What Light or Heavy Shields allow you to do

[arkol]

Hello everyone,

This would apply to both 3.5 and pathfinder as I think the rules are the same for both on that regard.

So light shields allow you hold items while using them but heavy shields do not.

So what exactly can you do with light shields or even heavy shields. Can you cast spells? Hold a holy symbol? Use abilities that need a free hand but are not spells (lay on hands comes to mind). What other stuff?


edit: mods please move this to the D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 section where it belongs. My bad.

[Psyren]

The big differences, at least in PF, are:

Buckler: Your shield hand is considered free for nearly all purposes. You can hold an item (e.g. a holy symbol) or wield a weapon in that hand (either an off-hand weapon, or using that hand to help wield a 2-handed weapon.) You can also use that hand to help wield a bow or crossbow. You can perform somatic components with your offhand. Depending on what you use the hand for you may lose the shield bonus that turn. Generally, you cannot shield bash with a buckler.

Light Shield: Your hand can be used to hold an item but not wield a weapon. Your hand is not free so you can't do somatic components by default (there are ways around this.) You can now shield bash.

Heavy Shield: Your hand can't be used for anything but holding the shield. You may shield bash.

Tower Shield: Your hand can't be used for anything but holding the shield. You likely need an extra feat or feature to gain proficiency. You cannot shield bash, however you can turn the shield into a "wall" granting you total cover from one edge of your square against most attacks (but not spells).

[Hytheter]

Mind you, the buckler rules show a fundamental misunderstanding of what a buckler is and how it's used...

[jdizzlean]

The Mod Life Crisis:Thread moved to 3.5 subforum

[arkol]

Depending on what you use the hand for you may lose the shield bonus that turn. Right. That makes sense. Is there a list?



Light Shield:Your hand is not free so you can't do somatic components by default (there are ways around this.)Such as?

[Psyren]

Right. That makes sense. Is there a list?

Performing somatic components will make you lose the AC bonus.

"If you use a weapon in your offhand" you lose it as well, but it's a GM call whether that just refers to TWF or whether 2H weapons and bows count as well.

The Unhindering Shield feat removes these drawbacks if you'd rather just not deal with them.



Such as?

The Shielded Mage feat is your best bet as that will work for any class and shield.

There are a couple of archetypes that also grant similar abilities, like Skirnir Magus, but they are generally downgrades over just taking the feat on a base class.

Your other option of course is to forego somatic components entirely, e.g. Psychic Magic or psionics.

Finally, because light shields and bucklers let you hold items, alchemy works well too (you can retrieve and chug an extract with your shield hand.)

Lots of options as you can see :smallsmile:

[Thurbane]

Mind you, the buckler rules show a fundamental misunderstanding of what a buckler is and how it's used...

In a game where a high enough level character literally cannot die from a 10,000 foot fall; where drowning heals you; where horses are square; where a house cat has a very decent chance of killing an average human in a fight; where the gyrspike exists as a serious weapon etc. this is hardly surprising, is it?

The game is largely an abstraction (and quite a silly one at times), and definitely not a medieval arms and armor simulator. :smallwink:

[ShurikVch]

Such as?
Somatic Weaponry feat (Complete Mage)



In a game where a high enough level character literally cannot die from a 10,000 foot fall;
Nope, they still can: from failed Massive Damage save


where drowning heals you;
For all the three rounds? :smallamused:


where horses are square;
And not just horses - everybody are square too! :smallsmile:


where a house cat has a very decent chance of killing an average human in a fight;
Actually, half a dozen of rats would have even better chance (While IRL I would pick rats over a cat - unless they're with some dangerous infection; but cat may have rabies...)


where the gyrspike exists as a serious weapon etc. this is hardly surprising, is it?
Existence of such silly weapons don't dissuade me from wishing at least "real" weapon would be done better
Say, sling is clearly underpowered - writers, probably, thought "slingshot" - not sling
Or scythes: nothing wrong mechanically, but scythes which were used in combat IRL weren't, exactly, a farming tools - but converted from regular scythes

https://img.google-info.org/storage/big/1220557.jpg

Or Tau Kien (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_Kien): Arms and Equipment Guide says it's "Weapon Equivalent" of Longsword - but this thing weighs on par with heaviest Greatswords (4,5 kg) - shouldn't it have any impact on its mechanics?

[Thurbane]

Nope, they still can: from failed Massive Damage save

I knew someone would bring that up :smallbiggrin:

I'll amend my statement: by the time you have more than 120hp, you will have likely around a 90% or better survival rate of a 10,000 foot fall. Better? :smalltongue: Actual percentages may vary, I'm not dedicated enough to this to make all the calculations lol


And not just horses - everybody are square too! :smallsmile:

Viewed from above, it just seems a bit more egregious to me than it does for humanoids and such.


