built-in access to most spells in the game, ranged competence (Planetar works fine at range if you have Extra Attack and the proficiencies), melee competence and bull**** abilities? You use what suits the situation, which means your relevant numbers will be greater than martials'.



If you have Shapechange on, you can have better martial capability than a martial character, let alone your other abilities. And the martial capability gets better if you build on top of it, e.g. via. Bladesinger as mentioned or whatever. This isn't about 1v1.The game is about campaigns: Bladesinger is way better at literally everything but combat but it's better in combat by a fairly wide margin as well. Obviously Shapechange lets you turn into e.g. Elder Brain to get a 5 mile creature radar, Hollyphant/Unicorn/whatever for teleporting without error to completely determine the terms of engagement, Drow Matron Mother for infinite concentration-free minions, etc.

And martially you still have numbers competitive with any warrior (Bladesinger can actually use AC as a layer of defense without magic items on these levels unlike most martials and has attack runs perfectly competitive with Battlemaster 20 or any kind of Battlemaster/Gloomstalker/whatever multiclass) + 8 levels of spellcasting and Simulacrum that can do the same and a fairly large amount of any type of undead/tiny servants/whatever if the problem is such that it can be solved via peasant armies.

And this is before we get to Glyph of Warding + Demiplane buffing or such where you consume resources for even greater spikes of power.

And honestly, Extended Shapechange only lasts two hours a day but when you can teleport around at will and detect things from miles away and such, you can get more done in two hours than most parties get in two days so you can probably afford a two hour adventuring day. Not that you really need to, you're still a full caster even after it runs out.


In short, on level 20, casters >>>> martials and Wizards stand on top of the caster pile for obvious reasons (starting from True Polymorphing your Simulacrum into an Atropal and just spending an hour building a Wraith army and sending a thousand things at whatever you need dead), but nobody minds the Action Surge dip.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying Bladesinger is necessarily the best Wizard on this level though, nor that Wizard is the only Tier 0 class in the game. Many Bards and Arcana Cleric are quite competitive, though Wizard tends to get the most broken subclass abilities in stuff like Illusionist, Chronurgist, and even Evoker, Abjurer, Necromancer & Diviner [when you get a Simulacrum and Greater Portent, getting 6 Portents a day is already a fairly significant batch that does a lot]. Bladesinger has few neat tricks like using the Extra Attack in Shapechange forms to gain ranged prowess and stacking Bladesong with native defensive/offensive abilities and Shield [Marilith gets pretty ridiculous for instance] but ultimately breaking the fundamental rules of the game is generally stronger.

FWIW I don't think Moon Druid is that impressive; it has infinite elemental forms and nigh' infinite HP but it's as vulnerable as the next guy to getting their mind attacked and they need to rely on Shapechange to truly bust the big guns out at which point their class abilities aren't all that important anymore - invulnerability isn't really all that impressive on Tier 4. Indeed, I think Shepherd is better on Tier 4 by a comfortable margin since it makes the summons remain relevant through magic attacks.

Ok this all wrong on so many levels when it comes to real gameplay and not white room theorycraft scenarios that I can't treat it seriously. Similar discussions were in place before. You are only thinking in terms of perfect conditions and scenario for your power fantasy instead or realistic gameplay scenarios. But all I will say is this: nothing you mentioned is better than many just other wizard subclasses could do.

As many said it's wizard that's god tier, not bladesinger

[Eldariel]

Ok this all wrong on so many levels when it comes to real gameplay and not white room theorycraft scenarios that I can't treat it seriously. Similar discussions were in place before. You are only thinking in terms of perfect conditions and scenario for your power fantasy instead or realistic gameplay scenarios. But all I will say is this: nothing you mentioned is better than many just other wizard subclasses could do.

*shrug* Interesting then that I have played white room. What part of that doesn't apply to a game? It's certainly worked for me FWIW.

Note, I'm not saying you do any specific thing in any scenario, just all the sorts of things you can do. And that's completely intentional: the simple reason is that the approach you take to any given adventure path or encounter or problem depends entirely on said adventure path, problem or encounter and therefore no one-size-fits-all solutions can be presented here. But all of those are strong options, much stronger than a non-Wizard's "I can shoot for 400 damage a turn and that's about it". That leaves the whole meta-encounter solution to others since there's no meaningful information gathering, mobility, minionmancy, encounter framing, terrain shaping or such abilities in the mix. And it's not like you need to be a martial to attack for 400 a turn.


As many said it's wizard that's god tier, not bladesinger

I agree and actually already did in the quoted bold part of the post: it's Wizard that's god tier. Bladesinger is just a decent subclass among many, not the strongest but one with few neat tricks.

[KorvinStarmast]

This seems like bait for that Sorcerer King guy that used to post every so often. Complete with gifs and bad grammar.

Using just the money you spent on Simulacrum, I'll buy the services of 7500 militia. They'll win. Armed with long bows or heavy crossbows?

I mean... any cleric 20 build. 100% successful Divine Intervention says "shut this fool down so I can beat his ass."
{snip}
Arcana cleric would nab some of those much vaunted high level spells, if you need a subclass. Arcana Cleric grabs wish and can cast any spell level 8 and below, in the game. And is a full cleric. :smallbiggrin:
The strongest character build is one you enjoy playing :) +1

[Eldariel]

Arcana Cleric grabs wish and can cast any spell level 8 and below, in the game. And is a full cleric. :smallbiggrin:

I do prefer Shapechange. Wish does one awesome thing but Shapechange does a bunch of awesome things for an hour (or two if you've got Extend Spell). Hell, it technically even lets you recast itself and gain permanent buffs (of course, those are down to DM proviso). And Divine Intervention is obviously immune to AMF (it explicitly states divine magic is exempted) which is a mean combo with Shapechange; AMF alone isn't all that impressive but when you get to stack the mobility and offensive/defensive power (such as immunity to nonmagical weapons from e.g. Androsphinx/Thessalkraken/whatever) of Shapechange on top of it, it becomes pretty darn solid a defense/offense combo.

Wish does let you pick any level 6-7 spells (such as Forcecage or Teleport and like Magic Jar or Mass Suggestion or even Disintegrate for anti-Forcecage use) while Shapechange kinda locks you into picking Simulacrum and Contingency for those awesome longterm benefits, but I do think it's worth it.

[DarknessEternal]

Wish does let you pick any level 6-7 spells

Let's not forget the permanent, undispellable resistance to all damage.

[Eldariel]

Let's not forget the permanent, undispellable resistance to all damage.

That's pretty nice too, yeah. Though Shapechange can just give you just about twice your original HP plus Legendary Resistance, which is generally going to be better (aside from self-healing, which resistance does amplify). Admittedly these benefits cannot be permanently accessed unlike Wish-benefits. But they come in lieu of everything else, so it's not bad either.

[Witty Username]

I believe that build would be a Strength 8 or 10 making it far from the strongest build. :smallcool:

I think bladesinger 18/ fighter 2 will have some weak points depending on when you take the fighter levels and wizard 20 is pretty comparable to most of its multiclass options.

[kazaryu]

Which is why I said it applies PvE more-so than PvP. Why would any character with Shapechange be anything specific when the spell comes with built-in access to most spells in the game, ranged competence (Planetar works fine at range if you have Extra Attack and the proficiencies), melee competence and bull**** abilities? You use what suits the situation, which means your relevant numbers will be greater than martials'.



every one of my responses has been in the context of the OP. which was

1. melee fighting
and
2. pvp.

all i said was that you don't need to be built specifically in order to have AMF. which was a direct reply to op's 'this beats anything that isn't specifically built to beat it.'

so i suppose if i were to..actually try to enter an argument, i'd point out that spells like dispel magic and counterspell both can hard counter shapechange. a bit risky, perhaps, but its even possible to only cast them at 3rd level, and therefore save your own 9th level spell once you've taken away your opponents. The point being, this is far from unbeatable in general pvp, even without specifically building against it. and thats my only point. im not really interested in discussing how it stacks up in actual play...because really at 20th level...****in' anything goes.

side note: planetars don't get a ranged attack inherently. so you'd need to have a bow (or other ranged weapon) ready to use if you shapechange to a planetar. and...depending on DM you might need a large sized ranged weapon...im not 100% sure of the rules on using weapons for a creature too small for you. but thats really not a huge issue, more of a logistical hiccup you'd need to be ready for.

[follacchioso]

This build would indeed be quite strong. But what do you lose exactly, by taking two levels in Fighter compared to full Wizard?

- 4 known spells for free. Remember that lv9 spell scrolls are quite expensive and difficult to find; they are classified as Legendary Items. Missing out of 4 free spells is not a small deal. You mentioned True Polymorph and Shapechange; but what about Wish, Meteor Swarm, Prismatic Wall, and others? You could buy them, but for the same price your opponents will buy their Staff of Power or other 4 legendary items.

- One 6th and one 7th level slots. This is very painful at high levels. Spell slots are very limited in the 5th edition. In a high level battle, you always want to keep a 7th level slot available to Teleport away when things go wrong - the more powerful mages are the ones who know when to retreat to safety. In alternative, you may want to cast Forcecage to block a powerful enemy away - but that is also a 7th level slot.

So in practice you will be fighting with a handicap. You use your first turn to cast a 9th and a 8th spell using Action Surge. That will create complete mayhem. But at that level your opponents are likely to be able to resist that. They will Dispel your Shapechange or Forcecage you. And you will be left with only one 6th level slot, unless you dare using your 7th, renouncing to teleport.

- Two more prepared spells, plus two 3rd-level from Signature Spells. You may be surprised but spell preparation is a serious limit, even at higher levels. You will always be short of spells to prepare. There are spells that every wizard needs to include every day: Dispel, Counterspell, Teleport, Misty Step, Shield, Absorb Elements, and so on. Having space for 4 more spells is a big deal. Try to make a list of prepared spell for your wizard/fighter build, and you will see how painful it is to decide.

- One extra feat. At those levels you will already have all the feats that you needed: Warcaster, Resilient(CON), and max INT. But there are always great benefits from an extra feat. Get Proficiency in CHA or STR/DEX rolls, which are always a weak point for wizards. Get expertise in Arcana to better craft spell scrolls and items. Get a couple of meta magic feats, so you can cast that subtle Teleport or Counterspell when you really need it, or surprise your enemies with a Distant Feeblemind.


On the other hand, what do the two Fighter levels give you, compared to Full Wizard?

- A Fighting Style This is probably going to be Defense or Blind Fighting. This is very useful on any character. However, you could spend the equivalent 1,000,000 gp that you miss out on free spell known to buy a very good armor, or a dagger of blindsight.

- Second Wind This is a BA healing, which is always useful, and it will be likely your only source of healing outside of magic items. It's good but only 1D10+2.

- Action Surge This is probably the only real gain for this build. You get an extra action - but no more than once per fight. You'd better have a very good plan for it. Losing access to one 6th and 7th slots limits the things you can do it with it.

- Armor and Shield proficiencies that you can't use Bladesinging does not work with medium or heavy armor and shield, so you won't get much benefits from these proficiencies.

- CON proficiency if you start Fighter at lv 1[b/] CON saves are important for concentration, but you cannot really go around at lv20 without WIS proficiency anyways. You will never get more than +1 or +2 to WIS; this means that a lv3 character with Hold Person has a good chance to put you out of the fight. So, you will still need to spend a feat for Resilient, either to get WIS saves on a Fighter, or CON on a Wizard.

- [b]Fewer actual feats Your Wizard/Fighter will also have to raise STR or at least DEX if you want to do something meaningful with your weapon attacks, meaning they have even fewer Feats available.


So in short, I think your build is strong; but I don't think the benefits outweigh the costs. I would never renounce to 6th and 7th spell slots just for Action Surge.

[kazaryu]

- One extra feat. At those levels you will already have all the feats that you needed: Warcaster, Resilient(CON), and max INT. But there are always great benefits from an extra feat. Get Proficiency in CHA or STR/DEX rolls, which are always a weak point for wizards. Get expertise in Arcana to better craft spell scrolls and items. Get a couple of meta magic feats, so you can cast that subtle Teleport or Counterspell when you really need it, or surprise your enemies with a Distant Feeblemind.


very small nitpick. you can only take resiliant once. because it doesn't specify that you can take it multiple times.

[follacchioso]

very small nitpick. you can only take resiliant once. because it doesn't specify that you can take it multiple times.Thanks, I never noticed that... That makes things harder for every build.

[kazaryu]

Thanks, I never noticed that... That makes things harder for every build.

yeh....off the top of my head there's only like 2-3 spells you can take multiple times. and most of those are...pretty useless. like elemental affinity (attunement?) is probably the strongest of them

[Eldariel]

every one of my responses has been in the context of the OP. which was

1. melee fighting
and
2. pvp.

all i said was that you don't need to be built specifically in order to have AMF. which was a direct reply to op's 'this beats anything that isn't specifically built to beat it.'


That's fair, I was merely pointing out a shortcoming of AMF vs. Shapechange as a whole rather than in the context of OP; whenever you have the spell and Extra Attack, you have a whole slew of options. I would consider most non-Arcana Cleric AMF users suicidal unless your enemy starts in the radius (which, given OP's text, is of course possible; it's a good gotcha but a poor overall strategy).

Dispel Magic is of course a solid alternative and one you need to prepare for; Contingency, magic items (particularly Rod of Absorption and its ilk), Counterspell, Globe of Invulnerability-like effects (True Polymorph an ally or a rock into a Hollyphant and you have a carriable version that makes you straight-up immune regardless of the level of Dispel Magic/Counterspell), etc. do offer a slew of alternatives to that end. I do find it sad that this game lacks Disjunction. That would be a welcome counterbalance to the absurdly powerful high level magic. Indeed, I do include it in my games; Globe of Invulnerability making you straight-up immune to antimagic abilities aside from AMF is a bit dumb as is AMF having no magic-based counters even among 9th level spells [Wish arguably, yes, but that obviously doesn't count since it's equally a counter to anything else].

[Captain Panda]

Using just the money you spent on Simulacrum, I'll buy the services of 7500 militia. They'll win.

Where exactly are you going to find a mercenary army? And how would they "win," exactly? Are you expecting them to just spawn next to him like you console commanded them in? o.O Dude's a level 20 wizard, finding people to mess with him for 2 silver? That's kind of a joke. Also, 2 silver a day is for an unskilled worker, wouldn't mercs willing to face a level 20 wizard be worth a lot more than that, and you'd need to pay them for longer than a day?

