Is it possible to get more than this many cantrips?

[HeartfulSmiler]

Okay, so I've been on this site for a while now, but haven't posted yet, so I figured I'd post an idea I had.

When I saw LudicSavant's warlock build with 9 cantrips, I was impressed. However, I wanted to see if I could get more. Since then, I have been trying to maximize the number of cantrips I could get on one character. This is what I have.

Assumptions:

20th level

No magic items not created by this character directly using artificer class or subclass abilities

All official 5e sourcebooks allowed

Magic Initiate can be taken multiple times


The best build I got so far:
VHuman Artificer 1/Bard 1/Nature Cleric 1/Aberrant Mind Sorcerer 1/Spores Druid 4/Arcane Trickster Rogue 4/Celestial Tomelock 4/Illusionist Wizard 4 (level 20)

Stats (point buy): 8/9/14/13/14/16
No ASIs
Feats: Magic Initiate x5

Cantrip Total:
Artificer 1: 2 cantrips
Bard 1: 2 cantrips
Nature Cleric 1: 3 + 1 from druid list = 4 cantrips
Aberrant Mind Sorcerer 1: 4 + mind sliver = 5 cantrips
Spores Druid 4: 3 + chill touch = 4 cantrips
Arcane Trickster 4: 3 cantrips
Celestial Tomelock 4: 3 + 3 (tome) + light + sacred flame = 8 cantrips
Illusionist 4: 4 + minor illusion (or other wizard cantrip) = 5 cantrips
Total: 2 x 5 (Magic Initiates) + 2 + 2 + 4 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 8 + 5 = 43 cantrips!

That is more than the number of cantrips in the entire PHB!
But yes, I checked, and including other sourcebooks, there are more than 43 cantrips in the game.

Comments? Corrections? Questions? Ideas for possible improvements? :smallsmile:

[Xihirli]

You cannot take Magic Initiate five times.

[HeartfulSmiler]

I know, it was a (homebrew, I guess?) assumption I made for fun :smalltongue:

I'm sorry for not clarifying :smallfrown:

Removing that, I can still take Magic Initiate once, take Spell Sniper (1 cantrip) once, and take Artificer Initiate (1 cantrip) once, then replace Spores Druid 4/Illusionist 4 with Spores Druid 2/Illusionist 2/Druidic Warrior Ranger 2/Blessed Warrior Paladin 2 to get a total of 43 - 2 x 4 + 1 + 1 - 1 - 1 + 2 + 2 = 39, still more than the PHB total IIRC :smallwink:

[Foolwise]

Shame about the limit on Magic Initiate as there are 44 cantrips in 5e currently. The question would have been which cantrip do you NOT take... and that answer is easy- True Strike.

So now that you have 39 cantrips, the question becomes which five cantrips do you not take. True Strike and?

[kazaryu]

Shame about the limit on Magic Initiate as there are 44 cantrips in 5e currently. The question would have been which cantrip do you NOT take... and that answer is easy- True Strike.

So now that you have 39 cantrips, the question becomes which five cantrips do you not take. True Strike and?

well that are a few cantrips that are roughyl the same. things like produce flame vs firebolt. they both do very similar things, so you really only need one. i'd say keep produce flame since...you already have plenty of attack cantrip options, and it miht be cool to be able to just...summon flame into your hand.

create bonfire..summon campfire...whatever its called would be in a similar boat i think. frostbite is another one you could probably safely leave behind. con saves are generally bad, and you could instead take vicous mockery if you wanna inflict disadvantage on a single attack roll. tbh, i'd probably take true strike for the like 1 time in the characters life its actually useful and leave off 5 pure attack cantrips. things like toll the dead, poison spray. 5 of the worst cantrips that exclusively deal damage.

[Zhorn]

I know, it was a (homebrew, I guess?) assumption I made for fun :smalltongue:

I'm sorry for not clarifying :smallfrown:

Removing that...
For the best really. Any discussion about what is possible becomes pointless if homebrew is allowed, since the only answer remaining becomes "whatever you want".

I can still take Magic Initiate once, take Spell Sniper (1 cantrip) once, and take Artificer Initiate (1 cantrip) once, then replace Spores Druid 4/Illusionist 4 with Spores Druid 2/Illusionist 2/Druidic Warrior Ranger 2/Blessed Warrior Paladin 2 to get a total of 43 - 2 x 4 + 1 + 1 - 1 - 1 + 2 + 2 = 39, still more than the PHB total IIRC :smallwink:
No guarantee you'll get those 39(or as many as you need) unless you got through them all manually to check what ones are available for each class pick and what ones are overlapped with the other.
It'll take some work to double check (and I'm too lazy busy right now), but if there are any classes with more unique cantrips than you are able to select that are not offered by other classes, or the classes that give you the most picks overlap heavily with double-up picks from other classes...
It might still work out and you get all of them, but yeah it'll take some sorting to confirm it.

[Sigreid]

It kinda might be fun to make a hedgewizard class that is a caster with only cantrips, but potential access to all of the cantrips and maybe some class/subclass features around combining them/casting more than one in a round.

[Greywander]

Artificer 1 - 2 artificer cantrips
Bard 1 - 2 bard cantrips
Cleric (Arcana) 1 - 3 cleric cantrips + 2 wizard cantrips
Druid (Spores) 2 - 2 druid cantrips + Chill Touch
Paladin 2 (via Blessed Warrior) - 2 cleric cantrips
Ranger 2 (via Druidic Warrior) - 2 druid cantrips
Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 4 - 2 wizard cantrips + Mage Hand + feat
Sorcerer (Aberrant Mind) 1 - 4 sorcerer cantrips + Mind Sliver
Warlock (Celestial, Pact of the Tome) 4 - 3 warlock cantrips + 3 cantrips (no list restrictions) + Light + Sacred Flame + feat
Wizard (Illusionist) 2 - 3 wizard cantrips + Minor Illusion

Total level - 20
Total cantrips - 36
Total cantrips by class:

2 artificer cantrips
2 bard cantrips
5 cleric cantrips
4 druid cantrips
4 sorcerer cantrips
3 warlock cantrips
5 wizard cantrips
3 cantrips from any list
Chill Touch, Mage Hand, Mind Sliver, Light, Sacred Flame, Minor Illusion

This build gets two feats, one of which should be Magic Initiate for 2 more cantrips. Artificer Initiate or Aberrant Dragonmark both grant one additional cantrip, bringing our total up to 39. Finally, we can play any of a number of races that get a free cantrip, for a final total of 40. I'm sure you could do better than this, but this is pretty solid. Would probably be a nightmare to actually play, particularly from 1st level.

[lukethecat2003]

Shame about the limit on Magic Initiate as there are 44 cantrips in 5e currently. The question would have been which cantrip do you NOT take... and that answer is easy- True Strike.

So now that you have 39 cantrips, the question becomes which five cantrips do you not take. True Strike and?

Shilleaghly (trash tbh) or primal savagery (both give a way for melee, but redundant for both to be there).
True Strike
spare the dying (just make a check or use a cleric spell instead.)
Green flame blade (imo, its just worse than its counterpart)
Thunderclap (i think word of radiance has better damage type)

[SLOTHRPG95]

Not sure if it makes the aforementioned overlap better or worse, but Arcana domain gives two wizard cantrips vs. Nature domain's one druid cantrip. Also, FWIW with 8 Str and 9 Dex you can't MC into (or out of) Rogue, Ranger, or Paladin. You'd have to go with a more flat 13/13/12/13/13/13 with your PB VHuman.

