Building a character with a 4 stat [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Hobbo Jim

2021-09-15, 05:24 PM

Christew

2021-09-15, 06:12 PM

stoutstien

2021-09-15, 06:15 PM

Well both moon druids and artificers can just override the 4 if you put it in Str. the bag of holding infusion could prevent you from being the weak link with carrying capacity.
A kobold that uses their wit to gain flight and eventually get stronger than young dragons is on brand.

Abracadangit

2021-09-15, 06:18 PM

Greywander

2021-09-15, 09:39 PM

When I think 4 Str bladesinger-monk, I think of someone who's very anemic, either because of an illness or some kind of congenital condition. This could make them a deceptively deadly threat - despite their fragile appearance, their mastery of a fighting style that utilizes precision and technique over brute force (i.e. monk levels) lets them outmaneuver and outclass big muscle types who underestimate them. This also works well for an assassin-themed rogue character - their assassin's arts are all about striking at soft spots and nerve centers (i.e. sneak attack), so you still get the anemic badass effect.
I think that would be more of a low CON than a low STR. STR is your fitness and athleticism, CON is your healthiness. A character with low STR, high CON could, for example, be someone who suffered a horrible injury that mangled their body, but is otherwise in great health and never seems to get sick. A high STR, low CON would be more like someone who is always weak and sickly, but is surprisingly fit and athletic despite that.

So if the OP wants to go with a low STR, then one option is give that character a lingering injury that weakens their body but doesn't impact their healthiness. Bones that healed wrong, or severe muscle injuries where muscle tissue was permanently lost, for example. If they're a bladesinger, you could even use your wizard staff as a walking stick to help sell the crippled concept.

CheddarChampion

2021-09-15, 10:59 PM

If you're interested in characters more than builds, 4 Wisdom could be fun. Maybe you're reckless, always looking before you leap. Maybe you're so full of pride that you can't recognize when you're in danger. Maybe you're a reckless, prideful sorcerer who is half mad with power.

4 Intelligence is probably best avoided if you want to RP your ability scores. Stuff like head trauma, a learning disability, or getting put into a coma as a child and waking up as an adult could get uncomfortable for you and for others. Modern era and what have you. Go for outlandish explanations instead.

One 4 Intelligence idea that might work: you're an animal that was turned into a humanoid; you're still getting the hang of sapience.

TyGuy

2021-09-15, 11:35 PM

Embrace the not so commonly dumped stat options ;)

The PC was a woodsman. During his time in the forest he crossed paths with a fey creature and slighted it. As punishment, the fey cursed him by partially turning him to wood. What a cruel joke, a woodsman made of wood...
As a result, he's lost his Dexterity and moves like he's... made of wood. But this curse comes with some advantages. The wood-cursed woodsman can channel the power of his tree-like form to become strong and as resilient as ironwood.

Vhuman
Alert
14/4/16/13/13/13
Totem Warrior Barbarian
Bear-Bear-Wolf

The low Dex is explained by the curse. Rage is really drawing on the power of the tree more than going angry mode. Finding a hag or some other fey to undo the curse makes a good bond. Should probably use a great axe and throwing hand axes for the irony.

Hytheter

2021-09-15, 11:48 PM

Put it in CON, see how long you can last.

Corey

2021-09-16, 12:34 AM

Ideas I like from or inspired by the above:

Low STR based on a limb or other body part being gone or useless. On one leg, you just can't do most STR-based tasks.
Low DEX can't quite work the same way, because some DEX tasks are legs-mainly while some are hands-only. But some kind of body-wide systemic malfunction could work, as per the turned-partly-to-wood idea above. Particularly suited to certain races, e.g. Warforged.
Low INT based on lack of knowledge rather than true lack of intelligence. You're amnesiac, or as noted above were recently some other kind of thing. (But if so than the transformation probably shouldn't be dispellable.)
Low CHA because for some reason you can barely talk. But that might not fit well with heavy RP.
Low WIS because your sight is messed up (but with workarounds for combat). Most WIS is based on observation.

