My problem with the -5 +10 feats

[Asisreo1]

So, when the -5 +10 feats (GWM/SS) are discussed, I notice an important distinction that goes unnoticed. The next two paragraphs are for a short refresher on the math of the feats.

Firstly, we all know that if the +10 damage is worth the -5 accuracy, you'll use it. So, if your damage more than doubles per attack with your accuracy going less than half, then you're good. For example, needing an 11 to-hit has a 50% chance to succeed, the feat would make you require a 16 to-hit, which is a 25% chance to hit. Halving the accuracy. If you normally do an average of 10 damage, you double the damage with the feat. Effectively, the feat doesn't do anything on-average. If the need to-hit turns to 12->17, that's 45%->20% chance to-hit, reducing accuracy by more than half. If the damage is >10, the bonus damage will do less than double. This means there's a relationship between to-hit and damage in terms of the effectiveness of the feats.

When they are discussed, they're usually at sufficiently high levels. This means someone's to-hit looks something like +8 <-> +11. The principle of bounded accuracy lets most monster's AC remain somewhere in the lower 20's to mid-high teens even at high level. The Goblin has an AC 15 while the Lich has an AC 17. So usually the to-hits increase faster than the AC. There's also the 65% accuracy assumptions we make based on the AC chart in the DMG, under Creating a Monster. Well, if we were to put those two aspects together, we should see that the to-hit will be at or above the 65% threshold. Meanwhile, on the other side, the character that makes the most effective use of GWM and SS is the fighter with a plethora of extra attacks. The standard assumption for a GWM using fighter is the Greatsword while the SS fighter has a longbow and probably takes the archery fighting style, turning the effective 65% to an effective 75%. The GWM's average damage per hit is 12 while the SS's average damage is 9.5. This means a +10 does less than double for the GWM fighter and slightly more than doubles the SS.

Okay, with that out of the way, let me explain my hang ups with the feats.

The 65% assumption works with the table, but the table's primary function involves HP and Damage, the to-hit and AC of the monster then modifies it. Most creatures do not have the effective AC of the chart, they're slightly higher because the creature doesn't have as many HP on the chart, especially mid-high level monsters. But their AC doesn't seem so good in reality. Why? Because they usually have an effect that increases their effective AC. For example, a Faerie Dragon's Superior Invisibility increases their effective AC by 2, while it reads AC 15, their effective AC is 17.

Why bother with effective AC? Because it leads to my point:

Most creatures at high level operate in situations which will put their enemy in disadvantage and reduce their accuracy further. Dragons will frighten, Liches will Cloudkill, Krakens will restrain, and Fiends will Poison.

There's more ways to grant disadvantage on to your character than there is to grant advantage to your own attacks. And these disadvantages could turn a good chance to-hit into a bad to-hit chance, especially since the -5 is no longer a linear -25% accuracy debuff. Take a Kraken: It has an AC of 18. To a normal level 20 character, that's a required 6 to-hit, turning into an 11 to-hit with the feat, a 75% to 50% chance. But if the Kraken grapples/restrains the PC first, the to-hit accuracy now goes from 56.4% chance to a 24.9% chance, more than halving the damage. In this scenario, even a level 20 fighter doesn't want to use the feat.

TL;DR I'm not sure how whether using GWM/SS for DPR under the assumption that getting advantage or having about a 65% chance to-hit should be made. To me, it feels like forcing GWM/SS into this box of "guaranteed optimization" status is too firm for a feat which becomes situational under a DM which can optimize a monster's abilities.

[Tanarii]

It's useful at lower levels. Monster ACs are generally low enough and base damage is generally low enough.

For example, on most level 4 characters with +3 ability score mod and no special sources of damage boost and a greatsword, it's best to use it against AC 16 or lower. The number of low level enemies with AC 17 or higher is very small. Sharpshooter is often even worse because it's typically paired with Archery style, and longbows are even lower base damage. It's typically useful against AC 18 or lower. And that's before advantage.

Reference on how to calculate target AC to use GWM or SS: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?472938-Great-Weapon-Mastery-How-to-5-10-Like-a-Pro

[Asisreo1]

It's useful at lower levels. Monster ACs are generally low enough and base damage is generally low enough.

For example, on most level 4 characters with +3 ability score mod and no special sources of damage boost and a greatsword, it's best to use it against AC 16 or lower. The number of low level enemies with AC 17 or higher is very small. Sharpshooter is often even worse because it's typically paired with Archery style, and longbows are even lower base damage. It's typically useful against AC 18 or lower. And that's before advantage.

Reference on how to calculate target AC to use GWM or SS: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?472938-Great-Weapon-Mastery-How-to-5-10-Like-a-Pro
Maybe...but it still doesn't address the main point:

GWM/SS isn't quite as powerful nor consistent as the general community holds it as. It can be useful, its a feat after all. But I don't think its amazing.

Remember, a character needs to take the feats from races to obtain GWM/SS at early levels and taking it from ASIs interfere with the ability score progression. Taking it as a racial trait either from V.human or Tasha's Custom Lineage also interferes with ASI progression, though it does so later on.

The biggest thing, though, is that enemies will still be trying to fight your character when the party is at disadvantage. Proning and Dodging is something every monster can do and that makes GWM/SS ineffective as low as AC 11, assuming +5 to-hit. I think most creatures are at or above that as well.

[SharkForce]

Maybe...but it still doesn't address the main point:

GWM/SS isn't quite as powerful nor consistent as the general community holds it as. It can be useful, its a feat after all. But I don't think its amazing.

Remember, a character needs to take the feats from races to obtain GWM/SS at early levels and taking it from ASIs interfere with the ability score progression. Taking it as a racial trait either from V.human or Tasha's Custom Lineage also interferes with ASI progression, though it does so later on.

The biggest thing, though, is that enemies will still be trying to fight your character when the party is at disadvantage. Proning and Dodging is something every monster can do and that makes GWM/SS ineffective as low as AC 11, assuming +5 to-hit. I think most creatures are at or above that as well.

you really find that high level parties don't have ways to get advantage reasonably often?

because that has not been my experience.

personally, my problem with the feats is very simple: they excessively favour a small subset of weapons over all other weapons.

now, if all of those other weapons were *supposed* to be niche, like, if we were talking about spears being good, swords being good, and a ship's anchor being bad, that would be mostly fine. but it isn't. instead, we have lots of weapons that have no reason to be worse than other weapons, and yet are simply not as good at dealing damage which is the primary function of weapons in general. that's really not ideal. a person who wants to use a broadsword should not be told they're not allowed to be as effective as the person who likes glaives or halberds purely on the basis of what they like.

[Yakk]

-5/+10, if you have a way to reliably generate advantage, does a bit more damage against level appropriate foes than a +2 bonus to your weapon attack attribute.

When your weapon attack attribute is 20, -5/+10 gives you a non-zero boost (on average) to weapon attack damage per hit.

As a PC and party, you can *build* your character and party to grant reliable advantage. Get invisibility, be a samurai, darkness and devil's sight, whatever.

You grab -5/+10 GWM on a barbarian, where you are already planning on attacking recklessly. You grab -5/+10 SS on a character who splashes rogue, where you deke in and out of cover with a bonus action hide.

Now, when you run into a Faerie Dragon with superior invisiblity, you or your allies can break its concentration, it can be killed by a random AOE, or someone can drop faerie fire on it.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I'm not sure if you're saying they are a problem because they are just overestimated but still decent, or because they are just not very good feats. If it's the first I probably broadly agree with you; there are some people who figure you just need one of these to make a good martial and I'd say they are wrong.
PAM and/ or S+B fighting styles are perfectly good in their own right and depending on the build can be a better fit. As the base damage goes up (rogues are probably the best example) it's less worth the risk of a miss for the extra 10 hp. Also, unless a character's attack stat is a 20 the actual math is -6, +9 accounting for the lost ASI.
All that said the combination of Archery style + the other benefits of Sharpshooter in ignoring range and cover make this feat arguably OP if a character can regularly attack at distance. We had a lot of sea battles while playing Ghosts of Saltmarsh and I pretty much had to throw in fog or other environmental obstacles regularly to avoid the Sharpshooter from slaughtering everything he could see.

[Valorant]

:

Most creatures at high level operate in situations which will put their enemy in disadvantage and reduce their accuracy further. Dragons will frighten, Liches will Cloudkill, Krakens will restrain, and Fiends will Poison.

