Tier 3-4 Ranger's, is there a point?

[nickl_2000]

One of my PCs in an on and off campaign (we switch between 2 depending on who is DMing in our group) is a Swarmfinder Ranger. The books for the campaign are supposed to go to level 20 and we will likely get there.

My question is this, is there really any point on taking a Tasha's Ranger past level 9? Getting the third level spells is pretty nice, but I guess I don't see much that you really get after that point.

[Dork_Forge]

In your case I'd say yes:

-Nature's Veil is nice

-Mighty Swarm and Swarming Dispersal is nice

-Whilst you're grabbing those features, not delaying your next ASI is a boon

I probably wouldn't take it past 15th on a Swarmkeeper though personally, I'd start looking at Fighter levels.

[Kuulvheysoon]

In your case I'd say yes:

-Nature's Veil is nice

-Mighty Swarm and Swarming Dispersal is nice

-Whilst you're grabbing those features, not delaying your next ASI is a boon

I probably wouldn't take it past 15th on a Swarmkeeper though personally, I'd start looking at Fighter levels.

If you're going that far, might as well go Swarmkeeper 16/X 4 to space out your ASIs properly.

[nickl_2000]

If you're going that far, might as well go Swarmkeeper 16/X 4 to space out your ASIs properly.

Yup, especially since Fighter 5 is a complete waste of a level.

[Nidgit]

That's kinda the case for all Rangers. The subclass abilities are usually pretty good but everything on the base chassis is pretty disappointing. Why bother Hiding as a bonus action when you can turn invisible with that same BA 4 levels earlier?

[stoutstien]

Swarmkeeper scales pretty well honestly. The 11th lv feature directly enhances something that you're going to be using most of the time and two of the options are solid. the damage increase is forgettable but on demand half cover for a class that likes to float around and a spamable Forced movement/prone effect are gold.

Level 15 nets you a reaction resistance to any damage, note this isn't limited to attacks where a lot of other defensive features are, plus a 30-ft teleport.

The subclass spell list is not bad as well. I'd give it a B.

The capstone for the class itself is also not really that bad just limited but bad capstones are more common than good ones so there's that.

I would say they are solid middle of the pack as far as overall scaling from 1-20. They are in the same field as fighters, clerics, and rogues. A few nice things here or there but a lot of dead space as well so if multiclassing is available it's probably a better option but not doing it won't feel like a complete dead end.

[Specter]

The thing about Ranger is that it's good... but levels 6, 10 and 14 are not very appealing.
Level 11 boosts the swarms, so I'd go at least there. After level 13 and 4th-level spells, all bets are off.

[Kane0]

Tashas Swarmkeeper keeps up better than most other Ranger subclasses after T2, but even then you will be sorely tempted by changing over to Fighter, Rogue or hell even Druid or Barbarian. It largely comes down to your combat performance vs utility features and that varies by party and by campaign

[nickl_2000]

The thing about Ranger is that it's good... but levels 6, 10 and 14 are not very appealing.
Level 11 boosts the swarms, so I'd go at least there. After level 13 and 4th-level spells, all bets are off.

What 4th level spell is so good?

[Townopolis]

As someone already working on homebrew ranger shenanigans, I'm curious.

If someone were to work up some ACFs (I guess they're OCFs, now) to replace... say, Vanish and Feral Senses, what do you think would be compelling without straying into OP or disruptive territory?

[Contrast]

What 4th level spell is so good?

Conjure Woodland Beings gives some utility with the variety of fey on offer. If nothing else Dryads are good for 60HP of healing.

Guardian of Nature obviously synergises well with Sharpshooter.

Admittedly if you already have a druid in the party its all much less exciting.

[Unoriginal]

That's kinda the case for all Rangers. The subclass abilities are usually pretty good but everything on the base chassis is pretty disappointing. Why bother Hiding as a bonus action when you can turn invisible with that same BA 4 levels earlier?

Because turning invisible doesn't hide you?

[Kane0]

As someone already working on homebrew ranger shenanigans, I'm curious.

If someone were to work up some ACFs (I guess they're OCFs, now) to replace... say, Vanish and Feral Senses, what do you think would be compelling without straying into OP or disruptive territory?

Got a thread for it? Cause brewing Rangers is my jam


What 4th level spell is so good?
Conjure woodland beings and summon elemental are pretty good, arcane eye and locate creature are freebies.
Freedom of movement and guardian of nature are okay, neither amazing nor terrible.