Wizard of Oz might provide some inspiration.

Kane0

2021-09-16, 02:04 AM

Put it in CON, see how long you can last.

Seconded. Dont even deliberately go facetank barbarian or anything, just a normal character who happens to have brittle bone disease.

XmonkTad

2021-09-16, 12:57 PM

Put it in CON, see how long you can last.
This. And play a D6 HD class too. Remember, the lowest HP you can get per level is 1!

Corey

2021-09-16, 01:07 PM

This. And play a D6 HD class too. Remember, the lowest HP you can get per level is 1!

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pixie_(5e_Race)

chiefwaha

2021-09-16, 01:28 PM

A warlock that had to give up their strength as a part of their pact with their patron. Perhaps an unintended or poorly thought out consequence.

Man_Over_Game

2021-09-16, 01:32 PM

I've always been wanting to make an Astral Soul monk with Telekinesis and no arms. Fairly optimized, very badass.

RogueJK

2021-09-16, 01:47 PM

Astral Soul monk with Telekinesis and no arms.

Great suggestion. That'd be something like a Variant Human with
STR 4
DEX 16
CON 13+1
INT 13
WIS 14+1
CHA 13
With Telekinetic +1 WIS at 1st level, then maybe Mobile and +2 WIS.

Another good option would be a Tortle Moon Druid. Maybe with an overly large and bulky shell, to explain the low DEX.
STR 13
DEX 4
CON 14+1
INT 13
WIS 16+2
CHA 13
Going Resilient CON for +1 CON and CON save proficiency, then +2 WIS, and then maybe the Alert feat.

You'd be Wild Shaped during most major combats, so the low DEX won't hurt you then, since you adopt the physical stats of your animal form. And your Tortle Natural Armor ignores the DEX penalty to AC in your natural form. Maybe take the Alert feat at some point, to help counteract the Initiative penalty. Then you'd only really have to worry about stuff like Stealth/Acrobatics checks or DEX saves, when in your natural form.

Or a Tortle War Wizard:
STR 13
DEX 4
CON 14+1
INT 16+2
WIS 13
CHA 13
Going Resilient CON for +1 CON and CON save proficiency, then +2 INT.
War Wizard gets +INT to Initiative, so that balances that penalty.

Or if you really want to mitigate a DEX penalty, how about a Mountain Dwarf Gloomstalker Ranger X/Twilight Cleric 1, or Ranger 5/Cleric X (either way starting Ranger 1, then Cleric 1 for heavy armor, then Ranger to 5):
STR 14+2
DEX 4
CON 13
INT 13
WIS 16+2
CHA 13
Going Shield Master, Resilient CON, and +2 STR.
Heavy Armor means DEX won't hurt your AC. Between the Shield Master feat and your DEX save proficiency, you've helped mitigate the DEX save penalty (especially against effects that only target you). Gloomstalker 3 gets you +WIS to Initiative so no penalty there, and you could take the Alert feat too. Plus you'd have 330' Darkvision. But the full mitigation doesn't come online until Level 5 (Ranger 4/Cleric 1). And he's not really a Gloomstalker... more like a Gloomstomper. :smallbiggrin:

Man_Over_Game

2021-09-16, 03:24 PM

Great suggestion. That'd be something like a Variant Human with
STR 4
DEX 16
CON 13+1
INT 13
WIS 14+1
CHA 13
With Telekinetic +1 WIS at 1st level, then maybe Mobile and +2 WIS.

You don't really need Mobile, as the Astral Self form has Reach, and you can always use Step of the Wind for when you otherwise need more mobility.

Hobbo Jim

2021-09-21, 12:47 AM

Put it in CON, see how long you can last.
I honestly support this, except that I would actively put my group members in danger since they think they have a fourth person but really don't (wild marches style game).