There's more ways to grant disadvantage on to your character than there is to grant advantage to your own attacks. .

This is all false. This is not solo game. Your Dragon will frighten but my whole party is under effect of Heroes Feast since level 11 (edit: level correction, I mistook spell levels) and we don't care about it. My party Paladin also don't care. Liches can cloudkill but half my party can dispel magic or counter spell and if your lich rolls bad on initiative and my hasted by wizard Paladin gets on his face- chances are he will not even see 2nd turn or he will find himself grappled by PC inside Silence. Poison is mostly CON saving throw which martials have high and removing it is trivial.

Also false with ways to get advatange. Especially post Tasha we have tons of ways to do it know. Blind fighting style and fog cloud combo/darkness combo, devils sight darkness combo, shadow of moil, greater invisibility, guardian of nature, fighting spirit, tenser transforsmtion, foresight, vow of enmity, grapple prone builds, trip manouvers, wolf totem barbarian, help action from familiars, bonus action hide, gloomstalker invisibility, fearie fire. Many can be comboed together in single builds, many work with elven accuracy.

I agree that GWM is mostly overrated at higher tiers however if you are build well you won't have a problem with majority of enemies but if you can combine elven accuracy with GWM you will be very effective.

SS have no issues on higher levels with just normal advatange because every serious SS build grabs archery fighting style making it -3 +10 Instead. Further amplified by precision strikes or elven accuracy.

Not to mention even gear. At levels 12+ weapons +2 are very likely to be on table since martials desperately need them to keep up with casters not to mention weapons with some bonuses.

Overall both feats are great with GWM being slightly overrated especially at tier 2 and 3. But SS with archery style is golden. And we never had more ways to get advantage in 5e than we have now.

[Hytheter]

my whole party is under effect of Heroes Feast every day since level 9 and we don't care about it.

That's impressive considering Heroes' Feast is a 6th level spell and can't be cast until level 11. And also because every casting costs 1000gp.

[Valorant]

That's impressive considering Heroes' Feast is a 6th level spell and can't be cast until level 11. And also because every casting costs 1000gp.

Good correction. Mistake by my side of spell level but point remains: there tons of way to counter every single thing enemy can do and action economy will always favour PCs. Twilight cleric can trivialize frighten, peace cleric can apply bond, clerics can remove frighten, paladins have high Wis rolls and aura. This is team based game. For every mechanic a single enemy has PCs have 3 and more to counter. Dragons are probably easiest Big Bads in game to kill by PCs unless every single player is newbie in game.

1000gp at level 11 is peanuts especially with wizard in party. And if party knows they will fight dragon a 1000gp for ez roll over him is nothing as his treasures will compensate that.

[Jerrykhor]

TL;DR I'm not sure how whether using GWM/SS for DPR under the assumption that getting advantage or having about a 65% chance to-hit should be made. To me, it feels like forcing GWM/SS into this box of "guaranteed optimization" status is too firm for a feat which becomes situational under a DM which can optimize a monster's abilities.

My Barbarian/Fighter currently have +15 to hit, with advantage from Reckless, and he's only level13. He seldom misses, and when he does, Precision Strike takes care of that. I just GWM all the time without a thought.

YMMV, but I don't find monsters have many abilities that increase their AC, or grant disadvantage to hit. Plus if you're talking about high level play, then you have to assume that the PCs also have powerful magic items.

The problem with GWM is that it doesnt scale. +10 damage is big at level 1, but not so at level 15. But still, what are you gonna do, NOT have +10 damage?

[stoutstien]

Due to the way advantage and disadvantage cancel out, regardless of how many instances there are, it's common for most attacks to occur normally if both sides are attempting to generate advantage for themselves and disadvantage for the enemies.

So for the kraken example one could simply block it's sight/prone/whatever and the fighter being grappled/retrained is back to normal attacks where the -5/10 is still a benefit. That's assuming the party didn't already have any plans to prevent the grappling or have ways to automatically break it readily available.

At this point one could say the fighter had foresight cast on them because they were the only one planning on getting close enough to the kraken to deal with most of it's kit.

[Waazraath]

The other benefits the feats offer are very nice as well. So even in a game where the -5/+10 doesn't come up as often due to liberal use of disadvantage giving monsters, and a party not being able to counter that, I still think they could be worth it.

[Foxydono]

This is all false. This is not solo game. Your Dragon will frighten but my whole party is under effect of Heroes Feast since level 11 (edit: level correction, I mistook spell levels) and we don't care about it. My party Paladin also don't care. Liches can cloudkill but half my party can dispel magic or counter spell and if your lich rolls bad on initiative and my hasted by wizard Paladin gets on his face- chances are he will not even see 2nd turn or he will find himself grappled by PC inside Silence. Poison is mostly CON saving throw which martials have high and removing it is trivial.

Also false with ways to get advatange. Especially post Tasha we have tons of ways to do it know. Blind fighting style and fog cloud combo/darkness combo, devils sight darkness combo, shadow of moil, greater invisibility, guardian of nature, fighting spirit, tenser transforsmtion, foresight, vow of enmity, grapple prone builds, trip manouvers, wolf totem barbarian, help action from familiars, bonus action hide, gloomstalker invisibility, fearie fire. Many can be comboed together in single builds, many work with elven accuracy.

I agree that GWM is mostly overrated at higher tiers however if you are build well you won't have a problem with majority of enemies but if you can combine elven accuracy with GWM you will be very effective.

SS have no issues on higher levels with just normal advatange because every serious SS build grabs archery fighting style making it -3 +10 Instead. Further amplified by precision strikes or elven accuracy.

Not to mention even gear. At levels 12+ weapons +2 are very likely to be on table since martials desperately need them to keep up with casters not to mention weapons with some bonuses.

Overall both feats are great with GWM being slightly overrated especially at tier 2 and 3. But SS with archery style is golden. And we never had more ways to get advantage in 5e than we have now.
I agree with this. I played 2/3 years in tier 4+ campaign (high magic). If you are in aan efficiënt party and play smart, you rarely suffer dissadvantage. Not even mentioning Foresight.

Furthetmore, the AC of high lvl monsters is a joke. Yes, really. Lets take an ancient red dragon, ac 22. You have a +3 crossbow with archery fighting style and max dex: +6 +3 +2 +5 to hit. +16 to hit with 22 AC? I like these odds without advantage, but with EA you often enough get triple advantage, especially as a rogue.

Tldr: high tier game works fine with - 5/+10, assuming you have appropriate magic items for your level.

[Eldariel]

The problem with GWM is that it doesnt scale. +10 damage is big at level 1, but not so at level 15. But still, what are you gonna do, NOT have +10 damage?

It scales the same as all the other martial damage: through extra attacks. +10 damage on 1-4, +20 on 5-10, +30 on 11-19 and +40 on 20 with additional +10 from bonus action attack.

[stoutstien]

It scales the same as all the other martial damage: through extra attacks. +10 damage on 1-4, +20 on 5-10, +30 on 11-19 and +40 on 20 with additional +10 from bonus action attack.
It actually scales better with number of attacks than the base weapon+mod value does for classes that don't have any damage type resources to expend on hits. The fact it's useable for with smaller damage dice like the PaM bonis action attack or SS and a hand crossbow means you can get to the point the amount of damage you gamble with the -/+ is safely below the return of landing at least one attack.

Saying that I do think both feats are overrated in the early game. I think 3+ attacks is the cut off for making the return worth it. Also attack roll boosting features start getting cheap enough around the middle of tier 2/start of tier 3 to make it a safe investment. There are exceptions with player options that can spike accuracy and attack count often enough (Sammy fighter) to make it a safe bet as early as possible but generally I wouldn't worry about it until the return of primary stat caps out or I've already taken all the other stuff I wanted.

[Frogreaver]

So, when the -5 +10 feats (GWM/SS) are discussed, I notice an important distinction that goes unnoticed. The next two paragraphs are for a short refresher on the math of the feats.

Firstly, we all know that if the +10 damage is worth the -5 accuracy, you'll use it. So, if your damage more than doubles per attack with your accuracy going less than half, then you're good. For example, needing an 11 to-hit has a 50% chance to succeed, the feat would make you require a 16 to-hit, which is a 25% chance to hit. Halving the accuracy. If you normally do an average of 10 damage, you double the damage with the feat. Effectively, the feat doesn't do anything on-average. If the need to-hit turns to 12->17, that's 45%->20% chance to-hit, reducing accuracy by more than half. If the damage is >10, the bonus damage will do less than double. This means there's a relationship between to-hit and damage in terms of the effectiveness of the feats.