[kazaryu]

Shilleaghly (trash tbh) or primal savagery (both give a way for melee, but redundant for both to be there).
True Strike
spare the dying (just make a check or use a cleric spell instead.)
Green flame blade (imo, its just worse than its counterpart)
Thunderclap (i think word of radiance has better damage type)

spare the dying: you mean risk failing a check? like, i get it, spare the dying is fairly niche, but what are you gaining by leaving it behind? another attack cantrip on top the the dozen you already have? there's really no reason to drop any non-utility cantrip. there's plenty of overlap amongst damage cantrips to trim out.

[kingcheesepants]

Artificer (any) 10: 3 cantrips + magic item adept
Wizard (illusion) 3: 3 cantrips + minor illusion and cantrip formulas
Sorcerer (aberrant mind) 1: 4 cantrips + mind sliver
Bard 1: 2 cantrips
Druid 1: 2 cantrips
Cleric (knowledge) 1: 3 cantrips + expertise in Arcana
Warlock (celestial, pact of tome) 3: 2 cantrips+ sacred flame, light and any 3.
Total native 27
This is a lot lower than some of the other people had, however there are a few things that make this build special. Namely magic item adept and arcana expertise. As a level 10 artificer you can make any uncommon item. This would include the Mizzium Apparatus which allows you to make an Arcana check in order to attempt to cast any spell on your classes spell list which you have slots for but don't know or have prepared. The check is 10+2x the spell level. With expertise in Arcana the minimum check you can get at level 20 (assuming +5 Int) is 18 this means that you automatically succeed at anything level 4 or lower. And with at least one level in every single casting class you will have access to every classes spell list. So you can cast any cantrip in the game and every spell of 4th level or lower and will have to make a check for higher level spells but you only need to roll a 7 to cast any spell of 7th level (the max slots you have in this build) or lower.

[Khrysaes]

Deleted: See post below

[Kane0]

Artificer (any) 10: 3 cantrips + magic item adept
Wizard (illusion) 3: 3 cantrips + minor illusion and cantrip formulas
Sorcerer (aberrant mind) 1: 4 cantrips + mind sliver
Bard 1: 2 cantrips
Druid 1: 2 cantrips
Cleric (knowledge) 1: 3 cantrips + expertise in Arcana
Warlock (celestial, pact of tome) 3: 2 cantrips+ sacred flame, light and any 3.
Total native 27
This is a lot lower than some of the other people had, however there are a few things that make this build special. Namely magic item adept and arcana expertise. As a level 10 artificer you can make any uncommon item. This would include the Mizzium Apparatus which allows you to make an Arcana check in order to attempt to cast any spell on your classes spell list which you have slots for but don't know or have prepared. The check is 10+2x the spell level. With expertise in Arcana the minimum check you can get at level 20 (assuming +5 Int) is 18 this means that you automatically succeed at anything level 4 or lower. And with at least one level in every single casting class you will have access to every classes spell list. So you can cast any cantrip in the game and every spell of 4th level or lower and will have to make a check for higher level spells but you only need to roll a 7 to cast any spell of 7th level (the max slots you have in this build) or lower.

You have now triggered a thought process I cannot willingly stop.

What stupid things could an Artificer get away with if a DM allowed the 'Replicate Magic Item' infusion list to include other items such as the Mizzium Apparatus and Illusionist's Bracers?
Like for example, any Common tier magic item at level 2, any Uncommon at level 6, any Rare at level 10, any Very Rare at level 14.

Artificers can attune to up to 6 magic items and can have up to 6 infusions at the same time or 8 if they're an armorer...

[Unoriginal]

Several species get cantrips natively, I feel like it'd be better than Variant human as a starter.

[Khrysaes]

You have now triggered a thought process I cannot willingly stop.

What stupid things could an Artificer get away with if a DM allowed the 'Replicate Magic Item' infusion list to include other items such as the Mizzium Apparatus and Illusionist's Bracers?
Like for example, any Common tier magic item at level 2, any Uncommon at level 6, any Rare at level 10, any Very Rare at level 14.

Artificers can attune to up to 6 magic items and can have up to 6 infusions at the same time or 8 if they're an armorer...

Depending on what is allowed,

In Taldorei Campaign Setting, by Green Ronin, there is a feat: Mystic Conflux, increases your attunements slots by 1.

In Exploring Eberron, by Kieth Baker, the Ruinbound dwarf can attune to one symbiote without requiring an attunement slot.

[Khrysaes]

Artificer (any) 10: 3 cantrips + magic item adept
Wizard (illusion) 3: 3 cantrips + minor illusion and cantrip formulas
Sorcerer (aberrant mind) 1: 4 cantrips + mind sliver
Bard 1: 2 cantrips
Druid 1: 2 cantrips
Cleric (knowledge) 1: 3 cantrips + expertise in Arcana
Warlock (celestial, pact of tome) 3: 2 cantrips+ sacred flame, light and any 3.
Total native 27
This is a lot lower than some of the other people had, however there are a few things that make this build special. Namely magic item adept and arcana expertise. As a level 10 artificer you can make any uncommon item. This would include the Mizzium Apparatus which allows you to make an Arcana check in order to attempt to cast any spell on your classes spell list which you have slots for but don't know or have prepared. The check is 10+2x the spell level. With expertise in Arcana the minimum check you can get at level 20 (assuming +5 Int) is 18 this means that you automatically succeed at anything level 4 or lower. And with at least one level in every single casting class you will have access to every classes spell list. So you can cast any cantrip in the game and every spell of 4th level or lower and will have to make a check for higher level spells but you only need to roll a 7 to cast any spell of 7th level (the max slots you have in this build) or lower.

Artificer 10 does not allow you to make any uncommon magic items. It says that when you make uncommon magic items it takes less time and less gold, not that reaching level 10 allows you to make them. Not to say you can't, just that you don't have to be level 10. If you meant make them using the infusion feature, then it also does not say you can make uncommon magic items carte blanch, but gives a specific list.

[Khrysaes]

I am going to further break down a build from earlier:

I looked through my books, there are 46 cantrips published by WOTC, this character can get 40 of them, most of them are 17 Charisma based spells, with an equal 9 Wisdom and Intelligence based spells. 6 are automatically granted. 8 are spell list exclusive, and it can pick 6 spells from any spell list, with some restrictions or considerations.

Race: I chose High Half Elf, for +1 int, +1 wis, and +2 cha, the spell casting stats and 1 more cantrip (wizard).

Class levels: 4 Celestial Warlock/4 Spore druid/2 illusion wizard/4 Spirit Bard/1 arcane cleric/1 artificer/1 aberrant sorcerer/ 3 Swarm Ranger

4 bard(spirits) with a cantrip feat is less level intensive than 1bard/4 rogue, both of which give 5 cantrips

4 rogue and a cantrip feat will give the same number of cantrips as 2 paladin + 2 ranger.

