It's Not A Gate

[brian 333]

In several of our recent discussions we have debated aspects of Team Evil's plots involving the last gate. Lately there have been suggestions that Serini's judgement is flawed when she suggested that Xykon being in possession of a gate is preferable to the destruction of the gate.

Only, it's not a gate. A gate can be opened and closed, and there is no indication that once opened, these 'gates' can be closed.

MitD tells us it's not a gate at the very first gate we see, and the Crayons exposition shows what looks like patches as opposed to gates.

This is not a trivial distinction. What it means is that neither Xykon's nor Redcloak's plan will work. No matter how long they play with it, the final result will be that they can threaten to destroy the gate, for whatever mileage they can get from that, or they can destroy the gate and end existence in about ten minutes.

Since it is not a gate it cannot be opened and closed again. That means there can be no examples made of those who defy the gate's controller. Rip off the patch and it's "Game Over, man!" No second chances, and no time to build another patch.

If this is the case, and the comic heavily forshadows this, then Serini knows that TE is wasting its time. And wasting their time appears to be her short term goal.

So long as the good guys don't screw things up, she might waste their time until they turn on each other.

Smart people like complicated things. It makes them feel smart to navigate convoluted plots that lesser folk cannot fathom. Geniuses like things simple. They don't need validation from lesser minds to assure them of their superiority.

If what I have proposed above is anything like Serini's plan, it is elegantly simple.

[Precure]

If it's not a gate, why the people who build it called it a gate?

[Fyraltari]

Xykon's plan is to use the Ritual to enslave the Snarl to his will (the Ritual doesn't actually do that).

Redcloak's plan is to use the Ritual to give the Dark One the ability to move the Gate (and the Rift within) to the plane of his choice at his leisure so he can threaten the other gods with it.

Neither plan requires the Gate to be able to close so I don't see why you think this would matter to them.

[JNAProductions]

I think you're assigning too much significance to the title. I mean, a Google Chromecast might be made by Google, and it does cast things to screens, but it's not made of chrome.
My Pavilion Laptop has nothing really to do with being a summerhouse.
French Fries originated in Belgium, according to Google.
Armor Of Invulnerability, in 5E, does not make the wearer invulnerable to all harm.

Basically, they're referred to as Gates, because that's their title.

[hroþila]

Proto-Germanic *gatą meant "hole, opening", as in Dutch and Icelandic gat. It's an etymological gate, i.e. the best kind of gate.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Proto-Germanic *gatą meant "hole, opening", as in Dutch and Icelandic gat. It's an etymological gate, i.e. the best kind of gate.

Made out of insects?

[hroþila]

Made out of insects?
You're thinking of entomology. Etymology is the study of the causes of vomiting.

[brian 333]

Xykon's plan is to use the Ritual to enslave the Snarl to his will (the Ritual doesn't actually do that).

Redcloak's plan is to use the Ritual to give the Dark One the ability to move the Gate (and the Rift within) to the plane of his choice at his leisure so he can threaten the other gods with it.

Neither plan requires the Gate to be able to close so I don't see why you think this would matter to them.

If it cannot be closed it is useless for either purpose. A threat you can never act upon is a bluff, so what do you do when someone calls your bluff?

Unleashing The Snarl is a bad plan if you want to rule the world because there will be no world to rule. Control of The Snarl requires that it be locked up again after each use.

Similarly, it's a bluff that the gods will certainly call if it's ever used on them. Without the ability to lock it up again, their only course is to salvage what they can and hide untii it's all over. At that point, even if TDO is still around, which will be unlikely given his desire to control The Snarl, why would the gods invite him to help build the next world?

Neither the gates nor The Snarl are the goal of the comic, and as the author said in a bit of accidental foreshadowing so long ago, the McGuffin need not even do what the antagonist believes it will do. Its only importance is that the protagonist will try to prevent its capture.

[JNAProductions]

If it cannot be closed it is useless for either purpose. A threat you can never act upon is a bluff, so what do you do when someone calls your bluff?

Unleashing The Snarl is a bad plan if you want to rule the world because there will be no world to rule. Control of The Snarl requires that it be locked up again after each use.

Similarly, it's a bluff that the gods will certainly call if it's ever used on them. Without the ability to lock it up again, their only course is to salvage what they can and hide untii it's all over. At that point, even if TDO is still around, which will be unlikely given his desire to control The Snarl, why would the gods invite him to help build the next world?

Neither the gates nor The Snarl are the goal of the comic, and as the author said in a bit of accidental foreshadowing so long ago, the McGuffin need not even do what the antagonist believes it will do. Its only importance is that the protagonist will try to prevent its capture.

But what do Xykon and Redcloak know?
What does The Dark One know?

They're likely working with incomplete info. Heck, we're probably working with incomplete info!

[brian 333]

You're thinking of entomology. Etymology is the study of the causes of vomiting.

I thought entomology was the study of anthropomorphic trees.

Huh.

[Fyraltari]

If it cannot be closed it is useless for either purpose. A threat you can never act upon is a bluff, so what do you do when someone calls your bluff?

Unleashing The Snarl is a bad plan if you want to rule the world because there will be no world to rule. Control of The Snarl requires that it be locked up again after each use.

Similarly, it's a bluff that the gods will certainly call if it's ever used on them. Without the ability to lock it up again, their only course is to salvage what they can and hide untii it's all over. At that point, even if TDO is still around, which will be unlikely given his desire to control The Snarl, why would the gods invite him to help build the next world?

Neither the gates nor The Snarl are the goal of the comic, and as the author said in a bit of accidental foreshadowing so long ago, the McGuffin need not even do what the antagonist believes it will do. Its only importance is that the protagonist will try to prevent its capture.

1234567890



So I've been thinking about Thor/Durkon's plan make a truce with Redcloak so they can repair the rifts and keep the Snarl from destroying the world. It's a hard plan, because it requires Redcloak to abandon his Sunk Cost Fallacy, but theory Durkon could offer peace and teritory to the goblinkind and get Redcloak to cooperate in exchange for it, assuming they have turned Xykon into an immobile pile of bones by then.

But I have a problem with this plan: what is stopping Redcloak from having his cake and eating it?

Let's say Durkon just told Redcloak about the plan (RC accepted to listen to him because he's smart enough not to refuse tactical intel). Redcloak can then just shrug, do the ritual to teleport the Snarl, enslave the gods, and then get them to repair the rifts along with him. Now the threat of the Snarl is contained and the Dark One rules everything forever. And the gods can't even destroy the world if they see RC is about to do that, because they have an agreement not to do it unless the Godsmoot decides for it (and the Godsmoot is currently on indefinite hold).

The only way I could see RC accepting Durkon's proposal is if he's already defeated, about to die, and The OOTS offers it as an alternative to dieing and never seeing The Plan come into fruition. But that's way less exciting than the epic diplomacy feat I wanna see Dukon pull off.

Any ideas?
There is some misunderstanding of the mechanics involved here.

1.) If the Dark One succeeds at the ritual, he gains the ability to move the Gate. If he does this and moves the Gate to, say, Valhalla, then the Snarl pops out of the Gate and kills the gods on Valhalla. Then it destroys all of Valhalla until it's a big empty void-plane. And then...nothing. That's it. The Dark One does not have a way to put the Snarl back into the prison after he's unleashed it. The Snarl just lives on Valhalla now, or what's left of it.

2.) The Gate connects the prison to another plane. When the Dark One moves it, it now connects the prison to a different plane. So after the Snarl is unleashed on Plane 1, then the Dark One moves the Gate to Plane 2, it now connects the prison to Plane 2—it does not connect Planes 1 and 2.

3.) But that doesn't really matter because once the Snarl is free on any plane other than its prison, then literally any planar gateway could potentially allow it to change planes. The Dark One would cease to have any control over its location, and in fact it would be far more likely that some of the evil gods would start spamming big flashy portals to the Dark One's domain until the Snarl took the bait and went through.

4.) Alternately, once any Northern god dies, the deadlock at the Godsmoot is broken and the vote resolves (votes from dead gods don't count). Even if the world was "saved" they would be free to immediately take a second vote to destroy the world—or even just to kill all goblins—depriving the Dark One of his followers and ultimately killing him over the long term.