This. And play a D6 HD class too. Remember, the lowest HP you can get per level is 1!
I didn't remember that. Someone on the server suggested I play a really old guy that has a chance of losing health every time he gets more experience because he's aging :smallbiggrin:

I've always been wanting to make an Astral Soul monk with Telekinesis and no arms. Fairly optimized, very badass.
I'm not really familiar with a lot of UA, but that's why I solicited the forums! I might have to go for this one. Looks like the limiting factor, at least at low levels, would be ki points. Kinda hard to function without them.

Great suggestion. That'd be something like a Variant Human with
...

Or a Tortle War Wizard:
STR 13
DEX 4
CON 14+1
INT 16+2
WIS 13
CHA 13
Going Resilient CON for +1 CON and CON save proficiency, then +2 INT.
War Wizard gets +INT to Initiative, so that balances that penalty.

...
Dumping dex and going tortle sounds like a lot of fun also, since it's also pretty thematic for a tortle to be slow and clumsy.

As far as RPing mental stats goes, Dumping int sounds terrible, while dumping Wis and Cha would probably be pretty funny at first, but I'm not sure they'd stay entertaining for very long. The two physical stat dumps seem much more appealing, since it gives me an obstacle to overcome during the game that isn't DM enforced (feels bad) or self inflicted (feels bad for group)

Appreciate all the help/comments!

kazaryu

2021-09-21, 02:06 AM

I'm on a play by text (lots of RP) discord DnD server, and we roll a generous 4d6 drop the lowest, best of 2 sets above 70.

This usually results in people having solid scores, with nothing typically lower than an 8 or 10 and at least 1 16, with several "mediocre" scores.

My wonderful rolls resulted in...
16, 14, 13, 13, 13, 4

My original idea was to build a bladesinger kobold pirate, but I'm looking for some inspiration to utilize the low stat. Part of me was wondering if I could finagle a bladesinger monk combo and writing some sort of curse that nuked my character's strength so I have to find ways around it. Any solid ideas? I'm not particularly attached to the idea I have currently, plus I'm not sure if I have decent enough stats to build a solid bladesinger multiclass. Both build & backstory/RP ideas are welcome, since it would be nice to have a decent character in addition to fun RP options. 4 is just such a low number, especially for this campaign.

Setting is pretty open, relatively high fantasy. Starting with T1 (level 3), but hopefully will get to T2 & T3. T4 is pretty unlikely.

go hill dwarf and grab tough ASAP. then put that 4 in con. you still get at least 4 hp per level (wizard scaling with 0 con). and play them as being a venerable, or (possibly some type of degenerative illness) dwarf. possibly a cleric or druid. you're out adventuring hoping to quickly create a legacy before you die, or if you go the venerable route, you're trying to pass on some newfound wisdom. perhaps you were a scrooge type character, once rich, but had some type of epiphany late in life, and you gave all of your riches away and devoted yourself to...some god.

idk, something like that.

Leon

2021-09-21, 07:44 AM

Ran a game once with a Cleric that had 4 Int, it was quite funny as anything he said had to be translated through the next least intelligent character making checks as they shared a root language.

RogueJK

2021-09-21, 09:04 AM

I'm not really familiar with a lot of UA

Astral Self and Telekinesis aren't UA. They're a published Monk subclass and feat from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-21, 09:13 AM

Hmm, STR 4 (-3).
Carrying capacity: 60 lbs
Push/lift/drag: 120 lbs
Long jump: 4 ft
Standing long jump: 2 ft
High jump: 0 ft
Standing high jump: 0 ft

Gotta love a system where you can jump 4 ft across the ground, yet cannot leave the ground if you try to go vertical. I know some people whose standing vertical leap is almost negligible.

Seconded. Don't even deliberately go facetank barbarian or anything, just a normal character who happens to have brittle bone disease. I suggest against a 4 Con. We have a warlock with a 7 Con (-2 per die) who at second level goes down with one hit with considerable frequency. We spend a lot of time just getting them up off the ground. And with poison being a common low level rider to attacks/damage, -2 con save amplifies the problem.

