Ghostly Gaze: how does it *really* work?

[Arial Black]

In tonight's game the warlock used his Ghostly Gaze invocation (Xanathar's p56):-

"As an action, you gain the ability to see through solid objects to a range of 30 feet. Within that range, you have darkvision if you don't already have it. This special sight lasts for 1 minute or until your concentration ends (as if you were concentrating on a spell). During that time, you perceive objects as ghostly, transparent images."

Because I had an interpretation which is supported by those words, I didn't think of any other way to interpret them. I found out tonight that there IS another way to interpret those same words, and those people who thought that way had never considered another way to interpret them either!

But....which way is the right way?

Is it that, within 30 feet, objects are transparent to you, but otherwise your vision works as it usually does-plus darkvision within 30 feet....

OR

....is it that while using this invocation your normal vision ceases to function, instead limiting your vision to 30 feet maximum, but giving you darkvision and objects are transparent to you?

To visualise the difference, imagine you climb to the topmost tower of your castle, up to a 5 foot by 5 foot room, four walls, with shutters on each wall. While the shutters are open, you can see for a mile, as there are no objects in the way.

Now close the shutters, and you are in a dark 5x5 room. Now use your action to gain Ghostly Gaze.

With the first interpretation, all objects with 30 feet become transparent to you (it's midday so the darkvision doesn't come into it), so you can see 1 mile in every direction as if there were no walls, but also see a transparent, ghostly image of the walls.

With the second interpretation, you see through the walls in exactly the same way....but for no further than 30 feet! Seeing....what? A grey void as a 30 foot bubble?

The words seem to support you whichever interpretation you choose! But there must be a correct way intended by the writer!

So which is it?

[Abracadangit]

I'd argue in favor of Interpretation 1. It sounds to me like "range of 30 feet" is modifying your ability to see through objects, not all of your visual faculties. There's a spell description somewhere -- I think it's the "use your familar's senses" clause of Find Familiar -- that specifically dictates that your normal senses shut off while using your familiar's. There's no special qualification here that your standard sight switches off when your x-ray vision switches on, so I'd assume I could still see farther than 30 feet, but not with x-ray magic.

Plus I don't think I'd like this ability very much, if it effectively blinded me past 30 feet. Too easy for my faraway enemies to take advantage of.

[Lunali]

Features that replace normal vision explicitly state that they do. In this case, it says you gain the ability to see through objects within 30 feet. It doesn't say anything about losing other abilities.

[Sorinth]

I would go with interpretation #2. You can see normally + additionally have this ghostly vision to a range of 30ft at the same time.

[Christew]

Features that replace normal vision explicitly state that they do. In this case, it says you gain the ability to see through objects within 30 feet. It doesn't say anything about losing other abilities.
This. You GAIN, you don't lose anything. You can see through objects within 30ft. You cannot see through objects at 31ft or more. Otherwise normal vision applies.

[Lunali]

I would go with interpretation #2. You can see normally + additionally have this ghostly vision to a range of 30ft at the same time.

That's interpretation #1.

[Kane0]

What they said.

Edit: You see normally, plus also see through things within 30' and have Darkvision within 30'. Looking through a wall does not blind you to things 30' past that wall.

[Lycurgon]

You see as normal beyond the 30'. You gain the ability to see through things and Darkvision within 30'. Nothing is subtracted, only gained.

I don't see how the text supports not seeing beyond 30'. I don't think that is a valid interpretation at all. The ability does not say that you lose sight beyond the extra abilities gained. You still have all of your normal vision. Gaining something doesn't take away ay something else unless the text says it does.

[Sorinth]

That's interpretation #1.

Maybe I wasn't clear, or there's a third interpretation.

In the original example if the shutters are closed I wouldn't expect to see the clouds in the sky because they are more then 30ft away. But I would still see things normally if I could see them without GG, so if the shutters are open and that normally I can see some mountains a few miles away, then even with Ghostly Gaze I can see those mountains, but additionally thanks to GG I can also see the vines growing on the outside of the tower.