The Snarl is like a nuclear bomb. You can get a lot of leverage out of owning a nuclear bomb, because no one wants it dropped on them. But if everyone knows you only own one and then you use it on someone...then everyone left knows you don't have it anymore. Sucks for your one target, but it won't end well for you, either.

That's why the Dark One's actual plan is to use the threat of moving the Gate to extract concessions from the other gods and deter preemptive strikes against his followers. Those concessions will be significantly less than, "All of you be my slaves forever," because at that point, the calculus would change and some of the gods might risk the bomb getting dropped on one of them to end the Dark One's threat to their friends and family.

[Manga Shoggoth]

You're thinking of entomology. Etymology is the study of the causes of vomiting.

Yup, I am once more committing puns. (I tend to refer to my etymological dictionary as The Book of Insects).


I thought entomology was the study of anthropomorphic trees.

...And that's a really good one!

[brian 333]

But what do Xykon and Redcloak know?
What does The Dark One know?

They're likely working with incomplete info. Heck, we're probably working with incomplete info!

Exactly!
Even Thor and Odin are working with incomplete info. I hope Serini has some new clues for us. And I can't wait to learn Laurin's fate, and whatever news that brings to the table.

[RatElemental]

French Fries originated in Belgium, according to Google.


The "french" in french fries refers to the cutting method used to prepare the potatoes.



Similarly, it's a bluff that the gods will certainly call if it's ever used on them. Without the ability to lock it up again, their only course is to salvage what they can and hide untii it's all over. At that point, even if TDO is still around, which will be unlikely given his desire to control The Snarl, why would the gods invite him to help build the next world?


The gods don't want to call that bluff so much that they'll probably destroy the world just to prevent the ritual from being completed. Teleporting the snarl to their outer planes is pretty much game over for the whole multiverse instead of just the prime material.

[Dewin Dwl]

If it's not a gate, why the people who build it called it a gate?

Maybe MitD has been more perceptive than we thought, all along. ("Gate? What gate?")

[brian 333]

The "french" in french fries refers to the cutting method used to prepare the potatoes.



The gods don't want to call that bluff so much that they'll probably destroy the world just to prevent the ritual from being completed. Teleporting the snarl to their outer planes is pretty much game over for the whole multiverse instead of just the prime material.

Exactly. The threat of Redcloak teleporting the gate will get the world, along with its gate, unraveled. RC's plan cannot succeed. Therefore either Serini does not know RCs plan or is very confident it won't result in anyone able to teleport the gate.

[Sir_Norbert]

Isn't it the obvious working assumption that she does not know his plan? The people who do know are Redcloak, Right-Eye (deceased) and Tsukiko (deceased), and I don't see why Redcloak would share his plans with the enemy.

[Timy]

The "french" in french fries refers to the cutting method used to prepare the potatoes.


Well it seems you have very good historical sources to state that without a trace of doubt because with only a few google queries I found that a lot of sources seems to be sure that we don't really know why they are called "French" in the first place ^^.

And yes, it is a really important question which needs to be addressed even if it means high-jacking a thread !

[Quebbster]

Exactly. The threat of Redcloak teleporting the gate will get the world, along with its gate, unraveled. RC's plan cannot succeed. Therefore either Serini does not know RCs plan or is very confident it won't result in anyone able to teleport the gate.
The Plan takes the fact that the world possibly being destroyed into account. The Dark One seems to be pretty OK with that possibility since that would mean he would be involved in the creation of the next world and get more influence that way. Thor doesn't think it will work out that way, but TDO doesn't seem to be aware of that.
From the protagonist's view, the destruction of the world would mean the end of the story. Whether it accomplishes the goal The Dark One wants or not is rather irrelevant to the story we are reading.

[Metastachydium]

Therefore either Serini does not know RCs plan or is very confident it won't result in anyone able to teleport the gate.

So, what you're saying is that Serini's either clueless or dangerously wrong and that somehow makes her a genius?

[brian 333]

So, what you're saying is that Serini's either clueless or dangerously wrong and that somehow makes her a genius?

No. I am saying her plan works in either case.

When RCs ritual fails he will have a very angry Xykon to deal with. That cuts her problem in half.

[hroþila]

Yup, I am once more committing puns. (I tend to refer to my etymological dictionary as The Book of Insects).
I know, I was trying to keep the joke running but no one caught up on it :smallfrown:

[Metastachydium]

No. I am saying her plan works in either case.

Mind you, Serini claims (and we have no reason to disbelieve her because she speaks to bound prisoners whose memories she intends to wipe sooner than later) that she thinks Xykon will get to rule the world if Team Evil captures the Gate. Now, if she believes that Xykon cannot get to control the Snarl as he thinks he can, she also believes that Xykon trying to do so through the Ritual will unleash the Snarl and destroy the world.
In other words, if you're right, Serini's plan is even dumber than it sounds.


When RCs ritual fails he will have a very angry Xykon to deal with. That cuts her problem in half.

1. The Plan depends on the other gods' willingness to comply with Big Purple's demands, but Big Purple and Redcloak know they can't reseal the Rift once it's been opened, and this is factored into the Plan. If the Plan fails, it's not going to fail because of the reason you gave.
2. You shouldn't conflate the Plan with the Ritual. The Ritual is part of the Plan, but the Plan can fail even after the Ritual succeeds. And if the Ritual succeeds, the Gate is shifted out of the Tomb and Serini loses access to it pretty much irrevocably. Once that's done, Redcloak (or even Xykon) dying will not cut her problem in half, because at that point she won't be up against them. She'll be up against a god.
So, again, if you're right, Serini's plan is even dumber than its sounds.

[Fyraltari]

I know, I was trying to keep the joke running but no one caught up on it :smallfrown:

I wanted to reply "no that's [correct] name. Etymology is [definition of another word that sounds similar to etymogy]" but I couldn't find what "the study of the causes of vomiting" was actually called.

[Metastachydium]

I couldn't find what "the study of the causes of vomiting" was actually called.

Emetology. It's called emetology.

[skim172]

Setting aside the semantic argument of what defines a gate - I think your general point is that Team Evil's goal is self-defeating because they cannot utilize the "gate/not-gate" without destroying everything, themselves included - so the only thing they can credibly do is make threats that they cannot fulfill.

{Scrubbed}

If Team Evil gains the ability to flip the off switch on the universe, then they can threaten to do so if their demands are not met. They would indeed employ "MAD".

But, it seems you're saying that you don't think Team Evil would indeed end all existence just because they didn't get their way, so their threats don't have any substance. And that's a very good question. Perhaps that is indeed Serini's plan - give them the Gate, and they won't be able to do anything but make threats. {Scrubbed}

I think you could be right about this being Serini's plan.



That said, there are two things that Serini may not know. First, Redcloak's own plan mentions the contingency of using the Snarl to wipe the slate clean in order to give the Dark One a chance to grant goblinkind a better destiny in the next universe. Thus, Redcloak is not opposed to the possibility of total destruction.

Second, Xykon is entirely psychotic enough and nihilistic enough to decide to kill the Universe, just to prove that he can. At one point, being crowned Dark Emperor of the World might've satisfied him, but I'm not so sure he truly cares about anything anymore. As Redcloak has observed, the only thing Xykon seems to care about anymore is death - and killing the universe could satisfy that interest in a way that nothing else could. Additionally, if Xykon discovers that actually, Redcloak's plan won't give him control of the Gate in the way he promised - then he might not be satisfied with getting a retirement package in Gobbotopia.

So I think both parties of Team Evil might very well be willing to open that Gate/Not-Gate and bring about the end. {Scrubbed}

[Metastachydium]

Setting aside the semantic argument of what defines a gate - I think your general point is that Team Evil's goal is self-defeating because they cannot utilize the "gate/not-gate" without destroying everything, themselves included - so the only thing they can credibly do is make threats that they cannot fulfill.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

If Team Evil gains the ability to flip the off switch on the universe, then they can threaten to do so if their demands are not met. They would indeed employ "MAD".

Emphasis mine. What you call Team Evil here is actually the (Church of )the Dark One. Xykon doesn't know he doesn't get to control the Snarl and he doesn't know it it breaks loose if the Gate is "opened", v.
Xykon: "So by warping the Gate, you can take control of the Snarl. Get it to kill who you want, carry your stuff, do your homework, that sort of thing. (…) With a monster like that at your beck and call, you could conquer the whole world. You wouldn't even need to use it that often, just once or twice." [Emphasis mine.]

