Stupid Simple Class Changes?

[Garresh]

Anyone ever read a class or thought about a character concept and realized that a stupid simple change could massively improve it?

I was looking over the way of the drunken master and I realized why the **** aren't they proficient with inprovised weapons? Even if they were they could only use improvised weapons that are similar to monk weapons as monk weapons. And it's not like they'd be getting any damage bonus out of it since monk damage dice outpace anything an improvised weapon could pull.

Am I crazy or should they just get it as a ribbon for roleplaying reasons?

Any other stupid ideas that classes should just get by default?

[Sorinth]

I'll go with Monks not starting with proficiency in Dex & Wis saves. I know they wanted everyone to have one good and one bad save, but it's still nonsensical. The fact that Monks could use the minor power boost, and Diamond Soul will eventually give it to them anyways just makes it even dumber that they didn't just do it.

[Valorant]

For me it was multiclassing rule for Paladin that you need 13 in STR and CHA, but if I made Dex Paladin which perfectly viable Paladin build and even better in many cases than STR - suddenly I can't multiclass to Sorcerer. Why? Sorcerer does not need 13 STR to anything story wise or mechanical and my Paladin had 8 STR since he was born and it didn't prevent him from becoming Paladin and being Paladin so why suddenly after years he need STR for something?

So one change to 13 STR or DEX and 13 CHA suddenly made a lot of sense and not punishing player for wanting to play agile duelist Paladin instead of slow brute Paladin.

[Ashe]

Warlocks having their subclass expanded spell list just be known spells like every other class that does the same thing. Suddenly they actually have some versatility in spell choice and all it took was not being restrictive for no reason.

[Joe the Rat]

On the first two:

- While Jackie Chan is a master Drunken Boxer, not all Drunken Boxers are Jackie Chan. They opted to hew closer to the style than the myth in the mechanics.

- Strength saves are to resist being tripped or pushed around by spell and environmental effects, something monks are supposed to excel at. The fact that designers felt damage takes priority (Thunderwave) and adventure writers use Strength(Athletics) checks instead of Strength saves moots the point. But at least it's still viable against wolves and battlemasters. :smallconfused:

Personally, I thought they should have distributed the early levels of Warlock invocations better. It's every other level, except the gap from 2 to 5. While I am always in favor of adding an extra, just splitting the first two invocations to levels 2 and 3 would give it a smoother progression. Yes, many folks will swap out one of their invocs at 3 when they get their pact options, but why not just give them the second invocation at that level and save the fuss?

[Dienekes]

On the first two:

- While Jackie Chan is a master Drunken Boxer, not all Drunken Boxers are Jackie Chan. They opted to hew closer to the style than the myth in the mechanics.


I find this hard to believe. Not that real Drunken Boxers don’t normally use improvised weapons as part of their discipline. That seems perfectly reasonable.

But that WotC did any research about real world martial arts and let that information effect their game design? No. That’s frankly an unrealistic fantasy.

[PhantomSoul]

I find this hard to believe. Not that real Drunken Boxers don’t normally use improvised weapons as part of their discipline. That seems perfectly reasonable.

But that WotC did any research about real world martial arts and let that information effect their game design? No. That’s frankly an unrealistic fantasy.

...probably more fantastical than the actual game! :P

[Kuulvheysoon]

I find this hard to believe. Not that real Drunken Boxers don’t normally use improvised weapons as part of their discipline. That seems perfectly reasonable.

But that WotC did any research about real world martial arts and let that information effect their game design? No. That’s frankly an unrealistic fantasy.

Research, probably not, but there could absolutely be a martial artist enthusiast among them. Heck, even if they were just a fan of old kung fu movies it might qualify them.

[Glorthindel]

For me it was multiclassing rule for Paladin that you need 13 in STR and CHA, but if I made Dex Paladin which perfectly viable Paladin build and even better in many cases than STR - suddenly I can't multiclass to Sorcerer. Why? Sorcerer does not need 13 STR to anything story wise or mechanical and my Paladin had 8 STR since he was born and it didn't prevent him from becoming Paladin and being Paladin so why suddenly after years he need STR for something?

So one change to 13 STR or DEX and 13 CHA suddenly made a lot of sense and not punishing player for wanting to play agile duelist Paladin instead of slow brute Paladin.

I would probably go the other way and change the Fighter Prerequisites from '13 Str or 13 Dex' to just 13 Str. Dex has enough nice things, I have absolutely no problem with a Strength tax on multiclassing with physical classes.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I would probably go the other way and change the Fighter Prerequisites from '13 Str or 13 Dex' to just 13 Str. Dex has enough nice things, I have absolutely no problem with a Strength tax on multiclassing with physical classes.

See, on the one hand I agree with you, but on the other hand, this hits other physical classes too. I mean, Fighter 5/Rogue X is a great build, but making them spend enough points to have 13 Strength is harsh.

What I might like to see is raising the minimum stat requirements for multiclassing if you have spell slots, like requiring maybe a 15 instead of 13. It'd certainly cut down on multiclassed paladins, if nothing else.

[Dork_Forge]

I agree that Paladins should be Str/Dex and Cha, it makes no sense to lock them out of Dex in a multiclass when you can build a Dexadin just fine. This is actually one of my house rules.

Hard disagree on the Monk thing though, Str saves are useful in early levels and 100% appropriate to a trained martial artist. Monks don't need prof in Wis saves early on, no one does really, but their Wis mod will cover them. There's a trend on this board that you need prof+mod to have a save worth a damn and that's just not true.

Some other changes I make that are pretty simple and straight forward:

Sorcerers: Extra spell at 1st and 5th level, Sorcerous Recovery feature (half level rounded up in Sorc points on a Sr once per day)

Natural Weapons in TWF: Key example of this is the Minotaur Barbarian/Rogue that uses TWF, I let him use his horns as part of the attack sequence that qualifies for TWF, it's part of his body fighting with it should be natural and whilst it has high impact on player enjoyment it has no real impact on balance.

Remove Sunlight Sensitivity from Kobolds

Add it to Deep Gnomes

Add slightly more Ki to Monks, playing with either +2 or Wis mod

[Sorinth]

- Strength saves are to resist being tripped or pushed around by spell and environmental effects, something monks are supposed to excel at. The fact that designers felt damage takes priority (Thunderwave) and adventure writers use Strength(Athletics) checks instead of Strength saves moots the point. But at least it's still viable against wolves and battlemasters. :smallconfused:

Although I agree to a certain extent, monks should also excel at tripping and pushing people around yet apart from some specific subclasses they don't. And yeah it's weird how there is this mix of saves and checks that are just arbitrary for what is essentially the same thing.

The ironic part is that there are 3 classes with two primary attributes, Monks, Paladins, Rangers. Monk and Ranger are considered to be on the weaker side while Paladin is one of the strongest classes and would lose out and not get any of the big three (Offset by Aura anyways). So all in all in would be more on brand and bring a little more class balance.

[JackPhoenix]

For me it was multiclassing rule for Paladin that you need 13 in STR and CHA, but if I made Dex Paladin which perfectly viable Paladin build and even better in many cases than STR - suddenly I can't multiclass to Sorcerer. Why? Sorcerer does not need 13 STR to anything story wise or mechanical and my Paladin had 8 STR since he was born and it didn't prevent him from becoming Paladin and being Paladin so why suddenly after years he need STR for something?