[sambojin]

To OP's question: No. Not really. Unless that's the character you want to play. Which is an excellent and best reason in itself. Otherwise...

There is actually very little reason to take them beyond level 5 or 6. I mean, they're ok, with every Tasha's rule and substitution in place. They're not bad. They can do stuff, pretty well too.

But how much better is a lvl5/6 Swarmkeeper Ranger/ lvl3-6 Druid (any subclass) than a mono-classed lvl9-13 Swarmkeeper Ranger is? Given that we're talking about a monoclass character at least +1lvl above any multiclass comparison. Because, it's quite a bit better. Two short rest resources (wildshape/ familiars/ whatevers), a full spell list up to lvl2/3 spells, heaps of spell slots, summoning, character features, subclass features, the list goes on. You could substitute Cleric, or Wizard, or Bard, or even Sorceror or Warlock here in place of Druid levels. They're all incredibly good. Even "spells known" casters, rather than full-book or full-list casters, have a lot more spells known with plenty of class features, with long/short rest slots to use them too, than Ranger will ever give you.

Honestly, the same can be said of most martial characters by lvl5-12. The first full caster level feels a little weak sometimes (but not always), the second feels pretty good or broken, the third feels like you're a powerhouse. Even before you get proper lvl5/6 abilities from a caster class.

I'd say the cut-off before multiclassing out from Ranger would be lvl5-8. You're just losing so much after that, that every level may as well be a full caster level. Level 10/11 feature good? Try level 2/3 casting or sub/class features, that has so much fly and invis and bs that your proficiency bonus per day ability won't really look that good any more, and it doesn't matter if you only made the minimum stat for the full-caster multiclass.

Fighters/Rogues might have reasons to disagree with this. Rangers, especially Swarmkeepers, really don't.
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It's kind of why the answer to "Which multiclass level would buff my Full-caster build best?" for many full-caster classes often is: "Keep levelling in the class you're in!". No matter how you want to play it, more slots and more options and more caster features is better than most other things. Spells known or prepared are simply that good, with spell slots to use them. They just are. Not many Martial classes say "At every level, you decide, pick off a list of half-a-dozen or two options, maybe 50+ later on, and some of them scale wonderfully as you level, or work amazingly well at base level anyway. Totes legit bro! You do you man, smash this up!". Some classes can change their choices-from-12/50-options, every single day. Some just pick more on level-up or gather more through campaigns.

It's up to you to flavour your playstyle, full-caster levels give you a proper spice-rack to do so. Dip 1/2/3lvls out from one, maybe, preferably of some other Full-caster class, or slot-using/ resource-gaining-synergistic/ stat-breaking/ or action-economy class, but even then it's often a trap. Every Full-caster level comes with an extensive range of optional but powerful character features, and there's rarely, if ever, a dead level.
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[AHF]

Since the OP generally asked about Tasha’s Rangers have to mention Fey Wanderer gets some nice stuff post 9th level. Concentration free summoning with Fey Reinforcements is a highlight at level 11. The enhanced, free Misty Step ability at 15 is also going to be absolutely regularly used. I’d at least be there through level 11.

[Townopolis]

Got a thread for it? Cause brewing Rangers is my jam

I do now. Just threw up a thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?636361-A-low-magic-Optional-Class-Feature-to-replace-(almost)-every-Ranger-feature-PEACH&p=25192840#post25192840) for all the OCFs I have homebrewed for ranger.

Included are my first attempts at making more enticing high level features for ranger, also spoilered below.

Flush Out
Replaces Vanish
Starting at level 14, you can focus your senses to hunt down even the most elusive prey. As a bonus action, you can you can select a single creature to flush out. If that creature is within 60’ of you, they cannot benefit from invisibility, obscurement, or cover less than total cover until the end of your turn. If you hit the creature with an attack during this turn, you can extend these effects until the start of your next turn.

Harrow
Replaces Feral Senses
Starting at level 18, your attacks harry and maim your opponents, opening them to following strikes. Whenever you hit a creature with a weapon attack, the next attack against that creature has advantage if it is made before the end of your next turn.

[Lolzyking]

One of my PCs in an on and off campaign (we switch between 2 depending on who is DMing in our group) is a Swarmfinder Ranger. The books for the campaign are supposed to go to level 20 and we will likely get there.

My question is this, is there really any point on taking a Tasha's Ranger past level 9? Getting the third level spells is pretty nice, but I guess I don't see much that you really get after that point.

Guardian of nature is a really fun spell.....

