TV Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Rynjin

2021-09-10, 10:54 PM

Everything I've seen on it sounded good for a while. Casting was pretty good, with the exception of Perrin (who always had a more Hispanic or dark skinned Mediterranean cast in my head), trailer seemed solid, and the show seemed to get that while Rand is the main character of the SERIES, he's not really the main character of the FIRST BOOK, as they go out of their way to obfuscate which of the three boys is special (the final answer being: all of them) and Lan and Moiraine try to keep everyone safe from all the dark and spooky **** out there.

Then I heard they were going to try to adapt all of book 1, along with parts of books 2 and 3 into one 8 episode season, and my hopes started to diminish a bit. While the series can use a lot of trimming, most of that trimming would need to take place between books 6 through 10, maybe 4 and 5 as well at a real stretch. Books 1-3 are dense with plot and I can't see how chopping them up to make a single 8 episode season is going to turn out well.

Ramza00

2021-09-10, 11:16 PM

So, Amazon Prime is doing the Wheel of Time series; the trailer is on Youtube and Amazon Prime.

It looks...Interesting. Don't know anything more about it.

Abandon all hope while you are still innocent. It is a book series of 4.3+ million words, with 1,379 total POVs done by 147 different POV characters. For comparison Lord of the Rings plus the Hobbit over 4 books is 576k words.

It is “baroque” with its amount of unnecessary excess detail so it will be interesting how a tv series will adapt all of that.

russdm

2021-09-11, 12:08 AM

Abandon all hope while you are still innocent. It is a book series of 4.3+ million words, with 1,379 total POVs done by 147 different POV characters. For comparison Lord of the Rings plus the Hobbit over 4 books is 576k words.

It is “baroque” with its amount of unnecessary excess detail so it will be interesting how a tv series will adapt all of that.

Ummm......

I actually the whole books series from start to finish, book 1 to book 13/14/15/WhenEverItEnds.

I will say this about the Book Series:

Robert Jordan was a moron. The books kept adding whole new plots to it, and all bunches of stuff. The books just dragged on and were a struggle to get through. Brandon Sanderson's were pretty good and featured some good stuff and good pacing; pacing is something that Robert Jordan's books kind of missed out on.

KillianHawkeye

2021-09-11, 12:44 AM

Well they didn't make the same mistake of Game Of Thrones and at least the series is finished before they make the TV adaptation. In general, I don't have high hopes for book adaptations, but we can be assured that if the series goes bad it's because the TV people screwed up.

My main concern is actually that R Jordan's weird gender hang-ups and stereotypes are totally out of place in this day and age.

Gnoman

2021-09-11, 05:28 PM

Rynjin

2021-09-11, 06:12 PM

Have a link? What I was talking about was from an interview but I did only skim it.

Murg

2021-09-11, 11:33 PM

I have read the books up until the last two.

I was not impressed with the trailer.

I have to question how they think they'e going to fit a massive 14 book series into a TV show? I mean just doing Book 1 and completely ignoring every minor character and subplot could take them two seasons. Then they've just got 13 (larger) books to go!

How are any of the dozens of major named characters going to get enough screen time to matter? Well, maybe I am being too pessimistic; I will hold off final judgement until the series comes out.

Maelstrom

2021-09-12, 04:56 AM

I have read the books up until the last two.
I have to question how they think they'e going to fit a massive 14 book series into a TV show? I mean just doing Book 1 and completely ignoring every minor character and subplot could take them two seasons. Then they've just got 13 (larger) books to go!

Honestly I think TV is the only real way to doing epic series such as these, especially with technology progressing as it has.

Precure

2021-09-12, 01:00 PM

Finally a thread to discuss Wheel of Time.

Rodin

2021-09-12, 01:19 PM

Have a link? What I was talking about was from an interview but I did only skim it.

Most of what we know seems to come from some AMA sessions. https://wot-prime.fandom.com/wiki/Rafe_Judkins/Quotes#Season_1_wrap_May_2021

A few key comments from there are that elements from Eye of the World will be cut and used in later seasons, there will not be one season per book (with most of the cutting happening to the bloat in the middle of the books), and that he dodged a question on what exactly the books covered in Season 1 and 2 will be.

The final bit of info is speculative but intereseting. There are 8 episodes in season 1, with the final 2 episode titles being hidden. However, the 6th episode is titled "The Flame of Tar Valon", which is one of the opening chapter titles for The Great Hunt. This seems to indicate that either Rand's meeting with the Amyrlin is moved forward in time or we will have completed Eye by episode 6 and will be moving into Great Hunt territory by then.

And let's be honest. As much chaff as there is to cut from the later books, there's quite a lot the TV series can skim over in the early books too. Rand and Mat's adventures on the road to Camelyn are not that important to the greater narrative, and most of the chasing of Padan Fain in book 2 can be excised. A lot of the time the girls spend in the Tower is very cuttable as well - you need a certain amount of info to establish Tower politics, but most of their arc in the Tower is them discussing how to hunt Black Ajah and griping about being punished for one infraction ore another.

What I think we're most likely to get is Eye of the World largely intact, but with some of the more important setup plots from Great Hunt moved forward. Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn then get folded into one season, as there's not a lot happening in the world at large (at least, not on page) during those books. At that point you can slow down and properly address the plot in books 4-6, then start ruthless slashing and burning the kudzu that springs up until the plot starts moving again half a dozen books later. I'd expect 7-8. 9-10, and 11-12 to each be folded into one season, not necessarily evenly. There was one book (Winter's Heart? Path of Daggers? Way too long since I read them) that was pointed out as being almost entirely pointless in terms of moving the plot forward. That book may just get cut entirely apart from a handful of key scenes being pulled out.

Seerow

2021-09-12, 01:25 PM

Rodin

2021-09-12, 03:10 PM

I think it's bold to assume that the Eye isn't either cut, or one of the plot elements shuffled forward into a later season.

It was always really weird that the group went into the blight and fought a number of forsaken plus who Rand thinks is the Dark One.... all at the end of book 1. This is one of the first things I expected to be majorly changed.

Possibly, though I don't know when it would make a reappearance. The Eye is essentially a private Callandor, something that gives Rand a massive temporary power buff and lets everyone who sees him use it (including himself) know he's The Dragon.

The other things that come from the Eye are one of the Seals, the Dragon Banner (which gets used at the end of book 2) and The Horn of Valere (which is the Macguffin driving the entirety of book 2).

It's hard to push it back further than that. You need the Horn for book 2, so if you don't get it at the Eye you have to find it somewhere else. By book 3 the Eye is irrelevant - Callandor serves the same purpose and is reusable.

Gnoman

2021-09-12, 04:22 PM

Finally a thread to discuss Wheel of Time.

Getting the show discussion out of the Lets Read thread is a good thing.

Mechalich

2021-09-12, 05:10 PM

The final bit of info is speculative but intereseting. There are 8 episodes in season 1, with the final 2 episode titles being hidden. However, the 6th episode is titled "The Flame of Tar Valon", which is one of the opening chapter titles for The Great Hunt. This seems to indicate that either Rand's meeting with the Amyrlin is moved forward in time or we will have completed Eye by episode 6 and will be moving into Great Hunt territory by then.

The former seems much more likely than the later, since it's really just a matter of juggling some logistics. The novels chose to bypass Tar Valon in Book One because they take the ways from Caemlyn and then moves the Amyrlin up to Fal Dara to meet with the main cast. That move creates a delay in several of The Great Hunt's events because a significant portion of the cast then has to ride back to Tar Valon from Fal Dara. It seems reasonable that the show will have the characters go to Tar Valon first, bypassing Caemlyn (none of the Trakand siblings have been cast yet), and then jump to the Eye from there.

The whole incident at the Eye is such an obvious season climax event that it's almost impossible to imagine it being used for any other purpose. WoT has many flaws, but Jordan was absolutely a master of ending his books with a bang.

Psyren

2021-09-12, 05:44 PM

Since we have a show thread now let's throw up the trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fus4Xb_TLg

The whole incident at the Eye is such an obvious season climax event that it's almost impossible to imagine it being used for any other purpose. WoT has many flaws, but Jordan was absolutely a master of ending his books with a bang.

It's notable that the one book where he didn't do this (Crossroads) is often seen as one of the worst if not the worst.

I think it's bold to assume that the Eye isn't either cut, or one of the plot elements shuffled forward into a later season.

It was always really weird that the group went into the blight and fought a number of forsaken plus who Rand thinks is the Dark One.... all at the end of book 1. This is one of the first things I expected to be majorly changed.

I don't think it's weird. The Eye is the best explanation for why the Shadow, despite thousands of years of searching, failed to locate Lews' stash. It's also a great way to foreshadow what Rand can eventually do without having him deal with the taint yet. And of course it also explains how Rand, despite only just having begun to channel, is able to body three (well, two) Forsaken.

Anteros

2021-09-13, 06:52 AM

If the rumor that they're doing the first 3 books in one season is true, I don't see how they can possibly do it justice in 8 episodes. I understand the material needs trimming, but to compress it that much I don't see how it would even make sense.

Also, a lot of the "filler" or cuttable content is really what makes the series unique. Jordan makes his world breathe in a way that no other author really replicates. A lot of people don't like it, and that's completely understandable, but it's what makes the series unique.

anjxed

2021-09-13, 07:37 AM

Plus most of the fat that needed to be trimmed seemed to be from book 7 onwards

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-13, 09:08 AM

If the rumor that they're doing the first 3 books in one season is true, I don't see how they can possibly do it justice in 8 episodes. I understand the material needs trimming, but to compress it that much I don't see how it would even make sense.

As mentioned, they're not compressing all of the first three books into one season. The first season is going to be largely book 1, but with some events and themes from books 2 and 3 pulled forward. I wouldn't be surprised if some New Spring made it in too, given Moiraine and Lan's central billing. And correspondingly, some parts of book 1 are getting pushed back, Caemlyn in particular. The Trakands weren't cast for Season 1 (but there's some leaks/rumor mill stuff that Ceara Coveney has been cast as Elayne for season 2, based on her appearing in some photos with other cast members).

From the above linked collection of quotes:

Season One will cover Book One, plus some of Book Two and even Book Three. But also not all of Book One, as some of it is in Season Two. Cryptic enough?

We'll have to see, but I very much expect Season 1 will still end at the Eye. I'm interested to see how they handle it, since I've always had mixed feelings about it. It's a great climax setpiece for the one book, but it always felt like a weirdly isolated one-and-done macguffin that never really shows up or gets mentioned again outside of that passing mention in TSR.

Brandon Sanderson said a neat thing a while back that I like, which is that you can think of the show as another "turning of the Wheel". There look to be a lot of changes to stuff, and the showrunners seem to be taking a lot of liberty to shuffle things around significantly to make things work for TV, which so far I'm feeling pretty optimistic for.

Psyren

2021-09-13, 10:07 AM

Plus most of the fat that needed to be trimmed seemed to be from book 7 onwards

Ahh the slog. Let's hope they take a hedge trimmer to it.

Brandon Sanderson said a neat thing a while back that I like, which is that you can think of the show as another "turning of the Wheel". There look to be a lot of changes to stuff, and the showrunners seem to be taking a lot of liberty to shuffle things around significantly to make things work for TV, which so far I'm feeling pretty optimistic for.

This or a portal stone world are honestly the best ways to think about it. This is a setting where the same 7 ages repeat endlessly after all.

Dire_Flumph

2021-09-13, 10:40 AM

As someone who was deep into this series in the 90's I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with, but my expectations are that this will be a loose adaption at best. Doing a streamlined and pared down run through book one, then taking bits and pieces of other books as inspiration, but largely creating their own narrative is my guess. Getting the whole series filmed even in trimmed down fashion would require this to become a "Game of Thrones" style phenomenon to happen at least, and I don't see that in the cards. Amazon isn't even following through completing the Expanse series, so I'm expecting whole books worth of plot to end up on the chopping block even if they do make it to the conclusion.

Consider me hyped though to watch this. Especially want to see what they come up with for the Ways.

Blackhawk748

2021-09-13, 11:11 AM

Well, Moraine looks good from casting, and I assume that's Egwene with Rand? It's been over a decade since I read the series but I always thought of her as a dirty blonde, then again I somehow missed the fact that all of the Seanchan speak with Texas style drawls or that Tuon was black, so very possible I missed relevant info there.

Though doesn't Rand have red hair? I get not really bothering, but I thought that he did. Or was it a bunch of Aiel who did? Again, been a while.

It does seem like they aren't even trying for the Aes Sedai ageless face thing, and I can't say that I blame them.

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-13, 11:16 AM

The showrunner specifically called out the ageless faces and color-changing Warder cloaks as effects that won't be making it to the show just because they'd be hideously expensive to handle/a poor use of the effects budget. CGI alteration that needs to be done for every frame a certain character appears, sometimes multiple characters at a time? No thanks.

Blackhawk748

2021-09-13, 11:29 AM

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-13, 11:44 AM

A few of Judkin's comments on budget constraints I found particularly illuminating. Spoiler tagged in case people want to be surprised by changes to what we will and won't see.

VFX that require you to touch every frame that a character appears on screen are not great uses of money. So don’t expect to see CGI faces for all Aes Sedai

I love Lan's cloak in the show. But much like Aes Sedai agelessness, if it's an effect that's going to cost a fortune every time a character is on screen, it's a bad use of money. Unless you want to see all of S1 in the Winespring Inn. Then you can have color changing cloaks :)

The writers room floor is littered with my tears. Truly though, I don't want people to be unprepared for how different the show is to the books. To do a proper adaptation, it has to be. As a thought exercise, just imagine we can only do four of the cities from EoTW. So from Emonds Field, Taren Ferry, Baerlon, Shadar Logoth, Whitebridge, Four Kings, Breen's Spring, Caemlyn, Fal Dara, which do you choose? What are the knock-on effects for character and story from the ones you don't go to? Which characters haven't met each other now and how can you reconnect them? We have amazing writers and hugely helpful support in Brandon and Harriet to tackle these changes. But they're not small. Gird your loins, my friends.

This is perhaps the biggest source of changes for us. Even with the massive amount of money Amazon has kindly given us to bring this world to life, to go to as many unique cities/villages/locations as they do in the books is simply impossible. We have chosen to do a few places extremely well (both culturally and with production design) instead of doing dozens of places cheaply and badly. This results in many changes that have huge ripple effects (if you can't go to Baerlon, do you still meet Min? Do you still encounter the Whitecloaks? Do you still have dreams of Ba'alzamon? Etc). I'm betting that most things that feel the most unnecessarily changed to people from the books (even if they're hugely separated from that specific location) will be borne out of a location specific change.

KillianHawkeye

2021-09-13, 11:46 AM

Psyren

2021-09-13, 11:55 AM

A few of Judkin's comments on budget constraints I found particularly illuminating. Spoiler tagged in case people want to be surprised by changes to what we will and won't see.

Great context from Rafe, what's the source for these comments?

Consider me hyped though to watch this. Especially want to see what they come up with for the Ways.

Different but related, I'm really excited for how they handle The Matrix Tel'aran'rhiod. Also, I'm expecting the Aiel Waste to be in here in a future season and really want to see that.

Well, Moraine looks good from casting, and I assume that's Egwene with Rand? It's been over a decade since I read the series but I always thought of her as a dirty blonde, then again I somehow missed the fact that all of the Seanchan speak with Texas style drawls or that Tuon was black, so very possible I missed relevant info there.

Though doesn't Rand have red hair? I get not really bothering, but I thought that he did. Or was it a bunch of Aiel who did? Again, been a while.

It does seem like they aren't even trying for the Aes Sedai ageless face thing, and I can't say that I blame them.

I forget all the supporting quotes, but the Dusty Wheel podcast showed how (cover art notwithstanding) brown Egwene and Nynaeve can/do align with what we're told in the books.

Some of the changes are definitely more contradictory however, like Siuan, but I don't mind those either.

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-13, 11:58 AM

Rodin posted a wiki link further up that's collected all of Judkins' answers during various AMAs on social media (twitter, instagram, etc.)

Again, for posterity: https://wot-prime.fandom.com/wiki/Rafe_Judkins/Quotes

As to minor details I'm looking forward to: whether or not they'll cast Americans for the Seanchan :V

Rodin

2021-09-13, 12:11 PM

Brandon Sanderson said a neat thing a while back that I like, which is that you can think of the show as another "turning of the Wheel". There look to be a lot of changes to stuff, and the showrunners seem to be taking a lot of liberty to shuffle things around significantly to make things work for TV, which so far I'm feeling pretty optimistic for.

Douglas Adams also insisted that every adaptation of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy be substantially different, as there was no point in simply adapting the same story over and over again.

I also came to this conclusion about The Witcher series. They pulled chronology from all over the books, as well as inventing new things for the show. I don't feel like the show suffered for it, as it pulled together what was originally a very fragmented narrative into a cohesive whole. If they do half as well with the Wheel of Time I'll be a happy camper.

MammonAzrael

2021-09-13, 12:19 PM

This or a portal stone world are honestly the best ways to think about it. This is a setting where the same 7 ages repeat endlessly after all.

I can't describe what an incredibly hardcore move it would be to end this series with Rand dying and a voice whispering "I have won again, Lews Therin." I would have so much respect for that.

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-13, 12:21 PM

Blackhawk748

2021-09-13, 12:27 PM

I forget all the supporting quotes, but the Dusty Wheel podcast showed how (cover art notwithstanding) brown Egwene and Nynaeve can/do align with what we're told in the books.

Some of the changes are definitely more contradictory however, like Siuan, but I don't mind those either.

I wouldn't be shocked. Jordan liked having non normal (for us) hair and skin color combos. Like, the Aiel have a bunch of redheads and IIRC they have a darker skin tone, which is not a normal combination.

I did always envisage Perrin kinda looking like a guy I know who had a big mop of curly hair, but the guy they went with has the overall size down if nothing else.

Psyren

2021-09-13, 12:39 PM

I can't describe what an incredibly hardcore move it would be to end this series with Rand dying and a voice whispering "I have won again, Lews Therin." I would have so much respect for that.

While I don't totally disagree, the actual ending to the series is too good to pass up seeing on screen for me :smallsmile:

And if the show does really well, we may even explore the post-TG world where The Aiel may end up enslaved/eradicated, the Black and White towers join forces, the Ogier use the Book of Translation etc.

Rodin posted a wiki link further up that's collected all of Judkins' answers during various AMAs on social media (twitter, instagram, etc.)

Again, for posterity: https://wot-prime.fandom.com/wiki/Rafe_Judkins/Quotes

As to minor details I'm looking forward to: whether or not they'll cast Americans for the Seanchan :V

I missed that link, thanks!

The Seanchan having US southern accents feels like it will just be too fun to pass up so I really hope they do this. So many fantasy settings skew towards British mores/actors for the main region, with the "exotic" lands then defaulting to some pastiche of Asian/Middle Eastern/African - see also Westeros vs. Essos, Khanduras vs. Kehjistan, etc. For the Seanchan to sail in going "Bow to the Empress, y'all!" all over the place will turn that cliché on its head in an instant.

I wouldn't be shocked. Jordan liked having non normal (for us) hair and skin color combos. Like, the Aiel have a bunch of redheads and IIRC they have a darker skin tone, which is not a normal combination.

I did always envisage Perrin kinda looking like a guy I know who had a big mop of curly hair, but the guy they went with has the overall size down if nothing else.

One theory about Siuan I saw on reddit:

She's darker with what appear to be elaborate tattoos on her chest - perhaps they are making her a Sea Folk in this version rather than a Tairen peasant, in order to more strongly tie in that people to the main cast, as in the books they are pretty tangential other than the Bowl. That would be a heavy departure from the lore but might make for a tighter story overall.

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-13, 01:02 PM

snowblizz

2021-09-13, 01:03 PM

Like, the Aiel have a bunch of redheads and IIRC they have a darker skin tone, which is not a normal combination.

The Aiel are fair-skinned, think Irish.... until they get sunburnt at any rate.....

This is someone reporting back a question asked at some panel years ago:

Robert Jordan
He made the Aiel look Irish because he thought it was kind of funny. He doesn't like the fact that hardened desert warriors are always described as looking a certain way, so he used the opposite description.

One of the very main ideas of RJ's work is that he heavily mixed up real world stuff in ways that wasn't too "natural" so things are familiar but combined in odd ways. This world is the Age of Legends, that maybe was more uniformly like ours, and scattered everything around so people and cultures sorta got shifted around. The mix and match of e.g. building styles is part of that. People we would associate with certain styles and cultures don't have them. People don't look like we expect them to form the places they live in. The world is all broken apart and things shuffled around.

TheStranger

2021-09-13, 01:37 PM

I always read the Two Rivers as a having a Mediterranean or Middle Eastern level of skin tone, personally. Rand in the books has fairer skin than the norm, but not so much that it’s obvious except where he’s not tanned. If he were the one ginger in a village of black people, it wouldn’t be his hair and eye color that people comment on.

My only issue with Perrin being black is purely intellectual. He’s from a district with a population of maybe a few thousand that’s been mostly isolated for about 2,000 years. My guess is that genetic variation in the Two Rivers is barely enough to avoid serious inbreeding. Whatever the dominant skin tone in the Two Rivers is, I’d guess there isn’t a lot of variation among families. But in terms of casting for the show, that’s a complete non-issue.

I think RJ said at one point that the Aiel were meant to look Irish as a deliberate subversion of what we expect desert warriors to look like. They’re always described as heavily tanned but pale-skinned otherwise, I think. Edit: yep, that’s the quote.

And yeah, the Seanchan accent is described as a thick drawl in enough places that I’d be a little disappointed if they didn’t have southern accents. Though that does raise a question - if somebody is watching the show in Texas, what will they think about the Seanchan being the only people without accents?

Psyren

2021-09-13, 02:35 PM

At least we're already getting a defiance of the first part. Nice diverse cast, and it looks like they're pulling a lot of cultural diversity in for the set and costume design as well. Lan's warder clothing seems to be clearly styled after hanbok, the probable Dragonsworn in the trailer have a mix of outfits including some that look distinctly Chinese, and the aerial shots of Tar Valon clearly show Middle-Eastern style domes and minarets sharing the skyline with European style villas (appropriate for such a cosmopolitan city at the center of the political world).

I love the idea that Ogier just went ham as far as architectural styles sourced from our Age, whether or not they even knew or realized that :smallbiggrin:

But I just happened to notice that most of the main cast are mostly Britain and Europe-based (Daniel Henney being a notable exception) so I was hoping their casting director might cross the Atlantic as well for the overseas colony making its reappearance, though there are probably budget and legal reasons not to.

Not surprising, British actors are just in vogue for this sort of thing. GoT, The Witcher, Shadow & BoneCastlevania, Warrior Nun, the list goes on.
(All the more reason, in my view, to make the Seanchan as violently American-sounding as they can to really shake things up.)

Siuan: even if that theory is incorrect, the casting feels right to me. Tear is to the south and mentioned as being quite hot and humid, and we have existing examples of dark-skinned Tairens (Juilin, most notably) already present in the books.

Let me be clear - even if she happens to "just" be a dark-skinned Tairen I'm here for it. But the tattoo seems very elaborate (not to mention prominently framed) to not have any real significance beyond aesthetics either. I could be wrong of course.

My only issue with Perrin being black is purely intellectual. He’s from a district with a population of maybe a few thousand that’s been mostly isolated for about 2,000 years. My guess is that genetic variation in the Two Rivers is barely enough to avoid serious inbreeding. Whatever the dominant skin tone in the Two Rivers is, I’d guess there isn’t a lot of variation among families.

1) Manetheren was a massive cosmopolitan empire, big enough at its peak to contain swathes of three other modern nations (Ghealdan, Amadicia, Tarabon and a decent slice of Andor), so even as isolated as their Two Rivers descendants may have gotten there is still plenty of room for variation.

2) This notion about how the Two Rivers should lack diversity has been debunked (with citations) on numerous podcasts and fan circles by folks much more knowledgeable than I as soon as the casting was announced, here's an example. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr7lDwNU770) 14:30 is the specific Emond's Field discussion, but among other citations brought up in that video are included the fact that Ishara - the queen who founded Andor and from whom every Andoran high noble house that wants to claim the Lion Throne descends - is explicitly described as being as dark-skinned as an Atha'an Miere in Path of Daggers.

TL;DR it's best we put the erroneous notion of an all or even mostly-white Two Rivers out of our minds as soon as possible, that was never supported by the text.

Though that does raise a question - if somebody is watching the show in Texas, what will they think about the Seanchan being the only people without accents?

The same that British people watching almost any other fantasy show these days would think I imagine :smalltongue:

Gnoman

2021-09-13, 02:49 PM

One theory about Siuan I saw on reddit:

She's darker with what appear to be elaborate tattoos on her chest - perhaps they are making her a Sea Folk in this version rather than a Tairen peasant, in order to more strongly tie in that people to the main cast, as in the books they are pretty tangential other than the Bowl. That would be a heavy departure from the lore but might make for a tighter story overall.