So one change to 13 STR or DEX and 13 CHA suddenly made a lot of sense and not punishing player for wanting to play agile duelist Paladin instead of slow brute Paladin.

Just because it's viable doesn't mean you aren't playing the paladin wrong. They are the knights in shining armor, not swashbucklers. Just like the rogues and rangers aren't brutes, and every druid ever refuses to put on metal armor.

Seriously, intended aesthetics influences mechanics a lot.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Just because it's viable doesn't mean you aren't playing the paladin wrong. They are the knights in shining armor, not swashbucklers. Just like the rogues and rangers aren't brutes, and every druid ever refuses to put on metal armor.

Seriously, intended aesthetics influences mechanics a lot.

The blue is actually pretty close to the actual design. Intended aesthetics was supposed to control mechanics, not just influence it. But legacy effects and other cross-cutting concerns blurs that design.

Most of what we think of as "balance-driven" is actually "aesthetics-driven".

[Valorant]

Just because it's viable doesn't mean you aren't playing the paladin wrong. They are the knights in shining armor, not swashbucklers. Just like the rogues and rangers aren't brutes, and every druid ever refuses to put on metal armor.

Seriously, intended aesthetics influences mechanics a lot.

Absolutely doesn't make sense. Paladins get proficiencies in light, medium and heavy armor, not only heavy. They are proficient in all weapons, not only heavy ones. So light armored Paladin with rapier is perfectly with what class offers. Same is with their mechanics. Nothing force STR on Paladin like on Barbarian Rage and reckless attack or Rogue with sneak attack only working with finesse weapons or range weapons which are Dex.

So there is no reason for Dex Paladin not being as viable roleplay choice as Str, especially since it's 5e that broke Paladin storeotype with oaths, vengeance, conquest. And some paladin oaths like watchers or vengeance fit perfectly into light armored warriors\spies\bounty hunters.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Honestly yah. Simple changes for sure. I think these are the following pet peeves I try and fix in my game that I use.

Monks
- Monks are proficient in improvised weapons
- So long as Monks have a Ki Point in their Ki Pool they may use their wisdom modifier in place of their strength modifier for strength checks and strength saves

Rangers
- I use Gritty Realism
- Rangers may use a long rest to familiarize themselves with their environment and prey and switch terrain or favored enemy each long rest so long as they study their targets
- Rangers may freely cast Hunter's Mark equal to their proficiency bonus before consuming a spell slot

Warlocks
- Warlocks start with the Eldritch blast cantrip
- All Warlock invocations that state "May cast this spell using a Warlock spell slot" instead state "May cast this spell once per long rest without using a warlock spell slot. It's part of their spells known."
- At levels 7, 12, 17, the Warlock gain a free spell invocation referencing the above rule.

Sorcerers
- Sorcerers that don't already have an expanded spell list get one according to their subclass
- Sorcerers gain every 4th level a new spell known from the wizard spell list that's added to their list of prepared spells.

[Man_Over_Game]

Sorcerers
- Sorcerers that don't already have an expanded spell list get one according to their subclass

I agree with this one.

I also think it's incredibly stupid that Sneak Attack dice don't scale with spells somehow. Unless you're going some kind of weird Bladesinging or other melee rogue build, there is virtually no reason to take Rogue past level 1, as pretty much any more than that is probably just worth putting back into your original caster class.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Rangers
- I use Gritty Realism
- Rangers may use a long rest to familiarize themselves with their environment and prey and switch terrain or favored enemy each long rest so long as they study their targets
- Rangers may freely cast Hunter's Mark equal to their proficiency bonus before consuming a spell slot

Sorcerers
- Sorcerers that don't already have an expanded spell list get one according to their subclass
- Sorcerers gain every 4th level a new spell known from the wizard spell list that's added to their list of prepared spells.

I hope that you give Hunter and Beastmaster Rangers bonus spell lists as well (I do, because really).

[Maan]

Although I agree to a certain extent, monks should also excel at tripping and pushing people around yet apart from some specific subclasses they don't. And yeah it's weird how there is this mix of saves and checks that are just arbitrary for what is essentially the same thing.
They could have just added a low-level Class Feature that allows Monks to substitute Dex for Str, for example; like for using Athletics or even for Str Saves.

[Sorinth]

They could have just added a low-level Class Feature that allows Monks to substitute Dex for Str, for example; like for using Athletics or even for Str Saves.

Agreed that would have been the best, and they basically did that with Astral Self Monk.

[stoutstien]

I categorize any of these changes that you can make that make a class feel better without mechanically making the many stronger "quality of play enhancements"

It's one of the reasons I really wish the DMG went into more detail on the actual math of the game so DMs could look at it and see little things that could be added or changed with little to no impact.

[Dienekes]

Absolutely doesn't make sense. Paladins get proficiencies in light, medium and heavy armor, not only heavy. They are proficient in all weapons, not only heavy ones. So light armored Paladin with rapier is perfectly with what class offers. Same is with their mechanics. Nothing force STR on Paladin like on Barbarian Rage and reckless attack or Rogue with sneak attack only working with finesse weapons or range weapons which are Dex.

So there is no reason for Dex Paladin not being as viable roleplay choice as Str, especially since it's 5e that broke Paladin storeotype with oaths, vengeance, conquest. And some paladin oaths like watchers or vengeance fit perfectly into light armored warriors\spies\bounty hunters.

You’re using your character builder logic. Which is great. Having a few of those types on staff to see the possibility of mechanics is useful.

But D&D isn’t designed that way. Or rarely is. It’s designed with an elaborate mesh of mechanics that are supposed to be played a certain way. With maybe a half a thought spared to how this elaborate mesh can be optimally played.

Such as, armor, unlike pretty much everything else in the game except martial weapons, has prerequisites. Why? Because of a somewhat flawed but understandable misunderstanding of how armor functions way back in the old days of D&D. And now that is brought to 5e. So you can’t get heavy armor training unless you get light and medium first. But Paladins are supposed to be the heavy armored knights in shining armor, so obviously they’ll go strength and heavy armor.

What’s that? Heavy armor isn’t really much better than dex builds defensively and have a lot of other upsides? What do you mean people would prefer to be Dex Paladins. They are knights! They have heavy armor!

So on and so forth.

[Nidgit]

- All Warlock invocations that state "May cast this spell using a Warlock spell slot" instead state "May cast this spell once per long rest without using a warlock spell slot. It's part of their spells known."
So much this! These Invocations are basically never taken as-is because there's already so much competition for their limited spell slots.

It's not a simple change, but I'd also add an additional subclass ability at Level 18 for all Warlocks too.

[Mjolnirbear]

Mine:

Sorcerers:
* subclass spells for all
* my version of sorcerous recovery is to halve the number of sorcery points but they refresh on a short rest. It's effectively +50% sorcery points
* sorcerer's body counts in all ways as an arcane focus

Artificers:
* free alchemist elixirs = proficiency bonus
* additional infusions
* get mending free, because this is the build-it class

Warlocks:
* subclass spells are spells known
* digging the invocations don't use spell slot thing, but not one of my rules yet
*hexblades lose Hex warrior, which is instead gained by blade locks at 3rd

Fighters:
* second wind at 3rd lvl gets additional dice to match proficiency bonus which continues increasing with fighter levels

Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians, Monks, Paladins, Rangers ALL get maneuvers. Battle master fighter is scrapped.