Seeing normally means your vision is blocked by the walls and GG doesn't change that. It's like a completely separate sense and what you see is two images a GG image and a normal one superimposed on each other.

[Lunali]

Maybe I wasn't clear, or there's a third interpretation.

In the original example if the shutters are closed I wouldn't expect to see the clouds in the sky because they are more then 30ft away. But I would still see things normally if I could see them without GG, so if the shutters are open and that normally I can see some mountains a few miles away, then even with Ghostly Gaze I can see those mountains, but additionally thanks to GG I can also see the vines growing on the outside of the tower.


Seeing normally means your vision is blocked by the walls and GG doesn't change that. It's like a completely separate sense and what you see is two images a GG image and a normal one superimposed on each other.

If I'm understanding what you're saying, there's a third interpretation. I think you're saying that it would give you the ability to see anything within 30ft, ignoring cover and anything beyond that range normally, but affected by cover provided by objects within that range.

The first interpretation is that you can see anything within 30ft, ignoring cover, and anything past that range as if there was nothing within 30ft.

The second is that you can see anything within 30ft and nothing past that.

(Ignoring darkvision for now as it's largely irrelevant to the question)

[Dork_Forge]

As there's no text stating your vision is limited, other examples say things like blind beyond this range, then I'd go interpretation one.

Small correction though this is a XgtE invocation, not a Tashas one.

[Arial Black]

Small correction though this is a XgtE invocation, not a Tashas one.

Oops! Yeah, thanks for the correction. :smallsmile:

I've edited the original post.

[KorvinStarmast]

What they said.

Edit: You see normally, plus also see through things within 30' and have Darkvision within 30'. Looking through a wall does not blind you to things 30' past that wall. That's how I rule it, and I think I need to get with my brother to make sure he agrees since we have two warlocks in our party and one of us may take it at the next level up. Thanks to all of you in this thread for getting me thinking about this.

[Reach Weapon]

Seeing normally means your vision is blocked by the walls and GG doesn't change that. It's like a completely separate sense and what you see is two images a GG image and a normal one superimposed on each other.
Yes. I believe that is both a third interpretation and the one that is correct.

[Segev]

This is...somewhat an aesthetic dispute, and somewhat an ease-of-adjudication ruling, but I would reject the third option and go with whichever of the others says that items within range are effectively transparent (but still visible).

If you go with the third version, you wind up with it looking like everything around you is "pushed out" to thirty feet away, because they block vision of things beyond that but not of things ahead of that. This has been a glitch in some VR games, where background items are rendered "in front" of foreground ones, leading to really wonky views that don't look like you're seeing through things, but just make everything look "off."

From an ease-of-adjudication ruling, you don't have to determine, using the version I favor, whether anything but the obstacle is within range.

Finally, from a balance point: Invocations are not low-investment, and thus you should get the full possible range out of their use, especially utility ones like this. Let the warlock look through the wall of his tower and see the vista of the ground far below.

[Kane0]

That's how I rule it, and I think I need to get with my brother to make sure he agrees since we have two warlocks in our party and one of us may take it at the next level up. Thanks to all of you in this thread for getting me thinking about this.

I imagine the discrepancy arises when you look at a battlemap and say to yourself 'okay, my character can see everything 30' around me walls be damned', drawing out a 30' radius circle of sight while forgetting that if there is empty space on the other side of that radius you can still see until another barrier or darkness gets in your way past that 30'.
I could see that happening a lot on traditional dungeoncrawl maps.

[Sorinth]

This is...somewhat an aesthetic dispute, and somewhat an ease-of-adjudication ruling, but I would reject the third option and go with whichever of the others says that items within range are effectively transparent (but still visible).

If you go with the third version, you wind up with it looking like everything around you is "pushed out" to thirty feet away, because they block vision of things beyond that but not of things ahead of that. This has been a glitch in some VR games, where background items are rendered "in front" of foreground ones, leading to really wonky views that don't look like you're seeing through things, but just make everything look "off."

From an ease-of-adjudication ruling, you don't have to determine, using the version I favor, whether anything but the obstacle is within range.