[DarknessEternal]

Where exactly are you going to find a mercenary army? And how would they "win," exactly? Are you expecting them to just spawn next to him like you console commanded them in? o.O Dude's a level 20 wizard, finding people to mess with him for 2 silver? That's kind of a joke. Also, 2 silver a day is for an unskilled worker, wouldn't mercs willing to face a level 20 wizard be worth a lot more than that, and you'd need to pay them for longer than a day?

Why would any of that be jutified? OP is emerging out of the ether already fully prepared. I'm only matching his stipulations.

[Chronos]

Quoth follacchioso:

- 4 known spells for free. Remember that lv9 spell scrolls are quite expensive and difficult to find; they are classified as Legendary Items. Missing out of 4 free spells is not a small deal. You mentioned True Polymorph and Shapechange; but what about Wish, Meteor Swarm, Prismatic Wall, and others? You could buy them, but for the same price your opponents will buy their Staff of Power or other 4 legendary items.
Why would you waste so much money on scrolls to fill up your spellbook? It's much cheaper and easier to get them from other spellbooks, either from friends who share willingly, neutrals who share for a price, or enemies you defeat and loot.

[kazaryu]

Dispel Magic is of course a solid alternative and one you need to prepare for; Contingency, magic items (particularly Rod of Absorption and its ilk), Counterspell, Globe of Invulnerability-like effects (True Polymorph an ally or a rock into a Hollyphant and you have a carriable version that makes you straight-up immune regardless of the level of Dispel Magic/Counterspell), etc. do offer a slew of alternatives to that end. I do find it sad that this game lacks Disjunction. That would be a welcome counterbalance to the absurdly powerful high level magic. Indeed, I do include it in my games; Globe of Invulnerability making you straight-up immune to antimagic abilities aside from AMF is a bit dumb as is AMF having no magic-based counters even among 9th level spells [Wish arguably, yes, but that obviously doesn't count since it's equally a counter to anything else].

globe i actually think is pretty ok. its a 6th level spell, so its expected to be powerful. and it takes concentration, which means that you can't really use most of the high level spell combos in conjunction with it, unless you're using multiple PC's. and even then, you can't combine it with some of the more powerful ones that are self cast only. so like, you can't as a BS wizard use globe on invulnerability and shapechange to make yourself a near magic immune planetar...or whatever. and im a big fan of combos that encourage teamwork. your example seems to (imo) be more a problem with True Polymorph than Globe of invulnerability.

AMF im also ok with not having a magical counter. i mean, by its own rules if you're casting AMF not only are you at least a 15th level spell caster, you're a 15th level spell caster that has completely removed their own magic. as you pointed out. and there are a few magical counters to it, although you're right that there aren't many. there are some things you can do with certain types of summons. although that part requires some thinking on your part in order to plan for the loss of control (a gated summon or planar ally wouldn't have this difficulty....they have other difficulties). and undead would also work. not many, as you said. but i don't really think thats a problem, since the caster has to remove magic from themselves too.

[sithlordnergal]

Using just the money you spent on Simulacrum, I'll buy the services of 7500 militia. They'll win.

What money was spent? At that level it takes 1 action and a single Wish spell to get an instant Simulacrum for free.

[sithlordnergal]

Sooo, important question, how do you deal with Moon Druids? Sure, you have the Simulacrum, but that goes away via Dispel Magic, and while you can hit hard via your attacks and, potentially, spells, but the Druid spell list can be just as devastating and you have to deal with a constantly refreshing supply of HP. In order to hurt the Moon Druid you'd need to deal enough damage to knock them below 100hp and them use Power Word Kill. You might be able to do it via Power Word Kill, but again that all depends on going first, and if the Druid has been smart they'll take Alert to help go first.

[Eldariel]

Sooo, important question, how do you deal with Moon Druids? Sure, you have the Simulacrum, but that goes away via Dispel Magic, and while you can hit hard via your attacks and, potentially, spells, but the Druid spell list can be just as devastating and you have to deal with a constantly refreshing supply of HP. In order to hurt the Moon Druid you'd need to deal enough damage to knock them below 100hp and them use Power Word Kill. You might be able to do it via Power Word Kill, but again that all depends on going first, and if the Druid has been smart they'll take Alert to help go first.

Moon Druid really isn't all that impressive on high levels. It has a lot of HP but it is just as vulnerable to failing a mental save as anyone else, whether it be against Feeblemind, Hypnotic Pattern, Plane Shift, Hold Monster, Magic Jar, Dominate Monster, or whatever. Druids don't have Counterspell on their list making spell fights somewhat one-sided. As you mentioned, Power Words are also relevant (Power Word: Stun from Glabrezu is available through Shapechange and works up to 150 HP which most Wildshape forms don't cross).

It's also possible to land enough damage to not care; Marilith Bladesinger using bladesong does 6 attacks at 2d8+9 and one at 2d10+9. The attack bonus is only +9 but the Druid is unlikely to have very high AC (off the top of my head it maxes out around 17 in the Earth Elemental form). This means that even martially, without advantage, Bladesinger using Action Surge could deal 230ish damage a turn vs. AC 13 [e.g. Mammoth] or 180ish damage vs. AC 17 [e.g. Earth Elemental], which is enough to punch through Wildshape defenses. It's not enough to kill alone but add almost anything from a Simulacrum and it does go lethal. Let alone any sort of Glyph of Warding buffing or some source of advantage or magic items or whatever. Hell, even at range, Planetar with the +5d8 attacks into a Sharpshooter/XBE shell and Haste from companion could do 6 attacks (2 + 2 Action Surge + bonus action + Haste) at +13ish/+8ish for again about 200 damage vs. AC 13 and 165 damage vs. AC 17. If there were a source of advantage (say, Major Image), the damage would be 250/220 instead. And if the character also had taken Elven Accuracy, we'd be talking about 266/250 damage.


Moon Druid gets some nice abilities, the most important of which is permanent Earth Glide from Earth Elemental. That does mean they are good at avoiding a high level Wizard though. Indeed, Earth Glide is a royal PiTA. Indeed, it might be enough to get the Wizard to blow their level 9 spell on the Simulacrum: Gate (if they know the Druid's name, they can call them unerringly to whatever well-prepared death house they want).

The Druid can also cast Shapechange though they don't get as good synergies with it as a Wizard (lacking True Polymorph, Counterspell, Simulacrum, etc.). Still, anyone under Shapechange is extremely dangerous. And Druids can get Counterspell through Mark of the Sentinel. The fact that Druids don't get Simulacrum (the Wizard and the Simulacrum aren't just waiting for you to Dispel it; if there's a Globe aura, Dispelling straight-up doesn't work and even if that's not the case), Wish, True Polymorph and similars though do make me rank them under Wizard on these levels even though they are pretty good against most monsters in the game as well as at beating martials.

But casters are their biggest weakness; there are too many things casters can do that either go over and above their Wildshape gimmick, or bypass it entirely.

[Valorant]

Sooo, important question, how do you deal with Moon Druids? Sure, you have the Simulacrum, but that goes away via Dispel Magic, and while you can hit hard via your attacks and, potentially, spells, but the Druid spell list can be just as devastating and you have to deal with a constantly refreshing supply of HP. In order to hurt the Moon Druid you'd need to deal enough damage to knock them below 100hp and them use Power Word Kill. You might be able to do it via Power Word Kill, but again that all depends on going first, and if the Druid has been smart they'll take Alert to help go first.

Plane shift. Bye.

Feeblemind. Druid is now complete brainless and can think of nothing.

Simulacrum ready actio fog cloud into your force cage. Walk away.

Kill it's beast shape with enough overdamage to bring druid under 100 hp ( can be done easy with hexvoker). Power word kill.

Besides it's not PVP game so you won't ever even fight lvl 20 moon druid.

[sithlordnergal]

I feel like you two may be underestimating the power of the Druid spell list, as well as the power of a Moon Druid's Elemental Forms. I'd say the Simulacrum is more of a minor issue than anything else, even if its protected by a Globe of Invulnerability. All the Druid needs to do is enter the globe, then you can freely dispel it since Globe of Invulnerability only stops spells cast from outside of the barrier. And depending on the shape the Druid chooses, they can stand in other creatures spaces. And keep in mind that if it were a level 20 duel, Wizards are unable to Counterspell Druids because they ignore Verbal, Somatic, and Material spell components, provided the Material isn't consumed and lacks a cost, so there's really no way to stop a Dispel Magic.

The wizard build still has plenty of ways to deal a lot of damage, though in order to get advantage from being unseen they would need to remain beyond 60 feet due to tremorsense, or be flying. Even then, you get a single action surge, and without the simulacrum it won't be enough to one shot said druid. After which they can cast Heal to fix up most of, if not all, of the damage you dealt to them, and reactivate Wildshape with their bonus action. That wizard may have ways to deal a ton of damage, but the Druid can survive and outlast those methods, provided the Simulacrum goes down on turn one.

As for spells like Counterspell, as you mentioned Druids can get Counterspell as well via Mark of the Sentinel. As for Shapechange and True Polymorph, I feel like True Polymorph might be somewhat of a trap for Wizards, since they lose all of their class/character abilities. And as was stated, most creatures, especially CR 20 and below, simply aren't able to deal enough damage to kill a Moon Druid. That leaves trapping a Druid with Forcecage, using Feeblemind, and Power Word spells.

I feel like out of those, the only real option is Feeblemind and Power Word Kill. With Forcecage you haven't really won a fight, just put an hour long pause on it or, if your DM says you can cast through the half bars, given a way for the Druid to continue to fight back. Plane Shift won't do much since a Druid has that spell as well, and any Moon Druid worth their salt should always have Fog Cloud prepared to prevent casters from targeting them since Moon Druids can see through it via Tremorsense and Wizards typically can't.

Though as mentioned, it isn't pvp...in which case I do have a contender for a build that can deal more damage, though slightly less consistently:

Order of Scribes 18/Tempest Cleric 2

Use wish to get a Simulacrum, so there are 2 of you,. When a fight happens, you can cast Meteor Swarm, make all the damage into Lightning damage, provided you have Prismatic Wall, and then use the Tempest Cleric's Channel Divinity to deal max lightning damage.

[Eldariel]

Oh I agree, the Druid casting is pretty good. Just entering the Globe is not trivial though; there are two 20th level spellcasters with potential readied actions and other abilities so if you make yourself an available target, you might find yourself rolling saves pretty fast (to this end, Diviner and Chronurgist of course match up vs. Moon Druid better since they can force failed saves; though Shapechange gives access to Legendary Saves). As for killing in a single go, Druid 20 has Shapechange. That's their biggest power and that makes killing them exceedingly non-trivial. Without Shapechange though, well, Shapechange gives its user plenty of ways to also permakill somebody.

EDIT: Not to mention, the Simulacrum likely has a Contingency which enables countering at least one attempt at Dispelling one way or another.

True Polymorph though? As an example, it lets you turn your Simulacrum into an Atropal that can on average produce a controlled Wraith per 6 rounds (on average 1 2/3 per minute or 5 per 6 minutes). Imagine that this character literally exists for one day. That's 1200 controlled Wraiths. That lets you solve almost anything already. And that's not the only way: many creatures have minion producing abilities. This is part of why I think a character without True Polymorph and Simulacrum will have an exceedingly hard time matching one that does on a campaign of any length: True Polymorph just turbocharges the Simulacrum and having two Concentration slots and two "me"-loyalty creatures is just immensely useful. And you can do that after the Simulacrum has burnt their high level slots (say, Extended Foresight or Wish or whatever).

[JNAProductions]

Plane shift. Bye.

Feeblemind. Druid is now complete brainless and can think of nothing.

Simulacrum ready actio fog cloud into your force cage. Walk away.

Kill it's beast shape with enough overdamage to bring druid under 100 hp ( can be done easy with hexvoker). Power word kill.

Besides it's not PVP game so you won't ever even fight lvl 20 moon druid.

Plane Shift delays. Doesn't kill. Especially given this is a Moon Druid, and so will not be killed by teleporting them to an elemental plane.

Feeblemind wouldn't stop them from killing you. They can still see you as an enemy, and can still Wild Shape.

Force Cage and Fog Cloud will... What's the point? It'll slow them down for an hour. That's it.

Power Word Kill requires you to not have expended your ninth level slot. For instance, Wishing up a Simulacrum would take that.
You'd also have to do, assuming Air Elemental (with the lowest HP at 90) and a Druid with 16 Con, 153 HP worth of damage in one go and still have an action left over for Power Word Kill.

I do agree you're unlikely to fight a level 20 Moon Druid, barring explicit PvP... But none of these tricks seem like they'd do much.

[Valorant]

Plane Shift delays. Doesn't kill. Especially given this is a Moon Druid, and so will not be killed by teleporting them to an elemental plane.

Feeblemind wouldn't stop them from killing you. They can still see you as an enemy, and can still Wild Shape.

Force Cage and Fog Cloud will... What's the point? It'll slow them down for an hour. That's it.

Power Word Kill requires you to not have expended your ninth level slot. For instance, Wishing up a Simulacrum would take that.
You'd also have to do, assuming Air Elemental (with the lowest HP at 90) and a Druid with 16 Con, 153 HP worth of damage in one go and still have an action left over for Power Word Kill.

I do agree you're unlikely to fight a level 20 Moon Druid, barring explicit PvP... But none of these tricks seem like they'd do much.

Winning is not always killing. And feeble mind makes him so stupid he wouldn't be able to beast shape again since he wouldn't even know he can do it. So just kill current shape and then druid.

[JNAProductions]

Winning is not always killing. And feeble mind makes him so stupid he wouldn't be able to beast shape again since he wouldn't even know he can do it. So just kill current shape and then druid.

You're assigning a lot of power to Feeblemind it doesn't state it has.

Would you also say a dragon cannot breathe their breath weapon when affected by Feeblemind?
Or that a mimic couldn't shapeshift? I could definitely see saying that the mimic's disguises would be far worse, owing to not having the intellect needed to choose a proper item to pretend to be, but they still can do it.

So why would a Druid, who's now in their 19th level of shapeshifting, who's got it down so hard they can do it literally at-will... Why wouldn't they be able to do so?

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Amused by someone saying Wish does "only one awesome thing."

I know that's meant re: 1 casting but...

If we're talking a level 20 build, the caster has had wish a while (level 17-18).

