OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Zarhan

2021-09-16, 09:01 AM

That cold calling with Sending....brings back memories.

Way back when, we had obtained a recurring villain/nemesis for our little adventurer's party. We had 3 clerics and a sorcerer in the party so plenty of sending-casters available. And a bit of downtime between dungeons. What followed was a discussion on whether "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH" counts as a word, followed by attempts to Send to the guy with "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH ..... (repeat until 25 word achieved)".

GM resolved it by allowing the cleric of Loki (we had one of those) to permit casting as planned, as well as for the Sorcerer. The other two, more lawful-aligned clerics got a stern talking-to about abusing divine communications mediums for spamming even hated enemies next time they visited a temple...

danielxcutter

2021-09-16, 09:02 AM

Haley rules-lawyering in-universe is now my favorite thing :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Hey Serini, if the phone ringing is annoying, maybe answer it then? :smallannoyed:

EDIT: Looks like Serini is physically weaker than Haley (understandable as she is probably venerable.) Geekery thread?

I should point out that Serini, as a halfling, has a -4 penalty to Grapple checks compared to a Medium-sized creature.

It is a bit odd that she doesn't have a FoM effect, and I dunno what the rules for Escape Artist are, but this is entirely plausible even if they had the same Str score.

PH7

2021-09-16, 09:05 AM

Pretty sure that detail is meant to place it immediately after V dropped out of Darth V mode, at the end of book 4.

Ah yes, that would make sense. Thanks! :smallsmile:

Wintermoot

2021-09-16, 09:08 AM

Love it!

All the people constantly complaining about how the Giant portrays Charm effects as too much like dominate? This is what you sound like when you try to rules-lawyer your way around charm spells. and they great sky-DM just rolls their eyes.

Ruck

2021-09-16, 09:10 AM

hagnat

2021-09-16, 09:13 AM

that is a well drawn toilet. I can see you focused intensively while drawing it.

Psyren

2021-09-16, 09:13 AM

Absolutely devious. I'm assuming it's a charm effect, rather than a domination one, and that gives her a bit more leeway?

It is indeed a charm, but Haley could presumably resist a domination on the same grounds (Sunny wording the request poorly.)

Love it!

All the people constantly complaining about how the Giant portrays Charm effects as too much like dominate? This is what you sound like when you try to rules-lawyer your way around charm spells. and they great sky-DM just rolls their eyes.

The rules-lawyering worked though :smalltongue: at least for Sunny's turn.

Metastachydium

2021-09-16, 09:16 AM

"Quiet, unidentified creature!" (Haley rocks!)

It is a bit odd that she doesn't have a FoM effect, and I dunno what the rules for Escape Artist are, but this is entirely plausible even if they had the same Str score.

Given her smug overconfidence ("stand still, children while I absolutely annihilate you! I'msoawesome!"), I wouldn't be surprised if she'd believed that she'll never get mixed up in melee, and consequently, investing resources into that would be tantamount to wasting those resources.

that is a well drawn toilet.

It appears not to have a lid, though?

danielxcutter

2021-09-16, 09:20 AM

Given her smug overconfidence ("stand still, children while I absolutely annihilate you! I'msoawesome!"), I wouldn't be surprised if she'd believed that she'll never get mixed up in melee, and consequently, investing resources into that would be tantamount to wasting those resources.

To be fair, it'd have worked if Sunny didn't do an oopsy whoopsie.

Windscion

2021-09-16, 09:20 AM

Given her smug overconfidence ("stand still, children while I absolutely annihilate you! I'msoawesome!"), I wouldn't be surprised if she'd believed that she'll never get mixed up in melee, and consequently, investing resources into that would be tantamount to wasting those resources.

Rephrased: if I am in melee range, I have already lost. So optimise my loadout for ranged combat.

The MunchKING

2021-09-16, 09:21 AM

Well you treat the charmer like your friend. If you wouldn't get off your friend's mom just because they asked, you're undr no obligation to do it for your charmer.

Psyren

2021-09-16, 09:25 AM

It appears not to have a lid, though?

A lot of toilets have no lids. Those tend to be more in public places / office buildings, but one in a home isn't unheard of.

Well you treat the charmer like your friend. If you wouldn't get off your friend's mom just because they asked, you're undr no obligation to do it for your charmer.

Or, as in this case, when you have no way to be sure you're on your friend's mom in the first place :smalltongue:

Cygnia

2021-09-16, 09:26 AM

Slippery Mind in action!

ref

2021-09-16, 09:26 AM

I am really amazed for this detail, that seems easy to be missed...

We see three sendings started, none finished... But how many words in total do we see? ;)

Yxylu

2021-09-16, 09:28 AM

Anyone remember when V contacted Serini for the first time?

The only time it appeared on-camera, I think, was in bonus comic 743a, which showed what V and the animals were doing while Haley was getting drunk and Elan introspective at the Empire of Blood palace.

Turin_19

2021-09-16, 09:29 AM

I think this is one of the best comics in the history of OOTS!

danielxcutter

2021-09-16, 09:33 AM

Rephrased: if I am in melee range, I have already lost. So optimise my loadout for ranged combat.

To be fair, a venerable halfling rogue is not going to be good in melee, especially when the difference between the Order and Serini at this point is more about higher numbers than anything else.

The MunchKING

2021-09-16, 09:33 AM

I am really amazed for this detail, that seems easy to be missed...

We see three sendings started, none finished... But how many words in total do we see? ;)

Wow, that IS impressive.

Metastachydium

2021-09-16, 09:34 AM

A lot of toilets have no lids. Those tend to be more in public places / office buildings, but one in a home isn't unheard of.

A lot of toilets are seriously weird, then. (I knew Serini's a bad person who deserves my contempt!)

Or, as in this case, when you have no way to be sure you're on your friend's mom in the first place :smalltongue:

None of my friends have moms who can turn invisible. I would have done the same!

Duncun

2021-09-16, 09:38 AM

Or, as in this case, when you have no way to be sure you're on your friend's mom in the first place :smalltongue:

Especially since the creature in hand does not feel like they are the same race as your friend...

Ionathus

2021-09-16, 09:41 AM

Funny that as myself and many others have been arguing at great length about exactly what Serini knows about the Order, I don't think any of us remembered that the Order has been literally calling her and telling her about themselves for weeks *facepalm*.

It's been mentioned a few times, yeah. I know I referenced it at least once, though I couldn't tell you which thread.

Rephrased: if I am in melee range, I have already lost. So optimise my loadout for ranged combat.

Agreed: I don't fault her for optimizing for ranged. Even so, I'd think an optimized ranged combatant would want to have at least one trick for escaping surprise melee, like a short-range teleport a la 5e's Misty Step spell or a Ring of Freedom of Movement. Just as a lifeline though: like you said, she's not built for melee.

A lot of toilets have no lids. Those tend to be more in public places / office buildings, but one in a home isn't unheard of.

A toilet with no lid in my home? Why would you inflict such a nightmarish idea on me like this?

danielxcutter

2021-09-16, 09:43 AM

I am really amazed for this detail, that seems easy to be missed...

We see three sendings started, none finished... But how many words in total do we see? ;)

26. :smalltongue:

enq

2021-09-16, 09:44 AM

I am really amazed for this detail, that seems easy to be missed...

We see three sendings started, none finished... But how many words in total do we see? ;)
I've counted four times and always come up with 26. What's the significance?

danielxcutter

2021-09-16, 09:54 AM

I've counted four times and always come up with 26. What's the significance?

They think it's 25 words(the limit for a single Sending), but they seem to have miscounted.

Petrocorus

2021-09-16, 10:03 AM

Serini calling V a 'dunce-waffle'? Priceless.
Actually, can someone explain this one to me.
I have no idea what is this supposed to mean, just that's an insult of some sort.

I am really amazed for this detail, that seems easy to be missed...

We see three sendings started, none finished... But how many words in total do we see? ;)

I count 26 too.

Dion

2021-09-16, 10:05 AM

How does Serini know that detectives wear deerstalker caps?

ref

2021-09-16, 10:07 AM

26... Now I'm sad.

Fyraltari

2021-09-16, 10:09 AM

Actually, con someone explain this one to me.
I have no idea what is this supposed to mean, just that's an insult of some sort.
Dunce: a person of limited intelligence.
Waffle: A belgian dessert resembling a grid-sahped pancake.
She's calling them an idiot with waffle serving as emphasis.

How does Serini know that detectives wear deerstalker caps?
The same way everybody else gets to make 4th-wall breakign comments. Why wouldn't she?

Petrocorus

2021-09-16, 10:15 AM

Dunce: a person of limited intelligence.
Waffle: A belgian dessert resembling a grid-sahped pancake.
She's calling them an idiot with waffle serving as emphasis.

So this just means "idiote de gauffre" or something like this?

I don't get how waffles could be stupid. They are an excellent dessert. :smallsmile:

Fyraltari

2021-09-16, 10:19 AM

So this just means "idiote de gauffre" or something like this?
Yup. Well, I guess "benête" would be a better fit, register-wise.

I don't get how waffles could be stupid. They are an excellent dessert. :smallsmile:
Why do you think she felt the need to specify?

Dion

2021-09-16, 10:19 AM

The same way everybody else gets to make 4th-wall breakign comments. Why wouldn't she?

You’re a Doylist!

Wintermoot

2021-09-16, 10:21 AM

So this just means "idiote de gauffre" or something like this?

I don't get how waffles could be stupid. They are an excellent dessert. :smallsmile:

I see you are from France. In America there is a long standing tradition of absurdist insults where you combine a normal insulting term like "dunce" with something absurdist and unrelated like "waffle".

I don't know why or how it originated. But it lends an air of absurdity to the insult that emphasizes it and makes it stand out from a normal insult.

So if the line had just been "I know who you are, you dunce, you've been cold calling me for weeks" it wouldn't have had the absurdist element that "I know who you are you dunce-waffle, you've been cold calling me for weeks"

Also, as an aside, in America waffles are a breakfast dish more than a dessert, but they can be eaten for either meal. Not sure if its the same in France.

eras10

2021-09-16, 10:22 AM

Obvious thing I'll say: Looks like the fighting part of this encounter is winding down. Can't guess how the talking will go. This was probably always the most likely direction for Serini and the order will go, but Rich did a great job making the battle feel vivid and unexpectedly dire.

Only slightly less obvious: the Good Guys are hurt, partially incapped, and distracted from watching the perimeter. They're presumably going to be vulnerable for quite some time. In a lot of darker dramas, the Good Guy infighting here would be capitalized on by a bad surprise from a lurking villain during the dialogue phase. Even if you know it's coming, it still hurts. There's more out there than Xykon waiting to do some damage, too. We'll see if the Order makes it to a dialogue outcome and an R&R outro panel.

littlebum2002

2021-09-16, 10:24 AM

The devil take this predictable colon!!

Reboot

2021-09-16, 10:25 AM

I was thinking "waffle" as the verb meaning to go on at needless length... (so "dunce-waffle" == "a stupid person who talks too much")

Duncun

2021-09-16, 10:27 AM

I see you are from France. In America there is a long standing tradition of absurdist insults where you combine a normal insulting term like "dunce" with something absurdist and unrelated like "waffle".

I don't know why or how it originated. But it lends an air of absurdity to the insult that emphasizes it and makes it stand out from a normal insult.

So if the line had just been "I know who you are, you dunce, you've been cold calling me for weeks" it wouldn't have had the absurdist element that "I know who you are you dunce-waffle, you've been cold calling me for weeks"

Also, as an aside, in America waffles are a breakfast dish more than a dessert, but they can be eaten for either meal. Not sure if its the same in France.

Also to add to that. If you are called a dunce, you are just a stupid elf. An insult to be sure, but since a waffle has no intelligence, to be a dunce among waffles is even more of an insult. Not only are you un-intelligent(waffle), but a dunce among them.

The MunchKING

2021-09-16, 10:30 AM

I was thinking "waffle" as the verb meaning to go on at needless length... (so "dunce-waffle" == "a stupid person who talks too much")

The version I heard of it as verb meant to go back and forth on issues, changing your mind over and over. "The politician waffled on his support of the bill" or something.

The dictionary (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/waffle) recognizes neither of those interpretations, so I guess we are equally accurate. :D

CountDVB

2021-09-16, 10:32 AM

"Quiet, unidentified creature!" (Haley rocks!)

Given her smug overconfidence ("stand still, children while I absolutely annihilate you! I'msoawesome!"), I wouldn't be surprised if she'd believed that she'll never get mixed up in melee, and consequently, investing resources into that would be tantamount to wasting those resources.

Well, I guess her smug overconfidence gives some credence that she has the same flaw as the rest of the Scribblers then. Wonder how this will play out.

I imagine she’ll try airing her grievances on them, but may not work due to character development and or the fact the team knows stuff she doesn’t.

pendell

2021-09-16, 10:32 AM

Genius on Haley's part.

So .. um, fight's over? Or is this just a pause? Sunny can't attack Haley without hitting Serini also. Are we going to dialog and negotiate now or will Serini resume the fight, now that the order is back on its feet and spread throughout the room so they won't easily fit in a single AMF cone?

For that matter, Sunny looks like ze's taken some damage; I see scratches and arrows sticking out. I'm not sure if this is at all a winnable fight any more from Serini's perspective. She's lost the element of surprise and invisibility, and now the PC mage and fighter are back on their feet. Time for a contingency teleport out and try again, I think.

ETA: I think there's a bit of hypocrisy in that last panel. If she needs to concentrate , why is she reading a magazine while performing the task requiring focus?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Peelee

2021-09-16, 10:41 AM

The version I heard of it as verb meant to go back and forth on issues, changing your mind over and over. "The politician waffled on his support of the bill" or something.