4 druid = 2 druid + 2 paladin.
4 druid = 2 druid + 2 ranger
4 wizard = 2 wizard + 2 paladin
4 wizard = 2 wizard + 2 ranger

So, 4 wizard + 4 druid + 2 cantrip feats give the same number of cantrips as 2 wizard+ 2 druid+ 2 paladin +2 ranger

So, reducing multiclassing, you could do 4 wizard(illusion), 4 druid(spore), 4 bard(spirits), take three feats that give cantrips instead of 2 wizard + 2 druid + 1 bard + 4 rogue + 2 ranger + 2 paladin.
However, when combined with freeing up a level from taking 4 bard instead of 1 bard/4 rogue, you can take 3 Swarmkeeper ranger, which gives mage hand for free, in addition to the two from fighting style (Druidic warrior)



Total cantrips: 40
Race: 1 (from wizard spell list)
Warlock: 8 (3 class, 3 from pact of the tome, 2 from celestial patron) +1 feat
Wizard: 5 (3 class, 1 illusionist)
Druid: 4 (3 class, 1 circle of sports) +1 feat
Bard: 4 (3 class, 1 spirit college) +1 feat
Cleric: 5 (3 class, 2 arcane domain)
Artificer: 2
Ranger: 3 (2 fighting style, 1 swarmkeeper)
Sorcerer: 5 (4 class, 1 aberrant mind)
Three Feats: 4 cantrips
-Magic Initate: 2
Pick 2 of the following: (I picked Aberrant and Sniper)
-Aberrant Dragonmark: 1
-Artificer Initiate: 1
-Spell Sniper: 1

Warlock: Sacred Flame, Light (Celestial)
Bard: Guidance (college of spirits)
Druid: chill touch (Spore)
Ranger: Mage hand (Swarm)
Sorcerer: Mind sliver (Aberrant Mind)
Wizard: minor illusion (Illusionist)
Artificer: None
Bard: Vicious Mockery
Cleric: Thaumaturgy, Word of Radiance
Druid: Druidcraft, Produce Flame, Shillelagh, Primal Savagery
Sorcerer: None
Warlock: Eldritch Blast
Wizard: None


Artificer: 2
Bard: 3
Cleric: 3
Druid: 3
Sorcerer: 5 (4 class, 1 aberrant dragonmark)
Warlock: 3
Wizard: 7 (4 class, 1 race, 2 cleric subclass)
Any*: 6 (3 Warlock, 2 magic initiate*, 1 spell sniper*/**)
*Magic initiate and spell sniper cant choose an artificer spell.
**Spell Sniper must require an attack roll



Con: 1 (aberrant dragon mark)
Int: 7 (4 wizard, 2 artificer, 1 race)
Cha: 17 (8 warlock, 5 sorcerer, 4 bard)
Wis: 12 (5 cleric, 4 druid, 3 ranger)
Any~: 3 (2 magic initiate, 1 spell sniper)
~casting ability chosen when feat is chosen based on spell list


Total Cantrips published by WOTC: 46

Acid Splash
Blade Ward
Chill Touch (Automatically Granted)
Dancing Lights
Druidcraft (Druid Exclusive)
Eldritch Blast (Warlock Exclusive)
Fire Bolt
Friends
Guidance (Automatically Granted)
Light (Automatically Granted)
Mage Hand (Automatically Granted)
Mending
Message
Minor Illusion (Automatically Granted)
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation
Produce Flame (Druid Exclusive)
Ray of Frost
Resistance
Sacred Flame (Automatically Granted)
Shillelagh (Druid Exclusive)
Spare the dying
Thaumaturgy (Cleric Exclusive)
Thorn Whip
True Strike
Vicious Mockery (Bard Exclusive)

Control Flame
Create Bonfire
Frostbite
Gust
Infestation
Magic Stone
Mold Earth
Primal Savagery (Druid Exclusive)
Shape Water
Thunderclap
Toll the Dead
Word of Radiance (Cleric Exclusive)


Booming Blade
Green Flame Blade
Lightning Lure
Mind Sliver
Sword Burst

EGtW: Sapping Sting (Exclusive to chronology and gravity wizards, and Death Clerics)

GGtR: Encode Thoughts (Exlusive to Dimir Operative background)

[Kuulvheysoon]

Artificer (any) 10: 3 cantrips + magic item adept
Wizard (illusion) 3: 3 cantrips + minor illusion and cantrip formulas
Sorcerer (aberrant mind) 1: 4 cantrips + mind sliver
Bard 1: 2 cantrips
Druid 1: 2 cantrips
Cleric (knowledge) 1: 3 cantrips + expertise in Arcana
Warlock (celestial, pact of tome) 3: 2 cantrips+ sacred flame, light and any 3.
Total native 27
This is a lot lower than some of the other people had, however there are a few things that make this build special. Namely magic item adept and arcana expertise. As a level 10 artificer you can make any uncommon item. This would include the Mizzium Apparatus which allows you to make an Arcana check in order to attempt to cast any spell on your classes spell list which you have slots for but don't know or have prepared. The check is 10+2x the spell level. With expertise in Arcana the minimum check you can get at level 20 (assuming +5 Int) is 18 this means that you automatically succeed at anything level 4 or lower. And with at least one level in every single casting class you will have access to every classes spell list. So you can cast any cantrip in the game and every spell of 4th level or lower and will have to make a check for higher level spells but you only need to roll a 7 to cast any spell of 7th level (the max slots you have in this build) or lower.

RAW, I don't think that the Mizzium Apparatus works that way. You don't have any spell slots to cast cantrips out of.

[Mjolnirbear]

I actually did this experiment before, though there are now additional options.

I concluded there were far more cantrips than I actually wanted to take because there is so much overlap.

For instance, you don't need both Sword Burst and Thunderclap.

You don't need Firebolt and Eldritch Blast. In fact, unless you pick up agonizing, you don't really need either. Better get get Shocking Grasp (for melee) and Chill touch (prevent healing).

If you already have Shocking Grasp, you don't really need another melee cantrip like Primal Savagery.

You don't really need Thaumaturgy AND Prestidigitation AND Druidcraft. Pick the one that's the best flavour.

Shillelagh is good for the right build...but you're a caster. You don't want melee, and if you get stuck in melee, Shocking Grasp is better. Unless you're an artificer tank, which I played, and you're still better off with Shocking Grasp if you're Artillerist or an Infusion if you're Armorer or Battlesmith.

Spare the Dying is almost useless, same with Blade Ward and True Strike.

There's a lot of redundancy that can be snipped out easily, which means the amount of cantrips you CAN get is far less relevant than the amount of cantrips that are fun, useful, or unique.

[carkl3000]

RAW, I don't think that the Mizzium Apparatus works that way. You don't have any spell slots to cast cantrips out of.

I think it does. The last sentence of the item description says that the arcana DC if you try to cast a cantrip is 10.

[Khrysaes]

RAW, I don't think that the Mizzium Apparatus works that way. You don't have any spell slots to cast cantrips out of.

Edit: I misread what you wrote. Yes, no slots for cantrips. No, you can use the apparatus for cantrips as it specifies that you can in the item description.

Yes you do, because spell casting classes stack for the spell slots you have, if not the spells you know or can prepare. So while a 5 cleric/5 wizard may only be able to prepare 3rd level spells for each of their spell lists, they would have 5th level spell slots that they could use to upcast those third level spells.

I remember doing this thought process when I first discovered the mizzium apparatus:

Wondrous Item, uncommon (requires attunement by a sorcerer, warlock, or wizard)

Innovation is a dangerous pursuit, at least the way the mages of the Izzet League engage in it. As protection against the risk of an experiment going awry, they have developed a device to help channel and control their magic. This apparatus is a collection of leather straps, flexible tubing, glass cylinders, and plates, bracers, and fittings made from a magic-infused metal alloy called mizzium, all assembled into a harness. The item weighs 8 pounds.