Bonus round: Races
If you get one or more weapon proficiencies, you instead get one maneuver and one die to fuel it.

If you get one or more armour proficiencies, you instead get +1 AC when wearing it.

Because a dwarf fighter should still get fun things for picking dwarf.

Dragonborn breath weapon useable as an attack during attack action or as bonus action.

[Xihirli]

I hope that you give Hunter and Beastmaster Rangers bonus spell lists as well (I do, because really).

Give. Beastmasters. Find. Familiar.
Give. Beastmasters. Find. Steed.

[Dienekes]

Mine:

Bonus round: Races
If you get one or more weapon proficiencies, you instead get one maneuver and one die to fuel it.

If you get one or more armour proficiencies, you instead get +1 AC when wearing it.

Because a dwarf fighter should still get fun things for picking dwarf.

Dragonborn breath weapon useable as an attack during attack action or as bonus action.

I have something similar for my races.

Though I have every race with armor proficiency changed to Armor Proficiency +1. If the class starts with nothing it gets Light Armor. If it starts with Light it gets Medium. But if the class starts with Heavy, then they get the Defense Fighting Style for free.

For weapons I just did a simple: if your race and class give you the same weapon proficiency you get +2 damage when using that weapon.

It’s easy to use and remember. It’s a noticeable bonus, but not an overpowered one, in my experience. It does a lot over the course of a campaign, but trivial over the course of an encounter. At least until you get to high level Fighters action surging. But at that point, meh. Let them have nice things.

[Dork_Forge]

Give. Beastmasters. Find. Familiar.
Give. Beastmasters. Find. Steed.

I'd rather they not have those spells to be honest, it erodes the identity of those spells into just beasts. I also don't think always having a mount necessarily fits the aesthetic of being a beastmaster ranger.

Why do you even feel that they should have more animals?

[Pex]

Barbarian unarmored AC is ST/DX + CO.

[Abracadangit]

Mine:

Sorcerers:
* subclass spells for all
* my version of sorcerous recovery is to halve the number of sorcery points but they refresh on a short rest. It's effectively +50% sorcery points
* sorcerer's body counts in all ways as an arcane focus

Artificers:
* free alchemist elixirs = proficiency bonus
* additional infusions
* get mending free, because this is the build-it class

Warlocks:
* subclass spells are spells known
* digging the invocations don't use spell slot thing, but not one of my rules yet
*hexblades lose Hex warrior, which is instead gained by blade locks at 3rd

Fighters:
* second wind at 3rd lvl gets additional dice to match proficiency bonus which continues increasing with fighter levels

Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians, Monks, Paladins, Rangers ALL get maneuvers. Battle master fighter is scrapped.

Hey, whaddaya know! I have some of these too, namely the sorc get-some-points-back-on-short-rest recharge and subclass spells for all, and the everybody-gets-maneuvers. I let rogues, barbs, monks, paladins, and rangers each get access to a thematically sensible subset of all the maneuvers, while fighters get access to the whole list. I like to think of fighters as the "wizards" of combat; they learn new fighting styles and combat techniques on the fly, since fighting is what they live for.

Some other minor tweaks:

Barbarians:
-- A handful of special maneuvers that only work while raging

Monks:
-- Can spend 1 ki point to get adv on Athletics or Acrobatics checks
-- If they have 0 ki remaining, at the start of their next turn, they recharge 1 ki point (keeps stronger monk moves off the menu but they'll always have one handy for a Flurry or a Patient Defense)

Warlocks:
-- Can use Int instead of Cha as their casting stat

Wizards:
-- Get two bonus languages and two extra knowledge skills at the start, which they have expertise in -- yup, stole this from knowledge clerics, but why the hell don't wizards get bonus languages and knowledges when they are the archetypal embodiment of hoarding knowledge

My controversial take: everyone in my games gets to pick one skill or tool proficiency that works like Reliable Talent. 9s or lower become 10s. That way the loremaster will never bungle History, the monk will never faceplant on Acrobatics, the tracker will never totally suck at Survival, etc. I always found it weird that bards and rogues get Expertise, AND rogues get Reliable Talent, under the logic "We'll they're the skill classes," as though other characters interface with skills less, or something.

[Sorinth]

My controversial take: everyone in my games gets to pick one skill or tool proficiency that works like Reliable Talent. 9s or lower become 10s. That way the loremaster will never bungle History, the monk will never faceplant on Acrobatics, the tracker will never totally suck at Survival, etc. I always found it weird that bards and rogues get Expertise, AND rogues get Reliable Talent, under the logic "We'll they're the skill classes," as though other characters interface with skills less, or something.

I like the idea behind it but there will be problems, not least of which is everyone should probably just take Stealth, it negates the penalties for wearing heavy armor and pretty much crushes passive perception of most situations.

[Abracadangit]

I like the idea behind it but there will be problems, not least of which is everyone should probably just take Stealth, it negates the penalties for wearing heavy armor and pretty much crushes passive perception of most situations.

Fair point, but I don't DM for a very min-maxy group of people. Like in our current game, the cleric RTed Religion, the barb RTed Athletics, the sorcerer RTed Survival, and so on. I'll concede that different groups might abuse it to high hell, though.

[heavyfuel]

Barbarians should benefit from rage from any armor they are proficient in.

If a wizard can dip cleric to wear heavy armor with no issue, the same should be true for barbs.

[Dienekes]

Fair point, but I don't DM for a very min-maxy group of people. Like in our current game, the cleric RTed Religion, the barb RTed Athletics, the sorcerer RTed Survival, and so on. I'll concede that different groups might abuse it to high hell, though.

Perhaps if each class gave a select list of skills that can be RTed to push the players toward the flavorful rather than optimized options?

[Man_Over_Game]

I'd rather they not have those spells to be honest, it erodes the identity of those spells into just beasts. I also don't think always having a mount necessarily fits the aesthetic of being a beastmaster ranger.

Why do you even feel that they should have more animals?

It has more to do with the utility and versatility of it.

Find Steed and Find Familiar both introduce mechanics to other classes that the Ranger is supposed to be a specialist in: Scouting and long-distance travel. They also almost do it better than the Ranger does.

As-is, a Ranger only gets a single animal and doesn't really get any kind of long-term benefit spell from its spell list (the closest being like Goodberry and Alarm). As a wilderness-oriented Ranger, that seems kinda silly that the folks who live in cities are the ones conjuring companion animals and always having a lookout.

Whether or not the Ranger identity works better with that spell isn't my issue with it, it's the fact that the Ranger would use them so much better than anyone else can.

Get in close with the familiar, scout out a whole group of enemies, lay an Alarm trap on your way back. Use Find Steed and summon yourself a mountain goat that's able to traverse these peaks as you try to catch up with your target.

On the Wizard and the Paladin, they just feel like novelties given to them out of tradition.

[Abracadangit]

Perhaps if each class gave a select list of skills that can be RTed to push the players toward the flavorful rather than optimized options?