I suggest the -4 Str, or -4 Cha, and see how it goes. I love the kobold monk idea. :smallsmile:

RogueJK

2021-09-21, 09:31 AM

I suggest against a 4 Con.

Especially considering they're recommending going Cleric or Druid in that same paragraph. -3 to Concentration Checks is rough on a caster.

From a survivability standpoint, best case scenario for a character with a 4 CON would be something like a Hill Dwarf Sharpshooter Archer Battlemaster. Out of melee, hanging out at long range, with bonus racial HP, CON save proficiency to help counterbalance the big CON save penalty when needed (plus racial poison bonuses), no Concentration concerns, and no class abilities that rely on CON.
STR 13+1
DEX 16+2
CON 4
INT 13
WIS 14
CHA 13
Take Sharpshooter at Level 4, +2 DEX at Level 6, and then +2 CON at Levels 8, 12, and 14. (Gradually growing tougher as they level up.)

Or, if you want to retain the 4 CON as a part of your roleplaying flavor, do something like a Hill Dwarf Samurai Fighter archer:
STR 13
DEX 16+2
CON 4
INT 13
WIS 14
CHA 13+1
With Tough at 4, Sharpshooter at 6, +2 DEX at 8, and then Lucky and Inspiring Leader at 12 and 14 (or Vice Versa).

kazaryu

2021-09-21, 09:41 AM

Especially considering they're recommending going Cleric or Druid in that same paragraph. -3 to Concentration Checks is rough on a caster. oh no..a character with a weakness...its almost like thje OP was all about trying to play into that weakness...

jokes aside, he wasn't replying to me, i was the one suggesting a druid/cleric. not Kane. That being said, the point was to play a wiser, sage type archetype. cleric/druids are the classes that most closeles fit that in base lore. and really, a cleric or druid can stand back too. they don't need to be taking damage all that much and a druid could wildshape to cancel out the bad con.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-21, 09:59 AM

cleric/druids are the classes that most closeles fit that in base lore. and really, a cleric or druid can stand back too. they don't need to be taking damage all that much and a druid could wildshape to cancel out the bad con. A 4 str druid or cleric works fine. Be a halfling or a gnome to double down on small and weak theme ...

Sigreid

2021-09-21, 10:03 AM

I'd put the 4 in wisdom, make the rest of the character I wanted and enjoy the RP of making some staggeringly unwise decisions. Start small to get the group used to the idea that they have to be ready at all times to stop you from doing something unwise.

kazaryu

2021-09-21, 10:05 AM

A 4 str druid or cleric works fine. Be a halfling or a gnome to double down on small and weak theme ...

mechanically, yes. but the OP mentions wanting to actually do something with the low stat. like...sure what you're talking about is thematic...sort of. Im talking about incorporation the low stat into the core of the character. a cleric doesn't care that it has a 4 str, except that it may not be able to wear the absolute best armor without taking a penalty. but a 4 con? all characters care about that. Sure, its a bit of a gimp to the character. but a somewhat depowered cleric is...well, still a cleric. there's still a lot you can do with it.

i think our disagreement really just boils down to what it means to 'use' a stat. sure, you can have a low str, and talk about your low str. but if its not actually impacting you in any way...then IMO you're not really using it. not really leaning into it.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-21, 10:24 AM

i think our disagreement really just boils down to what it means to 'use' a stat. sure, you can have a low str, and talk about your low str. but if its not actually impacting you in any way...then IMO you're not really using it. not really leaning into it. I am not sure what kind of disagreement you see; CON isn't a dumpable stat for some basic mechanical reasons in this edition.
Insofar as 'leaning into it' I no longer get any joy from willfully gimped characters (been there, done that, not interested in doing it any more) so I doubt that you'll ever see me suggest doing so. I'll generally suggest something thematic.

kazaryu

2021-09-21, 09:44 PM

I am not sure what kind of disagreement you see; CON isn't a dumpable stat for some basic mechanical reasons in this edition.
Insofar as 'leaning into it' I no longer get any joy from willfully gimped characters (been there, done that, not interested in doing it any more) so I doubt that you'll ever see me suggest doing so. I'll generally suggest something thematic.

