Hawkeye on Disney+

[Palanan]

Now we're talkin':



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VYb3B1ETlk



Humor, action, and Steve Rogers: The Musical. :smalltongue:

MCU Hawkeye has always seemed like a very unpretentious hero, where pretty much everything is above his pay grade but he suits up and goes in anyway. Getting that sense here, and loving every second of it.

At this point, the MCU series on Disney+ have a bit of a wobbly track record, but if Hawkeye gives us anything like what we see here, I'll be very much onboard.

[Psyren]

Eugh, I hate christmas movies/shows...

I was mostly excited for FATWS because of Zemo, which turned out to be prescient on my part as he was the best thing about that show. I'm not seeing any such villain draw here, though Kate looks like she'll be fun at least.

[ecarden]

Hey, it's another chance to address what was going on during the Snap/Blip/whatever! I'm sure we aren't going to treat it exactly like every other standard setting with no addressing the massive genocide of half the population.

ETA: To be fair, I am actually looking forward to this. The trailer was much better than I expected.

[Thrudd]

Yeah! It's the tracksuits, broh! Can't wait to hear their accents. I had hoped Matt Fraction's series would get adapted into the series somehow, especially that part. In the MCU, it makes sense if it's Kate who lives in the apartment building. I hope some of the neighbors make an appearance, too. I want somebody to say "Hawk Guy".

[Ramza00]

So two of the quick stills are

“Dear Chris Evans⃫ Hansen”

[Psyren]

So two of the quick stills are

“Dear Chris Evans⃫ Hansen”

Looks like the musical they go see will be called "Rogers!" and I fully expect it to launch a thousand memes.

[DigoDragon]

I would be interested in a Hawkeye comedy adventure. I think the better MCU movies/shows are the ones that don't try to be all seriousness. This could be a pretty fun series, so I'll cautiously wait and check it out.

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah! It's the tracksuits, broh! Can't wait to hear their accents. I had hoped Matt Fraction's series would get adapted into the series somehow, especially that part. In the MCU, it makes sense if it's Kate who lives in the apartment building. I hope some of the neighbors make an appearance, too. I want somebody to say "Hawk Guy".

You can't really adapt the Fraction series directly onto the MCU because it's based on Clint having a personality, which Jeremy Renner's version doesn't.

[Peelee]

Eugh, I hate christmas movies

First Blood. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. Die Hard. Lethal Weapon. In Bruges.:smalltongue:

[Anteros]

It looks a lot better than most of the crap the MCU has been shoveling out lately to be honest.

[Psyren]

First Blood. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. Die Hard. Lethal Weapon. In Bruges.:smalltongue:

1 out of 5 ain't bad

[Dragonus45]

Hawkeye has been the member of the avengers that the MCU has done the most dirty, so I really hope this turns into him getting more screen time in general going forward.

[Psyren]

Hawkeye has been the member of the avengers that the MCU has done the most dirty, so I really hope this turns into him getting more screen time in general going forward.

Given that the show is about introducing his successor, I think we can count ourselves lucky if he even survives it :smalltongue:

[Dragonus45]

Given that the show is about introducing his successor, I think we can count ourselves lucky if he even survives it :smalltongue:

Nah, he won't die here. I could see him finally retiring but it seems unlikely they kill him off in a TV series after the incident in Endgame, his arc is probably instead going to be about getting over his survivors guilt and accepting Natasha's sacrifice. Killing him off in this would be bass akwards. But the entire last season of Supernatural exists so really I have lost faith in media as a concept.

Honestly I'm not sure how they will fit what we have seen here in while also following up the reveal at the end of Black Widow without the series being too loaded up though and I hope that means we get to see him in the inevitable next Black Widow movie instead.

[Wraith]

I'm looking forward to it. I like the tone that has been set in the trailer - everyone is in *awe* of Hawkeye, and that feels very refreshing.

I'm pretty tired of the "over-hyped protagonist/hyper-competent sidekick" thing that tends to pop up more often than not.
Loki had it, with the titular character consistently being left bewildered by the TVA and by Sylvie, and there were shades of it in Falcon & The Winter Soldier as everyone spent their time making fun of Sam and dunking on him for "just" being a back-up Avenger. The new He-Man is barely in his own show while the majority of the series focuses on Tila, and Lucifer Morningstar is consistently played not just as comedy, but as a joke.

