Swords Bard

[Bobthewizard]

I'm making a swords bard for a game with NO MULTICLASSING. Swords bard is a requirement. The rest of the party is a melee Watchers Paladin, melee Spore Druid, and ranged Gloomstalker. We're starting at level 8, and likely only going to 9-10. The DM likes to start at high level and then stay there. We get 2 uncommon magic items with approval, so likely no flight. Feats are allowed but no variant human or custom lineage. Tasha's stat moving is allowed.

With those restrictions, what advice do you all have? Race, feats, stat spread (point buy), spells, strategies? I haven't played bards much, and never a swords bard. I was thinking Tabaxi for the extra speed, or goblin for the free BA disengage. Open to other thoughts.

[Corey]

How do you envision allocating your spell-casting resources among:

Out of combat uses?
Combat emergency uses?
Routine combat uses?

[Bobthewizard]

How do you envision allocating your spell-casting resources among:

Out of combat uses?
Combat emergency uses?
Routine combat uses?


I'm open to suggestions. I generally use spells for out of combat once other methods have failed, then plan my spell slots for about 6 encounters per LR. So at this point I can afford about 2 leveled spells per combat, then go in and attack. Less if I've used some for emergencies or out of combat.

I'd love to see your suggestions for each category.

[Unoriginal]

If you can get whip proficiency, it's pretty great with Mobile Flourish.

Especially if your DM allows you attacking objects/pieces of the environment in order to move around the room in 3 dimensions.

[Corey]

I'm open to suggestions. I generally use spells for out of combat once other methods have failed, then plan my spell slots for about 6 encounters per LR. So at this point I can afford about 2 leveled spells per combat, then go in and attack. Less if I've used some for emergencies or out of combat.

I'd love to see your suggestions for each category.

There are a lot of appealing choices for one concentration spell per combat: Slow, Haste, Enemies Abound, Greater Invisibility, Hold Person, even Heat Metal. The cheaper Faerie Fire and Bane are strong too. Of course, keeping concentration gets harder once you start getting slapped around.

Healing Word is a classic emergency spell. Presumably your druid will have it prepared (too).

Feather Fall may or may not be great depending on the terrain ... and also on whether you snag Find Greater Steed at Level 10. :D

A number of good bard spells can also be found on the druid list, e.g. Faerie Fire, Heat Metal, Enhance Ability, or Plant Growth.

Polymorph has a lot of uses, including as a huge source of combat HP, but it competes for the concentration slot.

Once you get to Level 9, Synaptic Static does not require concentration.

Invisibility is a classic for out-of-combat utility, or for trying to start combat with surprise. See also the druid's Pass Without Trace.

Dissonant Whispers could be fun if you have several meleers.

It's also very tempting to pick something like Suggestion or Command.

[Sorinth]

You can't really go wrong with Half-Elf and given two other melee players Dissonant Whispers should be one of the go to options to proc multiple opportunity attacks.

Depending how your DM rules Booming Blade + Dissonant Whispers then it can be worth taking the High-Elf variant for Half-Elf which would give you BB and then take the Warcaster feat. So as a sample round would be while in melee alongside one of your allies cast DW causing them to flee, with Warcaster use BB and throw on a mobile flourish to push them. The creature is now more then a full movement away from you and your allies, there's been several opportunity attacks, and they took the BB rider damage.

[Frogreaver]

IMO, your sword flourishes give you plenty of mobility. So you can avoid a race whose primary function is adding mobility.

Sword Bards are already ASI starved. You really want high dex and high charisma. So I would avoid combat concentration spells so that I could avoid concentration investment.

So I would lean toward combat spells like:

Command
Dissonant Whispers
Healing Word

Aid
Blindness/Deafness
Shatter

Dispel Magic
Plant Growth
Mass Healing Word

Dimension Door
Freedom of Movement

I would make sure I pick up counterspell with magical secrets. Maybe Greater Steed with the other pick. Fireball isn't a terrible pick either.

[Dork_Forge]

Hmm, probably Half Elf pumping Dex and Con with the floating +1s, go TWF and ideally two +1 shortswords/scimitars.

ASIs to bump Cha and Dex, you can probably afford to grab Elven Accuracy to bump the Cha.

You'll have respectable melee damage and a high enough Cha to still be a relevant Bard.

[stoutstien]

It seems counterintuitive but nothing prevents sword bards from working with ranged weapons. You could pick up some additional weapon proficiency somewhere so you can mix it up when you don't want to risk being directly in the hurty bit.

[dragoeniex]

If you like extra mobility, go ahead and pick up Longstrider! Lasts long enough for multiple fights when you're in a dungeon.

I played a bard (Whispers) up through lv 20, and I always preferred to limit myself to a few go-to concentration spells so effects could stack with non-con choices. Grain of salt: I leaned heavily into debuff, so my recommendations do too.

Blindness/Deafness and Synaptic Static are two great spells others have mentioned that are non-con. You'll also reap more personal benefits with your swordsmanship since blind and staticky foes are going to have a harder time hitting you back.

Slow and Hypnotic Pattern are both solid. Pick your favorite to concentrate on during crowd fights.

I noticed your team has generous melee coverage. Want a fun compliment to that setup?

Silence. Cast Silence on an enemy mage and get help from your melee friends to keep said mage inside the area. That's a great shutdown technique, though you can't count on it working every time. Bonus: shut down monologues that aren't your own.

