Spending Hit Dice to increase a d20 roll

[Osuniev]

I've been toying a lot with using Hit Dice in my games (disclaimer : I play Gritty Realism, so they DO matter much more than in most published campaigns), because I feel like they are an underused mechanic.

So far, my favourite houserule is potions that can be consumed during a short rest, and turn hit dice into spell slot (1 Hit Dice = Lvl 1 slot; 2 HD= lvl 2 slot, etc... They are rare but useful for my casters in the rare cases where an "adventuring week" last more than 3 or 4 days, so they don't run out of spell slots too fast).

But the idea has come up to use them to IMPROVE a dice roll, representing an EXTREME effort put in the thing, and some fatigue (represented by the loss of the HD) afterward.

The rule at the moment :

After rolling a Strength or Constitution Check (not a save), you may spend one Hit Dice and add the result to your roll.


Intended effect :
- giving martial classes some way to spend ressources to contribute in non-combat situations : the door need bashing ? The Barbarian IS the best person for the job. Spellcasters have smaller hit dice, but OTOH can already use spell slots.
- giving some way of mitigating bad rolls whilst still maintaining some cost
- giving interesting trade offs for long adventuring days (or threedays in GR) where you can choose to go all in but might regret it later


I'm wondering if :
- this creates too much imbalance (obviously it DOES change some stuff. It's quite a boost to Grappling builds, for example)
- this could/should be extended to Dexterity checks, or even saves (probably not).

[Amnestic]

I wouldn't extend it to saves but I do think that having it just apply to str/con and not other ability checks feels iffy. Could extend it to all of them and then specifically exclude initiative.

[Townopolis]

I've been toying with a more extreme version of this for a while (martials (not rogues) can HD attacks and push/shove/grapple, rogues can HD proficient ability checks, and everyone can HD saves), but have yet to actually try it.

Someone should try something like this, though, and tell me how it goes.

You might just have it apply to any proficient check. This might be too big a buff to bards, though, depending on how well that class does at your table. I know not everyone has the same experience (i.e. not everyone finds bards unreasonably strong).

[Frogreaver]

I've been toying a lot with using Hit Dice in my games (disclaimer : I play Gritty Realism, so they DO matter much more than in most published campaigns), because I feel like they are an underused mechanic.

So far, my favourite houserule is potions that can be consumed during a short rest, and turn hit dice into spell slot (1 Hit Dice = Lvl 1 slot; 2 HD= lvl 2 slot, etc... They are rare but useful for my casters in the rare cases where an "adventuring week" last more than 3 or 4 days, so they don't run out of spell slots too fast).

But the idea has come up to use them to IMPROVE a dice roll, representing an EXTREME effort put in the thing, and some fatigue (represented by the loss of the HD) afterward.

The rule at the moment :

After rolling a Strength or Constitution Check (not a save), you may spend one Hit Dice and add the result to your roll.


Intended effect :
- giving martial classes some way to spend ressources to contribute in non-combat situations : the door need bashing ? The Barbarian IS the best person for the job. Spellcasters have smaller hit dice, but OTOH can already use spell slots.
- giving some way of mitigating bad rolls whilst still maintaining some cost
- giving interesting trade offs for long adventuring days (or threedays in GR) where you can choose to go all in but might regret it later


I'm wondering if :
- this creates too much imbalance (obviously it DOES change some stuff. It's quite a boost to Grappling builds, for example)
- this could/should be extended to Dexterity checks, or even saves (probably not).

I love the basic idea. I think the cost of hit dice works but IÂ’d have a hard limit. the limit would be stat modifier times per day for each stat. Classes that start without spell casting get an additional use or 2 per day on top of that.

[Pex]

Spending HD on stuff other than healing is an intriguing idea, but if you are to do it you need another house rule*: You get back all HD spent on a long rest. Otherwise it becomes a diminishing returns, and no one has HD to do anything. It also puts a strain on healing resources since PCs aren't healing themselves as often. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but to avoid relegating a PC with healing spells as the Healbot perhaps be a bit more generous with healing potions of all strengths. Also be careful in when you call for a die roll. A ST check to bash a door down during combat matters because of action economy. When it's out of combat and the PCs have all the time in the world no roll is necessary if the door can be bashed so the PC does not need to spend a HD. If it's out of combat but the players care how long it takes, then perhaps call for a roll. The door will always be bashed, even on a Natural 1, but the higher the final result the faster it takes.