While you are wearing the mizzium apparatus, you can use it as an arcane focus. In addition, you can attempt to cast a spell that you do not know or have prepared. The spell you choose must be on your class’s spell list and of a level for which you have a spell slot, and you must provide the spell’s components.

You expend a spell slot to cast the spell as normal, but before resolving it you must make an Intelligence (Arcana) check. The DC is 10 + twice the level of the spell slot you expend to cast the spell.

On a successful check, you cast the spell as normal, using your spell save DC and spellcasting ability modifier. On a failed check, you cast a different spell from the one you intended. Randomly determine the spell you cast by rolling on the table for the level of the spell slot you expended. If the slot is 6th level or higher, roll on the table for 5th-level spells.

If you try to cast a cantrip you don’t know, the DC for the Intelligence (Arcana) check is 10, and on a failed check, there is no effect."

The interesting parts are as follows, using a 2 Wizard/1 cleric:

"You can attempt to cast a spell that you do not know or have prepared"
I do not have 2nd level cleric or wizard spells prepared, the multiclassing rules in the PHB don't allow this.

"The spell you choose must be on your class’s spell list"
So first the irrefutable part, there is a defined "class spell list" at the end of the PHB, chapter 11: Spellcasting, page 207. Additionally spells are added to the spell list via other books.

However,
This does not define which class owns the spell list that you must choose from. As "class" is singular, it could be read as having the ability to choose from only one class's spell list if you are multiclassed. Or it could be read as only able to choose from one class's spell list at a time.

Notably, it does not mention anything about the class that is used to attune to the item. And while in a situation like 2 Wizard/1 Cleric it is clear which class is used, a 2 Wizard/1 Sorcerer, both of which meet the attunement requirements it is less clear. Sorc and Wiz have a lot of overlap with the spells in their spell lists but a 3 Wiz/1 Warlock is different, as it has 2nd level slots from the wizard, but not 2nd level warlock spells known, and warlocks have 2nd level spells unique to their class.

"and of a level for which you have a spell slot"
As previously established, I have 2nd level slots as 2 Wiz/1 Cleric. So would a 2 Wiz/1 Sorc and 3 Wiz/1 Warlock.

as written and within the limitations of the character, "The spell you choose must be a 1st or 2nd level spell(as there are slots) on your class's spell list" without defining which class. At higher levels, with more slots, the only thing that should change is the spell level selection. So 4 Wizard/1 Cleric would be "The spell you choose must be a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell..."

By RAW, it says "your class's spell list" but doesn't specify which class.

So if you multiclass a 2 paladin(1 caster level)/1 cleric/1 druid/1 warlock/1 bard/1 wizard/13 sorcerer (or some other combination of full and half casters, I think I chose this for the coverage of unique class specific spells)

The way spellcasting classes multiclassing works, you would have the spell slots as an 18th single class. This would mean you would have a MAD caster with a 9th level spell slot, cha to damage, smiting, caster that would have access to every spell in the game so long as they can make the arcana check.

Additionally, with an INT of 20, and expertise in arcana, you have a minimum arcana check of 18, which means that by the apparatus' rule of 'The DC is 10 + twice the level of the spell slot' that you automatically pass any check for a 4th level spell and below, meaning that those spell will never need to be prepared as you can cast them spontaneously by using the apparatus.

[Amnestic]

Additionally, with an INT of 20, and expertise in arcana, you have a minimum arcana check of 18, which means that by the apparatus' rule of 'The DC is 10 + twice the level of the spell slot' that you automatically pass any check for a 4th level spell and below, meaning that those spell will never need to be prepared as you can cast them spontaneously by using the apparatus.

If you take druid to 2nd level and go Star druid, their starry form can let you roll a minimum of 10 on int checks (among other things), so that ups your auto-pass to 27, which is auto-success on anything except 9th level spells, but you can autopass 9th levels with something as simple as Guidance.

[Khrysaes]

If you take druid to 2nd level and go Star druid, their starry form can let you roll a minimum of 10 on int checks (among other things), so that ups your auto-pass to 27, which is auto-success on anything except 9th level spells, but you can autopass 9th levels with something as simple as Guidance.

I was actually just thinking something similar. And, while it is magic item dependent, a ioun stone of mastery could work too. But guidance is easier.

I actually thought of rogue 11 first, with reliable talent. However even with an AT, you can at most get 6th level spell slots, 5th with 2 Pal/11 Rogue, can really be a jack of all trades though with bard for the titular feature, reliable talent, and enough casting classes to get all the unique spells 5th level and below.

I originally took 13 sorc so that I can have 7th level spells prepared, albiet with starry form, that is a bit moot.

[kingcheesepants]

If you take druid to 2nd level and go Star druid, their starry form can let you roll a minimum of 10 on int checks (among other things), so that ups your auto-pass to 27, which is auto-success on anything except 9th level spells, but you can autopass 9th levels with something as simple as Guidance.

Wow, I didn't know about the starry form thing that let you auto roll at least 10 on Int checks. Yeah so If you've got Artificer 10, Druid 2 (stars), Cleric 1 (Knowledge), every other casting class 1. You can make a mizzium apparatus for yourself and be able to cast any spell in the game. The only ones you wouldn't be able to get are 8th-9th because with that many levels in artificer you couldn't pick up those high level spell slots. So I think with the OPs original stipulation of
20th level
No magic items not created by this character directly using artificer class or subclass abilities
All official 5e sourcebooks allowed
Magic Initiate can be taken multiple times
Artificer 10, Stars Druid 2, Knowledge Cleric 1, all other casters 1. Arcana expertise, dragon constellation, mizzium apparatus. Will be able to cast all cantrips and all spells up to 7th level. Which I think makes this the winner of how many cantrips can you get.

[stoutstien]

Could toss on an all purpose tool on the pile for +1 more cantrip

[Chronos]

I did something similar (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?406843-Silly-idea-The-cantripper), back in the days of only PHB+Elemental Evil. There are more cantrips now, but also a few more options for getting them.

And Thunderclap, Sword Burst, and Word of Radiance all do the same damage, in the same area, with the same save, and all have rarely-resisted damage types. But what really puts Word of Radiance above the others is that it doesn't have friendly fire. It's like Spirit Guardians, the cantrip.

[Khrysaes]

Wow, I didn't know about the starry form thing that let you auto roll at least 10 on Int checks. Yeah so If you've got Artificer 10, Druid 2 (stars), Cleric 1 (Knowledge), every other casting class 1. You can make a mizzium apparatus for yourself and be able to cast any spell in the game. The only ones you wouldn't be able to get are 8th-9th because with that many levels in artificer you couldn't pick up those high level spell slots. So I think with the OPs original stipulation of
20th level
No magic items not created by this character directly using artificer class or subclass abilities
All official 5e sourcebooks allowed
Magic Initiate can be taken multiple times
Artificer 10, Stars Druid 2, Knowledge Cleric 1, all other casters 1. Arcana expertise, dragon constellation, mizzium apparatus. Will be able to cast all cantrips and all spells up to 7th level. Which I think makes this the winner of how many cantrips can you get.

Out of curiosity,
why artificer?

In this case you don't need artificer to make a mizzium apparatus.

Unless I am missing something, the artificer level has nothing in regards to creating a mizzium apparatus save a reduction in time and cost.
10 artificer does not let you make a mizzium apparatus using an infusion, unless the DM lets you, because it is not a common item, nor is it on the list of replicable magic items.