But the best parts of the shows above are when the main character finally gets their act together and does something iconic. This show looks like Hawkeye being the star of a show called "Hawkeye" in which Hawkeye gets to be the hero and do cool stuff consistently, instead of making him a dork who is playing catch-up to the new kid. Logan was great and had a similar vibe - X-23 was a good character with her own moments of glory, but what really made the movie was the Wolverine one-upping everyone else instead of stumbling around, being a clown and having everyone else look great by just *saying* how cool he used to be.


First Blood. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. Die Hard. Lethal Weapon. In Bruges.:smalltongue:

Batman Returns :smallbiggrin:

[Ramza00]

You can't really adapt the Fraction series directly onto the MCU because it's based on Clint having a personality, which Jeremy Renner's version doesn't.


Hawkeye has been the member of the avengers that the MCU has done the most dirty, so I really hope this turns into him getting more screen time in general going forward.

I do not like MCU Clint nor do I like Jeremy Renner in many (but not all movies) he is in.

But MCU Clint has no personality due to Ultimate Universe Clint having no personality. They took all the things that are fun about the main universe Clint, the 616 version, and removed it to create a generic and boring action hero who is not a meta human just an action character with a bow. This to me is boo, but I understand the 2011 and 2012 choices of giving Clint no personality.

—————

Sidenote it seems they are going to bring one of the 616 traits to Clint in this version of the MCU, his disability.

I spy Jeremy Renner having something in his ear either an earpiece or a hearing aid. In 616 comics Clint is partially / fully deaf depending on when we are talking about in his 57 year comic history. There are multiple origins (child abuse when he was a kid, two different comic fights), and sometimes he gets better much like Professor X in his wheelchair. Likewise how good Clint hides it from his teammates and his enemies is different throughout the times, and whether Clint uses artificial prosthesis like iron man tech hearing aids is also depending on the writer and era.

Based off the logo art and some interviews already given we know this Christmas Hawkeye is taking ideas from the Aja and Fraction’s run of Hawkeye (2012 to 2015, it is viewable for free if you are a Marvel Unlimited subscriber but also there are collected trades of it now) that is one of the best Marvel comics of the last decade. In this version Clint is deaf and uses iron man tech. His deafness is recent once again for in the 00s, the Fantastic Four reality warping kid, Franklin Richards healed Clint by accident for Franklin did some Alternate Universe stuff and when bringing him back the kid with the powers of a god did not know Clint was deaf. Well right before the Aja and Fraction run Clint is injured by a villain again.

As you can tell I am excited :smalltongue: (but that is because I am a Kate Bishop fan :smallamused: )

[Psyren]

Nah, he won't die here. I could see him finally retiring but it seems unlikely they kill him off in a TV series after the incident in Endgame, his arc is probably instead going to be about getting over his survivors guilt and accepting Natasha's sacrifice. Killing him off in this would be bass akwards. But the entire last season of Supernatural exists so really I have lost faith in media as a concept.

Honestly I'm not sure how they will fit what we have seen here in while also following up the reveal at the end of Black Widow without the series being too loaded up though and I hope that means we get to see him in the inevitable next Black Widow movie instead.

They introduced a major phase 4 villain (possibly two? Maybe even three??) in a TV series, so all bets are off I'd say. Either way, dead or retired, I don't expect him to keep the mantle (at least not actively) when this is over. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tawnOvY-DcM)

***

Anyway I did some digging as far as the potential villains for this one and I'm getting a bit more hyped. There are no less than 5:

- The most obvious one is Swordsman (Jacques Duquesne), who is confirmed to be played by Tony Dalton. In the comics, Swordsman was Hawkeye's mentor, a circus performer turned crime boss who has oscillated between villain and antihero a few times.

- We of course know Yelena Belova will make an appearance, and will likely start off as an antagonist due to Val's manipulation.