*Personally I use this house for HD as the game already is. Every DM I played with have used it, many not even knowing it's a house rule. I'm not sure the players know you are only supposed to get back half your HD spent on a long rest. I have found it doesn't break the game.

[Osuniev]

I love the basic idea. I think the cost of hit dice works but IÂ’d have a hard limit. the limit would be stat modifier times per day for each stat. Classes that start without spell casting get an additional use or 2 per day on top of that.

Why ? The hard limit is already baked in the game : at some point you run out of Hit Dice.

[False God]

I like the idea overall, reminds me of WoD, which I also like.

I don't think I'd let spellcasters recover spell slots with it though.

[Osuniev]

I don't think I'd let spellcasters recover spell slots with it though.

The recovery of spell slots is a different thing entirely, and is supposed to go hand in hand with Gritty Realism. Since SR are 8hours and LR are 7 days, a "normal" adventuring day in my campaigns is usually 6 encounters, spread over 3 to 5 days. I find it much easier to maintain verisimilitude in any scenario that isn't a dungeon, than if I crammed these encounters in one day with artificial time constraints. It also allows me to make travel meaningful and challenging.

BUT sometimes my PCs decide to make them longer : because they don't want to let the BBEG 7 more days to further their nefarious plots, etc... It makes perfect sense in character for them to make that choice.
BUT it can become unfun for the spellcasters to wait 2 sessions, sometimes 3 or 4, without spell slots recovery. The "mana" potion is a good solution.
It's also useful in the rare scenario where they do explore a looong dungeon with no possible long rests.

They are not supposed to be available everywhere or in big quantities.

[Pex]

The recovery of spell slots is a different thing entirely, and is supposed to go hand in hand with Gritty Realism. Since SR are 8hours and LR are 7 days, a "normal" adventuring day in my campaigns is usually 6 encounters, spread over 3 to 5 days. I find it much easier to maintain verisimilitude in any scenario that isn't a dungeon, than if I crammed these encounters in one day with artificial time constraints. It also allows me to make travel meaningful and challenging.

BUT sometimes my PCs decide to make them longer : because they don't want to let the BBEG 7 more days to further their nefarious plots, etc... It makes perfect sense in character for them to make that choice.
BUT it can become unfun for the spellcasters to wait 2 sessions, sometimes 3 or 4, without spell slots recovery. The "mana" potion is a good solution.
It's also useful in the rare scenario where they do explore a looong dungeon with no possible long rests.

They are not supposed to be available everywhere or in big quantities.

I find that how long a long rest is is irrelevant. Use however long it takes in gameworld time that suits your fancy, by the book gritty realism in your case. What matters is the ratio of how many long rests players get per game session. In my opinion the slowest players should get is 1/2, one long rest per two game sessions. It's fine for that long rest to happen at the end of the second game session to start fresh on the third game session. If story mandates you need that 3rd session without a long rest, it's not a tragedy if this is a rare occurrence, and that's when players would appreciate "mana potions". Keep in mind it's not only spellcasters who sometimes really need that long rest.

[Osuniev]

I find that how long a long rest is is irrelevant. Use however long it takes in gameworld time that suits your fancy, by the book gritty realism in your case. What matters is the ratio of how many long rests players get per game session. In my opinion the slowest players should get is 1/2, one long rest per two game sessions. It's fine for that long rest to happen at the end of the second game session to start fresh on the third game session. If story mandates you need that 3rd session without a long rest, it's not a tragedy if this is a rare occurrence, and that's when players would appreciate "mana potions". Keep in mind it's not only spellcasters who sometimes really need that long rest.

Your sidebar describes my thoughts exactly. :) (although I would argue game sessions of 3 hours and 8 hours are very much not the same thing). In my game, the PCs are most of the time free to rest if they chose to (of course there are consequences in the game world, but those are (almost) never the end of the world), but it's much easier to justify it in the fiction when Hit Dice are depleted and HP are low, than when the spellcaster has used his 7th level spell slot. Which is one of the upside of GR, in my eyes : provide a more *reasonable* incentive for PCs to not be resting between every encounter, and a logical "in-story" reason for everyone to take a Short Rest (we need to sleep !)