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Nope. I bailed on mine after Ranger 9. Fighter up to 4 is helpful and Rogue generally provides benefit as long as you want it to.

[Foxydono]

I played ranger and after hitting lvl 5, or 7 for some subclasses, there isn't any value to be had in going ranger any further, sadly. At least from a power point perspective. It ain't bad, but it is always sub optimal.

[Quietus]

I played ranger and after hitting lvl 5, or 7 for some subclasses, there isn't any value to be had in going ranger any further, sadly. At least from a power point perspective. It ain't bad, but it is always sub optimal.

Beastmaster takes issue with your absolutes! :smalltongue:

Honestly, I am excited for my tier 3 abilities; subclass at 11 (two beast attacks), ASI is always good, fourth level spells get me guardian of nature which will be shared with my companion two levels later, level 14 is just kind of okay with the Favored Foe bump to d8 and the bonus action Hide competing with everything else I do, but at 15 I get Share Spells which is going to be great. Followed by ASI, and finally at 17, fifth level spells.

Tier 4? Yeah, not so excited. Feral Senses is just fancy blindsight. ASI is great, of course, but the Ranger capstone is just awful. +wis to attack/damage once per turn on a favored enemy/favored foe? Egh. This would have been good if it was once per turn, period. But as it is, it's so niche as to be almost pointless.

So yeah. My subclass offers enough - even before considering that my Primal Beast's HP is a direct function of my Ranger level - that I am excited all the way up to 17. Past that? Well, I've dipped one level into sorcerer for story reasons, and I'm deciding currently whether to get Sorc3 in the end if I ever get there, or if I want to get Ranger19 for the extra spell known, blindsight, and ASI. The neat thing I noticed was that the Shield and Absorb Elements spells I picked through Sorcerer will apply to Share Spells as well, so I can help defend my pet with them at the end of tier 3, that's going to be fun.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I played ranger and after hitting lvl 5, or 7 for some subclasses, there isn't any value to be had in going ranger any further, sadly. At least from a power point perspective. It ain't bad, but it is always sub optimal.

I often see this argument and can't quite agree. Ranger 8 is better than most other martial levels divisible by 4 in that you get Land's Stride on top of the ASI. Ranger 9 is 2 3rd level spells per long rest and another spell known; again if your are multiclassing into Fighter and/or Rogue most levels this will be a net gain for the extra Ranger level. Spells like Plant Growth and Wind Wall are legitimate abilities that stay viable into tier 3 in a way very few martial abilities do.

[Khrysaes]

I usually never take ranger past 9. I usually only take 4 levels actually, maybe up to 8, but I also don't like spell casting rangers.

That said, 8 levels of rogue is so much better than level 9-16 of ranger, especially in comparison to the hunter subclass.
2 levels of rogue gets a ranger's level 14 feature and a revised rangers level 8 feature.
5 levels of rogue gets a hunter rangers level 15 feature,
7 levels of rogue (at 8 ranger/7 rogue) nets two options from a level 15 hunter rangers feature

Not to mention rogue gets sneak attacks, expertise, thieves tools, and great subclasses.

If spell casting is a concern you can be an arcane trickster, which while may not net higher level spells to prepare, but does give you cantrips, a familiar, and some higher level spell slots

[Stangler]

Level 5 is the jumping off point because jumping out is inevitable and the sooner you commit to another class the sooner you get their tier 2 stuff. Summons are good but they are not good enough and if you really want them go Druid early

[quindraco]

I usually never take ranger past 9. I usually only take 4 levels actually, maybe up to 8, but I also don't like spell casting rangers.

That said, 8 levels of rogue is so much better than level 9-16 of ranger, especially in comparison to the hunter subclass.
2 levels of rogue gets a ranger's level 14 feature and a revised rangers level 8 feature.
5 levels of rogue gets a hunter rangers level 15 feature,
7 levels of rogue (at 8 ranger/7 rogue) nets two options from a level 15 hunter rangers feature

Not to mention rogue gets sneak attacks, expertise, thieves tools, and great subclasses.

If spell casting is a concern you can be an arcane trickster, which while may not net higher level spells to prepare, but does give you cantrips, a familiar, and some higher level spell slots

Ranger 9 is relatively dead in that all it does is scale abilities the Ranger already has - nothing new is achieved - but L10 and L11 are usually fantastic. For example, Ranger 8/Rogue 2 vs Ranger 10, this is what you give up for those Rogue levels:

1 spell known
1-2 of your spells known can be L3.
2 L3 spell slots
THP = 1d8+Wis mod pb/long rest (at L10, 4/long rest)
You never need to long rest again - you can now function indefinitely on short rests, without consuming diamond powder. This is the only way in the game to do it in a genuinely resourceless fashion.
Bonus Action turn invisible for 1 round, pb/long rest (4/long rest at L10).