- The woman who opens her eyes at 1:24 is rumored to be Echo (Maya Lopez), a Daredevil villain with Taskmaster-like powers. She is deaf and can copy enemy movements that she sees. She was also the previous wearer of the Ronin mantle in the comics before Clint took it up, which could explain where he got the suit (and why she might have beef with him.)

- The mooks that are peppered throughout the trailer appear to be the Tracksuit Gang, the villains from the famous Fraction Hawkeye comic where the show gets its logo. They are most known for ending every other sentence with "bro" which the show appears to be nodding to given the slogan on the truck that Kate blows up at 1:35.

- These last two hint at a secret villain - in the past, both the Tracksuit Gang and Echo have worked for none other than the Kingpin. If he shows up here - hopefully played by Vincent D'Onofrio again - that would be amazing!

[Peelee]

1 out of 5 ain't bad

That you've seen, or that you've liked?

[Dragonus45]

I do not like MCU Clint nor do I like Jeremy Renner in many (but not all movies) he is in.

But MCU Clint has no personality due to Ultimate Universe Clint having no personality. They took all the things that are fun about the main universe Clint, the 616 version, and removed it to create a generic and boring action hero who is not a meta human just an action character with a bow. This to me is boo, but I understand the 2011 and 2012 choices of giving Clint no personality.


Like I said, the MCU has done him dirty.


They introduced a major phase 4 villain (possibly two? Maybe even three??) in a TV series, so all bets are off I'd say. Either way, dead or retired, I don't expect him to keep the mantle (at least not actively) when this is over. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tawnOvY-DcM)

***

True, but the context between those two things is very very different so some bets are probably still waiting to pay out.

[Psyren]

That you've seen, or that you've liked?

That I've liked (Die Hard.) Lethal Weapon wasn't bad, but the sequel stuck with me far better (its plot premise of diplomatic immunity has been widely lampooned. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXf7HC7iYEY)) The rest of those get a resounding meh.



True, but the context between those two things is very very different so some bets are probably still waiting to pay out.

We'll see.

Narratively you have to answer the question, if Clint is still "active" then how will Kate get her time to shine? Plus the time is ripe for Clint to step aside, not only having saved the world and regained his family but comfortable in the knowledge that there's another Hawkeye taking up his mantle.

Third option however: if he neither dies nor retires, I'd expect Clint to take on the Nick Fury role for the YA.

[Rodin]

I'll be annoyed if he doesn't die, retire, or get kicked upstairs. That's not because I have anything against Hawkeye. It's a matter of completing the narrative arc set forth by Infinity War/Endgame for the original Avengers.

All of the Avengers had a war weariness to them in one way or another. Tony had PTSD and a ton of guilt over Sokovia. Cap had general weariness over always having to be the paragon and never getting to live his own life. Banner/Hulk had to deal with his split personality and Hulk in particular grew a lot during Thor Ragnarok. Thor himself had lost everything and had become a death seeker, trying to get himself killed in battle. Natasha tried to hold the Avengers together post-Snap and was pretty sick of it by the time Ant-Man showed up. Hawkeye first retired then went trying to get himself killed during Endgame.

Endgame ended all those stories. Tony and Natasha died, Cap gave up the shield and went back in time to live as a civilian, Banner/Hulk merged and became a well balanced individual focusing on scientific research. Thor gave up his crown and went off to find himself. And Hawkeye returned to his farm.

That's where I would have ended it. However, there were three things that the movie franchise demanded happen.

Both Black Widow and Hawkeye never had a movie. Black Widow in particular was cited as a larger pattern of the MCU not providing enough focus on female superheroes, which is perfectly fair. So Black Widow gets a movie, and Hawkeye gets a TV series. Cool.

The third was that Thor needs a successor, hence Thor Love and Thunder. I'm very much hoping that L&T will retire Chris Hemsworth as part of the changing of the guard.

The TV series really looks like it's going to introduce Hawkeye's successor. That gives us a good number of them - Spiderman for Iron Man, Falcon for Cap, Thor's successor (Jane Foster, Valkyrie, or somebody else), and Hawkeye's successor. Banner/Hulk is likely to be succeeded by another sciency type, possibly someone like Shuri or introducing Reed Richards. That only leaves Black Widow, where I won't speculate since I haven't seen her movie yet (stupid Covid). It seems reasonable that they'll find somebody though.