[brian 333]

When Xykon learns the truth he's going to be one unhappy respawn-point camper.

[Quebbster]

When Xykon learns the truth he's going to be one unhappy respawn-point camper.

Yes, the story is obviously far from done yet. A lot of issues remain that needs to be resolved.

[Metastachydium]

When Xykon learns the truth he's going to be one unhappy respawn-point camper.

So what? If he learns it after the Ritual is complete, he literally doesn't matter anymore. And that's exactly when he'll learn it, unless someone tells him. Were Serini's plans to work out as, you know, planned, the only people other than Redcloak who kinda-sorta know what the Plan is would be surgically removed from the scene, and would probably forget what they knew. So who's gonna tell Xykon? Redcloak? Or Serini who quite evidently doesn't know there's something to tell? And if she had somehow known all along (which really doesn't seem to be the case), why didn't he tell Xykon already? Nah, man. It just doesn't add up.

[Jason]

Setting aside the semantic argument of what defines a gate - I think your general point is that Team Evil's goal is self-defeating because they cannot utilize the "gate/not-gate" without destroying everything, themselves included - so the only thing they can credibly do is make threats that they cannot fulfill.
However, Red Cloak doesn't know that he can't actually fulfill his threat. He believes that the gods will not destroy the world just to save themselves from the Snarl, and that the Dark One will survive any unleashing of the Snarl and continue to oversee goblin kind in the next world created. He believes these things because he does not have the information Thor gave to Durkon, and he refused to believe anything Durkon said because he doesn't trust dwarves (and it would make all the sacrifices he has made to this point meaningless).


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
{Scrubbed}


Second, Xykon is entirely psychotic enough and nihilistic enough to decide to kill the Universe, just to prove that he can.Is he? He has still shown the ability to restrain himself from killing everyone around him when his overall plan, which he thinks will let him rule the world, is in danger.

[skim172]

However, Red Cloak doesn't know that he can't actually fulfill his threat. He believes that the gods will not destroy the world just to save themselves from the Snarl, and that the Dark One will survive any unleashing of the Snarl and continue to oversee goblin kind in the next world created. He believes these things because he does not have the information Thor gave to Durkon, and he refused to believe anything Durkon said because he doesn't trust dwarves (and it would make all the sacrifices he has made to this point meaningless).
Redcloak can fulfill his threat, in that he would be able to unleash the Snarl. His rationale is faulty, because the Dark One won't survive the transition - but that won't stop him from "pushing the button" if he thinks he has no other choice. I personally suspect that just such moment of truth is set to unfold in the future.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrubbed}

[JNAProductions]

Gonna remind everyone to review the forum rules (https://forums.giantitp.com/announcement.php?a=1), with the current subject of conversation being what it is.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: thread re-opened. Let's keep well away from prohibited topics.

[Precure]

If it's not a gate, why the people who build it called it a gate?

I find it very telling that no one gave an answer to this.

:smallsigh:

[Manga Shoggoth]

I find it very telling that no one gave an answer to this.

Several people have discussed the meaning of the word "gate".

There is another definition of "gate" that you might find interesting in this context: "confine (a pupil or student) to school or college". It might be called a gate because it is gating the Snarl.



Emetology. It's called emetology.

Another for the list!

[KorvinStarmast]

Maybe MitD has been more perceptive than we thought, all along. ("Gate? What gate?") And has been consistent since about strip 0096 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html)


From the protagonist's view, the destruction of the world would mean the end of the story. So would the death of Sir Thumb.


That said, there are two things that Serini may not know. First, Redcloak's own plan mentions the contingency of using the Snarl to wipe the slate clean in order to give the Dark One a chance to grant goblinkind a better destiny in the next universe. Thus, Redcloak is not opposed to the possibility of total destruction.

Second, Xykon is entirely psychotic enough and nihilistic enough to decide to kill the Universe, just to prove that he can. At one point, being crowned Dark Emperor of the World might've satisfied him, but I'm not so sure he truly cares about anything anymore. As Redcloak has observed, the only thing Xykon seems to care about anymore is death - and killing the universe could satisfy that interest in a way that nothing else could. Additionally, if Xykon discovers that actually, Redcloak's plan won't give him control of the Gate in the way he promised - then he might not be satisfied with getting a retirement package in Gobbotopia. He still has his epic level boredom to deal with.
Yes, the story is obviously far from done yet. A lot of issues remain that needs to be resolved. Back to the fish swim in water concept. :smallcool:

[Precure]

Several people have discussed the meaning of the word "gate".

It's still not an answer.

[Fyraltari]

It's still not an answer.

Because The Giant hadn't decided what exactly it was that Xykon was sitting on when he named it and now, he's stuck with the name.

[Precure]

Because The Giant hadn't decided what exactly it was that Xykon was sitting on when he named it and now, he's stuck with the name.

This is a Doylist answer though, and still begs the question why the characters he created named it such a way. Not to mention there is nothing in the story that actually proves that it can't be used as a gate.

[Fyraltari]

This is a Doylist answer though, and still begs the question why the characters he created named it such a way. Not to mention there is nothing in the story that actually proves that it can't be used as a gate.

And suddenly I am reminded of a certain vampire (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html).

[Manga Shoggoth]

This is a Doylist answer though, and still begs the question why the characters he created named it such a way. Not to mention there is nothing in the story that actually proves that it can't be used as a gate.

Is the only thing that will satisfy you the Giant answering the question? Or one of the characters saying it? If so, asking the question is a bit of a waste of time

We have discussed the meaning of the word "gate", with at least two reasons why it might apply as a name. You can't say "I find it very telling that no one gave an answer to this" if you then go on and refuse to accept any answer that is offered to you. We've given possible answers, we just don't know what the real one is.

[littlebum2002]

This is brilliant actually. They finally get to the final gate and Redcloak announces his plans and the MitD says "Gate? What gate?" Frustrated, Redcloak loses his temper and shows him the gate and the MitD says "That's not a gate, just like the thing in Durokan's dungeon wasn't a gate. I kept trying to tell you" and it would eclipse Hilga's arc as the longest time between set up and conclusion of an arc.

[Dion]

If it cannot be closed it is useless for either purpose. A threat you can never act upon is a bluff, so what do you do when someone calls your bluff?


Why? You can’t call the bullet back after a gun is fired, but a gun is still a credible threat.

Sure, if you threaten to shoot a person if they don’t what you want, and they call your bluff, and then you shoot them… then they’re still not doing what you want. I guess they technically win.

But they’re also dead.

[TRH]

This thread seems premised on the notion that brinksmanship is a useless strategy because all bluffs get called. I mean, you can read up on the life of John Dillinger if that's what you think.

[Duncun]

Here is another definition.
An opening to allow passage into or out of an enclosed place.

Therefore it is a gate used to control access to the rift that contains the snarl.

[brian 333]

What it is called in universe or on the forum isn't really important. After all, a rose by any other name would still give you hayfever and infected thorn pricks. Or whatever it is Julie was whining about in that play.

My intent was not to correct the name, but to correct what I see as incorrect assumptions about the structures.

Modern users of the word have a specific object in mind when the word is used, and it appears to me that the comic is clear that the gates, once opened, cannot be simply closed. This implies, to me, a patch. A patch, when ripped off, can make the original damage worse. This happened at Soon's Gate and may have happened at Girard's and the others too.

Of course, there were five people who had exact knowledge of what they are and what they can do. One of them is Serini.

Serini seems to believe allowing the gate to fall into Xykon's hands is preferable to letting OotS 'accidentally' or intentionally destroy it. Rather than suppose an error in judgement by one of the five most succesrful adventurers of her generation, I propose that she knows something I (we) do not. While I have opined on what some of those things might be, I have no particular favorite, other than that it won't and can't be made to do what TE wants it to do.

Even Roy agrees that we don't know enough about the gates. Maybe Serini does.

[TRH]

What it is called in universe or on the forum isn't really important. After all, a rose by any other name would give you hayfever and infected thorn pricks. Or whatever it is Julie was whining about in that play.

My intent was not to correct the name, but to correct what I see as incorrect assumptions about the structures.