At this point they are:
Resistant to all damage
Unkillable via a never ending supply of clones
Have a full powered Simulacrum
A Demiplane they can retreat to that even gods would have trouble getting to uninvited.

I'm not even trying to give this deep thought, just the casual stuff that keeps out.

[Amnestic]

It's almost like simulacrum is a dumb spell that shouldn't exist! Weird!

[Valorant]

You're assigning a lot of power to Feeblemind it doesn't state it has.

Would you also say a dragon cannot breathe their breath weapon when affected by Feeblemind?
Or that a mimic couldn't shapeshift? I could definitely see saying that the mimic's disguises would be far worse, owing to not having the intellect needed to choose a proper item to pretend to be, but they still can do it.

So why would a Druid, who's now in their 19th level of shapeshifting, who's got it down so hard they can do it literally at-will... Why wouldn't they be able to do so?

Because your int is 1. You are as stupid as frog. And dragon can use breath because it's his natural weapon as claws are for cat. But shape shift for druid is technique he had to learn, same as his powers. Dragon was born with breath weapon same as mimic with shape shifting. On int 1 he is reduced to basic humanoid instincts and he is too stupid to be able to use anything beyond that that he learnt. So using your analogy - druid with feeblemind can still spit saliva with int 1. And I don't assign a lot of power. It's you who try to underpower it. It's 8th level spell. It basically shatters your mind as it says

[JNAProductions]

Because your int is 1. You are as stupid as frog. And dragon can use breath because it's his natural weapon as claws are for cat. But shape shift for druid is technique he had to learn, same as his powers. On int 1 he is reduced to basic humanoid instincts and he is too stupid to be able to use anything beyond that that he learnt. So using your analogy - druid with feeblemind can still spit saliva with int 1. And I don't assign a lot of power. It's you who try to underpower it. It's 8th level spell. It basically shatters your mind as it says

So you’re saying that you can’t practice something enough to make it second nature?

Clearly, Monks should lose their increased unarmed damage too.
All PCs should lose their proficiencies in armor and weapons, regardless of the source.

Or, perhaps, we should do what the spell says.

[Valorant]

So you’re saying that you can’t practice something enough to make it second nature?

Clearly, Monks should lose their increased unarmed damage too.
All PCs should lose their proficiencies in armor and weapons, regardless of the source.

Or, perhaps, we should do what the spell says.

Monk would use unarmed damage but he would be unable to use anything but mindless attacking if we assume he is intelligent at this point enough to do this. Feeblemind don't make you fell into some sort of berserk. It makes you pretty much brainless.

We do what spell says - you are brainless and can't do anything that requires any sort of logical thinking. Your mind is completely shattered

[JNAProductions]

Monk would use unarmed damage but he would be unable to use anything but mindless attacking if we assume he is intelligent at this point enough to do this. Feeblemind don't make you fell into some sort of berserk. It makes you pretty much brainless.

We do what spell says - you are brainless and can't do anything that requires any sort of logical thinking. Your mind is completely shattered

But the monk has TRAINED to make their fists as good as a blade. If you can’t access anything you had to learn, you shouldn’t get that. Or the ability to add proficiency bonus to your weapon attacks. Or using armor proficiently. Or feats. Or even have a proficiency bonus, since that’s learned. If you’re going that route, take it to its conclusion-or use the spell as written.

[Valorant]

But the monk has TRAINED to make their fists as good as a blade. If you can’t access anything you had to learn, you shouldn’t get that. Or the ability to add proficiency bonus to your weapon attacks. Or using armor proficiently. Or feats. Or even have a proficiency bonus, since that’s learned. If you’re going that route, take it to its conclusion-or use the spell as written.

I told you my reasons. You do you at your table. Failing save of level 8 spell is and should be devastating. Its not some minor issue of having int 1 but if you want to undersell spell of level that few mortals and immortals wield then go ahead. Not my problem

[JNAProductions]

I told you my reasons. You do you at your table. Failing save of level 8 spell is and should be devastating. Its not some minor issue of having int 1 but if you want to undersell spell of level that few mortals and immortals wield then go ahead. Not my problem

Your reasoning is inconsistent with your statement.

Either you can still do anything the spell says you can't (within the bounds of being an absolute idiot, as represented by Int 1 and Cha 1) or you add a whole host of other powers to it. To quote you:


Because your int is 1. You are as stupid as frog. And dragon can use breath because it's his natural weapon as claws are for cat. But shape shift for druid is technique he had to learn, same as his powers. Dragon was born with breath weapon same as mimic with shape shifting. On int 1 he is reduced to basic humanoid instincts and he is too stupid to be able to use anything beyond that that he learnt. So using your analogy - druid with feeblemind can still spit saliva with int 1. And I don't assign a lot of power. It's you who try to underpower it. It's 8th level spell. It basically shatters your mind as it says

Using weapons? Technique you learned.
Unarmed strike damage increase, whether from Tavern Brawler or Monk levels? Technique you learned.
Using armor effectively? Technique you learned.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I told you my reasons. You do you at your table. Failing save of level 8 spell is and should be devastating. Its not some minor issue of having int 1 but if you want to undersell spell of level that few mortals and immortals wield then go ahead. Not my problem

It's debilitating enough doing only what it says, we don't have to add more power because we don't like that there's things it doesn't do.

[Valorant]

It's debilitating enough doing only what it says, we don't have to add more power because we don't like that there's things it doesn't do.

You have full rights to rule it that way. I think int 1 affects a lot of stuff and that's how I rule it. Each to his own

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Hmm, feeblemind also only works on things without contingency. Another major weakness.

Simplest answer is Contingency: any negative effect that can be cured by Greater Restoration: cast Greater Restoration.

And that's not even a smart use of it, just an obvious one.

[JNAProductions]

You have full rights to rule it that way. I think int 1 affects a lot of stuff and that's how I rule it. Each to his own

And your ruling is inconsistent with your stated reasoning.


Hmm, feeblemind also only works on things without contingency. Another major weakness.

Simplest answer is Contingency: any negative effect that can be cured by Greater Restoration: cast Greater Restoration.

And that's not even a smart use of it, just an obvious one.

Schrodinger's Wizard is quite a bit more powerful than any real Wizard, after all. :P

Edit: Though that specific Contingency isn't possible, unless you somehow learn Greater Restoration as a Wizard. Wish can duplicate it, but it's still a 9th level spell.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Hmm, feeblemind also only works on things without contingency. Another major weakness.

Simplest answer is Contingency: any negative effect that can be cured by Greater Restoration: cast Greater Restoration.

And that's not even a smart use of it, just an obvious one.

That's a dangerous use of contingency, not going to lie. That'll make it trigger if you get charmed, for example. I've never much liked contingency, not going to lie. It's fantastic if you know what you're going to face, but just as a general spell... not so much.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

It isn't an optimal Contingency, it was a simple one. Most smart Wizards have things like ",If I am in X amount of danger port me to my demiplane."

[kazaryu]

That's a dangerous use of contingency, not going to lie. That'll make it trigger if you get charmed, for example. I've never much liked contingency, not going to lie. It's fantastic if you know what you're going to face, but just as a general spell... not so much.

For general use, contingency is better used to allow you to cast a spell without taking up action economy. Something like 'if i speak x passphrase, cast x spell' with x spell probably being some kind of generalized buff like greafer invis or haste. So youre always ready to go with something, but its for basically any situation you might need

[Kane0]

It isn't an optimal Contingency, it was a simple one. Most smart Wizards have things like ",If I am in X amount of danger port me to my demiplane."

I once made the mistake of setting a contingency to 'If I take X damage trigger Invisibility'

Party couldn't see my invisible corpse to heal me up.

[kazaryu]

I once made the mistake of setting a contingency to 'If I take X damage trigger Invisibility'

Party couldn't see my invisible corpse to heal me up.

tbf, contingency is still you casting/concentrating on the spell. at least, there's nothing the 'contingency' that states that its not you (unlike glyph of warding where it explicitly states that the spell lasts its full duration, even if its concentration.). obviously there can be major benefits to not having it be your concentration, and if your table plays that way, cool. but RaW, i don't think thts how its supposed to work

[Kane0]

Sorry I should have been more specific, that particular bad contingency was in a PF game.

[DarknessEternal]

It's even double wrong for 5e, since turning invisible doesn't hide you. Everyone would still know where you are until you took the Hide action.

[strangebloke]

It's even double wrong for 5e, since turning invisible doesn't hide you. Everyone would still know where you are until you took the Hide action.

sigh not necessarily. Your position can be deduced through other senses if you are not hidden, but that's not the same thing as saying it will be determined. Based both off WOTC's guidance on audible ranges (often less than 30 feet depending on what you're doing) and off the real difficulties of deducing someone's position if you can't see them, the "can locate" thing is pretty clearly intended as an exception rather than the rule. I don't know where someone a hundred miles away is just because he hasn't taken the hide action; you clearly need to be able to hear them hear them well enough to guess their position.

In this case, where its literally an invisible lump of carrion, I would at a minimum require that the gang do an investigation check to find it.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

tbf, contingency is still you casting/concentrating on the spell. at least, there's nothing the 'contingency' that states that its not you (unlike glyph of warding where it explicitly states that the spell lasts its full duration, even if its concentration.). obviously there can be major benefits to not having it be your concentration, and if your table plays that way, cool. but RaW, i don't think thts how its supposed to work

You cast it at the same time you cast Contingency. You cast that spell—called the contingent spell—as part of casting contingency, expending spell slots for both, but the contingent spell doesn’t come into effect. Instead, it takes effect when a certain circumstance occurs."

So you might have an argument about Concentration, but not the casting itself.

[kazaryu]

You cast it at the same time you cast Contingency. You cast that spell—called the contingent spell—as part of casting contingency, expending spell slots for both, but the contingent spell doesn’t come into effect. Instead, it takes effect when a certain circumstance occurs."

So you might have an argument about Concentration, but not the casting itself.

i do have an argument about the casting itself...in fact i made the argument already.

deliberately triggering your contingent spell requires no action economy, assuming you set the trigger up in such a way that you can trigger it yourself. what is it you think you're replying to?

[follacchioso]

Such a long discussion, but nobody answered my points :-)

So Shapechange is a great spell, but what about getting Metamagic Adept for Quickened Spell, and spend the 2 sorcery points to cast it as a Bonus Action?

That would be less expensive than investing two whole levels in Fighter for Action Surge.

[JNAProductions]

Such a long discussion, but nobody answered my points :-)

So Shapechange is a great spell, but what about getting Metamagic Adept for Quickened Spell, and spend the 2 sorcery points to cast it as a Bonus Action?

That would be less expensive than investing two whole levels in Fighter for Action Surge.

Are you looking to cast two spells in one round?

Then you need Action Surge. If you cast a spell as a Bonus Action, the only other spells you can cast that turn are Cantrips.

[Eldariel]

Such a long discussion, but nobody answered my points :-)

So Shapechange is a great spell, but what about getting Metamagic Adept for Quickened Spell, and spend the 2 sorcery points to cast it as a Bonus Action?

That would be less expensive than investing two whole levels in Fighter for Action Surge.

WhyNotBoth.jpg? That said, I prefer Extended Shapechange to Quickened Shapechange: still 1 point of metamagic left and the ability to probably go through more encounters with it active. When you've got 2 hours and the ability to creature detect and teleport and such, you don't really need to play the "walk into encounters and hope to win them"-game. I do think you should generally try to start fights with Shapechange active rather than shifting during the fight; otherwise you won't have access to Legendary Resistances and such before your first turn. As it happens, Action Surge goes superbly with creatures' abilities: hit twice as a Marilith, breathe and savage as a dragon, blenderize as Pit Fiend, double Feeblemind as Sibriex (without using spell slots), Swarm of Eyes + Possession as Kalaraq Quori, Plane Shift + Mass Suggestion as Githyanki Supreme Leader, double spell + 4 attacks as Gloom Weaver, etc.

[Hael]

WhyNotBoth.jpg? That said, I prefer Extended Shapechange to Quickened Shapechange: still 1 point of metamagic left and the ability to probably go through more encounters with it active. When you've got 2 hours and the ability to creature detect and teleport and such, you don't really need to play the "walk into encounters and hope to win them"-game. I do think you should generally try to start fights with Shapechange active rather than shifting during the fight; otherwise you won't have access to Legendary Resistances and such before your first turn. As it happens, Action Surge goes superbly with creatures' abilities: hit twice as a Marilith, breathe and savage as a dragon, blenderize as Pit Fiend, double Feeblemind as Sibriex (without using spell slots), Swarm of Eyes + Possession as Kalaraq Quori, Plane Shift + Mass Suggestion as Githyanki Supreme Leader, double spell + 4 attacks as Gloom Weaver, etc.

Extended foresight on top of all that is pretty nasty. Tier4 play is very silly!

[Eldariel]

Extended foresight on top of all that is pretty nasty. Tier4 play is very silly!

And of course you get to have Extended Mind Blank freeing up your 8th level slot for e.g. Maze or whatever. And still 1 point of metamagic left for a use of Subtle Spell or Extended Spell.

[follacchioso]

Are you looking to cast two spells in one round?

Then you need Action Surge. If you cast a spell as a Bonus Action, the only other spells you can cast that turn are Cantrips.Hi, I was looking at casting Shapechange as BA, then use the Action to attack as the new form. This may not be as effective and flexible as an Action Surge, but it is much less expensive.

[Corey]

True Polymorph can't but Shapechange can
He can use True Polymorph to create/change his steeds and constructs

A lot of these build ideas are awfully vulnerable to Dispel Magic.

And by the way, Dispel Magic can potentially be Twinned.

Of course, Simulacrums can cast Counterspell ...


eso i suppose if i were to..actually try to enter an argument, i'd point out that spells like dispel magic and counterspell both can hard counter shapechange. a bit risky, perhaps, but its even possible to only cast them at 3rd level, and therefore save your own 9th level spell once you've taken away your opponents. The point being, this is far from unbeatable in general pvp, even without specifically building against it. and thats my only point. im not really interested in discussing how it stacks up in actual play...because really at 20th level...****in' anything goes.


Of course, you beat me to the point.

As for the "risky" part -- Dispel and Counterspell DCs never get higher than 19, so Glibness guarantees success on the rolls ... assuming, of course that it isn't Dispelled either.