L11 is often a significant jump in subclass functionality, although it does depend on a lot on subclass. For example, swarmkeeper exhibits a huge jump in power at L11, usually providing a permanent +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saves (although genuine permanence requires a bug for you to keep in your hand and squish nonlethally every turn).

[Witty Username]

I would argue that all choices are pretty meaningless by Tier 4 as character power has ballooned beyond the point of control generally. As for tier 3, it would depend on what your opinion of the higher level spells are. there are strong arguments for a rogue or cleric dip depending on your specific choices but straight swarm keeper should be serviceable.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Ranger 9 is relatively dead in that all it does is scale abilities the Ranger already has - nothing new is achieved - but L10 and L11 are usually fantastic. For example, Ranger 8/Rogue 2 vs Ranger 10, this is what you give up for those Rogue levels:

1 spell known
1-2 of your spells known can be L3.
2 L3 spell slots
THP = 1d8+Wis mod pb/long rest (at L10, 4/long rest)
You never need to long rest again - you can now function indefinitely on short rests, without consuming diamond powder. This is the only way in the game to do it in a genuinely resourceless fashion.
Bonus Action turn invisible for 1 round, pb/long rest (4/long rest at L10).


L11 is often a significant jump in subclass functionality, although it does depend on a lot on subclass. For example, swarmkeeper exhibits a huge jump in power at L11, usually providing a permanent +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saves (although genuine permanence requires a bug for you to keep in your hand and squish nonlethally every turn).

Maybe the examples I'm going to provide are campaign dependent and if your group is running through a dungeon crawl some of this won't apply, and frankly if you are maybe a Ranger isn't a great choice anyway, but...
In one campaign our Gloomstalker 9 multiclass used Wind Wall to protect one flank of our ship from numerous archers on one of several enemy boats so the party could deal with the others. Later on he was locking down small armies in the bush with Plant Growth; in one case I remember they were cultists and the rest of the group was able to focus on a dragon. Nothing any fighter level Figher 1-4 or Rogue 1-whatever gives you will do anything like that.

[sithlordnergal]

Hmmm, I'd say at least get to level 12, that way you get all your ASI's, then maybe go Druid. I feel like Shepard Druid could be a good thematic fit here, even if the Shepard Druid's 6th level ability won't do much to aid you. That said, I wouldn't go past level 12, simply because the Ranger doesn't have very many good high end abilities. And while Resistance against attacks is nice, being able to summon a small army of CR 1/4th beasts with magical attacks is far handier. Swarmkeeper also has some fun synergy with a few Druid spells, notably Spike Growth, as creatures in it take that damage even if they're forcibly moved.

Speaking of magical attacks, correct me if I'm wrong, while the Swarm damage does go up, its not magical, and therefore can be resisted. If so, I think you'll find the damage of the swarm to be a bit...lacking after a while. Though being able to knock someone prone on an attack is really handy.

[nickl_2000]

Hmmm, I'd say at least get to level 12, that way you get all your ASI's, then maybe go Druid. I feel like Shepard Druid could be a good thematic fit here, even if the Shepard Druid's 6th level ability won't do much to aid you. That said, I wouldn't go past level 12, simply because the Ranger doesn't have very many good high end abilities. And while Resistance against attacks is nice, being able to summon a small army of CR 1/4th beasts with magical attacks is far handier. Swarmkeeper also has some fun synergy with a few Druid spells, notably Spike Growth, as creatures in it take that damage even if they're forcibly moved.

Speaking of magical attacks, correct me if I'm wrong, while the Swarm damage does go up, its not magical, and therefore can be resisted. If so, I think you'll find the damage of the swarm to be a bit...lacking after a while. Though being able to knock someone prone on an attack is really handy.

It is not magical, although it is only 1d6/1d8 per round. The advantage I see isn't the extra damage (although it is nice), the advantage comes from being able to push someone and knock them prone or being able to be moved yourself and get half-cover when you do.

And I will agree with you that a Shepherd Druid is a good fit with a Swarmmaster (and really a great class/subclass overall). However, I just don't like massive minionmancy as a play style. That being said, the tasha's summons are something I would consider using.