Modern users of the word have a specific object in mind when the word is used, and it appears to me that the comic is clear that the gates, once opened, cannot be simply closed. This implies, to me, a patch. A patch, when ripped off, can make the original damage worse. This happened at Soon's Gate and may have happened at Girard's and the otherp

It does seem like your interpretation is consistent with what the Giant's said about it. But that doesn't mean the Plan can't work.

[RatElemental]

Wait, that's what your point is? In that case, yeah, you're right that the genie can't go back in the bottle but you're wrong about that being useless. The entirety of the plan is to give the dark one a nuke he can set off so he can use the threat of doing to to obtain his goals.

There's word of giant on this but I can't find it at the moment, maybe Jasdoif can grace us with his presence.

[TRH]

That quote was posted here already.

[brian 333]

Wait, that's what your point is? In that case, yeah, you're right that the genie can't go back in the bottle but you're wrong about that being useless. The entirety of the plan is to give the dark one a nuke he can set off so he can use the threat of doing to to obtain his goals.

There's word of giant on this but I can't find it at the moment, maybe Jasdoif can grace us with his presence.

I thought I said as much in the first post of this thread.

I will have to reread it and see what I missed.

[TRH]

I thought I said as much in the first post of this thread.

I will have to reread it and see what I missed.

You explicitly said that The Plan was worthless as a result of this.

[brian 333]

You explicitly said that The Plan was worthless as a result of this.

And I believe it is.

The one-shot nuke that gets the guy who pushes the button has 0 value.

You cannot demonstrate it to cow the unimpressed, and you cannot benefit in its aftermath once used.

Dillinger's soap-gun would have been useless in a prior age because it would have looked as harmless as it really was. To be effective it would have to have been something the guard recognized or he would have to have used it to hurt someone.

Both of these things cannot be done in OotS because almost nobody knows about the gates, automatically making any threat of destroying it not a creditable threat, and any demonstration of it would be the last act the demonstrator performs.

"King of Nowhere, submit to me or I shall unleash The Snarl!"

"Oh my gosh! Wait, did he say Kraken? What's a Snarl? Someone show me a Snarl!"

There is an empty threat for you: one that makes you look foolish for uttering it. It's a bluff, and one that will be called more often than not.

[TRH]

And I believe it is.

The one-shot nuke that gets the guy who pushes the button has 0 value.

You cannot demonstrate it to cow the unimpressed, and you cannot benefit im its aftermath once used.

Dillinger's soap-gun would have been useless in a prior age because it would

Well, one factor to add to your consideration. Both Team Evil and the Dark One have an interest in coming off as less rational than the people they're extorting. A perfectly rational and self-preserving individual's bluff might be comfortably called in such circumstances. But if instead of a smooth and coldly calculating operator you've instead got a self-righteous physical teenager who's already sacrificed everything he loves for this, the Joker with magic or a vengeful god who's already turned on the gods who saved his life from Thor for no reason other than sheer paranoia, then you can't be that cavalier with your own survival against such people.

[JNAProductions]

And I believe it is.

The one-shot nuke that gets the guy who pushes the button has 0 value.

You cannot demonstrate it to cow the unimpressed, and you cannot benefit in its aftermath once used.

Dillinger's soap-gun would have been useless in a prior age because it would have looked as harmless as it really was. To be effective it would have to have been something the guard recognized or he would have to have used it to hurt someone.

Both of these things cannot be done in OotS because almost nobody knows about the gates, automatically making any threat of destroying it not a creditable threat, and any demonstration of it would be the last act the demonstrator performs.

"King of Nowhere, submit to me or I shall unleash The Snarl!"

"Oh my gosh! Wait, did he say Kraken? What's a Snarl? Someone show me a Snarl!"

There is an empty threat for you: one that makes you look foolish for uttering it. It's a bluff, and one that will be called more often than not.

TDO isn’t threatening the people-he’s threatening the gods. They know about the snarl.

[Hurkyl]

A perfectly rational and self-preserving individual's bluff might be comfortably called in such circumstances.
As an aside, this isn't actually true. The line of thought (I think) you have only works when considering choices on an individual basis. As part of an overarching strategy, you can get better outcomes by being prepared to commit to a "poor" choice to dissuade others from putting you in that position.

As a simple toy example, suppose you and someone else have stumbled across a pile of gold coins. For whatever reason, the other guy gets to decide how the loot is divided between the two of you... but you get to decide whether or not the treasure pile gets dumped into an abyss and cannot be claimed.

If you are a self-serving individual that is "perfectly rational" in that naive sense, and the other guy knows it and is also self-serving, then other guy will take the lion's share and leave a pittance to you, comfortable in the knowledge you will take it because it's better than nothing. It's more rational to be the kind of person that might not make the "better" choice, because that other guy will leave more loot for you.

[TRH]

As an aside, this isn't actually true. The line of thought (I think) you have only works when considering choices on an individual basis. As part of an overarching strategy, you can get better outcomes by being prepared to commit to a "poor" choice to dissuade others from putting you in that position.

As a simple toy example, suppose you and someone else have stumbled across a pile of gold coins. For whatever reason, the other guy gets to decide how the loot is divided between the two of you... but you get to decide whether or not the treasure pile gets dumped into an abyss and cannot be claimed.

If you are a self-serving individual that is "perfectly rational" in that naive sense, and the other guy knows it and is also self-serving, then other guy will take the lion's share and leave a pittance to you, comfortable in the knowledge you will take it because it's better than nothing. It's more rational to be the kind of person that might not make the "better" choice, because that other guy will leave more loot for you.

Point taken, but in any case, my larger point was that there are situations where a bluff is callable, and any that involve dealing with someone you consider a psychopath definitely don't qualify.

[RatElemental]

And I believe it is.

The one-shot nuke that gets the guy who pushes the button has 0 value.

You cannot demonstrate it to cow the unimpressed, and you cannot benefit in its aftermath once used.

Dillinger's soap-gun would have been useless in a prior age because it would have looked as harmless as it really was. To be effective it would have to have been something the guard recognized or he would have to have used it to hurt someone.

Both of these things cannot be done in OotS because almost nobody knows about the gates, automatically making any threat of destroying it not a creditable threat, and any demonstration of it would be the last act the demonstrator performs.

"King of Nowhere, submit to me or I shall unleash The Snarl!"

"Oh my gosh! Wait, did he say Kraken? What's a Snarl? Someone show me a Snarl!"

There is an empty threat for you: one that makes you look foolish for uttering it. It's a bluff, and one that will be called more often than not.

As others have mentioned, the dark one is threatening the gods, who know precisely what the snarl is. Xykon has been fooled to believe the ritual will give him control over the snarl, so he can use it as a minion to take over the world. Xykon's plan won't work of course, but not because it wouldn't work if the ritual actually worked that way.

[brian 333]

TDO isn’t threatening the people-he’s threatening the gods. They know about the snarl.

And they will be the first to call the bluff. They are half ready to end it all even before the threat can be made. If it looks like the ritual can be completed in ten weeks, or days, or hours, they will unmake everything in ten minutes and sneak off to their carefully provisioned winter quarters to wait out The Snarl.

If TDO is still around by then they may ask his help in the new world just to make it stronger against TS, but he may not make it or he may lack the power to do much by then.

So, the plan will not work. It's a hard backfire.

[JNAProductions]

And they will be the first to call the bluff. They are half ready to end it all even before the threat can be made. If it looks like the ritual can be completed in ten weeks, or days, or hours, they will unmake everything in ten minutes and sneak off to their carefully provisioned winter quarters to wait out The Snarl.

If TDO is still around by then they may ask his help in the new world just to make it stronger against TS, but he may not make it or he may lack the power to do much by then.

So, the plan will not work. It's a hard backfire.

Does TDO know this? Or is he operating off incorrect assumptions?

[RatElemental]

And they will be the first to call the bluff. They are half ready to end it all even before the threat can be made. If it looks like the ritual can be completed in ten weeks, or days, or hours, they will unmake everything in ten minutes and sneak off to their carefully provisioned winter quarters to wait out The Snarl.

If TDO is still around by then they may ask his help in the new world just to make it stronger against TS, but he may not make it or he may lack the power to do much by then.

So, the plan will not work. It's a hard backfire.