The dictionary (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/waffle) recognizes neither of those interpretations, so I guess we are equally accurate. :D

Dictionaries do not dictate what words mean. They reflect how words are used at the time. This means they are not infallible. One definition of "waffle", as a verb, is indeed to change mind back and forth.

Ralanr

2021-09-16, 10:42 AM

I wonder if they make fiber supplements in this setting. They've done me wonders.

danielxcutter

2021-09-16, 10:44 AM

Doug Lampert

2021-09-16, 10:45 AM

Well you treat the charmer like your friend. If you wouldn't get off your friend's mom just because they asked, you're undr no obligation to do it for your charmer.

Yep, and to be honest, if my friend's mom had been SHOOTING at me and my friends and saying "we've got glue" when my friend objected to a plan that would probably shatter me, I'd probably keep holding mom down till things were clarified a bit better.

Charm makes you my friend, I tend to try to avoid fighting with my friend's friends, but when there's a fight already going because I was ambushed and attacked by surprise then I might well expect my friend to be actively helping me deal with the ambusher rather than telling me to stand down and if the friend is telling me to stand down, I might well ignore them till I've dealt with the life or death threat.

Charm just isn't that good. It gives friendly, which isn't even as good as the "helpful" you can get with diplomacy by talking to someone for 6 seconds by RAW at Haley or Elan's level.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-16, 10:45 AM

Okay, the last panel was a crowning moment of awesome. All heed the elders of the glorious Halfling people. The last four panels were a bucket full of humor and win.

Haley loopholing her way out of a compulsion effect before it is dispelled? Pure gold. Once again, Haley is smart comes in handy.

Bet V hasn't been called an "absolute dunce-waffle" before. V has with some frequency acted like the dumbest smart person in the room.

I think this puts to rest whether or not Serini is good, she is punishing scam callers, any and all actions against to do this are valid. I have deep empathy for Serini regarding the sin of quality reading time being interrupted by unwanted phone calls.

Oh dear gods ... the Order has become the extended warranty sales calls!
"Hello, we are calling about your Gate's extended warranty."
They have officially lived long enough to see themselves become the villain! Cue Elton John to sing The Circle of Life

That cold calling with Sending....brings back memories. I am in a 5e game where we took down a mind flayer lich as a level 11 party. That was a hard fight. (PWK on our blade lock killed him, took a Revivify to get him back up). But did we find the phylactery? No. Well, once the lich got back into business via the phylactery, guess what we are treated to? Daily sending spells about how she's gonna come and kill us, and our little dog too! As there is nothing we can do to stop them, our PCs have come up with some canned responses to insult her back ... which is part of the fun. :smallbiggrin:
Given her smug overconfidence ("stand still, children while I absolutely annihilate you! I'msoawesome!"), I wouldn't be surprised if she'd believed that she'll never get mixed up in melee, and consequently, investing resources into that would be tantamount to wasting those resources. The down side of optimization ... sometimes the min shows up and your max isn't helping.

Or, as in this case, when you have no way to be sure you're on your friend's mom in the first place :smalltongue: Sunny's mom, she's got it going on ... no, wait ... Sunny's mom, she's got a rogue upon {her} ...

I was thinking "waffle" as the verb meaning to go on at needless length... (so "dunce-waffle" == "a stupid person who talks too much") Likewise.
But it might be just the odd juxtaposition, like the affectionate "studmuffin" a lady in some movie referred to her man as. (Why can't I remember the name of that film? Arrgh).

Last point: as a fellow gray hair, I deeply appreciate Serini's rage at V for interrupting quality time reading. :smallfurious: And the need for high fiber diets. I doubt metamucil(TM) is available in OotS verse ...

Thanks Giant. That's why we keep coming back: good jokes. Belkar's closing gag seems to have sarcasm dripping from them. Great strip.

The MunchKING

2021-09-16, 10:47 AM

Dictionaries do not dictate what words mean. They reflect how words are used at the time. This means they are not infallible. One definition of "waffle", as a verb, is indeed to change mind back and forth.

Well of course they aren't infallible, but that means that I can't point to it as an objective thing that is widely used, rather than a bit of local slang that just seems widely used to me because I am exposed to it a lot.

chy03001

2021-09-16, 10:47 AM

Oh god...

Belkar's punchline really got me :-D

declinator

2021-09-16, 10:52 AM

Psyren

2021-09-16, 10:58 AM

26... Now I'm sad.

As you noted, they're all separate sendings anyway. Even if it was 25 I doubt it would have been purposely intended.

I was thinking "waffle" as the verb meaning to go on at needless length... (so "dunce-waffle" == "a stupid person who talks too much")

I was going more for the noun myself - a waffle is full of holes, so she would essentially be calling V an airhead.

V has with some frequency acted like the dumbest smart person in the room.

More specifically in this instance, V has apparently forgotten all the past lengthy introductions they already gave her (or more likely, didn't realize they all connected since she never deigned to answer.) Serini is expressing frustration either at V's forgetfulness, failure to realize they were being deliberately ignored, or both.

I have deep empathy for Serini regarding the sin of quality reading time being interrupted by unwanted phone calls.

I don't. The fate of the planet is a valid reason to call someone repeatedly, and the mere fact that V knew her name is enough reason to conclude that's what the call was about even before the contents of the message itself. Not to mention, judging by her face, all of those calls took place after her nasty run-in with Xykon, so she would have to know the gates were in danger. Up until now I assumed they all had been reaching her while she was recuperating, but for her to be deliberately ignoring the one group trying to stop the guy who assaulted her needs some explaining.

Dion

2021-09-16, 10:59 AM

There is an common American slang that is very close to duncewaffle, but is not appropriate for polite conversation.

It a noun, but it does not refer to tasty American breakfast food, nor is it something you would normally put ice cream in.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-16, 11:06 AM

I was going more for the noun myself - a waffle is full of holes, so she would essentially be calling V an airhead. Nice.

I don't. The fate of the planet is a valid reason to call someone repeatedly, and the mere fact that V knew her name is enough reason to conclude that's what the call was about even before the contents of the message itself. Perhaps when you get to be my age, you'll be more inclined towards empathy on that matter.

Remember one of the things about life and perspective: where ya sit determines what ya see.

As to the fate of the world, Serini has already got that covered as seen from where she's sitting. That point - Serini's confidence in the gate's effectiveness - has been given center stage for a dozen or so strips and, important fact on Serini's side, her defense has worked so far.

My suggestion: walk a mile in her shoes before saddling up that high horse about 'the fate of the world'

Shale

2021-09-16, 11:06 AM

Yep, that is also what I assumed the line was a play on.

Psyren

2021-09-16, 11:08 AM

As to the fate of the world, Serini has already got that covered as seen from where she's sitting. That point - Serini's confidence in the gate's effectiveness - been center stage for about a dozen or so strips and has worked so far.

V had no way of knowing about her state of mind, confident or otherwise. They didn't even know Xykon had already assaulted her even.

My suggestion: walk a mile in her shoes before saddling up that high horse about 'the fate of the world'

Caring about millions of lives is a "high horse?" Seriously? :smallconfused:

Dion

2021-09-16, 11:13 AM

Caring about millions of lives is a "high horse?" Seriously? :smallconfused:

Yes, I am certain that this very important internet comic discussion about pooping is being taken seriously by all parties.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-16, 11:16 AM

V had no way of knowing about her state of mind, confident or otherwise. They didn't even know Xykon had already assaulted her even. Where ya sit (V in this case) determines what ya see. :smallwink:

Yes, I am certain that this very important internet comic discussion about pooping is being taken seriously by all parties. Pooping is serious business. :smalltongue: If you doubt that assertion, try being constipated for a few days. :smalleek:

Petrocorus

2021-09-16, 11:18 AM

I see you are from France. In America there is a long standing tradition of absurdist insults where you combine a normal insulting term like "dunce" with something absurdist and unrelated like "waffle".

As demonstrated by the Merovingian (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1BHuYOb8fM), we tend to mix insults with more insults, plus some God-related swears.

Also, as an aside, in America waffles are a breakfast dish more than a dessert, but they can be eaten for either meal. Not sure if its the same in France.
We do eat them for breakfast, for brunch, for dessert, for afternoon snacks.
They are so easy to associate with so many things.

ETA: I think there's a bit of hypocrisy in that last panel. If she needs to concentrate , why is she reading a magazine while performing the task requiring focus?

"Because you have to read a magazine."

bunsen_h

2021-09-16, 11:19 AM

I don't get Serini's "what the hell happened to your face?" Is there something wrong with Belkar's face, or is that just a weak rejoinder meaning "your face is ugly"?

Cygnia

2021-09-16, 11:20 AM

She's probably anticipating the next question asked about her.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-16, 11:24 AM

ETA: I think there's a bit of hypocrisy in that last panel. If she needs to concentrate , why is she reading a magazine while performing the task requiring focus? Some people enjoy a little quality reading time in that environment because with the door closed, and the location being what it is, they won't be interrupted by spouses, children, etcetera ... and beyond that, if one isn't a mathematician (who usually can work things out with a pencil) and one is used to the evolution taking a while then having something to read while the process slowly moves to completion (too much grunting or straining can aggravate hernias or rupture blood vessels!) helps to make the entire evolution less trying.

Zebulon

2021-09-16, 11:25 AM

New comic is up.
I just now registered so I can't yet make a new thread but if I could it would be that I might be the first one to see what's coming next. V just cast Dispel Magic! Maybe everyone forgot about this in all the excitement but Belkar's polymorphed lizard is out of the bag and running around. Isn't that the same lizard who was originally a T-Rex and if so the dispel magic will turn said lizard back into said T-Rex, right? Did anyone else see this coming?

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-16, 11:27 AM

I just now registered so I can't yet make a new thread but if I could it would be that I might be the first one to see what's coming next. V just cast Dispel Magic! Maybe everyone forgot about this in all the excitement but Belkar's polymorphed lizard is out of the bag and running around. Isn't that the same lizard who was originally a T-Rex and if so the dispel magic will turn said lizard back into said T-Rex, right? Did anyone else see this coming? I think someone alluded to it on page one, lemme check.
EDIT:
Yeah, here in post #13, someone referred to Bloodthirst when I suspect they meant Bloodfeast (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25198276&postcount=13)

Dion

2021-09-16, 11:28 AM

I don't get Serini's "what the hell happened to your face?" Is there something wrong with Belkar's face, or is that just a weak rejoinder meaning "your face is ugly"?

Mt interpretation is she’s angry and and lashing out, and not really thinking all that clearly.

For all her skills and experience, I don’t think Serini scores very high on the “wisdom” stat.

Crusher

2021-09-16, 11:28 AM

I think this puts to rest whether or not Serini is good, she is punishing scam callers, any and all actions against to do this are valid.

Wait, blue is sarcasm, right? How is this in any way sarcasm? If I get another call regarding an extended warranty for my car, it'll... Nice. I got a call regarding an extended warranty while typing that. The punchline I had planned wasn't even remotely as entertaining as that.

danielxcutter

2021-09-16, 11:30 AM

I just now registered so I can't yet make a new thread but if I could it would be that I might be the first one to see what's coming next. V just cast Dispel Magic! Maybe everyone forgot about this in all the excitement but Belkar's polymorphed lizard is out of the bag and running around. Isn't that the same lizard who was originally a T-Rex and if so the dispel magic will turn said lizard back into said T-Rex, right? Did anyone else see this coming?

No, I don't think Dispel Magic works for that anyways. Break Enchantment might work, though.

Wait, blue is sarcasm, right? How is this in any way sarcasm? If I get another call regarding an extended warranty for my car, it'll... Nice. I got a call regarding an extended warranty while typing this. That's totally better than the punchline I had planned.

(*actually laughs out loud*)

gatemansgc

2021-09-16, 11:32 AM

Haley loopholing her way out of a compulsion effect before it is dispelled? Pure gold.

Serini calling V a 'dunce-waffle'? Priceless.

dunce-waffle had me rolling!

also the angry serini on the toilet was gold!

Dion

2021-09-16, 11:32 AM

Our records show that you have not signed up for an extended warranty on your gate. Press one to speak to a representative…

Jaxzan Proditor

2021-09-16, 11:37 AM

Somehow, it was just now in this strip that I realized Belkar is wearing gloves.

Anyway, this was an excellent strip! The humor's great and it's also making me realize that there are some commonalities across halflings. Maybe being short makes them angrier? :smallbiggrin: "Quiet, unidentified creature!" also made me chortle. I'm excited to see if the Order is able to convince Serini that they're not all bad, or if there will be more fighting in the not-to-distant future.

Quizatzhaderac

2021-09-16, 11:43 AM

How does Serini know that detectives wear deerstalker caps?Can you suggest one reason why OOTSverse detectives wouldn't wear deerstalker caps?

It's not like it's a smartphone, people had hats in the old days.

ETA: I think there's a bit of hypocrisy in that last panel. If she needs to concentrate , why is she reading a magazine while performing the task requiring focus?She needs to focus on relaxing, so certain types of distractions can be helpful.

Psyren

2021-09-16, 11:43 AM

Where ya sit (V in this case) determines what ya see. :smallwink:

Exactly, V saw nothing.

Yes, I am certain that this very important internet comic discussion about pooping is being taken seriously by all parties.

Yes, a story being told in comic strip format invalidates any attempts at deriving serious meaning from it.
You may want to look at the quotes in my sig.