Sure! If I was running a game for a group of people I didn't know, we could have people choose one from a list, like:

Artificers - Arcana, Investigation, any tool proficiency
Barbarians - Athletics, Intimidation, Survival
Bards - Anything
Clerics - Insight, Medicine, Religion
Druids - Animal Handling, Nature, Survival
Fighters - Athletics, Acrobatics, Intimidation
Monks - Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception
Paladins - Athletics, Religion, Persuasion
Rangers - Perception, Stealth, Survival
Rogues - Anything
Sorcerers - Arcana, Deception, Persuasion
Warlocks - Arcana, Deception, Religion
Wizards - Arcana, History, Nature

Or whatever you like. My general idea is to cut down on the Mad Libs-iness of D&D variance, a little; granted, things aren't always going to go your way all the time, but I've seen new players roll a char all like "Yeah, I can't wait to be a smooth talker," and then roll 1s-5s on every Charisma check and pull their hair out. This way, a character has a little slice of safety.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Find Steed and Find Familiar both introduce mechanics to other classes that the Ranger is supposed to be a specialist in: Scouting and long-distance travel. They also almost do it better than the Ranger does.

...

On the Wizard and the Paladin, they just feel like novelties given to them out of tradition.

As long as the fantasy of the heavy armor paladin exists, find steed will be inextricably linked to the Paladin class.

As for familiars... it's a fantasy staple as well. I don't foresee that changing anytime soon, nor do I see the need to change it. Not all tropes are bad, after all. Though I would absolutely be down with giving rangers access to find steed.

[Kane0]

My top 10 simple things:

- The ability to trade short rest recovery of a resource for double or triple that resource and only recovering on a long rest. Arguably as good as DMG resting variants.
- Advantage/Disadvantage cancelling on a 1:1 ratio rather than any of either completely negating all of the other. Better optional rule than DMG Flanking.
- Most if not all fighting styles available to all classes that get it (barring the ones that grant cantrips). I get that fighters shouldn't be getting blessed warrior but why can't I take TWF as a paladin?
- Dragonborn get Darkvision
- If Artificers can infuse and create magic items, why can't they suppress or drain them?
- Bard Countercharm should have been a reaction ability
- Fighter Indomitable should have given some sort of bonus to the reroll, like advantage or converting it to a CON save
- Paladins choosing either WIS or CHA for their spells and features
- Warlocks choosing either INT or CHA for their spells and features
- Berserker Barbarian exhaustion. Ugh.

Rangers and Sorcerers deserve special mention since there are certainly changes you can make to them but I wouldn't stop at *simple*

I'll skip feats and spells.

[Townopolis]

Oh man, I just go straight to making Indomitable an auto-save, but you have to choose to use it before and instead of rolling.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Oh man, I just go straight to making Indomitable an auto-save, but you have to choose to use it before and instead of rolling.

I straight up make it a Legendary Resistance, lol. Fighters need all of the help that they can get at higher levels, and it gives them a little niche that they didn't have before.

[Amechra]

My personal quick changes (skipping over the ones that people have already brought up, like Sorcerers getting to use their body as an arcane focus):

Barbarians

Rage gives +1d4/+1d6/+1d8 damage instead of +2/+3/+4 damage.
While raging, you deal your Rage Die in bludgeoning damage to any creature you successfully Grapple or Shove.
When you use Reckless Attack, any successful Grapple or Shove you make until the end of your turn deals additional bludgeoning damage equal to your Strength modifier.
Brutal Critical also deals its damage if you make an appropriate attack with advantage and hit with both rolls.
Danger Sense applies to Wisdom and Dexterity saves, not just Dexterity saves. [Not sure about this one.]
Replace the advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws from Rage with Reliable Talent on those rolls. At some point (9th level, maybe?), you get this benefit while you aren't raging.


Rangers

Extra Attack is tweaked — if a Ranger takes the attack action and makes attacks against two different creatures, they get to make an extra attack against a third creature.
Find Familiar is a Ranger spell, not a Wizard spell.


Rogues

You can use Sneak Attack with Unarmed Strikes if you can use Dexterity for the attack roll.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Champion subclass should be available to Barbarians.

Champion gets features at 3, 7, 10, 15, and 18, while Barbarian only gets subclass features at 3, 6, 10, and 14, but some of those Barbarian levels get more significant subclass features than what a Fighter would get. Improved Critical at 3rd isn't significant enough, so move the 10th level fighting style to 3rd as well. Then put Remarkable Athlete at 6th, Superior Critical at 10th, and Survivor at 14th.

What this accomplishes:

Barbarians are lacking a fighting style by default, and many would consider taking Fighting Initiate. A second fighting style for a Fighter isn't even all that great.

Remarkable Athlete (which benefits initiative) isn't great for a Fighter, who's typically more reactive and doesn't want to go first. Barbarians are more proactive and will absolutely appreciate the initiative bonus.

Improved and Superior Critical are absurdly good for a Barbarian thanks to Reckless Attack and Brutal Critical. These are lackluster Fighter features, but fantastic Barbarian features, especially if you stack it on a Half-Orc.

Survivor is literally twice as good for a raging Barbarian, thanks to their resistance to most of the damage they'll be taking. It's a perfect capstone feature for the subclass of a crazed warrior who's just too angry to die.

[Pex]

Oh man, I just go straight to making Indomitable an auto-save, but you have to choose to use it before and instead of rolling.


I straight up make it a Legendary Resistance, lol. Fighters need all of the help that they can get at higher levels, and it gives them a little niche that they didn't have before.

Yeah, this. It makes a player feel real special to share a unique ability with the Big Boss monsters.

[Amechra]

Oh, yeah, one thing I forgot:

Swords Bards should be able to swap their Fighting Style for a Battlemaster maneuver, which they can use as an additional Blade Flourish option.

[Dork_Forge]

It has more to do with the utility and versatility of it.

Find Steed and Find Familiar both introduce mechanics to other classes that the Ranger is supposed to be a specialist in: Scouting and long-distance travel. They also almost do it better than the Ranger does.

But the point of the Ranger is that they are good at those things, not that they have creatures that are good at it. And the Ranger is good at it...

The PHB Ranger can move stealthily at a normal pace and is superior at tracking in their environment, the spells they get access to augments their ability to scout and travel well especially since they're heavily incentivised to have good Dex and Wis scores.


As-is, a Ranger only gets a single animal and doesn't really get any kind of long-term benefit spell from its spell list (the closest being like Goodberry and Alarm). As a wilderness-oriented Ranger, that seems kinda silly that the folks who live in cities are the ones conjuring companion animals and always having a lookout.

The Ranger trope in general isn't getting animals, that's a kind of ranger that's represented within the Beastmaster. The base class shouldn't get animal companions, it should get the opportunity to work with animals in the wild... which it does through spells.

There is absolutely nothing that indicates a Wizard and Paladin primarily reside in cities. Their tropes don't even support that, with a Wizard often depicted in a tower in the wilderness and Paladins traveling the land to fight evil.

Paranoid Wizards having creatures that can assist them, watch out for them, and deliver their spells makes sense.

The mounted knight trope the Paladin is based on makes sense with having a supernaturally loyal and capable steed.

A Ranger which is normally depcited as being incredibly self sufficient in the wild and generally working alone doens't make sense to tie multiple animal companions to.


Whether or not the Ranger identity works better with that spell isn't my issue with it, it's the fact that the Ranger would use them so much better than anyone else can.

They literally cannot use those spells better than their original owners.


Get in close with the familiar, scout out a whole group of enemies, lay an Alarm trap on your way back. Use Find Steed and summon yourself a mountain goat that's able to traverse these peaks as you try to catch up with your target.

On the Wizard and the Paladin, they just feel like novelties given to them out of tradition.