Given that, artificer also does not have any unique cantrips, so 10 levels, while not worthless, are not needed.
I actually think you can get rid of a sorcerer level, as I don't think they have unique cantrips.
One could be 2 druid / 1 knowledge cleric /1 bard /1 warlock /1 wizard / 14

In fact, given point buy, 15 points in INT, and a +2 int race 1 knowledge cleric / 1 druid / 1 bard / 1 wizard / 1 warlock
This level 5 character would have 17 INT(+4mod), and +6 to Arcana, and 1 from the roll, for a total of 10, or a 100% chance of casting any cantrip since sorcerer and artificer have no unique cantrips.

2 druid for starry form would only bring benefits for first level or higher spells, and would immediately make 5th level spells a 100% chance of success. As in, level 6 would have 100% chance of success casting any spell in the game from any full caster list EXCEPT chaos orb, sorcerers only unique spell, that they have a spell slot for, which they would have 3rd level spells.

[Unoriginal]

The Hat of Wizardry lets you cast one additional Wizard cantrip once per day, IIRC.

Plus you can use it as a focus for your other cantrips.

[kingcheesepants]

Artificer 10 does not allow you to make any uncommon magic items. It says that when you make uncommon magic items it takes less time and less gold, not that reaching level 10 allows you to make them. Not to say you can't, just that you don't have to be level 10. If you meant make them using the infusion feature, then it also does not say you can make uncommon magic items carte blanch, but gives a specific list.

Oh I totally misread the magic item adept. I was thinking Artificers can make whatever, but actually it just means they save time and money making stuff and without the DM allowing otherwise they only make infusions. Well that really kills my idea of leveraging the power of the mizzium apparatus to cheese your way into having every spell in the game.

Although if you do allow the player to make (or receive) an uncommon item of their choice without needing that many levels in artificer, you could use the mizzium apparatus and have more levels left for a full caster class which would let you cast spells up to 9th level.

[Greywander]

I actually did this experiment before, though there are now additional options.

I concluded there were far more cantrips than I actually wanted to take because there is so much overlap.
While this is true for any typical caster build that always feels starved for cantrips, a build like this can find value in having not only a good cantrip for a particular situation, but the best cantrip for that situation.


For instance, you don't need both Sword Burst and Thunderclap.
Force damage vs. thunder damage, DEX save vs. CON save. Mostly the save type, I'd say. A lot of big monsters have better CON saves, but a lot of little monsters, the type that tend to swarm anyway, have better DEX saves.

If we bring Word of Radiance into the equation, WoR allows you to exclude targets, so you don't hit your allies, but also requires you to see your targets. Thunderclap can be used against invisible enemies, while WoR cannot.


You don't need Firebolt and Eldritch Blast. In fact, unless you pick up agonizing, you don't really need either. Better get get Shocking Grasp (for melee) and Chill touch (prevent healing).
Fire Bolt can start fires, and from 120 feet away. There's utility value in that. With how low our ability scores are, Agonizing Blast isn't a great choice, but Repelling Blast would be.


If you already have Shocking Grasp, you don't really need another melee cantrip like Primal Savagery.
Shocking Grasp has value in being able to prevent reactions. The only value in Primal Savagery is the acid damage (which is rarely resisted, and useful against things like trolls) and the high damage. But if you need something for melee you can just use a saving throw cantrip. Toll the Dead might be your best melee cantrip, if you didn't want something with a useful rider.


You don't really need Thaumaturgy AND Prestidigitation AND Druidcraft. Pick the one that's the best flavour.
They all overlap, but each one has unique effects they can create. Normally it wouldn't be worth it to get more than one, but we have more than enough cantrips to spare.


Shillelagh is good for the right build...but you're a caster. You don't want melee, and if you get stuck in melee, Shocking Grasp is better. Unless you're an artificer tank, which I played, and you're still better off with Shocking Grasp if you're Artillerist or an Infusion if you're Armorer or Battlesmith.
Actually, Shillelagh is useless because of our flat stat spread; our STR and DEX will be about the same as our INT, WIS, or CHA. There's value in having a magic weapon, but you could also just, you know, find a magic weapon. If you're worried about this, a better option is to take Artificer to 2nd level and use an infusion to get a magic weapon. As mentioned above, though, Toll the Dead is still probably your best melee option, though Booming Blade does have a handy rider.


Spare the Dying is almost useless, same with Blade Ward and True Strike.
Again, with as many cantrips as we'll have, we can afford to pick up niche options. Spare the Dying becomes a lot more attractive after a party member bleeds out due to you failing a Medicine check. Blade Ward can be used as an alternative to Dodging when the enemy already has disadvantage or is likely to hit anyway. True Strike... can at least get you advantage on your first attack. Yeah, True Strike is still probably the first one I'd drop.


There's a lot of redundancy that can be snipped out easily, which means the amount of cantrips you CAN get is far less relevant than the amount of cantrips that are fun, useful, or unique.
This is somewhat true, but with so many cantrips you can afford to get the more niche ones. But yes, I'd focus on getting all the bases covered first, then get more niche cantrips, starting with utility and ended with damage cantrips. It can be useful to have a variety of damage cantrips to choose from, but much of the time it won't actually matter that much, so utility has priority.

[Khrysaes]

Oh I totally misread the magic item adept. I was thinking Artificers can make whatever, but actually it just means they save time and money making stuff and without the DM allowing otherwise they only make infusions. Well that really kills my idea of leveraging the power of the mizzium apparatus to cheese your way into having every spell in the game.

Although if you do allow the player to make (or receive) an uncommon item of their choice without needing that many levels in artificer, you could use the mizzium apparatus and have more levels left for a full caster class which would let you cast spells up to 9th level.

I mean, as I said, the mizzium apparatus still works like you expected, it just has not connection to the number of artificer levels you take.

If going ONLY by rarity, a level 2 artificer can make uncommon magic items, and at level 10 they are still unlocking uncommon magic items, while level 14 only has Rare items on the list. If a DM let it be an infusion, I would recommend level 10, but its not in the rules.

That said, again, you can have a mizzium apparatus and/or make magic items with 0 artificer levels, there are no rules for or against it.

So again, 15 int, +2 int race, 1 knowledge cleric / 1 druid /1 wizard / 1 bard /1 warlock would be a level 5 character with a 100% chance of casting any cantrip using the mizzium apparatus. at level 6 and 2 starry druid, for 10 minutes twice per short OR long rest, they have a 100% chance of casting any 5th level spell provided its on one of their class spell lists. At 6th level they only have 3rd level spell slots.

As a thought, headband of intellect, 19 int or a +4 mod, pairs well with a mizzium apparatus

[Khrysaes]

Could toss on an all purpose tool on the pile for +1 more cantrip

You know, I think it is funny that they made the "all purpose tool," and printed it in tasha's at the same time as reprinting the artificer in the same book, yet not adding it to the artificer infusion list.

But yeah, with only 1 level of artificer, and three attunement slots, if I took my earlier build,

Half high elf
4 spore druid/4 celestial warlock/4 spirits bard/ 3 swarm ranger/ 1 arcane cleric /2 illusion wizard/1 aberrant sorcerer/and 1 ARTIFICER,

This character could have 43 cantrips for 8 hours each day, 40 cantrips at all times.