The fact that the gods will not allow the plan to come to fruition does not mean that the plan to use the teleporting rift to threaten them would not work. In fact, I think it's pretty clear evidence that it would work because they're willing to go so far to keep the nuke out of the dark one's grasp in the first place.

But assuming the ritual goes off, calling the dark one's bluff is the exact thing the gods will not do. Blowing up the world before the bluff is even made is not calling it.

[brian 333]

The fact that the gods will not allow the plan to come to fruition does not mean that the plan to use the teleporting rift to threaten them would not work. In fact, I think it's pretty clear evidence that it would work because they're willing to go so far to keep the nuke out of the dark one's grasp in the first place.

But assuming the ritual goes off, calling the dark one's bluff is the exact thing the gods will not do. Blowing up the world before the bluff is even made is not calling it.

Fair. What's the word for calling a bluff before it can be made? That's what they'll do.

Whether or not it's a good plan depends heavily on its probability of success. When the probability hits a hard zero, it's a bad plan. Durkon tried to tell him.

[RatElemental]

Fair. What's the word for calling a bluff before it can be made? That's what they'll do.

Whether or not it's a good plan depends heavily on its probability of success. When the probability hits a hard zero, it's a bad plan. Durkon tried to tell him.

I believe in this case it's flipping the table over and sending the chips flying, and then waiting until the gremlin that was pinned under the table calms down before trying to pick them up.

And yeah, that's one of the central conflicts in this book so far, trying to convinced Redcloak that his plan is doomed to failure and to try a new tactic.

[Quebbster]

Does TDO know this? Or is he operating off incorrect assumptions?
The latter, I believe. TDO doesn't seem to have the best report with the other gods. Or maybe he has been told he wouldn't survive but thinks that is a bluff.

[Metastachydium]

What it is called in universe or on the forum isn't really important. After all, a rose by any other name would still give you hayfever and infected thorn pricks. Or whatever it is Julie was whining about in that play.

My intent was not to correct the name, but to correct what I see as incorrect assumptions about the structures.

Modern users of the word have a specific object in mind when the word is used, and it appears to me that the comic is clear that the gates, once opened, cannot be simply closed. This implies, to me, a patch. A patch, when ripped off, can make the original damage worse. This happened at Soon's Gate and may have happened at Girard's and the others too.

Of course, there were five people who had exact knowledge of what they are and what they can do. One of them is Serini.

Serini seems to believe allowing the gate to fall into Xykon's hands is preferable to letting OotS 'accidentally' or intentionally destroy it. Rather than suppose an error in judgement by one of the five most succesrful adventurers of her generation, I propose that she knows something I (we) do not. While I have opined on what some of those things might be, I have no particular favorite, other than that it won't and can't be made to do what TE wants it to do.

Even Roy agrees that we don't know enough about the gates. Maybe Serini does.


And I believe it is.

The one-shot nuke that gets the guy who pushes the button has 0 value.

You cannot demonstrate it to cow the unimpressed, and you cannot benefit in its aftermath once used.

Dillinger's soap-gun would have been useless in a prior age because it would have looked as harmless as it really was. To be effective it would have to have been something the guard recognized or he would have to have used it to hurt someone.

Both of these things cannot be done in OotS because almost nobody knows about the gates, automatically making any threat of destroying it not a creditable threat, and any demonstration of it would be the last act the demonstrator performs.

"King of Nowhere, submit to me or I shall unleash The Snarl!"

"Oh my gosh! Wait, did he say Kraken? What's a Snarl? Someone show me a Snarl!"

There is an empty threat for you: one that makes you look foolish for uttering it. It's a bluff, and one that will be called more often than not.


And they will be the first to call the bluff. They are half ready to end it all even before the threat can be made. If it looks like the ritual can be completed in ten weeks, or days, or hours, they will unmake everything in ten minutes and sneak off to their carefully provisioned winter quarters to wait out The Snarl.

If TDO is still around by then they may ask his help in the new world just to make it stronger against TS, but he may not make it or he may lack the power to do much by then.

So, the plan will not work. It's a hard backfire.

Again,
1. it seems quite clear (based on what she tells two people she has no reason to lie to) that Serini believes the Ritual does what Xykon thinks it does; in that case, she
1.1. either believes that the Ritual works and allows Xykon to unleash and contain the Snarl as he pleases
1.2. or that the Ritual doesn't work and Xykon will destroy the world trying to use it (less likely than 1.1, since Serini states that Xykon will get to rule the world if Team Evil captures the Gate).
2. If she knows what the Ritual does (unlikely), her plan doesn't sound any better:
2.1. supposing she thinks things will work as intended, conceding the Gate to Team Evil will give a nuke to a vengeful god who might fire it off out of spite if his demands aren't met;
2.2. supposing she thinks the Plan is bound to fail and the gods will destroy the world before the Ritual could be completed (even more unlikely, because there's no way she knows about the Godsmoot), through letting Team Evil have the Gate, she knowingly dooms the world.

So, depending on what she knows, she is likely to think that her "brilliant and genial" plan will let a CE creep have control over the Snarl (which might easily lead to the world being devoured) OR she thinks the same creep will accidentally get the world devoured when the Ritual fails to do what it was supposed to do OR she thinks that giving Big Purple a nuke he's not afraid to use is a good idea OR she thinks the gods destroying the world is a preferable outcome.
Her approach, subsequently, only makes sense if she believes that the Plan will succeed which you claim to be impossible.

[Thales]

I think maybe the most parsimonious explanation is that Serini doesn't know the Plan. The Order of the Scribble has fought a ton of random villains (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) who sought to use the power of the rifts for their own purposes, and Xykon sure seems like yet another of that variety, not least because he thinks he is. Redcloak's actual plan is a pretty well-kept secret (to avoid Xykon killing him, for starters), so the fact that it's the sort of thing that would send the gods to Defcon 1 isn't something that she's aware of.

[brian 333]

Again,
1. it seems quite clear (based on what she tells two people she has no reason to lie to) that Serini believes the Ritual does what Xykon thinks it does; in that case, she
1.1. either believes that the Ritual works and allows Xykon to unleash and contain the Snarl as he pleases
1.2. or that the Ritual doesn't work and Xykon will destroy the world trying to use it (less likely than 1.1, since Serini states that Xykon will get to rule the world if Team Evil captures the Gate).
2. If she knows what the Ritual does (unlikely), her plan doesn't sound any better:
2.1. supposing she thinks things will work as intended, conceding the Gate to Team Evil will give a nuke to a vengeful god who might fire it off out of spite if his demands aren't met;
2.2. supposing she thinks the Plan is bound to fail and the gods will destroy the world before the Ritual could be completed (even more unlikely, because there's no way she knows about the Godsmoot), through letting Team Evil have the Gate, she knowingly dooms the world.

So, depending on what she knows, she is likely to think that her "brilliant and genial" plan will let a CE creep have control over the Snarl (which might easily lead to the world being devoured) OR she thinks the same creep will accidentally get the world devoured when the Ritual fails to do what it was supposed to do OR she thinks that giving Big Purple a nuke he's not afraid to use is a good idea OR she thinks the gods destroying the world is a preferable outcome.
Her approach, subsequently, only makes sense if she believes that the Plan will succeed which you claim to be impossible.

Can you explain where you get the idea that Serini believes the gate will do what Xykom thinks it will do?

I have read through the taunting of the paladins, and nowhere does she say or imply this. The closest she comes is in describing a hypothetical outcome in which Xykon wins as preferable to one in which the world ends. She does not say these are the only two possible outcomes. Her only intent was to hammer home the point that the paladins have never even considered any outcome other than, "Don't allow Xykon to have a gate at all costs."

And she does lie to the paladins when she has no reason to do so, just for fun.

And the dichotomy: she must believe everything TE wants can be acomplished, or she's just handing them the nuclear football. There is no middle ground? Just after a lecture from her about the dangers of binary thinking? What if there is another option? I have speculated on some possiblities, as have others.

Serini has been working on this problem longer than any other character in the story has been alive. I'm sure she has thought of at least a third possible outcome.

I think that she believes the worst case is that TE will gain possession of the gate and discover that they can't do anything with it, any more than they could do anything with Dorukons gate. Their choice then is between suicide and bluffing for concessions, and neither of them appears to be suicidal. (Hard to rule the world when you are dead. And there's no world.)