Except...it is dumpable. You could have a con of 1 and still gain a decent number of hp, at least enough to keep up with a 10con wizard. If you go cleric/druid you can get 5 hp per level. Which is on par with a 12 con wizard. And a caster having a bad concentration check is a weakness, but far from making a character useless. Its not like im suggesting they dump their primary stat. In most cases con is tertiary (right behind dex) and in some rare cases its secondary.

Finally, if you choose to go druid, again, you can negate the bad constitution score.

Hytheter

2021-09-21, 10:25 PM

You could have a con of 1 and still gain a decent number of hp, at least enough to keep up with a 10con wizard. If you go cleric/druid you can get 5 hp per level.

I don't follow. How can a d8 hit die with -5 con possibly yield 5hp per level? You'd be lucky if you got any.

kazaryu

2021-09-22, 02:58 AM

I don't follow. How can a d8 hit die with -5 con possibly yield 5hp per level? You'd be lucky if you got any.

you're conflating 2 statements. a 10 con wizard is 4hp per level, not 5. you gain a minimum of 1 hp from HD when you level. +1 hp for a hill dwarf, +2 hp for tough. you're squishy, but you have HP.

the 5hp was for a 4 con cleric/druid. which is 5-3 from HD + 1 hill dwarf +2 tough.

Class Features and Hit Dice

When your character gains a level, his or her class often grants additional features, as detailed in the class description. Some of these features allow you to increase your ability scores, either increasing two scores by 1 each or increasing one score by 2. You can’t increase an ability score above 20. In addition, every character's proficiency bonus increases at certain levels.

Each time you gain a level, you gain 1 additional Hit Die. Roll that Hit Die, add your Constitution modifier to the roll, and add the total (minimum of 1) to your hit point maximum. Alternatively, you can use the fixed value shown in your class entry, which is the average result of the die roll (rounded up).

Hytheter

2021-09-22, 03:43 AM

you're conflating 2 statements. a 10 con wizard is 4hp per level, not 5. you gain a minimum of 1 hp from HD when you level. +1 hp for a hill dwarf, +2 hp for tough. you're squishy, but you have HP.

the 5hp was for a 4 con cleric/druid. which is 5-3 from HD + 1 hill dwarf +2 tough.

I didn't conflate anything. I just didn't realise you were talking about a Tough Hill Dwarf. edit: oh no wait, I did mix up that you were talking about 4 con in the latter sentence, but that wasn't the root of my confusion either way.

kazaryu

2021-09-22, 03:50 AM

I didn't conflate anything. I just didn't realise you were talking about a Tough Hill Dwarf. edit: oh no wait, I did mix up that you were talking about 4 con in the latter sentence, but that wasn't the root of my confusion either way.

yeah no worries. the tough hill dwarf goes back to my first post where i suggested putting the 4 in con. i would definitely not recommend trying to play a character that is gonna max out at like....25 hp lol. 85 though seems doable. challenging, but at least you can survive some things...

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-22, 07:25 AM

Except...it is dumpable. You could have a con of 1 and still gain a decent number of hp, at least enough to keep up with a 10con wizard. In a white room, not in actual game play.

kazaryu

2021-09-22, 07:40 AM

In a white room, not in actual game play.

yes...in actual gameplay. you can, actually, scale HP the same as a 10 con wizard. That isn't a white room analysis, its....how numbers work.

and squishy people survive all the time in actual gameplay. you could even go abjurer on top of that and now you have wizard with 14con scaling if you were too worried about being instagibbed, but even druid or cleric could have wizard with 12con HP scaling. and if you think that people don't play like that, you're delusional. admittedly, you'd start off with extremely low HP, but lvl 1-3 PC's tend to be pretty squishy anyway. especially casters.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-22, 07:49 AM

yes...in actual gameplay. you can, Our warlock with a 7 Con has dropped to 0 HP in every single combat encounter but save two, and in one of those I was between him and the enemy such that they could not get at him.