[Kuulvheysoon]

A lot of these build ideas are awfully vulnerable to Dispel Magic.

And by the way, Dispel Magic can potentially be Twinned.

Of course, Simulacrums can cast Counterspell ...

Not a problem, actually. RAW, counterspell's range cannot be extended beyond 60 feet, and dispel magic has a range of 120 feet. You've got a much bigger window to dispel it then they do to counter you.

[Corey]

Not a problem, actually. RAW, counterspell's range cannot be extended beyond 60 feet, and dispel magic has a range of 120 feet. You've got a much bigger window to dispel it then they do to counter you.

Good point.




Simplest answer is Contingency: any negative effect that can be cured by Greater Restoration: cast Greater Restoration.



Who can do that, other than Lore Bards?

[RogueJK]

Who can do that, other than Lore Bards?

Mark of Healing Halfling Wizards Level 11+: Contingency is on the Wizard spell list, and Mark of Healing adds Greater Restoration to the spell list of any of their spellcasting classes

Level 17+ Arcana Clerics: Pick Contingency as your 6th level Arcane Mastery option; Greater Restoration is on the Cleric spell list

Any Level 14+ Bard (not just Lore): Take Contingency as one of your Level 14 Magical Secrets picks; Greater Restoration is on the Bard spell list

[Corey]

Mark of Healing Halfling Wizards

Level 17+ Arcana Clerics

Any Level 14+ Bard (not just Lore)

Yeah. I was coming back here to confess that I was wrong to specify "Lore".

Any Bard can put together a good list of shenanigans spells.

[Ashrym]

In my opinion, Bladesinger 18 Fighter 2 is the strongest lvl 20 build in the game
Bar none
By far.

They burn through resources fast, are still susceptible to low rolls, and lack skill benefits. They are good for taking damage and recovering it but susceptible to status effects. Song of defense is not a great ability given that shield or absorb elements can be applied through spell mastery for better damage mitigation than song of defense is providing for slots at that level. Those spells even without spell mastery is usually a better deal.

Just pause on that for a moment. A 1st-level slot to prevent 5 points of damage from a single attack vs a 1st-level slot that cuts the 91 damage from an ancient red dragon in half. Absorb elements lasts a round. Shield lasts a round. Song of defense burns a slot for a single instant of damage.

Blade song is good, but there are too many things that bypass AC.


Schrodinger's Wizard is quite a bit more powerful than any real Wizard, after all. :P

Edit: Though that specific Contingency isn't possible, unless you somehow learn Greater Restoration as a Wizard. Wish can duplicate it, but it's still a 9th level spell.

Schrodinger everything can be OP. ;-)


Who can do that, other than Lore Bards?

Any bard who picks up both spells, as mentioned. Arcana clerics and divine soul sorcerers can pull it off too. Wizards or genie warlocks with the mark of healing can do it.

Probably not the best use of contingency but it is possible if a person wants.

Bards via magical secrets, arcana clerics, sorcerers, genie warlocks, and wizards are all capable of wish shenanigans. Bards and wizards can combing wish and true polymorph shenanigans.

[Captain Panda]

You have full rights to rule it that way. I think int 1 affects a lot of stuff and that's how I rule it. Each to his own

But that's a house rule, not the rule, and this is a debate about the most optimized build.

------


On the topic of a level 20 moon druid vs. a level 20 wizard.

I love druids. Druids are my boys. When I play, 80% of the time it's druid, so believe me when I say I don't want to admit this: at level 20, the wizard has a strong advantage if it is being played intelligently. Once you hit 17+, wizards are the GOAT. The OP seems to think it's bladesinger wizards with fighter dip? Meh, any wizard at that point is amazing and you don't really need the fighter dip. In fact, the bladesinger/fighter leaning shows you are really not comprehending the power of an unleashed 17+ wizard.

[RogueJK]

divine soul sorcerers can pull it off too.

Only with Wish. Otherwise, Divine Soul Sorcerers don't get Contingency, since it's on neither the Sorcerer nor the Cleric spell list. Wizard only.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Only with Wish. Otherwise, Divine Soul Sorcerers don't get Contingency, since it's on neither the Sorcerer nor the Cleric spell list. Wizard only.

The thing about that, I'm not even sure you need whatever spell you plan on casting with contingency, I'd have to look a bit deeper but I think using Wish to do so would cover both.

[Ashrym]

Only with Wish. Otherwise, Divine Soul Sorcerers don't get Contingency, since it's on neither the Sorcerer nor the Cleric spell list. Wizard only.

With wish is how I was expecting it to get done. Replicating spells with wish goes a long way for several classes.

[Tana]

In my opinion, Bladesinger 18 Fighter 2 is the strongest lvl 20 build in the game
Bar none
By far.

I say this because of how the abilities of the wizard stack with shapechange, simulacrum, and true polymorph...

1v1 A Bladesinger Planetar or Maralith can out-fight every melee class in the game, and unless a class was designed to fight the Bladesinger specifically or gets off a lucky saving throw, it can overwhelm pretty much every other casting class

And it can do that twice in 1 turn as the Simulacrum has all the same abilities

So you're fighting 2 bladesinging Planetars or Maraliths, with action surge and all the high le elements spells?

I can't see any other class come close

Clockwork Soul Sorcerer level 20.

Name: The Bastion of Law
Class: Sorcerer (Clockwork Soul)
Race: Shadow Mark Elf
Background: Criminal Spy
Level: 20

Stats
STR 8 CON 14 DEX 16 WIS 16 INT 9 CHA 16
HP : 122 + 25 HP 7th Aid + 25 Armor of Agathys + 22 (Bastion of Law feature) = 195
Feats: Skill Expert (Stealth +1wis), Resilient (+1 WIS), Telepathic (+1 CHA), Sentinel feat, Actor (+1 Cha)

Saving Throws: +8 Con +9 wis + 9 Cha.
It automatically pass all wis, con and cha Saving Throw with Trance of Order
Skill proficiencies: Deception, Arcana, Persuation, Stealth, Perception (Race)

Contingency Condition: ""If an enemy can see me and approaching 160ft or less of me, cast Distant Dimention Door."

Cantrips: Known; Shocking Grasp, Mage Hand, Booming Blade, Firebolt, Chill Touch

Spell known:
1 - Armor of Agathys, Absorb Elements
2 - Aid Spell, Pass Without Trace
3 - Counterspell, Dispel, NonDetection
4 - Dimention Door, Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, Banishment
5 - Skill Empowerment, Greater Restoration, Dominate Person, Planar Binding
6 - Freezing Sphere, Disintegrate, Mass Suggestion, Flesh to Stone
7 - Etherealness, Plane Shift, Reverse Gravity
8 - Horrid Wilting
9 - Wish, Meteor Swarm

Invisibility (Race), Minor Illlusion, Detect Through (Telephatic).

e automatically wins every mental saving throw.
Stealth check: +10 Pass without trace+16 stealth check +1d4 (Mark of Shadow), With Advantage (Help action) and Magical Guidance for still more reliability.
With Trance of Order, It means 36~46+1d4 of Stealth check.
Simulacrum's Invisibility(Racials) for extra sweet effect
With subtle spell, It's the most powerful stealth casting of the entire game. When you cast a subtle spell, It doesn't reveal you.
Extended Seeming avoid detection.

With amazing stealth check. Subtle Skill Empowerment and Trance of Law, Telephatic feat. The Bastion of Law can manipulate any creature without reveal himself.





Undetectable, Immunity to all spells with Trance of Order, Wished Simulacrum (previously).

Simulacrum Subtle Polymorph against the Wizard/fighter + Sorcerer's Flesh to stone.
Or just Subtle Dominate Person/Monster.

It's over.

[Eldariel]

Clockwork Soul Sorcerer level 20.

Name: The Bastion of Law
Class: Sorcerer (Clockwork Soul)
Race: Shadow Mark Elf
Background: Criminal Spy
Level: 20

Stats
STR 8 CON 14 DEX 16 WIS 16 INT 9 CHA 16
HP : 122 + 25 HP 7th Aid + 25 Armor of Agathys + 22 (Bastion of Law feature) = 195
Feats: Skill Expert (Stealth +1wis), Resilient (+1 WIS), Telepathic (+1 CHA), Sentinel feat, Actor (+1 Cha)

Saving Throws: +8 Con +9 wis + 9 Cha.
It automatically pass all wis, con and cha Saving Throw with Trance of Order
Skill proficiencies: Deception, Arcana, Persuation, Stealth, Perception (Race)

Contingency Condition: ""If an enemy can see me and approaching 160ft or less of me, cast Distant Dimention Door."

Cantrips: Known; Shocking Grasp, Mage Hand, Booming Blade, Firebolt, Chill Touch

Spell known:
1 - Armor of Agathys, Absorb Elements
2 - Aid Spell, Pass Without Trace
3 - Counterspell, Dispel, NonDetection
4 - Dimention Door, Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, Banishment
5 - Skill Empowerment, Greater Restoration, Dominate Person, Planar Binding
6 - Freezing Sphere, Disintegrate, Mass Suggestion, Flesh to Stone
7 - Etherealness, Plane Shift, Reverse Gravity
8 - Horrid Wilting
9 - Wish, Meteor Swarm

Invisibility (Race), Minor Illlusion, Detect Through (Telephatic).

e automatically wins every mental saving throw.
Stealth check: +10 Pass without trace+16 stealth check +1d4 (Mark of Shadow), With Advantage (Help action) and Magical Guidance for still more reliability.
With Trance of Order, It means 36~46+1d4 of Stealth check.
Simulacrum's Invisibility(Racials) for extra sweet effect
With subtle spell, It's the most powerful stealth casting of the entire game. When you cast a subtle spell, It doesn't reveal you.
Extended Seeming avoid detection.

With amazing stealth check. Subtle Skill Empowerment and Trance of Law, Telephatic feat. The Bastion of Law can manipulate any creature without reveal himself.





Undetectable, Immunity to all spells with Trance of Order, Wished Simulacrum (previously).

Simulacrum Subtle Polymorph against the Wizard/fighter + Sorcerer's Flesh to stone.
Or just Subtle Dominate Person/Monster.

It's over.

You should find a way to get Mind Blank. Otherwise anyone with Shapechange or True Polymorph, or any natural Elder Brain, Uliathrid, Neothelid or similar will automatically detect you and pinpoint you, negating the whole build (though that goes for something as simple as a Bat-familiar or anything with Blindsight, but sense sentience has a range of miles and penetrates all obstacles so it has far less counterplay).

[Tana]

You should find a way to get Mind Blank. Otherwise anyone with Shapechange or True Polymorph, or any natural Elder Brain, Uliathrid, Neothelid or similar will automatically detect you and pinpoint you, negating the whole build (though that goes for something as simple as a Bat-familiar or anything with Blindsight, but sense sentience has a range of miles and penetrates all obstacles so it has far less counterplay).
It doesnt automatic detect, It still require a stealth check.
Nondetection works.

[Eldariel]

Nondetection.

The issue with Nondetection is that it takes 25gp per casting and only lasts 8 hours. Not much at a glance but it lasts 8 hours; you need to maintain it constantly so we're talking about 75gp per day. In a year you're burning 27375gp, which is not nothing. If you use Extend Spell on each casting, you can get by with half that but it's still 13687,5gp.

As for automatic detection, you know the direction and the distance which is as good as being aware of target's position ("500' in X direction" lets you pinpoint the creature though it's still invisible WRT you).

[Tana]

The issue with Nondetection is that it takes 25gp per casting and only lasts 8 hours. Not much at a glance but it lasts 8 hours; you need to maintain it constantly so we're talking about 75gp per day. In a year you're burning 27375gp, which is not nothing. If you use Extend Spell on each casting, you can get by with half that but it's still 13687,5gp.

As for automatic detection, you know the direction and the distance which is as good as being aware of target's position ("500' in X direction" lets you pinpoint the creature though it's still invisible WRT you).
"Blindsight lets you spot an invisible creature in range, but that creature can still try to hide behind something with Stealth."
Jeremy.
You can also cast wished twinned Mind Blank

[Corey]

Undetectable, Immunity to all spells with Trance of Order, Wished Simulacrum (previously).

Simulacrum Subtle Polymorph against the Wizard/fighter + Sorcerer's Flesh to stone.
Or just Subtle Dominate Person/Monster.

It's over.

You have a lot going on there that has a duration of only 1 minute, such as the "immunity to all spells" -- which even for the one minute doesn't seem to actually work against Feeblemind, Fireball, Disintegrate or various others.

Spellcasting also breaks invisibility, and if you meant Greater Invisibility -- again, that's a 1 minute thing, or 2 if you use Extend Spell.

Once you're visible, Dispel Magic can poof away a Simulacrum.

See Invisibility and True Seeing aren't concentration spells. Faerie Fire also is unfriendly to invisibility-based strategies.


You seem to be thinking of this as another PvP exercise, so I won't claim that Legendary Saves are a problem for you, but even against other players, you probably shouldn't assume they'll fail every save.

[Eldariel]

"Blindsight lets you spot an invisible creature in range, but that creature can still try to hide behind something with Stealth."
Jeremy.
You can also cast wished twinned Mind Blank

Indeed. The issue with Blindsight is that it means you need something to hide behind. It negates the Invisibility, and Stealth entirely if the environment doesn't offer good hiding positions.


You seem to be thinking of this as another PvP exercise, so I won't claim that Legendary Saves are a problem for you, but even against other players, you probably shouldn't assume they'll fail every save.

It's worth noting that even PCs can get Legendary Resistance through, again, Shapechange and True Polymorph. And your general adventuring form should probably have them unless you're doing something special that doesn't offer the option.

[Corey]

It's worth noting that even PCs can get Legendary Resistance through, again, Shapechange and True Polymorph. And your general adventuring form should probably have them unless you're doing something special that doesn't offer the option.


True Polymorph has the advantage that you can cast it as many days (or months or years) in advance as you wish.

But like so much else, it is of course subject to Dispel.

[Eldariel]

True Polymorph has the advantage that you can cast it as many days (or months or years) in advance as you wish.

But like so much else, it is of course subject to Dispel.

Aye. Shapechange has the advantage that it lets you still cast spells though which is why I generally prefer not True Polymorphing myself (though True Polymorph on your Simulacrum once its spell loadout it spent is of course a great idea unless you want to make another one). And the fact that it gives you the ability to switch from creature to creature with an action is of course insane; you get your choice of all those abilities as needed.