If you get to a slightly higher level than you're expecting, it's hard to go wrong with Forcecage. Very set-it-and-forget-it.



Make sure to remember your medium armor proficiency! Dex doesn't need to be above 14 regarding your AC.

Most any race would be fun and fine, but you mentioned goblins, and I do enjoy that mental image.

[Kane0]

Yuanti might raise a few eyebrows but how about Gnome? Otherwise elf and half elf are the traditionally good choices unless you really want to squeeze in another feat with vuman.

You probably wont want any feats that tie up your bonus action, but Defensive Duelist could be a good choice since it uses your reaction instead, youre starting with a higher prof bonus and its very on point with swords bard flavor. Resilient, inspiring leader, metamagic adept and martial adept are also good options.

Perhaps a smite spell in your repertoire, although they use conc which is heavily contested with options like haste and such.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

There are a lot of appealing choices for one concentration spell per combat: Slow, Haste, Enemies Abound, Greater Invisibility, Hold Person, even Heat Metal. The cheaper Faerie Fire and Bane are strong too. Of course, keeping concentration gets harder once you start getting slapped around.

Healing Word is a classic emergency spell. Presumably your druid will have it prepared (too).

Feather Fall may or may not be great depending on the terrain ... and also on whether you snag Find Greater Steed at Level 10. :D

A number of good bard spells can also be found on the druid list, e.g. Faerie Fire, Heat Metal, Enhance Ability, or Plant Growth.

Polymorph has a lot of uses, including as a huge source of combat HP, but it competes for the concentration slot.

Once you get to Level 9, Synaptic Static does not require concentration.

Invisibility is a classic for out-of-combat utility, or for trying to start combat with surprise. See also the druid's Pass Without Trace.

Dissonant Whispers could be fun if you have several meleers.

It's also very tempting to pick something like Suggestion or Command.

Given that you'd probably like to be casting a concentration spell then subject to regular hits I'd be thinking of a feat to help you make concentration saves. Given your level to start and that your weapon is a focus I'd favor Resilient Con over Warcaster. By 9th level if you were able to bump Con to 16 with Res Con you'd get + 7 to save, so only miss on 1s and 2s. Bless, Bardic Inspiration, or (can't remember if you had a Paly in the party) you'll be in automatic territory.

[Valorant]

What about dragon mark races? Are they allowed?

[Bobthewizard]

If you can get whip proficiency, it's pretty great with Mobile Flourish.

Especially if your DM allows you attacking objects/pieces of the environment in order to move around the room in 3 dimensions.

Seems expensive to use a feat for whip proficiency on a class that needs both Dex and Cha. But it's a neat idea. It might work better in a game with multiclassing.


There are a lot of appealing choices for one concentration spell per combat: Slow, Haste, Enemies Abound, Greater Invisibility, Hold Person, even Heat Metal. The cheaper Faerie Fire and Bane are strong too. Of course, keeping concentration gets harder once you start getting slapped around.

Healing Word is a classic emergency spell. Presumably your druid will have it prepared (too).

Feather Fall may or may not be great depending on the terrain ... and also on whether you snag Find Greater Steed at Level 10. :D

A number of good bard spells can also be found on the druid list, e.g. Faerie Fire, Heat Metal, Enhance Ability, or Plant Growth.

Polymorph has a lot of uses, including as a huge source of combat HP, but it competes for the concentration slot.

Once you get to Level 9, Synaptic Static does not require concentration.

Invisibility is a classic for out-of-combat utility, or for trying to start combat with surprise. See also the druid's Pass Without Trace.

Dissonant Whispers could be fun if you have several meleers.

It's also very tempting to pick something like Suggestion or Command.

Thanks. These are all pretty close to what I was thinking. Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern and Slow for openers. Dissonant whispers, command, pyrotechnics as a second round, then get into melee if it looks like I need to.


You can't really go wrong with Half-Elf and given two other melee players Dissonant Whispers should be one of the go to options to proc multiple opportunity attacks.

Depending how your DM rules Booming Blade + Dissonant Whispers then it can be worth taking the High-Elf variant for Half-Elf which would give you BB and then take the Warcaster feat. So as a sample round would be while in melee alongside one of your allies cast DW causing them to flee, with Warcaster use BB and throw on a mobile flourish to push them. The creature is now more then a full movement away from you and your allies, there's been several opportunity attacks, and they took the BB rider damage.

With Tasha's rules, half-elves are probably always the optimal choice, so I think I'm going to avoid that. But you are likely right. Warcaster could be a good choice just for concentration. I will definitely be using dissonant whispers/command to get AOO for the party.


IMO, your sword flourishes give you plenty of mobility. So you can avoid a race whose primary function is adding mobility.

Sword Bards are already ASI starved. You really want high dex and high charisma. So I would avoid combat concentration spells so that I could avoid concentration investment.

So I would lean toward combat spells like:

Command
Dissonant Whispers
Healing Word

Aid
Blindness/Deafness
Shatter

Dispel Magic
Plant Growth
Mass Healing Word

Dimension Door
Freedom of Movement

I would make sure I pick up counterspell with magical secrets. Maybe Greater Steed with the other pick. Fireball isn't a terrible pick either.