What you just described has literally nothing to do with being a Ranger.

Familiar: You can't cast Alarm through a familiar, and even if you could, that's a Wizard spell too. Any character with a familiar can do this, and a Druid can now do this better than a Ranger could ever hope to because Wildshape and a similar spell list on a bigger slot allowance.

Find Steed: This is just riding a goat. There's zero reason this doesn't fit any adventurer traveling across mountainous terrain.

Besides not narratively making sense to tie to the core Ranger (I could see Find Familiar as a BM spell), as a balance point I wouldn't natively give Find Familar and Find Steed to the same class, especially not one that can have a combat competent creature as a subclass.

At that point you're building minionmancy into the backbone of a class that later gets access to minion spells anyway, for no thematic benefit.



Oh, yeah, one thing I forgot:

Swords Bards should be able to swap their Fighting Style for a Battlemaster maneuver, which they can use as an additional Blade Flourish option.

I like the idea of giving Swords Bards Superior Technique (thanks, I'm stealing that) but I think it's a bit much letting them use it as a Flourish but that's just because I think it's crossing into Homogenising the BM's whole thing into a generic good at fighting thing.

IMO the point of Blade Flourishes were to be similar in concept to maneuvers, but different enough to stand on their own, which I think they achieve. That said adding 2-3 more wouldn't hurt, but that'll never happen RAW.

[Amechra]

I was thinking of solely letting them use it as a Blade Flourish. So they have to spend BI dice on them, because having two pools of dice would be kinda annoying to track.

[Kane0]

Taking the Martial Adept feat into account too, perhaps just let Swords and Valor bards use Bardic Inspiration as substitute superiority dice.

[Maan]

Though I have every race with armor proficiency changed to Armor Proficiency +1. If the class starts with nothing it gets Light Armor. If it starts with Light it gets Medium. But if the class starts with Heavy, then they get the Defense Fighting Style for free.

For weapons I just did a simple: if your race and class give you the same weapon proficiency you get +2 damage when using that weapon.

Lots of interesting ideas in the thread, but I really like what you did here.
It's simple and elegant.

[JackPhoenix]

The Ranger trope in general isn't getting animals, that's a kind of ranger that's represented within the Beastmaster. The base class shouldn't get animal companions, it should get the opportunity to work with animals in the wild... which it does through spells.

There is absolutely nothing that indicates a Wizard and Paladin primarily reside in cities. Their tropes don't even support that, with a Wizard often depicted in a tower in the wilderness and Paladins traveling the land to fight evil.

Paranoid Wizards having creatures that can assist them, watch out for them, and deliver their spells makes sense.

The mounted knight trope the Paladin is based on makes sense with having a supernaturally loyal and capable steed.

A Ranger which is normally depcited as being incredibly self sufficient in the wild and generally working alone doens't make sense to tie multiple animal companions to.

In addition, neither familiars or paladin mounts are animals. They are both something else *pretending* to be an animal, which definitely isn't ranger's schtick.

[Kane0]

In addition, neither familiars or paladin mounts are animals. They are both something else *pretending* to be an animal, which definitely isn't ranger's schtick.

I think that is largely a byproduct of being a spell. It would be a little more cumbersome and/or immersion breaking to have them be the same creature you keep summoning and does not change.

[elyktsorb]

Druids - Animal Handling, Nature, Survival


pls never push Nature ever, it's such a bad skill.

[Valorant]

List of my simple changes to classes at my Table:

- Champion merged in baseline fighter. All champ features every fighter gets.
- Circle of fire druid gets fireball
- light domain cleric get firebolt cantrip. His channel divinity gets 1d10 damage per half cleric level.
- War cleric gets extra attack instead of mini smite or potent
- death cleric gets potent cantrip
- Barbarian unarmored defense is 12+ CON modifier to show their inhuman toughness and allow players to play naked tank.
- Ranger baseline is Revised Ranger
- Hexblade SAD cha is being removed and add as invocation for all warlocks. Instead of that hexblades can bound two weapons for themselves instead of one. Instead of creating spectre hexblades get to chose from following fighting styles: twf, dueling, defense
- Wizards loses Arcane recovery. They are OP enough.
- Sorcerer's get spell point mechanic instead of slots as their baseline.
- Bards get Magic Missle and melfs minute meteors to help their offense at tier 1 a little.
- Ranger gets find familiar spell
- Fighter indominable changes to: per short rest you can use it to get advatange on saving throw.
- level 15 Oath of Conquest feature changes to: you ignore enemies Immunity to frighten
- Rune knight Giant Might damage bonus apply to all attacks.
- Artificer doesn't need tool as spell focus, but he can use tools as spell focus if he wants.
- Barbarian bonus damage is changed do 1d4, 1d6, 1d8 to synergize better with brutal criticals.
- purple dragon Knight is removed from game as I don't want to waste time fixing it :D

I have more for feats etc. But those are for classes.

[Kane0]

- purple dragon Knight is removed from game as I don't want to waste time fixing it :D


:smallbiggrin: if you're in the market though here's one I prepared earlier:


Level 3: Tactician
When you take the Attack action, you can forego your attack to allow one ally within 30 feet that can see and hear you to make one weapon attack. If you are able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.

Level 3: Aura of Discipline
You and friendly creatures within 10 feet of you have advantage on Strength checks and saving throws to avoid being forcibly moved or knocked Prone.

Level 7: Great Leadership
You gain proficiency in your choice of Intimidation, Insight or Persuasion. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make using this skill.

Level 10: Inspiring Word
When you use your Second Wind, Action Surge or Indomitable feature you can choose to also grant the same benefits of the feature to one ally within 30 feet that can see and hear you. Once you use this feature you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

Level 15: Rallying Cry
As a bonus action you can rally up to three allied creatures within 60 feet that can see and hear you. These creatures can use their reaction to spend a number of hit die up to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1) and move up to half their speed without provoking opportunity attacks. Once you use this feature you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

Level 18: Lord of War
When you see an ally within 30 feet of you make an attack you can use your reaction to grant advantage on the attack roll.

[Chronic]

Wizard aren't a playable class, sorcerer use intelligence for their spellcasting and get saves and proficiencies accordingly. Every pure martial get battlemaster maneuvers, battlemaster get most of the champion subclass feature. Eldritch knight and arcane trickster get thematic features (improved war magic, AT get subtle spells).
Sorxerers get unique spell lists for subclasses, bard aren't as good at every skill, just excellent at social ones.
Clerics get scaling bonus to healing spells
Hexblade doesn't exist but the proficiencies and the charisma to melee is added to the weapon pact. Other pacts get an additional spell slot at level 7.
Gwm elven accuracy and sharpshooter do not exist. I created a new feat for gish.
Many utilitarian spells such as teleportation spells, scouting spells, and survival spells are either reworked, higher level or do not exist.
Most summoning spells do not include the options for x4 and x8 summons for the flow of the game.
Overpowered spells are brought in line or do not exist. Hypnotic pattern allow for a save every turn for example. While simulacrum and wish do not exist.

Skills are reworked, many of them can be use with a choice between several attribute. Medicine can be used with either int or wis for example.

Initiative bonus is either strength or dex
Heavy armor provide a dmg reduction of two against B/S/P if strenght and proficiency requirements are met.
Pc regain half their hit points during a long rest.
And many more.