That would be an incredibly drastic change. Not out of the question, of course, but there's no way to maintain the dual "the Amyrlin is the center of the Tower" and "The Tower has no idea that channelers are common and honored among the Sea Folk" with a Sea Folk Amyrlin. The Suian we see wouldn't keep a secret like that, and there is no way she wouldn't know. This theory would require a massive rewrite of almost every Tower plotline.

Psyren

2021-09-13, 02:57 PM

That would be an incredibly drastic change. Not out of the question, of course, but there's no way to maintain the dual "the Amyrlin is the center of the Tower" and "The Tower has no idea that channelers are common and honored among the Sea Folk" with a Sea Folk Amyrlin. The Suian we see wouldn't keep a secret like that, and there is no way she wouldn't know. This theory would require a massive rewrite of almost every Tower plotline.

Nah, just a rewrite of the Sea Folk plotline. Personally I'd rather they axe the Sea Folk entirely, but if they're going to keep them this might be a way to streamline things.

What did the secret really add to the lore anyway? They did nothing of consequence after the Bowl, and Moiraine figured out the twist on her own anyway. What's the point?

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-13, 03:03 PM

It might be nice to not have them be the most unlikeable culture this side of the Seanchan.

TheStranger

2021-09-13, 03:40 PM

Manetheren was a massive cosmopolitan empire, big enough at its peak to contain swathes of three other modern nations (Ghealdan, Amadicia, Tarabon and a decent slice of Andor), so even as isolated as their Two Rivers descendants may have gotten there is still plenty of room for variation.

2) This notion about how the Two Rivers should lack diversity has been debunked (with citations) on numerous podcasts and fan circles by folks much more knowledgeable than I as soon as the casting was announced, here's an example. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr7lDwNU770) 14:30 is the specific Emond's Field discussion, but among other citations brought up in that video are included the fact that Ishara - the queen who founded Andor and from whom every Andoran high noble house that wants to claim the Lion Throne descends - is explicitly described as being as dark-skinned as an Atha'an Miere in Path of Daggers.

TL;DR it's best we put the erroneous notion of an all or even mostly-white Two Rivers out of our minds as soon as possible, that was never supported by the text.

I 100% agree that Manetheren was probably cosmopolitan and maybe even mostly black. I’m not arguing for a mostly white Two Rivers, just a mostly-homogeneous Two Rivers. Whatever ethnic diversity you had at the fall of Manetheren seems like it should even out into a relatively uniform shade of brown over 2,000 years of relative isolation, and the text generally supports there being a common “look” among the population. My reading of the text is that the prevailing skin tone is more swarthy than brown, but that has nothing to do with how the Emond’s Field crew is described and everything to do with the fact that Rand is generally described as being remarkable for hair/eye color rather than skin color, and that Tam isn’t *obviously* not his father. Otherwise, I’d agree that there’s no reason the standard Two Rivers ethnicity couldn’t be closer to black than white based on the descriptions of the natives.

I want to be clear that I’m not complaining about Perrin being cast as black. It’s just a bit of fridge logic on my part.

Psyren

2021-09-13, 04:00 PM

Blackhawk748

2021-09-13, 04:03 PM

I generally had the Two Rivers folk as kind of "General Mediterranean" look with maybe some slightly lighter hair shades, but its not like Jordan did much for describing a person's appearance more than once. He much preferred to talk about their clothes.

Dear lord the clothes descriptions.

russdm

2021-09-13, 04:14 PM

My most abiding memory about this books was trying to find aircraft and computers and such.

As it turns out, that was Terry Brooks Shannarra, which was built on after our own world, not wheel of time. I still can't remember how I got that confused in my head.

Also, I think that I ended up just started ignoring plots, like everything to do with the Aes Sedai (Did the White and Black Towers really provide us with something? was there a point of exploring or having all the many Ajahs?), all the Dagger-Guy from that cursed city that Mat Idiot-Ball to get, the entire Seanchan part, Mat and Mat's plotline.

What exactly did these things add again?

I spent more time wanting to read about Lan, and Nynaeve and Min. And about the efforts to stop the evil one/shadow

TheStranger

2021-09-13, 04:30 PM

For it to end up "mostly homogenous" though, you'd have to know the makeup of the original group that settled the area that would become the TR. That's information we just don't have.

The closest we have is Elaida in Eye of the World, doubting Rand's claims to be from the Two Rivers based on his light eyes, ginger hair, extreme height and pale skin color. Not only does that actually strengthen the argument for the rest of the main cast being darker-skinned, the word she uses for the latter two attributes specifically is "seldom", which of course proves that there are other folks there as pale as Rand - just that it doesn't happen often. Ergo, diversity.

(I know you're not complaining about the casting - I'm merely pointing out the flaws in the fridge logic being employed.)

I don’t see why the original makeup matters, other than affecting the general shade of brown you end up with. Unless you’re saying that 2,000 years isn’t enough for the gene pool to be pretty well mixed? My gut says it is, but I could be wrong. An expert in population genetics could tell us.

I actually just reread that part of TEotW, and I interpret Elaida’s quote as saying that Rand’s coloring is pretty much unheard of in the Two Rivers. If there was any meaningful diversity of skin colors, she wouldn’t take it as casting doubt on his story.

That said, the idea that Rand’s coloring came from his mother is perfectly plausible in general (if Tam isn’t particularly dark-skinned). The Two Rivers is isolated, but people do come and go sometimes. If Perrin’s father were a merchant’s guard who took up with a local woman, for instance, that would justify him being black when the rest of the cast isn’t. That’s not supported by the books (per Moiraine, the old blood of Manetheren is strong and pure in almost all these young men), but it’s an entirely valid reason for a little bit of diversity in the region.

Blackhawk748

2021-09-13, 04:37 PM

Also, I think that I ended up just started ignoring plots, like everything to do with the Aes Sedai (Did the White and Black Towers really provide us with something? was there a point of exploring or having all the many Ajahs?), all the Dagger-Guy from that cursed city that Mat Idiot-Ball to get, the entire Seanchan part, Mat and Mat's plotline.

What exactly did these things add again?

In order:

Neat word building and seeing how much of a twisted ball of plots the Aes Sedai have turned into

Mat is fun and following him around is also fun.

I do agree that the Black Tower was horrifically underutilized and feels very much like an abandoned plot line.

Tvtyrant

2021-09-13, 05:13 PM

I don’t see why the original makeup matters, other than affecting the general shade of brown you end up with. Unless you’re saying that 2,000 years isn’t enough for the gene pool to be pretty well mixed? My gut says it is, but I could be wrong. An expert in population genetics could tell us.

I actually just reread that part of TEotW, and I interpret Elaida’s quote as saying that Rand’s coloring is pretty much unheard of in the Two Rivers. If there was any meaningful diversity of skin colors, she wouldn’t take it as casting doubt on his story.

That said, the idea that Rand’s coloring came from his mother is perfectly plausible in general (if Tam isn’t particularly dark-skinned). The Two Rivers is isolated, but people do come and go sometimes. If Perrin’s father were a merchant’s guard who took up with a local woman, for instance, that would justify him being black when the rest of the cast isn’t. That’s not supported by the books (per Moiraine, the old blood of Manetheren is strong and pure in almost all these young men), but it’s an entirely valid reason for a little bit of diversity in the region.

Real world reasons for ethnic drift don't apply in fantasy-land. The Aiel would be dark because of terrible skin cancer rates, the two rivers would be light from rickets. Phenotype shifts are fairly rapid from even small fatality differences.

All of which is to say, they aren't aiming for demographic accuracy. They are aiming for a modern cosmopolitan city look for audience reasons. Like not-katanas being better in WoT then straight swords, it is effectively a genre convention.

Rynjin

2021-09-13, 05:29 PM

As to minor details I'm looking forward to: whether or not they'll cast Americans for the Seanchan :V

As I recall the Seanchan are ethnically Asian, but were taken over by Hawkwing's empire, which had the Texan accents.

So it's a good opportunity to cast people of Asian descent and also not have to go too far afield for casting.

My most abiding memory about this books was trying to find aircraft and computers and such.

As it turns out, that was Terry Brooks Shannarra, which was built on after our own world, not wheel of time. I still can't remember how I got that confused in my head.

Also, I think that I ended up just started ignoring plots, like everything to do with the Aes Sedai (Did the White and Black Towers really provide us with something? was there a point of exploring or having all the many Ajahs?), all the Dagger-Guy from that cursed city that Mat Idiot-Ball to get, the entire Seanchan part, Mat and Mat's plotline.

What exactly did these things add again?

I spent more time wanting to read about Lan, and Nynaeve and Min. And about the efforts to stop the evil one/shadow

Yeah, on the contrary, Mat was my favorite character to follow and I absolutely ****ing despised Nyanaeve (and Egwene for that matter).

Maybe we don't make broad sweeping cuts to the series' content based on one person's taste, mm?

Gnoman

2021-09-13, 05:43 PM

Nah, just a rewrite of the Sea Folk plotline. Personally I'd rather they axe the Sea Folk entirely, but if they're going to keep them this might be a way to streamline things.

What did the secret really add to the lore anyway? They did nothing of consequence after the Bowl, and Moiraine figured out the twist on her own anyway. What's the point?

For thousands of years, the Aes Sedai have believed that they are the only organization of women that use the Power. This is fundamental to their entire structure. The Sea Folk Windfinders (along with the Aeil Wise Ones, the Seanchan Damane, and the Kin) were every bit as earthshaking a secret as if somebody in Middle Earth found a suitcase full of Rings of Power. Having the head of the Tower be aware of this would be as fundamentally wrong as if she were Black Ajah.

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-13, 06:24 PM

As I recall the Seanchan are ethnically Asian, but were taken over by Hawkwing's empire, which had the Texan accents.

So it's a good opportunity to cast people of Asian descent and also not have to go too far afield for casting.

Not quite. The Seanchan are described as being ethnically diverse, I think even more so than the Westlands, due to being a centralized, continent-spanning empire rather than a collection of independent nations. What we see of them in the Return is a cross-section of all the different ethnicities of people that make up their military and nobility, drawn from across their full territory. Culturally and aesthetically, they borrow a lot from East Asia, specifically Imperial Japan and China in particular terms of their clothing design and some cultural baggage (but also from Byzantium, Persia, and the antebellum American South) but in terms of the actual people there's a high degree of physical variation, which is fairly unremarked upon. Tuon and Anath* are black, but Selucia is described as creamy-skinned and blonde. Suroth is described as having black hair and eyes, which could well be East Asian. Egeanin has fair skin, dark hair, and blue eyes.

The only time we ever see a Seanchan dwell on national origin or ethnicity among their own people the same way Westlanders do is with Ajimbura, who is explicitly noted to be from a very recently subjugated people. What I generally infer from the Seanchan perspective is that the way you look or the color of your skin has become a largely irrelevant detail; there is one Empire, and all peoples are part of it. They have plenty of other ways to brutally segregate and dehumanize people, but race and (and incidentally, sex) aren't among them.

The Seanchan having American accents I don't think came specifically from Hawkwing's empire specifically, since Hawkwing is a speaking character and I don't recall him being noted to have the drawl, but more a series of cultural references: Seanchan occupies America's place geographically, historically (in a demented sort of way - if America had ever launched a full reconquista of the Old World as Seanchan does), and somewhat pointedly, culturally - the Seanchan being a notable slave society.

*okay so she's not technically Seanchan, but her skin color is given so little regard by all the Seanchan around her that I think it counts

Mechalich

2021-09-13, 07:19 PM

The Seanchan having American accents I don't think came specifically from Hawkwing's empire specifically, since Hawkwing is a speaking character and I don't recall him being noted to have the drawl, but more a series of cultural references: Seanchan occupies America's place geographically, historically (in a demented sort of way - if America had ever launched a full reconquista of the Old World as Seanchan does), and somewhat pointedly, culturally - the Seanchan being a notable slave society.

Seanchan slavery - in which there are significant gradations of slave status and many slaves have high levels of authority including over free people and slavery has no ethnic basis, is clearly not based on the the Antebellum American model of slavery and more on the way slavery operated in Classical Antiquity and large East Asian states. The status of the Deathwatch Guard, for example, a group of slaves who not only form an elite military unit but may rise to command rank and command large armies of free soldiers, is completely antithetical to the antebellum form of slavery. Rather it is slavery in Shaara - regularly referred to as 'human animals' - that hews closer to that model.

Rynjin

2021-09-13, 07:35 PM

Not quite. The Seanchan are described as being ethnically diverse, I think even more so than the Westlands, due to being a centralized, continent-spanning empire rather than a collection of independent nations. What we see of them in the Return is a cross-section of all the different ethnicities of people that make up their military and nobility, drawn from across their full territory. Culturally and aesthetically, they borrow a lot from East Asia, specifically Imperial Japan and China in particular terms of their clothing design and some cultural baggage (but also from Byzantium, Persia, and the antebellum American South) but in terms of the actual people there's a high degree of physical variation, which is fairly unremarked upon. Tuon and Anath* are black, but Selucia is described as creamy-skinned and blonde. Suroth is described as having black hair and eyes, which could well be East Asian. Egeanin has fair skin, dark hair, and blue eyes.

Well, Asian peoples in general are very ethnically diverse so this doesn't really contradict anything I think. Tuon is very dark skinned, but that could mean she's "black" in the sense of being of African descent...or maybe she's Thai, Filipino, Indian, etc.

Psyren

2021-09-13, 07:35 PM

I don’t see why the original makeup matters, other than affecting the general shade of brown you end up with. Unless you’re saying that 2,000 years isn’t enough for the gene pool to be pretty well mixed? My gut says it is, but I could be wrong. An expert in population genetics could tell us.

When you find one let me know.

For thousands of years, the Aes Sedai have believed that they are the only organization of women that use the Power. This is fundamental to their entire structure. The Sea Folk Windfinders (along with the Aeil Wise Ones, the Seanchan Damane, and the Kin) were every bit as earthshaking a secret as if somebody in Middle Earth found a suitcase full of Rings of Power. Having the head of the Tower be aware of this would be as fundamentally wrong as if she were Black Ajah.

First off, no. They knew they weren't alone, they were just convinced that poking into those other cultures wasn't worth the effort. Getting to the Aiel to try and snoop would have just resulted in a lot of dead Aes Sedai (the waste is harsh enough to even kill Wise Ones after all), the Sea Folk DO send channelers to the Tower (weak ones in the books, but Siuan could easily be one of those without changing much), and the Tower DOES know about the Kin.

Second, none of what you said answers my question. As written in the books, what vital narrative purpose do the Sea Folk serve? The Tower's structure, by your own admission, wasn't affected one iota by what they knew or didn't know about these other societies, theirs especially. The Bowl of the Winds was effectively a filler arc. The only important thing it did was get Mat in contact with Tuon, which could be accomplished in other ways without nearly as much padding. The Sea Folk in the books are an annoying waste of space.

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-13, 07:41 PM

Seanchan slavery - in which there are significant gradations of slave status and many slaves have high levels of authority including over free people and slavery has no ethnic basis, is clearly not based on the the Antebellum American model of slavery and more on the way slavery operated in Classical Antiquity and large East Asian states. The status of the Deathwatch Guard, for example, a group of slaves who not only form an elite military unit but may rise to command rank and command large armies of free soldiers, is completely antithetical to the antebellum form of slavery. Rather it is slavery in Shaara - regularly referred to as 'human animals' - that hews closer to that model.

You're correct of course, and I did note that the Seanchan draw across a broad spectrum of cultural references.

Seanchan slavery does not totally resemble in large part the race-based chattel slavery of the Americas, though there are mentions of slave markets where da'covale can be bought and sold - so there are some classes of slave that do function more as chattel, with certain slaves owned by the Crystal Throne, like the aforementioned Deathwatch Guard as well as the Seekers being unique cases. Damane may be bought and sold as well - I believe Egeanin in her first introduction considers it a point of pride that she owns one - and while that's not specifically race based, the enslavement of an entire group of people based on a specific inborn trait is... well there are parallels that can be drawn.

Without following the rabbit hole too much further down though, since I find the subject distasteful, all I mean to suggest is that, regardless of the specific details, seeing as the man was from the American South himself, the confluence of the presence of a predominant slave-based society, where their practice of institutional slavery, independent of form, is repeatedly highlighted as an example of their villainy and otherness (slavery being a distinct enigma to the Westlands, who have no form of it, and where the very concept of 'people as property' is anathema to moral, right-minded people like Mat Cauthon) with various forms of American-coding (their geographic location, history, and the all-but-named signature drawl) is a collected irony that couldn't have been arrived at totally by happenstance.

Corvus

2021-09-13, 08:07 PM

My main issue with the series is it is on Amazon, whom I am in no hurry to give any money too.

The trailer itself made it look a little too generic. If you didn't already know it was WoT nothing really jumped out and screamed it.

And no sign of Thom or Loial.

I would have preferred if Moraine and Lan were closer to their correct heights, Lan being much, much taller than the very short Moraine, but that is a minor thing.

Seanchan strikes me as being a little bit like Rome - race really wasn't an issue and anyone could earn Roman citizenship. Rome was very cosmopolitain.

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-13, 08:35 PM

To return to topics that aren't, uh, discussing the details of fictional slavery, some other things I'm interested in:

- how they deal with Mat in the first few seasons. Because let's be honest, Mat for the first two books is kind of a tool. Are they going to have him be an unlikeable jerkwad for such a significant early part of the show?
- Perrin's characterization. Since he, more so than the other characters, is a deeply introspective and internally focused character, and like 90% of his characterization and development comes through his internal dialogue.
- whether they're going to keep the whole ta'veren thing. It's a great, deliciously meta concept in the context of the books, but might come across as a little too esoteric for tv audiences. The main characters can still be the Pattern's Special Children without there needing to be an in-universe study of it, and the singling out of the trio when the girls (Egwene specifically) have equally meteoric and improbable character trajectories was always a little odd.
- this answer from Rafe:

No

(5 hours of backlash later) Let’s just say I’m much more interested in polyamory than polygamy. And maybe give me a little more credit than assuming I’m gonna gut that entire story and ruin everything off a one word answer? ;)

The Elayviendha (Avilayne?) neurons in my brain are exploding right now.

Mechalich

2021-09-13, 09:11 PM

With regard to Rand's romances, it's simply not an issue for now, especially given that it looks like Elayne won't even appear in Season One and while Min will, she's likely to be a blink-and-you'll-miss-it presence in one or at most two episodes. Rand vaguely falls out of love with Egwene over the course of the first three books, but he also barely sees her during them - when they reunite in Tear at the beginning of book four they're both completely different people than who they were leaving the Two Rivers.

There are hints of the Elayne and Aviendha romances in book four, but Elayne is immediately separated from Rand for a very long time - after leaving Tear they don't see each other again until Rand visits her in Caemlyn which is in book nine. Aviendha's relationship with Rand doesn't become romantic - a development that due to circumstances is extremely sudden - until midway through book five. It would be perfectly possible for the show to completely drop those romances between seasons four and five and it would disrupt basically nothing previously established to that point.

Overall WoT's romantic elements are rather late developing. Mat, for all his vaguely playboy-ish behavior doesn't get involved in any sort of substantial relationship until he gets stuck in Ebou Dar in book six and doesn't meet Tuon until book eight. Rand's relationship with Min doesn't become serious until book six. Egwene's 'relationship' with Gawyn barely manages to unfold at all. Nynaeve's romance with Lan just sort of appears as a fait accompli and then they spend most of the series dealing with the bizarre obstacles the warder bond throws out in its direction. None of the minor romances Siuan/Gareth, Moraine/Thom, etc. even materialize as possibilities until the later books. Somewhat hilariously, it's only Perrin who actually gets anywhere significant in terms of romantic relationships in the first four books - and because he's so far ahead of everyone else Jordan had to continually hammer at that relationship in order to force drama.

I wouldn't be surprised if the show tried to accelerate some of the romantic elements early on, especially Rand/Min, simply to prevent the show from coming across as shockingly sexless for the first three seasons.

Tvtyrant

2021-09-13, 09:28 PM

Psyren

2021-09-14, 12:29 AM

And no sign of Thom or Loial.

Both have been cast (https://www.tor.com/2019/12/04/wheel-of-time-tv-show-adds-thom-merrilin-loial-padan-fain-logain/), we just haven't gotten them in the promo material yet.

- how they deal with Mat in the first few seasons. Because let's be honest, Mat for the first two books is kind of a tool. Are they going to have him be an unlikeable jerkwad for such a significant early part of the show?
- Perrin's characterization. Since he, more so than the other characters, is a deeply introspective and internally focused character, and like 90% of his characterization and development comes through his internal dialogue.
- whether they're going to keep the whole ta'veren thing. It's a great, deliciously meta concept in the context of the books, but might come across as a little too esoteric for tv audiences. The main characters can still be the Pattern's Special Children without there needing to be an in-universe study of it, and the singling out of the trio when the girls (Egwene specifically) have equally meteoric and improbable character trajectories was always a little odd.

1) We've already got signs of Mat being different from the get-go here. The very first shot we see of him in the trailer is playing with dice after all :smallsmile:

2) Perrin is the character I'm hoping gets the most changes. Like seriously, I don't know how Jordan made a Matrix-controlling wolf-king so boring but he sure found a way.

3) I actually always liked that early line from Moiraine where she believed Egwene and Nynaeve were on the cusp of being ta'veren themselves. Certainly it would explain a lot about their respective meteoric rises if they were just in the club too. If we're going to emphasize their protagonist-ness as much as the trailer is hinting (especially Egwene's), that's a great reason to lean in.

I wouldn't be surprised if the show tried to accelerate some of the romantic elements early on, especially Rand/Min, simply to prevent the show from coming across as shockingly sexless for the first three seasons.

Judging by the trailer I don't think we have to worry about "sexless" :smalltongue:

Anteros

2021-09-14, 12:51 AM

Brandon Sanderson said a neat thing a while back that I like, which is that you can think of the show as another "turning of the Wheel". There look to be a lot of changes to stuff, and the showrunners seem to be taking a lot of liberty to shuffle things around significantly to make things work for TV, which so far I'm feeling pretty optimistic for.

I feel the opposite about it. I want to see the Wheel of Time, not someone's fan fiction re-write. I understand you have to change some things to make it work for tv, but they seem to be taking more liberties than I would like.

If Brandon "rewrite the magic system and change the protagonist in the last book" Sanderson says we need to think of it as a completely different turning, you know things are going to be wild.

Psyren

2021-09-14, 12:58 AM

I want to see the Wheel of Time, not someone's fan fiction re-write.

Then I have great news! Your books haven't gone anywhere.

Rynjin

2021-09-14, 01:14 AM

Corvus

2021-09-14, 01:16 AM

Then I have great news! Your books haven't gone anywhere.

Then generally expectation is that when someone does an adaption that they won't play fast and loose with the setting, characters or plot. If they go all fan fiction it tends not to be received well. You just have to look at S8 GoT or The Watch, which was so loosely based on Discworld that if you changed names it'd be barely recognisable from the source material. Just go with your own IP in that case, rather than trying to piggyback off name status.

In the same manner, when shows are said to be 'based on' historical events you want them to actually reflect what happened in reality, not rewrite history.

Psyren

2021-09-14, 01:42 AM

That's such a disingenuous argument and I'm tired of seeing it. I'm not sure where this trend started, where wanting an adaptation to hew close to the thing it's based on became a controversial opinion.

Understandably, some things need to be changed in adaptation. But when one of those things become large plot details and characters, just make your own property instead of ****ing up someone else'.

Yes, "the books will always be there", but a lot of fans want to see the books come to life. There's not a damn thing wrong with that and I get more and more annoyed every time someone says there is.

It's equally disingenuous to dismiss any adaptation that makes changes you don't like, however practical for the realities of its medium, as "fan-fiction." Rafe Judkins isn't just a "fan," he is an official agent of the license-holders for the work in question - whether you like that or not.

Mechalich

2021-09-14, 01:49 AM

Then generally expectation is that when someone does an adaption that they won't play fast and loose with the setting, characters or plot. If they go all fan fiction it tends not to be received well. You just have to look at S8 GoT or The Watch, which was so loosely based on Discworld that if you changed names it'd be barely recognisable from the source material. Just go with your own IP in that case, rather than trying to piggyback off name status.

In the same manner, when shows are said to be 'based on' historical events you want them to actually reflect what happened in reality, not rewrite history.

