Echo Knight + Minor Illusion Hidden Attacker

[sayaijin]

So there was a similar thread to this one, but it wasn't as focused on the topic as I'd like.

If an Echo Knight hides inside an illusion, and can therefore see out of it without any problem, does attacking from inside the illusion reveal their position / reveal the illusion?

I'm working on an Echo Knight / Rogue multiclass (very crowded bonus action economy, I know)

Something like:
1) Cast Minor Illusion and move Echo into position next to enemy
2) Cunning Action Hide inside illusion
3) Action Surge attack from Echo which is not in the illusion

On all subsequent turns I would then attack from inside the illusion from the Echo's position and bonus action create new Echo if it's destroyed. I would rinse and repeat until the illusion is ruined.

As far as I can see, there is no physical interaction happening with the illusion, and the attacker needs to be hidden for advantage, not the Echo (Your DM's opinion may vary on this).

Relevant rules:

Tweet regarding hiding inside an illusion.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/960239719861821440

From Minor Illusion:
"Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it."

From Echo Knight:
"When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space. You make this choice for each attack."

[Dork_Forge]

Unless you're a small creature it would be at disadvantage for melee for being prone, the attack is coming from the echo's space, but you're the one making it still.

I also don't see anything that says you can see through the illusion, it says it becomes faint, that is not clear mechanical language and is up to DM interpretation. Personally I'd say you couldn't see clearly through it, if it all.

[Tanarii]

If an Echo Knight hides inside an illusion, and can therefore see out of it without any problem, does attacking from inside the illusion reveal their position / reveal the illusion?
Ask your DM. Too many ruling required for illusions.

For example, they may rule that hiding inside the illusion already counts as physically interacting with it, and this both reveals it as an illusion and makes it go faint for everyone.

Or they may rule that physically interacting with it reveals it to be an illusion to you, but you can't see out of it without using an action and making an investigation check against your own DC to make it go faint. But that it does that individually for each creature.

Or they may rule that physically interacting reveals it as an illusion and makes it go faint for any creature that observes the physical interaction, so you can see out, but if you attack they see that and the illusion goes faint for them.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Option C: ban Echo Knight, as the echo feature is a mess.

To actually (attempt to) answer your question, it's the same answer that I always give in regards to illusions. Talk with your DM before you make the character and figure out how you both want to/are going to treat illusions.

[sayaijin]

I didn't realize attacking from inside an illusion was still this controversial. I'm glad I referenced that Crawford tweet in the original post.

So as to keep this conversation on topic, let's assume that attacking from inside an illusion is allowed (per the tweet). The question I'm asking here is will attacking from inside the illusion break the illusion. Normally when you attack from inside an illusion it breaks it because there's a physical interaction. In this case there is no physical interaction.

I recognize that different DM's will rule illusions differently, but I'm speaking from a RAW and RAI (pet the tweet) perspective.

[Bobthewizard]

Attacking through the echo reveals your position and the illusion. You still have to make the attack. The echo never attacks, you just make an attack through the echo.

If you are restrained, attacks through the echo still have disadvantage. If you attack from hiding, it gives away your position. If you attack from inside an illusion, it reveals the illusion. Attacking reveals your position when you are hiding, and there is no specific rule in the echo knight subclass that says you can avoid that by using the echo.

I think that's the right ruling by RAW and there is no need to make the echo knight more powerful than it is. Always picture the attack as coming from the character and just delivered by the echo. That helps to keep the logic the same as the rules. I describe my echo knight as making the attack and then his echo mimicking it.

[sayaijin]

Attacking through the echo reveals your position and the illusion. You still have to make the attack. The echo never attacks, you just make an attack through the echo.

If you are restrained, attacks through the echo still have disadvantage. If you attack from hiding, it gives away your position. If you attack from inside an illusion, it reveals the illusion. Attacking reveals your position when you are hiding, and there is no specific rule in the echo knight subclass that says you can avoid that by using the echo.

I think that's the right ruling by RAW and there is no need to make the echo knight more powerful than it is. Always picture the attack as coming from the character and just delivered by the echo. That helps to keep the logic the same as the rules. I describe my echo knight as making the attack and then his echo mimicking it.

RAW yes, attacking from hiding gives away your position, but what if you're still "unseen"?

When you make a ranged attack using your Echo, the ranged attack originates from your Echos position. So you spend an arrow of ammunition, but it moves from your Echos position, not yours.

So as far as I can tell, none of this physically interacts with the illusion and therefore doesn't reveal the illusion. Wouldn't you still be "unseen" because you're completely inside an illusion? This is similar to how attacking while under the effects of Greater Invisibility gives away your position, but you aren't seen.

[sayaijin]

Option C: ban Echo Knight, as the echo feature is a mess.


This is starting to seem like the best answer.