HIPS +Darkstalker +Craven +Archer?

[bean illus]

Full attack and sneak attack.
I was looking at triggering Craven on an Archer.

I should point out immediately that this isn't a 'divine power ftw', or '7 levels of chameleon' build. The current build uses Invisible Fist (later a ring), Dark template, Cloistered 1, and only has 1 level available (2 with LA buy-off). This is a post about how much over-build is needed for an archer to full attack sneak attack, with the smallest level and feat investment.

Invisible Fist could be replaced with 1 level of Swordsage, but i was gonna cheese martial monk for IPS and Weapon Supremacy, so that's included in the trade. If i scratch both, and use the ring only, i have 3-4 levels available (but can be dispelled).

As far as i can tell; greater invisibility, hide, Dark template, Darkstalker. If i win the spot check, is the opponent then flat footed for the full attack?

I know the rule that you can attack while hidden at -20, and the one that invisibility grants a +20 while moving ... 1/2 speed? A move is still needed. Travel devotion, or some way to have move actions.

I assume a raptoran who has that package can fly silently, invisible, and full attack. After the surprise round, and winning inititive, the losers are still flat-footed, and sneak attack still applies to every shot?

What about the rest of combat? Are all combatants that have not detected me flat-footed?
***

Dark template has limitations (either daylight, or daylight spell). Is shade sufficient? What to do when those limits exist? I'll assume you can't drop marbles, and hide in their shadow. Can you hide in your backpacks shadow? Your companion's? Need a shadow the size of a crouching form?
How to create mundane cover or concealment? Magical?

Fly while hiding (shadows, tree to tree, etc)?

***
Stalker of Karesh HiPS (Ex) might be best, in some ways. It works in daylight or darkness, inside or outside. If you happen to want favored enemy - evil, then it's only a 2 level cost. It's (Ex), so no problems. Still need concealment with that.

Shadow template is an option. When do they get their abilities? At 5th n 9th level, or 8th and 12th?
That's total concealment as a passive action, once it's achieved? +2 LA hurts, but BAB 16 is achievable. It might be worth it, if it's continuous total concealment.
By daylight, would this work under a shade tree?

What parts do I have wrong? Any other pointers?

[Anthrowhale]

The exact build that you have in mind or question isn't clear to me so it's hard to comment.

However, one useful trick here is a ring of blinking + the seeking enchantment. The former makes you strike as an invisible creature and the latter negates the miss chances that blinking imposes.

A more complex trick is to get the 'Word Given Form' martial art, which provides an Ex source of total concealment. The feat tax(5) is high, but you can pay for 2 of them with the Golden Dancing Pegleg graft.

[bean illus]

The exact build that you have in mind or question isn't clear to me so it's hard to comment.

However, one useful trick here is a ring of blinking + the seeking enchantment. The former makes you strike as an invisible creature and the latter negates the miss chances that blinking imposes.

A more complex trick is to get the 'Word Given Form' martial art, which provides an Ex source of total concealment. The feat tax(5) is high, but you can pay for 2 of them with the Golden Dancing Pegleg graft.

Those are good tricks. I don't really have questions about the build, i have questions about the above forms of concealment. The ring of blinking is absolutely RAW.

Edit: The build isn't finished, but uses swift hunter and stalker of kharash, ronin 1, and exoticist fighter 2, probably warblade 1, for at least 11 levels, and probably raptoran . The plan is to fly while invisible, and hit often, for 50-80 damage before hunters mercy.

[Anthrowhale]

After the surprise round, and winning inititive, the losers are still flat-footed, and sneak attack still applies to every shot?

Creatures are generally flat-footed until their turn comes up. A surprised low initiative creature can be attacked twice before having a chance to react.


Are all combatants that have not detected me flat-footed?

The Rules Compendium says that hidden from opponent implies opponent flat-footed.