Audiences are also generally more susceptible to changes that are at least plausibly necessary due to the needs of the new medium, rather than simply the whim of the adaptors. For example, some amount of cutting, condensing, and conglomerating is obviously necessary to bring this to TV. Likewise, certain character and set designs will need to be changed in order to allow them to physically exist and certain roles will be adjusted to accommodate actor scheduling, ages (the common practice of 'aging up' young characters has much to do with child labor laws), and in some cases makeup. The WoT trailer seems to suggest that Trollocs are going to be more or less functionally human from the neck down in the show, which is definitely not how they appear in the books, but absolutely makes things easier on the stunt crew that has to play them and drastically reduces makeup and costume expenses.

There's also the issue that the more an adaptation departs from the source material, the less the source material is able to guide and support later portions of the adaptation and the more the result is likely to become some bizarre Frankenstein's Monster of a production that falls apart under its own weight. This is especially true with something as unbelievably massive as WoT. Any changes made early on will reverberate further down. This seems particularly relevant in the early seasons because WoT is actually pretty darned conventional early on. All of the Randland cultures in the first three books are fairly standard fantasy Europe derivatives, and the glimpse of the Seanchan in book two is quite limited. The characters hew fairly close to archetype and there's a whole lot of very Tolkienian journeying going on in service of a fairly straightforward good vs. evil battle (Ishamael even repeatedly appears as a Sauron-esque figure with burning eyes and everything). It's only later on that things start to get weird.

It's equally disingenuous to dismiss any adaptation that makes changes you don't like, however practical for the realities of its medium, as "fan-fiction." Rafe Judkins isn't just a "fan," he is an official agent of the license-holders for the work in question - whether you like that or not.

'Fan-fiction' should not be used as a term of denigration generally, since all it does is demarcate legally authorized versus not legally authorized use of a work, something that is purely dependent upon copyright law.

That being said, there's a difference between an adaptation and a rewrite, reboot, spin-off, or 'inspired by' series. The fans have a perfectly reasonable expectation of fidelity to the source material when possible.

Rynjin

2021-09-14, 01:52 AM

It's equally disingenuous to dismiss any adaptation that makes changes you don't like, however practical for the realities of its medium, as "fan-fiction." Rafe Judkins isn't just a "fan," he is an official agent of the license-holders for the work in question - whether you like that or not.

Any adaptation, good or bad, is glorified fan fiction. I don't have the same inherent respect for "license holders" as you seem to.

Many signs point to this adaptation being good, mind you, but it's not going to be good BECAUSE someone holds the license. That's completely irrelevant.

If you want proof, see the last attempt made at adapting the Wheel of Time (which was so ****ing terrible the license got stripped from the previous "holder" because it pissed off Jordan's wife so much). If you can find it anywhere, I think it's been scrubbed form the upper parts of the web.

A highlight includes Billy Zane cast as Lews Therin.

Psyren

2021-09-14, 02:10 AM

'Fan-fiction' should not be used as a term of denigration generally, since all it does is demarcate legally authorized versus not legally authorized use of a work, something that is purely dependent upon copyright law.

Perhaps it shouldn't be, but the connotation is still there. And as you rightly pointed out, it's incorrect in this case even wholly divorced from considerations of quality and going off pure semantic meaning, because what Rafe is making is an official adaptation.

Saph

2021-09-14, 02:45 AM

That's such a disingenuous argument and I'm tired of seeing it. I'm not sure where this trend started, where wanting an adaptation to hew close to the thing it's based on became a controversial opinion.

In the case of Wheel of Time, it's definitely not controversial. The vast majority of fans do want a faithful adaption.

Comments like "if you don't like it, read the books" don't represent fan opinion, they're just a way to dismiss other people's opinions.

Psyren

2021-09-14, 12:28 PM

In the case of Wheel of Time, it's definitely not controversial. The vast majority of fans do want a faithful adaption.

Comments like "if you don't like it, read the books" don't represent fan opinion, they're just a way to dismiss other people's opinions.

Yet calling this official adaptation "fanfiction" somehow isn't dismissive? Discourse is a two-way street.

Any adaptation, good or bad, is glorified fan fiction. I don't have the same inherent respect for "license holders" as you seem to.

Many signs point to this adaptation being good, mind you, but it's not going to be good BECAUSE someone holds the license. That's completely irrelevant.

Sure, but your epithet handily skipped over all those other indicators of quality - Rafe's resume, Amazon's track record and selection process (previous Amazon adaptations like The Boys, The Expanse, Invincible, Good Omens etc have all ranged from solid to excellent), etc.

You just have to look at S8 GoT or The Watch, which was so loosely based on Discworld that if you changed names it'd be barely recognisable from the source material.

The thing about GoT was that it was actually an excellent adaptation. The problems arose when they ran out of stuff to adapt around S6, and were forced to start making things up themselves - D and D were great adapters but terrible writers. Whatever other challenges WoT may face, that at least won't be one of them, the books are a complete product and the ending was generally well-received.

Rodin

2021-09-14, 12:45 PM

For me it depends on degree, and how well done the final product is. The Witcher had to go through somersaults to justify showing the first book (mostly set decades before Ciri was born) while simultaneously introducing Ciri without cramming her entire arc into a couple of episodes. Ciri also isn't around for much of the first book featuring her. Therefore, Ciri gets "fanfiction" to do while she's running around without Geralt, and Geralt's stories are shown out of time with hers. The result is a merging of the two book that works very well, even if it did throw some of the audience off. Ditto Cahir, whose early characterization in the show is quite different from the books. However, this is largely because Cahir didn't HAVE any characterization for the first two books he was in - he was basically a Nazgul. The show needs to introduce him, so it gives him plots to sink his teeth into and gives him a role at the Battle of Sodden. Yennefer's past isn't discussed by her until the very end of the books, so they put it in at the start to give a smoother introduction to her character.

Etc, etc. There's a lot that's in the show that wasn't in the books, but it all served a purpose to make the TV adaptation work better. All the main story beats were present, they just got shuffled around a bit.

You see the same with the early Game of Thrones seasons. There are plots that play out quite differently from the books, but the aim is to always keep the most important events intact and move the characters to where they were in the books. It's only in the later seasons that they started going off on their own entirely with less than great results.

For Wheel of Time the sequence can be fairly vague and still leave me happy. Rand needs to be the Dragon, Mat needs to get the Dagger, they go to the Eye of the World, go on The Great Hunt, and then head off to get Callandor to prove Rand is The Dragon Reborn. There's a lot of flex in there to tell your own stories, and I'm fine with that as long as the writing that replaces it is good. That's where a lot of adaptations fail - you have to either stick to the original or be better than it, and if you can't do either the justification has to be pretty darn good.

Mechalich

2021-09-14, 04:45 PM

The thing about Wheel of Time is that at it's core it is a very conventional epic fantasy. Yes there's some (okay, a lot of) weird stuff about gender roles and cultural variation, but the core plot is about a chosen one passing through a hero's journey to face the incarnation of evil, the various efforts of his allies and companions to gather together the resources necessary to win that battle when it finally happens, and the moves and countermoves as the minions of the dark one work to prevent this from happening. The central storyline is perfectly suited for TV adaptation and requires essentially no adjustment at all.

The other key aspect of WoT, from the perspective of adaptation, is that it's bloated. The books are massive, the cast sprawls across the continent, and a wide array of plots that ultimately have rather minimal importance are given tens or even hundreds of thousands of words of unnecessary detail. It's quite clear as a result that adapting WoT is about what gets cut rather than any need to add anything. This is similar to Game of Thrones, which was equally sprawling but less bloated, since Martin invested even tiny subplots with considerable importance at points, only with the advantage of knowing which plotlines don't actually matter in the end because the series is thankfully complete.

With the limited information we have, the show seems to understand this. None of the Trakands have been cast yet, suggesting that they won't appear in season one and that everything about Andor's internal politics - the second most obviously pointless plotline in the series behind the Shaido - will be curtailed significantly

russdm

2021-09-14, 08:04 PM

If you want proof, see the last attempt made at adapting the Wheel of Time (which was so ****ing terrible the license got stripped from the previous "holder" because it pissed off Jordan's wife so much). If you can find it anywhere, I think it's been scrubbed form the upper parts of the web.

A highlight includes Billy Zane cast as Lews Therin.

Now I need to find that, because seriously Billy Zane???

For Wheel of Time the sequence can be fairly vague and still leave me happy. Rand needs to be the Dragon, Mat needs to get the Dagger, they go to the Eye of the World, go on The Great Hunt, and then head off to get Callandor to prove Rand is The Dragon Reborn. There's a lot of flex in there to tell your own stories, and I'm fine with that as long as the writing that replaces it is good. That's where a lot of adaptations fail - you have to either stick to the original or be better than it, and if you can't do either the justification has to be pretty darn good.

No, no. I don't think that Mat needs to get the dagger. From my memory of reading the books, the only thing that the Dagger getting incidinent provides to make Mat go through a books worth of time being Smeagol/Gollum (Because of said Dagger) and releasing Fain/Phain/Whatshisface from the cursed city, which Mat was also warned not to ever visit, so that said guy could then go cause trouble with Rand's male channelers. And then Mat loses Dagger, loses the cursed City whatever, the guy continues to go on to cause trouble.

Mat acts pretty much like I would expect Elan to act like. Mat does something incrediably stupid (visit the cursed city despite being warned multiple times to avoid the place), does another stupid thing (takes something from the cursed city that he was warned not to visit and warned not to take anything, in fact warned to just like avoid the place) and then is stupid for a while (holds on to the dagger and tells no one about it)

later, Mat starts becoming a bard and cooler, after he loses the Dagger.

then there the guy that comes out as a result of Mat visiting the forbidden city

The other key aspect of WoT, from the perspective of adaptation, is that it's bloated. The books are massive, the cast sprawls across the continent, and a wide array of plots that ultimately have rather minimal importance are given tens or even hundreds of thousands of words of unnecessary detail.

With the limited information we have, the show seems to understand this. None of the Trakands have been cast yet, suggesting that they won't appear in season one and that everything about Andor's internal politics - the second most obviously pointless plotline in the series behind the Shaido - will be curtailed significantly

Were the Shaido that Aiel Clan(s) that captured Faile and from whom Perrin rescued? then Perrin went and tried to hunt them all down. Those Shaido?

I don't remember much of anything about the Andor other than some events and then it ends with Elayne getting the throne.

Sapphire Guard

2021-09-14, 08:28 PM

One of WOT's main selling points is how deeply it goes into the worldbuilding. Take away the bloat, and what you have left is WOT with its WOTness taken out.

Anteros

2021-09-14, 09:20 PM

Dagger: Without the dagger you lose Mat's whole motivation for at least 3 books. It explains why he acts the way he does for the first book, gives Rand a personal reason to chase the horn in book 2, and explains why Mat goes to Tar'valon in book 3 with the Aes Sedai who he dislikes instead of staying with Rand and Perrin who he is much closer to. It's also the catalyst to him getting his luck, although why is unclear. You definitely have to keep it.

Gender roles: Jordan gets a lot of unfair flack about "his views" on gender roles from people who don't realize that he's actually trying to subvert them. Don't listen to what a character says. Watch what they do. The boys will monologue about how the girls do this or that and then immediately go do that exact thing. The same is true in reverse. This is intentional. The vast majority of the time, when one of Jordan's characters is espousing some backwards view, the story goes on to show you that they're wrong. He doesn't beat you over the head with it though, so a lot of people miss what he's doing.

Blackhawk748

2021-09-14, 09:48 PM

One of WOT's main selling points is how deeply it goes into the worldbuilding. Take away the bloat, and what you have left is WOT with its WOTness taken out.

I rather agree. There's a bunch of bloat that can get cut, but the Andorian politics are actually kind of important for Elayne's character and since she and Rand are thing later and there's the whole giant battle that happens there where Rand goes all FINAL FLASH on someone with Balefire we kinda can't just sweep that under the rug.

Its weird how much some of that bloat adds to the whole thing.

Gender roles: Jordan gets a lot of unfair flack about "his views" on gender roles from people who don't realize that he's actually trying to subvert them. Don't listen to what a character says. Watch what they do. The boys will monologue about how the girls do this or that and then immediately go do that exact thing. The same is true in reverse. This is intentional. The vast majority of the time, when one of Jordan's characters is espousing some backwards view, the story goes on to show you that they're wrong. He doesn't beat you over the head with it though, so a lot of people miss what he's doing.

I always found it funny how, in private, the men and women would complain about each other and the complaints are near identical.

Rynjin

2021-09-14, 09:56 PM

Even better, it's all the hype of the original Final Flash but it actually works.

Blackhawk748

2021-09-14, 10:00 PM

Even better, it's all the hype of the original Final Flash but it actually works.

Being fair to Vegeta if he had aimed like a foot to the right it probably would have.

But yes, Balefire was so much more effective. Kinda curious how they're gonna visually do it considering it's a bar of blinding light. The effect of someone dying to it is easy enough, just flash a negative of them a few times.

Yes it'll look weird but that's the point.

Psyren

2021-09-14, 10:06 PM

Mat and the Dagger are very prominently in the trailer, and Padan Fain's casting was one of the first announced, so that plotline is a done deal.

I think comparing him to Elan isn't quite right, he's closer to Haley (greedy) but not as genre savvy as her (she'd never be caught dead grabbing a clearly cursed item.) In short, he's a farmboy bumpkin and a troublemaker. Yeah I was right there with everyone else yelling at him for taking the others wandering in the very clearly haunted city, but it fit his character just fine.

I rather agree. There's a bunch of bloat that can get cut, but the Andorian politics are actually kind of important for Elayne's character and since she and Rand are thing later and there's the whole giant battle that happens there where Rand goes all FINAL FLASH on someone with Balefire we kinda can't just sweep that under the rug.

If you mean Rahvin, that happens BEFORE all the tedious Andorian politics.

Rynjin

2021-09-14, 10:06 PM

I don't think visually representing what it looks like will be the issue, it'll be explaining to the audience how the retroactive continuity effect works.

Blackhawk748

2021-09-14, 10:15 PM

If you mean Rahvin, that happens BEFORE all the tedious Andorian politics.

It does? *thinks a tad* Oh, right, it does. It's been over a decade for me so I'm gonna muddle up my timeline. Still I do remember all that Andorian stuff fleshing out Elayne. Obviously we can cut it down, but it still needs to exist.

I don't think visually representing what it looks like will be the issue, it'll be explaining to the audience how the retroactive continuity effect works.

Honestly, I feel that's easy. It's straight-up stated that it does that which is why its so dangerous. I believe the stated effect is something like "It burns them out of the Pattern. The stronger the attack the more it burns" or something to that basic description. Its also shown really obviously in that incident.

Mechalich

2021-09-14, 10:24 PM

I rather agree. There's a bunch of bloat that can get cut, but the Andorian politics are actually kind of important for Elayne's character and since she and Rand are thing later and there's the whole giant battle that happens there where Rand goes all FINAL FLASH on someone with Balefire we kinda can't just sweep that under the rug.

Its weird how much some of that bloat adds to the whole thing.

Amazon is doing this in in 8-episode seasons. Each episode will probably be 50-60 minutes of actual footage, so you're looking at about 7 hours per season. The Eye of the World is 696 pages, so that means each hour has to cover 100 pages of material. That's doable, but you're still going to have to cut a lot.

And that's at a straightforward 1:1 book:season ratio, which can be done for the first three seasons, but isn't sustainable over the long term. 14 seasons is not going to happen, it just won't, there are simply too many obstacles to making any non-reality or non-sitcom show in that fashion in the modern era. Even in a 'massive hit, can play with all the money' scenario you'd be lucky to manage ten seasons. To actually get to the end will require a truly epic measure of cutting and compression. Outright elimination of certain unimportant subplots is almost certainly necessary.

Psyren

2021-09-15, 01:48 AM

I don't think visually representing what it looks like will be the issue, it'll be explaining to the audience how the retroactive continuity effect works.

Honestly, I feel that's easy. It's straight-up stated that it does that which is why its so dangerous. I believe the stated effect is something like "It burns them out of the Pattern. The stronger the attack the more it burns" or something to that basic description. Its also shown really obviously in that incident.

Balefire hits someone and we get some kind of blatant rewind/undo effect for the stuff they did, seems reasonable enough to me.

Still I do remember all that Andorian stuff fleshing out Elayne.

I hated almost everything about it.
The no-stakes tedium of slooooowly gathering the Houses' support. Dyelin being so firmly in her corner meant zero tension.

Her pregnancy making her routinely irrational and temperamental out of nowhere. (Women, amirite fellas?)

The absolute idiocy of thinking Min's prophecy about her children = god mode. (I really expected her to die or be maimed here, instead she got Sareitha, Vandene and Reanne killed.)

More screentime for obnoxious Windfinders, just what we needed.

Above all, the complete lack of payoff. Yay, she became queen and... the Great Captains / Mat led the armies, which they were going to do anyway.

I'd much rather she die than Egwene in the show.

Anteros

2021-09-15, 02:27 AM

Balefire hits someone and we get some kind of blatant rewind/undo effect for the stuff they did, seems reasonable enough to me.

I hated almost everything about it.
The no-stakes tedium of slooooowly gathering the Houses' support. Dyelin being so firmly in her corner meant zero tension.

Her pregnancy making her routinely irrational and temperamental out of nowhere. (Women, amirite fellas?)

The absolute idiocy of thinking Min's prophecy about her children = god mode. (I really expected her to die or be maimed here, instead she got Sareitha, Vandene and Reanne killed.)

More screentime for obnoxious Windfinders, just what we needed.

Above all, the complete lack of payoff. Yay, she became queen and... the Great Captains / Mat led the armies, which they were going to do anyway.

I'd much rather she die than Egwene in the show.

Egwene is just such a mary sue though. Her death is the best part of her arc. I don't mean that in a "I'm glad she's dead" way, but in a "one of her actions finally has a meaningful consequence for her" way.

Mechalich

2021-09-15, 04:20 AM

Above all, the complete lack of payoff. Yay, she became queen and... the Great Captains / Mat led the armies, which they were going to do anyway.

This was the biggest issue with the whole plot. It didn't really amount to anything. Andor's forces didn't offer any sort of special contribution to the Last Battle and the difference in the overall muster capacity of the nation between Queen Elayne and a hypothetical Queen Dyelin is minimal considering the total scale of the conflict. We're talking about 10-20k soldiers in a conflict with something like 1 million humans under arms and several times that on the Dark One's side.

Overall the second half of the series has a small number of major overarching plots: there's the Rand plot, the Mat/Seanchan plot, the Perrin plot, the Egwene/White Tower plot, the Elayne plot, and the Black Tower plot. The Rand, Mat, and Egwene plots are the central ones. Perrin, regrettably, spends most of his time devoted to cleaning up various lose ends - Shaido, Whitecloaks, Isam, etc. The Elayne plot is exceedingly pointless and has effectively no final impact on anything. The Black Tower plot is tragically neglected for a bunch of dumb reasons and Sanderson hijacked the narrative to play gateway games and resolved it in an ultimately very unsatisfying fashion. So purely on relevancy the series is batting around 50% for books 8-14.

Which is not to say that there isn't good or interesting writing in the half of the material that doesn't amount to a whole lot. Some of the dynamics regarding Elayne and the various secondary and tertiary characters orbiting her are actually fun and Andor's politics clearly fits Jordan's limited grasp of the relevant historical norms better than those of some of the other cultures he invented (ex. the idea that the Borderland armies would stay loyal to their monarchs after they journey inflicted on them is highly dubious). I actually like the Perrin & the Whitecloaks bit and Galad's personal journey is surprisingly compelling even though it doesn't make any real difference in the end. And of course, at the same time there's plenty in the three main plots that could have gone a lot better. Rand spends way too much time being mopey, and Egwene's entire plot lacks tension because the ending was explained, in succinct detail, in the Prologue of Book 7

I'd much rather she die than Egwene in the show.

Egwene sacrificing herself is perfectly in character though. Honestly, I hope - in the unlikely event the Last Battle ever gets filmed - they manipulate the timeline slightly so that it comes closer to the ultimate victory for the light rather than with 12 chapters and hundreds of pages left to go. If Egwene's contribution is intended to be equal to that of Rand, something the text at least tries to imply, the rather considerable number of events that stand between it and ultimate victory undercut that presentation significantly.

Anteros

2021-09-15, 08:07 AM

If Sanderson is involved in the final product he'll give all these plot points to Androl anyway.

We'll be lucky if it doesn't get renamed to the Androl show and we get 8 episodes of him playing with portals each season while the main characters occasionally show up in the background.

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-15, 08:55 AM

My hope is that they'll kill Androl and give his stuff (back) to Logain.

My fear is that they'll kill Taim and give his stuff to Logain.

Blackhawk748

2021-09-15, 09:50 AM

The no-stakes tedium of slooooowly gathering the Houses' support. Dyelin being so firmly in her corner meant zero tension.

Her pregnancy making her routinely irrational and temperamental out of nowhere. (Women, amirite fellas?)

The absolute idiocy of thinking Min's prophecy about her children = god mode. (I really expected her to die or be maimed here, instead she got Sareitha, Vandene and Reanne killed.)

More screentime for obnoxious Windfinders, just what we needed.

Above all, the complete lack of payoff. Yay, she became queen and... the Great Captains / Mat led the armies, which they were going to do anyway.

I'd much rather she die than Egwene in the show.

I guess it didn't feel all that slow to me. Then again I enjoy Elayne and so hanging out with her for long stretches never bothered me.

I know a few women who got like this while pregnant. Also the face that she kinda knows that's what's happening and it bugs her got the occasional chuckle out of me.

I agree that was stupid, but she's young and Elayne had always been a bit to self assured

My hope is that they'll kill Androl and give his stuff (back) to Logain.

My fear is that they'll kill Taim and give his stuff to Logain.

We can keep Andol he just needs to stay the supporting character he was meant to be. This does mean giving Login a bunch of stuff back

Psyren

2021-09-15, 10:04 AM

Egwene is just such a mary sue though. Her death is the best part of her arc. I don't mean that in a "I'm glad she's dead" way, but in a "one of her actions finally has a meaningful consequence for her" way.

I don't necessarily mind how she died, it was definitely a badass way to go out. But all that buildup and training for her being the ultimate Amyrlin for like a few weeks only to go back to Cadsuane, who spent her entire life avoiding the job? Without implementing any of her reforms regarding the Kin and Sea Folk, or a TAR training program, or tying the Aiel to the Tower... it just felt like a giant waste.

Not going to bother with the Sue accusation as I disagree pretty fundamentally, every culture she absorbed felt earned to me.

If Sanderson is involved in the final product he'll give all these plot points to Androl anyway.

We'll be lucky if it doesn't get renamed to the Androl show and we get 8 episodes of him playing with portals each season while the main characters occasionally show up in the background.

As I mentioned to you in the other thread, you might be in luck, Sanderson was actually grumbling after meeting with Rafe.

This was the biggest issue with the whole plot. It didn't really amount to anything. Andor's forces didn't offer any sort of special contribution to the Last Battle and the difference in the overall muster capacity of the nation between Queen Elayne and a hypothetical Queen Dyelin is minimal considering the total scale of the conflict. We're talking about 10-20k soldiers in a conflict with something like 1 million humans under arms and several times that on the Dark One's side.

Exactly. I was really hoping Elaida's Foretelling about Andor's importance meant more than just Rand, but I just didn't see it..

Egwene sacrificing herself is perfectly in character though. Honestly, I hope - in the unlikely event the Last Battle ever gets filmed - they manipulate the timeline slightly so that it comes closer to the ultimate victory for the light rather than with 12 chapters and hundreds of pages left to go. If Egwene's contribution is intended to be equal to that of Rand, something the text at least tries to imply, the rather considerable number of events that stand between it and ultimate victory undercut that presentation significantly.

Oh I know it's in character, but I don't care - for the reasons stated in the first spoiler I still considered it a waste.

We can keep Andol he just needs to stay the supporting character he was meant to be. This does mean giving Login a bunch of stuff back

This is the most elegant solution imo. Given that Logain is getting a much bigger role this time around I'm optimistic.

Saph

2021-09-15, 01:21 PM

My hope is that they'll kill Androl and give his stuff (back) to Logain.

My fear is that they'll kill Taim and give his stuff to Logain.

Yeah, same.

Of all the characters that you could cut in order to slim the adaption down to a manageable length, Androl has got to be the single best choice. So many chapters devoted to that guy that added nothing to the overall story at all.

Rodin

2021-09-15, 01:45 PM

One thing I'm hoping for is a tightening up of the timeline so that characters finish their respective arcs at the same time. One of the big problems with WoT is that character development is very unevenly distributed.

Perrin arrives at the spot he needs to be for the Last Battle around about book 4. He spends about 8 books doing filler side quests of little importance.

Elayne's queen plotline plods along because the only thing that really mattered for it was her taking the throne, which occurred in book 5. She then doesn't do much, mainly acting as someone for Nynaeve to talk to as Nynaeve goes through her plotline.

Mat's plot is all over the place. He develops in fits and starts in books 1-3, gets some serious development in the next few, then vanishes from the story until Tuon shows up.