This seems like a good place to note the following accuracy buffs that aren't commonly factored into the GWM/SS discussions even though most parties have access to some of these.

Bless
Bardic Inspiration
Magic Weapons
Ways allies can grant you advantage (numerous spells / prone / etc)


When they are discussed, they're usually at sufficiently high levels. This means someone's to-hit looks something like +8 <-> +11. The principle of bounded accuracy lets most monster's AC remain somewhere in the lower 20's to mid-high teens even at high level. The Goblin has an AC 15 while the Lich has an AC 17. So usually the to-hits increase faster than the AC. There's also the 65% accuracy assumptions we make based on the AC chart in the DMG, under Creating a Monster. Well, if we were to put those two aspects together, we should see that the to-hit will be at or above the 65% threshold. Meanwhile, on the other side, the character that makes the most effective use of GWM and SS is the fighter with a plethora of extra attacks. The standard assumption for a GWM using fighter is the Greatsword while the SS fighter has a longbow and probably takes the archery fighting style, turning the effective 65% to an effective 75%. The GWM's average damage per hit is 12 while the SS's average damage is 9.5. This means a +10 does less than double for the GWM fighter and slightly more than doubles the SS.

So you are trying to analyze this a way I find inadequate. When I want a quick estimate to compare 2 builds I'll pick a single AC and run the numbers just so I have a point of comparison. But if I'm really wanting to do a deep analysis I calc it for numerous AC's.

What tends to happen is that as target AC increases the impact becomes smaller and smaller.


Okay, with that out of the way, let me explain my hang ups with the feats.

The 65% assumption works with the table, but the table's primary function involves HP and Damage, the to-hit and AC of the monster then modifies it. Most creatures do not have the effective AC of the chart, they're slightly higher because the creature doesn't have as many HP on the chart, especially mid-high level monsters. But their AC doesn't seem so good in reality. Why? Because they usually have an effect that increases their effective AC. For example, a Faerie Dragon's Superior Invisibility increases their effective AC by 2, while it reads AC 15, their effective AC is 17.

Why bother with effective AC? Because it leads to my point:

Most creatures at high level operate in situations which will put their enemy in disadvantage and reduce their accuracy further. Dragons will frighten, Liches will Cloudkill, Krakens will restrain, and Fiends will Poison.

Sure, disadvantage happens and it impacts the -5/+10 option more. You can always forgo using the -5/+10 part of the feat though when it's detrimental to do so. Or an ally can do something that grants advantage and you can attack normally. Lot's of possibilities there. I'm just not sure that the fact that some enemies will be able to cause disadvantage sometimes on your attacks outweigh the other buffs (from allies) that aren't usually factored into the numbers. And I mean there's going to be plenty attacks made where you aren't under the effects of disadvantage. Meaning that if the -5/+10 is useful even half the time than it's still a big buff.


There's more ways to grant disadvantage on to your character than there is to grant advantage to your own attacks. And these disadvantages could turn a good chance to-hit into a bad to-hit chance, especially since the -5 is no longer a linear -25% accuracy debuff. Take a Kraken: It has an AC of 18. To a normal level 20 character, that's a required 6 to-hit, turning into an 11 to-hit with the feat, a 75% to 50% chance. But if the Kraken grapples/restrains the PC first, the to-hit accuracy now goes from 56.4% chance to a 24.9% chance, more than halving the damage. In this scenario, even a level 20 fighter doesn't want to use the feat.

It's not so much that your calcs are wrong, it's that they are missing a ton of context. It's not enough to say an enemy that can cause you to have disadvantage will both choose to target you and have you fail the typical save DC involved. It's like you are acting like any creature that can cause disadvantage will always choose the GWM or SS and always succeed at doing so. In practice, these factors greatly reduce the liklihood you will experience disadvantage. And even then, there's also the rest of your party to consider.

[Asisreo1]

I'm not sure if you're saying they are a problem because they are just overestimated but still decent, or because they are just not very good feats. If it's the first I probably broadly agree with you; there are some people who figure you just need one of these to make a good martial and I'd say they are wrong.
PAM and/ or S+B fighting styles are perfectly good in their own right and depending on the build can be a better fit. As the base damage goes up (rogues are probably the best example) it's less worth the risk of a miss for the extra 10 hp. Also, unless a character's attack stat is a 20 the actual math is -6, +9 accounting for the lost ASI.
All that said the combination of Archery style + the other benefits of Sharpshooter in ignoring range and cover make this feat arguably OP if a character can regularly attack at distance. We had a lot of sea battles while playing Ghosts of Saltmarsh and I pretty much had to throw in fog or other environmental obstacles regularly to avoid the Sharpshooter from slaughtering everything he could see.
I am saying they're overestimated, but decent. They should definitely be held as "good feats" but I'm not convinced we can safely put a ribbon and bow on the whole -5, +10 aspects of the spell.

This is all false. This is not solo game. Your Dragon will frighten but my whole party is under effect of Heroes Feast since level 11 (edit: level correction, I mistook spell levels) and we don't care about it. My party Paladin also don't care. Liches can cloudkill but half my party can dispel magic or counter spell and if your lich rolls bad on initiative and my hasted by wizard Paladin gets on his face- chances are he will not even see 2nd turn or he will find himself grappled by PC inside Silence. Poison is mostly CON saving throw which martials have high and removing it is trivial.

Also false with ways to get advatange. Especially post Tasha we have tons of ways to do it know. Blind fighting style and fog cloud combo/darkness combo, devils sight darkness combo, shadow of moil, greater invisibility, guardian of nature, fighting spirit, tenser transforsmtion, foresight, vow of enmity, grapple prone builds, trip manouvers, wolf totem barbarian, help action from familiars, bonus action hide, gloomstalker invisibility, fearie fire. Many can be comboed together in single builds, many work with elven accuracy.

I agree that GWM is mostly overrated at higher tiers however if you are build well you won't have a problem with majority of enemies but if you can combine elven accuracy with GWM you will be very effective.

SS have no issues on higher levels with just normal advatange because every serious SS build grabs archery fighting style making it -3 +10 Instead. Further amplified by precision strikes or elven accuracy.

Not to mention even gear. At levels 12+ weapons +2 are very likely to be on table since martials desperately need them to keep up with casters not to mention weapons with some bonuses.

Overall both feats are great with GWM being slightly overrated especially at tier 2 and 3. But SS with archery style is golden. And we never had more ways to get advantage in 5e than we have now.
If you can cast Heroes' Feast before a dragon fight, good on you. It may take a little preparation ahead of time, though. Making the material component takes roughly 100 days so you hopefully stocked up on downtime and didn't use it day 1 of the 3 day adventure.

Which is a point: Smart enemies are going to smart. Played well and given a reasonable chance to display their abilities, most creatures are going to be completely disruptive to your party's tactics unless you're overly prepared or the DM makes the enemy a fool.

Your level 18 Party is fighting a Lich. Your Paladin has a +1 in Constitution (used all ASI's on CHA and STR, plus one for GWM). Liches know Paladins are very dangerous, they cast Frostbolt on the Paladin every turn with Legendary Action. The Paladin has 121.5 HP. They're speed is reduced due to Frostbolt and I would never start a lich in melee distance, even with haste. If they still somehow get in melee, use Paralyzing Touch. If they don't get in, cast Power Word Kill. The Paladin has taken 54 frost damage and within PWK range.

Getting advantage isn't trivial either. You mentioned many ways to grant advantage but they're the problem. Most require very good spell/feature combinations and they still aren't guaranteed to work. If an enemy has Devil Sight or True Sight, Darkness doesn't work. Blindsight enemies bypass fog cloud stunts. Grapple/Prone relies on winning ability checks for STR and DEX, which isn't particularly easy even with proficiency and is still susceptible to frightened.

I don't think casting higher level concentration spells or requiring close details to building your character can be considered getting advantage easily.

[Frogreaver]

I am saying they're overestimated, but decent. They should definitely be held as "good feats" but I'm not convinced we can safely put a ribbon and bow on the whole -5, +10 aspects of the spell.

If you can cast Heroes' Feast before a dragon fight, good on you. It may take a little preparation ahead of time, though. Making the material component takes roughly 100 days so you hopefully stocked up on downtime and didn't use it day 1 of the 3 day adventure.