Dark template has limitations (either daylight, or daylight spell). Is shade sufficient? What to do when those limits exist? I'll assume you can't drop marbles, and hide in their shadow. Can you hide in your backpacks shadow? Your companion's? Need a shadow the size of a crouching form?

I'd say that shade is sufficient and it must be of a scale at least commensurate with a creature that is trying to hide.

[RNightstalker]

If going the blink route, keep in mind the speed and sight reductions.

[bean illus]

So here's some unfinished build notes. It's been shuffled several times, and I won't be surprised if mistakes are found.
One difficulty was avoiding multiclass penalties. I've labeled builds accordingly.

Some builds leave room for Dark template, others have room for stalker of kharash 4 HiPS. They all have a bit of room for adjust to taste.

There's an Int synergy that's inherent in the build, with knowledge devotion and warblade features, but it's not reflected in the stats. The builds use wands of foxes cunning, or even an item to boost these.
The foot bow adds × 1 1/2 Str bonus, so a +4 buff becomes a +6 dam. Wild Cohort is offered as a flaw feat, because DC 15 is easy on a high Dex character, and DC 20 free action dismount is another way to full attack.

These are set up for raptoran, NG or CG.

Primary goals include
Mundane Flight
FE-Arcane
Ranger 4 Solitary Hunter (FE to att n dam)
Darkstalker and detect concealed
Improved Favored Enemy
Favored Enemy-Evil (before FE2)
Travel Devo, Know Devo+Collector of Stories
Swift Hunter @ 12th (after FE-Evil)
Ancestral Relic.


Later goals include
Craven
Crossbow Sniper
Increase utility, and self buffs.
Mantain goals for attack and damage by challenge rating to one shot most opponents.


Stalker of Kharash taxes 2 feats. I do it by using Ancestral Relic, which an archer can use well, to enter Anointed Knight for Alertness.

I WOULD LOVE SUGGESTIONS on improving any of these builds. A particular question is: do i have over-build in areas? Holes in defense too big to live with?

Dex > Str >
14 16 12 12 12 12


Flaw Darkstalker / Nemisis - Evil
Flaw Wild Cohort

S Battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge, FotC
R FE Arcane Hunter, Track, WE,
R RS, Ancestral Relic

R Endurance
R Solitary Hunter
S Skirmish (+1d6), trapfinding, Imp FE

Anointed Knight Alertness
SoK
SoK FE Evil, Nemisis - Evil / Darkstalker

CC War = WF LB, Know, Travel Devo
XX +1 BAB, of choice, or Dark template
S Fast movement +10 ft., trackless step, Swift Hunter Skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC) FE 2 UNDEAD - +2 Evil, Knowledge Devotion, Collector of Stories

This 11 of 12 levels allows a plethora of build endings.

+10 BAB, -2 Rapid shot, +5 dex = +13 /+13 /+8
FE-Evil +6, FE-Magic +5 = +11
Know Devo+Story Collector = 5 +level/2 +3 +1 = +15



The rest of these builds try to get craven, and crossbow sniper, without losing too much.



This one leaves Cloistered until 10th, and uses dead eye. It could lose woodland archer for any number of feats.

Raptoran, Dark template +1 LA (or with buy-off *)
Flaw Darkstalker / Nemisis
Flaw Wild Cohort

S Battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge, FotC
R FE Arcanist, Track, WE,
R RS, Ancestral Relic

R Endurance
R Solitary Hunter
S FE 2, Skirmish (+1d6), trapfinding, Imp FE

Anointed Knight Alertness
SoK
SoK FE Evil, Nemisis - Evil / Darkstalker

CC War = WF LB, Know*, Travel Devo
Warblade Weapon Aptitude, Blood in the Water
S Fast movement +10 ft., trackless step, Knowledge Devotion, Collector of Stories, Swift Hunter Skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC) FE 2 UNDEAD - +2 Evil