Reducing the scope of the plot and slashing filler stories is great for this. You move some events back a bit (like Perrin and the Two Rivers), move some a bit forward, and then you merge characters together to give meaningful things for the cast to do with the remaining storylines.

Psyren

2021-09-15, 03:20 PM

TheStranger

2021-09-15, 03:52 PM

Psyren

2021-09-16, 01:32 AM

I think the challenge is in agreeing on where the bloat is. Presumably there are those who love the Forsaken scenes and would hate to see them cut. We already have at least one person in this thread who enjoyed the Elayne/Andor plotline, and one who would cut the SL dagger if they could. I assume that *somebody* out there really enjoyed the Shaido, too. It seems like nobody's going to be satisfied with all of the cut/keep decisions that get made.

Well, sure, just like not everyone is satisfied with everything in the books :smallconfused:

But I'm not saying they should cut the Forsaken scenes. Quite the opposite! Watching them all scheme and plot in TAR and lament the barbarism of this Age is a lot of fun, even if we'll have to restructure those scenes to get out of one of their heads. But, I just don't think there's any way we can do 13 of them justice. Either we need fewer of them to start with, or all (well, most) of the ones that die early need to stay dead. Or both.

I kind of like the "another turning of the Wheel" approach to evaluating the show, tbh. There's just too much material in the books to do an adaptation that stays particularly close to the books. It's also unlikely that the show "fixes" all the things in the books that any given fan thinks need fixing, since we all have different opinions on that front. Better to go in without too many expectations based on the books and let the show succeed or fail on its own merits.

It's fine, however, to form expectations based on the trailer and the showrunner's own statements, which is something I'm definitely doing :smallsmile: And based on what I've seen so far I expect (hope for) a bit more prominence for Egwene and Nynaeve than in the originals.

That said, I don't know that I'll be able to let go of my familiarity with the books enough to enjoy the show for what it is, or that I'll enjoy it if I do. I'll probably give the first few episodes a shot, but I may be past the point in my life where a WoT screen adaptation appeals to me.

If that's the case for you I understand, but I've been wanting this since before I had any hope that any fantasy series wouldn't be a chintzy low-budget affair. Thanks to streaming I don't have to worry about the showrunners needing to make up filler episodes to keep the actors busy, or the show failing because it got a crappy timeslot, or the network suits airing the episodes out of order because they don't care, and so on. TL

Anteros

2021-09-16, 02:45 AM

Agreed. The Forsaken need a lot of tuning/pruning as well.

Shai'tan would agree.

Mechalich

2021-09-16, 02:57 AM

But I'm not saying they should cut the Forsaken scenes. Quite the opposite! Watching them all scheme and plot in TAR and lament the barbarism of this Age is a lot of fun, even if we'll have to restructure those scenes to get out of one of their heads. But, I just don't think there's any way we can do 13 of them justice. Either we need fewer of them to start with, or all (well, most) of the ones that die early need to stay dead. Or both.

A large portion of the scenes that the Forsaken are actually in cover fairly important exposition and/or provide essential insight into the Dark One's character and honestly if I were in charge of the show I'd be tempted to add more of them. However, I do agree that 13 characters is simply too many to handle in any substantial way. Still, having high-powered baddies is useful for a long-running show, so I think it makes more sense to organize the Forsaken into two tiers: actual characters and disposable obstacles. The books already do this to a degree and really its just a matter of shifting a few over to the disposable side and giving the handful of substantial things they actually do over to others.

Of course, this is another late developing issue. In the first three books only one of the Forsaken - Lanfear - functions as an actual character. Aginor, Bathamel, and Be'lial are completely disposable baddies and Ishamel is functionally a mobile plot/exposition device who barely manages to operate as a person most of the time.

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-16, 08:28 AM

Like I said in the other thread, I think at a minimum it would be better if all the Forsaken minus Ishy just stay dead. None of the Forsaken mk2 except for Moridin really do enough to earn their slot in the story. Osan'gar and Aran'gar are almost complete non-entities (with Aran'gar additionally having aged fantastically poorly as a gross anti-queer/anti-trans stereotype to add into the bargain) and even Cyndane doesn't do a whole lot except be confusing to the rest of the Forsaken and continue to do some weird wishy-washy ambiguous crap? Ishamael/Moridin can just be Shai'tan's favorite lunatic and get a thematic rebirth to further his being a dark mirror to Lews Therin/Rand but the rest should just stay gone.

I could see, additionally to that, trimming off some of the ancillary Forsaken who don't do much to start with, like Aginor and Balthamel, Bel'al, and maybe even Sammael. But I'm less keen on that than I am with the above suggestion.

Anteros

2021-09-16, 10:54 AM

Psyren

2021-09-16, 11:25 AM

I'm okay with three of them:

Moridin, Cyndane, and Hessalam.

Moridin is obvious, but you need one of the others to die and come back first to set up this ability of the Dark One and the need for balefire.

Lanfear I expect will stay as Lanfear (just weaker) for practical actress reasons - even with her previous appearance, getting depowered and fitted with a cour'souvra are plenty of narrative devices to keep her from haring off after Rand/Egwene/Aviendha the moment she's back. Of all the Forsaken she has the strongest tie to Rand save Moridin himself.

Graendal coming back hideous is poetic justice given her extreme vanity, and she is also the most effective Forsaken in the last battle next to Demandred. She is also Rafe's favorite according to the interview quotes, so the chances of her making it to the end are high.

Of course, this is another late developing issue. In the first three books only one of the Forsaken - Lanfear - functions as an actual character. Aginor, Bathamel, and Be'lial are completely disposable baddies and Ishamel is functionally a mobile plot/exposition device who barely manages to operate as a person most of the time.

This is actually one of the things I'd change:
Setting up Asmodean for example as a weakling and a coward sooner will better pay off his eventual role as Rand's teacher, and having the others browbeat him in meetings will sell that. Maybe not for season/book 1, but book 2 seems useful.

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-16, 11:34 AM

To be honest,

I never really counted Hessalam in with the rest of the reborn Forsaken, since she isn't really "killed" by the good guys and isn't absent for any particular length of time (unless you count her presumed death at Natrin's Barrow) to shockingly reappear later. Her death and rebirth is just kind of something that gets slotted in as an extra detail to show that being a Darkfriend really does have the crappiest of workplace environments. From what I can remember, The Dark One has her tortured to death offscreen himself and then brought back right away as punishment for getting Aran'gar killed at Natrin's Barrow? or something? But it never actually occurs onscreen, so for reasons similar to what you mentioned for Lanfear re: the practicality of having to recast a role if you can reasonably avoid it, I would be fine with just dropping the whole 'Hessalam' switch and having Graendal survive in her original form through to the Last Battle.

A beautiful character being 'punished' by being made ugly is also just kind of a tiresome trope anyway, and even though it's justified by Graendal the character being exceptionally vain, so being made ugly is a punishment for her, less lookism in media would sit just fine with me.

Moridin is the main one that needs an actor swap. It's a whole thematic deal that Ishamael was Lew's Therin's evil opposite, and Moridin is Rand's, and him going from Lews Therin's age to closer to Rand's age in the process of his rebirth is a whole part of that, even aside from the fact that it makes their eventual bodyswap a lot less weird.

Saph

2021-09-16, 11:36 AM

Agreed. The resurrected Forsaken don't really add anything to the story. They mostly just exist as a plot device in the Dark one's plan to push Rand into using balefire. You can easily accomplish that other ways, or even drop it.

I don't know, I'd say Ishamael/Moridin's resurrection adds quite a bit. Ishy tells Rand over and over again that Rand can't win and that his fight's hopeless. Having Rand kill Ishy, only for him to be immediately resurrected, suddenly makes Ishy's argument make a lot more sense.

It also makes Ishamael's story hit a lot harder. He's the most powerful and favoured of the Dark One's servants, he's been gifted eternal life, and pretty much any luxury anyone could possibly imagine – he's living the life that Darkfriends dream about. And it's all meaningless, because the only thing he actually wants is the one thing he can never have.

Psyren

2021-09-16, 11:54 AM

*snip*

Definitely agreed but you may want to spoiler some of that.

To be honest,

I never really counted Hessalam in with the rest of the reborn Forsaken, since she isn't really "killed" by the good guys and isn't dead for any length of time (unless you count her presumed death at Natrin's Barrow) to surprisingly reappear later. Her death and rebirth is just kind of something that gets slotted in as an extra detail. From what I can remember, The Dark One has her tortured to death offscreen himself and then brought back right away as punishment for getting Aran'gar killed at Natrin's Barrow? or something? But it never actually occurs onscreen, so for reasons similar to what you mentioned for Lanfear, I would be fine with just eliding the whole 'Hessalam' thing and having Graendal survive in her original form through to the Last Battle.

A beautiful character being 'punished' by being made ugly is also just kind of a tiresome trope, and even though it's justified by Graendal the character being exceptionally vain, so being made ugly is a punishment for her, less lookism in media would sit just fine with me.

Moridin is the main one that needs an actor swap. It's a whole thematic deal that Ishamael was Lew's Therin's evil opposite, and Moridin is Rand's, and him going from Lews Therin's age to closer to Rand's age in the process of his rebirth is a whole part of that, even aside from the fact that it makes their eventual bodyswap a lot less weird.

As mentioned, I think it's fitting in her specific case because it's what SHE would consider the ultimate punishment. Not saying that the audience should see it that way. It's her character flaw; moreso than even the other Forsaken, she sees herself as superhuman, but moreover, that her beauty should reflect that. It's especially jarring because as a premier psychologist, she should recognize how illogical that thought process is, but being blind to their own vices to the point of self-destruction is ultimately what makes a Forsaken a Forsaken. (The ones who don't make it to Nae'blis, anyway.)

As for Moridin:
No need to switch actors, he's going to be caked in makeup and CGI and voice effects as "Ba'alzamon" anyway. You could easily have Moridin underneath all that and nobody would know.

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-16, 12:02 PM

Moridin:
We'll see Ishamael in the flesh if we ever get a version of the prologue scene. Either as a cold-open like the books or as some kind of Moiraine/Thom storytelling framing flashback. I've seen rumors/leaks regarding a casting for Lews Therin (which I hope are true, dude looks like he'd be an awesome LTT), but any casting for Ba'alzamon/Ishy has been kept impressively under lock and key so far. I do have to wonder how they'll handle all that in regard to credits giving the game away early on that front, if they're trying to keep the same twist in the books with Ba'alzamon having been just this dude the whole time.

To me casting a middle-aged actor (similar in age to whoever they've got for Lews Therin) for Ishamon/Ba'alzamael and then a younger actor to go across Josha Stradowski is the way I'd want it to be handled, but you're right in that there are other ways to do it, and we won't know which one they've picked until they actually share that information with us. :smalltongue:

Psyren

2021-09-16, 12:28 PM

I do think it would be a lot simpler to have minor Actor A for Flashback Ishamael's one scene, and major Actor B for BA+Moridin who will have a lot more scenes,rather than using three actors or moving BA to the A column.

The other option is that they don't show the prologue at all, but rather allude to it, and thus only have one actor to worry about. That will also distance this iteration from the disastrous Red Eagle pilot*. Rafe even alluded to this in the quote page linked earlier:

Question 39 - Prologue
Will we see the prologue from the Eye of the World on screen in season 1

Judkins
You will hear that phrase

*Speaking of which, for those who haven't yet seen - here it is in all its glory before Amazon inevitably scours all trace of it from the interwebs with legal balefire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZOCCEuROPk

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-16, 12:43 PM

Thank you so much for linking that, actually. I've been morbidly curious about it since I heard of it, but never enough to actually go searching for it myself. Now true horror is conveniently at my fingertips.

It's funny. If you asked me a year ago if I wanted tEotW's prologue as a cold open for the show I would have been all "hell to the no, that prologue was corny as heck, and no one ever knows what's going on the first time around" but as of right now my thoughts are in the complete opposite direction. It's dramatic, it's brutal (depending on how much attention you want to give to the aftermath of Lews Therin's namesake Kinslaying), and then it ends with the great visual of LTT turning his funeral pyre into a freaking volcano, which would then lead into whatever glitzily animated opening credits sequence they have for the show (I hope it involves a certain wind).

And if people find it confusing, then, well, these TV viewers shouldn't have been so silly as to expect to understand things, better than I did when I first picked up the book years ago. :smalltongue:

nightwyrm

2021-09-16, 12:50 PM

*Speaking of which, for those who haven't yet seen - here it is in all its glory before Amazon inevitably scours all trace of it from the interwebs with legal balefire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZOCCEuROPk

If someone balefired that out of existence, it would actually improve the Pattern. Damn it's bad.

Tvtyrant

2021-09-16, 12:57 PM

Psyren

2021-09-16, 01:34 PM

Thank you so much for linking that, actually. I've been morbidly curious about it since I heard of it, but never enough to actually go searching for it myself. Now true horror is conveniently at my fingertips.

Consider it a thank you for locating Rafe's quote page for me :smallsmile:

...Or perhaps I just got away with horribly offending/assaulting your senses in a completely forum-rules-legal way. Mwahaha! :smallbiggrin:

I think Aginor might be the most underutilized character in the whole series. He literally did more for Team Evil then anyone else, there wouldn't even be a final battle if not for him. Doing something other then how they used him would be nice.

My issue with Aginor is this. Yes, he invented shadowspawn and that's great. But that was the last Age - what has he done in this one? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9uizdKZAGE) If he had gotten killed off in the last Age and never came back, what would that have changed in this one? That's right, not a thing. We got exactly three new Shadowspawn this age, none of which were made by him, and even his magnum opus (the gholam) didn't encounter or get used by him at all.

TheStranger

2021-09-16, 01:35 PM

I think Aginor might be the most underutilized character in the whole series. He literally did more for Team Evil then anyone else, there wouldn't even be a final battle if not for him. Doing something other then how they used him would be nice.

On every reread of the series, I’m underwhelmed by Aginor’s treatment in EotW. Once we know anything at all about how channeling works, his confrontation with Rand makes zero sense. It’s bad enough that Rand can supposedly already handle more of the Power a month after he first channels than one of the most powerful Forsaken, but Aginor also decides to ignore his massive advantage in skill with the Power of favor of just drawing as much as he can but not using it for anything?

It’s a recurring problem with the Forsaken that appear in the first few books, I think. Setting them up as powerful channelers from the AoL while still letting Rand kill them is a tough balancing act, but IMO Aginor is the only one who’s completely unbelievable. I can buy Moiraine sucker punching Be’Lal, and Ishy is both insane and more than willing to sacrifice himself as part of some kind of gambit.

I think the Eye of the World scene would work with just Balthamel present, really. Let him fight with Moiraine and be crippled but not killed by the Green Man before Rand kills him, and you’ve hit most of the key story beats without Worfing the Forsaken nearly as much. You could even have Rand channel to protect one of his friends instead of running away from the fight. Then bring Aginor into the Black Tower in his original incarnation if you still want to use that plotline. Or the other way around - kill off Aginor at the Eye and save Balthamel for something else. But you probably don’t need to have two Forsaken being incompetent at the Eye.

Psyren

2021-09-16, 01:46 PM

Ugh, I rewatched it myself - who the hell taught Billy Zane how to pronounce Aes Sedai? ("Ay-yez SYEDYE") :smallyuk:

On every reread of the series, I’m underwhelmed by Aginor’s treatment in EotW. Once we know anything at all about how channeling works, his confrontation with Rand makes zero sense. It’s bad enough that Rand can supposedly already handle more of the Power a month after he first channels than one of the most powerful Forsaken, but Aginor also decides to ignore his massive advantage in skill with the Power of favor of just drawing as much as he can but not using it for anything?

It’s a recurring problem with the Forsaken that appear in the first few books, I think. Setting them up as powerful channelers from the AoL while still letting Rand kill them is a tough balancing act, but IMO Aginor is the only one who’s completely unbelievable. I can buy Moiraine sucker punching Be’Lal, and Ishy is both insane and more than willing to sacrifice himself as part of some kind of gambit.

I think the Eye of the World scene would work with just Balthamel present, really. Let him fight with Moiraine and be crippled but not killed by the Green Man before Rand kills him, and you’ve hit most of the key story beats without Worfing the Forsaken nearly as much. You could even have Rand channel to protect one of his friends instead of running away from the fight. Then bring Aginor into the Black Tower in his original incarnation if you still want to use that plotline. Or the other way around - kill off Aginor at the Eye and save Balthamel for something else. But you probably don’t need to have two Forsaken being incompetent at the Eye.

And why did Aginor need the Eye at all? He's already protected from the taint, and it's not like the Eye is an amplifier like the Choedan Kal - or if it is, that wasn't at all explained. The whole point of the Eye is that a bunch of AS strained the taint out (killing themselves in the process) and left a big pool of clean Saidin for the baby Dragon to find later. And they hid Lews' stuff + the Horn there, so that Isshy's gaggle of deluded idiots over the centuries would never find them before the heroes did.

nightwyrm

2021-09-16, 02:49 PM

I think if they don't use the LTT prologue in the opening of the 1st season, they could put it in as the opening of season 2 to replace the darkfriends social. Viewers would have a better context of what's happening in the prologue and it would give a better understanding of why Rand is in constant denial about being the Dragon in book 2.

Rodin

2021-09-16, 03:26 PM

I'm giving up on spoilers since the thread is full to the brim of them already.

The Forsaken work well as a quirky miniboss squad and mostly don't need pruning (although I agree on the resurrections, they should be the first cut).

Most of them don't have that much characterization because they're the high powered opponents for our heroes to fight at the end of each book. I can see repurposing Aginor and letting Balthamel be the one that bites it, then you have Be'lal in book 3, Asmodean in book 4, Rahvin in book 5, Sammael in book 7....etc. etc.

Honestly, the only reason to trim them is that some of them don't do all that much. Combining some of the more persistent background Forsaken (like Graendal, Mesaana, and Semirhage) and cutting short others (Moghedien overstayed her welcome I thought) would get the numbers down nicely.

As a counter proposal, bring Demandred out sooner. He's supposed to be this big rival to Lews Therin, yet that role is completely supplanted by Ishmael and Demandred doesn't even show up until the final book. He got screwed nearly as much as Aginor did.

I realize looking at it that I've suggested cutting the female roles and enhancing the male roles. I don't think that's a problem though, because the male Forsaken don't do all that much for the most part. Aginor and Balthamel die immediately. Be'lal dies in the same chapter we meet him. Rahvin has one role - seduce Queen Morgase, then get killed. I don't recall us seeing much of Sammael in person - he was just the evil leader of Ilian that made that country the source of conflict in book 7. For Forsaken who actually matter, I think the ladies have it. It's difficult to cut male Forsaken because the only ones who have character development are Ishmael/Moridin and Asmodean.

InvisibleBison

2021-09-16, 03:33 PM

I realize looking at it that I've suggested cutting the female roles and enhancing the male roles. I don't think that's a problem though, because the male Forsaken don't do all that much for the most part. Aginor and Balthamel die immediately. Be'lal dies in the same chapter we meet him. Rahvin has one role - seduce Queen Morgase, then get killed. I don't recall us seeing much of Sammael in person - he was just the evil leader of Ilian that made that country the source of conflict in book 7. For Forsaken who actually matter, I think the ladies have it. It's difficult to cut male Forsaken because the only ones who have character development are Ishmael/Moridin and Asmodean.

Also, most of the Forsake can have their gender swapped without causing any narrative problems. I think only Moghedian and Asmodean have to keep their book gender, because they both teach channeling at some point (unless those bits get cut, of course). For all the others, their gender isn't really important.

Saph

2021-09-16, 03:40 PM

I realize looking at it that I've suggested cutting the female roles and enhancing the male roles. I don't think that's a problem though, because the male Forsaken don't do all that much for the most part.

That's because, generally speaking, the male Forsaken die and the female ones don't.

Eye of the World: Aginor (death 1), Balthamel (death 1)
Great Hunt: Forsaken Day Off
Dragon Reborn: Ishamael (death 1), Be'lal (first winner of the You Don't Get A Resurrection Award)
Shadow Rising: Asmodean (clock starts ticking)
Fires of Heaven: Asmodean (clock runs out), Rahvin (second winner of the YDGARA), Lanfear (except not really)
Lord of Chaos: Story was running low on male Forsaken by this point so Dumai's Wells takes the place of the Forsaken Boss Fight
Crown of Swords: Sammael

It's actually quite extreme. By CoS, 7 out of the 8 male Forsaken have died at least once, while 0 out of the 5 female Forsaken have. I can't actually remember at what point the female Forsaken start dying, but it's pretty late.

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-16, 03:45 PM

It's a trend that goes further than the Forsaken. Male villains just die, female villains are enslaved or suffer a fate worse than death.

Tvtyrant

2021-09-16, 03:45 PM

On every reread of the series, I’m underwhelmed by Aginor’s treatment in EotW. Once we know anything at all about how channeling works, his confrontation with Rand makes zero sense. It’s bad enough that Rand can supposedly already handle more of the Power a month after he first channels than one of the most powerful Forsaken, but Aginor also decides to ignore his massive advantage in skill with the Power of favor of just drawing as much as he can but not using it for anything?

It’s a recurring problem with the Forsaken that appear in the first few books, I think. Setting them up as powerful channelers from the AoL while still letting Rand kill them is a tough balancing act, but IMO Aginor is the only one who’s completely unbelievable. I can buy Moiraine sucker punching Be’Lal, and Ishy is both insane and more than willing to sacrifice himself as part of some kind of gambit.

I think the Eye of the World scene would work with just Balthamel present, really. Let him fight with Moiraine and be crippled but not killed by the Green Man before Rand kills him, and you’ve hit most of the key story beats without Worfing the Forsaken nearly as much. You could even have Rand channel to protect one of his friends instead of running away from the fight. Then bring Aginor into the Black Tower in his original incarnation if you still want to use that plotline. Or the other way around - kill off Aginor at the Eye and save Balthamel for something else. But you probably don’t need to have two Forsaken being incompetent at the Eye.

Agreed. Having Aginor die near the end after having helped make a bunch of new Shadowspawn would have fit better. Or even died the same way he does the second time and have it be a major sacrifice because it ruins their preparations for the Last Battle.

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-16, 03:53 PM

As a counter proposal, bring Demandred out sooner. He's supposed to be this big rival to Lews Therin, yet that role is completely supplanted by Ishmael and Demandred doesn't even show up until the final book. He got screwed nearly as much as Aginor did.

I can name one particular way to bring Demandred out sooner that would make a bunch of long-time fans happy.

Saph

2021-09-16, 03:54 PM

It's a trend that goes further than the Forsaken. Male villains just die, female villains are enslaved or suffer a fate worse than death.

Eventually, but it takes a lot longer.

The fact that the Dark One keeps on refusing to let the Forsaken stay dead is the only reason that the Forsaken meetups don't end up with the same sort of gender ratio as Charlie's Angels.

TheStranger

2021-09-16, 05:59 PM

I can name one particular way to bring Demandred out sooner that would make a bunch of long-time fans happy.
Assuming you mean Taimandred, that would indeed be a solid choice for many reasons.

I kind of wonder if the show will trim any of the iterations of "this nation is ruled by one of the Forsaken, so Rand goes there, kills him, and takes over." Be'lal was fine, Rahvin was personal, but it feels a little repetitive by the time Sammael comes around. I'm not sure what's lost if they let the Seanchan have Illian (or just leave it independent) and leave Tear, Cairhien, and Andor firmly behind Rand.

Mechalich

2021-09-16, 06:43 PM

I kind of wonder if the show will trim any of the iterations of "this nation is ruled by one of the Forsaken, so Rand goes there, kills him, and takes over." Be'lal was fine, Rahvin was personal, but it feels a little repetitive by the time Sammael comes around. I'm not sure what's lost if they let the Seanchan have Illian (or just leave it independent) and leave Tear, Cairhien, and Andor firmly behind Rand.

Sammael also contests Rand's reconquest of Cairhien, though he doesn't actually appear onscreen at any point (that battle is written in a rather deliberately surrealist way) and he is a major player in the extended Shaido plot as it unfolds, though Graendal also participates. Sammael is Rand's overall objective for almost three whole books as he starts making plans to attack Illian shortly after taking Cairhein in book five, it's just that stuff keeps getting in the way and the actual assault doesn't happen until much later. As such Sammael is probably the most impactful of the '90% offscreen' Forsaken.

More broadly, thinking about all of this, it's very clear that the showrunners will have to make a series of major choices after season three assuming the show is sufficiently successful to keep going at that point. Note that the odds are against this and I really think Amazon is probably only interested in having one flagship epic fantasy show so in order to survive WoT needs to topple the LotR show. Book 4 is actually surprisingly self-contained as it unfolds entirely in locations that are never again central to the action, which offers a prime window for the showrunners to take some time and plan out what they intend to do from that point onward.

