Early Medieval Weapon Set

[Catullus64]

I'm setting up a game to run with friends. It's set in a mythical-historical pastiche of early medieval Ireland, and I wanted to try out some changes to the weapons and their characteristics to make them fit more neatly, as well as to fix little niggles I've always had with weapons. Not everything is perfectly accurate to period (which is fine, since the setting mashes nearly 800 years of myth and history together). Players have already agreed to the premise of me re-doing the weapon table.

The armor changes are pretty much entirely cosmetic: changing around the names and weights on the existing armors so that the heaviest armor of the setting, full mail with greaves and helmet, is AC 18 Heavy armor, with various transitional armors from there on down. The only mechanical beneficiaries of armor changes are Druids, since some of the more protective medium armors are now non-metal. But if Druids can't get a little buff in a Celtic setting, what's even the point?

Not only is this good for the setting, but it removes my personal bugbears about how a full harness of plate in D&D is simultaneously way less protective and way less encumbering than real-life equivalents.

The changes to weapons and shields are where things get a little more mechanical. I've tried to put it in bold where I've made a change from the default. (The only change I haven't bothered to highlight is currency changes; silver, rather than gold, is the default unit for value.)



Simple Melee Weapons

No change to Club, Javelin, Light Hammer, or Quarterstaff.
Spear & Greatclub have been moved to Martial Weapons.

Dagger - 2 SP - 1d4 Piercing - Light, Finesse, Thrown (20/60)

Handaxe - 5 SP - 1d6 Slashing/Bludgeoning - Light, Thrown (20/60)

Mace - 5 SP - 1d6 Bludgeoning/Piercing

Sickle - 1 SP - 1d4 Slashing - Light, Finesse

Simple Ranged Weapons

Light Crossbow has been removed. Shortbow and Dart remain unchanged.

Sling - 5 CP - 1d8 Bludgeoning - Ammunition, Ranged (30/120)

Martial Melee Weapons

Flail, Greatsword, Glaive, Halberd, Longsword, Maul, Morningstar, Pike, Rapier, Scimitar, and War Pick have been removed.

Lance remains unchanged.

Trident has been moved to Simple weapons, but otherwise remains unchanged.

New Weapon: Sword

Battleaxe - 1 GP - 1d8 Slashing/Bludgeoning - Versatile (1d10)

Greatclub - 2 SP - 1d8 Bludgeoning - Two-Handed, Heavy

Greataxe - 3 GP - 2d6 Slashing/Bludgeoning - Heavy, Two-Handed

Warhammer - 15 SP - 1d8 Bludgeoning/Piercing - Versatile (1d10)

Shortsword - 1 GP - 1d6 Piercing/Slashing - Finesse, Light

Spear - 1 SP - 1d8 Piercing - Reach, Versatile (1d10), Thrown (20/60)

Sword - 25 SP - 1d8 Piercing/Slashing - Finesse

Martial Ranged Weapons

Heavy Crossbow and Hand Crossbow have been removed. Net and Blowgun remain unchanged.

Longbow - 5 GP - 1d10 Piercing - Heavy, Two-Handed, Ranged (150/600), Ammunition, Special: A character with less than 12 Strength has disadvantage on attacks with a Longbow.




Small Shield - 5 SP - +1 AC - Special: When you draw or put away a weapon on your turn, you may don or doff a small shield as part of that same interaction.

Medium Shield - 10 SP - +2 AC - Special: You may don or doff this Shield as a bonus action instead of an action.

Large Shield - 12 SP - +3 AC



Racial Weapon proficiencies aren't a thing, every player character is Human.
Artificer: No changes
Barbarian: No changes
Bard: Light Armor, Small Shields. Simple Weapons, Shortswords, Swords.
Cleric: Light and Medium Armor, Small and Medium Shields. Simple Weapons. Any Divine Domain that grants proficiency in Heavy Armor or Martial Weapons also grants proficiency in Large Shields.
Druid: Light Armor, Medium Armor, Small and Medium Shields. Clubs, Daggers, Darts, Javelins, Maces, Sickles, Quarterstaves, Slings, Shortswords.
Fighter: No changes
Monk: Simple Weapons, Shortswords
Paladin: No changes.
Ranger: No changes.
Rogue: Light Armor, Small Shields. Simple Weapons, Shortswords, Swords.
Sorcerer: No changes.
Warlock: Light Armor, Small Shields. Simple Weapons.
Wizard: No changes.


General thoughts on how well this captures the period? Potential balance problems or tricky rules interactions? Suggestions?

[Willie the Duck]

Slings honestly could have an even greater range. Loading might not be inappropriate. Maybe a range minimum (or penalty for shooting indoors)? I'm never sure how to handle them with an eye towards realism.

Spears are also a bugaboo -- they are absolutely the weapon one gives a green newbie, and as such ought to be simple, yet they are also a warrior's weapon. Could you have them have different properties based on the proficiencies of those who wield them?

Maces - yes there are plenty of spiked maces, but I believe the prevailing logic is still that it functions predominantly to have the blow stick to a reflecting body like a shield or breastplate, not to do impaling-style damage. I don't think I'd give it a B/P damage type.

Rules interactions - Look at the combat feats and decide whether this serves your purposes. Do you still want PAM to work with spears and staves (now those are the only weapons to use the feat)? Did you intend that GWM's -5/+10 works only with Greatclub (kinda a nifty Dagda reference if deliberate)?

[Catullus64]

Slings honestly could have an even greater range. Loading might not be inappropriate. Maybe a range minimum (or penalty for shooting indoors)? I'm never sure how to handle them with an eye towards realism.

Spears are also a bugaboo -- they are absolutely the weapon one gives a green newbie, and as such ought to be simple, yet they are also a warrior's weapon. Could you have them have different properties based on the proficiencies of those who wield them?

Maces - yes there are plenty of spiked maces, but I believe the prevailing logic is still that it functions predominantly to have the blow stick to a reflecting body like a shield or breastplate, not to do impaling-style damage. I don't think I'd give it a B/P damage type.

Rules interactions - Look at the combat feats and decide whether this serves your purposes. Do you still want PAM to work with spears and staves (now those are the only weapons to use the feat)? Did you intend that GWM's -5/+10 works only with Greatclub (kinda a nifty Dagda reference if deliberate)?

The sling thing is more for theme than realism. The heroic cycles feature slings pretty prominently, so I want them to be viable. I've kept the range the same so that they still have a distinct trade-off with Shortbows.

Yeah, I think I'll shave that off the mace, but keep it on the Warhammer and Battleaxe; flexible damage type is now the only advantage those weapons retain (albeit a slight one) over Spears. I wanted to give maces some raison d'etre over Quarterstaves, but it's not that important either way.

For GWM, the Greataxe is still a viable choice, and it's now the only 2d6 weapon; it's a weapon specifically brought in by Norse invaders. But I'm glad you caught the Dagda reference. The Greatclub is still worse, of course, save in respect of being cheaper.

[Christew]

Are the dual damage types choose one or both? If using feats this might have implications for stacking Crusher/Piercer/Slasher. I would also second the spear question.

Nothing else looks particularly out of balance. I really like the shield options.

[Catullus64]

Are the dual damage types choose one or both? If using feats this might have implications for stacking Crusher/Piercer/Slasher. I would also second the spear question.

Nothing else looks particularly out of balance. I really like the shield options.

The damage types are of choice. On the spear question, I do get that they're the weapon of conscripts and warrior-elites alike, but since no player character class really represents a conscript-type, I'm content to simply leave it to the martial weapon category. After all, NPCs can have whatever weapon proficiencies you want, so untrained levies can still have spears.

[JackPhoenix]

Move spear back to simple and remove reach, put pike back in, though perhaps dial down the weight. Anything that long would be very poor thrown weapon.
Remove trident, it's a gimmick, not a weapon.
Remove finesse from sickle, or better yet, remove it entirely. It's a tool, not a weapon, and it's not precise.
You may as well move greatclub back to simple weapons... d8 two-handed martial weapon is bad stand-out, when you most one-handed weapons do the same damage, or better if used in both hands.

[Willie the Duck]

For GWM, the Greataxe is still a viable choice

Whoops, missed that one in the mix.

[DarknessEternal]

I just came in to make sure Rapiers were removed. They were, good job. You're actually trying to do something with mindfulness here.

While I'm here, a suggestion: give Longbows finesse. I see your strength-minded change already, but I subscribe to the theory that strength is vastly more important than shooting a bow than dexterity is. Giving it finesse is the compromise solution to realism vs D&D traditionalism.

Also, D&D's "long sword" was definitely in use well before the early Medieval period, including Ireland. I don't want to go all wikipedia here. If you've removed it specifically for your setting, then nothing else needs to be said on the matter.

[Dienekes]

I'll point out, one of the only cultures we have consistent repeated sources claiming they used one-handed flails was in the early medieval period of Europe. Though the Rus did eventually abandon the practice.

Someone already covered the purpose of spikes on maces.


The damage types are of choice. On the spear question, I do get that they're the weapon of conscripts and warrior-elites alike, but since no player character class really represents a conscript-type, I'm content to simply leave it to the martial weapon category. After all, NPCs can have whatever weapon proficiencies you want, so untrained levies can still have spears.

This kind of runs into what I consider a problem with how 5e handles weapons. A lot of melee weapons just work very similarly to each other. I mean, there are some exceptions. But for the most part they're all just levels with various weight on the end. Some are a bit easier to just pick up, but once you learn how to strike and thrust with one, you can probably strike and thrust with another after messing about with it to find its point of balance.

And well, the one-handed spear with reach was the king of the battlefield for a reason. It was one of those weapons that anyone could pick up and get a feel to do the basic thrusts really easy. But if someone wanted to become a master with it, there was plenty to learn with very similar movements to most every other weapon.

If we wanted to both get this feeling down, while also streamlining things for D&D's sake. The best way to really demonstrate it is probably: martial classes get Melee Weapon Proficiency. They are proficient with Melee Weapons. Some melee weapons have the [Simple] Tag. Players without Melee Weapon Proficiency can still use Simple Weapons as if their Proficiency Bonus was +2. It never increases past this bonus until they gain Melee Weapon Proficiency.

But anyway, I like your Spear and Sword. They're pretty much accurate to what the weapons were used for.


Also, D&D's "long sword" was definitely in use well before the early Medieval period, including Ireland. I don't want to go all wikipedia here. If you've removed it specifically for your setting, then nothing else needs to be said on the matter.

You mind giving some reference here? My understanding of the old gaelic long blades were much closer to the an arming sword, which Catullus has under the name Sword.

[Catullus64]

I don't know the period or weapon tactics, but I'd think limiting the ranged weapons to only slings (1d8) and Longbows (ST requirement) gives too much damage to slings and leaves out a normal hunting bow / short bow.


It's easy to miss, but there's a note under Simple Ranged Weapons which says "Dart and Shortbow remain unchanged."


Also, D&D's "long sword" was definitely in use well before the early Medieval period, including Ireland. I don't want to go all wikipedia here. If you've removed it specifically for your setting, then nothing else needs to be said on the matter.

Do tell. I always thought that the longsword as usually understood by the modern use of the term (a sword primarily intended for use in two hands, but feasible for use in one) was a thing of the high middle ages.

Older sources use the term "long sword", but I always assumed they were "long" in comparison to stuff that D&D would classify as a Shortsword, and were definitively still one-handed weapons. (Also ancient authors just liked to use adjectives that made stuff sound cool; long swords, broad shields, bright mail, etc.)

[Christew]

Do tell. I always thought that the longsword as usually understood by the modern use of the term (a sword primarily intended for use in two hands, but feasible for use in one) was a thing of the high middle ages.

Older sources use the term "long sword", but I always assumed they were "long" in comparison to stuff that D&D would classify as a Shortsword, and were definitively still one-handed weapons. (Also ancient authors just liked to use adjectives that made stuff sound cool; long swords, broad shields, bright mail, etc.)
I think 5e's three step gradation of sword length just doesn't map onto the broad spectrum of historical examples very well.

Viking/Celtic style swords were definitely long in comparison to say a Roman gladius, but were also clearly one handed weapons. The piercing vs slashing damage might be a better bright line distinction than length.

Personally, I wouldn't get into the weeds too much in this area. What you have for swords illustrates your intention fine to my eyes.

[sambojin]

Spear - 1 SP - 1d8 Piercing - Reach, Versatile (1d10), Thrown (20/60), Simple Weapon, 3lbs.

Warrior's Spear - 18 SP - 1d8 Piercing - Reach, Versatile (1d10), +1to-hit, Martial Weapon, 5lbs

Ta-da! One is a basic wooden weapon with a metal point for everyone to use, one is an expensive armour piercing / well balanced weapon with extra metal for heft or strength-in-striking-fast that no-one in their right mind would throw away. Buy a dart or a handaxe or a javelin or something for throwing at people.

You could probably even leave in the thrown property if you want a bit of heroic eye-piercing spear-chucking to it, the cost and the martialness of it might be enough, even though it's a flat upgrade. Sometimes real warriors using proper weapons are. DnD has plenty of straight upgrades from simple to martial, not everything has to fullfill a niche. Warrior's Spear is essentially the masterwork version of a Spear.

You could go Spear: Simple, 1d6/1d8 and Warrior's Spear being the full Martial, 1d8/1d10 for damage, but I like the +1'ness to-hit, for awesome hero purposes. Chuck everything else if you want, but not your good fighting spear. That's for stabbing people with.

[DarknessEternal]

Ignore my comments about D&D's "long sword". I missed the "sword" in your list of weapons.

I wasn't trying to insinuate a historical long sword existed, only what D&D calls a "long sword", and you already were on top of that.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I'm setting up a game to run with friends. It's set in a mythical-historical pastiche of early medieval Ireland

Pre-Christian Ireland is amazing. PC Ireland has fey, undead, giants, dragons, sea monsters, gods, and a culture we can understand today!

I would love to get an email address from you so I could send to you my PC Ireland setting in 5e. It has a lot of cultural details, like gaelic noble ranks, social classes, Irish calendar, pantheon and festivals, individual kingdoms based on the names of the counties, etc etc. You might find something worth stealing in all of it, and I might save you some time looking for things.

[chiefwaha]

While I'm here, a suggestion: give Longbows finesse. I see your strength-minded change already, but I subscribe to the theory that strength is vastly more important than shooting a bow than dexterity is. Giving it finesse is the compromise solution to realism vs D&D traditionalism.


Ranged weapons use Dex for attack and damage rolls already, unless it is a melee weapon with the thrown property, so, unless I'm forgetting an interaction somewhere(entirely possible), wouldn't this be redundant?

[Willie the Duck]

Ranged weapons use Dex for attack and damage rolls already, unless it is a melee weapon with the thrown property, so, unless I'm forgetting an interaction somewhere(entirely possible), wouldn't this be redundant?
Finesse would mean that you could use Str for bows.

Finesse When making an Attack with a finesse weapon, you use your choice of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the Attack and Damage Rolls. You must use the same modifier for both rolls.
It's an alternate way (compared to the OP's suggestion) of making Strength relevant (or at least potentially relevant) for bows. Mind you, it means you still have the Str 8, dex 18 archers, but now you also can have the str18, dex8 archers as well.

[Joe the Rat]

Ive been mulling, and here's where I would go, were I building this out. Reach is kind of a big deal for the spear - it's one of the big advantages in hunting (or fighting people without them). So we want to work that in.

The standard javelin is essentially a short or light spear - 1d6, throwable, not long enough for two handing. It's the viable in melee that makes it critical - if you can't fight melee with it, use the dart. This can be your Simple Weapons spear. If you want a simple and versatile version, make a version with reach and drop the thrown. Call it a boar spear.

So for martial, we do a heavy/war spear: 1d8 versatile 1d10, reach , NOT HEAVY, ...and I'm on the fence on thrown. If you do, drop it to dagger ranges. This is your big heavy awkward Big Poker - you've got some lighter sticks (darts/javelins) for throwing.

You might want to bring in a lance/pike lovechild in a longspear or boarding spear - 2h 1d10 double reach (adds 10') or reach and (heavy or special: 1-handed if you are setting for a charge/not moving). Something you really only use in 2nd rank of formations, or against ship boarders, or standing on a plank between two beached vessels to hold back the Trojan armies that are intent on burning your fleet.

What I'm trying to do here is thread the needle - give spears better reach over other melee weapons, but make a space for true polearms (the extra-long pointy stick being the era's take on it). If you find this is overemphasizing the spear, make it reach (1h only) - making the assumption that two-handing a spear necessitates "choking up" on the shaft, exchanging reach for leverage.

The catch with all of this is while you are getting the spear some serious martial cred, you are neglecting the role of the sword in heroic tales - the only thing it has going for it here is finesse. Best take, it will be a setting function where you are more likely to find magic swords than other weapons.

Other Notes:
Sling: I'm going to go back a couple, and suggest 1d6(stone)/1d8(bullet) damage. You trade the range of the shortbow for nigh-unlimited free ammo, or take a stronger version with your perfectly worked or cast missiles. The magic versions have various curses etched into them.