Now, I'm interested in your thoughts concerning Hit Dice as a diminishing resource. In my current campaign (Red Hand of Doom, converted to 5e with some homebrew), my PCs complained about not getting enough Hit Dice back.

The Doomsday clock dissuaded them from taking two LR in a row. Of course, I had planned two weeks of (forced) downtime before the climax chapters (so they would have ALL resources at that moment).
But during the (in-game) month that preceded where they were really short on HD. I didn't feel it was a problem (in fact I felt it conveyed very well the feeling of fatigue of this group of adventurers running everywhere as the war had begun), I made sure they had access to other sources of healing (Healing Potions are a normal money sink in my games, and they gained a Staff of Healing early on). Yet they felt frustrated by it.

I'm toying with adopting your (indeed very common) houserule of Full HD recovery on a LR, but I'd like to understand better WHY this is frustrating in a way that harder challenges are not.

In the context of this new House Rule, it would also mean there would be no reason not to use this "+HD" bonus on every roll during the days (weeks) where you're not challenged on HP. And I think I would prefer it to be a conscious trade-off most of the time.

[Mastikator]

I'd rather hit dice cost the same as sorcery points for recovering spell slots.

I'd also say that rather than limiting it to strength, limit it to skills the PCs are proficient in.

[Osuniev]

I'd also say that rather than limiting it to strength, limit it to skills the PCs are proficient in.

Interesting. This gets closer to reinventing the variant of "d4/d6/d8/etc proficiency", but in a way that solves something that bugs me : at low to mid-levels (where it matters the most), proficiency is too small a bonus to be reliable.

It does become a big boon for classes with many skill proficiencies (Bards and Rogues), which I feel are already helped enough by Expertise, whilst my goal was to help barbarians, fighters, etc shine...


My other issue is I don't really feel an extra effort in Charisma, Intelligence or Wisdom should cost Hit Dice (well, I guess it could for a few hours conference or conversation, but many checks represent something lasting less than a minute). I liked the idea of saying "your Hit Dice are your stamina, and you can break down that door if you're willing to risk bruises and aches."


I'd rather hit dice cost the same as sorcery points for recovering spell slots.


I mean, not that it wouldn't work, but
1. The table doesn't go over 5th level
2. It's much more costly (but I guess that's your intented goal ?).
3. Memorizing (or referencing) an extra table is too complicated for an houserule (for my players), and will make the houserule annoying to use.

[PhantomSoul]

My other issue is I don't really feel an extra effort in Charisma, Intelligence or Wisdom should cost Hit Dice (well, I guess it could for a few hours conference or conversation, but many checks represent something lasting less than a minute). I liked the idea of saying "your Hit Dice are your stamina, and you can break down that door if you're willing to risk bruises and aches."


I think Hit Dice could work for the mental ones too drawing on that stamina sense of Hit Dice or on the effort/energy sense of the Hit Points that Hit Dice might otherwise be restoring: the mental Checks required that extra bit of energy and focus (you Rolled the Hit Die), so now you're that bit more tired or that bit less able to strain yourself an umpteenth time that day (you Expended the Hit Die). Basically, you're just that bit more tired (without being mechanically Exhausted).

[Pex]

Your sidebar describes my thoughts exactly. :) (although I would argue game sessions of 3 hours and 8 hours are very much not the same thing). In my game, the PCs are most of the time free to rest if they chose to (of course there are consequences in the game world, but those are (almost) never the end of the world), but it's much easier to justify it in the fiction when Hit Dice are depleted and HP are low, than when the spellcaster has used his 7th level spell slot. Which is one of the upside of GR, in my eyes : provide a more *reasonable* incentive for PCs to not be resting between every encounter, and a logical "in-story" reason for everyone to take a Short Rest (we need to sleep !)

Now, I'm interested in your thoughts concerning Hit Dice as a diminishing resource. In my current campaign (Red Hand of Doom, converted to 5e with some homebrew), my PCs complained about not getting enough Hit Dice back.