TheStranger

2021-09-16, 07:12 PM

More broadly, thinking about all of this, it's very clear that the showrunners will have to make a series of major choices after season three assuming the show is sufficiently successful to keep going at that point. Note that the odds are against this and I really think Amazon is probably only interested in having one flagship epic fantasy show so in order to survive WoT needs to topple the LotR show. Book 4 is actually surprisingly self-contained as it unfolds entirely in locations that are never again central to the action, which offers a prime window for the showrunners to take some time and plan out what they intend to do from that point onward.

I imagine Amazon will make as many seasons of as many epic fantasy shows as people will watch in sufficient numbers to justify their existence. But I really have no idea how all this is perceived outside of the extremely nerdy parts of the internet that I frequent. My worry is that WoT doesn't have the cultural penetration of LotR (or even the Witcher), or the dragons and boobs of GoT, which will make it hard to pull in enough of an audience for Amazon to keep it going. What WoT has going for it is that for a bunch of fantasy fans in their 30s and 40s, it is *the* epic fantasy of our generation. And the timing is right for nerdy guys in their 30s and 40s to now be high-ranking in major tech companies like Amazon and in a position to give the WoT show some legs.

Blackhawk748

2021-09-16, 10:08 PM

Psyren

2021-09-16, 10:22 PM

The biggest reason why all the Male Forsaken keep getting dirt naps is because they keep picking direct flights with Rand.

You'd think they wouldn't do this after the first two deaths but they just keep on going

Sammael: Look - Rahvin, Asmodean, Ishamael, Aginor, Balthamel, and Be'lal were all clearly flukes. I've totally got this!

Blackhawk748

2021-09-16, 10:29 PM

Sammael: Look - Rahvin, Asmodean, Ishamael, Aginor, Balthamel, and Be'lal were all clearly flukes. I've totally got this!

Like, I can buy Rahvin fighting him, but NO ONE should be picking direct flights with Rand after he shows he's willing to Final Flash someone with Balefire.

Like, that man didn't care for quite awhile about using that stuff

Seerow

2021-09-17, 09:08 AM

Sammael: Look - Rahvin, Asmodean, Ishamael, Aginor, Balthamel, and Be'lal were all clearly flukes. I've totally got this!

Sammael is the only one I really give a pass to personally. He was totally happy to hang out playing nation builder in Illian while Rand killed all the other Forsaken. He even made an offer to Rand to stay out of each others way. Rand came after him, not the other way around.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 09:23 AM

Sammael is the only one I really give a pass to personally. He was totally happy to hang out playing nation builder in Illian while Rand killed all the other Forsaken. He even made an offer to Rand to stay out of each others way. Rand came after him, not the other way around.

Sammael got a very clear middle finger as his response to that truce request. The sensible thing to do would have been to abandon Illian entirely; but every single Forsaken and Rand himself knew he would never run, because at the end of the day he's a moron, or at least stubborn to a fault.

TheStranger

2021-09-17, 09:55 AM

Sammael got a very clear middle finger as his response to that truce request. The sensible thing to do would have been to abandon Illian entirely; but every single Forsaken and Rand himself knew he would never run, because at the end of the day he's a moron, or at least stubborn to a fault.

You could make the case that every Forsaken who tried to kill Rand was kind of a moron. Aside from their own personal idiocy, they should all know enough about how prophecy works to know that Rand isn’t going to die before he does all the various things he’s been foretold to do (WoT has some unpleasant implications for fans of free will). So I’ll give Lanfear half a pass for trying to control Rand rather than kill him, but take that away because her only reason for that is that she’s still hung up on her ex 3,000 freaking years later.

Ishy is a special case, though. When we see him as Moridin he clearly gets that Rand is going to be at TG, and he’s working to manipulate everything leading up to that, not to stop it. Early-book Ishy is less clear, but my headcanon is that he wasn’t really trying to win when Rand fought him in the first two books, and even when Rand killed him that may have all been according to plan.

Misery Esquire

2021-09-17, 10:17 AM

Early-book Ishy is less clear, but my headcanon is that he wasn’t really trying to win when Rand fought him in the first two books, and even when Rand killed him that may have all been according to plan.

To be fair to Ish at this point, he'd just spent 3000 years alive and awake, mostly without his hook to the DO, and hiding from anyone who knew what was going on throughout a literal apocalypse. When we meet him, the only challenger for Oldest Thing Alive is the Green Man. And since the Nym seem almost half-golem in their fixity of purpose, it's hard to say how much he counts.

At some point Ishmael even stopped interacting with humans like a normal person, and possibly eventually convinced himself that all those years ago he was the big bad. (Or at least other characters, and the names he claims, imply such.) And he started physically degrading into a wandering human furnace at some point.

Philosophy is a hell of a drug. Philosophical nihilism even more so.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 10:37 AM

You could make the case that every Forsaken who tried to kill Rand was kind of a moron. Aside from their own personal idiocy, they should all know enough about how prophecy works to know that Rand isn’t going to die before he does all the various things he’s been foretold to do (WoT has some unpleasant implications for fans of free will). So I’ll give Lanfear half a pass for trying to control Rand rather than kill him, but take that away because her only reason for that is that she’s still hung up on her ex 3,000 freaking years later.

Ishy is a special case, though. When we see him as Moridin he clearly gets that Rand is going to be at TG, and he’s working to manipulate everything leading up to that, not to stop it. Early-book Ishy is less clear, but my headcanon is that he wasn’t really trying to win when Rand fought him in the first two books, and even when Rand killed him that may have all been according to plan.

I disagree about Lanfear; if it weren't for Moiraine literally getting handed a cosmic cheat code, she'd have won. There's nothing Lanfear could have done to counter a divination that specific; that was practically on par with the Creator stepping in. The closest analogue I can think of to Moiraine's infodump about the Tairen dock encounter was Doctor Strange using the Time Stone to beat Thanos.

(And what does Rand take away from that encounter? "My irrational refusal to kill even women that are actively trying to kill me backfired and got another woman killed anyway - oh well, better triple down!!" :smallannoyed::smallsigh:)

As for Isshy, my understanding is that the early attempts to stop Rand before TG could have worked. The Dark One embodies paradox, so converting Rand/getting out early could have indeed invalidated all the previous prophecies and negated TG.

My issue with Sammael is that he gets talked up a lot as this great general, but he absolutely refused to change tactics when the circumstances changed. When he established himself in Illian, all the Forsaken I listed except Aginor and Balthamel were alive, and Rand didn't even have Callandor yet. As the dominoes fell and Graendal called him a dumbass to his face, his constant refrain was that he had never retreated from Lews Therin - which he literally ended up doing anyway, except he retreated to possibly the dumbest battleground on the planet, a place that (a) Rand knew better than he did, and (b) anything he did to defend himself would put him in more danger. Some general.

By the end his only real accomplishment, apart from keeping Rand's throne warm for him, was to turn the Shaido into the most annoying filler arc in fantasy history.

lord_khaine

2021-09-17, 10:46 AM

My issue with Sammael is that he gets talked up a lot as this great general, but he absolutely refused to change tactics when the circumstances changed. When he established himself in Illian, all the Forsaken I listed except Aginor and Balthamel were alive, and Rand didn't even have Callandor yet. As the dominoes fell and Graendal called him a dumbass to his face, his constant refrain was that he had never retreated from Lews Therin - which he literally ended up doing anyway, except he retreated to possibly the dumbest battleground on the planet, a place that (a) Rand knew better than he did, and (b) anything he did to defend himself would put him in more danger. Some general.

Should be pointed out it was rather heavily implied Graendal did a lot of manipulation to make Sammael dig in and suicide against Rand.
Though also, that it was quite likely Sammael's plan would have worked. And killed Rand. Had Moridin not saved Rand.

By the end his only real accomplishment, apart from keeping Rand's throne warm for him, was to turn the Shaido into the most annoying filler arc in fantasy history.

part credit belongs to Asmodean. Who set that Coul-something guy up as a distraction xD

TheStranger

2021-09-17, 10:58 AM

I disagree about Lanfear; if it weren't for Moiraine literally getting handed a cosmic cheat code, she'd have won. There's nothing Lanfear could have done to counter a divination that specific; that was practically on par with the Creator stepping in. The closest analogue I can think of to Moiraine's infodump about the Tairen dock encounter was Doctor Strange using the Time Stone to beat Thanos.

(And what does Rand take away from that encounter? "My irrational refusal to kill even women that are actively trying to kill me backfired and got another woman killed anyway - oh well, better triple down!!" :smallannoyed::smallsigh:)

As for Isshy, my understanding is that the early attempts to stop Rand before TG could have worked. The Dark One embodies paradox, so converting Rand/getting out early could have indeed invalidated all the previous prophecies and negated TG.

My issue with Sammael is that he gets talked up a lot as this great general, but he absolutely refused to change tactics when the circumstances changed. When he established himself in Illian, all the Forsaken I listed except Aginor and Balthamel were alive, and Rand didn't even have Callandor yet. As the dominoes fell and Graendal called him a dumbass to his face, his constant refrain was that he had never retreated from Lews Therin - which he literally ended up doing anyway, except he retreated to possibly the dumbest battleground on the planet, a place that (a) Rand knew better than he did, and (b) anything he did to defend himself would put him in more danger. Some general.

By the end his only real accomplishment, apart from keeping Rand's throne warm for him, was to turn the Shaido into the most annoying filler arc in fantasy history.

That’s my point, though. The Pattern will do whatever it takes to keep Rand on track for TG, including handing out cosmic cheat codes as needed.

Whether Rand ever could have been defeated is an open question, since he obviously wasn’t. As far as I remember, we don’t have any examples of even a minor Foretelling, prophetic dream, or one of Min’s viewings being thwarted. I’m open to the idea that Rand is vulnerable when the Dark One touches the pattern directly, though, so perhaps within bubbles of evil or to use of the True Power. So maybe Ishy could have done it, since he used the True Power almost exclusively.

Completely agree about Sammael, though.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 11:46 AM

Should be pointed out it was rather heavily implied Graendal did a lot of manipulation to make Sammael dig in and suicide against Rand.
Though also, that it was quite likely Sammael's plan would have worked. And killed Rand. Had Moridin not saved Rand.

The fact that she could so easily manipulate him, using a several-thousand-year-old understanding of his mindset, proves my point about his unfitness.

As for Moridin,
Rand's dilemma there wasn't truly mortal peril, it was that if he had saved himself with the power Sammael might know where he was. But as we saw several times during that fight, Sammael knowing where he was didn't amount to much. It would have been dangerous, sure, but survivable. Moridin's intervention was welcome, but not truly necessary.

part credit belongs to Asmodean. Who set that Coul-something guy up as a distraction xD

Oh definitely, but without Samm the Shaido would have been completely done in book 5. Partial credit to Asmodean but it only goes so far.

That’s my point, though. The Pattern will do whatever it takes to keep Rand on track for TG, including handing out cosmic cheat codes as needed.

And that's fine, but doesn't make Lanfear stupid the way Sammael was. The Pattern didn't manipulate him into an unwinnable scenario, he did that to himself (with barely a modicum of prodding by Graendal.)

Whether Rand ever could have been defeated is an open question, since he obviously wasn’t. As far as I remember, we don’t have any examples of even a minor Foretelling, prophetic dream, or one of Min’s viewings being thwarted. I’m open to the idea that Rand is vulnerable when the Dark One touches the pattern directly, though, so perhaps within bubbles of evil or to use of the True Power. So maybe Ishy could have done it, since he used the True Power almost exclusively.

Completely agree about Sammael, though.

There are a number of foretellings that didn't come true during the series or were too vague to be certain actually, like the trees flowering around Perrin and the raven tattoo on Carlinya (who died). One advantage to the show is that they'll only have to show the stuff that ends up being resolved.

lord_khaine

2021-09-17, 12:42 PM

The fact that she could so easily manipulate him, using a several-thousand-year-old understanding of his mindset, proves my point about his unfitness.

Now your being unfair. For a start the comment about the understanding being several thousand years old dont make sense.
They were locked in stasis. From their point of view no time basically elapsed.

And all she really did were lure him into doing something he really wanted to do himself.
Fight the upstart dragon while he had a clear advantage due to his age of legend experience.

Something by the way, we still dont know were unwinable or not.
It might have been. But that would take a larger understanding of everything that i think only Ishamel had to realise.

For that matter. Moridins intervention were a bit larger than that.
he asked a few key question. That changed how Rand though about the situation.

TheStranger

2021-09-17, 01:11 PM

And that's fine, but doesn't make Lanfear stupid the way Sammael was. The Pattern didn't manipulate him into an unwinnable scenario, he did that to himself (with barely a modicum of prodding by Graendal.)

I think we’re in agreement there. My original point was that there’s a pretty high degree of arrogant stupidity in any of the Forsaken thinking they could kill Rand before TG when there’s a boatload of apparently-infallible prophecy saying that’s not going to happen. Sammael gets bonus points for stupidity because he probably would have gotten himself killed even without that.

As for Sammael being a great general, it’s definitely more of an informed attribute from what we saw. OTOH, it’s worth remembering that the generals at the end of the AoL had to basically figure out the whole concept of war from first principles. Sammael could have gotten his reputation by virtue of being among the first to be moderately competent at warfare, without actually being particularly good at it.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 01:12 PM

He may have not experienced all of it, but he still knows how much time has passed and how much the world has changed. If he were as good a general as he thinks he is, he would adapt (much like Demandred did). That's all I'm saying.

As for Sammael being a great general, it’s definitely more of an informed attribute from what we saw. OTOH, it’s worth remembering that the generals at the end of the AoL had to basically figure out the whole concept of war from first principles. Sammael could have gotten his reputation by virtue of being among the first to be moderately competent at warfare, without actually being particularly good at it.

My thought exactly.

Tvtyrant

2021-09-17, 01:44 PM

I think we’re in agreement there. My original point was that there’s a pretty high degree of arrogant stupidity in any of the Forsaken thinking they could kill Rand before TG when there’s a boatload of apparently-infallible prophecy saying that’s not going to happen. Sammael gets bonus points for stupidity because he probably would have gotten himself killed even without that.

As for Sammael being a great general, it’s definitely more of an informed attribute from what we saw. OTOH, it’s worth remembering that the generals at the end of the AoL had to basically figure out the whole concept of war from first principles. Sammael could have gotten his reputation by virtue of being among the first to be moderately competent at warfare, without actually being particularly good at it.

I think he actually does the best of anyone in the series at using tactics that would actually work. He realizes he is out matched magically so he has his troops make hard points that the enemy will have to assault magically to break. The first is an outer line he knows will stop the very large normal forces of his enemies, then an internal trap for anyone who teleports a strike force in.

It works. Rand's forces fail to breach the outer defenses, he gets impatient and strikes in and his forces are broken and he almost dies.

Only Mat is really depicted as being better, and even then he usually has more casters/cannons then the enemy. Sammael comes close to beating Rand with truly inferior forces.

russdm

2021-09-17, 02:08 PM

Only Mat is really depicted as being better

I am not so sure about that really. From my impression, nearly all of Mat's success came from his Mary-Sue Luck Levels than anything. If the Pattern re-organizes itself around the three, then I can imagine instances where they should have flat out died instead without the Pattern refusing to allow anything different.

As for Generalship, I think that the reputation is more about the world in the Age of Legends going boom afterward and so everyone from then probably became epically awesome, despite everything.

I mean, look at the Story of Arthur and how much change happened there. The original (if any) has become a King and Emperor with an amazing court and great deeds, while the original (if any) was supposedly just a war leader that fought some battles against the Anglo-Saxons who later co opted the narrative.

So I think a similar thing happened with the various Forsaken, because they all end up being treated as larger as life in all ways, but prove out to be pretty stupid bunches.

I was also not thrilled about the Dark One rezzing the dead servants, made it way to D&D in my mind. I prefer my villains to go down and stay down. And my heroes too. Probably why I like the Dragonlance stories more than the Forgotten Realms ones. Lord Soth excepted of course, not Toede

TheStranger

2021-09-17, 02:26 PM

Psyren

2021-09-17, 02:50 PM

I think he actually does the best of anyone in the series at using tactics that would actually work. He realizes he is out matched magically so he has his troops make hard points that the enemy will have to assault magically to break. The first is an outer line he knows will stop the very large normal forces of his enemies, then an internal trap for anyone who teleports a strike force in.

It works. Rand's forces fail to breach the outer defenses, he gets impatient and strikes in and his forces are broken and he almost dies.

Only Mat is really depicted as being better, and even then he usually has more casters/cannons then the enemy. Sammael comes close to beating Rand with truly inferior forces.

This is almost completely inaccurate. He played Sammael like a fiddle.
Rand - or more accurately Lews Therin - guessed not only the nature of Sammael's traps, but how to overwhelm them in an instant. He leapt in with the Asha'man and they channeled a fireworks show all over the place, setting off every damn alarm in the city, then all teleported in multiple directions. Sammael had no counter to it at all. He ended up finding Rand eventually, and failed to do any significant damage, then yelled about how he doesn't like breaking his stuff and won't you please follow me to Shadar Logoth instead. The rest is history.

As for the army - it was only stymied because Rand got himself stabbed by Fain and was out of it for two days. The moment he was back up and around, Sammael's attempts to keep them out failed immediately, and once the man himself fled to Aridhol he was donezo. The whole thing was comical after all three books of build-up.

I am not so sure about that really. From my impression, nearly all of Mat's success came from his Mary-Sue Luck Levels than anything. If the Pattern re-organizes itself around the three, then I can imagine instances where they should have flat out died instead without the Pattern refusing to allow anything different.

Mat's luck is a big part of his success, but it's not the only thing. He's genuinely a good leader who is truly beloved by his men, because he doesn't see himself as miles above them like the High Lords and such do. The luck comes into play after that, but that love is what makes them want to be around him in the first place.

Sapphire Guard

2021-09-17, 02:51 PM

Very few of the Forsaken actually pick a direct fight with Rand.

Rahvin and Sammael were attacked, Asmodean tried to avoid Rand and went for the Access Key, Be lal needed him to get to Callandor and was handling him easily. All of them actually beat him in a straight fight, he survives from outside assistance or angreal.

Aginor tried, but the thing about Aggy is that despite being super powerful he's terrible in combat, he's a scientist, not a fighter.

Ishy also tried, but literally forgot about his powers.

The two Forsaken to actually pick a fight with Rand were Semirhage and Lanfear.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 02:58 PM

Technically Rand just showed up in Rahvin and Sammael's territory. They attacked him. They could have just as easily given up their territory and fled instead, but they chose to stay and fight. So I do count that as picking direct confrontation.

Aginor being so strong really makes no sense and is something they should probably retcon. If he's so bad at fighting just make him weak - it would also explain why he chose science to serve the Shadow, and why trying to draw on the Eye as much as Rand did fried him like a pork rind. Just make him weaker, it fits the story better.

I don't think we can really say Ishamael was trying to do anything, except convert Rand on the spot.

Anteros

2021-09-17, 03:24 PM

Like, I can buy Rahvin fighting him, but NO ONE should be picking direct flights with Rand after he shows he's willing to Final Flash someone with Balefire.

Like, that man didn't care for quite awhile about using that stuff

Look at any elite athlete, or anyone who is in the top .01% of their field. They all think they're the best. That's the attitude it takes to get to that kind of level. It's no surprise to me that most of the Forsaken are similar. I find it completely realistic.

You could make the case that every Forsaken who tried to kill Rand was kind of a moron. Aside from their own personal idiocy, they should all know enough about how prophecy works to know that Rand isn’t going to die before he does all the various things he’s been foretold to do (WoT has some unpleasant implications for fans of free will). So I’ll give Lanfear half a pass for trying to control Rand rather than kill him, but take that away because her only reason for that is that she’s still hung up on her ex 3,000 freaking years later.

Ishy is a special case, though. When we see him as Moridin he clearly gets that Rand is going to be at TG, and he’s working to manipulate everything leading up to that, not to stop it. Early-book Ishy is less clear, but my headcanon is that he wasn’t really trying to win when Rand fought him in the first two books, and even when Rand killed him that may have all been according to plan.

What kind of logic is that? Literally their entire win condition involves circumventing the prophecies. If they're operating under the assumption that prophecies are infallible then they may as well just lay down and wait to die. Rand is literally prophesied to win the final battle.

Technically Rand just showed up in Rahvin and Sammael's territory. They attacked him. They could have just as easily given up their territory and fled instead, but they chose to stay and fight. So I do count that as picking direct confrontation.

Aginor being so strong really makes no sense and is something they should probably retcon. If he's so bad at fighting just make him weak - it would also explain why he chose science to serve the Shadow, and why trying to draw on the Eye as much as Rand did fried him like a pork rind. Just make him weaker, it fits the story better.

I don't think we can really say Ishamael was trying to do anything, except convert Rand on the spot.

What are they going to do? Abandon their forces any time their enemy shows up? Yeah, that sounds like a wonderful way to win a war. They totally won't just be on the run forever with an ever-shrinking list of places to hide and build power.

Even if we assume the Dark One would let them get away with trying to avoid him in the first place. They have to defend themselves when attacked. They have no choice.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 03:37 PM

What are they going to do? Abandon their forces any time their enemy shows up? Yeah, that sounds like a wonderful way to win a war. They totally won't just be on the run forever with an ever-shrinking list of places to hide and build power.

Even if we assume the Dark One would let them get away with trying to avoid him in the first place. They have to defend themselves when attacked. They have no choice.

Lews (and I think Sammael too in one of his POVs) states that this is exactly what Graendal and Moghedien did during the War, i.e. abandoning their strongholds when attacked - and they were clearly still both alive and Chosen, so the premise that the DO would punish them simply for falling back doesn't hold water. No, nothing is tying them down in their respective strongholds but unchecked ego, with vaguely hypermasculine undertones, because of course.

As far as where else they could hide - seriously? Semirhage had an entire continent to herself, one that Rand never even visits! (Well there was that one time he banged Aviendha there, but that doesn't really count.) And Demandred had a country of his own too. Not to mention that Moridin became head honcho with no base of power at all. The DO trolled all of them until the very end.

Tvtyrant

2021-09-17, 03:40 PM

Almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. Sammael does a good job of turtling, but a lousy job of adapting once things go off script. And fighting Rand with an inferior force in the first place was questionable strategy given what had happened to every other Forsaken that openly controlled a nation at that point.

His offscript was the closest anyone came to defeating Rand? I don't know what you want for tactical genius here.

By contrast nearly every other organization, including the Seanchen and the Tower, have no defenses against teleporting in alpha strikes. The big tactical brilliance most armies show in series is to use scouts at all, and make squares of human/ trolloc bodies between casters and their enemies.

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-17, 03:59 PM

Quite a few of the Forsaken come pretty close to offing Rand, before suddenly getting blindsided by outside help. I think Sammael is one of the ones that Rand actually outsmarts and beats in about as close to a fair fight as possible, outside a little motivational kick in the pants from Moridin. Aginor, Ishamael, and Asmodean are among the others that Rand beats in a straight up duel, with little in the way of outside assistance or sudden surprise saves from allies. Bel'al has him pretty much on the ropes, before Moiraine sneak attack balefires him. Lanfear has him close to submission before Moiraine (again!) tackles her into another dimension. And Rahvin also has him beaten and is about to deal the finishing blow before Nynaeve and Moggy blindside him with a fireball to the face.

Admittedly, in all these examples Rand is decidedly working against himself. Against Bel'al he's still partially trying to deny his destiny and refuses to take Callandor or channel, against Lanfear he's got his whole insane chivalry deal preventing him from properly fighting her, and against Rahvin he's blind with rage and lashing out at him recklessly after hearing about Morgase (and also the subsequent deaths of Mat and Avhienda). Sammael has to deal with a Rand that's thinking (mostly) clearly, enacting a plan that was fully pre-meditated. And gets totally owned as a result.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 03:59 PM

His offscript was the closest anyone came to defeating Rand? I don't know what you want for tactical genius here.

By contrast nearly every other organization, including the Seanchen and the Tower, have no defenses against teleporting in alpha strikes. The big tactical brilliance most armies show in series is to use scouts at all, and make squares of human/ trolloc bodies between casters and their enemies.

Uh, Rahvin did way better against scry-and-die than Sammael did. It took literally rewinding time to save the world, because he actually killed Mat (and Aviendha). And if it weren't for Nynaeve he'd have actually killed Rand too.

Sammael's wards meanwhile were just alarms, and they got owned in seconds. And retreating to Shadar Logoth of all places - I genuinely have no idea what he was thinking.

Blackhawk748

2021-09-17, 04:14 PM

Look at any elite athlete, or anyone who is in the top .01% of their field. They all think they're the best. That's the attitude it takes to get to that kind of level. It's no surprise to me that most of the Forsaken are similar. I find it completely realistic.