Focusing on non-concentration spells is an interesting take. Concentration spells are so good, though, I'd have trouble avoiding them altogether. But I get what you are saying. No need for Res. CON/Warcaster. Focus more on Dex to increase melee ability. It's good advice. I'll have to think about this a bit. You could keep some out of combat concentration spells like invisibility and suggestion.

You are probably right on the mobility part. It' rare that you need to close a large distance. Most fights are in enclosed spaces. Goblin's disengage is probably more valuable than the Tabaxi's climb and speed bump.


Hmm, probably Half Elf pumping Dex and Con with the floating +1s, go TWF and ideally two +1 shortswords/scimitars.

ASIs to bump Cha and Dex, you can probably afford to grab Elven Accuracy to bump the Cha.

You'll have respectable melee damage and a high enough Cha to still be a relevant Bard.

You are right, but I think I'll avoid half-elf since with the Tasha's rules it's always the best choice. I'm going to try to make something more unique. But again, you are absolutely right.


It seems counterintuitive but nothing prevents sword bards from working with ranged weapons. You could pick up some additional weapon proficiency somewhere so you can mix it up when you don't want to risk being directly in the hurty bit.

Maybe starting as an elf. I wouldn't use a feat to get the proficiency.


If you like extra mobility, go ahead and pick up Longstrider! Lasts long enough for multiple fights when you're in a dungeon.

I played a bard (Whispers) up through lv 20, and I always preferred to limit myself to a few go-to concentration spells so effects could stack with non-con choices. Grain of salt: I leaned heavily into debuff, so my recommendations do too.

Blindness/Deafness and Synaptic Static are two great spells others have mentioned that are non-con. You'll also reap more personal benefits with your swordsmanship since blind and staticky foes are going to have a harder time hitting you back.

Slow and Hypnotic Pattern are both solid. Pick your favorite to concentrate on during crowd fights.

I noticed your team has generous melee coverage. Want a fun compliment to that setup?

Silence. Cast Silence on an enemy mage and get help from your melee friends to keep said mage inside the area. That's a great shutdown technique, though you can't count on it working every time. Bonus: shut down monologues that aren't your own.

If you get to a slightly higher level than you're expecting, it's hard to go wrong with Forcecage. Very set-it-and-forget-it.

Make sure to remember your medium armor proficiency! Dex doesn't need to be above 14 regarding your AC.

Most any race would be fun and fine, but you mentioned goblins, and I do enjoy that mental image.

The rest of this is about what I was thinking, but Longstrider, huh? You and frogreaver should talk.


Yuanti might raise a few eyebrows but how about Gnome? Otherwise elf and half elf are the traditionally good choices unless you really want to squeeze in another feat with vuman.

You probably wont want any feats that tie up your bonus action, but Defensive Duelist could be a good choice since it uses your reaction instead, youre starting with a higher prof bonus and its very on point with swords bard flavor. Resilient, inspiring leader, metamagic adept and martial adept are also good options.

Perhaps a smite spell in your repertoire, although they use conc which is heavily contested with options like haste and such.

Yuanti would actually fit pretty well in this campaign.


Given that you'd probably like to be casting a concentration spell then subject to regular hits I'd be thinking of a feat to help you make concentration saves. Given your level to start and that your weapon is a focus I'd favor Resilient Con over Warcaster. By 9th level if you were able to bump Con to 16 with Res Con you'd get + 7 to save, so only miss on 1s and 2s. Bless, Bardic Inspiration, or (can't remember if you had a Paly in the party) you'll be in automatic territory.

I was thinking Res. CON and Fey touched to even out CHA. I try to avoid 15/15/15/8/8/8 point buys so I left CON at 14 since I thought Dex and Cha were higher priorities.


What about dragon mark races? Are they allowed?

Yes. What would you suggest?

[Bphill561]

I would be tempted to go full Dex and with Tasha's mods on the table.

Mountain Dwarf

Str 8
Dex 14 +2 Racial +4 ASI (2x)
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 14 +2 Racial

First two ASI's +2 Dex. Equipment, take Candlekeeps Serpent Scale Armor (Uncommon) which allows full dex and no stealth penalty on Medium Scale Mail armor. Gauntlets of Orge power to pump strength up to 19 to cover a weakness. You can swap out excess weapon proficiencies for tool kits as necessary (or instruments if that is allowed). Same with Armor proficiencies making you pretty handy. Not technically allowed, but maybe you can swing trading Medium armor from the dwarf for shield if you are interested in maxing out AC.

Background would be open, but entertainer might be interesting. Your dwarf spent more time at the bar instead of training, especially once he figured out he could get free drinks from telling stories at the pub.

Not as casting focused, but 16 Cha is still not bad.

[Valorant]

.



Yes. What would you suggest?

Ok so I will be first of all honest: without multiclassing I wouldnt go sword or Valor bard if I would like to be respectful melee combatant. Without multiclass to hexblade/Paladin and access to any damage boostig spells before level 10 (magic secrets) they just don't get the damage done. Hell they don't even get access to Fig Cloud or Darkness so we could have ways of getting advantage. Again before level 10 all we get is fearie fire which is unreliable. They don't even get Shadow blade! Not to even mention you are MAD.

If what you is melee full caster I would go Bladesinger or Hexblade. If what you want is bard go Lore and be caster. Here I could give you great build tips without multiclassing.