Which is a point: Smart enemies are going to smart. Played well and given a reasonable chance to display their abilities, most creatures are going to be completely disruptive to your party's tactics unless you're overly prepared or the DM makes the enemy a fool.

Your level 18 Party is fighting a Lich. Your Paladin has a +1 in Constitution (used all ASI's on CHA and STR, plus one for GWM). Liches know Paladins are very dangerous, they cast Frostbolt on the Paladin every turn with Legendary Action. The Paladin has 121.5 HP. They're speed is reduced due to Frostbolt and I would never start a lich in melee distance, even with haste. If they still somehow get in melee, use Paralyzing Touch. If they don't get in, cast Power Word Kill. The Paladin has taken 54 frost damage and within PWK range.

Getting advantage isn't trivial either. You mentioned many ways to grant advantage but they're the problem. Most require very good spell/feature combinations and they still aren't guaranteed to work. If an enemy has Devil Sight or True Sight, Darkness doesn't work. Blindsight enemies bypass fog cloud stunts. Grapple/Prone relies on winning ability checks for STR and DEX, which isn't particularly easy even with proficiency and is still susceptible to frightened.

I don't think casting higher level concentration spells or requiring close details to building your character can be considered getting advantage easily.

It's interesting to me that your argument is that PC's will not always be successful at advantage but there's an underlying assumption here that enemies are successful at the disadvantage they are trying to impose. I think the better middle of the road take is that having disadvantage applied to your attacks isn't something common enough to worry about. Between the number of enemies that have such abilities, your allies counters to such abilities, successful saving throws against the disadvantage, and potentially not being targeted by such abilities in the first place, it's not going to be particularly common that you are faced with disadvantage often enough to change any generalizations about GWM/SS usefulness.

Not to mention you've now created Scrodingers enemies. I'm no longer contending with a single concrete enemy that can maybe cause disadvantage to the GWM/SS and either has or doesn't have blindsight or high str/dex checks or the ability or the ability to frighten. Nope, I'm now always fighting the perfect foil for whatever advantage generator that is being used.

[stoutstien]

I am saying they're overestimated, but decent. They should definitely be held as "good feats" but I'm not convinced we can safely put a ribbon and bow on the whole -5, +10 aspects of the spell.

If you can cast Heroes' Feast before a dragon fight, good on you. It may take a little preparation ahead of time, though. Making the material component takes roughly 100 days so you hopefully stocked up on downtime and didn't use it day 1 of the 3 day adventure.

Which is a point: Smart enemies are going to smart. Played well and given a reasonable chance to display their abilities, most creatures are going to be completely disruptive to your party's tactics unless you're overly prepared or the DM makes the enemy a fool.

Your level 18 Party is fighting a Lich. Your Paladin has a +1 in Constitution (used all ASI's on CHA and STR, plus one for GWM). Liches know Paladins are very dangerous, they cast Frostbolt on the Paladin every turn with Legendary Action. The Paladin has 121.5 HP. They're speed is reduced due to Frostbolt and I would never start a lich in melee distance, even with haste. If they still somehow get in melee, use Paralyzing Touch. If they don't get in, cast Power Word Kill. The Paladin has taken 54 frost damage and within PWK range.

Getting advantage isn't trivial either. You mentioned many ways to grant advantage but they're the problem. Most require very good spell/feature combinations and they still aren't guaranteed to work. If an enemy has Devil Sight or True Sight, Darkness doesn't work. Blindsight enemies bypass fog cloud stunts. Grapple/Prone relies on winning ability checks for STR and DEX, which isn't particularly easy even with proficiency and is still susceptible to frightened.

I don't think casting higher level concentration spells or requiring close details to building your character can be considered getting advantage easily.

Lich is a bad example IMO. It very glass cannonish so once you get to it at all it's practically over. It has practically no way to prevent str and dex based movement restriction so it usually ends up burning half it's spell slots and actions just staying upright and free to move. Or the pally just dodges cutting the chance of being hit or uses a different form of movement to get in range, or someone else just moves the lock closer, or......

GWM is also a red herring here because the lich probably would consider the pally the largest threat (for good reasons) regardless and a player worth half an egg in a baking contest wouldn't use the -/+ portion of the feat because they are probably going burn a big slot on the first hit and try to repeat the process for every attack. The entire scenario is a non sequitur.


The only thing preventing the lich to be a complete joke at that CR is it's ability to continual come back until you locate it's phylactery that is only destroyable by DM fiat. Though preventing it from fueling eventually gets the job done.

[Asisreo1]

It's interesting to me that your argument is that PC's will not always be successful at advantage but there's an underlying assumption here that enemies are successful at the disadvantage they are trying to impose. I think the better middle of the road take is that having disadvantage applied to your attacks isn't something common enough to worry about. Between the number of enemies that have such abilities, your allies counters to such abilities, successful saving throws against the disadvantage, and potentially not being targeted by such abilities in the first place, it's not going to be particularly common that you are faced with disadvantage often enough to change any generalizations about GWM/SS.

Not to mention you've now created Scrodingers enemies. I'm no longer contending with a single concrete enemy that can maybe cause disadvantage to the GWM/SS and either has or doesn't have blindsight or high str/dex checks or the ability or the ability to frighten. Nope, I'm now always fighting the perfect foil for whatever advantage generator that is being used.


Lich is a bad example IMO. It very glass cannonish so once you get to it at all it's practically over. It has practically no way to prevent str and dex based movement restriction so it usually ends up burning half it's spell slots and actions just staying upright and free to move. Or the pally just dodges cutting the chance of being hit or uses a different form of movement to get in range, or someone else just moves the lock closer, or......


The only thing preventing the lich to be a complete joke at that CR is it's ability to continual come back until you locate it's phylactery that is only destroyable by DM fiat. Though preventing it from fueling eventually gets the job done.
I hear your concerns, but I disagree. I would like to showcase how exactly I would play an enemy to force a disadvantageous state against even the most well-fortified allies with reliable consistency. I've done so multiple times and I'm thinking that having a challenge in the form of a Play-by-post combat would prove myself.

I don't know if either of you would accept but to make it easier, I will post the conditions of the fight and I want to see if you can optimize away disadvantages. I'm very tempted to use the Lich as the base example since its been considered a joke fight.

So, here are my conditions for the fight: You have a party of 4, you can build your party however you want, but the build options must come from the PHB, Xanathar's, and/or Tasha's. Your party will be level 16, putting it just past the edge of "deadly" and a reasonably boss fight. Also, for the main point of the thread, one of the party members having GWM/SS would be helpful.

Your party has played previous adventures and acquired magic items randomly generated and, over time, acquired an array of items to choose from. You can choose 1 very rare items and 2 rare items. You can replace each rare item with 2 uncommon items. Probably throws the game into your favor even more.

I won't modify the Lich's statblock, but please don't study the statblock. If you have certain aspects memorized, that's fine, but don't go searching for perfect counters beyond common lich knowledge.

The lich is in her massive throne room, awaiting your arrival for the final battle. She will have predicted your arrival and your party knows for a fact that she has been scrying on them throughout their adventure. She doesn't know everything, but she's done her research on your party. The battle will start as soon as the party enters and the throne is roughly 150' from the door. Unfortunately, it would be ToTM, but distance tracking will be a thing.
Also, if its against the rules, I'd be happy to make a PBP thread instead and we can come back to discuss the results. This offer is extended to everyone, btw.

[stoutstien]

Before hand. Is the phylactery in the same room?

[Asisreo1]

Before hand. Is the phylactery in the same room?
We can say that on your way to the throne room, you somehow ended up locating the phylactery (we'll say it was in a warded demiplane and sequestered), killing its guardian (A skeleton veterans and a death knight), and successfully destroying it. The lich is very upset but she knows a ritual to rebuild it. It takes time, though. Knowing all that stands between her rebuilding the phylactery is the fight between you and her. Also, you all are fully healed.

Don't worry about her trying to escape, either. She won't leave the throne room. Let's say she's already begun the passive stages of the ritual and willingly moving out of the room would not only cancel the ritual but also make future attempts of rebuilding the phylactery impossible.

All of this context to say: yes, this is a showdown between the party and the lich. Don't worry about shenanigans or gotchas other than what can be applied for in the fight.

Also, my last request would be: no simulacra.

[Aimeryan]

Did not see this mentioned in the thread (may of missed it); have you considered that you will not always be fighting a single CR appropriate enemy? A four player level 11 party may very well face three enemies of CR 5 - the AC of these enemies will likely be a fair bit lower, which improves the lot of GWM/SS.