I think she believes that there is a more likely outcome if TE finds the gate. They discover that it can't do what they want it to do, and turn on each other. The problem solves itself.

In fact, frustration over their inability to find the gate may lead to a breakup of TE, so, again, self solving problem.

It's not a black or white problem, as Auntie Serini points out. If you only see black or white answers, you miss a whole rainbow of options. That's what she was telling the paladins.

[RatElemental]

One of Serini's stated reasons for taking the paladins and order out is to prevent a conflict that would threaten the gate. If she's banking on an alliance between villains falling through when they find the gate being a safer option...

Well. she's more optimistic than I am about such a situation if so.

[Metastachydium]

Can you explain where you get the idea that Serini believes the gate will do what Xykom thinks it will do?

"Xykon is a vicious *******, but he just wants to rule the world – not destroy it. And the world is a big, big place. It'll survive a few years of a villain calling the shots (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html)"

It's indeed not implied. She explicitly says that Xykon will get to rule the world for years if Team Evil wins. Controlling the Gate alone wouldn't let him to that.


And she does lie to the paladins when she has no reason to do so, just for fun.

Lying about letting them go was funny for her because it set up a "punchline" (more of a punch than a line, really): she got to bonk them and gloat about how clever she is.


I'm sure she has thought of at least a third possible outcome.

Good for you.


I think that she believes the worst case is that TE will gain possession of the gate and discover that they can't do anything with it, any more than they could do anything with Dorukons gate.

It's Dorukan (not to be confused with Durkon), and that was because of the sigil, which they would have bypassed if it weren't for a phenomenal case of bad luck, so that's not really a valid argument.


Their choice then is between suicide and bluffing for concessions, and neither of them appears to be suicidal. (Hard to rule the world when you are dead. And there's no world.)

I think she believes that there is a more likely outcome if TE finds the gate. They discover that it can't do what they want it to do, and turn on each other. The problem solves itself.

How so? They have seen two Gates from up close. Even if the Plan is bound not to work (which is not the positive certainty you present it as), they wouldn't find that out simply by looking at the Gate.
If, in turn, you mean that the Ritual doesn't work, period, well, that is a baseless speculation on your part that I see no reason to address beyond pointing out that it was devised by a god and the other gods are willing to believe that it works as intended, while Serini… She's a funny little halfling who thinks she's very clever.


In fact, frustration over their inability to find the gate may lead to a breakup of TE, so, again, self solving problem.

If Serini counts on that, she must be desperate.


It's not a black or white problem, as Auntie Serini points out. If you only see black or white answers, you miss a whole rainbow of options. That's what she was telling the paladins.

There's a whole range of possible outcomes, but most of them invlove the world being devoured or destroyed. Like I said, the only scenario I can think of where Team Evil would capture the Gate and that would still be avoided is the one where the Plan works, but you don't like that one.

(And one more thing: if you think the solution is going to be "Team Evil was never a real threat because <insert the Gate is not a gate nonsense here>", I'm pretty confident you are up for copious amounts of disappointment.)

[Hurkyl]

"Xykon is a vicious *******, but he just wants to rule the world – not destroy it. And the world is a big, big place. It'll survive a few years of a villain calling the shots (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html)"

It's indeed not implied. She explicitly says that Xykon will get to rule the world for years if Team Evil wins. Controlling the Gate alone wouldn't let him to that.
She says no such thing explicitly. What she does say is that Xykon's goal isn't so bad, in the context of contrasting it against the Paladin's desperation to deny bad guys a victory.

Anything you think this says about a connection between securing the gate and actually achieving his goal is you making inferences based on what she doesn't say. While plausible, I don't think it a particularly likely reading. Doubly so if you consider the general flow of the conversation of Serini knocking down point by point the paladins' fundamental way of thinking about the situation.


If Serini counts on that, she must be desperate.
That's an odd response, given that the person you're replying is listing "that" as merely being one of

a whole range of possible outcomes

[Metastachydium]

While plausible, I don't think it a particularly likely reading.

So "Team Evil may as well win, because they are after world domination and that's the worst they can achieve" is an unlikely reading now?

[Hurkyl]

The forums have talked a lot about what Serini thinks the ritual will do... but do we have any reason at all to think that Serini has any idea there's a ritual? Or that Team Evil has a plan for using the gate? Or even that Team Evil is even capable of doing something with them?

Actually, we know that Serini knows that the gates imprison the snarl, but does she even know anything beyond that? The mere fact of being on the Order of the Scribble is something, but doesn't imply all that much.

Anyways,

So "Team Evil may as well win, because they are after world domination and that's the worst they can achieve" is an unlikely reading now?
Yes. In fact, I find it even more likely that's what Serini thinks than what you previously claimed she was saying.

[brian 333]

I believe she was arguing a hypothetical.

Question: is the destruction of any gate a superior outcome to letting Xykon control it?

Serini's Answer: No. Endangering the stability of existence to prevent a short-term problem like Xykon becoming King of Everywhere is not a fair trade.

Reasons given include, but are not limited to:
Xykon might kill millions, the end of existence kills everyone.
Xykon wilk enslave millions, they and their children will still exist on liberation day.
Xykon will destroy the dignity of the good people, there are many who are just as deserving of that dignity who may have a better chance of getting it under Xykon's rule.

Nowhere in the hypothetical argument does she say, "This is my goal." She only says, "Of the two alternatives you paladins present, enslavement under Xykon is superior to the end of the world."

So far, Serini has not said a single word about what her goal might be or how she plans to achieve it. I have speculated, not to say, "I know her plan," but to offer plausible options.

Your mileage may vary on how plausible my options are.

[Metastachydium]

The forums have talked a lot about what Serini thinks the ritual will do... but do we have any reason at all to think that Serini has any idea there's a ritual? Or that Team Evil has a plan for using the gate? Or even that Team Evil is even capable of doing something with them?

That's one fair point, you see. That said, she does know that Xykon wants to rule rather than destroy the world (as the Order and even the Guard (v. Miko) previously believed), so she's certainly not completely ignorant of what the "official" version of Team Evil's plans is. What she doesn't seem to know is that the main roster of Team Evil essentially belongs to three rival teams with opposing goals.


Actually, we know that Serini knows that the gates imprison the snarl, but does she even know anything beyond that? The mere fact of being on the Order of the Scribble is something, but doesn't imply all that much.

Right? That's one of my issues with Brian's "Serini might no more than the gods" thing. Dorukan, the resident nerd of the Scribblers and one of the two people who perforemed the sealing of the Rifts believed that worse things can happen to his Gate than getting destroyed. The idea that Serini somehow knew more than he did just strains credibility.


Anyways,

Yes. In fact, I find it even more likely that's what Serini thinks than what you previously claimed she was saying.

?


I believe she was arguing a hypothetical.

Question: is the destruction of any gate a superior outcome to letting Xykon control it?

Serini's Answer: No. Endangering the stability of existence to prevent a short-term problem like Xykon becoming King of Everywhere is not a fair trade.

Reasons given include, but are not limited to:
Xykon might kill millions, the end of existence kills everyone.
Xykon wilk enslave millions, they and their children will still exist on liberation day.
Xykon will destroy the dignity of the good people, there are many who are just as deserving of that dignity who may have a better chance of getting it under Xykon's rule.

This hypothetical does assume that Xykon can achieve world domination which Serini couldn't find even remotely plausible were she to believe that controlling the Snarl is impossible.


Nowhere in the hypothetical argument does she say, "This is my goal." She only says, "Of the two alternatives you paladins present, enslavement under Xykon is superior to the end of the world."

So far, Serini has not said a single word about what her goal might be or how she plans to achieve it. I have speculated, not to say, "I know her plan," but to offer plausible options.

I don't think I ever said that her goal is to make Xykon the God Emperor of Dune Stickworld. But we do know that her current plan involves letting Team Evil be and hunting down everyone who disagrees with this course of action.
Also, I don't find your options particularly plausible. What you outlined in the OP for instance assumes that
1. Serini somehow knows more about the Gates than freakin' Dorukan (v. my response to Hurkyl above) and
2. Team Evil was never actually a real threat.


Your mileage may vary on how plausible my options are.

To each their own, of course and I'll get off your back if that's what you want. I just thought that since we are mainly here, on this forum to aggressively dissect each other's little opinions, I might as well do that and give you some feedback.