Existence of such silly weapons don't dissuade me from wishing at least "real" weapon would be done better
Say, sling is clearly underpowered - writers, probably, thought "slingshot" - not sling
Or scythes: nothing wrong mechanically, but scythes which were used in combat IRL weren't, exactly, a farming tools - but converted from regular scythes

https://img.google-info.org/storage/big/1220557.jpg

Or Tau Kien (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_Kien): Arms and Equipment Guide says it's "Weapon Equivalent" of Longsword - but this thing weighs on par with heaviest Greatswords (4,5 kg) - shouldn't it have any impact on its mechanics?

I know, but the armchair experts and debates that discussion about D&D weapons and armor bring often amuse me. I have a pretty keen interest in the topic myself, but some people on gaming forums launch into it with a gusto (and sometimes air of smugness - not aimed at anyone in particular) that I find both hilarious and irksome, when taken too far. :smallbiggrin:

I mean I get it, it's a very common human reaction to want to show off knowledge on a particular topic you are well versed in. But the heat of some of the debates I've seen, and the vitriol the "experts" sometimes heap on those who haven't spent years researching the topic, can be anything but productive.

[Darg]

I knew someone would bring that up :smallbiggrin:

I'll amend my statement: by the time you have more than 120hp, you will have likely around a 90% or better survival rate of a 10,000 foot fall. Better? :smalltongue: Actual percentages may vary, I'm not dedicated enough to this to make all the calculations lol.

TBF, there is such a thing as terminal velocity. Falling from 1,500 ft or 50,000 ft doesn't really change much. Still, reaching terminal velocity in 200 ft is a little...

[liquidformat]

TBF, there is such a thing as terminal velocity. Falling from 1,500 ft or 50,000 ft doesn't really change much. Still, reaching terminal velocity in 200 ft is a little...

to be fair, at 50,000ft the concern would be the inability to breath and the toxic levels of ozone and radiation as well as the temperature, you would have to fall about 10k feet before you hit the troposphere and even then the cold and thin air would still be a concern...

[Buufreak]

Squares

Cuboidal, actually. 3 dimensions and all that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Cuboidal, actually. 3 dimensions and all that.Maybe they're just, like, totally squares, man. Like, boring fuddy-duddies and stuff.

[Tzardok]

In truth, all four legged creatures are spherical. Like cows.

[Maat Mons]

Back on topic. If memory serves, in 3.5, a light shield (or shield gauntlet) lets you perform somatic or material components for spells. Also, if memory serves, you can use the same hand for both the material component and the somatic component. And you don't need to use a hand for your holy symbol, just having it worn prominently suffices.

[Tzardok]

You need to manipulate to divine focus as part of the casting process, even if you just touch it. But just like material components you don't need an extra hand for foci.

[Fizban]

In a game where a high enough level character literally cannot die from a 10,000 foot fall; where drowning heals you; where horses are square; where a house cat has a very decent chance of killing an average human in a fight; where the gyrspike exists as a serious weapon etc. this is hardly surprising, is it?

The game is largely an abstraction (and quite a silly one at times), and definitely not a medieval arms and armor simulator. :smallwink:
The game is also largely a simulation, particularly of the non-magical non-obviously-physics-ignoring parts. The problem with the buckler is pretty simple- someone heard the name, crossed it with strapped shields, and thought "oh yeah, you buckle it to your arm, that's what buckler means." But it's called a buckler because it rides on your swordbelt, you buckle it on with your sword (and is the reason they're called swashbucklers, not any other part of pop culture remembers the buckler part). What DnD calls a buckler does exist or close enough, it's just called a targe (the style seeming to have been rare enough that one local name is sufficient)- a small strapped shield with enough offset that you can hold a weapon that hand. Most of the core weapons also exist, just with slightly inaccurate names, not that historical names were all that precise either and these are names picked by hobbyist gamers how many years before the modern standards of naming existed?.

And I rather doubt the gryspike is being considered a serious weapon. All the double weapons are gimmicks, and no one who looks at a picture or thinks for a moment would take it seriously. But someone saw the double weapon pattern and decided to fill it out, no matter how dumb the result was, and at that point why spoil the joke?

There's also the bit where supposedly the falling damage was originally meant to be cumulative, so a 40' fall would be 10d6 and 200' would be lol-dice, though I don't recall who's supposed to have said that in which source.