In fact, I would say the common encounter is not a single CR appropriate enemy.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Did not see this mentioned in the thread (may of missed it); have you considered that you will not always be fighting a single CR appropriate enemy? A four player level 11 party may very well face three enemies of CR 5 - the AC of these enemies will likely be a fair bit lower, which improves the lot of GWM/SS.

In fact, I would say the common encounter is not a single CR appropriate enemy.

I'll double down and agree with this guy here. Especially with Bounded Accuracy, action economy is king and an equal amount of enemies to PCs can be just as challenging, if not more so, then a single opponent.

EDIT: Consider the following - there's only a 200 XP difference between fighting 3 archmages and 1 Ancient white dragon (both theoretically Deadly encounters). Which would your 4 person party rather fight?

[Frogreaver]

I hear your concerns, but I disagree. I would like to showcase how exactly I would play an enemy to force a disadvantageous state against even the most well-fortified allies with reliable consistency. I've done so multiple times and I'm thinking that having a challenge in the form of a Play-by-post combat would prove myself.

I don't know if either of you would accept but to make it easier, I will post the conditions of the fight and I want to see if you can optimize away disadvantages. I'm very tempted to use the Lich as the base example since its been considered a joke fight.

So, here are my conditions for the fight: You have a party of 4, you can build your party however you want, but the build options must come from the PHB, Xanathar's, and/or Tasha's. Your party will be level 16, putting it just past the edge of "deadly" and a reasonably boss fight. Also, for the main point of the thread, one of the party members having GWM/SS would be helpful.

Your party has played previous adventures and acquired magic items randomly generated and, over time, acquired an array of items to choose from. You can choose 1 very rare items and 2 rare items. You can replace each rare item with 2 uncommon items. Probably throws the game into your favor even more.

I won't modify the Lich's statblock, but please don't study the statblock. If you have certain aspects memorized, that's fine, but don't go searching for perfect counters beyond common lich knowledge.

The lich is in her massive throne room, awaiting your arrival for the final battle. She will have predicted your arrival and your party knows for a fact that she has been scrying on them throughout their adventure. She doesn't know everything, but she's done her research on your party. The battle will start as soon as the party enters and the throne is roughly 150' from the door. Unfortunately, it would be ToTM, but distance tracking will be a thing.
Also, if its against the rules, I'd be happy to make a PBP thread instead and we can come back to discuss the results. This offer is extended to everyone, btw.

But doing this exercise isn't evidence of anything one way or another. Showing that it comes up when fighting 1 enemy, in 1 specific encounter, with 1 specific party means next to nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Don't get me wrong I think it could be a fun exercise, but not particularly meaningful.

[stoutstien]

But doing this exercise isn't evidence of anything one way or another. Showing that it comes up when fighting 1 enemy, in 1 specific encounter, with 1 specific party means next to nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Don't get me wrong I think it could be a fun exercise, but not particularly meaningful.

Aye. I'm more interested in how the
PHB only stereotypical party of halfling thief, human devotion pally, dwarf life cleric, and elf evoker would do assuming they are structured and played halfway realistically. For example the pally taking PAM/GWM because they spent to much time on optimization forums, the cleric is actively trying to use divine strike, the rouge spends at least one type of action trying to *yoink* something, and the wizard is scared to get within arm's reach of anything.

[Valorant]

I am saying they're overestimated, but decent. They should definitely be held as "good feats" but I'm not convinced we can safely put a ribbon and bow on the whole -5, +10 aspects of the spell.

If you can cast Heroes' Feast before a dragon fight, good on you. It may take a little preparation ahead of time, though. Making the material component takes roughly 100 days so you hopefully stocked up on downtime and didn't use it day 1 of the 3 day adventure.

Which is a point: Smart enemies are going to smart. Played well and given a reasonable chance to display their abilities, most creatures are going to be completely disruptive to your party's tactics unless you're overly prepared or the DM makes the enemy a fool.

Your level 18 Party is fighting a Lich. Your Paladin has a +1 in Constitution (used all ASI's on CHA and STR, plus one for GWM). Liches know Paladins are very dangerous, they cast Frostbolt on the Paladin every turn with Legendary Action. The Paladin has 121.5 HP. They're speed is reduced due to Frostbolt and I would never start a lich in melee distance, even with haste. If they still somehow get in melee, use Paralyzing Touch. If they don't get in, cast Power Word Kill. The Paladin has taken 54 frost damage and within PWK range.


Dude that is pure metagaming. And any decent build Paladin has +2 to con and +5 aura, thats min +7 without Res (con), amulet of health or anything else. And we dont even count multiclass builds. And it's just one attack with disadvantages. Hasted vengeance Paladin on level 18 has 5 attacks. Never start at melee distance? He has Pegasus with 180 ft flying speed, misty step and his own hasted speed. What do you even talk about? Power word kill? One cleric in party is enough to Death Ward every team member, and many classes know this spell. And who cares about power word kill in level 18 party? Lich will die in 2 turns anyway Vs level 18 party and spells like revivify are cheap as hell. Not to mention your power word kill is laugh at best for level 18 party wizard who could solo lich With his Sim without issue. Hell he can just counterspell that if he wants.

One anti magic field from cleric and your lich is just skeleton with too much hp waiting to be smacked by party melee. Few parties I had been in killed lich on level 9-10 and yes sometimes with some death but revivify is there. Also liches love to be inside fog cloud I can tell you that.

I have no idea what are you talking about. There is no single official enemy in 5e who could win Vs optimized level 18 party unless players are total noobs and DM metagames/cheats.

[Frogreaver]

Aye. I'm more interested in how the
PHB only stereotypical party of halfling thief, human devotion pally, dwarf life cleric, and elf evoker would do assuming they are structured and played halfway realistically. For example the pally taking PAM/GWM because they spent to much time on optimization forums, the cleric is actively trying to use divine strike, the rouge spends at least one type of action trying to *yoink* something, and the wizard is scared to get within arm's reach of anything.

I get that. But, I wouldn't consider GWM on a Devotion Paladin to be a particularly optimized choice though.

If the point you want to illustrate is that GWM is recommended for characters that it doesn't benefit much then I think that's a good test party. But I think we already know the conclusion.

[Asisreo1]

Did not see this mentioned in the thread (may of missed it); have you considered that you will not always be fighting a single CR appropriate enemy? A four player level 11 party may very well face three enemies of CR 5 - the AC of these enemies will likely be a fair bit lower, which improves the lot of GWM/SS.

In fact, I would say the common encounter is not a single CR appropriate enemy.
Multiple enemies, I feel, make the situation worse for the players. The more enemies, the more opportunities they have to debuff or grant disadvantage to the party.

This is going into the theory of bounded accuracy. Even effective AC is kept within a relatively small range compared to past editions or other games that use AC.

What's important, though, is that most creatures have their defensive CR bolstered by having a higher average AC than their chart would suggest, in exchange for their HP. Most creatures, even at low levels, have abilities that increase their effective AC or simply grant disadvantage. Giant Snakes restrict. Wolves Prone. Kuo-Toa uses their nets. If you notice, almost none of these creatures have the HP required for their CR or even defensive CR, yet most have the effective AC.

All this to say: even multiple low CR creatures can make GWM/SS not worth using at all times.

But doing this exercise isn't evidence of anything one way or another. Showing that it comes up when fighting 1 enemy, in 1 specific encounter, with 1 specific party means next to nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Don't get me wrong I think it could be a fun exercise, but not particularly meaningful.


Aye. I'm more interested in how the
PHB only stereotypical party of halfling thief, human devotion pally, dwarf life cleric, and elf evoker would do assuming they are structured and played halfway realistically. For example the pally taking PAM/GWM because they spent to much time on optimization forums, the cleric is actively trying to use divine strike, the rouge spends at least one type of action trying to *yoink* something, and the wizard is scared to get within arm's reach of anything.
The encounter is evidence. It will be a good example to analyze the overall points of combat against a higher CR enemy.

I can't force you to try, but writing it off as useless before we even got a chance to try it is unscientific. We'll have to keep debating with nothing backing us up other than hearsay. I'm motivated to put words to action and pen to paper. I'm confident enough to give every tool I can reasonably give that a properly designed combat encounter can show just how tricky it is to gain advantage and avoid disadvantage.