Finally, from a balance point: Invocations are not low-investment, and thus you should get the full possible range out of their use, especially utility ones like this. Let the warlock look through the wall of his tower and see the vista of the ground far below.

Nothing gets pushed out to thirty feet, there is simply a ghostly image overlaid on top of your normal vision. Think of it as using imaging editing software, you have two images a normal colour one and the GG one. You put each into it's own layer and set the transparency of the GG layer to 50% and make it the top layer. You can now see both your normal vision and the 30ft of GG vision at the same time without any "glitchy" look.

[Segev]

Nothing gets pushed out to thirty feet, there is simply a ghostly image overlaid on top of your normal vision. Think of it as using imaging editing software, you have two images a normal colour one and the GG one. You put each into it's own layer and set the transparency of the GG layer to 50% and make it the top layer. You can now see both your normal vision and the 30ft of GG vision at the same time without any "glitchy" look.

Sure, though that begs the question why it looks solid if the thing thirty feet away behind the wall moves another foot away. Like the wall was intangible and the thing moved throughout. I am sure youlcan picture it better than that. I jus find the analogy inescapable. I also think my last point about just letting the power give you x-ray vision without worrying about whether the items seen are within thirty feet (only worrying about whether the obstacles are) remains in effect.

[Sorinth]

Sure, though that begs the question why it looks solid if the thing thirty feet away behind the wall moves another foot away. Like the wall was intangible and the thing moved throughout. I am sure youlcan picture it better than that. I jus find the analogy inescapable. I also think my last point about just letting the power give you x-ray vision without worrying about whether the items seen are within thirty feet (only worrying about whether the obstacles are) remains in effect.

I'm not sure I understand the question, you lose "sight" of it when it moves 31 feet away because you Ghostly Gaze can only see 30ft. Same as how with Darkvision would allow you to see someone at 60ft range but not at 61ft, but even with darkvision you would also still see a lit torch 100ft away. Your normal sight is normal and gives you what it normally does, your Darkvision/Ghostly Gaze is in addition to your normal vision and so allows you to possibly see things you normally can't when they are within the stated range.

Simply put the ability does what it says it does which is "see through solid objects to a range of 30 feet", so when looking through solid objects you can see through them to a range of 30ft. It also says you "perceiveobjects as ghostly, transparent images." However the magic works you aren't actually making the objects around you transparent, you are only perceiving them as such, you have an image that shows everything within 30ft.

[Kane0]

Some imagery may be helpful.

https://i.imgur.com/qkARfHc.jpg

Assuming each square is 5', I say you can see both your friend and your enemy as per interpretation #1. You can see through the grey wall, and there is nothing else beyond the range of your X-Ray vision that might block your normal line of sight. Worded differently, Ghostly Gaze allows you to ignore things blocking line of sight within 30'.

Interpretation #2 appears to be you can see friend (who is within 30') but not foe (who is outside of 30'). This interpretation does not have Ghostly Gaze interacting with Line of Sight it seems.

[Reach Weapon]

Some imagery may be helpful.
Just for completeness, assuming your image follows standard cardinal plotting, #2 also says you can't see your pet 40 feet due East of you along that unobstructed but incompletely depicted hallway, while #3 says you could.

[Kane0]

I'll add that in.

[Lunali]

Some imagery may be helpful.

https://i.imgur.com/qkARfHc.jpg

Assuming each square is 5', I say you can see both your friend and your enemy as per interpretation #1. You can see through the grey wall, and there is nothing else beyond the range of your X-Ray vision that might block your normal line of sight. Worded differently, Ghostly Gaze allows you to ignore things blocking line of sight within 30'.

Interpretation #2 appears to be you can see friend (who is within 30') but not foe (who is outside of 30'). This interpretation does not have Ghostly Gaze interacting with Line of Sight it seems.

Interpretation 1: You see all three.
Interpretation 2: You see ally and foe, but not pet. but not foe or pet.
Interpretation 3: You see ally and pet, but not foe.

[Lunali]

I think you were correct (about interpretation #2) the first time. 30' is just Ally.

Fixed, should really stop to think about things before jumping back into a discussion.