If you really want COMBAT monoclass bard this is how I would do it. It's very good build, much better with hexblade dip but still. Range combat but fully usable in melee:


Variant human: Crossbow expert feat, level 4: +2 Dex, level 8: +2 Dex. This gives you 3 range attacks 1d6+5 each and allow you to fight in melee range and still use Flourishes for extra damage. Focus on CC spells like Hypnotic pattern and then use 3 attacks + Flourishes to deal DMG + defensive/mobile Flourishes. Alternative level 8 ASI +2 CHA for better spells DC.

On level 10 take Holy Weapon and Find Greater Steed. Now summon Pegasus and cast Holy Weapon. For 1 hour you have 3 attacks 1d6+2d8+Flourish+5 and flying. You are also great target for party haste buff. Ask DM to let you take archery fighting style instead of duelist or two weapon since you won't use them.

Level 12: work on your charisma to 20.

Level 14: Magic Secrets. Take Tenser Transformation and Simulacrum.

Now your Sim also has greater Steed and xbe feat. Ultimate combo: cast Tenser on yourself. Now both you and your Pegasus have advantage on attacks, extra thp and +2d12 force damage to each attack and Pegasus gets extra attack from tenser. Your Sim casts Holy Weapon on you. Now you deal 3x (1d6+2d8+2d12+5) and your Pegasus deal 2 attacks with advantage with 2d12 bonus DMG. Your Sim rides his Pegasus and still shoot 3x1d6+5 if needed.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Seems expensive to use a feat for whip proficiency on a class that needs both Dex and Cha. But it's a neat idea. It might work better in a game with multiclassing.



Thanks. These are all pretty close to what I was thinking. Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern and Slow for openers. Dissonant whispers, command, pyrotechnics as a second round, then get into melee if it looks like I need to.



With Tasha's rules, half-elves are probably always the optimal choice, so I think I'm going to avoid that. But you are likely right. Warcaster could be a good choice just for concentration. I will definitely be using dissonant whispers/command to get AOO for the party.



Focusing on non-concentration spells is an interesting take. Concentration spells are so good, though, I'd have trouble avoiding them altogether. But I get what you are saying. No need for Res. CON/Warcaster. Focus more on Dex to increase melee ability. It's good advice. I'll have to think about this a bit. You could keep some out of combat concentration spells like invisibility and suggestion.

You are probably right on the mobility part. It' rare that you need to close a large distance. Most fights are in enclosed spaces. Goblin's disengage is probably more valuable than the Tabaxi's climb and speed bump.



You are right, but I think I'll avoid half-elf since with the Tasha's rules it's always the best choice. I'm going to try to make something more unique. But again, you are absolutely right.



Maybe starting as an elf. I wouldn't use a feat to get the proficiency.



The rest of this is about what I was thinking, but Longstrider, huh? You and frogreaver should talk.



Yuanti would actually fit pretty well in this campaign.



I was thinking Res. CON and Fey touched to even out CHA. I try to avoid 15/15/15/8/8/8 point buys so I left CON at 14 since I thought Dex and Cha were higher priorities.



Yes. What would you suggest?

When you say you left Con at 14 is that before or after Res Con? Might as well be 13 before and 14 after. Then you can bump Wis 2 points.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Ok so I will be first of all honest: without multiclassing I wouldnt go sword or Valor bard if I would like to be respectful melee combatant. Without multiclass to hexblade/Paladin and access to any damage boostig spells before level 10 (magic secrets) they just don't get the damage done. Hell they don't even get access to Fig Cloud or Darkness so we could have ways of getting advantage. Again before level 10 all we get is fearie fire which is unreliable. They don't even get Shadow blade! Not to even mention you are MAD.

If what you is melee full caster I would go Bladesinger or Hexblade. If what you want is bard go Lore and be caster. Here I could give you great build tips without multiclassing. If you really want COMBAT monoclass bard this is how I would do it. It's very good build, much better with hexblade dip but still. Range combat but fully usable in melee:


Variant human: Crossbow expert feat, level 4: +2 Dex, level 8: +2 Dex. This gives you 3 range attacks 1d6+5 each and allow you to fight in melee range and still use Flourishes for extra damage. Focus on CC spells like Hypnotic pattern and then use 3 attacks + Flourishes to deal DMG + defensive/mobile Flourishes.

On level 10 take Holy Weapon and Find Greater Steed. Now summon Pegasus and cast Holy Weapon. For 1 hour you have 3 attacks 1d6+2d8+Flourish+5 and flying. You are also great target for party haste buff. Ask DM to let you take archery fighting style instead of duelist or two weapon since you won't use them.

Level 12: work on your charisma to 20.

Level 14: Magic Secrets. Take Tenser Transformation and Simulacrum.

Now your Sim also has greater Steed and xbe feat. Ultimate combo: cast Tenser on yourself. Now both you and your Pegasus have advantage on attacks, extra thp and +2d12 force damage to each attack and Pegasus gets extra attack from tenser. Your Sim casts Holy Weapon on you. Now you deal 3x (1d6+2d8+2d12+5) and your Pegasus deal 2 attacks with advantage with 2d12 bonus DMG. Your Sim rides his Pegasus and still shoot 3x1d6+5 if needed.

You're just one of those people aren't you. The OP asks for advice about playing a perfectly viable subclass and you come on here saying 'don't play X; play Y'. Heck, don't even play the class you are interested in. Also the OP said they will likely only play to 10th level. How is your response possibly helpful? 5e is balanced enough that there are very few bad choices, so why not be supportive of what people want to do so they actually enjoy the game.