Dude that is pure metagaming. And any decent build Paladin has +2 to con and +5 aura, thats min +7 without Res (con), amulet of health or anything else. And we dont even count multiclass builds. And it's just one attack with disadvantages. Hasted vengeance Paladin on level 18 has 5 attacks. Never start at melee distance? He has Pegasus with 180 ft flying speed, misty step and his own hasted speed. What do you even talk about? Power word kill? One cleric in party is enough to Death Ward every team member, and many classes know this spell. And who cares about power word kill in level 18 party? Lich will die in 2 turns anyway Vs level 18 party and spells like revivify are cheap as hell. Not to mention your power word kill is laugh at best for level 18 party wizard who could solo lich With his Sim without issue. Hell he can just counterspell that if he wants.

One anti magic field from cleric and your lich is just skeleton with too much hp waiting to be smacked by party melee. Few parties I had been in killed lich on level 9-10 and yes always with some death but revivify is there. Also liches love to be inside fog cloud I can tell you that.

I have no idea what are you talking about. There is no single official enemy in 5e who could win Vs well optimized level 18 party unless players are total noobs and DM metagames.
I could go on about how I could counter this arrangement, but instead, I'd rather actually play it out just to show how difficult a fight like that truly is.

[stoutstien]

I get that. But, I wouldn't consider GWM on a Devotion Paladin to be a particularly optimized choice though.

If the point you want to illustrate is that GWM is recommended for characters that it doesn't benefit much then I think that's a good test party. But I think we already know the conclusion.

Aye. I don't GWM is a particularly optimized choice for most paladins but it is a popular meme build and PHB limit prevents stuff like just creating a death funnel by keeping the lich cornered while your celestial spirit takes chunks out of it.

Lack of mobility in the kit limits them to trying to do to much via spell casting. I would think a really old super intelligent lich would notice it's own range limitations and address it with a better spell selection so they don't have the "more dangerous up close but lack the staying power to make it useful" issue.
I'm away from any source books ATM but if I recall they have 2 or 3 teleport spells and that's about it. I know I remember they have less than 150 HP and all it takes is they one reaction/ counter spell chain to work in the parties favor to nuke them.

They really need allies to create a challenge/ encounter but that's solo fights in a nutshell for 5e.

[Ertwin]

Personally I just take sharpshooter for the ignore cover, and shoot people at 600ft with no disadvantage. Most the time I forget the -5/+10 even exists.

[Tanarii]

If the point you want to illustrate is that GWM is recommended for characters that it doesn't benefit much then I think that's a good test party. But I think we already know the conclusion.


Aye. I don't GWM is a particularly optimized choice for most paladins but it is a popular meme build and PHB limit prevents stuff like just creating a death funnel by keeping the lich cornered while your celestial spirit takes chunks out of it.
The reason it's not as good on a Paladin is opportunity cost. Getting to Str 20 / Con 20 with 5 ASIs already means being stuck with a Con 12 for many races with standard array. Popular builds like PAM/GWM either depend on lucky ability score rolls, or Point Buy and ultimately sacrificing Cha or Con. Some folks are willing to play a Cha 14-16 Paladin and have the feats and Str and maybe a bit of Con and call it a day. Others aren't. It's still a great choice though, power-wise, because Paladin damage boosts through smite are chosen on hit and limited resource, so they don't apply to base-damage assumptions for determining AC when to use.

Barbarians are the ones where in theorycraft it's effectively an automatic pick in a feats allowed game. Because of Reckless attack, which you can effectively assume is 'always on', the feat is superior to an ASI being spent on anything else, for damage enhancement purposes. In the rare cases when a player doesn't RA, they'll just have to put a little more thought in to if they GWM or not.

And obviously it's a solid choice for any Fighter. With GWM and on paper, at level 11 plus, they can even afford to sacrifice an attack to Shove an enemy prone and the remaining two attacks will do more damage.

[Frogreaver]

The encounter is evidence. It will be a good example to analyze the overall points of combat against a higher CR enemy.

I can't force you to try, but writing it off as useless before we even got a chance to try it is unscientific. We'll have to keep debating with nothing backing us up other than hearsay. I'm motivated to put words to action and pen to paper. I'm confident enough to give every tool I can reasonably give that a properly designed combat encounter can show just how tricky it is to gain advantage and avoid disadvantage.



I don't find your argument is persuasive, and I've noted my concerns with taking a single run through of a single encounter of a single group of characters.

That said, you really want to do this exercise and so I accept the challenge. I will post a party shortly. Any additional rules I need to abide by when creating the party other than what was posted before?

Also, what if any prebuffing is allowed? Things that last a min? 10 min? 1 hour? 8 hours? a day?

[stoutstien]

The reason it's not as good on a Paladin is opportunity cost. Getting to Str 20 / Con 20 with 5 ASIs already means being stuck with a Con 12 for many races with standard array. Popular builds like PAM/GWM either depend on lucky ability score rolls, or Point Buy and ultimately sacrificing Cha or Con. Some folks are willing to play a Cha 14-16 Paladin and have the feats and Str and maybe a bit of Con and call it a day. Others aren't. It's still a great choice though, power-wise, because Paladin damage boosts through smite are chosen on hit and limited resource, so they don't apply to base-damage assumptions for determining AC when to use.

Barbarians are the ones where in theorycraft it's effectively an automatic pick in a feats allowed game. Because of Reckless attack, which you can effectively assume is 'always on', the feat is superior to an ASI being spent on anything else, for damage enhancement purposes. In the rare cases when a player doesn't RA, they'll just have to put a little more thought in to if they GWM or not.

And obviously it's a solid choice for any Fighter. With GWM and on paper, at level 11 plus, they can even afford to sacrifice an attack to Shove an enemy prone and the remaining two attacks will do more damage.

I don't think it really matters which class you would use in the scenario against the lich because it doesn't have the lifespan to make that big of difference between using SS/GWM or not. It's "active defense" that would theoretically give it more life is too susceptible to simple tactics like dispel magic and most parties at that level are more than capable of dealing enough damage to any generic wizard-like NPC in the normal 1-3 rounds range.

Maybe if you are more focused on breaking concentration via single instances of damage but even then the lich in a box isnt helpful in trying to show that the feats are overrated.

[Pex]

The reason it's not as good on a Paladin is opportunity cost. Getting to Str 20 / Con 20 with 5 ASIs already means being stuck with a Con 12 for many races with standard array. Popular builds like PAM/GWM either depend on lucky ability score rolls, or Point Buy and ultimately sacrificing Cha or Con. Some folks are willing to play a Cha 14-16 Paladin and have the feats and Str and maybe a bit of Con and call it a day. Others aren't. It's still a great choice though, power-wise, because Paladin damage boosts through smite are chosen on hit and limited resource, so they don't apply to base-damage assumptions for determining AC when to use.

Barbarians are the ones where in theorycraft it's effectively an automatic pick in a feats allowed game. Because of Reckless attack, which you can effectively assume is 'always on', the feat is superior to an ASI being spent on anything else, for damage enhancement purposes. In the rare cases when a player doesn't RA, they'll just have to put a little more thought in to if they GWM or not.

And obviously it's a solid choice for any Fighter. With GWM and on paper, at level 11 plus, they can even afford to sacrifice an attack to Shove an enemy prone and the remaining two attacks will do more damage.

Despite what errata says, some tables do play great weapon style works on smite damage. In those cases great weapon master isn't needed. Even if you play by errata Paladin damage is still based on smites. They need/want to hit. Any penalty to hit is bad. Nothing stops a Paladin player taking Great Weapon Master if he wants it. Have fun. I don't find it a good fit.

[Asisreo1]

I don't find your argument is persuasive, and I've noted my concerns with taking a single run through of a single encounter of a single group of characters.

That said, you really want to do this exercise and so I accept the challenge. I will post a party shortly. Any additional rules I need to abide by when creating the party other than what was posted before?

Also, what if any prebuffing is allowed? Things that last a min? 10 min? 1 hour? 8 hours? a day?

Pre-buff as you please if you allow the lich to prebuff just before the fight. Use the Standard Array rather than Point Buy or Rolling. Otherwise, everything should be fine. (Hopefully I didn't shoot myself in the foot by forgetting something).

I should give the context of the throne room, too.

The room is 150ft x 45ft. Along the length of the room, it has 2 rows of 4 pillars each, the pillars providing full cover. They are located 30ft apart from each other and the far walls, while being 10ft away from the long walls. Hmmm...https://i.imgur.com/b1hEnMK.jpeg
This is what I mean. Each square represents 15ft and while the P seems to be 15ft from the walls, they are actually 10. The throne is in the back of the room against the wall. There's an elevation in the room with a small pulpit at the throne, but its negligible.