Of course, 2 star druid instead of spore druid, and probably switching out spirits bard(since both star druid and spirit bard get guidance for free) for some other levels such as 2 paladin, 4 wizard, or some nonsense, this character could equip and use the mizizum apparatus, while also having decent spell slots to do so. Not that they need the mizzium for the cantrips at that point.

[HeartfulSmiler]

I did something similar,

Knew I wasn't the first :smalltongue:


There's a lot of redundancy that can be snipped out easily, which means the amount of cantrips you CAN get is far less relevant than the amount of cantrips that are fun, useful, or unique.

But we're nerds, so we can't have fun when we could be maximizing arbitrary useless numbers!



Half high elf
4 spore druid/4 celestial warlock/4 spirits bard/ 3 swarm ranger/ 1 arcane cleric /2 illusion wizard/1 aberrant sorcerer/and 1 ARTIFICER,

This character could have 43 cantrips for 8 hours each day, 40 cantrips at all times.

Impressive work! :smallbiggrin:

Edit: I can't believe I missed arcana cleric and spirits bard :smallfrown:

[stoutstien]

You know, I think it is funny that they made the "all purpose tool," and printed it in tasha's at the same time as reprinting the artificer in the same book, yet not adding it to the artificer infusion list.

But yeah, with only 1 level of artificer, and three attunement slots, if I took my earlier build,

Half high elf
4 spore druid/4 celestial warlock/4 spirits bard/ 3 swarm ranger/ 1 arcane cleric /2 illusion wizard/1 aberrant sorcerer/and 1 ARTIFICER,

This character could have 43 cantrips for 8 hours each day, 40 cantrips at all times.

Of course, 2 star druid instead of spore druid, and probably switching out spirits bard(since both star druid and spirit bard get guidance for free) for some other levels such as 2 paladin, 4 wizard, or some nonsense, this character could equip and use the mizizum apparatus, while also having decent spell slots to do so. Not that they need the mizzium for the cantrips at that point.

Good move not including it actually. It's a pretty big upgrade for spell slinger artificers by using EB and it. Maybe as a lv 6 option but so far there aren't any real infusion "taxes" I'd prefer it stays that way.

*RAW you could use both the tool and EAF for extra pew pew.*

[Khrysaes]

*RAW you could use both the tool and EAF for extra pew pew.*

I do not think they stack.

[stoutstien]

I do not think they stack.

Enhanced arcane focus and the all purpose tools use the "while holding this item..." wording rather than the "when you cast a spell using this item as a spell casting focus casting focus.."

[KorvinStarmast]

Okay, so I've been on this site for a while now, but haven't posted yet, so I figured I'd post an idea I had.

When I saw LudicSavant's warlock build with 9 cantrips, I was impressed. However, I wanted to see if I could get more. This is a pretty good item-less way (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/162416/22566) to get 36 cantrips by level 20.

Magic Initiate can be taken multiple times Ok, since you can't to do that based on how that feat is written, I'll stop here.

[HeartfulSmiler]

Ok, since you can't to do that based on how that feat is written, I'll stop here.

I apologize for the dumb mistake I made :smallfrown:

I won't edit the original post, but I am no longer assuming that. It was a stupid assumption anyway.

Thanks for the link, though!

[Rukelnikov]

There are a couple thing we can do to get more cantrips, they are probably gonna go like :smallamused: -> :smallannoyed: -> :smallmad: (and the last 2 will depend on DM rulings)

The :smallamused:

As per Tasha's wizards can change a wizard cantrip they know every long rest


Cantrip Formulas

You have scribed a set of arcane formulas in your spellbook that you can use to formulate a cantrip in your mind. Whenever you finish a long rest and consult those formulas in your spellbook, you can replace one wizard cantrip you know with another cantrip from the wizard spell list.

Contrary to most of the other cantrip replacing features which specify


Bardic Versatility

Replace one cantrip you learned from this class's Spellcasting feature with another cantrip from the bard spell list.

Wizards (and Artificers) don't have that restriction, so if for instance we learn Mage Hand from Swarmkeeper, we can change it into any wizard cantrip per Cantrip Formulas.

Thus, we only need to make sure we cover all the Cantrips not available to Wizards, and then to have enough remaining cantrips to learn/turn into all the Wizard Cantrips.

The are only 16 non-wizard cantrips, its easy to check that we can take them all(*), so all we care is that we get 46 total cantrips to have each and every one of them (double dipping wizard cantrips like light or mage hand is not a problem)


Druidcraft - Drd 1
Eldritch Blast - Lock 1
Encode Thoughts - Lock 3
Guidance - Art 1
Magic Stone - Lock 1
Primal Savagery - Drd 1
Produce Flame - Rgr 2
Resistance - Art 1
Sacred Flame - Lock 1
Sapping Sting - Lock 3
Shillelagh - Rgr 2
Spare The Dying - Clr 1
Thaumaturgy - Clr 1
Thorn Whip - Lock 3
Vicious Mockery - Brd 1
Word of Radiance - Clr 1

Now as many builds already shown a simple total cantrips could be:

8 - Celestial Tomelock 4
5 - Illusionist 4
3 - Swarmkeeper 4 (with Druidic Warrior)
3 - Arcane Trickster 3
5 - Arcana 1
5 - Aberrant Mind 1
2 - Artificer 1
2 - Bard 1
2 - Druid 1
2 - Magic Initiate
1 - Artificer Initiate
1 - Spell Sniper
And we could get 1 more from race for a total of 40

The :smallannoyed:

We could get 2 more from a Ravnica Background for 42, but we don't need to stoop to those lows, we have lower lows to aim for!

We are gonna get a scroll of Magic Jar (it has unlimited duration), and take over an Uthgardt Shaman, it has Innate Spellcasting with 4 cantrips, this would overwrite our race and background, but net us 43 cantrips.

If your DM rules that the Spellcasting trait of humanoid monsters is not a class feature, take over any of the Volo's Warlocks, they each have 7 cantrips, this is a net gain of 6 cantrips over the single racial one, so now you can have 46 cantrips, thats all there are in the game!

The :smallmad:

There is one more step we can take though, but that road lies madness... I call this forbidden technique... The Cantrhief

Wiz 11 -> Magic Jar into an Aasimar (or anything with a non-class gained wizard cantrip), use Cantrip Formulas to turn it into a different Wizard cantrip, leave the body, now what? Nothing in the rules would make it go back to the cantrip it was before, so...

Does the host creature keep the new cantrip?

If it doesn't => Yay we found a way to erase cantrip knowledge from humanoids (and more combining this with other shenannigans)

And btw what happened to that cantrip? Is it lost in the ether? Do WE get to keep the new one?

If it does keep it => Yay we can use this method to turn every Aasimar's Light cantrip into BB or GFB, racial versatility has risen yet again, Yuan-ti now come with Magic Resistance and BB!!

We can take it another step further... but I haven't perfected it yet... it shall be revealed if I ever manage to do it.

[KorvinStarmast]

I apologize for the dumb mistake I made :smallfrown: {snip]
Thanks for the link, though! No need to apologize, it takes (I think) a detailed reading of the feat rules to realize that only one feat (elemental adept) can be taken more than once. I personally love the 'how many cantrips can I get?" concept since the chance to get a lot of cantrips makes almost all of the utility cantrips available. One of these days I am going to make a character that can do this, and will for sure get a level in Warlock (celestial) and Cleric (Arcana) early since I like both of those classes. With a single ASI (probably at Warlock 4 so that I can get Tome Pact) I am hopeful that the chararacter is playable through all of Tier 2.