[Corey]

Aye. Shapechange has the advantage that it lets you still cast spells though which is why I generally prefer not True Polymorphing myself (though True Polymorph on your Simulacrum once its spell loadout it spent is of course a great idea unless you want to make another one). And the fact that it gives you the ability to switch from creature to creature with an action is of course insane; you get your choice of all those abilities as needed.

Yeah. I can't find any workaround that lets you spellcast if True Polymorphed.

So I'm not sure how to get Legendary Resistances just adventuring around. True Polymorph renounces spellcasting, and Shapechange uses your top spell slot.

[Eldariel]

Yeah. I can't find any workaround that lets you spellcast if True Polymorphed.

So I'm not sure how to get Legendary Resistances just adventuring around. True Polymorph renounces spellcasting, and Shapechange uses your top spell slot.

Well, the obvious option is to cast Extended Shapechange and then do whatever you need to do in those 2 hours. You should be able to do a fair bit given you can teleport and plane shift basically for free and detect creatures at it too. That's a 2 hour adventuring day, granted, but you're so efficient with all those options that it should be at the very least as efficient as a normal 8 day adventuring day.

[Tana]

You have a lot going on there that has a duration of only 1 minute, such as the "immunity to all spells" -- which even for the one minute doesn't seem to actually work against Feeblemind, Fireball, Disintegrate or various others.

Spellcasting also breaks invisibility, and if you meant Greater Invisibility -- again, that's a 1 minute thing, or 2 if you use Extend Spell.

Once you're visible, Dispel Magic can poof away a Simulacrum.

See Invisibility and True Seeing aren't concentration spells. Faerie Fire also is unfriendly to invisibility-based strategies.


You seem to be thinking of this as another PvP exercise, so I won't claim that Legendary Saves are a problem for you, but even against other players, you probably shouldn't assume they'll fail every save.
Feeblemind is countered by Mind Blank or Simulacrum's greater restoration.
1 minute is a lot to a decisive battle.
It will never be visible. Subtle Spells doesnt reveal the caster. It remains hidden

See invisible or True Seeming is countered by Mind Blank and Nondetection.
Its effectively. Undetectable.


Legendary resistence is a problem? Idk

[Corey]

Well, the obvious option is to cast Extended Shapechange and then do whatever you need to do in those 2 hours. You should be able to do a fair bit given you can teleport and plane shift basically for free and detect creatures at it too. That's a 2 hour adventuring day, granted, but you're so efficient with all those options that it should be at the very least as efficient as a normal 8 day adventuring day.

Oh. Right. Metamagic Adept works for Extended (and Subtle) even if I don't want to dip into Sorcerer.

[Eldariel]

Feeblemind is countered by Mind Blank or Simulacrum's greater restoration.
1 minute is a lot to a decisive battle.
It will never be visible. Subtle Spells doesnt reveal the caster. It remains hidden

See invisible or True Seeming is countered by Mind Blank and Nondetection.
Its effectively. Undetectable.


Legendary resistence is a problem? Idk

So what do you imagine the scenario is anyways? You know where your opponent is, the opponent is unaware of you, you close in, cast Greater Invisibility, sneak up on them all the while they do nothing and start casting spells on them? That...doesn't sound all that likely.

[Corey]

Feeblemind is countered by Mind Blank or Simulacrum's greater restoration.
1 minute is a lot to a decisive battle.
It will never be visible. Subtle Spells doesnt reveal the caster. It remains hidden

See invisible or True Seeming is countered by Mind Blank and Nondetection.
Its effectively. Undetectable.


Legendary resistence is a problem? Idk

Mind Blank could be read either way, but your interpretation is certainly defensible.

Wouldn't work for Faerie Fire, however.

And if I was taking attacks from invisible attackers who I couldn't detect, I might decide to leave the area.

Or I might decide to cast Invisibility on myself to make their attacks more difficult.

[Tana]

So what do you imagine the scenario is anyways? You know where your opponent is, the opponent is unaware of you, you close in, cast Greater Invisibility, sneak up on them all the while they do nothing and start casting spells on them? That...doesn't sound all that likely.
Invibility is an hour or two if extended.

Strongest build in game (change my mind). Well. Its the Clockwork Soul Sorcerer. My arguments is solid. Multiclass it? Paladin?
Subtle Dominate Person. Sutble Empowered Meteor Swarm, Subtle Dispel. Distant Empowered Freezing Sphere. Twin Simulacrum. 100 hp healing as an action. High manipulation spells subtly and unbeatiable skill checks with trance of order + subtle skill empowerment spell.

[Corey]

Invibility is an hour or two if extended.

Strongest build in game (change my mind). Well. Its the Clockwork Soul Sorcerer. My arguments is solid. Multiclass it? Paladin?
Subtle Dominate Person. Sutble Empowered Meteor Swarm, Subtle Dispel. Distant Empowered Freezing Sphere. Twin Simulacrum. 100 hp healing as an action. High manipulation spells subtly and unbeatiable skill checks with trance of order + subtle skill empowerment spell.

Invisibility doesn't last if you attack.
Greater Invisibility doesn't last for an hour.

Twinning Simulacrum is another rules-interpretation challenge.

[Tana]

Mind Blank could be read either way, but your interpretation is certainly defensible.

Wouldn't work for Faerie Fire, however.

And if I was taking attacks from invisible attackers who I couldn't detect, I might decide to leave the area.

Or I might decide to cast Invisibility on myself to make their attacks more difficult.
Yes. Mind Blank counters feeblemind and divination spells.

Faerie Fire against who? If the anemy is hidden. You cant locate him.
But. It is a suicide action against level 20 creature. S
Wasting a turn and concentration is a dead sentence. And it still doesnt reveal him. Its useless. Also Faeri Fire isnt a Wizard spell
Finally. Subtle Counterspell and nothing happens.



You are considering that the bladesinger / fighter will fight. But it wont. Its over before the battle starts for him.

[Tana]

Mind Blank could be read either way, but your interpretation is certainly defensible.

Wouldn't work for Faerie Fire, however.

And if I was taking attacks from invisible attackers who I couldn't detect, I might decide to leave the area.

Or I might decide to cast Invisibility on myself to make their attacks more difficult.


Invisibility doesn't last if you attack.
Greater Invisibility doesn't last for an hour.

Twinning Simulacrum is another rules-interpretation challenge.
Cast Invisibility and then, cast subtle Greater Invisibility if you want to attack.

Twin Simulacrum works 😅

With Clockwork Sorcerer 18 + Paladin 2 or warlock
It automatically wins wis saves, int saves and cha saves. + sorlock and sorcadin shenanigans
Well. Its over.


Antimagic Field lockdown.


The easiest way to win: Hexblade Sorlock.
Subtle Antimagic Field.
Bladesinger doesn't wear medium armor, shield or heavy armor. Bladesinging is magical, it doesn't work inside Antimagic Field.
Trance of Order, Hexblade armor and weapons, clockwork cavalcade aren't magical features, improved pact weapon for +1 non magical. Those features work inside Antimagic Field.

Inside the Antimagic Field the battle is over.
Attack roll 20 ~30, minimum 20.
Sentinel feat will reduce Bladesinger speed to 0 if it tries scape.

It's over. 100% chance of hit, healling 100 as action (can use it more than one time), can't scape, It can't break Sorcerer's Concetration, hexblade's curse = easy to beat.

Bladesinger/Fighter is strong, but It isn't the strongest build, certainly.




I have to go now.

[Eldariel]

Cast Invisibility and then, cast subtle Greater Invisibility if you want to attack.

Twin Simulacrum works 😅

With Clockwork Sorcerer 18 + Paladin 2 or warlock
It automatically wins wis saves, int saves and cha saves. + sorlock and sorcadin shenanigans
Well. Its over.


Antimagic Field lockdown.


The easiest way to win: Hexblade Sorlock.
Subtle Antimagic Field.
Bladesinger doesn't wear medium armor, shield or heavy armor. Bladesinging is magical, it doesn't work inside Antimagic Field.
Trance of Order, Hexblade armor and weapons, clockwork cavalcade aren't magical features, improved pact weapon for +1 non magical. Those features work inside Antimagic Field.

Inside the Antimagic Field the battle is over.
Attack roll 20 ~30, minimum 20.
Sentinel feat will reduce Bladesinger speed to 0 if it tries scape.

It's over. 100% chance of hit, healling 100 as action (can use it more than one time), can't scape, It can't break Sorcerer's Concetration, hexblade's curse = easy to beat.

Bladesinger/Fighter is strong, but It isn't the strongest build, certainly.




I have to go now.

RAW Twin Wish doesn't work. (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/128061/can-you-apply-metamagic-to-a-wished-spell) Crawford RAI they do.

Anyways, how did you plan to get a Wizard the AMF? If a Bladesinger/Fighter moves next to you, you are already dead. They can effortlessly deal more than lethal damage in one turn. It's literally the selling point of the build.

Though against other casters, they are better advised to engage at 600' in e.g. Planetar shape where there's little counterplay available for most casters.


Sorc 20 is strong on the back of Wish and metamagic. Maybe the 4th strongest class, behind Wizard, Bard and Arcana Cleric. Druid is kinda similar to Sorc; deficient access to level 9 spells but otherwise very strong.

See, power in Tier 4 is largely down to which 9th level spells you get (and select few from lower levels, most of which all these classes have). Few class features (most prominently Divine Intervention, Moon Wildshape, Metamagic, and Every Wizard Bull**** School) do make a difference, but it's largely the 9th level spells. They are strong enough that each 1/day is a high power character without ANY OTHER CLASS FEATURES.

The most important:

True Polymorph - Infinite Wraiths, invulnerability, superbuff allies, you name it, this does it. The only drawback is, you need minions to use this on. Personally it's anemic due to costing casting.

Shapechange - The largest expansion to character abilities in the game and the way to the largest numeric results. Does basically anything if you put your mind to it.

Wish - Comes with built-in Simulacrum, Contingency, Magic Jar, Find Greater Steed, Planar Binding, etc. If you can build Simulacrums the oldfashioned way or have a 9th level caster friend or "friend", also gives you among others resistance to all damage. That's pretty good.

Gate - The strongest assassination tool in the game. If you know the name of someone, you can basically make them appear wherever. Buff up, cast few Symbols and Glyphs of Warding, make it a private sanctum and summon target soon-to-be dead thing. Oh and the spell does a few other things too.


Those are generally the most important ones of which Sorc only has two lower priority ones. Sorc lacks access to Atropal toys for infinite Wraiths and free teleportation/magic circle/etc. This combined with worse primary ability score (the best information gathering spell in the game, Contact Other Plane, is Int-based) makes sorcerer a strategic cripple: their planar and spatial mobility, minionmancy, and information gathering are all C tier. If tasked with fighting a competent Wizard 17+, a Sorc would likely die before even knowing what their enemy is, let alone where they are or what they are doing.

[Tana]

Sage Advice:
Can my sorcerer use Twinned Spell on a spell duplicated by the casting of a wish spell? And if so, how many sorcery points does it cost? Yes, you can. It costs the number of sorcery points appropriate for the level of the spell you’re duplicating.

[Tana]

RAW Twin Wish doesn't work. (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/128061/can-you-apply-metamagic-to-a-wished-spell) Crawford RAI they do.

Anyways, how did you plan to get a Wizard the AMF? If a Bladesinger/Fighter moves next to you, you are already dead. They can effortlessly deal more lethal damage in one turn. Though against other casters, they are better advised to engage at 600' in e.g. Planetar shape where there's little counterplay available.


Sorc 20 is strong on the back of Wish and metamagic. Maybe the 4th strongest class, behind Wizard, Bard and Arcana Cleric. Druid is kinda similar to Sorc; deficient access to level 9 spells but otherwise very strong.

See, power in Tier 4 is largely down to which 9th level spells you get (and select few from lower levels, most of which all these classes have). Few class features (most prominently Divine Intervention, Moon Wildshape, Metamagic, and Every Wizard Bull**** School) do make a difference, but it's largely the 9th level spells. They are strong enough that each 1/day is a high power character without ANY OTHER CLASS FEATURES.

The most important:

True Polymorph - Infinite Wraiths, invulnerability, superbuff allies, you name it, this does it. The only drawback is, you need minions to use this on. Personally it's anemic due to costing casting.

Shapechange - The largest expansion to character abilities in the game and the way to the largest numeric results. Does basically anything if you put your mind to it.

Wish - Comes with built-in Simulacrum, Contingency, Magic Jar, Find Greater Steed, Planar Binding, etc. If you can build Simulacrums the oldfashioned way or have a 9th level caster friend or "friend", also gives you among others resistance to all damage. That's pretty good.

Gate - The strongest assassination tool in the game. If you know the name of someone, you can basically make them appear wherever. Buff up, cast few Symbols and Glyphs of Warding, make it a private sanctum and summon target soon-to-be dead thing. Oh and the spell does a few other things too.


Those are generally the most important ones of which Sorc only has two lower priority ones. Sorc lacks access to Atropal toys for infinite Wraiths and free teleportation/magic circle/etc. This combined with worse primary ability score (the best information gathering spell in the game, Contact Other Plane, is Int-based) makes sorcerer a strategic cripple: their planar and spatial mobility, minionmancy, and information gathering are all C tier. If tasked with fighting a competent Wizard 17+, a Sorc would likely die before even knowing what their enemy is, let alone where they are or what they are doing.

True polymorph can't control the creatures, you can't minionmancy it.
Shapechange is a meh spell easily dispelled and lasts 1h only, concentration. It's meh.
Gate: requires creature true name. It's the big problem. totally useless against creature without a name or that doesn't reveal it or the caster doesn't know.
Wizard's minionmance is worst than you think. You are overrating it.

Wizard, Cleric, Bard or druid. It ins't a challenge. Stealth casting and 'immunity to int, wis and cha saves' is hard to defeat.

[Eldariel]

Sage Advice:
Can my sorcerer use Twinned Spell on a spell duplicated by the casting of a wish spell? And if so, how many sorcery points does it cost? Yes, you can. It costs the number of sorcery points appropriate for the level of the spell you’re duplicating.

Yes, that's apparently the RAI but strict RAW says no.

[Tana]

Yes, that's apparently the RAI but strict RAW says no.
The RAW is unclear, but The Sage Advice, well, advices.