[Psyren]

That only leaves Black Widow, where I won't speculate since I haven't seen her movie yet (stupid Covid). It seems reasonable that they'll find somebody though.

They did :smallsmile:


Spiderman for Iron Man

We're getting Riri Williams (https://disneyplusoriginals.disney.com/show/ironheart) who will be a much more direct successor to Tony. Don't get me wrong I love Pete, but he's already a bit too tied to Iron Man in the MCU as it is, plus there's all the awkwardness of Marvel technically benefiting a competitor and thus delaying when they finally get all their toys back.

My personal theory is that after this trilogy/phase is complete, Tom Holland's spidey is going to get put on a shelf somewhere and Marvel will leave him alone, long enough so that Sony messes up with it enough times that they either decide to give it back willingly or drop down in value to acquisition distance the way Fox did with too many Mutants/FF screw-ups.

Iron Lad, who is a Kang variant and related to Reed Richards given all the shenanigans happening there.

[Ramza00]

The third was that Thor needs a successor, hence Thor Love and Thunder. I'm very much hoping that L&T will retire Chris Hemsworth as part of the changing of the guard.

Do not quote me on this, but I thought I heard we are getting Hemsworth in the Guardians of the Galaxy 3 movie? Which takes places after Love and Thunder?

I say sending Hemsworth to space is a good narrative choice, for he is a God and while he cares about Earth his relationship with it is small. Jane, a couple other friends, and the 5 years between Ragnarok and Endgame when he had depression. Midgard to Thor is merely strangers he has a duty to protect, yet simultaneously he does not have the right to rule Humans, and Noblesse Oblige* of ruling humans directly like Loki, Hela, and earlier Odin considered is a trap. (*There is better ways to describe what I am saying, but I am avoiding those words for they are political words.) Thor is not a colonialist and his first 3 movies deal with the themes of rulership but also colonialism and the idea of protection and when it becomes something else.

There is lots of space, and Hemsworth can be a Guardian. Of course what he will do after GOTG3 is up to him and disney. The actor will eventually age, his salary may be too much for what Disney wants to pay him so they may end Hemsworth arc after that movie, or they may put him in a narrative vault where Disney can use the actor but also do not expect to see much of him on earth. In sum who knows? But it is fun to talk about.

[DigoDragon]

I'll be annoyed if he doesn't die, retire, or get kicked upstairs.

Of the options, I'm hoping he gets to retire and enjoy time with his family. The dude I think earned it.

Killing him off in what feels like a Christmas special would be a bold move by Disney. o.o

[Anteros]

Do not quote me on this, but I thought I heard we are getting Hemsworth in the Guardians of the Galaxy 3 movie? Which takes places after Love and Thunder?

I say sending Hemsworth to space is a good narrative choice, for he is a God and while he cares about Earth his relationship with it is small. Jane, a couple other friends, and the 5 years between Ragnarok and Endgame when he had depression. Midgard to Thor is merely strangers he has a duty to protect, yet simultaneously he does not have the right to rule Humans, and Noblesse Oblige* of ruling humans directly like Loki, Hela, and earlier Odin considered is a trap. (*There is better ways to describe what I am saying, but I am avoiding those words for they are political words.) Thor is not a colonialist and his first 3 movies deal with the themes of rulership but also colonialism and the idea of protection and when it becomes something else.

There is lots of space, and Hemsworth can be a Guardian. Of course what he will do after GOTG3 is up to him and disney. The actor will eventually age, his salary may be too much for what Disney wants to pay him so they may end Hemsworth arc after that movie, or they may put him in a narrative vault where Disney can use the actor but also do not expect to see much of him on earth. In sum who knows? But it is fun to talk about.

Asgard is on Earth now, isn't it?

[DigoDragon]

Asgard is on Earth now, isn't it?

The survivors of Ragnarok are, at least. Got themselves a nice little village setup.

[Ramza00]

Asgard is on Earth now, isn't it?

Yes but Thor is finding himself and having either his midlife crisis and going on a quest / journey, or he is in his godlike twenties, depend on how you look at it. Thus Guardians stuff.