[Greywander]

There is one more step we can take though, but that road lies madness... I call this forbidden technique... The Cantrhief

Wiz 11 -> Magic Jar into an Aasimar (or anything with a non-class gained wizard cantrip), use Cantrip Formulas to turn it into a different Wizard cantrip, leave the body, now what? Nothing in the rules would make it go back to the cantrip it was before, so...
Since when do aasimar get wizard cantrips? Heck, their spellcasting ability is even Charisma, not Intelligence. Thematically this is closer to sorcery than anything else, as it's an innate magical ability. Just because they learn a cantrip that also happens to be on the wizard list doesn't make it a cantrip. If you take a level of cleric and learn Light and Mending, those are cleric cantrips, not wizard cantrips, even though they're on the wizard list. But no, most racial cantrips and spells are untyped, not tied to a specific class.

There is one exception, however: the high elf. Because their cantrip is specifically chosen from the wizard list, it is a wizard cantrip. The same is true for EKs and ATs; their spells, including cantrips, are wizard spells, despite the fact that they are not wizards.

All that said, I would rule that this wouldn't work. It is specifically being an elf that grants you an extra wizard cantrip. Once you stop being an elf, you lose access to that cantrip. It is interesting that you would be able to change it, but only if you're a wizard. If I were the DM, I'd probably have the cantrip revert back to what it originally was if they body returned to the original owner. So no stealing cantrips from elves, nor changing what their cantrip is for them.

It's an interesting idea, but it requires the DM to get on board with a lot of questionable interpretations of the rules. I won't say it's not RAW, as I don't know that RAW actually says definitively how this is handled, but a common sense ruling wouldn't allow it work. Doing otherwise leads down a path of madness. (The Reincarnate spell has similar issues, since it can change your race. What happens to things like racial skills or other things that are clearly "learned" as part of that culture rather than being genetic? Arguably, the high elf cantrip is also a "learned" ability...)

[Khrysaes]

There is one exception, however: the high elf. Because their cantrip is specifically chosen from the wizard list, it is a wizard cantrip. The same is true for EKs and ATs; their spells, including cantrips, are wizard spells, despite the fact that they are not wizards.

All that said, I would rule that this wouldn't work. It is specifically being an elf that grants you an extra wizard cantrip. Once you stop being an elf, you lose access to that cantrip. It is interesting that you would be able to change it, but only if you're a wizard. If I were the DM, I'd probably have the cantrip revert back to what it originally was if they body returned to the original owner. So no stealing cantrips from elves, nor changing what their cantrip is for them.

It's an interesting idea, but it requires the DM to get on board with a lot of questionable interpretations of the rules. I won't say it's not RAW, as I don't know that RAW actually says definitively how this is handled, but a common sense ruling wouldn't allow it work. Doing otherwise leads down a path of madness. (The Reincarnate spell has similar issues, since it can change your race. What happens to things like racial skills or other things that are clearly "learned" as part of that culture rather than being genetic? Arguably, the high elf cantrip is also a "learned" ability...)


RAW, it says "You have scribed a set of arcane formulas in your spellbook that you can use to formulate a cantrip in your mind. Whenever you finish a long rest and consult those formulas in your spellbook, you can replace one wizard cantrip you know with another cantrip from the wizard spell list."

Therefore, I would read it one of two ways.
Specifically, the difference being if you require the spellbook or not.

Mechanically, you are simply replacing one wizard cantrip for one on the wizard spell list.

However, it does specify that you consult a formula in the spellbook, notably, it is not the cantrip in the spellbook, but another formula used to replace the cantrip.

Therefore, if it specifies wizard cantrip, such High Elf, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, or another source (Magical training?), then it should work.

However, those three sources say that you learn a cantrip from the wizard spell list, not that they are wizard cantrips. Notably, they also don't change the type like bard's magical secrets, where it says "The chosen spells count as bard spells for you"

[Greywander]

However, those three sources say that you learn a cantrip from the wizard spell list, not that they are wizard cantrips.
My understanding was that when you learn a spell from a specific spell list, that makes it a class spell for that class, e.g. a spell learned from the wizard list is a wizard spell by default. Now that I look for a rules reference, I can't find one. Does anyone know if there's a specific rules reference that clarifies this?

It's definitely true that a spell being on a list isn't sufficient to make it a class spell. Most spells are on more than one list. It mostly doesn't matter except when you have a feature that only interacts with spells from a specific class, e.g. the cleric's Potent Spellcasting which only affects cleric spells (this is why Arcana cleric can be so strong, while another cleric dipping wizard is less so).

[Theodoxus]

Edit: I misread what you wrote. Yes, no slots for cantrips. No, you can use the apparatus for cantrips as it specifies that you can in the item description.

Yes you do, because spell casting classes stack for the spell slots you have, if not the spells you know or can prepare. So while a 5 cleric/5 wizard may only be able to prepare 3rd level spells for each of their spell lists, they would have 5th level spell slots that they could use to upcast those third level spells.

I remember doing this thought process when I first discovered the mizzium apparatus:

Wondrous Item, uncommon (requires attunement by a sorcerer, warlock, or wizard)

Innovation is a dangerous pursuit, at least the way the mages of the Izzet League engage in it. As protection against the risk of an experiment going awry, they have developed a device to help channel and control their magic. This apparatus is a collection of leather straps, flexible tubing, glass cylinders, and plates, bracers, and fittings made from a magic-infused metal alloy called mizzium, all assembled into a harness. The item weighs 8 pounds.

While you are wearing the mizzium apparatus, you can use it as an arcane focus. In addition, you can attempt to cast a spell that you do not know or have prepared. The spell you choose must be on your class’s spell list and of a level for which you have a spell slot, and you must provide the spell’s components.

You expend a spell slot to cast the spell as normal, but before resolving it you must make an Intelligence (Arcana) check. The DC is 10 + twice the level of the spell slot you expend to cast the spell.

On a successful check, you cast the spell as normal, using your spell save DC and spellcasting ability modifier. On a failed check, you cast a different spell from the one you intended. Randomly determine the spell you cast by rolling on the table for the level of the spell slot you expended. If the slot is 6th level or higher, roll on the table for 5th-level spells.

If you try to cast a cantrip you don’t know, the DC for the Intelligence (Arcana) check is 10, and on a failed check, there is no effect."

The interesting parts are as follows, using a 2 Wizard/1 cleric:

"You can attempt to cast a spell that you do not know or have prepared"
I do not have 2nd level cleric or wizard spells prepared, the multiclassing rules in the PHB don't allow this.

"The spell you choose must be on your class’s spell list"
So first the irrefutable part, there is a defined "class spell list" at the end of the PHB, chapter 11: Spellcasting, page 207. Additionally spells are added to the spell list via other books.

However,
This does not define which class owns the spell list that you must choose from. As "class" is singular, it could be read as having the ability to choose from only one class's spell list if you are multiclassed. Or it could be read as only able to choose from one class's spell list at a time.

Notably, it does not mention anything about the class that is used to attune to the item. And while in a situation like 2 Wizard/1 Cleric it is clear which class is used, a 2 Wizard/1 Sorcerer, both of which meet the attunement requirements it is less clear. Sorc and Wiz have a lot of overlap with the spells in their spell lists but a 3 Wiz/1 Warlock is different, as it has 2nd level slots from the wizard, but not 2nd level warlock spells known, and warlocks have 2nd level spells unique to their class.