[Eldariel]

True polymorph can't control the creatures, you can't minionmancy it.
Shapechange is a meh spell easily dispelled and lasts 1h only, concentration. It's meh.
Gate: requires creature true name. It's the big problem. totally useless against creature without a name or that doesn't reveal it or the caster doesn't know.
Wizard's minionmance is worst than you think. You are overrating it.

Wizard, Cleric, Bard or druid. It ins't a challenge. Stealth casting and 'immunity to int, wis and cha saves' is hard to defeat.

Gate requires name,not true name. Very different. And Shapechange is literally the best spell in the game. I recommend trying a 20th level adventure with a ban on all other spells; you literally don't need anything else. That should be convincing enough.

[Corey]

Sage Advice:
Can my sorcerer use Twinned Spell on a spell duplicated by the casting of a wish spell? And if so, how many sorcery points does it cost? Yes, you can. It costs the number of sorcery points appropriate for the level of the spell you’re duplicating.

Is this still about Twinning Wished Simulacrum? Are you assuming the only way to have a magical ally is to create/summon/whatever it at the beginning of combat? (If not, how can you compete with a Wizard or Bard who can make any number of copies with a little patience?)

Or, if you Twin Wished Simulacrum at the start of a fight, who do you envision the second Simulacrum being copied from?

[Tana]

Gate requires name,not true name. Very different. And Shapechange is literally the best spell in the game. I recommend trying a 20th level adventure with a ban on all other spells; you literally don't need anything else. That should be convincing enough.
Gate requires the creatures name, turning it into a situational a meh spell.
Shapechange isn't the best spell. It's a good.
You are overrating those spells.

[Tana]

Is this still about Twinning Wished Simulacrum? Are you assuming the only way to have a magical ally is to create/summon/whatever it at the beginning of combat? (If not, how can you compete with a Wizard or Bard who can make any number of copies with a little patience?)

Or, if you Twin Wished Simulacrum at the start of a fight, who do you envision the second Simulacrum being copied from?

The Sorcerer also can do it as Wizard and Bards do.
But It's obviously banned on every game or the insanity coffeelocking is autobanned.

Second creature, the scenarious wil choose it from.

[Corey]

The Sorcerer also can do it as Wizard and Bards do.
But It's obviously banned on every game or the insanity coffeelocking is autobanned.

Second creature, the scenarious wil choose it from.

Actually, Wizards and Bards can cast Simulacrum directly, while Sorcerers can only cast it through Wish.

I'm confused as to why you've both included Twinned Simulacrum in your build explanation and said the spell is always banned.

[Tana]

Actually, Wizards and Bards can cast Simulacrum directly, while Sorcerers can only cast it through Wish.

I'm confused as to why you've both included Twinned Simulacrum in your build explanation and said the spell is always banned.
The Sorcerer can create his own Wish Scroll, following Xanathar's rules. It will do as the Wizard and bard do, but twinned.
It doesnt matter:
Abusive mechanic loops likes coffeelocking and chain-simulacrum is always banned.

The build that I presented, doesn't fear direct fight, immunity to save or lose spells is really good and stealth casting is trully hard to defeat. The battle is over before the enemy starts the battle.

[Eldariel]

Gate requires the creatures name, turning it into a situational a meh spell.
Shapechange isn't the best spell. It's a good.
You are overrating those spells.

If you really hold that opinion, please present me with a problem you can't solve via Shapechange, but can solve otherwise.

[Tana]

If you really hold that opinion, please present me with a problem you can't solve via Shapechange, but can solve otherwise.

Subtle Dispel.

Antimagic Field lockdown.

Concentration spell right? Damage break it.

1/day.

My opinion, It's a good spell, but you are overrating it.

[Eldariel]

Subtle Dispel.

Antimagic Field lockdown.

Concentration spell right? Damage break it.

1/day.

My opinion, It's a good spell, but you are overrating it.

None of those is a scenario. They're easily preventable events that might occur in combat where you've ****ed up all your planning and opted to not use your information gathering, minionmancy, mobility, and/or ranged combat options.

Counter to Antimagic Field: don't let enemies get next to you/don't get next to enemies. You even have a Contingency to this end, not to mention the ability to be literally anywhere on a given plane in 12 seconds and the multiverse in 24 seconds, and the fastest mundane movement modes in the game (yes, all of them). If you let someone with AMF walk up to you or someone cast AMF next to you, that's your mistake.

Counter to dispel: True Polymorph something to a Hollyphant. Carry it around. Hollyphant projects Globe of Invulnerability. Dispel literally does nothing.

Counter to Concentration: well, you can't fail DC10 checks anyways. You should travel around in a form with Legendary Resistance when not fighting; that means you get to autosucceed 3 times in if you're rolling high checks (Chronurgist can do this in any form for DC30- checks as a reaction, and Diviner has a good shot too though). Further, you have plenty of ways to avoid actually taking significant high damage bombs, or make landing them far more difficult than against any other target, ranging from undetectability of various kinds to immunity to anything specific to ability to automake saves.


But those are just "things that won't happen unless you're subjecting yourself to substantial risk for no good reason". A scenario is more like "Oh no! Zariel's got my city trapped in Avernus! I better go rescue it!" or "Oh look, Klauth is up to no good again! How do I go about stopping its rampage?" or "Memo to self: Ashardalon is ****ing up multiverse next Tuesday. Please make it stop." or "Atropos visits soon, might wanna drive it away." or "Pandorym is being released by Obligatum XXX - maybe go to Mechanus and finally get this settled?" or "Gan'gaxx has Baldur's Gate stuck in a soul-sucking field. I might have to do something about it!" - in which cases Shapechange generally gives you better tools than its competitors. Which is why it's so insanely good. Especially since you can be in like ten crisis locations within 5 minutes and solving them shouldn't take you all that much longer.

[Kuulvheysoon]

But those are just "things that won't happen unless you're subjecting yourself to substantial risk for no good reason". A scenario is more like "Oh no! Zariel's got my city trapped in Avernus! I better go rescue it!" or "Oh look, Klauth is up to no good again! How do I go about stopping its rampage?" or "Memo to self: Ashardalon is ****ing up multiverse next Tuesday. Please make it stop." or "Atropos visits soon, might wanna drive it away." or "Pandorym is being released by Obligatum XXX - maybe go to Mechanus and finally get this settled?" or "Gan'gaxx has Baldur's Gate stuck in a soul-sucking field. I might have to do something about it!" - in which cases Shapechange generally gives you better tools than its competitors. Which is why it's so insanely good. Especially since you can be in like ten crisis locations within 5 minutes and solving them shouldn't take you all that much longer.

I'm not sure if I should be proud or not that I understood every one of those references.

[Rocini]

None of those is a scenario. They're easily preventable events that might occur in combat where you've ****ed up all your planning and opted to not use your information gathering, minionmancy, mobility, and/or ranged combat options.

Counter to Antimagic Field: don't let enemies get next to you/don't get next to enemies. You even have a Contingency to this end, not to mention the ability to be literally anywhere on a given plane in 12 seconds and the multiverse in 24 seconds, and the fastest mundane movement modes in the game (yes, all of them). If you let someone with AMF walk up to you or someone cast AMF next to you, that's your mistake.

Counter to dispel: True Polymorph something to a Hollyphant. Carry it around. Hollyphant projects Globe of Invulnerability. Dispel literally does nothing.

Counter to Concentration: well, you can't fail DC10 checks anyways. You should travel around in a form with Legendary Resistance when not fighting; that means you get to autosucceed 3 times in if you're rolling high checks (Chronurgist can do this in any form for DC30- checks as a reaction, and Diviner has a good shot too though). Further, you have plenty of ways to avoid actually taking significant high damage bombs, or make landing them far more difficult than against any other target, ranging from undetectability of various kinds to immunity to anything specific to ability to automake saves.


But those are just "things that won't happen unless you're subjecting yourself to substantial risk for no good reason". A scenario is more like "Oh no! Zariel's got my city trapped in Avernus! I better go rescue it!" or "Oh look, Klauth is up to no good again! How do I go about stopping its rampage?" or "Memo to self: Ashardalon is ****ing up multiverse next Tuesday. Please make it stop." or "Atropos visits soon, might wanna drive it away." or "Pandorym is being released by Obligatum XXX - maybe go to Mechanus and finally get this settled?" or "Gan'gaxx has Baldur's Gate stuck in a soul-sucking field. I might have to do something about it!" - in which cases Shapechange generally gives you better tools than its competitors. Which is why it's so insanely good. Especially since you can be in like ten crisis locations within 5 minutes and solving them shouldn't take you all that much longer.

You take a lot mistakes.

1) You can't scape antimagic field, because you simply is surprised . =). Subtle Dispel before engage and goodbye the contingency. (if you trigger it,certainly not).
"enemy is too generic, a fly is an enemy" :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

2) Counster Dispel?. Again. you are overrating True Polymorph:
You don't control that creature.

You can't minionmancy it, no Hollyphant or any true polymorph creatures avaiable for you.
It can't scape from Subtle Dispel.

3) Counter Concentration:
You are a bladesinger/fighter, not other wizards.
Multiple damage, you roll each.



Again. You are overrating it.

[Corey]

Which forms with legendary saves are you suggesting running around in?

[Eldariel]

You take a lot mistakes.

1) You can't scape antimagic field, because you simply is surprised . =). Subtle Dispel before engage and goodbye the contingency. (if you trigger it,certainly not).
"enemy is too generic, a fly is an enemy" :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Sorry, doesn't work.


2) Counster Dispel?. Again. you are overrating True Polymorph:
You don't control that creature.

You can't minionmancy it, no Hollyphant or any true polymorph creatures avaiable for you.
It can't scape from Subtle Dispel.

Simulacrum remains under your control even under the effect of True Polymorph. Alternatively, you can just disable it and port it around via e.g. Sequester or whatever.


3) Counter Concentration:
You are a bladesinger/fighter, not other wizards.
Multiple damage, you roll each.

Doesn't matter.


Also, you still fail to provide any substantial scenarios. These are just random "This might totally happen in a wish-land"-stuff that fails to account for the actual game where the victory and defeat is decided (the information battle before any encounter takes place). Which is what Wizard wins against most things of sub-deific status.


Which forms with legendary saves are you suggesting running around in?

Dragon forms are generally the safest. They come with solid Blindsight, lots of HP, decent AC, a good action disable in the breath, change shape and lots of movement modes + good speeds, etc. Some other interesting stuff exists too, such as Balhannoth (500' blindsight is the biggest selling point), Elder Brain (doesn't move that easily but has the creature detection abilities, solid Mindblast, Plane Shift, etc.), etc. but Dragons are generally the best all-rounders.

[Rocini]

Sorry, doesn't work.



Simulacrum remains under your control even under the effect of True Polymorph. Alternatively, you can just disable it and port it around via e.g. Sequester or whatever.



Doesn't matter.


Also, you still fail to provide any substantial scenarios. These are just random "This might totally happen in a wish-land"-stuff that fails to account for the actual game where the victory and defeat is decided (the information battle before any encounter takes place). Which is what Wizard wins against most things of sub-deific status.



Dragon forms are generally the safest. They come with solid Blindsight, lots of HP, decent AC, a good action disable in the breath, change shape and lots of movement modes + good speeds, etc. Some other interesting stuff exists too, such as Balhannoth (500' blindsight is the biggest selling point), Elder Brain (doesn't move that easily but has the creature detection abilities, solid Mindblast, Plane Shift, etc.), etc. but Dragons are generally the best all-rounders.



Simulacrum remains under your control even under the effect of True Polymorph. Alternatively, you can just disable it and port it around via e.g. Sequester or whatever.

You turn your Simulacrum into a Holyphant? It's pretty bad tatic.

No, true polymorph turns the Simulacrum in another creature, totally new. Any spell against it, Is It dead?
But, it's pretty bad.


Did you notice that Shapechange is only 1h once a day? You waste your level 9 spell for it?
That Distant Empowered Freezing Sphere can turn it into dust.
Doubled, because It's simulacrum?
It's double concentration check.
Elder Brain is countered by nondetection or mind blank and blindsight doesn't reveal the target, it still can be hidden by RAW.
It doesn't fly, What about Empowered Subtle Meteor Swarm + Simulacrum's Subtlee Horrid Wilding? You lose you concentration and your 'Simulacrrum Holyphant is dead'. And you are dead.

You are overrating it. Best spell to turn you into Elder Brain and Balhannoth for 1 h? concentration and a level 9 spell.
It's meh speell.

[Corey]

You turn your Simulacrum into a Holyphant? It's pretty bad tatic.

No, true polymorph turns the Simulacrum in another creature, totally new. Any spell against it, Is It dead?
But, it's pretty bad.


Did you notice that Shapechange is only 1h once a day? You waste your level 9 spell for it?
That Distant Empowered Freezing Sphere can turn it into dust.
Doubled, because It's simulacrum?
It's double concentration check.
Elder Brain is countered by nondetection or mind blank and blindsight doesn't reveal the target, it still can be hidden by RAW.
It doesn't fly, What about Empowered Subtle Meteor Swarm + Simulacrum's Subtlee Horrid Wilding? You lose you concentration and your 'Simulacrrum Holyphant is dead'. And you are dead.

You are overrating it. Best spell to turn you into Elder Brain and Balhannoth for 1 h? concentration and a level 9 spell.
It's meh speell.

Did Simulacrum just get unbanned again? I'm having trouble keeping up.

Also, the idea that you can only have allies you perfectly control is odd. If you True Polymorph a nightstand into a Hollyphant, there's a pretty good chance it will like you.

Planar Binding a Hollyphant might get around the problem anyway, and without ever using a 9th Level spell slot, although I'm not sure one can do that to a Hollyphant in the first place.

[Rocini]

Did Simulacrum just get unbanned again? I'm having trouble keeping up.

Also, the idea that you can only have allies you perfectly control is odd. If you True Polymorph a nightstand into a Hollyphant, there's a pretty good chance it will like you.

Planar Binding a Hollyphant might get around the problem anyway, and without ever using a 9th Level spell slot, although I'm not sure one can do that to a Hollyphant in the first place.
Casting Spell an offensive Spell to force a creature to be controlled. 😈

Read Planar Binding and you will see about
"Hostiliy" they Will Twist your command.
They Will certainly betray you.

Wizard minionmancy is overrated.

The Sorcerer doesnt need defeat the Wizard, his "Minions" Will defeat him.


Again, you are overrating those spells.