The room is brightly lit from end-to-end via magic.

If I was making a custom lich with behind-the-screen workings, I would agree that this exercise wouldn't mean much. However, I'm much more in-the-dark than you are. I don't get to think of any strategies until you've had your party formation down. Your party definitely has more information than I would have given them personally.

[Tanarii]

Maybe if you are more focused on breaking concentration via single instances of damage but even then the lich in a box isnt helpful in trying to show that the feats are overrated.I wasn't thinking about specific scenarios. More about how they generally tend to be overrated in paladin online builds. Which I agree they are a little bit.


Despite what errata says, some tables do play great weapon style works on smite damage. In those cases great weapon master isn't needed. Even if you play by errata Paladin damage is still based on smites. They need/want to hit. Any penalty to hit is bad. Nothing stops a Paladin player taking Great Weapon Master if he wants it. Have fun. I don't find it a good fit.How GWF works isn't really relevant on deciding if GWM has value or not on a Paladin. Smites are still an on-hit limited resource. In other words, they just get piled on whenever do get the hit in, so their addition to the DPR of a character isn't really factored through the -25% to hit. If you're in a situation where you really need to blow the slot for it this round, then you just choose not to take the -5 to hit. But if you're looking at DPR across an adventuring day, it only factors in if somehow they total number of slots expended during the adventuring day decreases due to kisses. Unlikely.

[Frogreaver]

Pre-buff as you please if you allow the lich to prebuff just before the fight. Use the Standard Array rather than Point Buy or Rolling. Otherwise, everything should be fine. (Hopefully I didn't shoot myself in the foot by forgetting something).

I should give the context of the throne room, too.

The room is 150ft x 45ft. Along the length of the room, it has 2 rows of 4 pillars each, the pillars providing full cover. They are located 30ft apart from each other and the far walls, while being 10ft away from the long walls. Hmmm...https://i.imgur.com/b1hEnMK.jpeg
This is what I mean. Each square represents 15ft and while the P seems to be 15ft from the walls, they are actually 10. The throne is in the back of the room against the wall. There's an elevation in the room with a small pulpit at the throne, but its negligible.

The room is brightly lit from end-to-end via magic.

If I was making a custom lich with behind-the-screen workings, I would agree that this exercise wouldn't mean much. However, I'm much more in-the-dark than you are. I don't get to think of any strategies until you've had your party formation down. Your party definitely has more information than I would have given them personally.

I wanted to keep things fairly basic, so not tons of multiclassing. Only multiclass is a Barbarian/Rogue build I'd used in the past and really enjoyed. I'll do standard array. Magic items and stat/feat allocation I've still got to do. And feel free to prebuff the Lich, I would expect no less.

SS+CBE Battlemaster Fighter
Life Cleric
Totem Barbarian 5/Swashbuckler Rogue 11
Wizard (either evoker or abjuration - nothing fancy)

In fact, besides the single classed wizard, i've played versions of all these characters before (albeit at lower levels).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

It scales the same as all the other martial damage: through extra attacks. +10 damage on 1-4, +20 on 5-10, +30 on 11-19 and +40 on 20 with additional +10 from bonus action attack.

But in another way it inversely scales. As the (non-power attack) damage goes up it becomes less and less beneficial to take the penalty. And the (non-power attack) damage does go up in numerous ways: Attack stat, magic weapon, spells, character abilities. This is really character and party dependent, but like HAM this is one of those feats that may get less mileage as characters level.

Obviously, your example is a Fighter where abilities and spells that enhance damage per hit are limited and more than 1 extra attack is available so generally these feats make more sense.

[stoutstien]

Anyone willing to run my PHB party? I'm AFBs and the idea of running 4 PCs from memory sounds like a headache.

On hang on I have an idea. 4 champion fighters. 2 ranged 2 melee. Give me a few I think I could pull them out once I find a piece of paper not already covered in scribbling.

[Valorant]

.

I could go on about how I could counter this arrangement, but instead, I'd rather actually play it out just to show how difficult a fight like that truly is.

That fight is absolutely not difficult at all. Seriously I must have been playing different system for last yesrs... Lich for level 18 party is s joke. 3 liches I would consider a challenge worth party time.You know what - I am on vacation now for few more days. Make encounter with lich on foundry or roll20. I will set up with you with level 18 party, fairy typical one and I will kill your lich in 2 turns. Guaranteed. Send me PM if you are up to it. Hell I could solo him but Iets go for party, why not.

[Asisreo1]

That fight is absolutely not difficult at all. Seriously I must have been playing different system for last yesrs... Lich for level 18 party is s joke. 3 liches I would consider a challenge worth party time.You know what - I am on vacation now for few more days. Make encounter with lich on foundry or roll20. I will set up with you with level 18 party, fairy typical one and I will kill your lich in 2 turns. Guaranteed. Send me PM if you are up to it. Hell I could solo him but Iets go for party, why not.
My arrangement was intended for level 16 players. I can do the Level 18 arrangement if you want, but rather than 1 very rare and 2 rare items, you can give 1 very rare and 2 uncommon items to each player.

[Frogreaver]

The Contenders (Level 16)

Variant Human (CBE) Battlemaster Fighter

Starting Stats
15+1 dex
14 con
13+1 wis
12 int
10 cha
8 str

ASI's
Level 4 = Sharpshooter
Level 6 = +2 Dex
Level 8 = +2 Dex
Level 12 = Resilient Wisdom
Level 14 = +2 Con
Level 16 = +2 Con

Final Stats
20 Dex
18 Con
15 Wis
12 Int
10 Cha
8 str

HP = 10+6*15 +16*4 = 164 HP

Hill Dwarf Life Cleric

Starting Stats
15+1 wis
14 dex
13+2 con
10 cha
12 str
8 int

ASI's
Level 4 = Resilient Con
Level 8 = +2 Wis
Level 12 = +2 Wis
Level 16 = +2 Con

Final Stats
20 Wis
18 Con
14 Dex
12 Str
10 cha
8 Int

HP = 8+5*15 +16*4 +1*16 = 163 HP

Totem Barbarian 5/Swashbuckler Rogue 11
Variant Human Sentinel

Starting Stats
13+1 str
14 dex
15+1 con
10 wis
12 cha
8 int

ASI's
Barbarain 4 = +2 Con
Rogue 4 = +2 Con
Rogue 8 = Resilient Wisdom

Final Stats
20 Con
14 Str
14 Dex
12 Cha
11 wis
8 str

HP = 12+7*15 +16*5 = 197 HP

Goblin Evoker Wizard
15+1 int
13+2 con
14 dex
12 wis
10 cha
8 str

ASI's
Level 4 = Resilient Con
Level 8 = +2 Int
Level 12 = +2 Int
Level 16 = +2 Con

Final Stats
20 Int
18 Con
14 Dex
12 Wis
10 Cha
8 Str

HP = 12+4*15 +16*4 = 130 HP

I'll add spells and magic items next. Then I'll be ready.

[Asisreo1]

Ah, one more thing before we start: you're not allowed to leave the room willingly.

[Jerrykhor]

So if the Lich wins, whats the conclusion? That the -5/+10 feats can't help you beat a Lich and therefore is overrated?

[Valorant]

So if the Lich wins, whats the conclusion? That the -5/+10 feats can't help you beat a Lich and therefore is overrated?

That someone heavy overestimated how long 140 hp of lich can last Vs lvl 16 party.

[Tanarii]

But in another way it inversely scales. As the (non-power attack) damage goes up it becomes less and less beneficial to take the penalty. And the (non-power attack) damage does go up in numerous ways: Attack stat, magic weapon, spells, character abilities.
Attack stat increases the AC you use it against faster than the bonus to damage from raising the attack stat decreases it. By half a point, without disadvantage.

[Frogreaver]

Ah, one more thing before we start: you're not allowed to leave the room willingly.

No problem. Now all I have left is magic items.