No, I don't think Dispel Magic works for that anyways. Break Enchantment might work, though.

It actually does, but given that it was a Vector Legion spell, V may have simply failed the check. Or else Bloodfeast was out of range.

I don't get Serini's "what the hell happened to your face?" Is there something wrong with Belkar's face, or is that just a weak rejoinder meaning "your face is ugly"?

It's a weak rejoinder. He (unintentionally) insulted her first by commenting on her voice, which is likely to still be a sensitive subject for her as she didn't choose to sound that way.

The "your face!" rejoinder is fairly common - "Your FACE is forbidden!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhkK5zQHd-Y)

elros

2021-09-16, 11:51 AM

Psyren

2021-09-16, 11:55 AM

It seems Serini knows a lot about the OOTS, which would explain her hostility to them. After all, V did slaughter the entire Drakentooth family, and Serini did have a crush on Girard.
I do not know too many people who would be kind to a mass murderer and that person’s friends.

Excellent point, this is almost certain to come up now that we're at the talky bit.

Dion

2021-09-16, 11:56 AM

Can you suggest one reason why OOTSverse detectives wouldn't wear deerstalker caps?

So you’re going for the Watsonian interpretation?

Detectives just really do dress like Sherlock Holmes in this world?

Alexandrite

2021-09-16, 11:57 AM

danielxcutter

2021-09-16, 12:00 PM

It seems Serini knows a lot about the OOTS, which would explain her hostility to them. After all, V did slaughter the entire Drakentooth family, and Serini did have a crush on Girard.
I do not know too many people who would be kind to a mass murderer and that person’s friends.

How would she know if that was V who did it? Also, she describes Girard as "paranoid" when talking to the paladins, so I suspect she may have gotten past that point.

Psyren

2021-09-16, 12:04 PM

So you’re going for the Watsonian interpretation?

Detectives just really do dress like Sherlock Holmes in this world?

This is a world built on clichés and genre tropes, e.g. the police chief who says he's getting too old for this dies abruptly, the dungeons have easily-escapable self-destruct buttons etc. Of course there will be detectives who dress like Holmes.

(Granted, we've also seen detectives that don't (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html), but they were sending up a very specific reference.)

Fyraltari

2021-09-16, 12:06 PM

That's what she gets for not returning their calls, even if just to say 'hey, get off my lawn' or something. Pretty rude, you know.

Really though, things would've been way less painful if she actually talked to the people trying to save the world and found out they were trying to save the world.

She probably didn't return their Sending because she didn't want to waste her elemznt of surprise against them/did not trust them to not spill the beans about her.

She kniws what they want. She just thinks they are not competent enough to beat Xykon and would rather destroy the world than let him win. And considering Roy's speech about the world's "soul" in #442, she's not nevessarily wrong.

Riftwolf

2021-09-16, 12:08 PM

So you’re going for the Watsonian interpretation?

Detectives just really do dress like Sherlock Holmes in this world?

Sherlock exists entirely in single cutaway panels, being upstaged by Watson who as a cleric can cast Speak with Dead, Resurrection and Zone of Truth, and so solves the case before Sherlock can even begin deducing. However because of the nature of cutaway panels is unstable and easily edited out by the laws of the universe, we probably saw our best chance of a Sherlock cutaway panel (SCP) occurrence but due to constraints of quantum pacing it failed to visibly manifest.
Also nice to see Charm Person not being used like the Illusion spells in Skyrim and entirely overriding basic sense. Doesn't reflect well on Elan that, when his best friend's mum shot his friend and was shooting at his girlfriend, he sided with his friend's mum.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-16, 12:17 PM

Exactly, V saw nothing. Looks like my point went well over someone's head. The adage has to do with perspective, as noted previously. At this point, zero value added appears to be where this interchange is headed so off to the next topic.

Psyren

2021-09-16, 12:31 PM

Looks like my point went well over someone's head.

Or there wasn't one to begin with.

Agreed, next topic.

Doesn't reflect well on Elan that, when his best friend's mum shot his friend and was shooting at his girlfriend, he sided with his friend's mum.

Well, she's shooting them with knockout poison rather than shooting to kill, and he would reasonably want two friends to stop fighting each other.

Ionathus

2021-09-16, 01:18 PM

Dictionaries do not dictate what words mean. They reflect how words are used at the time. This means they are not infallible. One definition of "waffle", as a verb, is indeed to change mind back and forth.

Take that back, you filthy Descriptivist!

The last four panels were a bucket full of humor and win.
...
Belkar's closing gag seems to have sarcasm dripping from them. Great strip.

In his Patreon Q&As, he's talked about not having trouble being patient for reveals, because he loves the payoff so much. I have a strong suspicion that he has been sitting on the Sending to Serini gag for years :smallbiggrin: Well worth the wait, I say! One of my all-time favorite punchlines.

More specifically in this instance, V has apparently forgotten all the past lengthy introductions they already gave her (or more likely, didn't realize they all connected since she never deigned to answer.)

That's my guess. If I wasn't sure my 1st Sending got through, I would act as if it hadn't and introduce myself every time.

I don't. The fate of the planet is a valid reason to call someone repeatedly, and the mere fact that V knew her name is enough reason to conclude that's what the call was about even before the contents of the message itself. Not to mention, judging by her face, all of those calls took place after her nasty run-in with Xykon, so she would have to know the gates were in danger. Up until now I assumed they all had been reaching her while she was recuperating, but for her to be deliberately ignoring the one group trying to stop the guy who assaulted her needs some explaining.

First off, it's a joke setup, and characters have quipped and been grumpy about lots of world-shattering stuff for the sake of a punchline in this comic.

And second off, Serini is not automatically required to politely respond to everyone who's trying to save the world. Especially if, for instance, she's under the impression that these specific well-meaning fools are an existential threat to the final gate. The IFCC said that Evil isn't all one big happy family, but the same could easily apply to Good/Neutral as well. Just because they both want to protect the world doesn't mean that Serini's a bad person for choosing not to ally with them.

walk a mile in her shoes before saddling up that high horse

A casual affirmation that the Location field under your profile picture is up to date? :smalltongue:

White_Mouse

2021-09-16, 01:24 PM

Someone get this woman weed and a pipe.

Fyraltari

2021-09-16, 01:26 PM

Someone get this woman weed and a pipe.

That's a harmful stereotype! Have you any idea how many halflings die of lung cancer every year?

Doug Lampert

2021-09-16, 01:27 PM

Wait, blue is sarcasm, right? How is this in any way sarcasm? If I get another call regarding an extended warranty for my car, it'll... Nice. I got a call regarding an extended warranty while typing that. The punchline I had planned wasn't even remotely as entertaining as that.

When I got my first Covid Vaccine shot, there was a call right before she gave it to me, I pulled out my phone, and said, "It's from the famous town of Spam Risk Alabama."

She said, "I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said, 'If I see you pulled over on the side of the road, I'm not stopping, I KNOW you were offered the extended warranty on that car.'"

Seward

2021-09-16, 01:39 PM

Absolutely devious. I'm assuming it's a charm effect, rather than a domination one, and that gives her a bit more leeway?
.

Right. Beholder rays use charm person and charm monster, not dominate.

Charm makes you the best friend, it doesn't force actions even as much as suggestion, it more changes your worldview of one particular person. In this case Sunny is now Haley's best friend.

Now I have in real-world tabletop gaming seen this spell have hilarious unintended side effects because really, consider, what it means to be Haley's best friend. She still isn't gonna enjoy being bossed around by you AND is going to be inclined to try to manipulate it back to what she wants to do. Well played Rich.

(my favorite story was the Orc Chieftan who got charmed by our table's bard. Who then freed said bard, and they did traditional orkish buddy activities together, ending in drinking from skulls of slain enemies and planning the feast involving his party members as main course....wouldn't want to waste all that good meat after sacrificing such worthy enemies to Gruumsh of course..)

Quizatzhaderac

2021-09-16, 01:57 PM

Agreed, next topic.Potatoes
Are they overpowered?

..... (SCP) occurrence ....*shudders*

Ionathus

2021-09-16, 02:01 PM

Sherlock cutaway panel (SCP) occurrence

*shudders*

At 6200+ articles and counting, I would honestly be surprised if "Quantum Sherlock" isn't already lurking in the SCP database somewhere.

Psyren

2021-09-16, 02:02 PM

That's my guess. If I wasn't sure my 1st Sending got through, I would act as if it hadn't and introduce myself every time.

Indeed, and the spell itself gives no feedback if the recipient doesn't choose to answer.

Just because they both want to protect the world doesn't mean that Serini's a bad person for choosing not to ally with them.

I never said she was a bad person. Do I think she's wrong, absolutely - and possibly criminally stupid, maybe - but those are very different judgements than whether she is *deep breath* morally justified in letting those world-is-at-stake calls go to voicemail.

Shining Wrath

2021-09-16, 02:08 PM

Damn, Haley can even bluff her way out of a Charm spell. As Roy said, magic is one thing, what Haley does when negotiating is quite another.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-16, 02:21 PM

{a bit was snipped for brevity}
First off, it's a joke setup, and characters have quipped and been grumpy about lots of world-shattering stuff for the sake of a punchline in this comic.

And second off, Serini is not automatically required to politely respond to everyone who's trying to save the world. I tend to agree.

A casual affirmation that the Location field under your profile picture is up to date? :smalltongue: If you've watched enough Westerns, you could be from pretty much anywhere and arrive at that turn of phrase; yes, it is up do date. Wasn't born here but got hear as soon as I could

Ionathus

2021-09-16, 02:22 PM

I never said she was a bad person. Do I think she's wrong, absolutely - and possibly criminally stupid, maybe - but those are very different judgements than whether she is *deep breath* morally justified in letting those world-is-at-stake calls go to voicemail.

I should've said "Wrong," it's more evocative of what I'm trying to talk about anyway. Sorry for the confusion. When I used the term "bad person," I meant it more in a narrative sense: that a character shows very bad judgment, moral failing, or some similar issue that invalidates audience respect for the character.

But "Wrong" is a more evocative term, and it can apply to heroic characters too. When I say that a character is Wrong (capital W) to do something, I'm saying that the decision is going to be criticized, punished, or mourned by the narrative. Elan was Wrong to trust his father. Belkar was Wrong to play like a disruptive murderhobo. V was Wrong to do...well, almost the entire Soul Splice chain of decisions. Under that definition, I don't believe Serini was Wrong to ignore the sendings, for the reasons I gave earlier.

If you've watched enough Westerns, you could be from pretty much anywhere and arrive at that turn of phrase; yes, it is up do date.

I watch so many British TV series and YouTube channels that my speech has become a weird Frankenstein's monster of mostly-American with a few British turns of phrase slipped in. I've been asked "are...are you using a British accent?" before. It's a weird sensation, and not really a pleasant one. ("faking a British accent" is not ever really a good look)

Werbaer

2021-09-16, 02:44 PM

How does Serini know that detectives wear deerstalker caps?
She bought the books.
(seen in the recap section of book #4)

Psyren

2021-09-16, 02:44 PM

Under that definition, I don't believe Serini was Wrong to ignore the sendings, for the reasons I gave earlier.

Whereas I do think she was capital-W Wrong. She's not totally unjustified in that, plenty of good guys and even paladins have been callous or uncaring about collateral damage in her world. But I'm judging her from an overall narrative sense, and with that lens, any character who finds themselves poisoning O-Chul and threatening him with amnesia juice is not someone I'm going to be rooting for or identifying with much.

Yes, finding out that heroes like Durkon/Roy/O-Chul are actually on her side as far as which lives they want to save would have meant giving up her advantage of surprise, hence me thinking her actions are justified in the narrative. But I don't expect the story to show she had it all right, no.

Pablo360

2021-09-16, 02:48 PM

When I say that a character is Wrong (capital W) to do something, I'm saying that the decision is going to be criticized, punished, or mourned by the narrative[...] Under that definition, I don't believe Serini was Wrong to ignore the sendings, for the reasons I gave earlier.

I don't know about that. If by wrong you had meant justified, I'd have agreed, based on what she knows, but I also think that there's a gulf between justified and Right (or Not Wrong, if you prefer). Serini attacking the paladins and the Order, understandable as it may be, will most likely end up being framed as not quite the course of action which, had it succeeded, would have resulted in the ideal scenario, if nothing else for the simple reason that narrative demands Xykon be thwarted - and Serini's plan stands in the way of that.

thorr-kan

2021-09-16, 02:49 PM

I watch so many British TV series and YouTube channels that my speech has become a weird Frankenstein's monster of mostly-American with a few British turns of phrase slipped in. I've been asked "are...are you using a British accent?" before. It's a weird sensation, and not really a pleasant one. ("faking a British accent" is not ever really a good look)
Nothing wrong with poaching their vocabulary, though. See the James Nicholls quote on the purity of English. NSFW.

As an impressionable college freshman who hung out with a group of Australian exchange students his first semester, I find absolutely nothing wrong with commonly heard vocabulary making it's way into your lexicon.

Mate. :smallcool:

I reflect a lot of archaic language my parents and grandparents used to great effect. It amuses my kids, confuses their parents, and generally stretches their English beyond YouTube sound bites. It's good for them.

hamishspence

2021-09-16, 03:11 PM

Nothing wrong with poaching their vocabulary, though. See the James Nicholls quote on the purity of English. NSFW.

Or alternatively, Terry Pratchett's:

"English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammar."