[Sorinth]

If you want a mobile hit and run build that isn't one of the standard combos it may be worth considering Centaur. 40ft base speed and Mobile Flourish should work together quite nicely. Alternatively going strength Minotaur + Crusher can let you ping pong enemies around the battlefield.

[da newt]

Some random ideas:

Dhampir race - extra speed, a bite (just fun), and especially spider climb

Revenent blade feat - BA attack, +1 AC, +1 ASI (elf of some sort)

BTW Goblin get BA hide too which is great.

[Guy Lombard-O]

(ranged weapons) Maybe starting as an elf. I wouldn't use a feat to get the proficiency.


I was thinking Res. CON and Fey touched to even out CHA. I try to avoid 15/15/15/8/8/8 point buys so I left CON at 14 since I thought Dex and Cha were higher priorities.

An I idea I successfully managed: Present the Swords bard as a slightly reflavored subclass, the Bow bard. Only difference? Access to the Archery fighting style.

Since you're prioritizing Dex on your bard anyway, with Archery you then spend an ASI on Sharpshooter and can still hit things. And you already get proficiency with the Short Bow under Simple Ranged Weapons, and that's good enough that you don't need to invest anything more into it.

You now have a perfectly capable full caster who can land 1 big concentration spell per combat, then hang back and hand out bonus action bardic inspirations and shoot arrows for decent/good damage participation. Just hang back and make good use of cover. Using Tabaxi or Goblin for extra mobility or Hide is a good way to ameliorate any weaknesses to your HP and concentration from a middling Con.

I suppose it's not horribly creative, but it's quite effective.

[Valorant]

You're just one of those people aren't you. The OP asks for advice about playing a perfectly viable subclass and you come on here saying 'don't play X; play Y'. Heck, don't even play the class you are interested in. Also the OP said they will likely only play to 10th level. How is your response possibly helpful? 5e is balanced enough that there are very few bad choices, so why not be supportive of what people want to do so they actually enjoy the game.

Eh? What is your problem? This build is online at level 8 with 3 attacks and at level 10 gets his first biggest boost with greater steed xbe and holy weapon combo. Build that also work in melee range and work with flourishes. I offered my advice and posted whole build I recommend but at the same time I told OP the truth that bards without multiclassing are not good melee and it's a fact. If he don't mind he will still play as one but I prefer that he has whole perspective and even considering my opinion about monoclass melee bard I still gave him template for very good build, probably best one he can get within restrictions he has.

If you have better build - go ahead and post one. I will wait.

So yeah - I am that guy who offers good builds and gives whole perspective for players so they don't get disappointed with their expectations.

[Catullus64]

Here's the build that I would make given your stated parameters

Race: Eladrin

DEX > CHA > INT = WIS = CON > STR

Background: Probably one that grants an information-gathering feature, like Criminal or Sage

Skills: Perception, Performance, Stealth, Insight, Persuasion/Deception, Investigation

Cantrips: Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Vicious Mockery

Spells: Disguise Self, Healing Word, Comprehend Languages, Speak with Animals, Feather Fall, Mirror Image, Suggestion, Intellect Fortress, Sending, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility

Fighting Style: Dueling

4th Level ASI: Mobile
8th Level ASI: Depending on how your ability scores shake out, either Stat boost to obtain 18 Dexterity, or half-feat for the same.

9th Level: Pick up Animate Objects or Legend Lore.
10th Level: Steel Wind Strike and Haste. Prestidigitation

[Frogreaver]

Focusing on non-concentration spells is an interesting take. Concentration spells are so good, though, I'd have trouble avoiding them altogether. But I get what you are saying. No need for Res. CON/Warcaster. Focus more on Dex to increase melee ability. It's good advice. I'll have to think about this a bit. You could keep some out of combat concentration spells like invisibility and suggestion.

You are probably right on the mobility part. It' rare that you need to close a large distance. Most fights are in enclosed spaces. Goblin's disengage is probably more valuable than the Tabaxi's climb and speed bump.


Thanks. A few additional thoughts.

Having a high speed to close into melee isn't as important when you have spells you can cast for the turns you cannot. That's what I would do instead of worrying about boosting speed for closing.

Being able to effectively disengage from an enemy is aided by Mobile Flourish which lets you push an enemy 5ft away from you when you hit. At that point you can just use your move action and move away. I feel goblin is a bit redundant there, but still is an interesting and useful pick.

Yea, I didn't mention out of combat concentration spells, but you picked up on that. Invisibility and Suggestion are great picks. The illusion spells can be as well (and can double for combat use to some extent). Silent Image, Major Image. Polymorph is solid as well since it can be useful for gaining flight and works as a good emergency use combat spell. I think even with the non-concentration focus i'd have 1 high impact concentration spell for battle known, but not necessarily used all the time. It would be more of an emergency button for when things go sideways.

To me the Bard would really want both resilient con and warcaster to keep his concentration up in melee given his average AC and limited defensive abilities outside that (no shield or absorb elements, etc). That's a big drain on ASI's especially with no Variant Human.

Maybe it would help to explore a sample build.

Half Elf (+2 Cha, +1 Dex, +1 Con)
Starting stats (8 str, 16 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 17 cha)
Take the Fey Touched feat at level 4 for (18 cha, misty step and shield)
Take +2 Dex at level 8 for total stats of 18 dex, 18 cha, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 8 str

Spells - focus on non-concentration spells as previously discussed

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Thanks. A few additional thoughts.