[KorvinStarmast]

The one-shot nuke that gets the guy who pushes the button has 0 value. Hmm, seen some odd nuke events in Starcraft games that makes me doubt this analysis ... :smallcool:

[brian 333]

That's one fair point, you see. That said, she does know that Xykon wants to rule rather than destroy the world (as the Order and even the Guard (v. Miko) previously believed), so she's certainly not completely ignorant of what the "official" version of Team Evil's plans is. What she doesn't seem to know is that the main roster of Team Evil essentially belongs to three rival teams with opposing goals.



Right? That's one of my issues with Brian's "Serini might no more than the gods" thing. Dorukan, the resident nerd of the Scribblers and one of the two people who perforemed the sealing of the Rifts believed that worse things can happen to his Gate than getting destroyed. The idea that Serini somehow knew more than he did just strains credibility.



?



This hypothetical does assume that Xykon can achieve world domination which Serini couldn't find even remotely plausible were she to believe that controlling the Snarl is impossible.



I don't think I ever said that her goal is to make Xykon the God Emperor of Dune Stickworld. But we do know that her current plan involves letting Team Evil be and hunting down everyone who disagrees with this course of action.
Also, I don't find your options particularly plausible. What you outlined in the OP for instance assumes that
1. Serini somehow knows more about the Gates than freakin' Dorukan (v. my response to Hurkyl above) and
2. Team Evil was never actually a real threat.



To each their own, of course and I'll get off your back if that's what you want. I just thought that since we are mainly here, on this forum to aggressively dissect each other's little opinions, I might as well do that and give you some feedback.

I am not offended. I am enjoying the challenge. Facing ideas and opinions that are not my own is how I learn.

Serini may know more than the gods about the gates. They are not all-knowing. Whether she does or not, I think she knows more about her gate than anyone, gods included.

As for whether she is smarter than Dorukon, the real question is, are the gates the same? Soon's gate was destroyed with a katana. Months of goblins attacking Dorukon's gate resulted in dead goblins. Perhaps she knows something we do not.

The multidimensional stone mentioned in the flashback comes to mind. We do not know its properties. I bet she does. She may know it can't be teleported, making the ritual useless on this one gate.

Or she may not know anything about the ritual and wrongly believes that she's covered all the possible ways it could be exploited.

Either way, in her apparent opinion, she doesn't need three-time gate crashers ruining her years of preparation.

Next

A hypothetical need not have any association with a real person's beliefs. Let's say that we were discussing a fetish and I commented that as consenting adults they have the right to do that. Does it tell you anything about my moral opinion on the fetish?
"If he defends people who do that he must do that," is just as invalid as, "If he does that he'd have just said it's okay."
(picked a random hypothetical so we don't correlate it with anything in the comic)

The thing is, arguing one extreme versus another tells us nothing about where in the spectrum she really aims to land. Especially when it was the paladins, and not Serini, who set up the endpoints of the discussion as polar opposites with no space between them for other alternatives.

We really have no idea what Serini finds plausible because she was arguing a hypothetical that asked if letting Xykon rule the world was better than the end of the world. She was never asked if Xykon's plan would work, and she offered no opinion on that. And we'd have no way to check her opinion if she offered it.

As for letting TE be and going after everyone else, I play the BS card. So far, her 1st layer of defense is working. Who kows it won't be enough? And gate defenses are like ogres have layers. It may be months before TE even comes close to progress.

Your assertion that she has done nothing about TE is just as invalid as my assertion that she has a temple full of undead-hating monks on the way if she can hang on for two more days. We do not know, and absence of evidence is eviden... Evidence of absence...
Proof of evidence is ab...
You know what I'm saying.

Serini has confidence in her plan. We know this from her attempt to remove unwanted disruption from outsiders.

Whether her confidence is merited or not is another issue, and one that has too many unanswered variables to compute.

[Metastachydium]

I am not offended. I am enjoying the challenge. Facing ideas and opinions that are not my own is how I learn.

Serini may know more than the gods about the gates. They are not all-knowing. Whether she does or not, I think she knows more about her gate than anyone, gods included.

As for whether she is smarter than Dorukon, the real question is, are the gates the same? Soon's gate was destroyed with a katana. Months of goblins attacking Dorukon's gate resulted in dead goblins. Perhaps she knows something we do not.

It wasn't the Gate that killed the goblins. It was the sigil placed on the Gate, and like I said, they only failed to bypass it beacuse of a bout of early installment weirdness phenomenal bad luck.


The multidimensional stone mentioned in the flashback comes to mind. We do not know its properties. I bet she does. She may know it can't be teleported, making the ritual useless on this one gate.

If Serini's wand of Dimension Door works just fine, I see no reason to suspect that a teleportation effect devised by a god wouldn't. Even Dorukan's Cloister wasn't fully teleportation-proof.


Or she may not know anything about the ritual and wrongly believes that she's covered all the possible ways it could be exploited.

Now, that wouldn't surprise me.


Either way, in her apparent opinion, she doesn't need three-time gate crashers ruining her years of preparation.

Two-time. They had little to do with Soon's. Also, Team Evil is a bunch of one-time Gate crashers, soÂ…


A hypothetical need not have any association with a real person's beliefs. Let's say that we were discussing a fetish and I commented that as consenting adults they have the right to do that. Does it tell you anything about my moral opinion on the fetish?
"If he defends people who do that he must do that," is just as invalid as, "If he does that he'd have just said it's okay."
(picked a random hypothetical so we don't correlate it with anything in the comic)

That's a horrible analogy which is not exactly relevant to the discussion, since it has a structure vastly different from that of the one in the comic.


The thing is, arguing one extreme versus another tells us nothing about where in the spectrum she really aims to land. Especially when it was the paladins, and not Serini, who set up the endpoints of the discussion as polar opposites with no space between them for other alternatives.

We really have no idea what Serini finds plausible because she was arguing a hypothetical that asked if letting Xykon rule the world was better than the end of the world. She was never asked if Xykon's plan would work, and she offered no opinion on that. And we'd have no way to check her opinion if she offered it.

Nope. The paladins asked her if she'd have had them just let Xykon win. She basically answers "sure, he just wants to rule the world and he might as well just do that." She never contests the idea that Xykon would get to rule the world, although that would be a far better counter-argument. Structurally the two options have a symmetrical composition. Xykon getting to rule the world corresponds to the paladins destroying the last Gate, which she considers likely.


As for letting TE be and going after everyone else, I play the BS card. So far, her 1st layer of defense is working. Who kows it won't be enough? And gate defenses are like ogres have layers. It may be months before TE even comes close to progress.

They work quite fast and (thanks to Serini) mostly unhindered.


Your assertion that she has done nothing about TE is just as invalid as my assertion that she has a temple full of undead-hating monks on the way if she can hang on for two more days. We do not know, and absence of evidence is eviden... Evidence of absence...
Proof of evidence is ab...
You know what I'm saying.

She made sure to remove players from the field who didn't have any realistic chance of getting anywhere near the Gate. Team Evil works unharassed. These are facts.

[brian 333]

Those are the opposite of facts. TE has been there since the dust-up in the dunes, and were nowhere near figuring out the first defense. OotS was there for minutes, and not only got through the first defense, but were about to show Xykon how to do it.

If the machine ain't broke, don't show the bad guys how to break it.

In other words, Layer 1 was working. OotS was not helping any more than my four year old neice 'helped' make cookies last Christmas.

[Metastachydium]

TE has been there since the dust-up in the dunes, and were nowhere near figuring out the first defense. OotS was there for minutes, and not only got through the first defense, but were about to show Xykon how to do it.

If the machine ain't broke, don't show the bad guys how to break it.

I'm pretty sure I was among those who were very quick to point out how ill-conceived an idea that ambush plan was, but Serini didn't want to eliminate the Order from the game because of that. The paladins were in no position to really hinder her efforts (no trapfinding, no realistic chance to get far in any of the dungeons) and she still attacked them.


In other words, Layer 1 was working. OotS was not helping any more than my four year old neice 'helped' make cookies last Christmas.

So you wanna say the Order was busy being cute and making Serini feel better?

[Precure]

Is the only thing that will satisfy you the Giant answering the question? Or one of the characters saying it? If so, asking the question is a bit of a waste of time.