Every single one.

Not buying what you are selling.

its....how numbers work.
In a white room sure it does. Real gameplay is kinda swingy.
Small sample size is a reality of combats that last 3 or 4 rounds.

kazaryu

2021-09-22, 07:58 AM

Our warlock with a 7 Con has dropped to 0 HP in every single combat encounter but save two, and in one of those I was between him and the enemy such that they could not get at him.

Every single one.

Not buying what you are selling.

that sounds like a you problem. don't generalize your game across the entire hobby.

also...so what if he dropped to 0? did he die? did he contribute? what were his tactics like? did he use cover? what levels? there are a million things that are as relevant to the warlock dropping to 0 as their con modifier, and you touched on none of them.

also, a warlcok with 7 con is 3 hp per level unless they have tough, or are a hill dwarf. thats less hp per level than even the lowest number i used as an estimate. and its less than half of what you'd get from going hilldwarf tough aburer. oh right...and its also a warlcok, not a druid. so it can't cancel out its low con score in any way. like, come on dude, if you're gonna be anecdotal at least use an anecdote thats comparable.

for example: i am currently playing a 10con full caster (i say full caster because its several different full caster classes. its currently got levels in both sorcerer and warlcok) and i've not had a problem with going down. still anecdotal evidence, so...basically worthless. but at least its comparable.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-22, 08:03 AM

for example: i am currently playing a 10con full caster (i say full caster because its several different full caster classes. its currently got levels in both sorcerer and warlcok) and i've not had a problem with going down. still anecdotal evidence, so...basically worthless. but at least its comparable. 10 con is not a dump. No minus values.

While I personally prefer a 12 or 14 con for all PCs I make, I can see playing a 10 Con PC if one plays with sufficient caution. (Use a bit of an Old School/OSR paranoia approach). The annoying part, in this edition, is going to be getting through all of the poison saves in Tier 1.

kazaryu

2021-09-22, 08:16 AM

10 con is not a dump. No minus values.

While I personally prefer a 12 or 14 con for all PCs I make, I can see playing a 10 Con PC if one plays with sufficient caution. (Use a bit of an Old School/OSR paranoia approach). The annoying part, in this edition, is going to be getting through all of the poison saves in Tier 1.

i used 10 con because of HP scaling. a 10 con wizard gets 4hp per level. a tough hill dwarf gets a minimum of 4hp per level. thats why its comparable. but you're right, the reduction in con saves can be a worry, particularly early when you haven't been able to grab tough yet. But unless you're playing with a cutthroat DM...idk, as a DM I'd be somewhat gentle with the dude that had the balls to dump constitution. but especially if you go the wizard route, you're really not gonna have much HP at low levels anyway. LVL 1 its really easy to kill you. lvl3 you're at a little over double your lvl 1 HP. so you're better off...i guess. idk, as i said, its gonna be rough for the first 3 levels, for sure. but once you get tough, you're in good enough shape.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-22, 08:27 AM

.idk, as a DM I'd be somewhat gentle with the dude that had the balls to dump constitution. I don't, the world is rather uncaring. In this edition, though, there are a lot of ways to get up after 0 HP so the odds of char death are significantly reduced. Wizard going 6 10 14 18 isn't hale and hearty, but can usually avoid death and may get knocked to 0 now and again.

There is one catch, though.