Cleric Spell List

Cantrips
Sacred Flame
Toll the Dead
Guidance
Thaumaturgy
Light

Subclass Spells
Bless
Cure Wounds
Lesser Resoration
Spiritual Weapon
Beacon of Hop
Revivify
Death Ward
Guardian of Faith
Mass Cure Wounds
Raise Dead

Level 1 Spells
Healing Word
Sanctuary
Command

Level 2 Spells
Aid
Blindness/Deafness
Silence
Prayer of Healing

Level 3 Spells
Dispel Magic
Sprit Guardians
Mass Healing Word
Remove Curse

Level 4 Spells
Aura of Purity
Banishment
Divination
Freedom of Movement

Level 5 Spells
Commune
Summon Celestial
Greater Restoration

Level 6 Spells
True Seeing
Heal

Level 8 Spells
Holy Aura

Wizard Spell List

Cantrips
ray of frost
firebolt
prestidigation
minor illusion
mage hand

Level 1 Spells
Shield
Absorb Elements
Magic Missile
Mage Armor

Level 2 Spells
Blindness Deafness
Invisibility
Misty Step

Level 3 Spells
Fireball
Counterspell
Haste
Remove Curse
Dispel Magic

Level 4 Spells
Banishment
Dimension Door

Level 5 Spells
Hold Monster
Wall of Force

Level 6 Spells
True Seeing

Level 7 Spells
Crown of Stars
Forcecage
Teleport

Level 8 Spells
Feeblemind

[Asisreo1]

So if the Lich wins, whats the conclusion? That the -5/+10 feats can't help you beat a Lich and therefore is overrated?
Honestly, I'm not sure the Lich wins or lose, but she probably loses.

But the point of the exercise isn't "win or lose." The point is two-fold: that -5, +10 calculations aren't reliable enough for automatic DPR calculations and must-have build recommendations, and that combats are often more difficult when the DM fights smarter rather than always going for the most direct tactics.

[Valorant]

Honestly, I'm not sure the Lich wins or lose, but she probably loses.

But the point of the exercise isn't "win or lose." The point is two-fold: that -5, +10 calculations aren't reliable enough for automatic DPR calculations and must-have build recommendations, and that combats are often more difficult when the DM fights smarter rather than always going for the most direct tactics.

No matter how smart DM is: nobody, nor DM or players beat king and queen of DnD:

Math and Statistic.

[Frogreaver]

Characters are now completed. I've posted magic items below. What's the next step?

Magic Items

Barbarian Magic Items
Cloak of Protection - uncommon
Ring of Protectoin - rare
Gauntlets of Ogre Power Uncommon
+3 shortsword - very rare

Cleric Magic Items
Cloak of Protection - uncommon
Ring of Protectoin - rare
Ring of Spell Storing (Counterspell, shield, absorb elements) - rare

Wizard Magic Items
Cloak of Protection - uncommon
Ring of Protectoin - rare
Ring of Spell Storing (Revivify, Healing Word, Healing Word) - rare

Fighter Magic Items
Cloak of Protection - uncommon
+3 Hand Crossbow - very rare
Ring of Spell Storing (Counterspell, Shield, Shield) - rare
Googles of Night

[Asisreo1]

Well, we can start the combat. I do want to say that we'll use the honor system for the dice rolls. And I already established that the fight will be ToTM. Just notify your positions and actions. If you attack with extra attacks, go ahead and roll all the attack and damage rolls at once and I'll let you know what the lich does if she does anything.

Now, I'll go ahead and introduce the scene:
You enter a large throne room. The decor is lavish yet the air is foul and thick. The marble pillars align to the end of the room, where you see a throne raised slightly on a pulpit. A woman's voice from the end of the room speaks. She speaks a proper tone, almost like a princess. Yet the venom in her words betray her act.

"Welcome to your death, foolish mortals. You should congratulate yourselves. You've managed to make Death Incarnate furious with your actions, and you get to die by her hands. Don't worry, though, I'll be sure you'll have the honor of being the first to have their soul consumed by my new phylactery once its complete." You can determine based on her voice that she's positioned on the throne. You can also tell that she had just stood up, probably to get into a proper fighting stance.

Her initiative:

[11]+3 = 14.

(btw, my format for this exercise will be [dice roll result] + modifier = total. With advantage, its [dice1][dice2] + modifier = total w/ higher dice. Vice versa with disadvantage.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Well, we can start the combat. I do want to say that we'll use the honor system for the dice rolls. And I already established that the fight will be ToTM. Just notify your positions and actions. If you attack with extra attacks, go ahead and roll all the attack and damage rolls at once and I'll let you know what the lich does if she does anything.

Now, I'll go ahead and introduce the scene:
You enter a large throne room. The decor is lavish yet the air is foul and thick. The marble pillars align to the end of the room, where you see a throne raised slightly on a pulpit. A woman's voice from the end of the room speaks. She speaks a proper tone, almost like a princess. Yet the venom in her words betray her act.

"Welcome to your death, foolish mortals. You should congratulate yourselves. You've managed to make Death Incarnate furious with your actions, and you get to die by her hands. Don't worry, though, I'll be sure you'll have the honor of being the first to have their soul consumed by my new phylactery once its complete." You can determine based on her voice that she's positioned on the throne. You can also tell that she had just stood up, probably to get into a proper fighting stance.

Her initiative:

[11]+3 = 14.

(btw, my format for this exercise will be [dice roll result] + modifier = total. With advantage, its [dice1][dice2] + modifier = total w/ higher dice. Vice versa with disadvantage.

Perhaps this isn't the place for the mock fight?

On topic, Sharpshooter is better than Heavy Weapon Master. 100% because of Archery Fighting Style. From what I recall, Archery got the +2 bonus to combat half cover, such as that granted by a target being blocked by another in melee combat.

Unfortunately, most DMs ignore this rule and let them fire freely into creature granted cover, and the feat itself negates the benefits of cover, making the FS a no brainer.

[Asisreo1]

Perhaps this isn't the place for the mock fight?

On topic, Sharpshooter is better than Heavy Weapon Master. 100% because of Archery Fighting Style. From what I recall, Archery got the +2 bonus to combat half cover, such as that granted by a target being blocked by another in melee combat.

Unfortunately, most DMs ignore this rule and let them fire freely into creature granted cover, and the feat itself negates the benefits of cover, making the FS a no brainer.
Then I'll make the PBP in the appropriate thread, thanks.

Also, I do agree that some DMs don't take advantage of all the available benefits of cover, or terrain in-general. Its part of my argument that we almost always assume an incompetent DM in-play when theorycrafting. Like I said, just going prone really disrupts a distant attacker and not a single feat or feature stops that other than gaining advantage somehow.

[Asisreo1]

Here's the link to the post:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?636395-Lich-Mock-Trial&p=25193935#post25193935

[Frogreaver]

Here's the link to the post:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?636395-Lich-Mock-Trial&p=25193935#post25193935

Thanks, I've given my initiatives and have one question about distances before the Wizard goes.

[KorvinStarmast]

Twilight cleric can trivialize frighten, peace cleric can apply bond, clerics can remove frighten, paladins have high Wis rolls and aura. This is team based game. For every mechanic a single enemy has PCs have 3 and more to counter. Dragons are probably easiest Big Bads in game to kill by PCs unless every single player is newbie in game. We have begun to use Heroes' Feast (my bard has it) for most of our adventuring days. We think that it's worth the cost.

Personally I just take sharpshooter for the ignore cover, and shoot people at 600ft with no disadvantage. Most the time I forget the -5/+10 even exists. Yep. Our Rogue(scout) /Ranger (Hunter) MC had a lot of misses due to the -5, but when he hit he hit like a ton of bricks. I did everything I could to get him advantage on hits. (Web's kind of good for that, so is Entangle)

most parties at that level are more than capable of dealing enough damage to any generic wizard-like NPC in the normal 1-3 rounds range. Lich; get up close to them and get it over fast. They have too many weapons. Note for DMs: make sure liches have multiple minion types in play.
Despite what errata says, some tables do play great weapon style works on smite damage. I do because I think that is RAW and it rewards a player's choice.
(The twitter explanation Crawford gave "why are we slowing down play to roll more dice" is a load of pure bollocks).

[Eldariel]

But in another way it inversely scales. As the (non-power attack) damage goes up it becomes less and less beneficial to take the penalty. And the (non-power attack) damage does go up in numerous ways: Attack stat, magic weapon, spells, character abilities. This is really character and party dependent, but like HAM this is one of those feats that may get less mileage as characters level.

Obviously, your example is a Fighter where abilities and spells that enhance damage per hit are limited and more than 1 extra attack is available so generally these feats make more sense.

Aye, the absolute amount of damage bonus scales but the relative value of the bonus decreases. Still, even on level 20 it's a significant chunk of damage for most characters, even if at only 3 attacks for non-Fighter Extra Attackers.