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View Full Version : 3rd Ed An Evil Paladin: Exercise in Oxymorons



Bad Wolf
2021-09-11, 01:48 AM
Disclaimer: I'm not the best at optimization, so there's always the chance I was horribly wrong.

So, as most people know, the Hellbred race from Fiendish Codex II has this nifty little racial trait:


Evil Exception (Ex): Regardless of alignment or class restrictions, a hellbred can cast spells with the evil descriptor and never gains negative levels while wielding evil magic items, such as unholy weapons or demon armor. This ability does not shield a hellbred from losing access to class features if he violates a class's code of conduct.

Which opens up a lot of options in the roleplaying department. And as they have Paladin as a favored class, this makes things fun to plan out. So what can we do with this?

Corrupt Spells: So, corrupt spells are available to any caster who prepares spells, arcane or divine. While paladins don't have a code of conduct that prevent them from casting opposite-aligned spells, they don't have evil spells on their list in the first place so it's moot. Theoretically there's nothing stopping a Paladin from preparing a corrupt spell, such an act would probably make them fall pretty quickly. However with a Hellbred, it seems like you can cast corrupt spells all day along as long as you act LG.

Unfortunately, most corrupt spells have really evil spell components, like human hearts or brains or souls. So even if the act of casting the spell itself is fine, merely possessing those components could be grounds for falling. Also your DM might hit you over the head with the Book of Exalted Deeds if continually cast Mordenkainen's Boot of Puppy-Kicking.

Evil Magic Items: Grab an unholy longsword, get some demon armor, and go to town slaying evil (with evil)! Caveat: Probably better to find evil weapons rather than create them, as giving money to your foes so they can make items for you is probably a no-no when it comes to conduct. But the BoED has an astral deva that sells demon parts to "dubious" buyers to finance charity, so this might be acceptable.

Exalted Feats: Now, it wouldn't be fun to just slap a coat of Evil paint without also getting some Good in it. The BoED states that only good characters who have "the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats". Depending on your view, a Hellbred paladin wielding a soul-drinking sword and wearing demonic armor might fail that, no matter their LG alignment. But how fun would that be? The various Vow feats aren't that great, but they make an amusing addition to our little Helladin. There's also the Fist of Raziel - anyone feel like Smiting Evil with an unholy weapon that also acts as holy at the same time?

Anyone else got any ideas on making our paladin more evil/good aligned?

hamishspence
2021-09-11, 01:57 AM
While paladins don't have a code of conduct that prevent them from casting opposite-aligned spells, they don't have evil spells on their list in the first place so it's moot. Theoretically there's nothing stopping a Paladin from preparing a corrupt spell, such an act would probably make them fall pretty quickly. However with a Hellbred, it seems like you can cast corrupt spells all day along as long as you act LG?

Part of the code of conduct includes not committing evil acts.



Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.


And according to BOVD, casting a spell with the evil descriptor is an evil act.

and since Evil Exception does not stop you from losing powers for violating a code of conduct:


This ability does not shield a hellbred from losing access to class features if he violates a class's code of conduct.

it would appear that, one cast of a Corrupt spell loses the hellbred paladin their powers.

Bad Wolf
2021-09-11, 02:33 AM
Part of the code of conduct includes not committing evil acts.





And according to BOVD, casting a spell with the evil descriptor is an evil act.

and since Evil Exception does not stop you from losing powers for violating a code of conduct:



it would appear that, one cast of a Corrupt spell loses the hellbred paladin their powers.

Well, that's disappointing. Oops.

hamishspence
2021-09-11, 03:05 AM
Good Hellbred clerics with Evil spells work better than hellbred paladins with Evil spells - the Evil Exception ability allows them to ignore the standard "a cleric cannot cast spells with opposed alignment to theirs" rules just fine, and clerical codes of conduct are much less restrictive.

Crake
2021-09-11, 03:44 AM
Good Hellbred clerics with Evil spells work better than hellbred paladins with Evil spells - the Evil Exception ability allows them to ignore the standard "a cleric cannot cast spells with opposed alignment to theirs" rules just fine, and clerical codes of conduct are much less restrictive.

Or you could just go greyguard, or pick up heretic of the faith as a feat.

hamishspence
2021-09-11, 08:21 AM
Or you could just go greyguard, or pick up heretic of the faith as a feat.

You need 10 levels in Grey Guard to be "immune to losing your powers for evil acts" - and even then, you need to be able to tell your DM, truthfully, that those evil acts are "in a just cause".

Heretic of the Faith only affects a deity's code of conduct, not a class's code of conduct. A paladin Heretic who commits an evil act, loses their powers, just as a regular one would.

The main benefit for it, for paladins, is if the DM is ruling that the paladin's deity would strongly oppose a particular, nonevil, act that does not actually break the code.

Particle_Man
2021-09-11, 12:08 PM
Another option is the Malconvoker, a prestige class that can use evil conjugation spells without becoming evil.

hamishspence
2021-09-11, 12:33 PM
Another option is the Malconvoker, a prestige class that can use evil conjugation spells without becoming evil.

But not necessarily without breaking the paladin's code in the process.



"For the purpose only of casting conjuration spells, you can ignore any restrictions that forbid you from casting spells of certain alignments. In addition, regular use of conjuration spells with the evil descriptor does not threaten to change your alignment".


The example given was of a good cleric (who is incapable of casting [Evil] spells) gaining the ability to summon fiends, but not to cast death knell spells.


Whereas a paladin/wizard can cast an evil Wizard spell - but they lose their paladin powers if they do.

So, as written, a paladin/wizard malconvoker, or a paladin/cleric malconvoker, wouldn't actually be protected from losing paladin powers.

Nihilarian
2021-09-26, 10:06 AM
As far as I know a human heart does not have a gp value so that much can be gotten around with eschew materials

CopperElfCleric
2021-09-26, 10:25 AM
I would assume that would be the Black Guard PrC.

KillianHawkeye
2021-09-26, 12:43 PM
Additionally, an unholy sword is not particularly useful against evil creatures, since it only does extra damage against good.

Thurbane
2021-09-26, 06:38 PM
As far as I know a human heart does not have a gp value so that much can be gotten around with eschew materials

Unfortunately, it does have a listed amount (BoVD p.45 - Humanoid Heart, 1sp).

loky1109
2021-09-26, 06:45 PM
Unfortunately, it does have a listed amount (BoVD p.45 - Humanoid Heart, 1sp).
This is even better.


You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component.

Thurbane
2021-09-26, 08:29 PM
Ah yes, I was getting the limit of what a spell competent pouch what Eschew Material allows mixed up.

Crake
2021-09-26, 08:53 PM
Ah yes, I was getting the limit of what a spell competent pouch what Eschew Material allows mixed up.

I think that a human heart would already be disqualified under the "wouldn't fit in a pouch" part anyway, but yeah, eschew materials has a slightly better value to it.