Ionathus

2021-09-16, 03:19 PM

Whereas I do think she was capital-W Wrong. She's not totally unjustified in that, plenty of good guys and even paladins have been callous or uncaring about collateral damage in her world. But I'm judging her from an overall narrative sense, and with that lens, any character who finds themselves poisoning O-Chul and threatening him with amnesia juice is not someone I'm going to be rooting for or identifying with much.

Yes, finding out that heroes like Durkon/Roy/O-Chul are actually on her side as far as which lives they want to save would have meant giving up her advantage of surprise, hence me thinking her actions are justified in the narrative. But I don't expect the story to show she had it all right, no.

I don't know about that. If by wrong you had meant justified, I'd have agreed, based on what she knows, but I also think that there's a gulf between justified and Right (or Not Wrong, if you prefer). Serini attacking the paladins and the Order, understandable as it may be, will most likely end up being framed as not quite the course of action which, had it succeeded, would have resulted in the ideal scenario, if nothing else for the simple reason that narrative demands Xykon be thwarted - and Serini's plan stands in the way of that.

See, I read both of your arguments as showing that Serini is simply wrong, with a lowercase w. Which I can totally get behind.

Serini is factually incorrect, and her plan to neutralize the Order would be catastrophic if it happened. But that's not because she's fundamentally Wrong on a character level: she's just got incomplete intel on the situation. She's making logical enough choices given the information she has. I don't think the narrative is going to say her plan was the RIGHT choice, but I also don't think the narrative is going to call her out all that much for her choices.

Psyren

2021-09-16, 03:24 PM

See, I read both of your arguments as showing that Serini is simply wrong, with a lowercase w. Which I can totally get behind.

Serini is factually incorrect, and her plan to neutralize the Order would be catastrophic if it happened. But that's not because she's fundamentally Wrong on a character level: she's just got incomplete intel on the situation. She's making logical enough choices given the information she has. I don't think the narrative is going to say her plan was the RIGHT choice, but I also don't think the narrative is going to call her out all that much for her choices.

I mean, I don't expect her actions to result in a bad ending to the story if that's what you mean, nor even her death. But a You Suck Speech from the Order would be well-deserved, and that would be fine as far as narrative comeuppance for me.

Lord Torath

2021-09-16, 03:32 PM

The version I heard of it as verb meant to go back and forth on issues, changing your mind over and over. "The politician waffled on his support of the bill" or something.

The dictionary (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/waffle) recognizes neither of those interpretations, so I guess we are equally accurate. :DActually, it does if you scroll farther down the page. Definition 3 is probably the one Serini meant, and Definition 2 is the equivocating one.

I did not see Belkar's final line as at all sarcastic. Belkar was the one who felt like he'd been to see an efreet proctologist (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html) after all...

Thanks, Rich!

Nightcanon

2021-09-16, 03:34 PM

Reads first line: Dagnabit, an apparent resolution in the Order's favour foiled again by a mind-affecting magic and a failed save :smallmad:
Read second line: Go Haley, with timely and effective support from Elan! :smallbiggrin:

Does this mean Serini is going to park her aggression and engage in some dialogue with the Order? Sonny doesn't seem the type to carry on fighting if (a) his former opponents are trying to talk and (b) they have his Mom pinned down and under threat.

Ionathus

2021-09-16, 03:43 PM

I mean, I don't expect her actions to result in a bad ending to the story if that's what you mean, nor even her death. But a You Suck Speech from the Order would be well-deserved, and that would be fine as far as narrative comeuppance for me.

Meanwhile I think she's going to be handled more like Hilgya, who was allowed to Flame Strike Durkon without much of any narrative criticism. She took a few pointed comments from both Sigdi and Minrah, sure, but despite being more Wrong than Serini has been so far, she didn't really take a verbal or moral beating from anyone and was allowed to exit the story with her worldview intact.

Doug Lampert

2021-09-16, 03:58 PM

Or alternatively, Terry Pratchett's:

"English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammar."

That's a James Nichole quote. Pratchett may have used it, but it's James Nichole.

The MunchKING

2021-09-16, 04:03 PM

She bought the books.
(seen in the recap section of book #4)

Which is Ironic because in the Sherlock Holmes books, he explicitly DIDN'T wear a Deerstalker. that was a movie invention.

Actually, it does if you scroll farther down the page. Definition 3 is probably the one Serini meant, and Definition 2 is the equivocating one.

Dang it. WHen they went to the vocab quiz I thought they were done. Guess I failed the SPot check on that one. Or maybe all those ranks in Knowledge (What the hell I'm talking about) were inadequate.

CountDVB

2021-09-16, 04:12 PM

That's what she gets for not returning their calls, even if just to say 'hey, get off my lawn' or something. Pretty rude, you know.

Really though, things would've been way less painful if she actually talked to the people trying to save the world and found out they were trying to save the world. Girard's (I'm assuming she got it from Girard anyway) mindset really screwed things up.

Admittingly, that sort of distrustful mentality seems to be relatively prevalent in a lot of Chaotic alignment characters (Elan being the exception because... he’s Elan). This distrust toward authority and thinking you have to do it yourself. It’s in the same way how there’s been a couple jabs at the expense at Lawful-aligned folk.

Osuniev

2021-09-16, 04:23 PM

I am really amazed for this detail, that seems easy to be missed...

We see three sendings started, none finished... But how many words in total do we see? ;)

Idon't get it. There is 26 words here, but any way that is 3 different sendings, as you said ?

Riftwolf

2021-09-16, 04:25 PM

At 6200+ articles and counting, I would honestly be surprised if "Quantum Sherlock" isn't already lurking in the SCP database somewhere.

Is this a thing? I didn't know SCP was a thing! I'm unintentionally sounding like I know stuff!

Just to check, are we talking about the Linux command or the wiki-story?

Quizatzhaderac

2021-09-16, 04:26 PM

Which is Ironic because in the Sherlock Holmes books, he explicitly DIDN'T wear a Deerstalker. that was a movie invention. The books are not the original publication. The original publication is a magazine (Strand Magazine, for the relevant story), which happened to feature an illustration of Homes in a deerstalker hat.

The artist was interpreting the phrase "ear-flapped travelling cap", for which deerstalker was the most obvious interpretation.

Ionathus

2021-09-16, 04:37 PM

Is this a thing? I didn't know SCP was a thing! I'm unintentionally sounding like I know stuff!

Just to check, are we talking about the Linux command or the wiki-story?

Haha, the wiki-story! If cosmic/existential sci-fi horror is your thing, it's a wild ride. The canon diverges into lots of different storylines, some standalone and some very lore-complex. It's very similar to D&D or comic book continuities in that way. Start with SCP-173 and follow that thread wherever it takes you.

Liquor Box

2021-09-16, 04:38 PM

Belkar is killing it here.
That is his skill

EDIT: Looks like Serini is physically weaker than Haley (understandable as she is probably venerable.) Geekery thread?
She probably is stronger, because Serini will have penalties for strength due to age and also due to being a halfling. But I don't think this scene demonstrates that - it would be their respective grappling checks (which are modified by strength) in play here, and Serini will have grapple modifiers because she is just wee.

Waffle: A belgian dessert resembling a grid-sahped pancake.
She's calling them an idiot with waffle serving as emphasis.

Waffle can also be slang for talking at length while conveying little useful information. Given that V is known for waffling a bit, I wonder if that is the meaning here.

Whereas I do think she was capital-W Wrong. She's not totally unjustified in that, plenty of good guys and even paladins have been callous or uncaring about collateral damage in her world. But I'm judging her from an overall narrative sense, and with that lens, any character who finds themselves poisoning O-Chul and threatening him with amnesia juice is not someone I'm going to be rooting for or identifying with much.

Agree with this

Fyraltari

2021-09-16, 04:50 PM

Is this a thing? I didn't know SCP was a thing! I'm unintentionally sounding like I know stuff!

Yes, The SCP Foundation (https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/main) is definitely a thing (https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/about-the-scp-foundation). It's a collective writing endeavour in wiki format, it is supposed to be the database of an organisation that's basically the M.I.B. but serious about it. They find "anomalies", that is supernatural object/beings/phenomena and Secure, Contain and Protect (mankind from) them.

The idea is that people find weir and/or creepy photographs, imagine weird fantastical stories based around that and write a page. A horror bent to it is appreciated, but not obligatory.

For example: The first one (https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-173), the plague doctor (https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-049), The office of Dr. [REDACTED] (https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-086), the Old Man (https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-106) or the coffee machine (https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-294).

And because I love the sheer idea of it, The Day Earth Stopped being flat. (https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-281-fr)

Wizard_Lizard

2021-09-16, 04:53 PM

Oooo new comic! Really liked seeing Elan use Neutralise poison!! Also Hayley being smart!!

bunsen_h

2021-09-16, 05:17 PM

Nothing wrong with poaching their vocabulary, though. See the James Nicholls quote on the purity of English. NSFW.

That's a James Nichole quote. Pratchett may have used it, but it's James Nichole.

For the record: James Nicoll (https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/).

She probably is stronger, because Serini will have penalties for strength due to age and also due to being a halfling.

What would the troll factor do to that?

NobleCuriosity

2021-09-16, 05:18 PM

Just wanted to say this one got an actual laugh out loud from me.

Still, my sympathy for Serini here is a bit tampered by the fact that the timing of the calls would likely not be so awkward if she’d ever answered.

Psyren

2021-09-16, 05:24 PM

Meanwhile I think she's going to be handled more like Hilgya, who was allowed to Flame Strike Durkon without much of any narrative criticism. She took a few pointed comments from both Sigdi and Minrah, sure, but despite being more Wrong than Serini has been so far, she didn't really take a verbal or moral beating from anyone and was allowed to exit the story with her worldview intact.

Smacking down Durkon in a fit of pique, while heinous, was a single act. Not an entire campaign of obstructing not only the Order but also the surviving members of the Sapphire Guard based purely on an assumption/lack of faith in the heroes.

Pablo360

2021-09-16, 05:29 PM

I don't think the narrative is going to say her plan was the RIGHT choice, but I also don't think the narrative is going to call her out all that much for her choices.

There is indeed a difference between those, but I don't think that difference will matter here. Though I suppose pretty soon we'll find out one way or the other; I'm not sure how much sense it makes to speculate about a narrative direction that may well be clarified in the very next update.

Ionathus

2021-09-16, 05:48 PM

Smacking down Durkon in a fit of pique, while heinous, was a single act. Not an entire campaign of obstructing not only the Order but also the surviving members of the Sapphire Guard based purely on an assumption/lack of faith in the heroes.

Yeah, I'm gonna say that murdering someone over a tone-deaf marriage proposal is a lot more objectionable than ignoring somebody's magical phone calls and then nonlethally removing them from your territory.

hungrycrow

2021-09-16, 05:54 PM

Yeah, I'm gonna say that murdering someone for a tone-deaf marriage proposal is a lot more objectionable than ignoring somebody's magical phone calls and nonlethally removing them from your territory.

She also tried to kidnap several people by poisoning them. Not nearly as bad as murdering someone for petty reasons, but still bad.

Liquor Box

2021-09-16, 05:57 PM

What would the troll factor do to that?

Well, she doesn't look any bigger, so it wouldn't seem to have changed her size penalty.

It could possibly have changed her stats and given her a strength bonus, but my guess is not. We've seen no indication of it.

RatedArgh

2021-09-16, 05:57 PM

There's still a mimic in play, yes? Idk how much of a threat that would be, but could be one last 'Surprise!'

As to annoying people with sendings, a long time ago I was in a campaign where the big baddy communicated with his generals via Quaal's Feather Tokens. My CN Sorcerer acquired a bunch of them and periodically sent them with Exploding Runes. He didn't actually expect to kill any of them, just disrupt their main lines of communication.

Liquor Box

2021-09-16, 05:59 PM

There is indeed a difference between those, but I don't think that difference will matter here. Though I suppose pretty soon we'll find out one way or the other; I'm not sure how much sense it makes to speculate about a narrative direction that may well be clarified in the very next update.

Isn't there a "predict the next comic" thread dedicated to doing just that?

Yeah, I'm gonna say that murdering someone over a tone-deaf marriage proposal is a lot more objectionable than ignoring somebody's magical phone calls and then nonlethally removing them from your territory.

I tend to agree that the killing of Durkon (despite the subsequent ressurection) was at least as bad as drugging and kidnapping the paladins.

But I think Hilgya did get a bit of a smack from Durkon's mother. That's all I think people are expecting for Serini here

JonahFalcon

2021-09-16, 06:02 PM

Noticed when V dispelled magic:

Orange lightning = spell cast by Sunny
Bright blue lightning = spell cast by Minrah
Dark blue lightning = spell cast by Serini

Ionathus

2021-09-16, 06:27 PM

She also tried to kidnap several people by poisoning them. Not nearly as bad as murdering someone for petty reasons, but still bad.

Yes: I was including that under the broader heading of "removing them nonlethally from her territory," but should've specified.

I tend to agree that the killing of Durkon (despite the subsequent ressurection) was at least as bad as drugging and kidnapping the paladins.

But I think Hilgya did get a bit of a smack from Durkon's mother. That's all I think people are expecting for Serini here

Yeah, I definitely expect some quips, sass, back-and-forth, even some posturing like Serini did with Hilgya.

elecampane

2021-09-16, 06:50 PM

That's a great comic!

However, being a rules nitpicker, I feel I should point out that there's a small mistake here. V obviously used an "Area Dispel" of the Dispel Magic spell, as several creatures were affected by a single casting.
However, the spell description for that option says:

"For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected."

So V could've only dispel one spell on each creature, although art clearly shows Belkar lost both the Fear spell-like effect from Sunny and Calm emotions effect from Minrah.