[BRC]

I'm looking forward to it. I like the tone that has been set in the trailer - everyone is in *awe* of Hawkeye, and that feels very refreshing.

I'm pretty tired of the "over-hyped protagonist/hyper-competent sidekick" thing that tends to pop up more often than not.
Loki had it, with the titular character consistently being left bewildered by the TVA and by Sylvie, and there were shades of it in Falcon & The Winter Soldier as everyone spent their time making fun of Sam and dunking on him for "just" being a back-up Avenger. The new He-Man is barely in his own show while the majority of the series focuses on Tila, and Lucifer Morningstar is consistently played not just as comedy, but as a joke.

But the best parts of the shows above are when the main character finally gets their act together and does something iconic. This show looks like Hawkeye being the star of a show called "Hawkeye" in which Hawkeye gets to be the hero and do cool stuff consistently, instead of making him a dork who is playing catch-up to the new kid. Logan was great and had a similar vibe - X-23 was a good character with her own moments of glory, but what really made the movie was the Wolverine one-upping everyone else instead of stumbling around, being a clown and having everyone else look great by just *saying* how cool he used to be.



So, if they're taking their cues from the Matt Fraction comic as far as tone, Clint is certainly GOOD, he just makes bad decisions and gets beat up a lot. A key theme to the comic was that Hawkeye is quite good at what he does, but he's just...a guy, and there are hard limits to what Hawkeye's skillset can fix.


Now, Kate doesn't really "Outshine" Clint as far as Avenger stuff, she comes across looking better because she makes better life choices/ is rich enough to dodge most of the consequences.

Here, they have Kate set up as some sort of Hawkeye Fangirl, which I can't say a I love. In the Comic their dynamic worked very well as one of asymettric Equals. Clint was far more experienced, but was worn out and demoralized. Kate had the skills, but didn't screw her own life up that much quite yet, and so even if they were theoretically mentor-and-student, it worked out to a more equal partnership.

Thad said, I very much doubt that the Show is going to follow the Comic that directly, but they're likely to get the Theme together.


I'd expect to see Clint get beaten, battered, and demoralized. The idea behind the Tracksuit Draculas (Bro Bro Seriously Bro) is that they're nothing special as far as comic book baddies go. They've got baseball bats and machine pistols. Their big plot is a shady-but-legal real estate deal. But Archery Skills don't actually make you that good at bringing down organized crime.

The theme here seems to be that during The Blip, when Clint put on the Ronin suit and murdered a bunch of criminals, he made a giant pile of enemies, and then when the other half of their organizations came back, they're coming after him. Which I guess plays into the "Bad Decisions" and "Archery skills don't actually make you good at taking down organized crime" angles.

My guess from the trailer is that this take on Kate is going to be a good deal less snarky and more admiring of Clint? (In the comics she didn't take the name "Hawkeye" because she was a fan. Clint was dead at the time, she was good at archery, so Captain America gave her the bow and title). The big dynamic is going to be Kate being in awe of Clint, as the "Normal Guy" among the Avengers, while Clint very much regrets being the Normal Guy doing Avengers stuff.

[t209]

Did I see Kate Bishop?

[Psyren]

Here, they have Kate set up as some sort of Hawkeye Fangirl, which I can't say a I love. In the Comic their dynamic worked very well as one of asymettric Equals. Clint was far more experienced, but was worn out and demoralized. Kate had the skills, but didn't screw her own life up that much quite yet, and so even if they were theoretically mentor-and-student, it worked out to a more equal partnership.

Thad said, I very much doubt that the Show is going to follow the Comic that directly, but they're likely to get the Theme together.

It can't work out to them being equals in the same way as the comics. The comic has the burden of establishing/solidifying Kate, but also keeping Clint around as an active hero. The MCU meanwhile is about passing the torch, because the actors will eventually age out of or simply move on from the various roles. As a result, those specific iterations of the characters need to be able to retire too. (At least until a couple decades from now, when they reboot the whole thing and we get brand new Clint Barton / Tony Stark / etc.)