Having a high speed to close into melee isn't as important when you have spells you can cast for the turns you cannot. That's what I would do instead of worrying about boosting speed for closing.

Being able to effectively disengage from an enemy is aided by Mobile Flourish which lets you push an enemy 5ft away from you when you hit. At that point you can just use your move action and move away. I feel goblin is a bit redundant there, but still is an interesting and useful pick.

Yea, I didn't mention out of combat concentration spells, but you picked up on that. Invisibility and Suggestion are great picks. The illusion spells can be as well (and can double for combat use to some extent). Silent Image, Major Image. Polymorph is solid as well since it can be useful for gaining flight and works as a good emergency use combat spell. I think even with the non-concentration focus i'd have 1 high impact concentration spell for battle known, but not necessarily used all the time. It would be more of an emergency button for when things go sideways.

To me the Bard would really want both resilient con and warcaster to keep his concentration up in melee given his average AC and limited defensive abilities outside that (no shield or absorb elements, etc). That's a big drain on ASI's especially with no Variant Human.

Maybe it would help to explore a sample build.

Half Elf (+2 Cha, +1 Dex, +1 Con)
Starting stats (8 str, 16 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 17 cha)
Take the Fey Touched feat at level 4 for (18 cha, misty step and shield)
Take +2 Dex at level 8 for total stats of 18 dex, 18 cha, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 8 str

Spells - focus on non-concentration spells as previously discussed

I can't see why Warcaster is a need in this case. By late tier 2, 90% or more of the hits this character will be taking will be 20 points or less, particularly with Dex saves and Con saves (through Res Con). If the character is either near the Paladin (likely if frontlineing and taking hits), has a bardic inspiration dice available, or is Blessed then all of those saves are basically auto. Then there are those saves that are basically unmakable; Warcaster won't help you make concentration if you fail the Dragon Breath save for 40+ points anyway. Based on the number of times it'd actually help (and that your weapon is a focus), I'd put Warcaster way down the list, below ASIs to Chr and Dex and many other feats.

[Bobthewizard]

...take Candlekeeps Serpent Scale Armor (Uncommon)

I love this recommendation. I'm going to avoid mountain dwarves and half-elves since it seems so blatantly just for the ASI, but you are correct it would make a great build. I'm getting to the point where I roll my eyes at half-elves and mountain dwarves the way I used to for variant humans.


Variant human: Crossbow expert feat, level 4: +2 Dex, level 8: +2 Dex. This gives you 3 range attacks 1d6+5 each and allow you to fight in melee range and still use Flourishes for extra damage. Focus on CC spells like Hypnotic pattern and then use 3 attacks + Flourishes to deal DMG + defensive/mobile Flourishes. Alternative level 8 ASI +2 CHA for better spells DC.

On level 10 take Holy Weapon and Find Greater Steed. Now summon Pegasus and cast Holy Weapon. For 1 hour you have 3 attacks 1d6+2d8+Flourish+5 and flying. You are also great target for party haste buff. Ask DM to let you take archery fighting style instead of duelist or two weapon since you won't use them.


This is good. Your discussion about blade singer/hexblade/lore bard is all correct, but I've played them all before, so I'm trying something new to see if I can make it work.

Crossbow expert is something I hadn't thought of. Might step on the toes of the ranger, but it's a good suggestion. Thanks for the level 10 spell recommendations.


When you say you left Con at 14 is that before or after Res Con? Might as well be 13 before and 14 after. Then you can bump Wis 2 points.

14 after.


The OP asks for advice about playing a perfectly viable subclass and you come on here saying 'don't play X; play Y'.

I was ok with that since he still gave me advice on the build I asked for, but thanks for sticking up for me. :smallsmile:


If you want a mobile hit and run build that isn't one of the standard combos it may be worth considering Centaur. 40ft base speed and Mobile Flourish should work together quite nicely. Alternatively going strength Minotaur + Crusher can let you ping pong enemies around the battlefield.

Both good suggestions. I've seen a STR-based minotaur bard before and it worked well, with expertise in athletics.


Some random ideas:

Dhampir race - extra speed, a bite (just fun), and especially spider climb

Revenent blade feat - BA attack, +1 AC, +1 ASI (elf of some sort)

BTW Goblin get BA hide too which is great.

Ooh, a Dhampir swords bard would be awesome. Could a Dhampir push people 5' with their bite? That would be fun. Revenant blade is great. I played a pact of the blade celestial warlock with that once and it was fun.


An I idea I successfully managed: Present the Swords bard as a slightly reflavored subclass, the Bow bard. Only difference? Access to the Archery fighting style.

Unfortunately, archery style is not an option. DM likes to keep to the rules.


Here's the build that I would make given your stated parameters...

Race: Eladrin

Spells: Disguise Self, Healing Word, Comprehend Languages, Speak with Animals, Feather Fall, Mirror Image, Suggestion, Intellect Fortress, Sending, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility

4th Level ASI: Mobile
8th Level ASI: Depending on how your ability scores shake out, either Stat boost to obtain 18 Dexterity, or half-feat for the same.

9th Level: Pick up Animate Objects or Legend Lore.
10th Level: Steel Wind Strike and Haste. Prestidigitation

These are some neat ideas. Adding mobile might be too expensive given the MADness, but I love the mobile feat.


