Steel Dragon Familiar

[Mordante]

I was looking at the Feat Dragon Familiar. On page 141 of the Draconomicon there is a list of alignment and arcane spell caster level per dragon type. But this list is limited. Is there a list that includes all dragons?

I am especially looking at steel dragons. If there is no official ruling. What what you say on caster level and alignment?

[Khedrac]

I think the list is limited because it is felt that some dragons are too powerful even at wyrmling stage to serve as a familiar.

[Mordante]

I think the list is limited because it is felt that some dragons are too powerful even at wyrmling stage to serve as a familiar.

Not sure of that is the reason. I don't think Gem dragon are more powerful then chromatic dragons. But that more of a feeling then based on any rules. If there a power ranking for dragons published somewhere?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Not sure of that is the reason. I don't think Gem dragon are more powerful then chromatic dragons. But that more of a feeling then based on any rules. If there a power ranking for dragons published somewhere?

Yes‚ it's called CR (that‚ and the LA assignment threads for MM I dragons). I don't really know where you wanted to go with this

[Mordante]

Yes‚ it's called CR (that‚ and the LA assignment threads for MM I dragons). I don't really know where you wanted to go with this

Just wanted to know if it would be possible to have a steel dragon as familiar and what arcane caste level would be needed. I will try to find that thread. Do you have a link to that thread?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Just wanted to know if it would be possible to have a steel dragon as familiar and what arcane caste level would be needed. I will try to find that thread. Do you have a link to that thread?

The LA thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825) will not help you. It's only to play such a dragon, not as a familiar, and doesn't cover the Steel Dragon yet (only those from the Monster Manual I).

After looking it up, the CR rating of the steel dragon is absolutely garbage. The dragons are already notoriously under-CRed, and there is absolutely no way a creature with sorcerer casting, who has Spell Resistance and fricking Polymorph as an SLA has lower CR than a green wyrmling. In fact, I'd say that as a familiar, this is much more valuable than a Gold dragon wyrmling. To give you an idea, Familiar Spell, the feat that allows your familiar to use one spell per day, is an epic feat. And it was nerfed when going into 3.5 (granted, it allowed up to 8th level spells, but having another set of casting per round is always absolutely fabulous). Your steel wyrmling can cast 3 level 1 spells per day and polymorph into anything with less than 4 HD.

At first glance, I would say that this kind of familiar should necessitate at least CL15 or 16, but it could be a bit under- or overpowered (notably, underpowered if it is often targeted by opponents, or overpowered with a good choice of spells and feats).

Edit: oh, and for alignment, absolutely Lawful Neutral. Steel Dragons are some of the dragons that embody this alignment the best, with their numerous rules they apply to themselves when they live as humans, their willingness to keep a hoard made of works of art then distribute it to the world before they die....

[Mordante]

The LA thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825) will not help you. It's only to play such a dragon, not as a familiar, and doesn't cover the Steel Dragon yet (only those from the Monster Manual I).

After looking it up, the CR rating of the steel dragon is absolutely garbage. The dragons are already notoriously under-CRed, and there is absolutely no way a creature with sorcerer casting, who has Spell Resistance and fricking Polymorph as an SLA has lower CR than a green wyrmling. In fact, I'd say that as a familiar, this is much more valuable than a Gold dragon wyrmling. To give you an idea, Familiar Spell, the feat that allows your familiar to use one spell per day, is an epic feat. And it was nerfed when going into 3.5 (granted, it allowed up to 8th level spells, but having another set of casting per round is always absolutely fabulous). Your steel wyrmling can cast 3 level 1 spells per day and polymorph into anything with less than 4 HD.

At first glance, I would say that this kind of familiar should necessitate at least CL15 or 16, but it could be a bit under- or overpowered (notably, underpowered if it is often targeted by opponents, or overpowered with a good choice of spells and feats).

Edit: oh, and for alignment, absolutely Lawful Neutral. Steel Dragons are some of the dragons that embody this alignment the best, with their numerous rules they apply to themselves when they live as humans, their willingness to keep a hoard made of works of art then distribute it to the world before they die....

Thank you I'll look into it.

I have played a class with a familiar before. But so far I have never looked into the mechanics of the familiar. I just treated as a pet. But it seems a familiar is more than that.

No really sure yet. Maybe I'll just ignore these rules. I just want something that looks fun. Not sure if I will use a familiar for anything else.

[smetzger]

Thank you I'll look into it.

I have played a class with a familiar before. But so far I have never looked into the mechanics of the familiar. I just treated as a pet. But it seems a familiar is more than that.

No really sure yet. Maybe I'll just ignore these rules. I just want something that looks fun. Not sure if I will use a familiar for anything else.

If you just looking for more 'flavor'. Talk to your DM. Maybe a steel dragon with no spellcasting abilities would work.

[Segev]

If you just looking for more 'flavor'. Talk to your DM. Maybe a steel dragon with no spellcasting abilities would work.

Perhaps just Improved Familiar for a pseudodragon that has steel scales? You could make its poison sting into a ranged ray attack; a boost in power, but a minor one, and on theme for the steel dragon.

[Psyren]

I think the list is limited because it is felt that some dragons are too powerful even at wyrmling stage to serve as a familiar.


Not sure of that is the reason. I don't think Gem dragon are more powerful then chromatic dragons. But that more of a feeling then based on any rules. If there a power ranking for dragons published somewhere?

Given that different varieties of dragon have different caster level minimums to serve as familiars, I'm inclined to believe that is the reason. There's no other logical reason to say that you need twice as many caster levels to have a gold dragon familiar as a white.

[Fizban]

This isn't hard people, just read the entries.