I can understand it, but they should be way more reluctant to battle after Rand annihilated him, if only out of prudent caution

Tvtyrant

2021-09-17, 04:20 PM

Uh, Rahvin did way better against scry-and-die than Sammael did. It took literally rewinding time to save the world, because he actually killed Mat (and Aviendha). And if it weren't for Nynaeve he'd have actually killed Rand too.

Sammael's wards meanwhile were just alarms, and they got owned in seconds. And retreating to Shadar Logoth of all places - I genuinely have no idea what he was thinking.
I actually think Shadar Logoth was a good move. Unlike the rest of the mentioned people, Sammael was fighting Ashamen as well as Rand. His whole strategy was to separate Rand from his army, which outnumbered his in numbers and casters. By a lot.

Rand also only lived through that encounter because of Moridin and the whole double banefire event that lets him win in the end. I'm not saying Sammael was the best of the Forsaken, but his claims to tactical brilliance are way better established then most of the generals.

Rand and the Seanchen's battles in the next book are literally an artillery duel in a mountain pass where they hammer on each other until both armies break.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 04:29 PM

I actually think Shadar Logoth was a good move. Unlike the rest of the mentioned people, Sammael was fighting Ashamen as well as Rand. His whole strategy was to separate Rand from his army, which outnumbered his in numbers and casters. By a lot.

Rand also only lived through that encounter because of Moridin and the whole double banefire event that lets him win in the end. I'm not saying Sammael was the best of the Forsaken, but his claims to tactical brilliance are way better established then most of the generals.

I still don't, but I'm okay agreeing to disagree. He could have teleported literally anywhere else to separate Rand. Like the Blight. Or Graendal's palace (she was fooled into thinking he was Nae'blis at this point.) Or jumped into TAR like Rahvin didy, if he didn't want Rand to be able to follow his residues. Instead he went to the most dangerous place for him on the planet, where everything they threw at each other would just attract an unspeakable city-wide ooze that much faster.

Rand and the Seanchen's battles in the next book are literally an artillery duel in a mountain pass where they hammer on each other until both armies break.

Rand only lost that one because he didn't know Callandor amplifies the taint too. So he went a bit crazy and zapped both armies. Had he used it properly (Cadsuane's method) he'd have been able to only zap the Seanchan and probably kicked them off the continent again.

Tvtyrant

2021-09-17, 04:52 PM

I still don't, but I'm okay agreeing to disagree. He could have teleported literally anywhere else to separate Rand. Like the Blight. Or Graendal's palace (she was fooled into thinking he was Nae'blis at this point.) Or jumped into TAR like Rahvin didy, if he didn't want Rand to be able to follow his residues. Instead he went to the most dangerous place for him on the planet, where everything they threw at each other would just attract an unspeakable city-wide ooze that much faster.

Rand only lost that one because he didn't know Callandor amplifies the taint too. So he went a bit crazy and zapped both armies. Had he used it properly (Cadsuane's method) he'd have been able to only zap the Seanchan and probably kicked them off the continent again.

I hear you. My interpretation was he was fairly certain he could get out ahead of it, and wanted it to eat any Ashaman that followed them. It was arrogant for sure, but not bad tactics really.

Rand lost that one because he is a horrible tactician. The Seanchen hardly covered themselves in glory tactically either. That he misused a 3000 year old doomsday weapon instead of having overwhelming force doesn't say anything about tactics either way.

In a lot of the series this is the case, where the good guys win by personal duels or by overwhelming force. The Seanchen copy the Ashaman scry and die using dragon flights then lose to another ancient doomsday weapon, the Tower still sucked at making any defenses or even responses to the problem of flight or teleporting.

The high point of the series for actual tactics is Knife of Dreams. Mat and Perrin actually think through the problems and fight equal or better forces without unearthing a nuke or slamming people together in a big mass.

Sapphire Guard

2021-09-17, 04:54 PM

Graendal and Moghedien's specialty is intelligence, they don't need to hold land.

Aginor being so strong really makes no sense and is something they should probably retcon. If he's so bad at fighting just make him weak - it would also explain why he chose science to serve the Shadow, and why trying to draw on the Eye as much as Rand did fried him like a pork rind. Just make him weaker, it fits the story better.

But why? Shows being good at fighting actually matters rather than just brute force.

Instead he went to the most dangerous place for him on the planet, where everything they threw at each other would just attract an unspeakable city-wide ooze that much faster.

That's the point. Means they have to be cautious rather than force v force. Sammael also had one of that pattern disrupting cheat codes in Liah showing up to be the super distraction at the right moment.

Going to Graendal's palace would involve trusting Graendal. Which is generally a bad idea.

Rand loses against Rahvin, Belal, Asmodean and Sammael without pattern cheat codes.

Those lightning attacks hit randomly, Rahvin just got lucky in killing Aviendha and Mat.

Gnoman

2021-09-17, 05:02 PM

Rand only lost that one because he didn't know Callandor amplifies the taint too. So he went a bit crazy and zapped both armies. Had he used it properly (Cadsuane's method) he'd have been able to only zap the Seanchan and probably kicked them off the continent again.

Cadsuane's method wouldn't have affected the amplified taint. It was a way to counter the other great flaw in Callandor - it lacks the buffer other sa'angreal use to prevent overloading the user.

More importantly, the zapping of both sides had much more to do with the Bowl of the Winds - multiple casters remark that both saidin and saidar are acting very oddly in that region, and there are other Power mishaps.

Mechalich

2021-09-17, 05:56 PM

The high point of the series for actual tactics is Knife of Dreams. Mat and Perrin actually think through the problems and fight equal or better forces without unearthing a nuke or slamming people together in a big mass.

And those battle are dominated by more or less conventional Early Modern Period armies with the majority of the Channelers either absent or neutralized from the start. Jordan and Sanderson, like many, many authors before them, struggled with integrating the full capabilities of their incredibly power magic users into the framework of fantasy warfare. That's pretty normal, actually. High magic conflicts almost always struggle to work out in a convincing fashion.

Jordan, to his credit, seems to have recognized this. He repeatedly cut away from magically empowered battle sequences - for example in the first Falme battle - to either focus on power duels (often at locations distinct from where the battle was occurring) or to emphasize the mindsets of critically important characters. He even staged a number of major encounters entirely off-screen and then had other characters report the events via a sort of after-action reporting.

In addition to this being an effective literary device - staging a set piece battle is a long and complex affair and requires a great deal of words and often isn't worth the effort if no major character is directly in the mix - this is actually a good thing for the show. Fantasy warfare is incredibly expensive to stage in properly convincing cinematic fashion by the standards of modern audiences (thank you Peter Jackson), and Jordan's writing style means that with a little sleight of hand the series doesn't actually have to run a full scale battle until the climax of Book Four comes along.

Anteros

2021-09-17, 07:16 PM

snip

I don't know why you do that annoying white text for spoilers when it's just as easy to press the spoiler button and it makes you 10x less annoying to quote.

Falling back only helps when someone else holds the line. You can survive that way for a while, but you can never win. There's a reason the other Forsaken call Mogheiden the Spider and hold her in contempt. And Semirhage has a continent. Whoo. How relevant was that? It wasn't. At all. Turns out that being on the other side of the ocean from any of your enemies is a significant drawback. Power only matters if you have the ability to apply it. Where would they even retreat to anyway? Every single major power already has a Forsaken or Rand in control of it. Sure, they could go hide in a village somewhere and hope to get an opportunity to do something one day. That's totally what you want your generals doing.

Semirhage and Mogheiden are both literally punished for running from confrontations with the protagonists in the books, so I don't know what you're on about there.

Tvtyrant

2021-09-17, 07:32 PM

And those battle are dominated by more or less conventional Early Modern Period armies with the majority of the Channelers either absent or neutralized from the start. Jordan and Sanderson, like many, many authors before them, struggled with integrating the full capabilities of their incredibly power magic users into the framework of fantasy warfare. That's pretty normal, actually. High magic conflicts almost always struggle to work out in a convincing fashion.

Jordan, to his credit, seems to have recognized this. He repeatedly cut away from magically empowered battle sequences - for example in the first Falme battle - to either focus on power duels (often at locations distinct from where the battle was occurring) or to emphasize the mindsets of critically important characters. He even staged a number of major encounters entirely off-screen and then had other characters report the events via a sort of after-action reporting.

In addition to this being an effective literary device - staging a set piece battle is a long and complex affair and requires a great deal of words and often isn't worth the effort if no major character is directly in the mix - this is actually a good thing for the show. Fantasy warfare is incredibly expensive to stage in properly convincing cinematic fashion by the standards of modern audiences (thank you Peter Jackson), and Jordan's writing style means that with a little sleight of hand the series doesn't actually have to run a full scale battle until the climax of Book Four comes along.

I agree! It's not a series where the author is really focused on tactical warfare. Which is why I was arguing against the point that Sammael is told but not shown to be a tactical genius. In a series where commanders routinely throw away armies he holds off a much larger army, and actually anticipates scry and die tactics. That is as good as anyone does who isn't Mat in this series.

Perrin's use of spies and poison in Knife of Dreams is also quite good later in the series.

russdm

2021-09-17, 07:43 PM

Can we get a rundown on who the forsaken all are and what they could do?

I remember of them being:
That guy who shows up in the first book and for that first seal and the eye thingie
Lanfear - Lews old ex girlfriend/wife who was super beautiful and hated Lews totally
Lews friend guy from the Lews kills everybody at home and guy made Lews go sane and Lews went nuts because of what he did
That lady that did thing and then had another body and then Rand blows her up with the balefire
That guy that Rand beats up and so joins Rand. Is Asmodean?
That guy that shows up for confronting the Dark One at the place right there before Rand goes into the Pattern portal place
The guy leading that nation of Dark One supporters, not the same as above
The guy that appears after Mat takes the dagger from the cursed city and then goes off to corrupt Rand's male channel changers (okay, I don't think that this guy was a Forsaken, but I think that I remember that he was a total Forsaken wannabe)
The guy that was involved with Perrin in the dream world fighting
The guy that claimed that was the Dark One, probably the same guy from the first book and who was involved with the first seal

I know that I have to have missed some

Also my memory of what happened in the books (it has been a while since I last read them and I may get things totally wrong):
1) Moira lady with Lan picks up the 3 guys (mat, perrin, rand) and the two gals (nyneave, egwene) and they later fight some trollocs; mat visits the cursed city and the group goes wandering around a few places and then Rand meets the guy that claims to be the Dark One; then they go to visit that place where the first seal is and Rand fights that guy and dies and gets the first seal
2) Rand meets Min and Elayne, group (rand, egwene, mat, perrin, Lan, moira lady) goes through some places, something to do with white tower, something to do with the sea, something about the seanchan
3) rand meets Lanfear, something then later meeting the Aiel people, then some time there, then going off somewhere and back to aiel, something happens/happening at the white tower (nyneave and egwene maybe), white tower decides to do something about rand, try to take him
4) white tower holds rand prisoner, egwene and nyneave train at white tower, mat goes somewhere else, perrin does something, some point they meet logain the ogier
5) white tower releases rand after problems, egwene and nyneave and elayne end up with seanchan, whole damane thing
6) rand goes on to visit place with the callendor sword, and mat goes somewhere to get horn of hero summoning, perrin does wolf stuff or does some aiel stuff or whatevs, then off for blacksmithing; rand kills a Forsaken with the callendor sword
7) stuff in others plots about Rand and callendor, and then killing the Forsaken with callendor, start of the dark one serving aes sedai stuff
8) Perrin is a blacksmith and something about he goes to rescue faile, mat blows the horn of Hero summoning, rand kicks lanfear out, then goes off to aiel place does a thing, white tower civil war plot starts up, rand ends up on dragonmount, Lan goes off to fight trollocs to die, elayne bonds with Brigitte here
9) elayne bonds with Brigitte, Forsaken lady dies, another Forsaken appears and maybe dies, rand's black tower gets going, dagger guy shows up to black tower to try to take over, elayne takes over the throne thing, whole bunch of stuff with the whitecloaks and them spreading around, seanchan get their second invasion of the land going, mat marries tuon..., egwene fights to be named head of the white tower, nyneave and Lan agree to hookup and marry
10) rand has his moment of becoming sane with Lews, we learn about rand's parentage, rand meets tam and later meets cadsuane, mat goes somewhere to do something, perrin kills a bunch of aiel, something about shaido/shadow, rand breaks the callendor sword and cleanses the saidin/saidar, the white tower problems almost over with
11 - 13 & 14) the brandon Sanderson novels

Should I be putting this review in spoilers?

Gnoman

2021-09-17, 08:40 PM

The Forsaken were:

Ishamael - Joined the Shadow out of nihilism - the Light had to lose sooner or later, so why not now? Not properly sealed with the rest, he was the one who freed Lews Therin from madness to reveal what LTT had done to all his kin, and he periodically became active again in the world. He led the armies of the Shadow against Manetheren in the Trolloc Wars, turned Artur Hawkwing against the Aes Sedai, and founded the Black Ajah. Using the name Ba'alzamon, and believed to actually be Shai'tan, he tried to seduce Rand, Mat, and Perrin in their dreams, and led the Darkfriends of the world until being stabbed through the heart with Callendor in the World Of Dreams version of Tear. Reborn as Moridin, he was put in charge of all the Forsaken, and faced Rand directly at the Last Battle

Rahvin - Used Compulsion to warp Queen Morgase to his will, crippling the nation of Andor. Hunted down and balefired by Rand because the latter believed Rahvin had murdered her.

Demandred - Lews Therin Telamon's great rival in the Age of Legends, brought the armies of Shara to fight for the Shadow in the Last Battle. Tried to take on Lan Mandragoran with a sword.

Sammael - Ruled Ilian, and scattered the Shaido everywhere to cause chaos. He was Rand's target for several books, and died in a confrontation at Shadar Logoth.

Aginor - Sealed too close to the surface, and spent three thousand years aging. Killed while fighting Rand for control of the Eye Of The World. Reborn as O'san'gar, infiltrated the Black Tower before being killed during the Cleansing of Saidin.

Balthamel - Sealed too close to the surface, and spent three thousand years aging. Killed by the Green Man at the Eye Of The World. Reborn as Aran'gar, infiltrated the Little Tower at Salidar before being exposed and fleeing. Killed by enormous amounts of Balefire by Rand.

Asmodean - A composer who claimed to have joined the Shadow in the hope of endless music. Crowned the chief of the Shaido as a false He Who Comes With The Dawn, switches sides and teaches Rand after being tracked down and defeated. Murdered by Graendal.

Be'Lal - Ruled Tear, killed with Balefire by Moraine.

Lanfear - Lover of Lews Therin Telamon before Ilyena, insanely possessive. Tried repeatedly to possess Rand, trying to convince him to overthrow Shai'tan and rule the universe at her side. Thrown into the Tower Of Genji by Moraine, reborn as Cyndane. Killed by Perrin at the Last Battle

Semihrage - Formerly a great healer, but with a great love of torture. Manipulated the Seanchan heavily before wiping out the entire Imperial Family, was balefired with the True Power by Rand.

Mesaana - Infiltrated the White Tower, lead the Black Ajah in deposing Suian and causing the great schism. Mind turned to goo by Egwene

Graendal - Expert at Compulsion, did relatively little except collect an vast number of beautiful people Compelled into blind worship of her until being reborn as the extremely ugly Hessalem. Nearly won the Last Battle singlehandedly before a mishap caused her attempt to Compel Avihenda backfired on her, causing her to worship Avihenda.

Moghedien - Made the initial attempt to secure the Domination Band, but was foiled twice by Nyneave before being captured and collared by Nyneave. Provided a huge number of lost (and "lost") weaves to the Little Tower before being freed by Arangar, tries to kill Nyneave in revenge but only succeeds in clearing her block, and avoids the battle at the Cleansing. Tries to infiltrate the Seanchan at the Last Battle, revealed by Min, and temporarily takes command of the Shadow's forces disguised as Demandred. Defeated by cannonfire, she is collared by the Seanchan.

M'hael - Recruited and Turned a large number of Ashaman and captive Aes Sedai to the Shadow, forming an army of Dreadlords to fight at the Last Battle. Killed by Egwene with the Flame of Tar Valon.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 08:44 PM

Cadsuane's method wouldn't have affected the amplified taint. It was a way to counter the other great flaw in Callandor - it lacks the buffer other sa'angreal use to prevent overloading the user.

Her method applied to both the buffer and the taint amplification. She made that very clear.

More importantly, the zapping of both sides had much more to do with the Bowl of the Winds - multiple casters remark that both saidin and saidar are acting very oddly in that region, and there are other Power mishaps.

I actually thought that was due to Aviendha's unweaving in that spot.

Graendal and Moghedien's specialty is intelligence, they don't need to hold land.

Graendal specifically says that all of the Chosen are expected to lead armies too actually, even her. Moghedien in one of her POVs mentions having done so even, though she hates it.

But why? Shows being good at fighting actually matters rather than just brute force.

What purpose does saying he is strong serve if it never comes up or matters to the narrative? Informed attribute is just sloppy writing.

That's the point. Means they have to be cautious rather than force v force. Sammael also had one of that pattern disrupting cheat codes in Liah showing up to be the super distraction at the right moment.

There is no way in hell he orchestrated Liah showing up then, and it didn't even matter anyway.

Going to Graendal's palace would involve trusting Graendal. Which is generally a bad idea.

He had her under his thumb that entire book, even in her own POV.
It didn't amount to anything of course, because almost nothing they do does.

Rand loses against Rahvin, Belal, Asmodean and Sammael without pattern cheat codes.

I wouldn't put Asmodean in that list honestly, that was fair and square.
Be'lal was less cheat code than just sheer awesomeness from Womandalf.

I don't know why you do that annoying white text for spoilers when it's just as easy to press the spoiler button and it makes you 10x less annoying to quote.

Because if I'm only covering up 1-3 words at a time, having a bunch of grey lines throughout my posts surrounding those feels excessive. For whole phrases and sentences I do use them. If you want, you can just do "@Psyren:" rather than quote me if that is easier - I won't mind.

Falling back only helps when someone else holds the line. You can survive that way for a while, but you can never win. There's a reason the other Forsaken call Mogheiden the Spider and hold her in contempt. And Semirhage has a continent. Whoo. How relevant was that? It wasn't. At all. Turns out that being on the other side of the ocean from any of your enemies is a significant drawback. Power only matters if you have the ability to apply it. Where would they even retreat to anyway? Every single major power already has a Forsaken or Rand in control of it. Sure, they could go hide in a village somewhere and hope to get an opportunity to do something one day. That's totally what you want your generals doing.

Semirhage and Mogheiden are both literally punished for running from confrontations with the protagonists in the books, so I don't know what you're on about there.

Their contempt is irrelevant, she proved the value of that approach. She'd have won completely (or at least escaped it all to live like a queen) if she didn't have the Perception check of a blind goat.

As for the punishments you mention, you're wrong - those were specifically for disobeying orders and being captured, not for retreating.

Gnoman

2021-09-17, 10:19 PM

I actually thought that was due to Aviendha's unweaving in that spot.

Elayne's unweaving, not Avihenda's. However, the strange feel began before the unweaving was attempted.

Talaan wavered, a reed in the wind, casting surreptitious glances at her mother, plainly afraid to sit. Aviendha stood straight, her fixed expression saying that willpower had as much to do with that as anything else. She gave a slight smile, though, and made a gesture in Maiden handtalk—worth the price—and then another—more—right behind. More than worth the price. Everyone looked weary, if not so much as those who had used angreal. The Bowl of the Winds went quiet at last, just a wide bowl of clear crystal, but decorated now with towering waves. Saidar still seemed to be there, though, not being wielded by anyone, not visible, but in dimly felt flashes like those that had played around the Bowl at the end.
Nynaeve raised her head to glower at the cloudless sky, then lowered her gaze to Caire. “All that, for what? Did we do anything, or not?” A breath of air stirred across the hilltop, warm as the air in a kitchen.
The Windfinder struggled to her feet. “Do you think Weaving the Winds is like throwing the helm over on a darter?” she demanded contemptuously. “I just moved the rudder on a skimmer with a beam as broad as the world! He will take time to turn, time to know he is supposed to turn. That he must turn. But when he does, not the Father of Storms himself will be able to stand in his way. I have done it, Aes Sedai, and the Bowl of the Winds is ours!”
Renaile moved into the circle, kneeling beside the Bowl. Carefully she began folding the white silk around it. “I will take this to the Mistress of the Ships,” she said to Nynaeve. “We have fulfilled our part of the bargain. Now, you Aes Sedai must fulfill the rest of yours.” Merilille made a sound in her throat, but when Elayne glanced at her, the Gray appeared a study in composure.
“Maybe you’ve done your part,” Nynaeve said, rising unsteadily. “Maybe. We’ll see when this . . . this skimmer of yours turns. If it turns!” Renaile stared hard at her across the Bowl, but Nynaeve ignored her. “Strange,” she muttered, rubbing her temple. The bracelet-and-rings caught in her hair, and she grimaced. “I can almost feel an echo of saidar. It must be this thing!”
“No,” Elayne said slowly. “I can feel it, too.” Not just the dimly perceived crackling in the air, and not an echo, exactly. More the shadow of an echo, so faint that it was as if she were feeling someone use saidar at a. . . . She turned. On the horizon to the south, lightning flashed, dozens of bolts vivid silver-blue against the afternoon sky. Very near to Ebou Dar.

Right from the first Elayne wished that she had asked Aviendha for the woman-cloaked-in-her-own-hair; she was weary, too, and all the saidar she could draw was barely enough to form the weave so it would work. The flows wavered in her grasp almost as if trying to twist free, then snapped into place so suddenly that she jumped; channeling when you were tired was not at all like other times, but this was the worst ever. At least the familiar vertical slash of silver appeared as it should, and widened into an opening right alongside the cistern. An opening no bigger than the one Aviendha had made, and at that, Elayne was grateful it was large enough to fit a horse through. At the last, she had not been certain it would be. Gasps rose from the Kinswomen, seeing a view of an upland meadow suddenly standing between them and the familiar gray bulk of the cistern.

Rynjin

2021-09-17, 10:32 PM

What purpose does saying he is strong serve if it never comes up or matters to the narrative? Informed attribute is just sloppy writing.

I think it can matter in terms of showing that a character's skill and intelligence matters more than their raw ability. If we see one guy throwing around enough power to level mountains, but getting beat by someone who's definitively weaker, but just BETTER it makes the protagonists come across as more than just "the chosen ones who have however much ability they need to succeed". The victory becomes more earned.

This is something they could make more explicit in the show and make a really good scene out of.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 10:40 PM

I think it can matter in terms of showing that a character's skill and intelligence matters more than their raw ability. If we see one guy throwing around enough power to level mountains, but getting beat by someone who's definitively weaker, but just BETTER it makes the protagonists come across as more than just "the chosen ones who have however much ability they need to succeed". The victory becomes more earned.

This is something they could make more explicit in the show and make a really good scene out of.

In my mind, the way to show Aginor's skill and intelligence would precisely be to not have him be as strong as the others, yet still high ranking in the Shadow regardless thanks to his utility. Sort of what they tried (and failed) to do with Be'lal.

Elayne's unweaving, not Avihenda's. However, the strange feel began before the unweaving was attempted.

None of those are conclusive; she was channeling while extremely tired at the time.

Hopefully we can at least agree that whether the Bowl was the cause of the anomaly or the Unweaving, both happening in roughly the same spot didn't help matters.

russdm

2021-09-17, 11:16 PM

So, I then got a number of the Forsaken confused with each other. Interesting

Was my list of remembered plot events accurate any, in the post with what I thought were the various Forsaken? Or I am remembering a bunch of those wrong? It feels like I am.

Saph

2021-09-18, 01:53 AM

In my mind, the way to show Aginor's skill and intelligence would precisely be to not have him be as strong as the others, yet still high ranking in the Shadow regardless thanks to his utility. Sort of what they tried (and failed) to do with Be'lal.

Aginor is a mad scientist, not a battlefield commander. This actually explains quite a lot about the various Shadowspawn once you think about it – Trollocs, for example, are a "perfect soldier" as designed by someone who'd never commanded soldiers.

Skill and intelligence at bio-science does not make you a capable duellist or strategist.

Psyren

2021-09-18, 10:20 AM

Aginor is a mad scientist, not a battlefield commander. This actually explains quite a lot about the various Shadowspawn once you think about it – Trollocs, for example, are a "perfect soldier" as designed by someone who'd never commanded soldiers.

Skill and intelligence at bio-science does not make you a capable duellist or strategist.

I agree with all that. So what's the point in saying he's technically stronger than almost all of them if he can't ever use that strength? It doesn't make sense.

Blackhawk748

2021-09-18, 11:56 AM

I agree with all that. So what's the point in saying he's technically stronger than almost all of them if he can't ever use that strength? It doesn't make sense.