[JNAProductions]

A lot of these aren't so simple. Not saying they're bad-just perhaps more complex than the thread would indicate. :P

For me, a big thing I'd want to do that's not so complicated is prune the spells a bit.

Remove stuff like Wish, Simulacrum, Clone... Stuff like that shouldn't be the kinda thing you just decide to learn on level up.

A little more complex, but goes hand-in-hand with removing Wish is to change up the Wizard's capstone. Instead of a few extra 3rd level spells, it'd be Anyspell-lets them cast (as one might guess) any spell, though usually costing extra slots, gold, and time. So casting Storm of Vengeance would take hours, many slots, and much gold. Casting Healing Word might only take an action, a 1st level slot, and 5 or so GP.

[Eric Diaz]

Fighter:

- Indomitable - when you re-roll, you have advantage.

Champion (https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/07/my-champion-5e.html):

- Improved crit also adds your prof bonus to crits.

- Expertise to athletics or acrobatics.

- Remarkable Athlete also applies to damage.

Paladin:

Divine Sense used at will.

Barbarian:

Frenzy: costs one HD instead of exhaustion.

Ranger.

Colossus Slayer: the extra damage is according to the target's HD (for example, giants would take an extra 1d10 or 1d12; 1d20 for gargantuan creatures. Colossus slayer indeed!)

Monk:

- Ki is equal to level + wis.

Sorcerer:

- Uses sorcery points exclusively. (TBH I want all spellcasters to do that...)

[KorvinStarmast]

Warlocks having their subclass expanded spell list just be known spells like every other class that does the same thing. Suddenly they actually have some versatility in spell choice and all it took was not being restrictive for no reason. Yeah, that's the better idea particularly now that the Tasha's sorcerers have busted down the 'known spells' door.

Personally, I thought they should have distributed the early levels of Warlock invocations better. It's every other level, except the gap from 2 to 5. While I am always in favor of adding an extra, just splitting the first two invocations to levels 2 and 3 would give it a smoother progression. Yes, many folks will swap out one of their invocs at 3 when they get their pact options, but why not just give them the second invocation at that level and save the fuss? I think Invocations ought to go 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7, 7, 7,8, 8, 8,9, 9, 9. The class is supposed to be customizable, it's part of the appeal.

I agree that Paladins should be Str/Dex and Cha, it makes no sense to lock them out of Dex in a multiclass when you can build a Dexadin just fine. This is actually one of my house rules. concur.


Remove Sunlight Sensitivity from Kobolds
Add it to Deep Gnomes
Give anyone with darkvision sunlight sensitivity. :smalltongue:

Add slightly more Ki to Monks, playing with either +2 or Wis mod I like your wis mod idea.

Intended aesthetics was supposed to control mechanics, not just influence it. But legacy effects and other cross-cutting concerns blurs that design.

Most of what we think of as "balance-driven" is actually "aesthetics-driven". Yep. The obstacle to understanding this is I suspect grounded in the erroneous fluff crunch / distinction.

I hope that you give Hunter and Beastmaster Rangers bonus spell lists as well (I do, because really). I do, and I even made a list that is posted somewhere here.


Level 3: Tactician
When you take the Attack action, you can forego your attack to allow one ally within 30 feet that can see and hear you to make one weapon attack. If you are able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.

Level 3: Aura of Discipline
You and friendly creatures within 10 feet of you have advantage on Strength checks and saving throws to avoid being forcibly moved or knocked Prone.

Level 7: Great Leadership
You gain proficiency in your choice of Intimidation, Insight or Persuasion. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make using this skill.

Level 10: Inspiring Word
When you use your Second Wind, Action Surge or Indomitable feature you can choose to also grant the same benefits of the feature to one ally within 30 feet that can see and hear you. Once you use this feature you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

Level 15: Rallying Cry
As a bonus action you can rally up to three allied creatures within 60 feet that can see and hear you. These creatures can use their reaction to spend a number of hit die up to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1) and move up to half their speed without provoking opportunity attacks. Once you use this feature you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

Level 18: Lord of War
When you see an ally within 30 feet of you make an attack you can use your reaction to grant advantage on the attack roll.
Love it.

[Valorant]

2 more changes that in theory I made for feats. By in the bigger picture I made them to balance classes little more, especially martials Vs casters:

1. Greatweapon Master has now the following perquisite: Strength 15

2. Sharpshooter has now the following perquisite: Dexterity 15

This is to eliminate no cost pick of those feats for hexblades, hexbards, hexadins, battle Smith's and so on and so forth. With 15 in perquisite it not possible anymore to dumb STR or "just need 14 Dex for half-plate" and still pick best combat feats.

This directly buff in party dynamics Fighters, barbarian, rangers etc Vs CHA\INT gishes. By no means hexblade is weaker than fighter but now at least it balances out in some way. Hexblade can smite, is full caster etc but will not be as good as let's say Fighter in pure martial prowess unless he invests in non-optimal attributes, making him more MAD

[Abracadangit]

pls never push Nature ever, it's such a bad skill.

Ha ha! Why, look at the time - time to turn this thread into yet another Nature-vs.-Survival debate.

Jokes aside, I use Nature differently than most people - I split magic items/spells/effects into camps that tie to specific knowledge skills accordingly. So anything tied to arcane magic is Arcana, anything tied to holy/deity magic is Religion, and anything tied to primal/nature magic is Nature. And then Survival is for the less magical aspects of nature, i.e. plant/animal identification, camping & tracking, etc.

On the note of small changes, I also let anyone making a new char opt to use Wis as their Nature/Religion stat instead of Int, instead of asking for Wisdom (Nature) checks or whatever. I get what WotC was going for with the Int skills, but it's still an odd duck.

[Dork_Forge]

2 more changes that in theory I made for feats. By in the bigger picture I made them to balance classes little more, especially martials Vs casters:

1. Greatweapon Master has now the following perquisite: Strength 15

2. Sharpshooter has now the following perquisite: Dexterity 15

This is to eliminate no cost pick of those feats for hexblades, hexbards, hexadins, battle Smith's and so on and so forth. With 15 in perquisite it not possible anymore to dumb STR or "just need 14 Dex for half-plate" and still pick best combat feats.

This directly buff in party dynamics Fighters, barbarian, rangers etc Vs CHA\INT gishes. By no means hexblade is weaker than fighter but now at least it balances out in some way. Hexblade can smite, is full caster etc but will not be as good as let's say Fighter in pure martial prowess unless he invests in non-optimal attributes, making him more MAD

Did you actually feel this was an issue with the Battle Smith, as it requires 3 levels to get the SADness and even then still needs the Dex?

I can see it being a problem for the Hexblade giving it out at 1st level, just seems like the BS got caught in the crossfire a bit.

[Valorant]

Did you actually feel this was an issue with the Battle Smith, as it requires 3 levels to get the SADness and even then still needs the Dex?

I can see it being a problem for the Hexblade giving it out at 1st level, just seems like the BS got caught in the crossfire a bit.

Overall I see it as problem now and in future when it comes to SAD gishes. Battle smith can in skillfull hands be build for even EA + GWM spam and I think martial classes need every possible edge to make them stand out while casters and half caster not so much. I just also don't buy a thing about swinging big sword using your social power instead of muscles or power of your intellect... I mean I know it's magic but come on.