Thanks. A few additional thoughts...

To me the Bard would really want both resilient con and warcaster to keep his concentration up in melee given his average AC and limited defensive abilities outside that (no shield or absorb elements, etc). That's a big drain on ASI's especially with no Variant Human.

Maybe it would help to explore a sample build.

Half Elf (+2 Cha, +1 Dex, +1 Con)
Starting stats (8 str, 16 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 17 cha)
Take the Fey Touched feat at level 4 for (18 cha, misty step and shield)
Take +2 Dex at level 8 for total stats of 18 dex, 18 cha, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 8 str

Spells - focus on non-concentration spells as previously discussed

Thanks. I think I want to stick with a concentration-spell-casting build this time, but I like these ideas. So probably trading the 18 dex down to 16 and picking up Resilient CON. Staying close to the paladin should be enough to keep concentration. So I think the plan would be concentration spell in round 1, then command/DW/blindness/pyrotechinics type spell in round two if it looks like it's needed, then see if I should get in melee and use defensive flourishes, throw a couple daggers, or use vicious mockery, depending on the battle. Healing word as needed. Misty step, polymorph, dimension door for emergencies. Maybe not the most optimized build, but it should give me a lot of options each round.

[Frogreaver]

Thanks. I think I want to stick with a concentration-spell-casting build this time, but I like these ideas. So probably trading the 18 dex down to 16 and picking up Resilient CON. Staying close to the paladin should be enough to keep concentration. So I think the plan would be concentration spell in round 1, then command/DW/blindness/pyrotechinics type spell in round two if it looks like it's needed, then see if I should get in melee and use defensive flourishes, throw a couple daggers, or use vicious mockery, depending on the battle. Healing word as needed. Misty step, polymorph, dimension door for emergencies. Maybe not the most optimized build, but it should give me a lot of options each round.

Yea, the concentration focused build should be good too. Let us know how often it feels like you are losing concentration. I'm curious how that works out.

[Valorant]

This is good. Your discussion about blade singer/hexblade/lore bard is all correct, but I've played them all before, so I'm trying something new to see if I can make it work.

Crossbow expert is something I hadn't thought of. Might step on the toes of the ranger, but it's a good suggestion. Thanks for the level 10 spell recommendations.
.

No worries. That's best DPR you can get really and still play to your cards. Doing any build that would involve GWM or SS would require too many ASI. You could also go with PAM and spear n shield combo but Xbe is way more flexible and combos much better with greater steed and focus on Dex which is waaaaaay better stat than strength. Since it's level 10 you have very few ASI so better focus on one thing and be good at it.


Also being ranged means you will be hit less so less concentration checks. You could stay also with 18 Dex and grab Res (con) on level 8

[Bphill561]

I love this recommendation. I'm going to avoid mountain dwarves and half-elves since it seems so blatantly just for the ASI, but you are correct it would make a great build. I'm getting to the point where I roll my eyes at half-elves and mountain dwarves the way I used to for variant humans.


Ha, me too but I did not want to post sub-optimized. The Centaur idea posted above seems pretty neat.

[Dr. Cliché]

Out of interest, any love for a Mark of Shadow Elf for a Swords Bard?

I don't think they have much that helps the 'sword' part but it seems like it brings quite a bit of utility outside of combat.

[sambojin]

For items, I'd probably recommend a "+1 Rhythm-Makers Drum" from Tasha's, because +1 inspiration a day and +1 spell DCs is very good. It's like +2Cha, in effect.

An "Instrument of the Bards: Mac-Fuirmidh cittern" is nice for the free spell slots. That's Invisibility, Fly, Levitate, Protection from G&E, Fog Cloud, Cure Wounds and Barkskin once per day. Frees up your spells known a bit? Yeah, just a tiny bit. Stacks with the Rhythm Maker's Drum as well, because it uses your DC, so levitate enemies if you want.


If none of this appeals, maybe the Armour or Ogre Gauntlets as mentioned above, or a "Decanter of Endless Water". Sure, it's only a DC13 Str save with low damage, but it's a ranged proning attack that is unlimited. Kind of lvl1 spell slot worthy in effect, but you can use it whenever, and it doesn't require attunement. Plus, you'll never die of thirst.

(Since it might be a short campaign, stuff like a Gem of Brightness is also worthwhile considering. 50 charges of DC15Con blind, or use 5 charges for a 30' cone of that. It's not bad.)
------

For Races, I'm toying with the idea of a Tabaxi Hexblood for a few builds. Good stats, 20' climb speed, Perception and Stealth, and the ability to cast Hex off standard slots (+1 basic). Might interfere with your bonus action damage a bit, but is like a free Magical Secret at level 1, and comes with Disguise Self as well. Could possibly add a fair bit to your damage sustain at lvl8, and hex'ing things out of combat makes inspiration all the better.
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I'm a big fan of including a summoning spell for magical secrets at any level. Conjure spells are ok, but I'd probably go for Summon Fey. Give them a magical short sword if you've got one spare, your decanter(?), and a basic adventurer's kit (caltrops, ball bearings, torches, tinder twigs, some oil, a lantern, some rope and a grapnel) and you're good to go. You have a mini-simulcrum a couple of times a day at lvl10. Or a spare mini murder-hobo, that follows your orders and is smarter and wiser than you. Sure, it doesn't get your spells, but it does teleport/ charm/ have a ranged proning attack(?)/ and hits quite hard with a lvl4+ spell slot used for it. Keeps DPR remarkably high with good sustain, even for middle-of-the-road DPR classes.