"and of a level for which you have a spell slot"
As previously established, I have 2nd level slots as 2 Wiz/1 Cleric. So would a 2 Wiz/1 Sorc and 3 Wiz/1 Warlock.

as written and within the limitations of the character, "The spell you choose must be a 1st or 2nd level spell(as there are slots) on your class's spell list" without defining which class. At higher levels, with more slots, the only thing that should change is the spell level selection. So 4 Wizard/1 Cleric would be "The spell you choose must be a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell..."

By RAW, it says "your class's spell list" but doesn't specify which class.

So if you multiclass a 2 paladin(1 caster level)/1 cleric/1 druid/1 warlock/1 bard/1 wizard/13 sorcerer (or some other combination of full and half casters, I think I chose this for the coverage of unique class specific spells)

The way spellcasting classes multiclassing works, you would have the spell slots as an 18th single class. This would mean you would have a MAD caster with a 9th level spell slot, cha to damage, smiting, caster that would have access to every spell in the game so long as they can make the arcana check.

Additionally, with an INT of 20, and expertise in arcana, you have a minimum arcana check of 18, which means that by the apparatus' rule of 'The DC is 10 + twice the level of the spell slot' that you automatically pass any check for a 4th level spell and below, meaning that those spell will never need to be prepared as you can cast them spontaneously by using the apparatus.

Well, the Warlock slots are different from other casters, so you couldn't use the Apparatus to cast high level Warlock only spells, because you technically don't have the slots. And, I hope you weren't including those Warlock levels in your total long rest slot allocation.


Edit: I can't believe I missed arcana cleric and spirits bard :smallfrown:

I'd go Lore Bard 6 for 3 extra cantrips via Magical Secrets...

In no particular order:

Celestial Tomelock 4/Lore Bard 6/Illusion Wizard 2/Arcana Cleric 1/Spore Druid 2/Artificer 1/Sorcerer 1/Swarmkeeper Ranger 3

This would grant you:
Warlock: 3 base, light and sacred flame from Celestial, 3 additional from tome for 8 total.
Bard: 3 base, 3 additional from Lore for 6 more (14 total).
Wizard: 3 base, minor illusion from Illusion for 4 more (18 total).
Cleric: 3 base, 2 additional Wizard cantrips from Arcana for 5 more (23 total).
Druid: 2 base, chill touch from Spores for 3 more (26 total).
Artificer: 2 base (28 total).
Sorcerer: 4 base, mind sliver from Aberrant for 5 more (33 total).
Ranger: 2 Druid (Druidic Warrior), mage hand from Swarmkeeper for 3 more (36 total).

Start vHuman for Magic Initiate (2 cantrips from any (though same) list (38 total).
ASI for Warlock: Spell Sniper (39 total)
ASI for Bard: Artificer Initiate (40 total)

That's the best I got...

[Rukelnikov]

My understanding was that when you learn a spell from a specific spell list, that makes it a class spell for that class, e.g. a spell learned from the wizard list is a wizard spell by default. Now that I look for a rules reference, I can't find one. Does anyone know if there's a specific rules reference that clarifies this?

I did, and its not a simple matter.


It's definitely true that a spell being on a list isn't sufficient to make it a class spell.

This is what I contend, IMO its quite the opposite, a spell being on a list is the only guide we have to what it means a spell being a class spell.

There are many references to "Class spell" during the book. The first one appears under Bard's Class Features, lets break it down:


You know four 1st-level spells of your choice from the bard spell list.

Here it clearly points you to the Bard's spell list to indicate which spells you can choose.


You learn an additional bard spell of your choice at each level except 12th, 16th, 19th, and 20th. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.

This part never points you to the Bard's spell list, it instead says "you learn an additional bard spell", which is a term that is not defined anywhere (that I could find at least). So "bard spell" and "from the bards spell list" seem to be interchangeable.

And the most important point here is that a spell is (or isn't) a bard spell regardless of if anyone knows such spell, because they need the classification beforehand so we know whether they are eligible or not. Saying "bard spells are those you know as a bard" would mean Bards wouldn't be able to learn any new spells since the new spells are not "chosen from the bard's spell list" but rather just need to be "bard spells".


Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the bard spells you know and replace it with another spell from the bard spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

Here it already starts getting tricky, since it uses both terms, "one OF the bard spells" seems to make reference to the so called "bard spells" from the previous paragraph, but I guess almost anyone would agree the 4 1st level spells you get at 1st level are also viable selections for this, meaning "spells from the bard spell list" are considered "bard spells".

Soon after that we get Ritual Casting, and here again, things get even muddier


You can cast any bard spell you know as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag.

So, notice the difference in wording, in the replacing part it says "one OF the bard spells you know", but here it says "ANY bard spell you know".

Let's take Animal Messenger for instance. After level 1 a Bard learns "bard spells", if we assume that to mean "spells on the bard spell list" then they can choose AM, which in turn means AM is a bard spell regardless of whether our bard picks it or not, otherwise they wouldn't even be able to select it.

Now, lets say we don't get AM as bards and MC with Ranger, and as Rangers we learn AM (the wording for Ranger's "spells known of 1st and higher" is a mirror of the Bard's). Bard's ritual casting says you can cast "ANY bard spell", and as we've shown, AM MUST be a bard spell, otherwise no bard could ever learn it, and thus we should be able to cast it as a ritual, even if we don't know it from our Bard levels, due to the wording of Bard's ritual casting (it wouldn't work for a Wizard for instance since the spell must be in the spellbook).

As I said at the beginning, its not a simple matter.

The strictest of readings would mean bards (and all spontaneous spellcasters) never learn spells after level 1, since "class spell" is never defined.

Since we know thats not the case, we must make an assumption for that not to be the case. The most common one (I'd even say 100% of players with some system knowledge assume this), is interpreting "bard spell" in the second paragraph of "Spells Known[...]" to be "spells from the bard spell list". Without further assumptions, that would allow a bard to ritual cast AM learnt as a ranger, and a Wizard to retrain cantrips learnt from other classes (Cantrip Formulas is not part of the spellcasting trait, thus its unaffected by the MC rules which only overwrite the "Spellcasting" feature.)

I don't think the wizard thing is RAI, but it definitely seems to be RAW (at least for changing a racial wizard cantrip into another one). The bard ritual casting may be RAI idk, but that's how I rule it at my table, and I also think its RAW Its not RAW, ritual casting is listed under Spellcasting, and thus bard spellcasting doesn't see ranger spells known.

EDIT: There are more things involved but I don't wanna make the wall of text even higher.

[JeffreyGator]

I feel a bit bad after reading this that I have so few cantrips on my current character.

Tiefling = 1
Divine Soul Sorcerer 5 = 5
Celestial Warlock 9 = 8 (fire bolt and green flame shillelagh instead of eldritch blast)
Arcana Cleric 1 = 5

Spell Sniper = 20
Ring of shooting Stars = +1

I could use a few more but that might start to feel redundant.

I am considering a feat swap to take Telekinetic and changing from Divine soul to aberrant mind and that will give me 2 more.

People have asked about how it plays - for the first couple of tiers I was pretty good at using 8-10 cantrips in a 4 hour session. Recently it has fallen off a bit from that but it is still pretty playable.

My table also runs into issues with how much a cantrip can be abused and rule zero many shape water, minor illusion and mold earth shenanigans especially as we approach tier 4. The wizard in our party is not at all jealous of my character's utility since 8th level spells.