Also the status of previously applied spells, such as Overland flight on V or Telepathic bond on everybody remains a mystery, I think. No indication in art that the spells were dispelled, no evidence of the spells staying.

(Yes, of course Dispell Magic could work differently in this universe, I know)

RatedArgh

2021-09-16, 07:20 PM

Also the status of previously applied spells, such as Overland flight on V or Telepathic bond on everybody remains a mystery, I think. No indication in art that the spells were dispelled, no evidence of the spells staying.

Can't you intentionally fail checks? So fail on the items you don't want to dispel? Or am I remembering that wrong?

Riftwolf

2021-09-16, 07:37 PM

Smacking down Durkon in a fit of pique, while heinous, was a single act. Not an entire campaign of obstructing not only the Order but also the surviving members of the Sapphire Guard based purely on an assumption/lack of faith in the heroes.

She's already laid out why she doesn't trust Lien and O-Chul; O-Chul was ready to destroy the sapphire gate to prevent it from falling into Xykon's hands, and while the paladins say they won't do it again, it sounds pretty hollow when the paladins are teaming up with another group of knuckleheads who destroyed Girard's Gate to stop it from falling into Xykon's hands. Those knuckleheads keep cold-sending her? At first she doesn't know them from Adam, so doesn't know if it's a trick by Xykon. Then she gets Girard's message about the antipaladin trap being tripped. More cold-sending. Then Girard's gate blows up. More cold-sending.
Serini doesn't know the Order of the Stick are heroes. She just knows them as furbling dunderheads who are happy to smash the world-saving devices her friends fought and died to create, because what matters to these idiots is a scorched earth approach to a villain who, while scarily powerful, won't make it a decade after setting himself up as Epic Campaign Bait.

Can't you intentionally fail checks? So fail on the items you don't want to dispel? Or am I remembering that wrong?

Unfortunately you can't intentionally fail dispel checks. I think there's some feat that allows you to skip a spell during the dispel checking, or maybe a class feature, but it's not as standard. I feel like that's by design though. Making the choice about getting rid of debuffs is harder when dispel can clear your buffs instead.

danielxcutter

2021-09-16, 08:12 PM

I find it interesting that aside from Minrah, the members of the Order still awake aren’t the ones who know about the Plan and the goblin predicament.

Borris

2021-09-16, 08:23 PM

My suggestion: walk a mile in her shoes before saddling up that high horse about 'the fate of the world'

But halflings don't even have shoes.

Sunface

2021-09-16, 08:51 PM

Sorry if anyone has discussed it, but what is the white thing that got dispelled? Was it a scrying sensor?

danielxcutter

2021-09-16, 08:55 PM

Sorry if anyone has discussed it, but what is the white thing that got dispelled? Was it a scrying sensor?

If you mean the white effect on Belkar, it was the Calm Emotions that Minrah cast on him two strips ago to counteract the Fear effect Sunny zapped him with.

If you mean the white floating orb, it's V's light spell.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-16, 09:02 PM

But halflings don't even have shoes. OK, having played a lot of hobbits and halflings over the years, I ought to have phrased that differently. Two servings of Mrs. Starmast's home made guacamole for you. (By the way, her home made guac is awesome!).

The MunchKING

2021-09-16, 09:24 PM

But halflings don't even have shoes.

The ones that want magic boosts do! :smalltongue:

SpykeMH

2021-09-16, 10:20 PM

I like how all the dispells had different colors to show each effect being dispelled...everyone who was hit with one of Sunny's eyes has orange, Belkar who had Minrah's calm emotions has white as well, and Serini's invisibility is blue.

Wraithfighter

2021-09-16, 11:40 PM

TheNecrocomicon

2021-09-17, 12:11 AM

Our records show that you have not signed up for an extended warranty on your gate. Press one to speak to a representative…

"Pour le service en français, veuillez appuyer le 'deux'."

Psyren

2021-09-17, 12:24 AM

Yeah, I'm gonna say that murdering someone over a tone-deaf marriage proposal is a lot more objectionable than ignoring somebody's magical phone calls and then nonlethally removing them from your territory.

I never said I didn't object. But she got her You Suck speech too, and for something that had much less overall effect on the narrative than anything Serini is currently doing. Deflect to Hilgya all you want, she's not relevant here.

Ruck

2021-09-17, 02:42 AM

I did not see Belkar's final line as at all sarcastic. Belkar was the one who felt like he'd been to see an efreet proctologist (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html) after all...

Neither did I. Didn't even think of the cited example, but sophisticated halfling palates call for fine food, and at some point, you eat enough fine food and/or get old enough, you're going to have to learn how to deal with it on the other end.

elros

2021-09-17, 02:46 AM

I'm wondering if Rich's alternate title for this final book is "Poor Communication Kills (Planets)", because... woof.

Serini... girl, look, you're well aware of the dangers of Xykon, obviously. You're the defender of the final object preventing the destruction of the world. You're being contacted by ostensible do-gooders who, in their own noble efforts at thwarting the villain, have blundered into the destruction of 3 of those pillars in the past. Their attempts at contacting you are not stopping, and describe them getting closer to you. They clearly know various things about where its going, and their repeated messages are driving you up the wall...

...so why don't you tell them "**** off, everything's fine, you're just giving me a headache" or something? It's a wizard contacting you, you know what their Sense Motive checks are like, you could easily craft a lie that they could believe!

Then again, it is rather appropriate that, given the three gates that have fallen in this comic, all three at least partly fell because of Scribbles' insistence that they knew what was best (Dorukan creating a literal self-destruct button that could be easily activated, Soon holding firm to the decree that the gates must be protected at all costs, the ensuing genocidal war by the Paladins whose honor he so cherished creating an enemy that would sack his city, and Girard's secrecy and deceptions preventing reinforcements to protect the gate from knowing where to go), of course one of the final Gate's greatest flaws would end up being its own self-sworn guardian.

(oh, and before people comment about the above: Failure has many fathers. I do not place Dorukan, Soon or Girard as anywhere close to being the primary cause of the gates falling. But they sure did contribute to it)
There has been a lot of “what does Serini actually know, versus what we the readers know” when people judge Serini. I am going to base my decision on the following:
The OOTS destroyed Durokon’s gate for lutz, which directly lead to Xykon hunting Serini down, nearly killing her until she was saved by turning her into a half-troll, which also disfigured her and ended her adventuring career. Also, Durokon’s defense was good enough to stop Xykon from taking over the gate, because Team Evil was not able to get past its protective ward despite being there for a long time.
The OOTS then joined forces with the paladins, and another gate was destroyed, even though Soon’s defense was good enough to stop Xykon. Actually, Soon was about to destroy Xykon, which would have ended Team Evil for good and saved the World.
V murders the entire Drakentooth family (and countless others), and then OOTS goes past their defenses and destroys the gate. If not for V, the gate would have had full defenses, and Girard’s family may have been able to stop Team Evil (but we will never know for sure).
Now the OOTS is coming to the final gate and asking to work with Serini. Given how well that worked before, she is reluctant to work with them.
The facts show that that the Order of the Scribble had defenses that were powerful enough to prevent Team Evil from using the ritual on two gates (Durokon’s & Soon’s), and possibly a third (Girard’s), so it is reasonable for Serini to continue to trust her defenses, which have been working for weeks.

It is possible that after Serini was nearly killed and received the warning that Girard’s message in the desert was triggered, and after receiving multiple V’s sendings, that she used magical and other means to learn all of the above facts. Given all that, I don’t think Serini is wrong at all, big or little W, for wanting nothing to do with the OOTS or the paladins.
And I think it is kind for Serini to merely use an amnesia potion to stop people who destroyed three gates, prevented the destruction of Xykon, murdered Girard’s entire family, and failed to stop a lich that she has already keeping at bay. Even a neutral character would be justified to use lethal force to stop a group whose incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

danielxcutter

2021-09-17, 03:05 AM

I do presume everyone agrees on the fact that her premise is entirely overturned by the Plan, right?

Ruck

2021-09-17, 03:15 AM

The OOTS destroyed Durokon’s gate for lutz, which directly lead to Xykon hunting Serini down, nearly killing her until she was saved by turning her into a half-troll, which also disfigured her and ended her adventuring career.

This is the only part I'm not sure of - I was under the impression that Xykon had to find Serini's diary to locate the other four Gates, which would place that before Dorukan's Gate. (And I remember for sure that after the events of Dorukan's dungeon, Xykon had to retake his old tower where he already had the diary.)

I do presume everyone agrees on the fact that her premise is entirely overturned by the Plan, right?

I would say so, particularly the aspect where the gods are already on the brink of destroying the world, and likely would do it to avoid the Dark One getting any kind of control over the Snarl. Plus, there's no way that she knows that Durkon's mission is to try to negotiate with Redcloak to bring about a more permanent solution to the rifts.

hungrycrow

2021-09-17, 03:23 AM

There has been a lot of “what does Serini actually know, versus what we the readers know” when people judge Serini. I am going to base my decision on the following:
The OOTS destroyed Durokon’s gate for lutz, which directly lead to Xykon hunting Serini down, nearly killing her until she was saved by turning her into a half-troll, which also disfigured her and ended her adventuring career.ping at bay.

This part is wrong. Xykon's body was destroyed by Dorukan's gate, and he refers to the diary while his body regrew. He must have attacked Serini before he took over Dorukan's dungeon. Stealing her diary after the attack is probably how he learned the locations of the other gates in the first place.

Edit:ninja'd

RickDaily12

2021-09-17, 03:29 AM

I don't get Serini's "what the hell happened to your face?" Is there something wrong with Belkar's face, or is that just a weak rejoinder meaning "your face is ugly"?

Belkar's question was "You're a Halfing?? What the hell happened to your voice?"

She's retorting "I don't know, what the hell happened to your face?" in response because it should be immediately apparent upon looking at her face that she is no longer a normal halfing and that this was the question he should have asked instead.

danielxcutter

2021-09-17, 03:48 AM

Belkar's question was "You're a Halfing?? What the hell happened to your voice?"

She's retorting "I don't know, what the hell happened to your face?" in response because it should be immediately apparent upon looking at her face that she is no longer a normal halfing and that this was the question he should have asked instead.

I just read that as a "no u" type of retort, except Belkar either didn't get it at all or was genuinely so surprised he didn't think to.

Wraithfighter

2021-09-17, 03:56 AM

The facts show that that the Order of the Scribble had defenses that were powerful enough to prevent Team Evil from using the ritual on two gates (Durokon’s & Soon’s), and possibly a third (Girard’s), so it is reasonable for Serini to continue to trust her defenses, which have been working for weeks.

Exactly! If she has full and absolute confidence in her defenses, she shouldn't be ignoring the OOTS' messages, she should respond to one, use it to lead them into a trap, and then KO and Amnesia them! Rather than risk them blundering around outside, possibly letting the big bad villains in on the secret (you know, by giving Team Evil reason to go back into an already 'cleared' dungeon), anyway. That this has gone so well for her is frankly very fortunate.

And because Serini is refusing to talk to the OOTS, she's out of the loop on some key info about what the gods are up to right now, or Redcloak's plan. I get why she thinks she has all the answers, but the facts show that she's wrong to be so confident about that, Team Evil capturing the final gate is no different from it being destroyed to the gods, both are equally good justifications to nuke and pave. We don't know how much she knows about our heroes, sure, but there's something causing her actions beyond simple "I know everything and I got this" arrogance, because if she was acting this way just on those counts... she would be doing different things. There's something more to her and, well, her damage than just a nasty skin condition.

EDIT:

I just read that as a "no u" type of retort, except Belkar either didn't get it at all or was genuinely so surprised he didn't think to.

I read it more as Belkar not caring. Coming at him with an insult like that is like a Lv. 20 Paladin getting attacked by a non-classed kobold with a sharp stick.

elros

2021-09-17, 05:32 AM

This part is wrong. Xykon's body was destroyed by Dorukan's gate, and he refers to the diary while his body regrew. He must have attacked Serini before he took over Dorukan's dungeon. Stealing her diary after the attack is probably how he learned the locations of the other gates in the first place.

Edit:ninja'd
My bad, you are right about that.

Regarding the gods destroying the World: if Darkon had not been turned into a vampire, Hel would not have had a cleric at the Godsmoot, and the vote would have been in favor of saving the World. Serini has no way to know that, but as a reader, it makes me wonder if the World would have been better off if the OOTS had never formed in the first place.
In my mind, it reminds me of Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Arc: his adventure makes a great story, but he actually made no difference in the outcome.

Wraithfighter

2021-09-17, 06:02 AM

Regarding the gods destroying the World: if Darkon had not been turned into a vampire, Hel would not have had a cleric at the Godsmoot, and the vote would have been in favor of saving the World. Serini has no way to know that, but as a reader, it makes me wonder if the World would have been better off if the OOTS had never formed in the first place.

Except that one of the reasons why some of the gods have voted no is because, well, there's these heroes here actively trying to stop Xykon and Redcloak. If they're acting completely and utterly unopposed, a lot of those Good and Neutral gods would go "WELP, uh, sucks to be them, but time to cash out and hibernate for a while because it's that or risk the Dark One using the Snarl to slaughter us all!"

Like, Loki outright states that the very slim chance that the Snarl could be defeated is the only thing keeping him from agreeing to the "Nuke and Pave" option (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1177.html). Yes, some of that has to do with Loki wanting to support his daughter, but... he also wants Hel to survive to reach the next world, and the odds of that get lower and lower the longer this world spins on with her imbalanced diet continuing. And even if he cared not one whit about Hel, well, Selfish Loki has no reason to take that risk if Xykon and Redcloak have no serious opposition.