A number of monsters drop your max HP on a hit (specter and wraith come to mind).
If the PC gets hit a few times, and your max HP goes from, say, 22 to 11, and then some monster crits and drops 22 on you (I am pretty sure an ogre can do that with a decent roll) The PC is now dead, since the margin is -11, not -22, at that point. :smalleek:
(Just double checked my ogre: yeah, from 2d8+4 to 4d8+4 is an average of 22)

kazaryu

2021-09-22, 08:40 AM

I don't, the world is rather uncaring. In this edition, though, there are a lot of ways to get up after 0 HP so the odds of char death are significantly reduced. Wizard going 6 10 14 18 isn't hale and hearty, but can usually avoid death and may get knocked to 0 now and again.

There is one catch, though.

A number of monsters drop your max HP on a hit (specter and wraith come to mind).
If the PC gets hit a few times, and your max HP goes from, say, 22 to 11, and then some monster crits and drops 22 on you (I am pretty sure an ogre can do that with a decent roll) The PC is now dead, since the margin is -11, not -22, at that point. :smalleek:
(Just double checked my ogre: yeah, from 2d8+4 to 4d8+4 is an average of 22)

sure, but a tough hill dwarf doesn't actually have a lower max hp than a 10con wizard. so the risk isn't all that much greater dumping con in this case. and thats why i specified 'at low level' is where this is at its biggest risk. because obviously lvl 1-3 you haven't grabbed tough yet, so you're a bit behind on hp. but after that you're not at any more risk (hp wise) than a wizard thats on teh squishier side. and in some ways, you may even be safer than a high hp wizard, if you invested in dex instead of con.

XmonkTad

2021-09-22, 08:48 AM

If the PC gets hit a few times, and your max HP goes from, say, 22 to 11, and then some monster crits and drops 22 on you (I am pretty sure an ogre can do that with a decent roll) The PC is now dead, since the margin is -11, not -22, at that point. :smalleek:
(Just double checked my ogre: yeah, from 2d8+4 to 4d8+4 is an average of 22)
Make 5e rocket tag again!

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-22, 08:59 AM

sure, but a tough hill dwarf doesn't actually have a lower max hp than a 10con wizard. so the risk isn't all that much greater dumping con in this case. and thats why i specified 'at low level' is where this is at its biggest risk. because obviously lvl 1-3 you haven't grabbed tough yet, so you're a bit behind on hp. but after that you're not at any more risk (hp wise) than a wizard thats on teh squishier side. and in some ways, you may even be safer than a high hp wizard, if you invested in dex instead of con. Tough brings with it an opportunity cost, though. Some other feat not taken (alert, war caster, resilient con) or the ASI not boosted to get that spell save DC up, and so on. It's not a free luncheon. On the flip side, though It does allow the 10 CON choice at chargen, provided one survives, to free up points/rolls to boost other stats. (Example being the monk at level 1 with standard array?)

And the hill dwarf is an edge case. :smallyuk:

You could exploit Tasha's and run the +1 +2 as floating, and make a Hill Dwarf Draconic Origin Sorcerer who starts with a Cha of 16 and a Dex of 16 and leaves CON initially at 10. That's an exercise in optimization, however, but you've given me an idea. :smallbiggrin: He starts with medium armor proficiency, but he could just as easily pump another stat or two thanks to Draconic Sorcerer's AC benefit ...

+1 HP for Hill Dwarf and +1 HP for Draconic Origin, not to mention a 16 AC (not getting hit as often) starts this sorcerer with 8 HP and gets him 6 per level up. At level 4 he has 26 and CON saves are with proficiency.
Which is two points shy of what a 12 Con Cleric or Warlock gets.

kazaryu

2021-09-22, 09:21 AM

Tough brings with it an opportunity cost, though. Some other feat not taken (alert, war caster, resilient con) or the ASI not boosted to get that spell save DC up, and so on. It's not a free luncheon. On the flip side, though It does allow the 10 CON choice at chargen, provided one survives, to free up points/rolls to boost other stats. (Example being the monk at level 1 with standard array?)