[Mjolnirbear]

Sure! If I was running a game for a group of people I didn't know, we could have people choose one from a list, like:

Artificers - Arcana, Investigation, any tool proficiency
Barbarians - Athletics, Intimidation, Survival
Bards - Anything
Clerics - Insight, Medicine, Religion
Druids - Animal Handling, Nature, Survival
Fighters - Athletics, Acrobatics, Intimidation
Monks - Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception
Paladins - Athletics, Religion, Persuasion
Rangers - Perception, Stealth, Survival
Rogues - Anything
Sorcerers - Arcana, Deception, Persuasion
Warlocks - Arcana, Deception, Religion
Wizards - Arcana, History, Nature

Or whatever you like. My general idea is to cut down on the Mad Libs-iness of D&D variance, a little; granted, things aren't always going to go your way all the time, but I've seen new players roll a char all like "Yeah, I can't wait to be a smooth talker," and then roll 1s-5s on every Charisma check and pull their hair out. This way, a character has a little slice of safety.


Perhaps it would be simpler to just say "Pick one skill from your class skill list"?

Also, what would happen with multiclassing?

[Abracadangit]

Perhaps it would be simpler to just say "Pick one skill from your class skill list"?

Also, what would happen with multiclassing?

The way I have it now is: "After selecting your character's skills/tools, select one as your Reliable Talent." So we could adjust to say "After selecting your character's skills that come from their class, select one as your Reliable Talent." That definitely works.

I have everyone do this at level 1, so if we were playing a game where people start at a level higher than 1, I would tell that person to select it from the class skills for whichever class they're counting as their level 1, for Hit Die purposes and whatnot.

[togapika]

List of my simple changes to classes at my Table:
- level 15 Oath of Conquest feature changes to: you ignore enemies Immunity to frighten


Aside from the fact that this is ignoring an immunity, which just gets into a back and forth race, say you're an intelligent construct with no emotion whatsoever, how does a Conquest make them afraid?

[Dienekes]

Aside from the fact that this is ignoring an immunity, which just gets into a back and forth race, say you're an intelligent construct with no emotion whatsoever, how does a Conquest make them afraid?

Could go super saiyan. Seemed to work for Vegeta anyway.

[Valorant]

Aside from the fact that this is ignoring an immunity, which just gets into a back and forth race, say you're an intelligent construct with no emotion whatsoever, how does a Conquest make them afraid?

Same for how battle smith Artificer wields two handed axe with his intellect with STR 8, how lighting damage does nothing more for people in metal armor, how dragons are able to fly and speak, how wizards break every laws of physics, including matter and mass and how Enlarge/Reduce doest affect your weight, how making oath into space makes you super human smitting stuff and paralyzing foes around you and how same construct you mentioned is able to exsist in first place.

Magic. Magic.

[togapika]

Same for how battle smith Artificer wields two handed axe with his intellect with STR 8

Sherlock Holmes. He knows what you'll do before you do it and where you'll be to hit you the hardest

[Valorant]

Sherlock Holmes. He knows what you'll do before you do it and where you'll be to hit you the hardest

Wrong example if you talk about RDJ Sherlock. You can clearly see he has trained body, strength and general physical prowness.

However if you have STR 8 in DnD that means you are below average weak. Yet you are so intelligent you can swing a greatsword around with "heavy" property.

So I don't believe in mental/social attributes using GWM unless its telekinesis or Force. I have enough hard time with them using Heavy weapons with INT/CHA but GWM is too much for me.

[Dork_Forge]

Wrong example if you talk about RDJ Sherlock. You can clearly see he has trained body, strength and general physical prowness.

However if you have STR 8 in DnD that means you are below average weak. Yet you are so intelligent you can swing a greatsword around with "heavy" property.

So I don't believe in mental/social attributes using GWM unless its telekinesis or Force. I have enough hard time with them using Heavy weapons with INT/CHA but GWM is too much for me.

Heavy doesn't necessarily indicate weight, but more the general size and how cumbersome the weapon is, for example a longbow is heavy yet it only weighs 2lbs. A halberd and lance are both 6lbs yet only one of them has the heavy property.

Judging by body tone is not a good way to do it, in D&D terms you could easily say that RDJ's Sherlock is a high Dex with decent Con and a 10 Str.

If you really want a reason that isn't magic for how they use literally heavy weapons, then a case of timing and applying their bodyweight through leverage. They don't need to wield it as easily as a stronger character, they use timing and physics to maximise what they have.

If you want an example that's more in theme with the actual texts:

They use magical weapons like Shinigami from the anime Bleach use their Zanpakto, the size of the weapon is meaningless to them, because to them it feels perfectly balanced and of appropriate weight.

This makes sense since the Battle Smith's Battle Ready ability only works with magic weapons and the Artificer specialises in magic items.

[sithlordnergal]

Warlocks get a 3rd spell at level 6 or 7, there's no reason for warlocks to have 2 spell slots from levels 2 through 11.

Don't get me wrong, being able to cast your spells as the max level is ok...but lets face it, that's not so large of a boon that they have to be stuck with only 2 slots for half of their levels. 2 slots per short rest isn't nearly enough, especially if your DM doesn't let you short rest after every encounter. Not only that, but most spells, including Warlock spells, have horrible scaling, so the higher level slots don't make up for your loss.

[sithlordnergal]

List of my simple changes to classes at my Table:
- Wizards loses Arcane recovery. They are OP enough.


Why get rid of Arcane Recovery? While I get wizards can do a lot with their spells, that's really all a Wizard can do, and as such they need that Arcane Recovery in order to let them get through an entire adventuring day. Unlike Clerics, Bards, or Druids, once their spells are gone a Wizard can't do anything at all, and if you're doing a proper adventuring day then your Wizard should be low on spells on the 2nd Short Rest.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Warlocks get a 3rd spell at level 6 or 7, there's no reason for warlocks to have 2 spell slots from levels 2 through 11.

Don't get me wrong, being able to cast your spells as the max level is ok...but lets face it, that's not so large of a boon that they have to be stuck with only 2 slots for half of their levels. 2 slots per short rest isn't nearly enough, especially if your DM doesn't let you short rest after every encounter. Not only that, but most spells, including Warlock spells, have horrible scaling, so the higher level slots don't make up for your loss.

That sounds more like a complaint against the entire SR/LR dynamic. Which, you know, is fair (though the DMG formula has a SR after every other encounter, not every encounter).

[Dork_Forge]

Why get rid of Arcane Recovery? While I get wizards can do a lot with their spells, that's really all a Wizard can do, and as such they need that Arcane Recovery in order to let them get through an entire adventuring day. Unlike Clerics, Bards, or Druids, once their spells are gone a Wizard can't do anything at all, and if you're doing a proper adventuring day then your Wizard should be low on spells on the 2nd Short Rest.

I'm with Valorant on this, they don't need that many slots.

Unlike other casters, Wizards can ritual cast from their book so even if they're out of slots they're down to cantrips, ritual spells and whatever their subclass abilities are. That's still a lot of casting, and the ritual casting means they'll burn through spells slower than other classes might.

The Wizard being low on slots by the second short rest is very up in the air too, most of what they do will be cantrips anyway and they can afford a slot per encounter at 4th level (assuming one slot is for Mage Armor). Realistically some combats won't warrant use of a slot at all, and the ones that do will be of higher difficulty, so you're either getting less encounters or easier encounters going forwards.

[sithlordnergal]

That sounds more like a complaint against the entire SR/LR dynamic. Which, you know, is fair (though the DMG formula has a SR after every other encounter, not every encounter).