Because his raw strength lies I've very different skills. It's be like having a healer who has incredible capacity with the Power but has no real skill outside of healing.

Sapphire Guard

2021-09-18, 12:10 PM

A writing technique is never bad writing by itself. It's in how it's used.

If you only ever write things that are strictly necessary for the story, then you end up with very stale generic predictable stories, because the reader can metagame and predict everything.

Psyren

2021-09-18, 12:14 PM

Because his raw strength lies I've very different skills. It's be like having a healer who has incredible capacity with the Power but has no real skill outside of healing.

But nothing he's good at is established as needing strength, so it doesn't add anything. We don't know anything about the process to create shadowspawn in the first place. Maybe it uses the True Power? If so, why isn't he showing any of the effects of that? He would have had to tap it pretty regularly to make all the varieties of shadowspawn that he did, were that the case.

Like if they want to say "he's totally one of the strongest, trust us, even though he gets his ass kicked every time he fights literally anyone" - then that's their prerogative. But for me, it's just sloppy.

tiornys

2021-09-18, 12:57 PM

Like if they want to say "he's totally one of the strongest, trust us, even though he gets his ass kicked every time he fights literally anyone" - then that's their prerogative. But for me, it's just sloppy.
Why does it bother you so much for strength to be separate from combat skill? Frankly it adds verisimilitude for me since it parallels physical strength vs. physical combat ability in real life.

Psyren

2021-09-18, 01:52 PM

Why does it bother you so much for strength to be separate from combat skill? Frankly it adds verisimilitude for me since it parallels physical strength vs. physical combat ability in real life.

Being separate from combat isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is that his strength isn't used for anything in the story. Pointing it out is thus useless.

Let me tackle this from a different direction - if they had said Aginor was weaker than the others, but valued for his brilliant research for the Shadow, would any of you have questioned it?

Anteros

2021-09-18, 02:15 PM

Maybe it takes a lot of power to make a Trolloc. It does to make ter'angreal and such.

Regardless, the whole point of describing the Forsaken to the reader or the protagonists is to make them seem threatening and build them up. There's not much narrative point in a weak forsaken. Especially since they have plenty of flaws already.

Sapphire Guard

2021-09-18, 02:17 PM

No, but I wasn't questioning it the other way either.

I'm also not seeing the reason 'useless' is seen as the same as 'bad, and needs to be removed or else it's bad writing'.

Psyren

2021-09-18, 02:43 PM

There's not much narrative point in a weak forsaken. Especially since they have plenty of flaws already.

By weak I meant "weak for a Forsaken" - like Be'lal and Moghedien. Note how both of those two bring something else to the Shadow (clever planning - well, that one ended up being an informed attribute too, but anyway - and TAR power) that makes up for them being weaker than the others in a raw sense.

I'm also not seeing the reason 'useless' is seen as the same as 'bad, and needs to be removed or else it's bad writing'.

It's more extraneous/inelegant/sloppy than outright bad.

The show may not bother with explicit power levels anyway, which would render this whole topic moot.

Traab

2021-09-18, 03:15 PM

You could make the case that every Forsaken who tried to kill Rand was kind of a moron. Aside from their own personal idiocy, they should all know enough about how prophecy works to know that Rand isn’t going to die before he does all the various things he’s been foretold to do (WoT has some unpleasant implications for fans of free will). So I’ll give Lanfear half a pass for trying to control Rand rather than kill him, but take that away because her only reason for that is that she’s still hung up on her ex 3,000 freaking years later.

Ishy is a special case, though. When we see him as Moridin he clearly gets that Rand is going to be at TG, and he’s working to manipulate everything leading up to that, not to stop it. Early-book Ishy is less clear, but my headcanon is that he wasn’t really trying to win when Rand fought him in the first two books, and even when Rand killed him that may have all been according to plan.

This I disagree with. Just because your plan wont work doesnt negate the existence of free will. You can choose to try and murder someone that fate says will survive. Choice doesnt equal success. In fact, it proves free will is a real thing because despite the existence of the prophecy that they all know, they still try to kill him anyways. Because they chose to. Personally, if I wanted to be smart, the way i would deal with rand is to strike wherever he isnt. You can win a game of chess by capturing all the pieces rather than focusing on the king. Instead of going after rand, go after his support. Take out his advisors, take out his armies, take out his backing. He can come to the last battle with the half dozen buddies he managed to keep near him and avoid assassination attempts. Use your agents to spread discord and resistance to rand as the dragon reborn, cost him allies through manipulation and deceit. Never fight him directly unless you have absolutely no choice. Even then, fight to escape or to force a retreat, because a kill aint happening.

Also, the whole thing with the big fight in shadar logoth. Wasnt part of the reasoning being that the absurd taint in the area made channeling the male half of the power far more difficult and dangerous? it has been SO LONG since I read the books, but I seem to remember channeling being a problem for rand there. Like the taint resonated with the even fouler taint in shadar logoth, making it harder to maintain control or some such. Personally, if I had 3k years experience in using the power on my opponent, going to a place where using the power is harder would be a good idea as i would have a clear advantage that would just get stronger over the course of the fight.

lord_khaine

2021-09-18, 04:25 PM

I agree with all that. So what's the point in saying he's technically stronger than almost all of them if he can't ever use that strength? It doesn't make sense.

Why does it have to make sense?
It helps drive home that forsaken tier strenght is in part a case of lucking out on the "genetic" dice.
When a lab nerd is still absurdly strong, even if he newer seriously learned to fight. Because he dont care about it.

Also, the whole thing with

As i recall the main part was Sammael had prepared the battlefield ahead of time. It was basically covered in detection wards.
But if it hindered channeling Sammaen had even more advantage, since he was protected from the taint.

Psyren

2021-09-18, 05:31 PM

Why does it have to make sense?

I suppose it doesn't, at that :smalltongue::smalltongue:

TheStranger

2021-09-18, 06:33 PM

This I disagree with. Just because your plan wont work doesnt negate the existence of free will. You can choose to try and murder someone that fate says will survive. Choice doesnt equal success. In fact, it proves free will is a real thing because despite the existence of the prophecy that they all know, they still try to kill him anyways. Because they chose to. Personally, if I wanted to be smart, the way i would deal with rand is to strike wherever he isnt. You can win a game of chess by capturing all the pieces rather than focusing on the king. Instead of going after rand, go after his support. Take out his advisors, take out his armies, take out his backing. He can come to the last battle with the half dozen buddies he managed to keep near him and avoid assassination attempts. Use your agents to spread discord and resistance to rand as the dragon reborn, cost him allies through manipulation and deceit. Never fight him directly unless you have absolutely no choice. Even then, fight to escape or to force a retreat, because a kill aint happening.

Also, the whole thing with the big fight in shadar logoth. Wasnt part of the reasoning being that the absurd taint in the area made channeling the male half of the power far more difficult and dangerous? it has been SO LONG since I read the books, but I seem to remember channeling being a problem for rand there. Like the taint resonated with the even fouler taint in shadar logoth, making it harder to maintain control or some such. Personally, if I had 3k years experience in using the power on my opponent, going to a place where using the power is harder would be a good idea as i would have a clear advantage that would just get stronger over the course of the fight.

I’m not sure having free will but being doomed to fail is substantially better than not having free will, but ymmv. I agree with you on the smart way to fight Rand. I think it’s implied that once Rand reaches TG there’s a pivotal point beyond which things aren’t predetermined, but I could be misremembering that. Or try to turn Rand so that his victory is the Shadow’s victory. Or, wasn’t Lanfear involved in freeing the Dark One in the first place? What stops the Forsaken from letting Rand “win” TG and sacrifice himself to fix the seals, then poking a new hole in the Dark One’s prison?

I think Sammael is a good illustration of the difference between strategy and tactics. If Sammael had a good plan for fighting Rand, and executed his plan perfectly, and the result is that he came in an impressively close second in a fight to the death, he may have made a strategic error somewhere along the way. I mean, if your plan is good, and your execution is good, you ought to be the one standing at the end. Alternately, you want to go to great lengths to avoid situations where good planning and good execution still get you killed.

Mat gets this, I think. Completely aside from tactics, he’s pretty consistent in wanting to have the battle won before the fighting even starts, and in wanting to avoid the battle entirely otherwise (and just on general principles - a man could get killed in a battle, you know).

Traab

2021-09-18, 06:47 PM

I’m not sure having free will but being doomed to fail is substantially better than not having free will, but ymmv. I agree with you on the smart way to fight Rand. I think it’s implied that once Rand reaches TG there’s a pivotal point beyond which things aren’t predetermined, but I could be misremembering that. Or try to turn Rand so that his victory is the Shadow’s victory. Or, wasn’t Lanfear involved in freeing the Dark One in the first place? What stops the Forsaken from letting Rand “win” TG and sacrifice himself to fix the seals, then poking a new hole in the Dark One’s prison?

I think Sammael is a good illustration of the difference between strategy and tactics. If Sammael had a good plan for fighting Rand, and executed his plan perfectly, and the result is that he came in an impressively close second in a fight to the death, he may have made a strategic error somewhere along the way. I mean, if your plan is good, and your execution is good, you ought to be the one standing at the end. Alternately, you want to go to great lengths to avoid situations where good planning and good execution still get you killed.

Mat gets this, I think. Completely aside from tactics, he’s pretty consistent in wanting to have the battle won before the fighting even starts, and in wanting to avoid the battle entirely otherwise (and just on general principles - a man could get killed in a battle, you know).

As a general rule, your comments on plans and such make sense. But only in the real world where fate itself doesnt seem to be going out of its way to enforce destiny. I mean, lets say you had the perfect plan to fight someone in hand to hand combat. This plan was working, you are closing in for the kill. Then you accidentally slip on a pencil that was half buried in the sand and do the splits, tearing your groin. Your opponent proceeds to snap your neck like a twig while you scream in agony. Was your plan a bad one because pure chance cost you the win? Thats the problem the bad guys are facing. "pure chance" by which I mean the universe itself, ensures that SOMETHING will happen to allow rand to at least survive if not outright win a lethal confrontation. It doesnt matter if they went full xanatos with a 90 step plan that has 50 different outcomes that end in victory all of which are entirely out of rands ability to directly even know are happening let alone influence, if at the last second, just as you are about to land the killing blow, a pigeon flies in front of your swing and causes you to flinch, missing your final strike. And yeah, I love Matt, especially early on in his career as an officer and a gentleman. I still remember him charging the enemy with his newly formed band behind him, screaming out curses in the old tongue while everyone copies him thinking its a battle cry and not him cursing himself for a fool for doing something so stupid. :smallbiggrin:

Misery Esquire

2021-09-18, 07:20 PM

I still remember him charging the enemy with his newly formed band behind him, screaming out curses in the old tongue while everyone copies him thinking its a battle cry and not him cursing himself for a fool for doing something so stupid. :smallbiggrin:

Mat : Men! As we go into battle today, be sure of two things! Victory, and salwenya vost den mogde volestia*!
Noble 1 : What'd he say?
Noble 2 : Uh... Fools... We fools. Without choice? Oh, I get it.
Noble 1 : Do tell!
Noble 2 : Fate makes fools of us all.
Noble 1 : Ah, he's very wise for such a young lord.
Noble 2 : Friends with the Dragon, you know.

*Old Tongue for "We're the only idiots that they could get to do this."

Anteros

2021-09-18, 07:59 PM

Rynjin

2021-09-18, 08:15 PM

TheStranger

2021-09-18, 08:20 PM

As a general rule, your comments on plans and such make sense. But only in the real world where fate itself doesnt seem to be going out of its way to enforce destiny. I mean, lets say you had the perfect plan to fight someone in hand to hand combat. This plan was working, you are closing in for the kill. Then you accidentally slip on a pencil that was half buried in the sand and do the splits, tearing your groin. Your opponent proceeds to snap your neck like a twig while you scream in agony. Was your plan a bad one because pure chance cost you the win? Thats the problem the bad guys are facing. "pure chance" by which I mean the universe itself, ensures that SOMETHING will happen to allow rand to at least survive if not outright win a lethal confrontation. It doesnt matter if they went full xanatos with a 90 step plan that has 50 different outcomes that end in victory all of which are entirely out of rands ability to directly even know are happening let alone influence, if at the last second, just as you are about to land the killing blow, a pigeon flies in front of your swing and causes you to flinch, missing your final strike. And yeah, I love Matt, especially early on in his career as an officer and a gentleman. I still remember him charging the enemy with his newly formed band behind him, screaming out curses in the old tongue while everyone copies him thinking its a battle cry and not him cursing himself for a fool for doing something so stupid. :smallbiggrin:

I get your point that bad luck can screw up the best plans, and I agree that Rand’s plot armor makes it harder to say whether Sammael‘s plan is otherwise good. But Rand is known in-universe to have plot armor, so any plan that doesn’t take that into account is suspect, IMO. Sammael is fixated on defeating Rand in battle/combat as his path to victory. It makes perfect sense given what we know of him as a character, but I don’t think it’s half as smart as the Forsaken that try to control him instead.

Even setting aside plot armor, Forsaken fighting Rand were 0-for-4 at that point counting only the ones Sammael knew about, including Be’Lal and Rahvin on their own turf. So Sammael’s brilliant plan is to engineer another one-on-one fight? Also, and this is an important planning consideration, he dies if things go bad. There’s a time to go all-in on a coin toss, but it shouldn’t be Plan A. There’s a reason Graendal was happy to see Sammael trying it.

Contrast Mesaana’s Rand-in-a-box gambit (I can’t recall if it was ever stated to be her plan, but I don’t think much was happening in the Tower without her approval at that point). Obviously it didn’t work out, but I don’t recall that it had the disadvantage of requiring prophecy to be wrong in order to succeed. And even though it failed, Mesaana lost basically nothing from the attempt other than a few Black sisters. Plus, even the failure has some good outcomes in the impact on Rand’s mental state. To me, that looks a lot smarter than Sammael putting all his eggs in the basket of being able to beat Rand in a fight.

Anteros

2021-09-18, 09:00 PM

This isn't entirely accurate, from what I remember. Isn't the point of the Last Battle that all bets are off? This is the one where the Dark One COULD finally win permanently, because while fate will arrange for the Last Dragon to get TO the battle, it doesn't guarantee victory?

And, of course, Rand only survives to the Last Battle if he is, in fact, the prophesied Dragon. There's a few points in the series where it's possible he could have been yet another impostor besides the obvious meta knowledge that we know he's the main character (and therefore...he's gonna win anyway).

I could be misremembering, but I believe that it is very heavily implied that the DO's only possible win condition is driving Rand so insane that he destroys the pattern itself. Also, considering it's a cycle and he's 0/infinity on wins, even on cycles where the Dragon defects to his side...yeah. Not really high stakes.

I get your point that bad luck can screw up the best plans, and I agree that Rand’s plot armor makes it harder to say whether Sammael‘s plan is otherwise good. But Rand is known in-universe to have plot armor, so any plan that doesn’t take that into account is suspect, IMO. Sammael is fixated on defeating Rand in battle/combat as his path to victory. It makes perfect sense given what we know of him as a character, but I don’t think it’s half as smart as the Forsaken that try to control him instead.

Even setting aside plot armor, Forsaken fighting Rand were 0-for-4 at that point counting only the ones Sammael knew about, including Be’Lal and Rahvin on their own turf. So Sammael’s brilliant plan is to engineer another one-on-one fight? Also, and this is an important planning consideration, he dies if things go bad. There’s a time to go all-in on a coin toss, but it shouldn’t be Plan A. There’s a reason Graendal was happy to see Sammael trying it.

Contrast Mesaana’s Rand-in-a-box gambit (I can’t recall if it was ever stated to be her plan, but I don’t think much was happening in the Tower without her approval at that point). Obviously it didn’t work out, but I don’t recall that it had the disadvantage of requiring prophecy to be wrong in order to succeed. And even though it failed, Mesaana lost basically nothing from the attempt other than a few Black sisters. Plus, even the failure has some good outcomes in the impact on Rand’s mental state. To me, that looks a lot smarter than Sammael putting all his eggs in the basket of being able to beat Rand in a fight.

To be fair to Sammael, he tried to broker a truce, and when that didn't work he tried a sneak attack at Cairhien. He didn't opt for a straightforward fight until Rand made it clear he had no choice. He's not the type of person who can just manipulate from the shadows. Sure he has compulsion, but his strengths are army building and strategy, not manipulation.

Psyren

2021-09-19, 01:25 PM

That's one of the things I actually don't like about the setting. Ultimately, Moridin is right. They ARE stuck in an endless loop without real free will. Sure, they can (maybe) make small decisions for themselves, but ultimately the pattern is going to loop them back around to the same major events no matter what they do.

Even the protagonist's victory is basically pre-ordained when you consider that they've won the conflict what is basically an infinite number of times in a row before. It really lowers the stakes of the story once you figure out that the protagonists can't actually lose.

My understanding is that the protagonists have lost in the past, just never so badly that the Wheel got broken. Past Dragons have died or gotten Turned, but the good guys managed to eke out a stalemate in those instances, kicking the can down the road to another age or even another turning of the Wheel entirely.

My take on Moridin's/Shai'tan's philosophy:

"We are reborn," Rand thought, "so we can do better the next time. So do better."

Yes, if you remove man's capacity do evil entirely, you've created a world without free will and that's just as bad as the Dark One winning.

But I also think there's a difference between evil and Evil. The Dark One's variety of Evil is flat impossible to win against without a Dragon and destiny itself batting cleanup. When you have bad guys that can forcibly convert your magical artillery to his side, keep bringing back your worst enemies unless they're killed a very specific way, transform your civilians into shock troops with special powers and even taint your only means of effectively fighting back, that's a level of force that just can't be beaten without a prophesied Chosen One.

Comparatively more mundane "evils" like the Seanchan and the Children, even the Finns - and new ones yet to come - can still exist without the former. Mankind will have to deal with those themselves, but that's the point of free will. And without Shai'tan's absolute corruption in the Pattern, we'll have a fighting chance to do so.

Sapphire Guard

2021-09-19, 02:42 PM

lord_khaine

2021-09-19, 04:02 PM

My understanding is that the protagonists have lost in the past, just never so badly that the Wheel got broken. Past Dragons have died or gotten Turned, but the good guys managed to eke out a stalemate in those instances, kicking the can down the road to another age or even another turning of the Wheel entirely.

I dont know. I do think it sounded like, that killing the Dragon, or turning him, was at best a stalemate for the DO.
Because it had taken place before the Dragon "Awakening" to his role.

At that point it became impossible to stop him from getting to the last battle.
But in turn, turning the Dragon there was the DO's one true victory condition.
Since nothing else would allow the DO to break free.

Seerow

2021-09-19, 06:02 PM

I dont know. I do think it sounded like, that killing the Dragon, or turning him, was at best a stalemate for the DO.
Because it had taken place before the Dragon "Awakening" to his role.

At that point it became impossible to stop him from getting to the last battle.
But in turn, turning the Dragon there was the DO's one true victory condition.
Since nothing else would allow the DO to break free.

Considering the DO's true endgame is the annihilation of the universe, one would hope that the chance of it actually happening is actually really small. Rand dying/turning is plenty of stakes for the purpose of a story and the characters involved. The fact that the universe is on the line explains why the Dark One keeps doing this, and how hard it is to toe the line to make that happen explains why it hasn't happened yet despite countless past attempts, without completely neutering the Dark One as a force to fear

Rynjin

2021-09-19, 06:04 PM

There's quite a lot of leeway between 'complete destruction of the universe is unlikely' and 'no stakes'.

Sammael is attacked. He doesn't pick a fight at all. The Forsaken's plan was actually for him to be attacked, and then Rahvin and Graendal would back him up. He was unhappy about that, for obvious reasons.

Rand's not invincible, Fain got in a good stab that put him down hard.

He also, you know, got one of his hands blown off.

I wonder how the Amazon series is going to handle that if they get to it, or if they're going to chicken out like The Walking Dead tv series did?

Psyren

2021-09-19, 06:15 PM

He also, you know, got one of his hands blown off.

I wonder how the Amazon series is going to handle that if they get to it, or if they're going to chicken out like The Walking Dead tv series did?

Probably like Game of Thrones did. Or have Nynaeve figure out regeneration.

Traab

2021-09-19, 06:28 PM

Something else to keep in mind about free will and its implications when prophecy is involved. As ive said before, just because the outcome is predetermined, it doesnt mean the choices made along the way are, so free will is still a thing, but that aside, the other 99.999% of the universe not being guided around by an immutable destiny does not even have that little of a limit on what their free will can accomplish. David Eddings actually had something very similar in his belgariad/mallorean series. We learn, deep into the series iirc, that the accident that caused the whole child of light and dark thing to happen in the first place, has also frozen the universe so events are constantly cycling through the same general path over and over again as each side racks up points that will lead to the final EVENT where the choice will be made and a final victor will be determined. This has been going on since before their world existed. And its only at the end it has become obvious because the cycle is accelerating as it approaches the end. Its only after belgarath has been working for a few thousand years on this, and the same child of light is in place to experience the events all over again, albeit with different particulars. The series has its prophecies, and its set in stone, such that even the gods trying to avert certain events fail in the attempt and suffer for it. But even then its not what the outcome will be, just that at a certain time and with certain people, an event will occur.

Rodin

2021-09-20, 03:22 PM

Probably like Game of Thrones did. Or have Nynaeve figure out regeneration.

Depends on what difficulty you're concerned about. Gore avoidance for losing a hand is actually easier with a Fantasy show than it is with something like Walking Dead - you just have a flashy fire effect, then cauterized stump Empire Strikes Back style.

The bit where it gets hard is if it sticks around for a while. You have to figure out the best way to show the character missing a hand for a long period of time. GoT did it with the mechanical hand, which lets the actor wear a glove. Wheel of Time doesn't have that elegant solution, but it is a much higher magic setting so they could easily justify him getting it healed after being without for a few episodes.

Psyren

2021-09-20, 03:31 PM

Depends on what difficulty you're concerned about. Gore avoidance for losing a hand is actually easier with a Fantasy show than it is with something like Walking Dead - you just have a flashy fire effect, then cauterized stump Empire Strikes Back style.

The bit where it gets hard is if it sticks around for a while. You have to figure out the best way to show the character missing a hand for a long period of time. GoT did it with the mechanical hand, which lets the actor wear a glove. Wheel of Time doesn't have that elegant solution, but it is a much higher magic setting so they could easily justify him getting it healed after being without for a few episodes.

Or he could just get a golden hand of his own like Jaime did, diverging from the books slightly. DarkRand is certainly vain enough, and it wouldn't change the narrative really.

Something else to keep in mind about free will and its implications when prophecy is involved. As ive said before, just because the outcome is predetermined, it doesnt mean the choices made along the way are, so free will is still a thing, but that aside, the other 99.999% of the universe not being guided around by an immutable destiny does not even have that little of a limit on what their free will can accomplish. David Eddings actually had something very similar in his belgariad/mallorean series. We learn, deep into the series iirc, that the accident that caused the whole child of light and dark thing to happen in the first place, has also frozen the universe so events are constantly cycling through the same general path over and over again as each side racks up points that will lead to the final EVENT where the choice will be made and a final victor will be determined. This has been going on since before their world existed. And its only at the end it has become obvious because the cycle is accelerating as it approaches the end. Its only after belgarath has been working for a few thousand years on this, and the same child of light is in place to experience the events all over again, albeit with different particulars. The series has its prophecies, and its set in stone, such that even the gods trying to avert certain events fail in the attempt and suffer for it. But even then its not what the outcome will be, just that at a certain time and with certain people, an event will occur.

I personally think the immutable (or mostly immutable?) prophecy stuff only applies to TG:
Once the Dark One is out of the picture, all bets are off. Much like how Aviendha's vision of the Aiel's future was only a possible one.

Saph

2021-09-21, 02:42 AM

Well, apparently Mat Cauthon has been recast (https://deadline.com/2021/09/the-wheel-of-time-donal-finn-to-play-mat-cauthon-in-recasting-on-amazon-series-as-barney-harris-not-returning-for-season-2-1234840887/amp/). Season 1's Mat Cauthon is played by Barney Harris, while Season 2's Mat will be played by Donal Flinn (apparently he was a minor character in The Witcher).

That's going to be a little awkward to explain in the Season 2 premiere.

Rand: "Wow, Mat, you look . . . uh . . . different . . . with the dagger gone."
Mat: "Yeah, that Aes Sedai healing made a new man out of me."

Anteros

2021-09-21, 03:00 AM

He looks a little more like how I pictured Mat. I wonder what prompted the recast though.

Saph

2021-09-21, 03:08 AM

He looks a little more like how I pictured Mat. I wonder what prompted the recast though.