And the hill dwarf is an edge case. :smallyuk:

You could exploit Tasha's and run the +1 +2 as floating, and make a Hill Dwarf Draconic Origin Sorcerer who starts with a Cha of 16 and a Dex of 16 and leaves CON initially at 10. That's an exercise in optimization, however, but you've given me an idea. :smallbiggrin: He starts with medium armor proficiency, but he could just as easily pump another stat or two thanks to Draconic Sorcerer's AC benefit ...

+1 HP for Hill Dwarf and +1 HP for Draconic Origin, not to mention a 16 AC (not getting hit as often) starts this sorcerer with 8 HP and gets him 6 per level up. At level 4 he has 26 and CON saves are with proficiency.
Which is two points shy of what a 12 Con Cleric or Warlock gets.

i mean...oh right, i forgot dwarfs get a +2con in my calculations. so with that, a druid/cleric would be getting 6hp per level. and yah, i agree that tough has that opportunity cost. by no means am i saying that dumpin con is optimized (or that it could ever really be optimized. i just don't think the OP was looking for pure optimization. they seemed to be looking for interesting things they could do with that 4.

SLOTHRPG95

2021-09-23, 10:59 PM

you're conflating 2 statements. a 10 con wizard is 4hp per level, not 5. you gain a minimum of 1 hp from HD when you level. +1 hp for a hill dwarf, +2 hp for tough. you're squishy, but you have HP.

...Is that how most people would run this? If I ever had a player in one of my groups actually dump CON hard but take Tough/be a Hill Dwarf/bonus HP from Draconic Sorc/etc. then I'd count that as part of the "roll" not a separate pool. So 5 Con Tough Hill Dwarf (4 is impossible in my no-Tasha's game) Wizard would roll 1d6 - 3 + 1 + 2 i.e. 1d6 for hit points each level. Hence the minimum hit points gained would still be only one per level.

To OP: I'd second dumping Wis, maybe as a Fiendlock? I always thought selling your soul to the lower realms shows a lack of common sense and/or self-control. Something like a Half-Elf Scholar who was well-read enough to know how to summon Mammon for riches and foolish enough to try it. With your spread I'd go 13 Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 4 Wis 18 Cha.

kazaryu

2021-09-24, 01:21 AM

...Is that how most people would run this? If I ever had a player in one of my groups actually dump CON hard but take Tough/be a Hill Dwarf/bonus HP from Draconic Sorc/etc. then I'd count that as part of the "roll" not a separate pool. So 5 Con Tough Hill Dwarf (4 is impossible in my no-Tasha's game) Wizard would roll 1d6 - 3 + 1 + 2 i.e. 1d6 for hit points each level. Hence the minimum hit points gained would still be only one per level.

To OP: I'd second dumping Wis, maybe as a Fiendlock? I always thought selling your soul to the lower realms shows a lack of common sense and/or self-control. Something like a Half-Elf Scholar who was well-read enough to know how to summon Mammon for riches and foolish enough to try it. With your spread I'd go 13 Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 4 Wis 18 Cha.

i mean...if thats how you'd play it, then thats fine. its not RaW, but its a fine way to do it. the level up rules specify that HD+con have a minimum of 1. not that the HP you get per level is a minimum of 1. and nothing about tough, hilldwarf, or dragon sorc alter that.

but even in that case, you'd still gain 4-5 hp per level. wizard gets 4-3 from HD, you don't actually need to rely on the 'minimum 1'

Mr. Wonderful

2021-09-24, 08:15 PM

I had a lot of fun with a Dragonborn Paladin with a 4 DEX.

Using your stat block I would go S18 I13 W13 Cn14 D4 Ch14, with the racial subclass an RP choice. Jump in that heavy armor and you won't be penalized too much. Turns even the easiest Stealth checks into its own adventure!

But putting that stat in Wisdom might be more fun. One gentleman I play with likes to rock those kind of characters, and for him, the key goal is to somehow convince the rest of the party to do some amazingly unwise things. It works from time to time!