[Corey]

Read Planar Binding and you will see about
"Hostiliy" they Will Twist your command.
They Will certainly betray you.


On what basis do you claim with certainty that a Hollyphant would be hostile to a good character?

[Rocini]

On what basis do you claim with certainty that a Hollyphant would be hostile to a good character?
If you cast a Spell against him, forcing It to be controlled. Im sure.

5e minionmancy is overrated.

[Corey]

If you cast a Spell against him, forcing It to be controlled. Im sure.

5e minionmancy is overrated.

So you believe the text of the spell is written incorrectly?

(I refer to the "if the creature is hostile ..." part; you seem to think that the hostility is a certainty, and that the spell would be more correctly described if it used language that says so, as some other minion spells do.)

[Rocini]

So you believe the text of the spell is written incorrectly?

(I refer to the "if the creature is hostile ..." part; you seem to think that the hostility is a certainty, and that the spell would be more correctly described if it used language that says so, as some other minion spells do.)
You are forcing a creature to be controlled casting Spell against that creature, they Will Love you ❤️
Well, good Lucky, the Sorcerer watches the Wizard killing himself. 🤣
#grab popcorn.

[Corey]

You are forcing a creature to be controlled casting Spell against that creature, they Will Love you ❤️
Well, good Lucky, the Sorcerer watches the Wizard killing himself. 🤣
#grab popcorn.

So, just to be clear, I'll ask again: Do you believe the RAW are incorrect?

[Rocini]

So, just to be clear, I'll ask again: Do you believe the RAW are incorrect?
?

If you convice your DM that is magically forced to follow your command, casting a spell against that creature won't be hostile. Ok, but I will be hard

[Corey]

?

If you convice your DM that is magically forced to follow your command, casting a spell against that creature won't be hostile. Ok, but I will be hard

In fairness, if we accept your bizarre theory that all creatures will be hostile even if not compelled in any way, then saying the creature will be hostile if bound is really just a special case of that.

[Rocini]

In fairness, if we accept your bizarre theory that all creatures will be hostile even if not compelled in any way, then saying the creature will be hostile if bound is really just a special case of that.
Bizarre?
Wait, you are casting a controlling spell against a creature, forcing it to follow your command and don't you want hostility?
That's what's bizarre.

Without planar binding, you can't control it, they don't need follow you, fight for you or protect you.

Again, Wizard's minionmancy is overrated.
And this Sorcerer just defeat bladesinger/fighter very easily.

[Captain Panda]

You take a lot mistakes.


2) Counster Dispel?. Again. you are overrating True Polymorph:
You don't control that creature.



Technically true, but functionally incorrect in context. True Poly isn't to bind something to your will, it's the adjust the stat block of something already bound to your will. You don't lose control over something planar bound just because it changes stats, nothing in the spell says that True Poly removes status effects.

I do think shapechange is being overrated in this thread, but true poly is being underrated. That said, hollyphants are probably not an option most DMs would allow simply because they aren't from one of the "monster books," but one of the adventures. I wouldn't try to push a DM on that, there are plenty of great options without trying to overreach.



Again, Wizard's minionmancy is overrated.


Absolutely false.

Even if we assume the creatures have hostile intent (which, depending on the spells used to gain control over something, can be a very dubious read of the rules), they have to follow direct orders. If they are planar bound for a length of time, make a list of things they can't do, and make one of the things on the list intentional attempts to subvert the intent of orders. If something literally has to obey you, and you have time to make it read over a list of rules that it literally cannot break, I do not see this as a realistic downside for a properly prepared wizard. A level 17+ wizard is supposed to be the epitome of forethought, if he gets outwitted by a planar bound mook, and I mean genuinely outwitted, that's probably the fault of the player.

Edit: Wait, I'm replying to a banned guy. Is this the sorcerer king dude from back in the day? XD

[Eldariel]

Technically true, but functionally incorrect in context. True Poly isn't to bind something to your will, it's the adjust the stat block of something already bound to your will. You don't lose control over something planar bound just because it changes stats, nothing in the spell says that True Poly removes status effects.

I do think shapechange is being overrated in this thread, but true poly is being underrated. That said, hollyphants are probably not an option most DMs would allow simply because they aren't from one of the "monster books," but one of the adventures. I wouldn't try to push a DM on that, there are plenty of great options without trying to overreach.

The point wrt Hollyphant was that it's possible to even make Dispel completely impotent (there are other ways such as magic items, Contingency, etc. but it's the easiest). That said, I don't think Shapechange can really be overrated. It's an insane spell that's almost as game-changing as True Polymorph and Simulacrum in downtime, but also incredibly potent as an adventuring tool; having your pick of any CR up-to-20 form for whatever you need and especially the ability to change from form to form as an action is just incredible. I think Shapechange is without doubt Top 3 spell in the game. Which of Wish/True Polymorph/Shapechange/Simulacrum is the best is kinda up there.

And there are plenty of ways to deal with control issues of course; you can Animate Dead a Zombie, Sequester it, True Polymorph it into a pebble and once that's permanent, True Polymorph it into any aura creature of up to CR9 you want. You can do similar things with Geas and Planar Binding of course, and any spell you might need really. You can also True Polymorph object into creature and then Dominate said creature and go from there.

[Corey]

Edit: Wait, I'm replying to a banned guy. Is this the sorcerer king dude from back in the day? XD

No opinion on the question, as I wasn't here in that particular day, or else didn't notice.

But I did notice him using two different screennames in this thread, both of which are now banned.

Given that he's banned, I'll say that his thoughts on the defensive side of his build were pretty interesting. And his Fireball burst ideas go onto the checklist of things other builds need to be comfortable defending against.

[Vafos]

The point wrt Hollyphant was that it's possible to even make Dispel completely impotent (there are other ways such as magic items, Contingency, etc. but it's the easiest). That said, I don't think Shapechange can really be overrated. It's an insane spell that's almost as game-changing as True Polymorph and Simulacrum in downtime, but also incredibly potent as an adventuring tool; having your pick of any CR up-to-20 form for whatever you need and especially the ability to change from form to form as an action is just incredible. I think Shapechange is without doubt Top 3 spell in the game. Which of Wish/True Polymorph/Shapechange/Simulacrum is the best is kinda up there.

And there are plenty of ways to deal with control issues of course; you can Animate Dead a Zombie, Sequester it, True Polymorph it into a pebble and once that's permanent, True Polymorph it into any aura creature of up to CR9 you want. You can do similar things with Geas and Planar Binding of course, and any spell you might need really. You can also True Polymorph object into creature and then Dominate said creature and go from there.
Again, Shapechange is a pretty meh spell.

"And there are plenty of ways to deal with control issues of course; you can Animate Dead a Zombie, Sequester it, True Polymorph it into a pebble and once that's permanent, True Polymorph it into any aura creature of up to CR9 you want. You can do similar things with Geas and Planar Binding of course, and any spell you might need really. You can also True Polymorph object into creature and then Dominate said creature and go from there."


It doesn't work, when you turn a zombie into another creature or object, you can't resset control that creature, It's another creature, not the animated one. Also, casting the same spell doesn't accumulate. The Spell is permanent, so the spell is working, true polymorph again doesn't acumulate effects.
"The Effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine"

"True Polymorph".
If the spell becomes permanent, you no longer control the creature.


Also Geas doesn't work. Charmed creature is still hostile if force control it and cast spells against it. They just can't attack you. They will twist your commands, betraying you or they will kill himself with geas damage. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:


Again,
5e Wizard is overrated, It depends exclusively to a pretty lenient DM to rule on his favor.
This Sorcerer build just smash this Bladesinger/Fighter.

[Eldariel]

Again, Shapechange is a pretty meh spell.

I presented a question on this topic on an earlier page. If you truly believe this, please present me with a scenario where Shapechange alone isn't better than basically the whole rest of the class. If this can't be done, then I would wager a guess that Shapechange is indeed pretty darn good.

[Vafos]

I presented a question on this topic on an earlier page. If you truly believe this, please present me with a scenario where Shapechange alone isn't better than basically the whole rest of the class. If this can't be done, then I would wager a guess that Shapechange is indeed pretty darn good.
It's strong itself.
But, concentration, dispel vulnerability, can be counterspelled, antimagic field vulnerability and 1h duration only and It waste your highest spell slot, it's an action, the average enemy just teleport out and your 9th spell is over.
If you remove your enemies and his counterplays, It's broken.

[Eldariel]

It's strong itself.
But, concentration, dispel vulnerability, can be counterspelled, antimagic field vulnerability and 1h duration only and It waste your highest spell slot, it's an action, the average enemy just teleport out and your 9th spell is over.
If you remove your enemies and his counterplays, It's broken.

Uhm, you can just Teleport anywhere with the spell. Like Shapechange lasts an hour and you can Teleport Without Error (unlike anyone else).

[Vafos]

Uhm, you can just Teleport anywhere with the spell. Like Shapechange lasts an hour and you can Teleport Without Error (unlike anyone else).
You don't know the enemy teleport location. I have sure.
You waste your highest spell slot for nothing, if it doens't broken your concentration, dispel it, or just counterspell it. Anyway. It's just an average enemy.
Long range effects just defeat the Shapechanger pretty easily.

In theory, it's broken, but it has a lot of counterplays.

[Eldariel]

You don't know the enemy teleport location. I have sure.
You waste your highest spell slot for nothing, if it doens't broken your concentration, dispel it, or just counterspell it. Anyway. It's just an average enemy.
Long range effects just defeat the Shapechanger pretty easily.

In theory, it's broken, but it has a lot of counterplays.

If I'm looking for an artifact or trying to save someone or gain control of a temple or whatever, that doesn't really matter. This is why the scenario matters. The closer to real play you get, the better Shapechange gets. It makes the Schrödinger's Wizard reality: I actually have any ability I might need at all times for two hours.

Hunting someone down is of course not that hard either: just summon and Bind an Invisible Stalker and I have perfect information of target location at all times regardless of where you Teleport and what protections you have. Then I can just perfectly Teleport while any Teleport the quarry takes is likely to get them lost in a random dangerous place or even seriously damaged. The hunted will run out of teleports in a couple of castings while you can go all day. Of course, this is only if you even let them know you're coming; it's possible to be very difficult to notice while teleporting as long as you don't get too close with the Teleport itself.

[Vafos]

If I'm looking for an artifact or trying to save someone or gain control of a temple or whatever, that doesn't really matter. This is why the scenario matters. The closer to real play you get, the better Shapechange gets. It makes the Schrödinger's Wizard reality: I actually have any ability I might need at all times for two hours.

Hunting someone down is of course not that hard either: just summon and Bind an Invisible Stalker and I have perfect information of target location at all times regardless of where you Teleport and what protections you have. Then I can just perfectly Teleport while any Teleport the quarry takes is likely to get them lost in a random dangerous place or even seriously damaged. The hunted will run out of teleports in a couple of castings while you can go all day. Of course, this is only if you even let them know you're coming; it's possible to be very difficult to notice while teleporting as long as you don't get too close with the Teleport itself.

First, you need know your enemy. It will not happen 90% of time.

Also, you cannot choose Invisible Stalker, the DM chooses. Your Elemental is a Fail Snail. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Again, you are overrating the Wizard 5e.

[Eldariel]

First, you need know your enemy. It will not happen 90% of time.
Also, you can't choose Invisible Stalker, the DM chooses.

Again, you are overrating the Wizard 5e.

"Conjure Elemental" from a level 6 slot can summon Invisible Stalker, which explicitly says "The stalker is given a quarry by its summoner. The stalker knows the direction and distance to its quarry as long as the two of them are on the same plane of existence. The stalker also knows the location of its summoner."

Why would I even try to hunt a random dude I don't care about? And why would that random dude care about me? If there's no conflict, the Wizard doesn't care about this hypothetical Sorc at all and if there's a conflict, they have all the tools in the world to gain information, hunt the target down and kill them for good without giving them a chance to fight back.

[Vafos]

"Conjure Elemental" from a level 6 slot can summon Invisible Stalker, which explicitly says "The stalker is given a quarry by its summoner. The stalker knows the direction and distance to its quarry as long as the two of them are on the same plane of existence. The stalker also knows the location of its summoner."

Why would I even try to hunt a random dude I don't care about? And why would that random dude care about me? If there's no conflict, the Wizard doesn't care about this hypothetical Sorc at all and if there's a conflict, they have all the tools in the world to gain information, hunt the target down and kill them for good without giving them a chance to fight back.
I strongly disagree.
Sage Advice compedium:
The DM chooses the CR and the creature.

You can't chooses Invisibile Stalker. The DM chooses. It's a Snail Fail.

Conjure Elemental, Conjure Animals, Conjure Celestial. It's certainly overrated.



It's clear to me that you've never played at high levels and that you're overestimating Wizard.

[Eldariel]

I strongly disagree.
Sage Advice compedium:
The DM chooses the CR and the creature.

You can't chooses Invisibile Stalker. The DM chooses. It's a Snail Fail.

Conjure Elemental, Conjure Animals, Conjure Celestial. It's certainly overrated.

If your DM doesn't go sideways trying to **** you over, they'll give you a creature of the CR given. If you pick an area of air and cast it off 6th level slot, there are no options but Invisible Stalker. So...it's pretty reliable. I also don't get where you're getting this "It's clear you've never played on this level"-stuff. I haven't played on this level because I assume a functional relationship between the DM and the PC? Isn't that the opposite of what that implies?

[Vafos]

If your DM doesn't go sideways trying to **** you over, they'll give you a creature of the CR given. If you pick an area of air and cast it off 6th level slot, there are no options but Invisible Stalker. So...it's pretty reliable. I also don't get where you're getting this "It's clear you've never played on this level"-stuff. I haven't played on this level because I assume a functional relationship between the DM and the PC? Isn't that the opposite of what that implies?

No, It's CR 6 or lower. You don't choose the CR or the Creature. They hello to your new Mephit pet. :smallbiggrin:

Again, It's overrated. It depends exclusively to a lenient DM ruling on his favor. :belkar:

[Kuulvheysoon]

No, It's CR 6 or lower. You don't choose the CR or the Creature. They hello to your Dust Mephist.

That's called being a terrible DM. There's a difference between DM's Choice and deliberately screwing over your players. Your assumption lies closer to the latter.

[Vafos]

That's called being a terrible DM. There's a difference between DM's Choice and deliberately screwing over your players. Your assumption lies closer to the latter.