Actually, half a dozen of rats would have even better chance (While IRL I would pick rats over a cat - unless they're with some dangerous infection; but cat may have rabies...)
Your daily reminder that in 3.x, those rats are the same size as the cat. So while the cast is indeed more lethal 1v1, the rats are literally in the same weight class.


What you can hold is made pretty clear in the shield descriptions, the only really questionable part comes from spellcasting, as usual. Common expectation is that you can handle as many material and focus components as you want in the same hand that's doing the somatic (and wielding a spiked gauntlet!), but if the DM has decided to read materials as requiring their own hand, and if being able to hold something does not include the ability to get something out of a pouch, light shields can be rather impacted. But since light shields are already useless as written, worth only a handful of gp saved at 1st level, it hardly matters.

[RexDart]

Back on topic. If memory serves, in 3.5, a light shield (or shield gauntlet) lets you perform somatic or material components for spells. Also, if memory serves, you can use the same hand for both the material component and the somatic component. And you don't need to use a hand for your holy symbol, just having it worn prominently suffices.

I always thought the same, and looking up shields and somatic component in the SRD seems to confirm this. Under shields, it says you can carry something in your light shield hand, and Somatic requires having a hand free. Is there any rule elsewhere that says wielding a light shield does isn't considered "free enough" for somatic components?

[Psyren]

I always thought the same, and looking up shields and somatic component in the SRD seems to confirm this. Under shields, it says you can carry something in your light shield hand, and Somatic requires having a hand free. Is there any rule elsewhere that says wielding a light shield does isn't considered "free enough" for somatic components?

3.5 is vague about it. Pathfinder explicitly disallows it, but then lets you overcome that issue with a feat (one that works with heavy shields too.) PF is fine with bucklers though, with no feat.

[Maat Mons]

I've done a little digging. It looks like I've been playing light shields wrong. I thought they had a minor niche with low-level Clerics. But it turns out they're just useless all around.


My DM says that my cleric has to drop his morningstar to cast spells. Is he right?

Yes and no. To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must gesture freely with at least one hand. (PH 140) A cleric (or any caster, for that matter) who holds a weapon in one hand and wears a heavy shield on the other arm doesn’t have a hand free to cast a spell with a somatic component (which includes most spells in the game). To cast such a spell, the character must either drop or sheathe his weapon.

Another simple option is for the cleric to carry a buckler or light shield instead of a heavy shield. The buckler leaves one hand free for spellcasting, and you don’t even lose the buckler’s shield bonus to AC when casting with that hand. The light shield doesn’t give you a free hand for spellcasting, but since you can hold an item in the same hand that holds the light shield, you could switch your weapon to that hand to free up a hand for spellcasting. (You can’t use the weapon while it’s held in the same hand as your shield, of course.) The rules don’t state what type of action is required to switch hands on a weapon, but it seems reasonable to assume that it’s the equivalent of drawing a weapon (a move action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity).


At least shield gauntlets (RoS 158) explicitly let you perform somatic components with your shield hand. My mid- to high-level Clerics can still use those, as soon as they can afford 1,050 gp for a mithril version to dodge nonproficiency penalties.

[Psyren]

...I completely didn't remember the switch weapon to light-shield-hand option :smallredface: I believe that is actually a free action in PF. So that would negate the need for a feat at all!

[ShurikVch]

Your daily reminder that in 3.x, those rats are the same size as the cat. So while the cast is indeed more lethal 1v1, the rats are literally in the same weight class.
Note: "Size Category" ≠ "Size"
Tiny size starts from 1' and 1 lbs.
Well, largest IRL rats are this big:

https://vestiprim.ru/uploads/posts/2015-09/thumbs/1443246565_krysa.jpghttps://sites.google.com/site/1000voprosov/_/rsrc/1472861567613/eto-interesno/floriduatakuutgigantskiekrysy/gambian_pouched_-rats-5.jpg?height=240&width=320

Cats, on the other hand, are on the verge of Small size: 2' is fairly standard for average cat, and 8 lbs is normal for a rather slim Siamese Cat; bigger breeds - like Maine **** or Savannah - are definitely in Small size category

In the game terms, Rat is CR 1/8 - i. e. less dangerous than Penguin; Cat is CR 1/4 - same as Jackal



But since light shields are already useless as written, worth only a handful of gp saved at 1st level, it hardly matters.
Hey, Light Shield is a Light Weapon - it matter for TWF



3.5 is vague about it. Pathfinder explicitly disallows it, but then lets you overcome that issue with a feat (one that works with heavy shields too.) PF is fine with bucklers though, with no feat.
I already mentioned Somatic Weaponry feat from Complete Mage, which allow to cast with a weapon (or, really, with anything weapon-sized) in your hand

[Fizban]