So, yeah, the OOTS have already saved the world in that regard, just via the extremely slim but narrow chance that some PC's going to be able to stop Team Evil.

b0thari

2021-09-17, 07:10 AM

Belkar: Best. Punchline. Ever.

Peelee

2021-09-17, 07:11 AM

Dang it. WHen they went to the vocab quiz I thought they were done. Guess I failed the SPot check on that one. Or maybe all those ranks in Knowledge (What the hell I'm talking about) were inadequate.

Knowledge (what the he I'm talking about) can be off Charisma instead of Intelligence and has amazing synergy with Bluff. I have made an incredibly fun build capitalizing on those two facts.

RickDaily12

2021-09-17, 07:44 AM

I just read that as a "no u" type of retort, except Belkar either didn't get it at all or was genuinely so surprised he didn't think to.

I read it more as Belkar not caring. Coming at him with an insult like that is like a Lv. 20 Paladin getting attacked by a non-classed kobold with a sharp stick.
It's not a "no u" type of retort, it's the "you're asking the wrong question" type of retort. And Belkar acknowledges it immediately by saying "yeah, that was my next question."

Like really- Serini isn't just being a buffoonish crone; she sounds legitimately irritated when people miss blatantly apparent facts to her whenever things are being discussed.

Such as "Of course I know who you are, you've been cold-calling me for weeks", or "[of course I'm the halfling who runs this place], want a tweed cap?" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1244.html), or "yes, we were friends" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1227.html), or "I didn't brew this for just the two of you" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html) and so on and so forth.

Whether she was always this way or whether it grew on her with old age is probably the more interesting question, but at the very least think it's clear that part of the reason she's apprehensive about this situation right this second is that she thinks all of the PCs who just showed up at her door are largely a group of idiots who lack both the power and wit to do anything about Xykon, and she's annoyed that they haven't gotten the hint yet.

alceryes

2021-09-17, 08:04 AM

Serini has indoor plumbing and a commode!?

Riftwolf

2021-09-17, 08:05 AM

In my mind, it reminds me of Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Arc: his adventure makes a great story, but he actually made no difference in the outcome.

Except if he hadn't been there, the Nazis wouldn't have found the Ark, and if they did, other Nazis would've retrieved it after the film instead of Warehouse 13, I mean the nondescript government storage facility.

Skull the Troll

2021-09-17, 08:24 AM

Yeah, I'm gonna say that murdering someone over a tone-deaf marriage proposal is a lot more objectionable than ignoring somebody's magical phone calls and then nonlethally removing them from your territory.

As Hilgya pointed out out what she did was yes, murder, was easily fixable. She can fix what she did personally in 10 minutes. (didn't even seem to take that long in the comic, Durkon barely had time for a sentence) Ignoring someone who is try to help you save the world is going to be a lot worse, because the world might end. Really show that the Order has been try to talk to her makes her even MORE unsympathetic. She could have just told them "Hey don't come here, I'll fight you if you do" and then what she's doing now would be a lot more justifiable.

JonahFalcon

2021-09-17, 08:24 AM

Serini has indoor plumbing and a commode!?

It isn't exactly the most out-there anachronism in the strip, and even in-universe the gnomes have a sewage treatment plant.

Kilremgor

2021-09-17, 08:34 AM

JonahFalcon

2021-09-17, 08:59 AM

That depends on interpretation, because Calm Emotions gets automatically removed on aggressive action versus affected creature:
"Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures." https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/calmEmotions.htm
It could be argued that Dispel Magic is "aggressive".

Look at the lightning around Belkar. Both Calm Emotions and Fear were dispelled.

Peelee

2021-09-17, 09:06 AM

In my mind, it reminds me of Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Arc: his adventure makes a great story, but he actually made no difference in the outcome.

Indy affected everything though?

Without Indy, Toht would have gotten the staff head from Marion, the Nazis dig in the right place, find and get the Ark, bring it back. To Hitler, and they march over the earth with it, presumably. Indy himself was the one who got them to open it, so we do not necessarily know Hitler would have done it. Also, even if he did, his advisors could potentially have also known how to survive as Indy did.

Dr. Jones drastically altered the entire plan.

Fyraltari

2021-09-17, 09:11 AM

Indy himself was the one who got them to open it, so we do not necessarily know Hitler would have done it. Also, even if he did, his advisors could potentially have also known how to survive as Indy did.

Bellocq was the one who insisted they opened it and the fact that he had the whole priest suit implies it was always the plan.

Edit: I also find it unlikely that there would be a high-ranking Nazi with better knowledge of Jewish stuff than Bellocq because... Well... Nazi.

JonahFalcon

2021-09-17, 09:26 AM

Bellocq was the one who insisted they opened it and the fact that he had the whole priest suit implies it was always the plan.

Edit: I also find it unlikely that there would be a high-ranking Nazi with better knowledge of Jewish stuff than Bellocq because... Well... Nazi.

{Scrubbed}

Oh, and his name is spelled "Belloq".

Update:

So, what's going on with Roy? Is Elan able to Neutralize Poison twice, or is it that pesky spell slot issue? Can healing spells remove sleep potion effects?

Fyraltari

2021-09-17, 09:58 AM

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
{Scrubbed}

Oh, and his name is spelled "Belloq".
Silly me, Bellocq (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellocq) is a place.

Edit: this might get us into unauthorized waters, so, d you think it's safe to say that if they had a guy who knew more about the ark than Belloq, he'd be with the team trying to find it?

pendell

2021-09-17, 10:25 AM

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Silly me, Bellocq (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellocq) is a place.

Edit: this might get us into unauthorized waters, so, d you think it's safe to say that if they had a guy who knew more about the ark than Belloq, he'd be with the team trying to find it?

{Scrubbed}

Without Indy, Toht would have gotten the staff head from Marion, the Nazis dig in the right place, find and get the Ark, bring it back. To Hitler, and they march over the earth with it, presumably. Indy himself was the one who got them to open it, so we do not necessarily know Hitler would have done it. Also, even if he did, his advisors could potentially have also known how to survive as Indy did.

Or the Nazis get the ark, Belloq opens the ark before taking it to Berlin which was his plan all along, and his face melts. The ark remains in some hidden base somewhere until it's found again, sometime, somewhere, by someone.

That's the mistake both the protagonists and the antagonists make: They thought the Ark is a tool that anyone can use, like a drill or a gun. But that's not what the Ark is. The closest I can describe it in board-friendly terms is as an intelligent artifact, like Stormbringer. If whatever-it-is that makes the Ark more than just a pretty box doesn't like the wielder, it kills them and everyone standing around.

There's a scene where the Ark is encased in a box stamped with the Nazi logo; both writing and logo are burned off, a clear indication that messing with the ark is not healthy for Nazis and this will not end well for them. In the absolute best case, they realize it themselves and bury it in a warehouse same as the Americans eventually did. The Ark is not a power humans can use. Humans that meddle with it, die.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

bunsen_h

2021-09-17, 10:33 AM

:vaarsuvius: [Strong elvish accent. Sound quality is terrible. There's background chatter of other elvish voices, as well as elvish music.] "I am Vincent from Microsoft Windows, telling you that Evil people have compromised the security of your Gate. I will help you upgrade your protections."

EDIT:

As Hilgya pointed out out what she did was yes, murder, was easily fixable. She can fix what she did personally in 10 minutes.

Except for Durkon's loss of another level. Under the circumstances, that's serious stuff.

Serini has indoor plumbing and a commode!?

The Romans had them. The flushing was continuous-flow. A "latrina" was a single-occupant toilet room, vs. a "forica", a multi-seater.

Ionathus

2021-09-17, 10:50 AM

I find it interesting that aside from Minrah, the members of the Order still awake aren’t the ones who know about the Plan and the goblin predicament.

Hmm, this is an excellent point. My money is on this being relevant, at least to give us a single strip of lighthearted or more combative dialogue before Durkon/Roy clue Serini in on the critical info she's missing.

OK, having played a lot of hobbits and halflings over the years, I ought to have phrased that differently. Two servings of Mrs. Starmast's home made guacamole for you. (By the way, her home made guac is awesome!).

Man, I want this guac more and more every time you reference it.

I...so why don't you tell them "**** off, everything's fine, you're just giving me a headache" or something? It's a wizard contacting you, you know what their Sense Motive checks are like, you could easily craft a lie that they could believe!

Have you ever argued with a six-year-old? It really doesn't matter what you say...if they want to do something, they'll try to find a way to justify or make excuses for why they actually CAN be trusted with it. I mentioned the baby bird thing in a prior thread: "don't touch the bird or the mother will abandon it" isn't a real thing (birds can't "smell the human" on their young), but if you say "no, you won't be careful enough and you might hurt it" then the child will just start arguing about how careful they can be. Same situation here with the gates: Serini has 0 trust in the Order, so she's just not going to even start the conversation.

Serini sees the Order as children. Well-equipped and well-meaning children, but children nonetheless. She's not going to give them any reasons for her actions, because giving a reason for your unpopular actions to a child is an invitation to a long and pointless argument with someone who doesn't know as much or understand how logic works. That's not a diss on the child -- they're learning how to talk and argue and reason things out and that's super cool -- but if it's very important that they not do something right now, particularly for safety reasons, sometimes "because I said so, no arguing" really is the most successful approach.

I never said I didn't object. But she got her You Suck speech too, and for something that had much less overall effect on the narrative than anything Serini is currently doing. Deflect to Hilgya all you want, she's not relevant here.

Pointing out that side characters have done worse things than Serini and only received a slap on the wrist in response is not "deflecting." You were the one who followed that comparison by claiming Hilgya's actions were not as bad/disruptive, and I responded to your statement. If you want to stop talking about Hilgya that's fine, but please don't accuse me of deflection on your way out of a topic that you also engaged me on.

I do presume everyone agrees on the fact that her premise is entirely overturned by the Plan, right?

A few months ago I (or somebody else, can't remember) proposed a new text color for "we are discussing hypotheticals within Serini's understanding of the gates, and therefore ignoring the implications of The Godsmoot and the true nature of The Plan." It never took off, but I think the forum has generally gotten better at instinctively delineating Serini's knowledge & logic from The Order's. Which is too bad, because I can't tell you how fun it would be to have coined a widely-used text color

Quizatzhaderac

2021-09-17, 11:22 AM

Serini has indoor plumbing and a commode!?
This is the essential difference between fantasy and history. It's usually not so on the nose, but people in fantasy don't have to deal with chamber pots and cholera and what-not.

It isn't exactly the most out-there anachronism in the strip, and even in-universe the gnomes have a sewage treatment plant.That was the azurites (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0660.html).

Also, even if he did, his advisors could potentially have also known how to survive as Indy did.Everyone knew the rules to handle the ark. The rules are in literally the most published book ever.

Spielberg probably didn't foreshadow what happened because he presumed the audience knew.

The Nazis were just so arrogant that they thought they could pick and choose which rules applied to them.

Fyraltari

2021-09-17, 11:35 AM

It's usually not so on the nose, but people in fantasy don't have to deal with chamber pots and cholera and what-not.

*Stares in Tyrion Lannister.*

Psyren

2021-09-17, 11:52 AM

Pointing out that side characters have done worse things than Serini and only received a slap on the wrist in response is not "deflecting." You were the one who followed that comparison by claiming Hilgya's actions were not as bad/disruptive, and I responded to your statement. If you want to stop talking about Hilgya that's fine, but please don't accuse me of deflection on your way out of a topic that you also engaged me on.

1) I'm not on my way out of anything.
2) Where you continue to fail is that you're comparing Hilgya's actions to Serini's in a vacuum. Yes, if you ask "what's worse, murdering one person or nonlethally knocking out several", obviously the former is worse. But in the broader context, when the former has no long-term consequences (because resurrection exists) but the latter is aimed at establishing centuries of despotism by an epic lich, that changes the math. At least a little, unless you don't care about results at all.

Riftwolf

2021-09-17, 11:59 AM

Spielberg probably didn't foreshadow what happened because he presumed the audience knew.

Not seen the film in a while but I'm pretty sure what happened was foreshadowed when Indiana was first approached to find the Ark. {Scrubbed}

Ionathus

2021-09-17, 12:11 PM

1) I'm not on my way out of anything.

Deflect to Hilgya all you want, she's not relevant here.

Earlier when you said I was "deflecting" to Hilgya and that she wasn't relevant, I took that to mean that you didn't want to discuss Hilgya anymore, didn't think discussing her was useful, and were "on your way out" of the topic of Hilgya (but not the overall thread or debate). I thought this was strange, because you and I had just discussed her and I'd found it useful.

2) Where you continue to fail is that you're comparing Hilgya's actions to Serini's in a vacuum. Yes, if you ask "what's worse, murdering one person or nonlethally knocking out several", obviously the former is worse. But in the broader context, when the former has no long-term consequences (because resurrection exists) but the latter is aimed at establishing centuries of despotism by an epic lich, that changes the math. At least a little, unless you don't care about results at all.

Okay, are we talking about Serini's specific behavior towards the heroes, or her broader scheme and philosophy? Because your original statement on this tangent was only about how she was obstructing the heroes, and didn't talk about the bigger picture:

Smacking down Durkon in a fit of pique, while heinous, was a single act. Not an entire campaign of obstructing not only the Order but also the surviving members of the Sapphire Guard based purely on an assumption/lack of faith in the heroes.