Ehh, I find its actually an issue solely with the warlock. As a DM and player, I find every class with Short Rest resources are able to do just fine with a short rest after every 2 or 3 encounters, except Warlocks. Its really only the Warlocks that end up needing/wanting to Short Rest after every encounter, simply because they don't have the spell slots to do anything else. While their Invocations do help a little, they tend to not be enough to make up for the 2 spell slots. I generally give Warlocks a 3rd spell at level 6, and it ends up evening out.

[sithlordnergal]

I'm with Valorant on this, they don't need that many slots.

Unlike other casters, Wizards can ritual cast from their book so even if they're out of slots they're down to cantrips, ritual spells and whatever their subclass abilities are. That's still a lot of casting, and the ritual casting means they'll burn through spells slower than other classes might.

The Wizard being low on slots by the second short rest is very up in the air too, most of what they do will be cantrips anyway and they can afford a slot per encounter at 4th level (assuming one slot is for Mage Armor). Realistically some combats won't warrant use of a slot at all, and the ones that do will be of higher difficulty, so you're either getting less encounters or easier encounters going forwards.

I mean, the Ritual spells do help, though Clerics, Bards, and Druids get the same thing, and those classes all have abilities that come back after a short rest that let them do more than sling cantrips if they run out of spells. Heck, in the Druid's case they have a Subclass with their own version of Arcane Recovery and Wild Shapes on top of it. Where as Wizards, again, only have their spells and really not much else.

They might get some other small abilities, but most of them either have a very limited resource, such as Portent, or only work when you cast a leveled spell, such as Order of the Scribes. But they get no short rest abilities on par with Channel Divinity, Bardic Inspiration, Wild Shape, ect. I feel like Arcane Recovery is a nice balance, otherwise you'd need to give Wizards some abilities to make up for their 100% reliance on leveled spells.

[Dork_Forge]

I mean, the Ritual spells do help, though Clerics, Bards, and Druids get the same thing

They don't, the Druid and Cleric need to prepare their rituals and the Bard has to spend limited spells known on them.

The nature of the Wizard spell list and ridiculous number of spells they get access to means they can effectively have access to whatever rituals they want, whenever they want.


and those classes all have abilities that come back after a short rest that let them do more than sling cantrips if they run out of spells. Heck, in the Druid's case they have a Subclass with their own version of Arcane Recovery and Wild Shapes on top of it. Where as Wizards, again, only have their spells and really not much else.

They might get some other small abilities, but most of them either have a very limited resource, such as Portent, or only work when you cast a leveled spell, such as Order of the Scribes. But they get no short rest abilities on par with Channel Divinity, Bardic Inspiration, Wild Shape, ect. I feel like Arcane Recovery is a nice balance, otherwise you'd need to give Wizards some abilities to make up for their 100% reliance on leveled spells.

It's worth noting that Wizards get more cantrips than both Bards and Druids.

In the case of comparing subclasses:

-Yes portent is only twice a day, it's an extremely potent ability

-I assume you're talking about the manifest mind feature, the manifested spell book has no diration limit, only if you dismiss it, it's destroyed, too far away or dispelled. So you can carry it over from the previous day, you get one free use a day, then you can use low level slots to use it again. They also get later on an additional 1st or 2nd level spell that's auto upcast.

But then there's the other subclasses that do get abilities that aren't so limited:

-War Wizard: A passive benefit and an at will with a minor limitation

-Bladesinger: A series of buffs for prof times per day and later on an absolutely ridiculous (not in the cool way) version fo Extra Attack

-Abjuration: A ward that you can recharge with rituals and minorly through your everyday casting

- Enchantment: Hypnotic Gaze is unlimited in uses as long as you're not just reusing it on the same target

-Evocation: More effective spells means less spells spent, more useful cantrips means less spells spent

-Necromancy: More undead to do things on your behalf

You have to remember, whilst those classes have short rest resources, their subclasses rely on those resources (in every case except some early Druids), making them very hotly contested. Then there's balancing factors like the scouting potential of Wildshape is handled by Find Familiar and so on.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love if the Wizard had an actual niche and features, but that doesn't mean that the amount of casting they get isn't too much.

[Mjolnirbear]

I mean, the Ritual spells do help, though Clerics, Bards, and Druids get the same thing, and those classes all have abilities that come back after a short rest that let them do more than sling cantrips if they run out of spells. Heck, in the Druid's case they have a Subclass with their own version of Arcane Recovery and Wild Shapes on top of it. Where as Wizards, again, only have their spells and really not much else.

They might get some other small abilities, but most of them either have a very limited resource, such as Portent, or only work when you cast a leveled spell, such as Order of the Scribes. But they get no short rest abilities on par with Channel Divinity, Bardic Inspiration, Wild Shape, ect. I feel like Arcane Recovery is a nice balance, otherwise you'd need to give Wizards some abilities to make up for their 100% reliance on leveled spells.

Crucially though, Wizards don't have to prepare their rituals. It's takes up zero brain space. And even though cleric and druid can switch out prepared spells, if you switch it out you can't use it. And bards takes up a precious precious spell known spot.

I actually agree that the Wizard doesn't need it...but I wouldn't bother changing it because I don't agree that strongly and frankly nerfs are less awesome for players than buffs.

I also wish they had more exciting abilities. One wizard plays very much like another, as opposed to, say, artificers, fighters, rogues, bards, clerics, druids, and monks, whose subclasses change a whole lot about how they interact with the world. But like with arcane recovery, I wouldn't change it, because I don't care that much, and it's mostly already the best class and frankly I'm too lazy to work on that.

[Amechra]

Warlocks get a 3rd spell at level 6 or 7, there's no reason for warlocks to have 2 spell slots from levels 2 through 11.

Don't get me wrong, being able to cast your spells as the max level is ok...but lets face it, that's not so large of a boon that they have to be stuck with only 2 slots for half of their levels. 2 slots per short rest isn't nearly enough, especially if your DM doesn't let you short rest after every encounter. Not only that, but most spells, including Warlock spells, have horrible scaling, so the higher level slots don't make up for your loss.

I forgot about this one — I like giving it to them at 5th level.

[Kane0]

If your warlock is having a hard time with the number of spells they can put out during a day i'd rather do the 'cast x spell' invocations once per LR without a slot each rather than an extra pact magic slot.

Largely much of a muchness, but I think the change to the invocations is the smaller, better balanced step.

[Mjolnirbear]

Oh! I forgot one of my recent changes:

https://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/343514

Basically, when you become proficient in a skill, you gain an ability related to that skill. When you become expert, you gain a stronger ability.

Some have multiple choices; you only pick one. When you gain expertise, you can instead choose another Proficient ability.

For instance, Stealth Proficiency offers two choices: Shadowing (advantage with stealth checks against a specific individual whilst following them in a crowd) or Footwork (checks made to listen for you while you are hiding have disadvantage). If you gain Expertise in Stealth, you can choose either of those or the Expertise feature, Infiltration Plan (choose proficiency # of Allies, discuss infiltration with them, they gain proficiency in stealth for one hour as they follow the plan).

It means every class gets at least four new thematic and fun options. The casters don't really need it, but my players are all having fun with this and maneuvers

[Paulini]

Question: does anyone have link to some big/official surveys about what classes/subclasses are considered best/worst in 5e?