The Doomsday clock dissuaded them from taking two LR in a row. Of course, I had planned two weeks of (forced) downtime before the climax chapters (so they would have ALL resources at that moment).
But during the (in-game) month that preceded where they were really short on HD. I didn't feel it was a problem (in fact I felt it conveyed very well the feeling of fatigue of this group of adventurers running everywhere as the war had begun), I made sure they had access to other sources of healing (Healing Potions are a normal money sink in my games, and they gained a Staff of Healing early on). Yet they felt frustrated by it.

I'm toying with adopting your (indeed very common) houserule of Full HD recovery on a LR, but I'd like to understand better WHY this is frustrating in a way that harder challenges are not.

In the context of this new House Rule, it would also mean there would be no reason not to use this "+HD" bonus on every roll during the days (weeks) where you're not challenged on HP. And I think I would prefer it to be a conscious trade-off most of the time.

Math

6th level 6 HD spend it all

Long Rest

3 HD recovered spend it all

Long Rest

1 HD recovered. spend it

Long Rest

Do I still get 1 HD back? No, I have 0 forever Yes, I still only have 1 HD. If no, how many do I get back anyway next Long Rest? I really don't know if it's only 1 HD or it's meant you get back all 6.

To get back to full HD players need to have several long rests never spending HD, even if only used for healing. That's not fun.

The trade off matters even when you get back all HD spent on a long rest. Players care about their hit points. Not using HD for healing to fuel getting back another resource is a major decision for them. It means using up healing potions and other healing resources while adventuring.

[Townopolis]

Math

6th level 6 HD spend it all

Long Rest

3 HD recovered spend it all

Long Rest

1 HD recovered. spend it

Long Rest

Do I still get 1 HD back? No, I have 0 forever Yes, I still only have 1 HD. If no, how many do I get back anyway next Long Rest? I really don't know if it's only 1 HD or it's meant you get back all 6.

To get back to full HD players need to have several long rests never spending HD, even if only used for healing. That's not fun.

The trade off matters even when you get back all HD spent on a long rest. Players care about their hit points. Not using HD for healing to fuel getting back another resource is a major decision for them. It means using up healing potions and other healing resources while adventuring.

Wat? No. I'm curious how this progression is arrived at. When I look at the rules for recovering spent HD, it seems to me to clearly go:

6th level 6 HD spend it all

Long Rest

3 HD recovered, so you now have 3, spend it all

Long Rest

3 HD recovered, so you now have 3, spend 2 (1 left)

Long Rest

3 HD recovered, so you now have 4, spend 1 (3 left)

Long Rest

3 HD recovered, so you now have 6, spend 2 (4 left)

Long Rest

2 HD recovered, so you now have 6, etc...

[Amnestic]

At the end of a Long Rest, a character regains all lost Hit Points. The character also regains spent Hit Dice, up to a number of dice equal to half of the character’s total number of them (minimum of one die). For example, if a character has eight Hit Dice, he or she can regain four spent Hit Dice upon finishing a Long Rest.

You always regain spent hit dice equal to half your total, minimum 1.

Even if I spend all 10 of my hit dice at level 10, I regain five. If I then spend those five, I still regain five the next day, because my total (10) remains unchanged.

[Osuniev]

What Amnestic said. A lvl 10 character always gens 5 HD back on a Long Rest

[Pex]

Wat? No. I'm curious how this progression is arrived at. When I look at the rules for recovering spent HD, it seems to me to clearly go:

6th level 6 HD spend it all

Long Rest

3 HD recovered, so you now have 3, spend it all

Long Rest

3 HD recovered, so you now have 3, spend 2 (1 left)

Long Rest

3 HD recovered, so you now have 4, spend 1 (3 left)

Long Rest

3 HD recovered, so you now have 6, spend 2 (4 left)

Long Rest

2 HD recovered, so you now have 6, etc...

Huh?

<Rereads the rule>

Oh, I see what you mean. Was it always like this or am I having a Mandela effect of what it used to say or otherwise misunderstood? Ok, not as bad as I thought. We've been playing under the house rule anyway and it hasn't broken anything, but if the actual rule works out ok anyway so be it.

"Total number of them" is the misunderstanding. "Them" is supposed to mean the total HD you have where as I thought "them" referred to the total HD spent since that's the noun that it is in the sentence.