DM lenience, It's a standard air elemental, Invisibile stalker is too rare and specific.

That why, all of your "tatics" are overrated.

Nothing you've talked about so far works as you imagined.


The second one, you simply don't know your enemy 90% of time. It's usueless against who you don't know.

OVERRATED.

[Eldariel]

No, It's CR 6 or lower. You don't choose the CR or the Creature. They hello to your Dust Mephist.

Like I said, that would be a DM I wouldn't play with for long. It seems fairly obvious that the clause on the CR being "X or lower" only exists because there types where no creatures exist for all CRs and thus the spell would result in "nil" without the clause. Obviously upcasting the spell should have a benefit - the baseline in a reasonable game ought to be that level 5 casting gets you a CR 5 creature and a level 6 casting gets you a CR 6 creature and so on. If that is not the case, well, just cast stuff like Summon Greater Demon instead where you pick the creature.

If Sorcerer being the better option relies on a DM who tries to intentionally mess up players, that's basically just Sorc only being good in a game that nobody plays. Which isn't very convincing.

[Vafos]

Like I said, that would be a DM I wouldn't play with for long. It seems fairly obvious that the clause on the CR being "X or lower" only exists because there types where no creatures exist for all CRs and thus the spell would result in "nil" without the clause. Obviously upcasting the spell should have a benefit - the baseline in a reasonable game ought to be that level 5 casting gets you a CR 5 creature and a level 6 casting gets you a CR 6 creature and so on. If that is not the case, well, just cast stuff like Summon Greater Demon instead where you pick the creature.

If Sorcerer being the better option relies on a DM who tries to intentionally mess up players, that's basically just Sorc only being good in a game that nobody plays. Which isn't very convincing.

We know, thoses spells are overrated and broken if the DM allows. It's conjure animals, conjure celestil, conjure woodland. But, an experienced DM knows what.
You never will reach high level with wizard overrating it, play a serious table and you will see how weak is it on real games.
DM leniance.
You need arguing enough to call a specific invisible stalker instead standard Air Elementl or Mephit that is very common creature on Air Elemental Plane. It allows a quarry that you don't know nothing about.

[Corey]

If your DM doesn't go sideways trying to **** you over, they'll give you a creature of the CR given. If you pick an area of air and cast it off 6th level slot, there are no options but Invisible Stalker. So...it's pretty reliable. I also don't get where you're getting this "It's clear you've never played on this level"-stuff. I haven't played on this level because I assume a functional relationship between the DM and the PC? Isn't that the opposite of what that implies?

Perhaps he means that you haven't played with the particular DMs he has. ;)

[Eldariel]

We know, thoses spells are overrated and broken if the DM allows. It's conjure animals, conjure celestil, conjure woodland. But, an experienced DM knows what.
You never will reach high level with wizard overrating it, play a serious table and you will see how weak is it on real games.
DM leniance.
You need arguing enough to call a specific invisible stalker instead standard Air Elementl or Mephit that very common creature on Air Elemental Plane.

"Serious table", "real games", "DM leniance", creature frequencies based on...what? It feels like this post basically without substance, an attempt to...make me feel like my tables are not real? Or something. All of that to perhaps conceal the lack of actual arguments. So we can probably conclude that yes, Wizard is indeed the superior class on this level based on the discussion for the purposes of games that take place (i.e. occur in tables where the DM actually changes or nerfs abilities if they are overpowered instead of making them arbitrarily not function).


Perhaps he means that you haven't played with the particular DMs he has. ;)

Not gonna lie, that sounds pretty rough. Luckily there is always online playing or DMing oneself.

[Vafos]

Perhaps he means that you haven't played with the particular DMs he has. ;)

As I'm arguing, Wizard is overrated. Only works with a too lenient DM. But, It won't happen on real tables.

Rules now: You can't chooses the elemental or the CR. It's over. :smallbiggrin: And Still you don't know the quarry. It doesn't work.

[JNAProductions]

Perhaps he means that you haven't played with the particular DMs he has. ;)

Speaking as a perennial DM here, my general rule when using Conjure Elemental or anything of the sort is to ask the player what they want to summon. If it's reasonable (and at level 20, an Invisible Stalker is pretty reasonable) I'll give that to them.
If the request is NOT reasonable, I'll work with them to find a close match. For instance, if they want to summon 32 CR 1/4th animals with a 9th-level Conjure Animals, I'll ask them to make a different selection because that's just too many creatures to handle well-in combat, at least. If they just want to summon 32 wolves and set them loose to cause panic, that's fine!

[Vafos]

Speaking as a perennial DM here, my general rule when using Conjure Elemental or anything of the sort is to ask the player what they want to summon. If it's reasonable (and at level 20, an Invisible Stalker is pretty reasonable) I'll give that to them.
If the request is NOT reasonable, I'll work with them to find a close match. For instance, if they want to summon 32 CR 1/4th animals with a 9th-level Conjure Animals, I'll ask them to make a different selection because that's just too many creatures to handle well-in combat, at least. If they just want to summon 32 wolves and set them loose to cause panic, that's fine!

JNAProduction, hello again. you are very suspicious as always. haha :smallsmile:

[Kuulvheysoon]

JNAProduction, hello again. you are very suspicious as always. haha :smallsmile:

I think that you misspelled reasonable there, friend.

[noob]

Basically there is a discussion on this thread which is whenever a summon spell summons a CR 1/4 orcus that instantly kills you or not.
The rules and the sage advice seems to support the summon CR 1/4 orcus that instantly kills you theory.

[Vafos]

Rules:
You can't choose the CR and the creature.
You also can't given a quarry against a creature that It doesn't know nothing about.

It failed.
It's just an average enemy.

[Vafos]

Basically there is a discussion on this thread which is whenever a summon spell summons a CR 1/4 orcus that instantly kills you or not.
He is super overrating and absolutely all that he thought doesn't work as descripted.

[noob]

They are super overrating and absolutely all that It thought doesn't work as they think.

Hence why there is the question: if a summoner summons something can the gm choose it to be a CR 1/4 orcus that kills the summoner instantly.
The rules says "Yes!" The sage advice too.
The only people disagreeing are people playing the game that do not want to die from orcus.
I say "hail the rudisplorkers of orcus".

[Vafos]

Hence why there is the question: if a summoner summons something can the gm choose it to be a CR 1/4 orcus that kills the summoner instantly.
The rules says "Yes!" The sage advice too.
The only people disagreeing are people playing the game.
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbi ggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Vafos]

What I find funny is the extent of the hypocrisy of these people.

When I did a much, much stronger combo involving Conjure Celestial, summoning Coualt.
People said:
you can't choose Coault!
DM fiat, DM lenience
You never played this game.

Hypocrisy.

Only now, on the contrary. hahaa
I will show you how make a minionmancy works, As Sorcerer, obviously.

[Eldariel]

What I find funny is the extent of the hypocrisy of these people.

When I did a much, much stronger combo involving Conjure Celestial, summoning Coualt.

*shrug* I certainly would just call the spell "summon Couatl". Hell, it basically has no other alternatives (again, a DM who gives you a Pegasus is messing with you and you aren't compelled to play with it). It can even summon Hollyphant off a level 9 slot. The people with whom you had this unfortunate experience are probably different people who fall back on the same "This spell doesn't work"-fallacy. This is the wrong tree.

[Vafos]

*shrug* I certainly would just call the spell "summon Couatl". Hell, it basically has no other alternatives (again, a DM who gives you a Pegasus is messing with you and you aren't compelled to play with it). It can even summon Hollyphant off a level 9 slot. The people with whom you had this unfortunate experience are probably different people who fall back on the same "This spell doesn't work"-fallacy. This is the wrong tree.
cr 4 or lower.
The combo planar ally spell also is still better. It can call Demon Lords.
But, the DM chooses, not me.
It can also chooses Invisible Stalker.
But, the DM chooses.

If you agreed that you can choose, the divine soul sorcerer is the king here, again.

[Eldariel]

cr 4 or lower.
The combo planar ally spell also is still better. It can call Demon Lords.
But, the DM chooses, not me.
It can also chooses Invisible Stalker.
But, the DM chooses.

If you agreed that you can choose, the divine soul sorcerer is the king here, again.

Planar Ally is different. It has no selection on player part and the creature works independently; there's no binding mechanism. It even explicitly takes XP, and obviously costs an arbitrary price. However, conjure spells pretty much only work reasonably if they get max CR thing as intended; otherwise the game gets effed (they also explicitly maintain control unlike Planar Ally). Also, nobody cares about "sorcerer kings" except in Dark Sun (where they aren't even Sorcerers). Sorcerer is sorcerer; Divine Soul is solid as are the new subclasses but they are weaker than Wizard when you pull out all the stops.

[Vafos]

Planar Ally is different. It has no selection on player part and the creature works independently; there's no binding mechanism. However, conjure spells pretty much only work reasonably if they get max CR thing as intended; otherwise the game gets effed. Also, nobody cares about "sorcerer kings". Sorcerer is sorcerer.
Planar Binding it.
Conjure Celestial, Planar Ally.
All spells the DM chooses.


Are you sure that you can compete against it


Rules again:
You can't choose the CR or the creature and can't given a quarry against a creature that you don't know nothing about it.
It failed.

[Eldariel]

Planar Binding it.

Planar Binding takes 1 hour. You need a control clause for it to work. Planar Ally lacks it. You also don't get to choose where Planar Ally appears. And I find it unlikely that the deity or whatever would be particularly happy with sending you help if you somehow succeed in Binding them and overriding the clause they appear by. Overall, that sounds like an all-around terrible plan...

[Vafos]

Planar Binding takes 1 hour. You need a control clause for it to work. Planar Ally lacks it.
Not for Wished Twinned Planar Binding.
You can bind two creatures for 1 year and a day, with 0 cost.

Have you sure that you can compete against it?
Unfortunelly it doesn't work, because the DM chooses the creature.
The Sorcerer will do better. Just accept it.

[JNAProductions]

Not for Wished Twinned Planar Binding.
You can bind two creatures for 1 year and a day, with 0 cost.

Have you sure that you can compete against it?
Unfortunelly it doesn't work, because the DM chooses the creature.
The Sorcerer will do better. Just accept it.

You can't cast a 9th level spell out of Wish safely.

And the Wizard has Wish too. So... Not sure what you're accomplishing here.

Yes, the DM chooses the creature. That equally applies to your spells too.

[Eldariel]

Not for Wished Twinned Planar Binding.
You can bind two creatures for 1 year and a day, with 0 cost.

So...what exactly is your plan? Cast Planar Ally, get your deity to send you something, then bind it? I'm pretty sure you might get into trouble with said deity pretty quickly...

[Vafos]

You can't cast a 9th level spell out of Wish safely.

And the Wizard has Wish too. So... Not sure what you're accomplishing here.

Yes, the DM chooses the creature. That equally applies to your spells too.

Planar ally is spell avaiable for the Sorcerer + Wished Twinned Planar Binding. It can also cast Planar Ally and Planar Binding serveral times.

The best the wizard can do is casting a standard planar aly once a day wasting wish, wasting 1.000 gp per casting, once.


The Sorcerer is 6x better, with double duration.

[Vafos]

So...what exactly is your plan? Cast Planar Ally, get your deity to send you something, then bind it? I'm pretty sure you might get into trouble with said deity pretty quickly...
Not for lawful evil deity that loves tiranny.

Sorry, minionmancy, the sorcerer wins by a large margin.

[JNAProductions]

Planar ally is spell avaiable for the Sorcerer + Wished Twinned Planar Binding. It can also cast Planar Ally and Planar Binding serveral times.

The best the wizard can do is casting a standard planar aly once a day, wasting 1.000 gp per casting, once.

The Sorcerer is 6x better, with double duration.

Well, when the DM sends you nothing but Pegasi, it won't be very useful. :P

Edit: Oh, fiends?

You get Lemures. Enjoy! :P

[Vafos]

Well, when the DM sends you nothing but Pegasi, it won't be very useful. :P

Edit: Oh, fiends?

You get Lemures. Enjoy! :P


ahahahahaha, the game turned right?
look at the hypocrisy.

I love Hypocrisy.

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbi ggrin:

[Eldariel]

Not for lawful evil deity that loves tiranny.

Sorry, minionmancy, the sorcerer wins by a large margin.

Lawful Evil deity loves to be the tyrant, not have their underlings take their stuff without permission. I'm pretty sure Asmodeus would make you regret ever existing if you tried to Planar Ally their trusted toys and then binding them.

[Vafos]

As I just demonstrated,
You are overrating your Wizard. Nothing so far really works as you imagined.
Ahahahaha

[JNAProductions]

ahahahahaha, the game turned right?
look at the hypocrisy.

I love Hypocrisy.

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbi ggrin:

It's consistency. Either we follow what most DMs do, and give the PCs what they want in most situations... Or we follow your rules, in which case the DM actively screws you over and gives you jack all.

Except with the Conjure spells, it's more under your control-YOU are summoning them. Planar Ally is explicitly beseeching someone else for aid. The DM has a lot more leeway to screw you over, or at least not give you the perfect tool, with that spell.

[Vafos]

Well, when the DM sends you nothing but Pegasi, it won't be very useful. :P

Edit: Oh, fiends?

You get Lemures. Enjoy! :P


Thanks!! EXACTLY!!!

Now we have a Lemure and a Mephit ( Wizard's Conjure Elemental).
And I wins the argumentation.
Why, force them to hypocrisy and the DM chooses, wins, again.
Ahahaha


The Sorcerer presented smashes pretty easily Bladesinger/fighter.

Ok.
I have to go now.

[Eldariel]

The Sorcerer presented smashes pretty easily Bladesinger/fighter.

Okay, when did you present how that actually happens? All you said is that your dude walks up to someone whose location they don't know somehow while they're teleporting around the multiverse and casts prep spells and then prays they fail saves. Or waits for someone to walk up to them and die and pray they could cast Antimagic Field dead.

These arguments include nothing about how they actually fare in adventures or scenarios or whatever. This game isn't PvP - that's at most an interesting curiosity that's mostly fairly irrelevant to how strong a character actually is. So even if you proved that (which will obviously never happen since the presented character has no means to hunt the other down or gather information on them or whatever), it would be largely irrelevant to character power.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: This thread has become a banned poster magnet. Please don't engage with, reply to, or glorify returned banned posters. Post anyone suspected of being a banned poster and let us handle it.