Note: "Size Category" ≠ "Size"
Tiny size starts from 1' and 1 lbs.
Well, largest IRL rats are this big:

https://vestiprim.ru/uploads/posts/2015-09/thumbs/1443246565_krysa.jpghttps://sites.google.com/site/1000voprosov/_/rsrc/1472861567613/eto-interesno/floriduatakuutgigantskiekrysy/gambian_pouched_-rats-5.jpg?height=240&width=320

Cats, on the other hand, are on the verge of Small size: 2' is fairly standard for average cat, and 8 lbs is normal for a rather slim Siamese Cat; bigger breeds - like Maine **** or Savannah - are definitely in Small size category
And there are also plenty of cats on the low end, and that first pic I think says plenty- that thing is terrifyingly large and I'd rather take the average rather little housecat over even just two of those giant doom rats, if only because it's only one target to hit. We can probably agree that most of the problem is in the massive range on Tiny size (which is also capable of body blocking Medium creatures, but can forcibly move into Medium creature's spaces). I'll point out that savannah wild cats are covered by the Serval in Sandstorm, with Small size. And in my own notes I've adopted a range of allowed cat stats, not that they should really matter, between small house and large halfbreed. I just don't like it when people say "common housecat" like stats used for DnD combat represent our mostly harmless everyday animals, when the fact that they're so dangerous should make it pretty clear they don't. They cover big scary sewer rats that will try to kill you, and cats that hunt for a living and are quite possibly still half feral, and so on- not pet rats and carefully dieted lap cats.


Hey, Light Shield is a Light Weapon - it matter for TWF
Oh, don't get me started on TWF as any sort of "fix" or "correct" use of shields. . .

[Darg]

Oh, don't get me started on TWF as any sort of "fix" or "correct" use of shields. . .

Well, a tower shield has a maximum dex bonus of +2, but the rule is that shields don't affect a character's maximum dex bonus... not that this has anything to do with light shields. Nor does it fix the fact that attacks made with an off hand get an extra -4 penalty and wielding a two-handed weapon with both hands gives a -4 penalty with a max str bonus of 1/2 because it is also being held in the off hand. Off hand weapons are not a thing in 3.5 and yet shield bashes make a direct mention to using the shield as an off hand weapon. 3.5 has a lot of artifacts that don't work from 3.0 due to copy/paste errors.

Anyways, a light shield is able to benefit from weapon finesse, only has a -1 armor check penalty, and only a 5% arcane failure chance. It's also usable as a weapon and because of the above you don't have to worry about the off hand penalties and strength bonus limit. So if the rogue wants more AC with minimal penalty a light shield is actually a viable option without suffering the -1 penalty a buckler would give.

[DMVerdandi]

Shields in this game are TERRIBLE.
In fact, the sad part of the game is that anything that isn't spellcasting is abstracted so far into uselessness that it's sickening.
Also, yes, they have no idea what a buckler does.

The ability to deflect things so easily and lightly alongside SMASHING bones to bits is insane. Bucklers ended up being rather the...handgun of shields. It works, It's very intuitive, you can take it anywhere, and it's just as much a weapon as it is a defense tool.

Quick example. Two guys in a scrap. equal skills and build One has a buckler. Who is going to win? Buckler guy is going to hit the unarmed guy once and hurt him BAD.



shields should be deflection bonus AC, with same light, medium and heavy, but they should be equivalent to what you are getting from armor.

Armor should be DR and bonus HP.




no reason for "martial supremacy" if the martials and everything about them suck FAR FAR FAR worse than reality.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Shields in this game are TERRIBLE.
In fact, the sad part of the game is that anything that isn't spellcasting is abstracted so far into uselessness that it's sickening.
Also, yes, they have no idea what a buckler does.

The ability to deflect things so easily and lightly alongside SMASHING bones to bits is insane. Bucklers ended up being rather the...handgun of shields. It works, It's very intuitive, you can take it anywhere, and it's just as much a weapon as it is a defense tool.

Quick example. Two guys in a scrap. equal skills and build One has a buckler. Who is going to win? Buckler guy is going to hit the unarmed guy once and hurt him BAD.

shields should be deflection bonus AC, with same light, medium and heavy, but they should be equivalent to what you are getting from armor.

Armor should be DR and bonus HP.




no reason for "martial supremacy" if the martials and everything about them suck FAR FAR FAR worse than reality.Honestly, I think shields should be a miss chance that stacks with armor's miss chance, along with DR at higher levels, and shields should work on the majority of spells, as well. Perhaps as SR? And they should scale with BAB gained from HD and class levels -- not spells -- since skill most definitely applies to utilizing both shields and armor to best effect.