???

The Giant never said that the gate is not actually a gate. There is nothing supports that in-story.

It's this thread's claim is that the gate is not actually a gate. There is nothing that proves that claim.

That begs the question why everyone called it a gate if it's not a gate. We're given no answer on that by the person who made the "it's not a gate" claim.

Three pages of discussion, there is still no answer.

And now people are discussing about Serini, again, for some reason. What a time to be alive...

[brian 333]

It's been answered several times.

The word 'Gate' has many meanings which might be applied to the structures sealing the rifts.

I responded that modern users of the word have a certain object in mind when they use the word, and it ain't what we see in game.

I will also admit that the author loves to use words exactly as they are meant to be used while implying more than one meaning.

So, technically correct useage or not, what we have been calling a gate acts more like a patch or a bandage, in my opinion. It can be ripped off, but not opened and closed. Without the ability to be able to open and close it is useless to Xykon. (Others disagree and point out how it can work,) and in the time it takes one to make a list of demands from the gods they will have unmade the world and left for their hidden refuges.

I think, based on opinion strongly implied by the comic, that this gate cannot be made to do what the ritual is designed to do. I am prepared to revise this opinion when facts warrant. If Serini believes this as well, (whether correctly or in-,) her acting to remove OotS from her game board is logical. She's not letting TE win, she's letting TE waste time.

In other words, her plan is working fine, and she does not want three-gate losers underfoot and second-guessing her. They literally blew their chances.

[Metastachydium]

I think, based on opinion strongly implied by the comic, that this gate cannot be made to do what the ritual is designed to do. I am prepared to revise this opinion when facts warrant. If Serini believes this as well, (whether correctly or in-,) her acting to remove OotS from her game board is logical. She's not letting TE win, she's letting TE waste time.

That's not implied in the comic, strongly or otherwise. It is implied that Serini doesn't know what the Plan is and it is implied (to say the least) that she believes Xykon getting to rule the world if he captures a Gate is within the realm of possibility. We also know that Dorukan, who certainly knew more about the Gates, viewed nepharious actors using (as opposed to destroying) them as a realistic danger.


In other words, her plan is working fine, and she does not want three-gate losers underfoot and second-guessing her. They literally blew their chances.

Again, they only destroyed two Gates (the third was Miko and they would definitely not have done the same if they were in her position) and Team Evil, whom she views as a lesser threat also destroyed one. Also, had she been just a precious little bit less dumb, the world would probably still have four intact Gates. She failed as a guardian, big time, well before the Order's ever set foot in the Dungeon of Dorukan.

[Precure]

So, technically correct useage or not, what we have been calling a gate acts more like a patch or a bandage, in my opinion. It can be ripped off, but not opened and closed. Without the ability to be able to open and close it is useless to Xykon.

Redcloak's plan is transfering the gate to some other plane by using the ritual, and then threatening the gods to opening it there. So, it can be opened and there is no reason to believe it can't be closed. It also begs the question what is the difference between opening a gate and destroying it if it's the same thing.


I think, based on opinion strongly implied by the comic, that this gate cannot be made to do what the ritual is designed to do. I am prepared to revise this opinion when facts warrant. If Serini believes this as well, (whether correctly or in-,) her acting to remove OotS from her game board is logical. She's not letting TE win, she's letting TE waste time.

Strongly implied where? And even so, you still need to explain why they called it a gate then.

[brian 333]

Why they call it a gate has been answered way back in the thread by multiple posters. But we need only ask, "Why does MitD say, 'What gate?' every time the word is used around an actual gate?"

Monster-san has been telling us all along that whatever it is, it's not a gate.

TDOs knowledge of the gates came from the same gods who didn't know about the planet in the rifts. He has a demonstrably flawed idea of what they are. Why can't his plan to exploit them be flawed as well?

[RatElemental]

Well the other gods certainly think his plan to move the rift to the outer planes will work, because they're going to destroy the world rather than let him try it.

[Precure]

With the rifts, Snarl could only escape into the outside world, the plane where humans live. With the gates, Snarl can travel to other planes of existence. Sounds like a gate to me.

[KorvinStarmast]

But we need only ask, "Why does MitD say, 'What gate?' every time the word is used around an actual gate?"

Monster-san has been telling us all along that whatever it is, it's not a gate. That appears to be the best anchor for this line of inquiry; all of the semantic gymnastics on definitions are not.

TDOs knowledge of the gates came from the same gods who didn't know about the planet in the rifts. He has a demonstrably flawed idea of what they are. Why can't his plan to exploit them be flawed as well? It can be, particularly as he is not aware that he might not make it through the destruction re-creation cycle.

With the rifts, Snarl could only escape into the outside world, the plane where humans live. I am not so sure about that. Each time the Snarl gets out and destroys a world the gods have to imprison it again in another world. Seems to me as though by destroying a world the Snarl removes an obstacle to getting at the gods. The rifts are step 1 in a multi step process that happens before the Snarl gets out yet again as it has done millions of times before (Literally. See the unending pile of monuments to previous worlds that Thor showed to Durkon and Minrah (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html)). The original world (after the Green Pantheon was destroyed) was a prison for the Snarl. I have no reason to think that subsequent worlds do not fulfill the same function.

With the gates, Snarl can travel to other planes of existence. The gates are a new thing created by a combination of divine and arcane magic. Granted, I do not disagree that they seem to perform quite a bit like a gate spell, but they are not a gate spell. They are a thing that closes an opening in the Snarl's prison, when they work correctly.

[Precure]

I have no idea what are you talking about. None of things you just said sounds anyway relevant to things we've discussed here.

[Metastachydium]

Why they call it a gate has been answered way back in the thread by multiple posters. But we need only ask, "Why does MitD say, 'What gate?' every time the word is used around an actual gate?"

Monster-san has been telling us all along that whatever it is, it's not a gate.

That's… Not exactly what I'd call solid evidence.
1. MitD is oblivious of a great lot of things. He's not a cosmic power with infinite knowledge and there are way less complicated things he doesn't understand.
2. The only actual Gate around which he said this line was Dorukan's which did have a wooden gate attached to it (for some reason).


TDOs knowledge of the gates came from the same gods who didn't know about the planet in the rifts. He has a demonstrably flawed idea of what they are. Why can't his plan to exploit them be flawed as well?

Wrong. His knowledge of the Snarl and the Rifts comes from the gods. What he knows about the Gates is the result of thorough personal research on his part. He examined them himself and he found "a backdoor" that could be exploited and he developed a Ritual that can do that.

[brian 333]

That's… Not exactly what I'd call solid evidence.
1. MitD is oblivious of a great lot of things. He's not a cosmic power with infinite knowledge and there are way less complicated things he doesn't understand.
2. The only actual Gate around which he said this line was Dorukan's which did have a wooden gate attached to it (for some reason).



Wrong. His knowledge of the Snarl and the Rifts comes from the gods. What he knows about the Gates is the result of thorough personal research on his part. He examined them himself and he found "a backdoor" that could be exploited and he developed a Ritual that can do that.

I missed the part about TDO conducting his own field study. Is that in spoiler material, or did I read past it long ago?

[Metastachydium]

I missed the part about TDO conducting his own field study. Is that in spoiler material, or did I read past it long ago?

Start of Darkness, p. 44.

[Ron Miel]

In several of our recent discussions we have debated aspects of Team Evil's plots involving the last gate. Lately there have been suggestions that Serini's judgement is flawed when she suggested that Xykon being in possession of a gate is preferable to the destruction of the gate.

Only, it's not a gate. A gate can be opened and closed, and there is no indication that once opened, these 'gates' can be closed.



I think that a quote from The Giant is significant.


The gem reinforces the Gate; the gem is NOT the Gate, and the Gate is not the seal, and the seal is not the rift.

This indicates that there are several layers of security.

First of all, the rift is sealed. The seal is designed to stay closed at all times, and never be opened.

Then a gate is put on top of the seal. The gate serves as additional protection, preventing access to the seal. A gate can be sometimes opened. My guess, this allows inspection, maintenance and strengthening of the seal. Usually it remains closed.

Then there are various protections, preventing access to the gate, whether guarded by paladins, monsters, illusions, or wizardry.

And the whole thing surrounded by secrecy, so no outsider knows about the gate in the first place.