Steel dragon wyrmling has CR 2, 4HD, and 1d6 breath weapon. Black has CR 3 and 2d4 breath, White has 3 HD. CR is less important, so the higher match makes it caster level 8 based on combat ability.

The only part missing, and the reason to make a big deal about Steel dragons, is that they get alternate form (medium and smaller humanoids and animals) at wyrmling. This is the same as silver and gold, which are 12-14, but they're also much stronger. So put the Steel dragon wyrmling in the middle at 10th, with an asterisk that says *has alternate form earlier than silver/gold.

Edit: It seems I missed that they also get spellcasting immediately. But 1st level spellcasting isn't too special compared to other Improved Familiars. Maybe worth going to 11th on principle?

I have played a class with a familiar before. But so far I have never looked into the mechanics of the familiar. I just treated as a pet. But it seems a familiar is more than that.
It depends on what you make of it. Some people think familiars are a class feature which is worth a trade for some other powerful class feature (when actually, the trade of not having a familiar is supposed to be that you don't have a familiar to get killed), some even so far that a familiar is basically a whole second caster thanks to share spells and the Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability spell. Others basically take it as an excuse to say they have a pet during fluffy scenes, with abilities that keep it from being killed as easily as an actual pet would if a fight suddenly breaks out. Dragon familiars don't bring much to the table that couldn't come from some other sort of monster, aside from the zomgDragons! aspect of officially, mechanically having a dragon pet (all the fluff of course saying that it thinks its better than you and you're supposed to have to spoil it constantly, and ignoring the ethical questions of an infant in dragon terms being tied to and going on dangerous adventures with you).

Personally I find the whole concept of dragon familiars weird and annoying- at least dragon riding has the excuse that the pairing does result in an overall combat power increase, a mutual benefit where working as a team gets them both more treasure. Dragon wyrmling familiars only makes sense in the "parent wants you to protect their baby," line, with a high level spellcaster providing some increase in hit points and a partner, but you could also just tell the caster to take the baby somewhere they're not going to get killed rather than on adventures with them. At least the small intelligent outsiders can claim they're there as part of a business transaction (which you're actually supposed to have to figure out yourself, since the feat/feature just lets you bond, not actually call, the familiar) where you either paid off or traded some sort of favor or intimidated them into serving you for the rest of your life or until released. But really, familiars are supposed to be small animals that become supernatural through the presence of the caster. Transitioning that ability into the servitude of a minor supernatural spirit is one thing, but it has absolutely nothing to do with getting a fully intelligent yet also baby dragon from the same plane as you to be your pet/minion until it gets older.

[Thurbane]

If there is a dragon that isn't listed in the table in Draconomicon, you could approach your DM, see if they are open to expanding the list, and maybe eyeball a dragon of similar CR/HD.

A Steel dragon wymling has a CR of 2 (according to DoF; seems a little low to me) and has HD of 5-6. This is roughly somewhere between a White and a Black or Brass. If I was the DM, I'd eyeball it as requiring arcane spellcaster level 8.

Actually, was done more comprehensively above.

[Mordante]

This isn't hard people, just read the entries.

Steel dragon wyrmling has CR 2, 4HD, and 1d6 breath weapon. Black has CR 3 and 2d4 breath, White has 3 HD. CR is less important, so the higher match makes it caster level 8 based on combat ability.

The only part missing, and the reason to make a big deal about Steel dragons, is that they get alternate form (medium and smaller humanoids and animals) at wyrmling. This is the same as silver and gold, which are 12-14, but they're also much stronger. So put the Steel dragon wyrmling in the middle at 10th, with an asterisk that says *has alternate form earlier than silver/gold.


It depends on what you make of it. Some people think familiars are a class feature which is worth a trade for some other powerful class feature (when actually, the trade of not having a familiar is supposed to be that you don't have a familiar to get killed), some even so far that a familiar is basically a whole second caster thanks to share spells and the Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability spell. Others basically take it as an excuse to say they have a pet during fluffy scenes, with abilities that keep it from being killed as easily as an actual pet would if a fight suddenly breaks out. Dragon familiars don't bring much to the table that couldn't come from some other sort of monster, aside from the zomgDragons! aspect of officially, mechanically having a dragon pet (all the fluff of course saying that it thinks its better than you and you're supposed to have to spoil it constantly, and ignoring the ethical questions of an infant in dragon terms being tied to and going on dangerous adventures with you).

Personally I find the whole concept of dragon familiars weird and annoying- at least dragon riding has the excuse that the pairing does result in an overall combat power increase, a mutual benefit where working as a team gets them both more treasure. Dragon wyrmling familiars only makes sense in the "parent wants you to protect their baby," line, with a high level spellcaster providing some increase in hit points and a partner, but you could also just tell the caster to take the baby somewhere they're not going to get killed rather than on adventures with them. At least the small intelligent outsiders can claim they're there as part of a business transaction (which you're actually supposed to have to figure out yourself, since the feat/feature just lets you bond, not actually call, the familiar) where you either paid off or traded some sort of favor or intimidated them into serving you for the rest of your life or until released. But really, familiars are supposed to be small animals that become supernatural through the presence of the caster. Transitioning that ability into the servitude of a minor supernatural spirit is one thing, but it has absolutely nothing to do with getting a fully intelligent yet also baby dragon from the same plane as you to be your pet/minion until it gets older.

Thank you very much for your great reply.

I am toying with the idea of playing a pile of cheese. But since we don't do much combat and with roleplaying I tend to downplay the power of my character I see no problems.

Dragonwrought (steel dragon) Kobold Loredrake Sorcerer. So I thought a Steel Dragon wyrmling would fit in nicely.

In another group I have a Rat as familiar. I just treat it as a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves buff and nothing else. My character is level 12. (1rogue/11 sorc).

Maybe I should try and find out how familiars work beside giving a small buff.