[Anteros]

Marvel went through a really terrible phase for a bit where they tried to replace tons of characters with a new version that was supposedly superior. "Here's a new Hawkeye. Shes way more accurate than Clint! Here's a new Thor! She's way better with mjollnir. This new iron man is far smarter than Tony! Etc."

Unsurprisingly very little of it actually stuck. It turns out you need more to make a good character than "they're like this other character you love but better!" I'm perfectly happy it doesn't look like the MCU is going in that direction. The few characters from that trend that are actually decent like Miles Morales all focused more on their own character than being a pale shadow of someone already established.

[Psyren]

Marvel went through a really terrible phase for a bit where they tried to replace tons of characters with a new version that was supposedly superior. "Here's a new Hawkeye. Shes way more accurate than Clint! Here's a new Thor! She's way better with mjollnir. This new iron man is far smarter than Tony! Etc."

Unsurprisingly very little of it actually stuck. It turns out you need more to make a good character than "they're like this other character you love but better!" I'm perfectly happy it doesn't look like the MCU is going in that direction. The few characters from that trend that are actually decent like Miles Morales all focused more on their own character than being a pale shadow of someone already established.

That's my point, you can't "replace them" in the comics. Characters there don't age or die off (at least not for long) so the torch can never truly be passed. Rather, the idea is to get you used to the name. That way, when they make Young Avengers featuring Kate Bishop, Elijah Bradley, Yelena Belova, Cassie Lang, Kid Loki, Billy/Tommy Maximoff and Riri Williams, they can (a) use cheaper unknown actors and still guarantee butts in seats in the theater, and (b) skip all those origin stories to get right to the action.

[Ramza00]

Marvel went through a really terrible phase for a bit where they tried to replace tons of characters with a new version that was supposedly superior. "Here's a new Hawkeye. Shes way more accurate than Clint! Here's a new Thor! She's way better with mjollnir. This new iron man is far smarter than Tony! Etc."

Unsurprisingly very little of it actually stuck. It turns out you need more to make a good character than "they're like this other character you love but better!" I'm perfectly happy it doesn't look like the MCU is going in that direction. The few characters from that trend that are actually decent like Miles Morales all focused more on their own character than being a pale shadow of someone already established.

Kate Bishop came out in 2005
Thor Vol 4 with female Thor was 2014
Ironheart was 2016

So in sum when are you talking about? For 9 years is a huge difference in comic time. Miles Morales is only 10 years old coming out Aug 2011, and he had a movie in 2018 (his 7th year) with production starting in 2014 and 2015.

———

Kate Bishop was purposefully created the way she was. This is because in 2004 Marvel knew they were going to do the MCU, but the ink was not yet there with the 525 million Merrill Lynch deal that was signed in 2005 that launched the MCU where Merrill gave a loan aka financing to make the Marvel Movies.

So in 2004 Marvel Comics purposefully caused Avengers Disassembled where the old team broke up. Then in 2005 we get two new Avengers teams, the Young Avengers who origins were shrouded in mystery but the comics were “teasing” the origins of four of the eight YA characters saying they were the new Captain America, Hulk, Thor, and Iron Man (aka founding Avengers), and a “New Avengers” team which was a mixed of former Avengers and new characters plus Spider-Man and Wolverine for they were popular at the time so let’s have these former loners become Avengers for the first time. All of this New Avengers stuff in 2005, and a lesser extent Young Avengers, was a conscious choice by Marvel Editorial to make the Avengers the big focus of all the comics line. We are going to throw all this attention hoping to make Avengers the big Varsity team sales wise for previous Avengers was the B-Team that sold far less than X-Men or Spider-Man and since Marvel did not have film rights anymore to those characters, did have film rights to the future MCU with the Avengers it was a company wide project to try to make fans in one medium into fans of this team and hopefully this will launch into fans of the movies. It was all manufactured, but that is the nature of comics. Most new characters are “manufactured.”

Since 2005 Kate Bishop has been in 212 comics in the main continuity. That is the exact same amount as Magneto had from 1963 to 1999 which was when the X-Men movie started filming, and said movie was released in 2000. Kate has become a prominent fan favorite and popular in 16 years to reach the level of appearances that Magneto took 36 years :smalltongue: Kate is not just a knock off, she is her own thing :smallwink: