What IS the War Wizard?

[jaappleton]

The Wizard has an absolute ton of subclasses.

One for each magical school, then some extras the fill in holes. Scribes for versatility, Bladesinger for the Wizard who wants to attack, etc.

Well... if the Bladesinger exists for the Wizard who wants to hit things... then what exactly is the War Wizard for?

What hole does it fill? Who is this for?

I do not think it's at all a bad subclass. But... Why does it exist? What empty hole in the Wizard list does this fill?

[nickl_2000]

I see War Wizard as the defensive Wizard. It's always ready to do what is needed to counter the bad guy.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I've always viewed it as the wizard who went to a college that specifically prepared wizards to fight in the military. The War Wizards of Cormyr, for a FR example. Basically snatching the Warmage (from 3.5E) base class's fluff wholesale.

[Amnestic]

A variety of arcane colleges specialize in training wizards for war. The tradition of War Magic blends principles of evocation and abjuration, rather than specializing in either of those schools. It teaches techniques that empower a caster’s spells, while also providing methods for wizards to bolster their own defenses.

Followers of this tradition are known as war mages. They see their magic as both a weapon and armor, a resource superior to any piece of steel. War mages act fast in battle, using their spells to seize tactical control of a situation. Their spells strike hard, while their defensive skills foil their opponents’ attempts to counterattack. War mages are also adept at turning other spellcasters' magical energy against them.

In great battles, a war mage often works with evokers, abjurers, and other types of wizards. Evokers, in particular, sometimes tease war mages for splitting their attention between offense and defense. A war mage's typical response: "What good is being able to throw a mighty Fireball if I die before I can cast it?"

- Xanathar's

Thematically they're the wizards that end usually end up in armies, probably ones trained specifically by a nation's military, which explains why Arcane Deflection has no use limit (they're intended to be able to go all day, rather than relying on spellslots), why they're defensive (Arcane Deflection+Durable Magic) and why they have a counterspell/dispel magic aspect (enemy war wizards).

If I'm playing a wizard that happens to have the Soldier background, then I'll play a Chronurgist those guys are overpowered I'll probably be eyeing a war mage as my subclass.

[strangebloke]

They needed to print more wizard subclasses for parity across more releases but started with a paradigm that gave them limited options.

In fluff War Wizards are wizards focused on the practice of using magic for war rather than the theory of a specific school of magic. Electrical Engineers rather than Physicists

[jaappleton]

I see War Wizard as the defensive Wizard. It's always ready to do what is needed to counter the bad guy.

Isn't that what Abjuration is for?

[JackPhoenix]

It's a wizard that's good at dueling other wizards. Acts faster, has better saves and AC, can do (pretty much insignificantly) better damage after countering magic.

[jaappleton]

It's a wizard that's good at dueling other wizards. Acts faster, has better saves and AC, can do (pretty much insignificantly) better damage after countering magic.

This might be my hang up.

The level 6 ability seems really out of place to me. The level two abilities and the tenth level, great. I see how that all works, it's cohesive, and I find it all thematic.

The 6th level ability seems random and out of place, like it doesn't belong. IMO it's very disjointed from the rest of the subclass.

[nickl_2000]

Isn't that what Abjuration is for?

Fair point, although they do it in different ways.

[Abracadangit]

I've always viewed it as the wizard who went to a college that specifically prepared wizards to fight in the military. The War Wizards of Cormyr, for a FR example. Basically snatching the Warmage (from 3.5E) base class's fluff wholesale.

Yeah, this was my idea as well. Other wizards learn their craft in fancy colleges and dusty libraries - war wizards learn from mercenary companies and paramilitary outfits whose whole schtick is "We use magic to win battles for people."

Granted, this is more of a D&D trope than a universal fantasy trope, but I think it quasi-works. My beef is that their mechanic of "stealing" magic from enemies' spells to fuel their own feels like it should be more of a sorcerer thing than a wizard thing, since sorcerers are supposed to have this intuitive grasp of raw magical energy while wizards are more about spells and spellmanship, but that feels like a debate for another thread.

If their spellstealing abilities were tagged out for things that felt more ruggedly militaristic, I'd probably enjoy them more.

Edit: And after I posted this, I discovered we agree, ha ha. So what should go in their 6th level ability instead, is the question.

[Christew]

This might be my hang up.

The level 6 ability seems really out of place to me. The level two abilities and the tenth level, great. I see how that all works, it's cohesive, and I find it all thematic.

The 6th level ability seems random and out of place, like it doesn't belong. IMO it's very disjointed from the rest of the subclass.
This. I think the designers were trying to be creative and ended up with something overcomplicated, underpowered, and off theme. Probably a solid part of why War most commonly shows up as a dip.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'd love to see the 6th level ability refresh a spell slot when you successfully counterspell or dispel. Emphasize their endurance at the same time as they have more reasons to specifically counter opposing spellcasters. Maybe recover an expended slot of at least 1 level lower than the slot used to counterspell/dispel.

Dunno, just throwing out ideas off of the top of my head.

[Nidgit]

Thematically it's what others have said, a wizard who hones practical combat skills instead of being more theory oriented, and who doesn't have an affinity towards a particular school of magic.

Mechanically, I think it's supposed to be one that flows smoothly from defense to offense. The level 6 and 14 abilities give you a damage boost when you performa defensive action and the Level 10 ability improves your defenses while concentrating on a spell. That said, Power Surge doesn't feel very impactful, particularly at low levels. You're supposed to feel like Dumbledore turning Voldemort's spells back on him but instead you're causing a little extra sting.

I'd add a line to Power Surge saying that if the target needs to make a Concentration Save upon taking the damage, it has disadvantage on that save. Really sell the idea of flinging a spell back in a caster's face.

[ImproperJustice]

I always kinda view them as “Magic Support” for frontline armies. Hitting enemy forces fast with control spells to break lines or to counter enemy mages by striking first or dispelling their forces then striking hard with a direct HP attack.

Last time I played one, that was how I role played it. A soldier wizard who stands alongside his brothers in arms and paves the way to victory.

Inspiration would be straight from the Wizards in the Black Company novel series like Goblin and One-Eye.

[Abracadangit]

I always kinda view them as “Magic Support” for frontline armies. Hitting enemy forces fast with control spells to break lines or to counter enemy mages by striking first or dispelling their forces then striking hard with a direct HP attack.

Last time I played one, that was how I role played it. A soldier wizard who stands alongside his brothers in arms and paves the way to victory.

Inspiration would be straight from the Wizards in the Black Company novel series like Goblin and One-Eye.

Black Company is a great example. To be fair, I really do like the class' 2nd-level ability. It feels like the wizard equivalent of (the dramatically embellished image of) George Washington walking across a battlefield as musket balls whiz by, not fazed in the slightest, shouting out orders. Like a war wizard is so used to enemy fire that they routinely activate their mini-deflector shield to knock errant crossbow bolts out of midair, while they move.

The problem with their 6th level ability isn't just the aforementioned -- it also feels like something a professional mageduelist would have specifically for fighting OTHER mages, instead of on a battlefield. Maybe if their 6th level ability was some kind of passive boost to evocation and/or abjuration spells?

[Christew]

Black Company is a great example. To be fair, I really do like the class' 2nd-level ability. It feels like the wizard equivalent of (the dramatically embellished image of) George Washington walking across a battlefield as musket balls whiz by, not fazed in the slightest, shouting out orders. Like a war wizard is so used to enemy fire that they routinely activate their mini-deflector shield to knock errant crossbow bolts out of midair, while they move.

The problem with their 6th level ability isn't just the aforementioned -- it also feels like something a professional mageduelist would have specifically for fighting OTHER mages, instead of on a battlefield. Maybe if their 6th level ability was some kind of passive boost to evocation and/or abjuration spells?
Seconded on a great example.

I imagine the drawing board inspiration for 6 was less about mage duels than if one side has battle wizards the other probably does to. I actually don't hate it being a dispel/counter ability for the reason of preventing another war mage from debuffing/AOEing your company. I'd be much happier if it provided an instant benefit than a resource to be spent later in that narrative.

[JackPhoenix]

I can see the reasoning for Power Surge being to add extra oomph to your cantrips after you use Arcane Deflection. But yeah, it feels weirdly out of place.

[Luccan]

It's a wizard that's good at dueling other wizards. Acts faster, has better saves and AC, can do (pretty much insignificantly) better damage after countering magic.

How much do you think the damage should be buffed by? Just fully equal to your Wizard level is my thought. Otherwise it would be nice if you didn't just do more damage with it. If you could use it to boost any spell it might be nice. Maybe it's too much, but using it to boost spells as if casting from higher slots comes to mind. You'd need a limit on times per long rest though.

[JackPhoenix]

How much do you think the damage should be buffed by? Just fully equal to your Wizard level is my thought. Otherwise it would be nice if you didn't just do more damage with it. If you could use it to boost any spell it might be nice. Maybe it's too much, but using it to boost spells as if casting from higher slots comes to mind. You'd need a limit on times per long rest though.

You do have a limit. 1 per long rest, and you pay at least 3rd level slot for more uses, assuming you'll end up in a situation where Counterspell/Dispel Magic is useful, and it works.

[Ashe]

War Wizard is the win wizard, both thematically and mechanically. "What's that? The typical pitfalls of a wizard? Naaaah doesn't sound like my type of thing." Basically what abjuration was trying to do but doesn't quite hit (especially if you say that the barrier still procs concentration checks).


You do have a limit. 1 per long rest, and you pay at least 3rd level slot for more uses, assuming you'll end up in a situation where Counterspell/Dispel Magic is useful, and it works.
One per short rest if you have none as well, which is nice.

[Luccan]

You do have a limit. 1 per long rest, and you pay at least 3rd level slot for more uses, assuming you'll end up in a situation where Counterspell/Dispel Magic is useful, and it works.

That's a fair point, you are already trading spell slots for its use

[Cicciograna]

It only exists because we needed an allitterative Wizard subclass.

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah, this was my idea as well. Other wizards learn their craft in fancy colleges and dusty libraries - war wizards learn from mercenary companies and paramilitary outfits whose whole schtick is "We use magic to win battles for people."

Granted, this is more of a D&D trope than a universal fantasy trope, but I think it quasi-works. My beef is that their mechanic of "stealing" magic from enemies' spells to fuel their own feels like it should be more of a sorcerer thing than a wizard thing, since sorcerers are supposed to have this intuitive grasp of raw magical energy while wizards are more about spells and spellmanship, but that feels like a debate for another thread.

If their spellstealing abilities were tagged out for things that felt more ruggedly militaristic, I'd probably enjoy them more.

Edit: And after I posted this, I discovered we agree, ha ha. So what should go in their 6th level ability instead, is the question.

I'm not sure it needs to be replaced. As mentioned in the thread, the War Wizard can give the idea that:

It's a wizard that's good at dueling other wizards. Acts faster, has better saves and AC, can do (pretty much insignificantly) better damage after countering magic.

As a DM, I can confidently say that a well-optimized Wizard is probably the biggest game-changer in the party. Moon Druids, Barbarians, Samurai Fighters, those all solve specific problems in a very straightforward way, but they don't have any extra solutions against debilitating effects or needing to run away. When you need a bridge, a teleport, a Fireball, or Featherfall, the Wizard is there to make those plays happen.

So, in essence, a well-prepared Wizard is the most dangerous tool in your arsenal. Someone who's an expert at war would recognize this and plan accordingly, so it makes sense that the "Wizard trained for war" would be an expert at dealing with war-mages like himself. Counterspell is mechanically one of the best spells in the game (Enemy spends an Action, you spend a Reaction and you get your Action), the issue being that it's niche and doesn't come up too often. Personally, though, I'd consider it a good day when a Counterspell isn't needed, as you'll probably know what to expect when a big thing tries to maul you, but you're going to have a bad time when a Wizard casts Cloudkill while you're surrounded by his undead.

I do think the counterspell buffs aren't great, but you're already a Wizard with no weaknesses so it's not like you don't have enough going for you if you decide to take it to 20. My complaint is that it's boring, but I doubt anyone would say it's weak.

[Chronos]

But war isn't about dueling. You're more likely to get into a wizard duel in any combat situation other than war. If you want to be a wizard specifically for war, then you shouldn't be specializing in fighting wizards; you should be specializing in fighting armies.

It only makes sense if you take "war" as a synonym for "combat", and, well, that's all PC wizards. And all PC fighters and all PC clerics and all PC warlocks and all PC monks and...

[Man_Over_Game]

But war isn't about dueling. You're more likely to get into a wizard duel in any combat situation other than war. If you want to be a wizard specifically for war, then you shouldn't be specializing in fighting wizards; you should be specializing in fighting armies.

It only makes sense if you take "war" as a synonym for "combat", and, well, that's all PC wizards. And all PC fighters and all PC clerics and all PC warlocks and all PC monks and...

On the contrary, Fireball would decimate a whole lot of soldiers faster and more efficiently than a dozen soldiers would. 2 Fireballs over 12 seconds is even more impressive. Wizards are like the equivalent of stealth bombers. As long as you keep them alive, they are easy wins.

It's no coincidence that most of warfare has evolved from learning how to attack without getting attacked back, and a Wizard with high initiative is really good at hurting you.

[PhantomSoul]

But war isn't about dueling. You're more likely to get into a wizard duel in any combat situation other than war. If you want to be a wizard specifically for war, then you shouldn't be specializing in fighting wizards; you should be specializing in fighting armies.


Overall, I agree, especially for D&D.

With that said, there's the alternative portrayal in some fiction where, in typical circumstances, the job of spellcasters is to neutralise other spellcasters and the net result is that magic is cancelled out if both sides' spellcasters do their job. So magic gives big tugs to the short-term tug of war in those cases, but it washes itself out overall if both sides have magic.

Not that I'd say it's necessarily going to play out this way in game, but the idea is that a war wizard could be engaging in a "magic vs. magic duel" as their role in war if that's the kind of fiction you want to duplicate.

[OldTrees1]

The War Wizard is one of the mages in an army that stands on the battlefield and acts as artillery, battlefield control, and a bunker. The main hole the War Wizard fills, is the Wizard that is not afraid of being attacked. In War you will be attacked if you are standing out in the open. They act as a force multiplier for the other units around them.

[Theodoxus]

It only exists because we needed an allitterative Wizard subclass.

That and to confuse people. "Wait, are you a War Wizard, like subclass, or War-Wizard, like warlock multiclass?"

[Garfunion]

There is still slightly one problem about the whole dispel/counter spell feature. Most “war”like spells like fireball are cast at a much greater distance then what counterspell can work. So the feature really doesn’t work well in a battlefield environment.

Now if the feature allow the use counterspell when a spell effect is within counterspell’s range, then maybe a useful feature.

[Thunderous Mojo]

The band known as the Temptations asked this same question:

War! (Wizard), huh,
What is it good for?

Their answer was:
Absolutely, nothing, say it again
The Temptations as an Adventuring band preferred the Peace Cleric.🃏

[Amnestic]

There is still slightly one problem about the whole dispel/counter spell feature. Most “war”like spells like fireball are cast at a much greater distance then what counterspell can work. So the feature really doesn’t work well in a battlefield environment.

Now if the feature allow the use counterspell when a spell effect is within counterspell’s range, then maybe a useful feature.

Might be tough to word that in a straightforward manner so simply increasing their spell ranges would probably be the more streamlined ('5e') approach. "In addition, Counterspell and Dispel Magic's casting range are increased to 200'." or something

200' doesn't cover every spell mind you, but it covers the main offenders (like Fireball).

[JackPhoenix]

Might be tough to word that in a straightforward manner so simply increasing their spell ranges would probably be the more streamlined ('5e') approach. "In addition, Counterspell and Dispel Magic's casting range are increased to 200'." or something

200' doesn't cover every spell mind you, but it covers the main offenders (like Fireball).

Doesn't help, because the limit on Counterspell isn't its range, it's the trigger that's set to 60', independently on how long range the spell itself has.

[Christew]

There is still slightly one problem about the whole dispel/counter spell feature. Most “war”like spells like fireball are cast at a much greater distance then what counterspell can work. So the feature really doesn’t work well in a battlefield environment.

Now if the feature allow the use counterspell when a spell effect is within counterspell’s range, then maybe a useful feature.
That's a good point and an interesting angle on a solution.

Yeah, the "Reaction * - which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell" is the sticking point. Something like "which you take when a spell effect targets a position within 60 feet of you" might serve, though I'm sure there's some ramifications to be considered.

[Amnestic]

Doesn't help, because the limit on Counterspell isn't its range, it's the trigger that's set to 60', independently on how long range the spell itself has.

Okay, so "casting and reaction ranges of counterspell and dispel magic" then.

[Theodoxus]

Could keep the 60' range, but Counterspell for War Wizards acts as a Dispel instead of an interrupt. Thus, if a Sorcerer is casting Fireball from 90 feet away, but the point of impact is within 60 feet of the War Wizard, then as soon as that 'bead of fire' gets within 60' of him, he can counterspell it. This would have the added benefit of negating the stupid 'counterspell the counterspell' since the originating mage is outside the 60' range.

Now, this is certainly a benefit I'd rather give an Abjurer than a War Wizard, but be that as it may, this would be a pretty elegant solution.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Funny enough, both classes were Kits for Elven Fighter/Mages in 2nd edition and their purpose there I think shows the purpose here.

Blade-singers are dualist, finesse fighters, solitary combatants blending magic with the sword (or other weapons) to create an almost dance of steel and magic.

War-Wizards are tactically minded mages looking to control a battlefield, tactically and strategically manipulating the outcomes of larger engagements than a one on one dual.

The Class Features support this.

The Bladesinger gets superior enhancements to their own personal combat ability including getting Cantrip with Extra Attack, bonuses to damage, armor, and enhanced ability to get themselves out of issues. I'd use this to have a character that hunts down single targets and eliminates them. Or goes after the biggest thing while feeling secure against others.

The Warwizard gets enhancements that help them avoid taking damage (Save and AC bonuses), go first in combat and give extra presses of damage at key moments. I'd use this wizard to lay down field control, aoe issues, then heavy target strategic foes.

[Chronos]

Quoth Man_Over_Game:

On the contrary, Fireball would decimate a whole lot of soldiers faster and more efficiently than a dozen soldiers would. 2 Fireballs over 12 seconds is even more impressive. Wizards are like the equivalent of stealth bombers. As long as you keep them alive, they are easy wins.
Ah, that explains why War Wizard is the wizard subclass that gets access to Fireball, then. They're the war casters because they're the ones who can do this thing that no other wizard can do.