But sure, if you want to bring in the bigger picture, I'll bite. Like other posters who have said similar, I don't believe Serini's overall plan is "lay down and wait to die." If it were, she'd have taken down the traps and let Xykon waltz right in. Unlike some of those same posters, though, I don't think she has some bigger scheme in mind: I think her current plan is "stall for time until I come up with something," which is a very rogue thing to do...but that does not mean that she is giving up, even if it looks that way to Lawful Good characters like Lien and O-Chul who believe that Evil must be met head-on wherever it resides.

Metastachydium

2021-09-17, 12:16 PM

"stall for time until I come up with something," which is a very rogue thing to do...but that does not mean that she is giving up, even if it looks that way to Lawful Good characters like Lien and O-Chul who believe that Evil must be met head-on wherever it resides.

You sure we are talking about the same O-Chul (v. panel no. 4)? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html)

Psyren

2021-09-17, 12:26 PM

Okay, are we talking about Serini's specific behavior towards the heroes, or her broader scheme and philosophy? Because your original statement on this tangent was only about how she was obstructing the heroes, and didn't talk about the bigger picture:

But sure, if you want to bring in the bigger picture, I'll bite. Like other posters who have said similar, I don't believe Serini's overall plan is "lay down and wait to die." If it were, she'd have taken down the traps and let Xykon waltz right in. Unlike some of those same posters, though, I don't think she has some bigger scheme in mind: I think her current plan is "stall for time until I come up with something," which is a very rogue thing to do...but that does not mean that she is giving up, even if it looks that way to Lawful Good characters like Lien and O-Chul who believe that Evil must be met head-on wherever it resides.

My quote was very clearly about the bigger picture :smallconfused: I have no idea how you could read "campaign of obstruction" any other way.

Also, we know her goal, and it is definitely not merely stalling to come up with something. She wants Xykon to win so that the last gate, and thus the world, stays intact. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html) And she is okay with the unknowable duration of tyranny and sapient misery that will accompany that. She's even assuming that life for monsters may improve under that regime when, as we can empirically see with Gobbotopia, Xykon doesn't care about any living creatures.

But if she actually talked to the Order, she would know there are bigger problems too. Redcloak's plan to threaten the other gods might lead them to pop the cork anyway, or worse it might actually succeed and change the cosmology in unknown ways. And even if Xykon ices him and doesn't go through with that, we also have no idea what the IFCC are after, but V can warn her about that too. Serini assuming she has all the answers is a problem, and a way bigger problem than Hilgya killing and immediately resurrecting one dwarf. That's why I see any comparison between the two as utterly irrelevant. HTH.

hungrycrow

2021-09-17, 12:41 PM

My quote was very clearly about the bigger picture :smallconfused: I have no idea how you could read "campaign of obstruction" any other way.

Also, we know her goal, and it is definitely not merely stalling to come up with something. She wants Xykon to win so that the last gate, and thus the world, stays intact. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html) And she is okay with the unknowable duration of tyranny and sapient misery that will accompany that. She's even assuming that life for monsters may improve under that regime when, as we can empirically see with Gobbotopia, Xykon doesn't care about any living creatures.

To be fair here, this isn't Serini's stated plan, it's just a hypothetical option Serini is comparing to O'chul's decision to destroy the Azure City gate.

Personally I suspect Serini doesn't have a plan to stop Xykon, and hasn't opened up the dungeon to him just to buy the world a few more weeks without his rule. But that's just an assumption.

Fyraltari

2021-09-17, 12:43 PM

Also, we know her goal, and it is definitely not merely stalling to come up with something. She wants Xykon to win so that the last gate, and thus the world, stays intact. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html)

No, she doesn't. If she did, she'd drop the illusion on the tunnels and lead him to it. She just thinks the last Gate being broken is an even worse outcome than Xykon winning. She doesn't trust the Order and friends not to destroy the Gate should Team Evil wins which is why she wants them out of the picture. It's not that complicated.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 12:47 PM

No, she doesn't. If she did, she'd drop the illusion on the tunnels and lead him to it. She just thinks the last Gate being broken is an even worse outcome than Xykon winning. She doesn't trust the Order and friends not to destroy the Gate should Team Evil wins which is why she wants them out of the picture. It's not that complicated.

If her plan truly is "incapacitate all the other heroes and stop the guy who curbstomped me once by myself with no help" then she's even dumber than I thought.

And I'm seeing the assumption that she could just turn off all the defenses on the Gate pop up a lot. Y'all know she didn't actually build the dungeon right? She just bankrolled it?

NihhusHuotAliro

2021-09-17, 12:50 PM

Well, I think this ends the "Serini is, for some reason, Grandma Bitterleaf or otherwise related to Belkar" theory.

hungrycrow

2021-09-17, 12:51 PM

If her plan truly is "incapacitate all the other heroes and stop the guy who curbstomped me once by myself with no help" then she's even dumber than I thought.

And I'm seeing the assumption that she could just turn off all the defenses on the Gate pop up a lot. Y'all know she didn't actually build the dungeon right? She just bankrolled it?

She designed the defenses I think. At the very least she can turn off the teleport traps at the entrance; we don't know if there are defenses after that which she can't turn off.

Of course her not planning on defeating Xykon wouldn't necessarily mean she has to accelerate his victory.

Fyraltari

2021-09-17, 12:55 PM

If her plan truly is "incapacitate all the other heroes and stop the guy who curbstomped me once by myself with no help" then she's even dumber than I thought.
She got ganked when she was alone. He's on her turf with her monsters. Obviously she won't be the one to beat him because she's not the protagonist, but she'd have better odds in a rematch.

And I'm seeing the assumption that she could just turn off all the defenses on the Gate pop up a lot. Y'all know she didn't actually build the dungeon right? She just bankrolled it?

She designed it. These are her traps and her monsters in her dungeon. Haley could turn off the teleporting tunnel with a rat skull, do you really think she can't turn it off? Really?

Psyren

2021-09-17, 12:58 PM

She got ganked when she was alone. He's on her turf with her monsters. Obviously she won't be the one to beat him because she's not the protagonist, but she'd have better odds in a rematch.

Pretty sure he was alone then too.

She designed it. These are her traps and her monsters in her dungeon. Haley could turn off the teleporting tunnel with a rat skull, do you really think she can't turn it off? Really?

That's the only defense in there? Really?

danielxcutter

2021-09-17, 12:58 PM

There is a difference between being so resigned you don't bother with alternatives out of fear and prejudice and whatnot, and kicking her own doors herself.

Also like... it might just be me. I hope it's just me. But it feels like some of you guys have a knee-jerk reaction by seeing some people going "she attacked the Order, she's Evil" and running in the opposite direction from that. Because agreeing with that would make you the same as them.

You couldn't bring yourself to think the Klatchians had done it. Because that'd line you up with Sergeant Colon and the rest of the Klatchian-****-are-made-of-camel-dung brigade.

Going "OOO SERINI IS EVULZ" is pretty stupid, but so is rushing to the other extreme. I hope that's not what I'm seeing.

Dewin Dwl

2021-09-17, 01:00 PM

I find it interesting that aside from Minrah, the members of the Order still awake aren’t the ones who know about the Plan and the goblin predicament.

I hadn't picked up on this, but had noticed that Roy and Durkon had been omitted from the last few strips - not even depicted in the background. I guess these observations may be interconnected.

danielxcutter

2021-09-17, 01:03 PM

I hadn't picked up on this, but had noticed that Roy and Durkon had been omitted from the last few strips - not even depicted in the background. I guess these observations may be interconnected.

Personally, I expect the four here to start chipping away at Serini's reasoning before Minrah, Roy, and Durkon drive a bulldozer through it called The Plan.

Metastachydium

2021-09-17, 01:07 PM

She got ganked when she was alone. He's on her turf with her monsters. Obviously she won't be the one to beat him because she's not the protagonist, but she'd have better odds in a rematch.

The monsters Team Evil is plowing through at a rate of six Gates a night? Sure, the odds can only get better than "epic level lich sorcerer ambushes you", but she probably shouldn't feel too safe.

Personally, I expect the four here to start chipping away at Serini's reasoning before Minrah, Roy, and Durkon drive a bulldozer through it called The Plan.

…convincing her that THE PLAN MUST CONTINUE!

danielxcutter

2021-09-17, 01:10 PM

The monsters Team Evil is plowing through at a rate of six Gates a night? Sure, the odds can only get better than "epic level lich sorcerer ambushes you", but she probably shouldn't feel too safe.

In fact, every dungeon they plow through makes it less likely for Xykon to be defeated, because even if he doesn't get much XP his other allies do. Redcloak might be 18th~19th level by now.

Serini's willfully content with delaying the inevitable; she's just not greasing the chutes.

Ionathus

2021-09-17, 01:15 PM

My quote was very clearly about the bigger picture :smallconfused: I have no idea how you could read "campaign of obstruction" any other way.

"Campaign of obstructing The Order and the paladins in their plan for the last gate."

But if she actually talked to the Order, she would know there are bigger problems too. Redcloak's plan to threaten the other gods might lead them to pop the cork anyway, or worse it might actually succeed and change the cosmology in unknown ways. And even if Xykon ices him and doesn't go through with that, we also have no idea what the IFCC are after, but V can warn her about that too. Serini assuming she has all the answers is a problem, and a way bigger problem than Hilgya killing and immediately resurrecting one dwarf. That's why I see any comparison between the two as utterly irrelevant. HTH.

Serini was on the original team that sealed the Rifts and created the gates. They learned everything there was to know about them before cleansing the history books of any reference to them. The Order only knows what they know due to divine revelations from a god, and because they initiated a discussion with Redcloak because of those same revelations...something the Scribblers believed wouldn't happen (i.e. gods won't tell mortals about the Rifts or the Snarl). So yeah, I don't really think she's crazy or stupid for assuming she already knows everything that the Order could tell her.

It would be lovely if Serini was a conversational Lawful Good type who believes that everyone should be heard out fully before being dismissed. But she's not, and that doesn't automatically make her a moron. An arrogant condescending jerk, sure.

You sure we are talking about the same O-Chul (v. panel no. 4)? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html)

Sure. O-Chul was also happy to wait on the cliff face rather than go down and start trying doors himself. He's tactically savvy enough to wait for the right time to strike, but I think there's a distinction between that and his more philosophical stance in their argument with Serini. O-Chul might be tactical, but he doesn't want to retreat from Xykon's plot to take over the world. Whereas Serini is willing to "know when to fold 'em" and wait for another chance to strike.

There was a similar discussion with Hinjo and Haley after the Sapphire shattered. It's the moral rigidity that paladins are often depicted with: they're not willing to let even a single innocent suffer while they still draw breath. O-Chul thinks he and Lien and the Order could face Xykon right now and end his threat: Serini thinks it's too big a risk.

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-17, 01:17 PM

it's the "you're asking the wrong question" type of retort. And Belkar acknowledges it immediately by saying "yeah, that was my next question." +1 for this.

Whether she was always this way or whether it grew on her with old age is probably the more interesting question I'll drop two centavos on the "gets worse with old age" given my own life experience.

Serini has indoor plumbing and a commode!?

It isn't exactly the most out-there anachronism in the strip, and even in-universe the gnomes have a sewage treatment plant. +1

Man, I want this guac more and more every time you reference it. If I could down load it and send it to you via PM, I'd do so, but we have a few technological hurdles to overcome first ... :smallfrown:

Have you ever argued with a six-year-old? I'll answer a question with a question: have you ever argued on the internet? :smallbiggrin:

Serini sees the Order as children. Well-equipped and well-meaning children, but children nonetheless. A fair assessment.

Well, I think this ends the "Serini is, for some reason, Grandma Bitterleaf or otherwise related to Belkar" theory. And odds on her being Aunt Judy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html) are rapidly approaching zero.

Fyraltari

2021-09-17, 01:19 PM

Pretty sure he was alone then too.
And that would matyer if anyone were suggesting she challenge him to a duel.

That's the only defense in there? Really?
Probably not. What's your point?

The monsters Team Evil is plowing through at a rate of six Gates a night?
No, these are the decoy monsters in the tunnels of the fake dungeon that lead nowhere. We know that there are other monsters on Serini's employ as evidenced by Sunny and Mimi.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 01:23 PM

"Campaign of obstructing The Order and the paladins in their plan for the last gate."

Yeah, to locate/secure/fortify it before Team Evil gets there. You know, the plan? :smallconfused:

Serini was on the original team that sealed the Rifts and created the gates. They learned everything there was to know about them before cleansing the history books of any reference to them.

They clearly didn't, because they don't know squat about The Dark One's plan or the IFCC's. And by all accounts, nobody but the Order knows about the planet inside the rifts either.

The Order only knows what they know due to divine revelations from a god, and because they initiated a discussion with Redcloak because of those same revelations...something the Scribblers believed wouldn't happen (i.e. gods won't tell mortals about the Rifts or the Snarl). So yeah, I don't really think she's crazy or stupid for assuming she already knows everything that the Order could tell her.

It would be lovely if Serini was a conversational Lawful Good type who believes that everyone should be heard out fully before being dismissed. But she's not, and that doesn't automatically make her a moron. An arrogant condescending jerk, sure.

Agreed on crazy, disagreed on stupid. Are we really saying just talking to them and finding out what they know would have made it completely impossible for her to ambush them later if she deemed that necessary? Are we saying an epic rogue couldn't have bluffed V if necessary?

Metastachydium

2021-09-17, 01:23 PM

No, these are the decoy monsters in the tunnels of the fake dungeon that lead nowhere. We know that there are other monsters on Serini's employ as evidenced by Sunny and Mimi.