You'd expect a company like Amazon to lock in its actors pretty strictly, so it's probably a case of Amazon firing him, rather than the actor deciding to quit. There's a good chance we won't know the real reason for years, though.

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-21, 06:45 AM

I would have said the opposite. Amazon is really invested in this cast's success and would have made double sure to get it right the first time, so it's more likely that Barney Harris dropped out for personal or (heavens forbid) health reasons.

Like you said though, it's unlikely we'll know what happened, for the actor's privacy, so all we can do is look forward to the new guy.

It's unfortunate that this news leaked before the season dropped, since it means Harris' performance will be colored by the knowledge that he won't be what we'll seeing for future seasons, but it is what it is.

I hope Harris' performance is great, and that he's in good health, and I hope Finn's performance is great too.

I've watched some of the clips circulating around on Twitter of Time and he's, like, mega cute and already has big Mat Caution energy all by himself so at least he has that going for him

Psyren

2021-09-21, 09:42 AM

Twitter of Time is all over the place with this news, but one of the funnier reactions I saw today:

"It's actually easy. Barney goes into an inn, eats three chickens, Donal comes out. Three chickens can change a man"

Ashen Lilies

2021-09-21, 09:51 AM

Twitter of Time is going through the six stages of recasting grief. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, horny, acceptance.

Corvus

2021-09-22, 12:10 AM

Leaving the show before the first season has even aired. Thats not a good look.

Mechalich

2021-09-22, 01:00 AM

Leaving the show before the first season has even aired. Thats not a good look.

Partly that's a Covid thing. The first season's been mostly finished for over a year now, and the second season is currently filming. Makes it rather difficult to hide this news.

Quality of performance is pretty much the only reason for this recasting that would actually be a problem for the show, and I don't think it anywhere near the most likely. Health, some kind of personal trouble, or a personality conflict within the cast all seem more likely (extended location shoots in foreign countries are hard on actors, doubly so young ones, triply so under Covid protocols). It's not uncommon for shows with large ensemble casts to have actors who personally despise each other in the mix - GoT famously had to keep Bronn and Cersei separate for this reason - and a role as big as Mat's is sufficiently important to force Amazon to make a choice in an 'it's either him/her or me' kind of scenario.

Ashen Lilies

2021-10-08, 02:19 PM

New clip out today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIMkfP4JsxU

InvisibleBison

2021-10-08, 03:39 PM

New clip out today:

Interesting. Obviously it's hard to judge from such a short clip, but I'm not sure I like the amount of tension they put in that scene. Also Moiraine was immediately recognized as Aes Sedai, which is probably an irrelevant change but perhaps not - the only real difference would be in the scene where she gives Rand and Mat the tracker coins, which for all we know might have been cut entirely.

Psyren

2021-10-08, 04:58 PM

It's not much of a change actually - Marin al'Vere identified what she was in the books too, it just happened offscreen during the Women's Circle meeting after Fain arrived.

Looks like this scene takes place some time after Egwene's river-shove initiation by Nynaeve. (Way to walk in in a black cloak Lan, that's not suspicious at all!)

Looks like Moiraine snubbing Nynaeve there is going to be the basis of some of their animosity in this book :smalltongue:

(Good grief, Rand's actor has a hella deep voice.)

Ashen Lilies

2021-10-08, 05:39 PM

I wonder if Moiraine and Lan rehearsed that dramatic entrance through ahead of time.

"Lan you're going to walk in and just stand there menacingly without taking your hood down or saying anything. I'm going to wait out here in the rain for 20 seconds until someone finally asks you who the bloody ashes you are. You're going to look so dramatic and badass, it's going to be great."

Josha's accent breaks through very slightly when he says "yeah yeah yeah" to Perrin and I found it kind of adorable.

Moiraine being pegged as an Aes Sedai instantly I see as kind of an efficiency of storytelling thing. It's an 8-hour season, you don't really have time to mess around. From that scene we immediately get an idea of just what Moiraine is and how everyone sees her - fear and suspicion mostly, respect and obedience from Marin mixed with fear, hostility from Nynaeve. I noticed that we get two shots of Egwene that immediately mark her as the odd one out. She seems more intrigued and curious than scared.

I ended up watching the panel at NYCC, and it was mostly fluff, but there were some interesting bits. The cast all seemed to connect with their characters very well. Josha (Rand) is the furthest along in reading the books, currently on book 11(!). Madeleine (Egwene) and Zoe (Nynaeve) are right behind him. We got an Elayne casting confirmation for S2 (Ceara Coveney) and two more casting announcements (Natasha O'Keeffe, Meera Syal) for undisclosed but "very important" roles. No idea who the first might be, but the second definitely looks like a Verin to me.

Corvus

2021-10-08, 06:08 PM

I don't know, I'm getting major generic vibes off it. Taking an iconic series and trying to make it look as 'fantasy' as possible.

And walking in with a hood up like that is a rookie mistake - it impedes situational awareness. And all to be a bit I'd a poser. That ain't Lan.

And the sword over the shoulder...*sigh*. That is one trope in fantasy that really needs to die.

And they have really changed up the opening of the book. Does make you wonder how much more will be changed.

InvisibleBison

2021-10-08, 06:17 PM

I don't know, I'm getting major generic vibes off it. Taking an iconic series and trying to make it look as 'fantasy' as possible.

I don't think that's really a problem. This scene is set in the Two Rivers, which is supposed to be a fairly generic-fantasy-esque place.

Corvus

2021-10-08, 06:45 PM

I don't think that's really a problem. This scene is set in the Two Rivers, which is supposed to be a fairly generic-fantasy-esque place.
But in this case you get a tavern scene so generic that it could be the start of every d&d campaign.

There was no tavern scene in the books and two rivers was a bit more sombre than that because winter was not ending.

Psyren

2021-10-08, 07:29 PM

walking in with a hood up like that is a rookie mistake - it impedes situational awareness. And all to be a bit I'd a poser. That ain't Lan.

Yeah, gotta watch out for those sheepherders and thatchers man. That Cenn Buie, he gets right in your blind spot and bam!

Corvus

2021-10-08, 07:37 PM

Yeah, gotta watch out for those sheepherders and thatchers man. That Cenn Buie, he gets right in your blind spot and bam!

So he is magically aware of exactly who everyone is before he enters?

The_Snark

2021-10-08, 08:27 PM

That Cenn Buie, he gets right in your blind spot and bam!

It's no joke! You let him get up close and pow, suddenly you've wasted half the day trying to excuse yourself while he complains about kids these days.

Psyren

2021-10-08, 08:48 PM

So he is magically aware of exactly who everyone is before he enters?

No, but he's been to small remote villages before. Once or twice. You don't need "magic" to roll a knowledge check.

(I mean come on, freaking Elaida knew what Two Rivers people are like, yet you think Lan doesn't?)

It's no joke! You let him get up close and pow, suddenly you've wasted half the day trying to excuse yourself while he complains about kids these days.

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Ashen Lilies

2021-10-08, 08:50 PM

Shoulda just sent Cenn Buie to Shayol Ghul. A couple hours with him and Shai'tan woulda sealed himself away just for some peace and quiet.

Psyren

2021-10-08, 09:02 PM

Shoulda just sent Cenn Buie to Shayol Ghul. A couple hours with him and Shai'tan woulda sealed himself away just for some peace and quiet.

Throw in some Coplins and Congars to handle the Forsaken and that's 10 books gone right there!

Corvus

2021-10-08, 09:08 PM

No, but he's been to small remote villages before. Once or twice. You don't need "magic" to roll a knowledge check.

(I mean come on, freaking Elaida knew what Two Rivers people are like, yet you think Lan doesn't?

That's the sort of complacency Lan never showed in the books and is a surefire way to get your ward killed eventually.

I seem to recall it was Morgase who knew about the Two Rivers, not Elaida.

Anteros

2021-10-08, 11:33 PM

That's the sort of complacency Lan never showed in the books and is a surefire way to get your ward killed eventually.

I seem to recall it was Morgase who knew about the Two Rivers, not Elaida.

Plus, there's actual trollocs and a fade around. So even if he thought he could be complacent he'd be wrong. Just a terrible take all around.

Psyren

2021-10-09, 12:50 AM

Plus, there's actual trollocs and a fade around. So even if he thought he could be complacent he'd be wrong. Just a terrible take all around.

He explicitly didn't know about those until after the attack in the books. But I guess book Lan was careless too.

I seem to recall it was Morgase who knew about the Two Rivers, not Elaida.

You're wrong. Want the quote?

Mechalich

2021-10-09, 03:02 AM

And the sword over the shoulder...*sigh*. That is one trope in fantasy that really needs to die.

It's a filming convention really, having to do with the needs of shooting. A sword worn on the hip moves around with the actor, meaning it will be in different places from one shot to the next. Because scenes are often shot out of order and different takes cut together to form the same scene this means a sword worn on the hip is likely to ride around all over the place and look very messy unless extreme care is taken. A sword worn in a shoulder harness doesn't move around the body and is therefore more easily carried throughout the working day without need for constant adjustment.

There's a lot of shooting/prop conventions like this that affect film and TV, even in terms of modern settings. For example, prop blades are blunted and thickened at the tip for the safety of the cast - because a sufficiently narrow point, even if blunt, easily puts out an eye - which means they are heavier than they should be and have altered angles. Likewise props are often made to show attacks penetrating through armor as if its made of paper in ways that simply aren't physically possible because it's easier to mock up an injury that way - ex. grafting an arrow onto a breastplate where it won't move or be knocked off by the actor laughing.

Fantasy (and really historical fiction too) has the problem that a lot of fantasy authors reach back to old fantasy programs they've seen, assume the filming is much more accurate than it actually is and not realizing that certain things are done for prosaic 'this was the only way we could easily assemble the shot' reasons and then write those tropes into their own material.

Sapphire Guard

2021-10-09, 05:44 AM

Traab

2021-10-09, 06:51 AM

Im not too happy with the entrance. It seems strange that the entire inn would silence itself right away. I would have expected it to go, door opens, a few look to see who it is, and get serious because its a stranger, others notice them looking and the noise dies out in a wave as everyone there realizes something is happening. I actually had to go back and rewatch it to make sure lan hadnt been super dramatic like throwing the door open with a slam or whatever. Then reacting that way to a stranger made perfect sense, it was just too sudden of a reaction.

Sapphire Guard

2021-10-09, 07:20 AM

Eh, opening a door during a giant storm would create a big cold draft, it would draw attention quickly.

Rynjin

2021-10-09, 07:22 AM

Ripple effects from removing the Aes Sedai agelessness are going to be annoying, yeah. I'm guessing they didn't account for that when writing the scene.

Palanan

2021-10-09, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by Corvus
But in this case you get a tavern scene so generic that it could be the start of every d&d campaign.

It is aggressively generic, and a lot of that merry laughter came across as forced.

For someone like myself, who doesn’t know the books at all, it does nothing to convince me to explore this world. Even the rather cheesy tavern scenes in the first Hobbit movie had more personality and depth than this.

To those who have read the books, there are clearly layers of meaning involving characters that they’re able to pick out…but to those of us who haven’t, this is flat and opaque. I have to wonder how accessible the rest of it will be to newcomers.

So if the clip is intended to generate interest, it’s not doing much for those of us who aren’t already fans. I’m not writing this off based on a single clip, but I would like to see something that makes me actually interested in the world.

Originally Posted by Mechalich
Fantasy (and really historical fiction too) has the problem that a lot of fantasy authors reach back to old fantasy programs they've seen, assume the filming is much more accurate than it actually is and not realizing that certain things are done for prosaic 'this was the only way we could easily assemble the shot' reasons and then write those tropes into their own material.

Can you provide some specific examples of fantasy authors who have done this?

Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard
They have hoods up because they're coming in out of the rain….

This. When it’s cold and pouring outside, you want your hood up.

Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard
Eh, opening a door during a giant storm would create a big cold draft, it would draw attention quickly.

I was honestly waiting for one of the barmaids to shout out, “Shut the frickin’ door already!”

Rodin

2021-10-09, 08:23 AM

Ripple effects from removing the Aes Sedai agelessness are going to be annoying, yeah. I'm guessing they didn't account for that when writing the scene.

In a town as small as Emond's Field, a pair of strangers of any description (Aes Sedai or not) would immediately invite attention. The town is small enough that a peddler coming through is a major event. Attention is drawn first by Lan, who is clearly a warrior. When Moiraine comes in, it's clear from her dress that she's wealthy, which prompts the "My Lady". When the ring is seen, that's when the "Sedai" is added to her name.

lord_khaine

2021-10-09, 09:03 AM

Ripple effects from removing the Aes Sedai agelessness are going to be annoying, yeah. I'm guessing they didn't account for that when writing the scene.

Did they actively say they did so?
Seems like a strange choice. Would have though it was fairly easy to handle with modern makeup.

Anteros

2021-10-09, 09:31 AM

He explicitly didn't know about those until after the attack in the books. But I guess book Lan was careless too.

You're wrong. Want the quote?

No, because book Lan wasn't a careless and complacent buffoon that simply assumed they were safe because it's a small village. That was the whole point.

Rodin

2021-10-09, 09:41 AM

Did they actively say they did so?
Seems like a strange choice. Would have though it was fairly easy to handle with modern makeup.

Yes, they did. It's makeup/CGI that would be required for every second of every scene with every Aes Sedai. It would add up fast and not add terribly much. Same with the camouflage cloaks the Warders wear - you could CGI them pretty easily, but on a TV budget that's an expense that isn't worth doing.

I'm on board with it. Both Lan and Moiraine's appearances in the clip scream "not from around here", and that's one of the only times either the cloaks or the ageless faces matter.

lord_khaine

2021-10-09, 10:06 AM

Hmm.. reasonable point about the cost/benefit about the ageles look.
I guess there is a lot of other things to spend money on.

The_Snark

2021-10-09, 10:41 AM

Psyren

2021-10-09, 11:30 AM

No, because book Lan wasn't a careless and complacent buffoon that simply assumed they were safe because it's a small village. That was the whole point.

No, the point is you're vastly overblowing what wearing a hood for a couple of seconds does to Lan's awareness.

I was honestly waiting for one of the barmaids to shout out, “Shut the frickin’ door already!”

Technically the Winespring doesn't have "barmaids", those are Bran's daughters. The EF5 don't see a real barmaid until Baerlon.

Eh, opening a door during a giant storm would create a big cold draft, it would draw attention quickly.

Especially a storm on Winternight Eve.

Did they actively say they did so?
Seems like a strange choice. Would have though it was fairly easy to handle with modern makeup.

https://www.cbr.com/wheel-of-time-rafe-judkins-aes-sedai-ageless-cgi/

t209

2021-10-09, 11:30 AM

Any idea of the newcomer will realize that
that the fantasy world is post apocalyptic setting where magic is actually futuristic technology and one museum had a hood ornament of a car..

Psyren

2021-10-09, 11:33 AM

Any idea of the newcomer will realize that
that the fantasy world is post apocalyptic setting where magic is actually futuristic technology and one museum had a hood ornament of a car.

I'm sure they'll get around to hinting about it, but you need Thom to plant some of those seeds and I don't think he'lll be in it at the start.

Ramza00

2021-10-09, 12:09 PM

I'm sure they'll get around to hinting about it, but you need Thom to plant some of those seeds and I don't think he'lll be in it at the start.

Do we? The first chapter (technically the prologue) sets the first half of what we know with what t209 said. It is a multiple age system with reincarnation and different type of epochs, and the current epoch is a Post Apocalyptic setting and the messiah type figure is going to make it actually worse. All set up in the prologue.

Once that is brought up the second half of what t209 mentioned (lore from the books) is a natural speculation that many (but not all) people will make.

Regardless since we only have 8 hours to cover multiple books I bet it is going to remain just an easter egg and not get limited plot time.

Palanan

2021-10-09, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by t209
Any idea of the newcomer will realize that

...?

Cannot make sense of your syntax here.

As for the spoilered part...so this setting is like Shannara? Future tech masquerading as magic?

Traab

2021-10-09, 01:08 PM

...?

Cannot make sense of your syntax here.

As for the spoilered part...so this setting is like Shannara? Future tech masquerading as magic?

"any idea IF"

Misery Esquire

2021-10-09, 01:49 PM

As for the spoilered part...so this setting is like Shannara? Future tech masquerading as magic?

No, magic is real in WoT. It's just that our modern world is in their past behind an apocalypse or six.

And in their future, vieled by an apocalypse or two - one of which will either prevent, or cause everyone to forget, the use of magic.

Until another event brings the magic back...

Around and around. Like a wheel driven by an unending serpent consuming itself. Odd image, that. Wonder where I got it. :smallwink:

Psyren

2021-10-09, 02:23 PM

Do we? The first chapter (technically the prologue) sets the first half of what we know and t209. It is a multiple age system with reincarnation and different type of epochs, and the current epoch is a Post Apocalyptic setting and the messiah type figure is going to make it actually worse. All set up in the prologue.

Once that is brought up the second half of what t209 mentioned (lore from the books) is a natural speculation that many (but not all) people will make.

Regardless since we only have 8 hours to cover multiple books I bet it is going to remain just an easter egg and not get limited plot time.

Perhaps "need" was a bit strong, but his stories about Mosk/Merk and Lenn flying to the moon etc. are some of the biggest indicators we get early on that this might be a far-future setting, as opposed to alternate past like most other fantasy.

(And before you say so, yes, I know that the wheel cosmology means that far future and distant past are the same thing :smallbiggrin:)

As for the spoilered part...so this setting is like Shannara? Future tech masquerading as magic?

The magic is definitely real, though Clarke's Law applies too. One of the prevailing theories is that towards the end of our own Age, mankind will rediscover this magic, i.e. the True Source, which kickstarts the next Age. This implies that some point after the events of the main story we'll all probably forget it exists again.

There are various youtube essays that discuss the cyclical nature of the setting's timeline. Here's one of my favorites (which omits any story spoilers as well):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH4EPs_mUZo

Ashen Lilies

2021-10-09, 03:57 PM

Oh, in addition to the clip, we also apparently have a first listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VekVXk1Wo0

It took me a few listens to really vibe with it, but it's grown on me a lot. Sounds like it could be a credits theme? It has that feel. I'm sure that we'll also get some tracks that will sound more 'typical' of what you'd get from a Lord of the Rings or a Game of Thrones (the music from the clip is oh so very much 'fantasytavern.wav'), but I hope we'll also continue to get a more far-reaching and worldly sound.

Also it's sung in the Old Tongue! Sweet!

Ramza00

2021-10-09, 03:59 PM

Perhaps "need" was a bit strong, but his stories about Mosk/Merk and Lenn flying to the moon etc. are some of the biggest indicators we get early on that this might be a far-future setting, as opposed to alternate past like most other fantasy.

(And before you say so, yes, I know that the wheel cosmology means that far future and distant past are the same thing :smallbiggrin:)

Voice of god, outside the series no the past and future are not the same thing just similar. Jordan in the early 2000s was doing interviews and several times he compared same ages, different turnings to tapestries, and how you can have an Impressionism 19th century art effect where how they look at the distant may not be the same as you examining it up close. Same age different turnings may have different details, similar not same.

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27circular%20time%27

Psyren

2021-10-09, 04:17 PM

Voice of god, outside the series no the past and future are not the same thing just similar. Jordan in the early 2000s was doing interviews and several times he compared same ages, different turnings to tapestries, and how you can have an Impressionism 19th century art effect where how they look at the distant may not be the same as you examining it up close. Same age different turnings may have different details, similar not same.

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27circular%20time%27

Boy, can you focus on the letter of what someone is saying :smalltongue:

Yes, I know there are variations between turnings of the Wheel. "Past and future are the same thing" was not meant to be hyperliteral, it was purely an acknowledgement of the Wheel itself.

Ramza00

2021-10-09, 05:43 PM

Boy, can you focus on the letter of what someone is saying :smalltongue:

Yes, I know there are variations between turnings of the Wheel. "Past and future are the same thing" was not meant to be hyperliteral, it was purely an acknowledgement of the Wheel itself.

Well it was kind of plot important for the motivation of several characters, since some of them were animated by metaphysics :smalltongue:

Velaryon

2021-10-13, 01:12 AM

Nothing very remarkable in it, but nothing particularly wrong. They have hoods up because they're coming in out of the rain, Lan scouts the room before Moiraine follows him. I think it's in slow motion, he's walking in at normal speed in universe. Honestly more polished than I expected. Moiraine makes a beeline for the fire because she's wet and cold and annoyed, with a minor power play for the innkeeper, and a bonus 'you don't scare me, kiddo'.

I hope that come across better in context in the actual show, because none of that is what I got from watching the clip myself. Coming in from the rain explains the hoods just fine, though they did lean into the dramatic reveal there. Having her stay outside in the rain until Lan mentions her does seem silly, though. She could easily have stood in the doorway.

But far more awkward for me is Moiraine walking toward the fire, then turning around as if to address the crowd and just... blankly staring at them in silence for a good 10 seconds. I didn't get a sense that she was annoyed, or pick up that power play (unless you mean letting her see the Aes Sedai ring?). It just came off to me as awkward silence not serving any particular purpose.

Psyren

2021-10-13, 01:50 AM

What I saw as she turned from the fire was a smirk. Remember she's been on this hunt for over a decade (or even two in this version?) while poring over every scrap from the prophecies. By the time she got to Emond's Field, she was all but certain her quarry would be there - she had looked into Manetheren's past ("the old blood") and knew it fit, which is why she had the story of Aemon and Eldrene ready to go to quell the riot later.

So she walks into the Winespring, and what does she see but a bunch of youths, at least three of which fit the exact age range she's been looking for - with her gaze lingering right on Rand and Perrin. As she surveys the room, she permits herself a moment of smugness that over a decade of planning and searching might be about to come to fruition in one night - and even more amusing, every yokel in the room is too fixated on her outward appearance and demeanor to even guess at what she might be thinking.

All of that feels very Moiraine to me.

snowblizz

2021-10-13, 05:04 AM

I've always been sort of unsure how to visualize the ageless look, anyway. It's described as looking more distinctive than just 'youthful', and I suspect if they'd tried to implement it they'd have lots of people complaining that they imagined it differently, or that it has an uncanny valley CGI sort of look, and so on.

Assume it's a bit like plastic surgery and botox.

The Aes Sedai look like Cher. It doesn't look bad, you can't really tell easily how old she is, and the more you dwell on it you think: waaaait, wait wait, she can't be the age I kinda assumed at first glance.

TheStranger

2021-10-13, 08:17 AM

Assume it's a bit like plastic surgery and botox.

The Aes Sedai look like Cher. It doesn't look bad, you can't really tell easily how old she is, and the more you dwell on it you think: waaaait, wait wait, she can't be the age I kinda assumed at first glance.

That… kind of changed my whole mental image of Aes Sedai. And not in a bad way.

Also, that would have been a brilliantly subversive way to get the ageless look in the show. Just cast a bunch of actresses who have had too much work done.

Ashen Lilies

2021-10-13, 08:53 AM

I hope that come across better in context in the actual show, because none of that is what I got from watching the clip myself. Coming in from the rain explains the hoods just fine, though they did lean into the dramatic reveal there. Having her stay outside in the rain until Lan mentions her does seem silly, though. She could easily have stood in the doorway.

But far more awkward for me is Moiraine walking toward the fire, then turning around as if to address the crowd and just... blankly staring at them in silence for a good 10 seconds. I didn't get a sense that she was annoyed, or pick up that power play (unless you mean letting her see the Aes Sedai ring?). It just came off to me as awkward silence not serving any particular purpose.

The metadata and some other stuff apparently indicates that the clip was edited, likely for time and dramatic punch, so you'll probably get your wish that the clip won't appear exactly as seen in the show.

She's not blankly staring at the crowd though - she's specifically picking out the E5 and taking note of all of them. I actually really like that she manages to find and focus on all of them - Nynaeve and Egwene, because she can detect that they're sparkers, and then the three boys of the particular age that she's searching for. I'm also reading into the shot of Marin and Egwene afterwards that Marin noticed that Moiraine's gaze has lingered on Egwene, and she looks worried and concerned. Marin might have an idea of why an Aes Sedai would have an interest in a young woman of Egwene's age in particular.

The moment with the ring I actually saw as Moiraine being a little circumspect. She's not announcing herself as Aes Sedai immediately or shoving her ring in peoples faces. She comes in, brushes past Nynaeve with a little dismissive glance (boy that's gotta sting), and does a little show with fiddling with her hair to flash her ring at the innkeeper without being totally blatant about it. And then Marin announces her to the whole room. D'oh!

Remember she's been on this hunt for over a decade (or even two in this version?)

Almost two full decades in the books (the boys are 19-20 in EotW, and Moiraine is raised to the shawl and begins her hunt within months to less than a year after they're born, starting in the Borderlands), around 25 years in the series assuming no major alterations to the events of New Spring.