Raptoran Exoticist-Hit and Run Tactics EWP: BS, Bolas, Net, Kaorti arrows, Encumbered flight, PBS
OCh Glory, Dead Eye
WB 2 Imp Uncanny Dodge, Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, Woodland Archer / PS

MMo Crossbow Sniper
MMo Invisible Stalker, IRS
Ronin +1d6, Craven

Warblade 3 Battle Clarity, Dancing Mongoose
+ OPEN LEVEL (specialist conjurer, abrupt jaunt, combat wizard - precise shot. Place this at level 11, and move warblade to level 13 or higher,* when you want splitting on your Ancestral Relic)



Here i try to avoid multiclass penalties, and mostly succeed. Solitary Hunter comes way late.


Flaw Darkstalker / Nemisis - Evil
Flaw Wild Cohort

CC War = WF LB, Know, Knowledge Devotion, FotC
R FE Arcanist, Track, WE,
R RS, Ancestral Relic

Exoticist EWP: BS, Bolas, Net, Kaorti arrows, PBS
Ex Hit and Run Tactics, Dead Eye
Warblade Weapon Aptitude, Blood in the Water, Imp FE

Anointed Knight Alertness
SoK
SoK FE Evil, Nemisis - Evil / Darkstalker

S FE 2, Skirmish (+1d6), trapfinding,
S Battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge,
S Fast movement +10 ft., trackless step, Swift Hunter Skirmish (+2d6, +1 AC) FE 2 UNDEAD - +2 Evil, Travel Devo

WB 2 Imp Uncanny Dodge, Iron Heart Surge
R Endurance
Warblade 3 Dancing Mongoose, Woodland Archer

Exoticist 3
R Solitary Hunter, (+2d6, +2 AC)
Ronin +1d6, Craven

S 4 WF CB
Exoticist 4 Crossbow Sniper


This next might be my favorite.

Cloistered comes first, and i lose the need for ancestral relic. No template, but solitary hunting with improved FE comes early. IT TOTALLY ignores multiclass penalties, and uses martial invisible fist, abrupt jaunt, etc. It gets everything, and maybe too much.


Flaw Ancestral Relic
Flaw Wild Cohort

CC War = WF LB, Know, Know Devo, Darkstalker
R FE Arcane Hunter, Track, WE,
R RS, Collector of Stories, PS

R Endurance, Slipping past [MOVEMENT]
R Solitary Hunting
Raptoran Exoticist-Hit and Run Tactics EWP: Bolas, Net, Kaorti arrows, Elvencraft bow, PBS, Imp FE

S Skirmish (+1d6), trapfinding, Corner Perch [MOVEMENT]
S Battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge,
9 S Fast movement +10 ft., trackless step, (+1d6, +1 AC), FotC

S Alertness, Travel Devo
SoK
SoK FE Evil, Swift Hunter Skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC) FE 2 UNDEAD - +2 Evil

Warblade Weapon Aptitude, Blood in the Water, Moment of Perfect Mind
W Abrupt Jaunt, Combat, Woodland Archer
MMo Crossbow Sniper, Nemesis - Evil

WB Imp Uncanny Dodge, Iron Heart Surge
MMo Invisible stalker, Ranged Weapon Mastery
18 Ronin +1d6, Craven

WB Battle Ardor, Dancing Mongoose
OCh GLORY, open ff / IRS

C*** 2 0 2
R*** 4 4 1
F*** 2 2 0
S*** 1 4 1
Kh* 0 3 0
Wb 3 1 1 Moment of Perfect Mind
W** 0 0 2
Mo 3 3 3
Ro* 2 0 0
OC 2 0 2



*Waddaya think? Anyway to make this work, hopefully with as much mundane as possible* (or consideration of dispel, and antimagic zones). I'm not against magic on the build, i just don't want the schtick to not work every times someone dispels.

Can the idea be saved? Or should it become melee? Lol, in the end I already have a huge amount of work in it. I hope it even works.

Someone tell me it does, or almost does.