[Bobthewizard]

Out of interest, any love for a Mark of Shadow Elf for a Swords Bard?

I don't think they have much that helps the 'sword' part but it seems like it brings quite a bit of utility outside of combat.

The theme would be great for a Mark of Shadow Swords bard. I'm not sure bards need help with illusion and enchantment though. I love Mark of Shadow for a vengeance paladin. It makes for a nice mix of spells. For a swords bard, maybe Mark of Passage would be better?


For items, I'd probably recommend a "+1 Rhythm-Makers Drum" from Tasha's, because +1 inspiration a day and +1 spell DCs is very good. It's like +2Cha, in effect.

Then either the Armour or Ogre Gauntlets as mentioned above, or a "Decanter of Endless Water". Sure, it's only a DC13 Str save with low damage, but it's a ranged proning attack that is unlimited. Kind of lvl1 spell slot worthy in effect, but you can use it whenever, and it doesn't require attunement. Plus, you'll never die of thirst.

For Races, I'm toying with the idea of a Tabaxi Hexblood for a few builds. Good stats, 20' climb speed, Perception and Stealth, and the ability to cast Hex off standard slots (+1 basic). Might interfere with your bonus action damage a bit, but is like a free Magical Secret at level 1, and comes with Disguise Self as well. Could possibly add a fair bit to your damage sustain at lvl8, and hex'ing things out of combat makes inspiration all the better.

I'm a big fan of including a summoning spell for magical secrets at any level. Conjure spells are ok, but I'd probably go for Summon Fey. Give them a magical short sword if you've got one spare, your decanter, and a basic adventurer's kit (caltrops, ball bearings, torches, tinder twigs, some oil, a lantern, some rope and a grapnel) and you're good to go. You have a mini-simulcrum a couple of times a day at lvl10. Or a spare mini murder-hobo, that follows your orders and is smarter and wiser than you. Sure, it doesn't get your spells, but it does teleport/ charm/ have a ranged proning attack/ and hits quite hard with a lvl4+ spell slot used for it. Keeps DPR remarkably high with good sustain, even for middle-of-the-road DPR classes.

Rhythm makers drum would be great. Decanter would be a little silly for this campaign, but it is undeniably good.

I think you lose all the Tabaxi abilities when you become a hexblood, though.

I love the Tasha's summoning spells.

[sambojin]

Added a few more items above. Instrument of the Bard is amazing :)

You keep the climb speed and skills from Tabaxi as a Hexblood, as far as I know.

Free casts from the Instrument, better casts from the Drum (you have a magic Lute and a little magic Drum around your neck, a one man combat band waiting to happen. Gaffer tape them together if you need to), and you can cast Hex with any level of spell slot you have for basic combat damage sustain. Big spells are often better, but sometimes you just want your slots/ concentration to last ages. Your Pally will adore you for Hex'ing Str or Dex, because shoves are an ability check, not a save. Shove prone and smite-to-death just got a lot easier. Druids also love enemies having disadvantage on checks, because there are a tonne of Str/Dex Conjure Animals checks available, that aren't saves either. Restrain-on-hit just became very reliable, whether they're Dex'y or Str'y, once it sticks it stays stuck in restrained mode (advantage for all the party's attacks, ranged or not, assuming the conjured beast that did it isn't obscuring them). Hex is very party friendly, both in and out of combat.

Seems like it would fit pretty well into many of the above builds, although you don't get to start with a feat, which is a pity. Just assume you took the feat that says "You get +1Hex and +1Disguise Self, that keys off Charisma, and you can cast them with slots too", and it feels a bit better. An enchantment and an illusion spell, and one doesn't even need concentration (and it costs an action to see through it). That's the feat your racial choice gave you.

Summon Fey also gets +1 to-hit from the Drum as well, assuming you're holding it and are attuned to it. It's always on a rope around your neck, so happy days. Them are some stats :)

[Valorant]

Out of interest, any love for a Mark of Shadow Elf for a Swords Bard?

I don't think they have much that helps the 'sword' part but it seems like it brings quite a bit of utility outside of combat.

Without multiclassing all mark races work amazing for caster bards but they do nothing for sword or Valor bard to help them increase their melee damage

Mark of storm could work only if swords would be able to grab blind fighting style with DM approval. Then we could make GWM swords bard using for cloud + blind fighting style combo for advantage, similar to how you can build GWM EKs, Rangers or Paladins or crit fish Paladins using Mark of Storm or Mark of Shadow races (Darkness + Blind fighting style).

But RAW without multiclassing we would need to waste ASI on fighting style and since mark of storm/shadow do not have free feat we would have to waste tons of progression since we need blind FS, GWM and 18-20 STR. So not optimal at all.

[Eldariel]

I would just go Half-Elf with Elven Accuracy (boosting Cha) and Sharpshooter, profitting of your Extra Attack and the fact that maneuvers work at range. 18 Cha and 16 Dex + SS would be a superb setup overall.

If I went melee, I would 100% take Moderately Armored for a shield and go melee with Defensive Flourish making you nigh' untouchable. Half-Elf is still solid. Racial proficiencies or skills.