[DarknessEternal]

Finesse would mean that you could use Str for bows.

It's an alternate way (compared to the OP's suggestion) of making Strength relevant (or at least potentially relevant) for bows. Mind you, it means you still have the Str 8, dex 18 archers, but now you also can have the str18, dex8 archers as well.

This is everything I meant.

I brought up the "strength for bows" issue in this thread because the OP is making other changes to weapons based on realism.

[Catullus64]

The catch with all of this is while you are getting the spear some serious martial cred, you are neglecting the role of the sword in heroic tales - the only thing it has going for it here is finesse. Best take, it will be a setting function where you are more likely to find magic swords than other weapons.


A sword does have a distinct advantage in its ability to deal either piercing or slashing damage, where the spear is restricted to piercing only. I use specific resistances to bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing a fair bit in my games. If I really need to emphasize the heroic nature of the sword, that's what magic weapons are for.

As a blanket response to what people have said about fighting vs. throwing spears: the literary sources that I'm using make frequent references to individuals throwing their spears. I don't read Old Irish, so I'm relying on translators, but there's no indication of separation between the spears being thrown and the ones being fought with hand-to-hand. There are also separate words being used to describe specifically thrown projectiles; presumably these would have been used in place of "spear" if the item being thrown was distinct.

Now I have no clue whether this is historically authentic or not. It could be the authors are just making stuff up for the sake of simplicity or drama, or their contemporary audience would have implicitly understood a difference between heavy spears for melee and lighter ones for throwing, such that they didn't need different words to specify. All that's moot, since I'm aiming to emulate the sagas and poems themselves rather than the historical reality that they point to. In fact, just about all of my changes are motivated by wanting to emulate a certain feel of the source material far more than it is concerned with any appeal to realism.

[Christew]

There are also separate words being used to describe specifically thrown projectiles; presumably these would have been used in place of "spear" if the item being thrown was distinct.
Been a while since I did much Irish mythology, but if I recall they differentiate gae (spear) vs ga-in (casting spear/javelin). Which is not to say a gae cannot be thrown (defining feature of the Gae Bolga, for example). Hazards of mythological history really, not known for their reliability or discrimination.

Descriptions of secondary charioteers always kind of put me in mind of golf caddies, not just feeding pointy sticks, but the right kind of pointy stick for a given task. I theorize that would include something more lance-like, but tough to find a reference to support that.

[LordShade]

Strong recommendation to check out the Brytenwalda mod for Mount & Blade: Warband. Tons of setting-appropriate armor and weapons there. You may not be able to represent them all with 5e stats, but you'll have a lot of inspiration for describing different swords or axes (even if they have the same stats). Or you can make small modifications, like crit ranges, weight, small initiative bonuses, varying damage on crits, reach advantages against shorter weapons (like the original Chainmail rules), etc.

[Saelethil]

I think you could probably leave the spear with d6/d8 damage. A one handed reach weapon is plenty of reason to chose it over a slightly more damaging weapon that requires the attacker to get up close. If someone wants to use a beefier spear they can use a lance. If you wanted a more maneuverable d10 spear then you could add the pike as an option.

I like that the longbow has a strength requirement but I also feel like all weapons should have a strength requirement (yes, all of them), so you didn't need to convince me. My general thought is that they should have a base 13 pre-req. -2 for light, -2 for finesse, +2 for heavy. That's a topic for another thread though.

[Carlobrand]

Why are the crossbows gone? People have been slapping bows onto stocks since 4th or 5th century BC Greece.

[Catullus64]

Why are the crossbows gone? People have been slapping bows onto stocks since 4th or 5th century BC Greece.

While it's entirely plausible that someone, somewhere in the periods that the setting draws upon could be using crossbows, they definitely aren't widespread in any of those eras, at least not in northern Europe.

[Carlobrand]

While it's entirely plausible that someone, somewhere in the periods that the setting draws upon could be using crossbows, they definitely aren't widespread in any of those eras, at least not in northern Europe.

Not to be argumentative and, you're right, they don't seem to be widespread, but there are images of crossbows being used to hunt engraved in Pictish stones from Scotland that date to the 6th to 9th century AD. They would have been inferior to the bows of the time, but they did have certain advantages specific to hunting.