A beh thing with all the eyes and a mimic versus critters that can give Xykon XP. I'm sure the Bony Bastard would be trembling if he knew.

danielxcutter

2021-09-17, 01:24 PM

To be fair Sunny would normally be an excellent counter to Team Evil assuming that Xykon doesn't have something like Hellball. But considering Sunny acts like they're 10 at most, or post-Dashing Swordsman pre-BRItF Elan, I can see why Serini would be less willing to risk them against Xykon compared to the Order. Heck, the entire reason the comic's not effectively over is arguably because Sunny made a mistake.

pyrefiend

2021-09-17, 01:24 PM

No, she doesn't. If she did, she'd drop the illusion on the tunnels and lead him to it. She just thinks the last Gate being broken is an even worse outcome than Xykon winning. She doesn't trust the Order and friends not to destroy the Gate should Team Evil wins which is why she wants them out of the picture. It's not that complicated.

100% agreed. This much should not be up for debate.

And even if she can't turn off the teleport trap for some reason, there are plenty of things she could do to lead Team Evil to the Gate, if that was her goal.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 01:28 PM

And that would matyer if anyone were suggesting she challenge him to a duel.

You brought up her not being alone to point out that she'd have better odds in a fight this time. Meanwhile he has a near-epic cleric and a clearly high-level ranger on his side, on top of being even more powerful himself. It's madness.

Probably not. What's your point?

That your assumption that she can disable all of them just because a rogue can turn off the very first one we saw is unfounded.

A beh thing with all the eyes and a mimic versus critters that can give Xykon XP. I'm sure the Bony Bastard would be trembling if he knew.

^ This.

Fyraltari

2021-09-17, 01:30 PM

A beh thing with all the eyes and a mimic versus critters that can give Xykon XP.

Are the people she took with her to fight the Order who are much less dangerous than the order.

Like, if I were the lord of a fortress and I heard a couple of thieves got inside while an unrelated enemy army was besieging me, I would not send all my troops after the thieves. In fact, I'd keep my best troops at their station, manning the walls in case the army attacks today.

danielxcutter

2021-09-17, 01:32 PM

That's because Eye Tyrants specialize in cheesing fights against adventurers with their AMF.

Also if she thinks they can't beat Xykon it's not much of a reach to assume she'd bring forces against the Order that she wouldn't risk losing to him. Like, say, her adoptive children.

Metastachydium

2021-09-17, 01:33 PM

Sure. O-Chul was also happy to wait on the cliff face rather than go down and start trying doors himself. He's tactically savvy enough to wait for the right time to strike, but I think there's a distinction between that and his more philosophical stance in their argument with Serini. O-Chul might be tactical, but he doesn't want to retreat from Xykon's plot to take over the world. Whereas Serini is willing to "know when to fold 'em" and wait for another chance to strike.

There was a similar discussion with Hinjo and Haley after the Sapphire shattered. It's the moral rigidity that paladins are often depicted with: they're not willing to let even a single innocent suffer while they still draw breath. O-Chul thinks he and Lien and the Order could face Xykon right now and end his threat: Serini thinks it's too big a risk.

In some ways, even Hinjo was more flexible than Serini (v. actually listening to Haley), what with her unshakeable conviction that everyone else in the game is some dumb child who doesn't understand. She shows willingness to take a huge risk herself, just because she thinks the Order and the Guard are simply too dumb to live.

Fyraltari

2021-09-17, 01:35 PM

You brought up her not being alone to point out that she'd have better odds in a fight this time. Meanwhile he has a near-epic cleric and a clearly high-level ranger on his side, on top of being even more powerful himself. It's madness.
And we don't know what she has with her. My point was that he caught her unprepared while today she has the opportunity to do the opposite.

That your assumption that she can disable all of them just because a rogue can turn off the very first one we saw is unfounded.
She's the one who designed the damned place! She can come and go as she pleases, why couldn't she lead him to the Hate if she wants? This is ridiculous! Who do you think the people who keep it going answer to? The Draketooths needed a whole schedule (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) to keep their defenses running, why do you think hers could go sixty years without maintenance?

Psyren

2021-09-17, 01:47 PM

And we don't know what she has with her. My point was that he caught her unprepared while today she has the opportunity to do the opposite.

She had weeks to do that before the Order even got there. Clearly it's going well, what with Xykon and crew leveling up on her defenses and even finding level-appropriate treasure and all.

Are the people she took with her to fight the Order who are much less dangerous than the order.

Like, if I were the lord of a fortress and I heard a couple of thieves got inside while an unrelated enemy army was besieging me, I would not send all my troops after the thieves. In fact, I'd keep my best troops at their station, manning the walls in case the army attacks today.

Clearly these masterful tactics have gone well for her too. Xykon better watch out.

She's the one who designed the damned place! She can come and go as she pleases, why couldn't she lead him to the Hate if she wants? This is ridiculous! Who do you think the people who keep it going answer to? The Draketooths needed a whole schedule (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) to keep their defenses running, why do you think hers could go sixty years without maintenance?

So she designed the place from the ground up to give attackers treasure too? And to let them back out unmolested so they can rest up and try again? She has full control over all of that? That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of her brain power.

BloodSquirrel

2021-09-17, 02:03 PM

So she designed the place from the ground up to give attackers treasure too? And to let them back out unmolested so they can rest up and try again? She has full control over all of that? That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of her brain power.

Less sarcastically: She's a rogue. Even if she's an epic-level one, she still isn't a spellcaster, and her means of using magic is necessarily indirect (ie, using magical devices and potions). It's quite conceivable that she would have defenses installed around the gate that she can't turn off, if for no other reason, than because if she can turn them off, then somebody else probably can. Case in point: Haley was able to bypass the door trap, and she herself pointed out that it was a very weak line of defense. I see no reason why Serini would insist on having a similar weakness built into the final line of defenses when there's no reason that she would ever have to need to breach them herself.

Of course, this doesn't mean that she couldn't at least tell Xykon what those defenses were and where the real path to the dungeon is if she actually wanted to help him.

bunsen_h

2021-09-17, 02:12 PM

You couldn't bring yourself to think the Klatchians had done it. Because that'd line you up with Sergeant Colon and the rest of the Klatchian-****-are-made-of-camel-dung brigade.

Note that in that context, "****" are just cigarettes. It's not even intended to be a joke, unlike the cross-cultural bit in Good Omens in which an American guard is querying Newt about his official Witchfinder authorization card.

"What's this here", he said suspiciously, "about us got to give you ******s?"

"Oh, we have to have them," said Newt. "We burn them."

The guard's face broadened into a grin. And they'd told him England was soft. "Right on!" he said.

Hm. I see that the forum software automatically bleeps out words that are considered offensive even when the in-context use is appropriate.

skim172

2021-09-17, 02:21 PM

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Or the Nazis get the ark, Belloq opens the ark before taking it to Berlin which was his plan all along, and his face melts. The ark remains in some hidden base somewhere until it's found again, sometime, somewhere, by someone.

That's the mistake both the protagonists and the antagonists make: They thought the Ark is a tool that anyone can use, like a drill or a gun. But that's not what the Ark is. The closest I can describe it in board-friendly terms is as an intelligent artifact, like Stormbringer. If whatever-it-is that makes the Ark more than just a pretty box doesn't like the wielder, it kills them and everyone standing around.

There's a scene where the Ark is encased in a box stamped with the Nazi logo; both writing and logo are burned off, a clear indication that messing with the ark is not healthy for Nazis and this will not end well for them. In the absolute best case, they realize it themselves and bury it in a warehouse same as the Americans eventually did. The Ark is not a power humans can use. Humans that meddle with it, die.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

{Scrubbed}

As for ol' Indy - I'm of the opinion that Indy really screwed things up by getting involved. If it wasn't for Indy, the Nazis never would've even found the right place to dig for the Ark of the Covenant. And even if they Nazis had recovered the Ark, they would've just opened it up (maybe even in Hitler's presence?) and ended up all melty-faced. This was a problem that would've solved itself.

And, if Indy hadn't gotten involved, there would've been a good many ancient untouched temples and tombs that would've been left intact for archaeological study. Think what amazing discoveries could've been made by (real) archaeologists from those ruins alone!

{Scrubbed}

Ionathus

2021-09-17, 02:49 PM

Like, if I were the lord of a fortress and I heard a couple of thieves got inside while an unrelated enemy army was besieging me, I would not send all my troops after the thieves. In fact, I'd keep my best troops at their station, manning the walls in case the army attacks today.

Oh, I absolutely would not. I would leave a token force at the walls to alert me if anything changes, sure, but the army outside is a passive, predictable threat. If the thieves have the run of the place, neutralizing that threat is priority #1. Because even though they're much weaker comparatively, the damage they can do is amplified and unpredictable. What if the thieves get jumpy and kill a guard at an important entryway, or let a drawbridge down during their escape? What if they stumble onto the child prince's room and decide to take him hostage? What if they steal a map of the castle and then get caught by the besieging army on the way out?

Obviously there's a calculus going on here, but in general, a force inside your defenses is a much more active threat than a force outside of them. It's a common trope for heroes to get inside an enemy castle/fortress/laboratory/complex and start raising hell, running amok in the hallways, sowing chaos in hit-and-run tactics.

In some ways, even Hinjo was more flexible than Serini (v. actually listening to Haley), what with her unshakeable conviction that everyone else in the game is some dumb child who doesn't understand. She shows willingness to take a huge risk herself, just because she thinks the Order and the Guard are simply too dumb to live.

Hinjo was more willing to talk and engage in diplomacy because that's what paladins do: they believe in open and honest discussion. Serini is an old bitter condescending curmudgeon who thinks she knows better than everyone else and I think the narrative has established that quite plainly. That doesn't change either of their philosophical viewpoints, or how flexible they are about acceptable collateral damage.

Fyraltari

2021-09-17, 02:50 PM

She had weeks to do that before the Order even got there.
The timeline is a bit wonky, but it's only been around ten days since Girard's Gate.

Clearly these masterful tactics have gone well for her too. Xykon better watch out.
I'm not saying her plan is falwless, I am saying the odea that she wants to just hand the Gate to Team Evil is patently ridiculous.

Squire Doodad

2021-09-17, 02:50 PM

Naturally, what Serini is growing in the lower left panel are none other than young, sprouting amnesia peppers. (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2007/01/02/episode-790-its-where-the-powder-comes-from/)

The MunchKING

2021-09-17, 02:54 PM

As Hilgya pointed out out what she did was yes, murder, was easily fixable. She can fix what she did personally in 10 minutes. (didn't even seem to take that long in the comic, Durkon barely had time for a sentence)

The version she cast has a 1 minute casting time (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm).

Jay R

2021-09-17, 03:00 PM

Ionathus

2021-09-17, 03:01 PM

Well, I think this ends the "Serini is, for some reason, Grandma Bitterleaf or otherwise related to Belkar" theory.

Unless, in a wildly contrived fit of fan conspiracy theories happy coincidence, Sunny is themselves an adoptive parent of another abandoned creature, a creature who lives deeper in the complex because she hates the terrible, medicinal flavor of Serini's salads so passionately but always shows up for Gouda & Poker Night with Granny Bitter Leaf (no relation). I am talking, of course, about
Redcloak's Niece.
Fight me.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 03:05 PM

The timeline is a bit wonky, but it's only been around ten days since Girard's Gate.

Week and a half then. How many rounds is that again?

I'm not saying her plan is falwless, I am saying the odea that she wants to just hand the Gate to Team Evil is patently ridiculous.

It's a lot less ridiculous than the idea that she has some super-secret and super-effective ambush gambit in mind, once she's done getting all these pesky high-level potential allies out of the way.

Given that she through her own words is totally fine with Xykon getting the Gate, and especially before the heroes can blow it up first and trigger the world's end, the logical conclusion is that she can't just give it to him. Why that is, I don't yet know.

Ionathus

2021-09-17, 03:07 PM

It's a lot less ridiculous than the idea that she has some super-secret and super-effective ambush gambit in mind, once she's done getting all these pesky high-level potential allies out of the way.

Given that she through her own words is totally fine with Xykon getting the Gate, and especially before the heroes can blow it up first and trigger the world's end, the logical conclusion is that she can't just give it to him. Why that is, I don't yet know.

An easier assumption to make is that she neither has a super-secret gambit nor does she plan to just hand the gate over to Xykon: the scenario that requires the fewest assumptions about her capabilities and motivations is that she's currently just stalling for time, and that the Order are trying to rush in too quickly for her tastes.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 03:14 PM

An easier assumption to make is that she neither has a super-secret gambit nor does she plan to just hand the gate over to Xykon: the scenario that requires the fewest assumptions about her capabilities and motivations is that she's currently just stalling for time, and that the Order are trying to rush in too quickly for her tastes.

The entire premise of her seeing Xykon's tyranny as the lesser evil is that he'll only be in charge for "a few years" before "someone" comes along to eventually topple him from power.

When her own damn dungeon is actively making him more powerful, stalling makes that situation worse. Which brings me right back to what I said earlier about her brain power.

Fyraltari

2021-09-17, 03:17 PM

Yup.

Grand Moff Tarkin sneering, "I think you overestimate their chances."
Cardinal Richelieu ignoring the musketeers to focus on Buckingham.
The aliens in Independence Day attacking the earth while ignoring the one ship that just flew up to the mother ship.
Sauron emptying Mordor to attack the army at his gates.

That's what every party infiltrating a fortress counts on.
So now, people are suggesting the Order is working with Team Evil?
I can't even...

Week and a half then. How many rounds is that again?

It's a lot less ridiculous than the idea that she has some super-secret and super-effective ambush gambit in mind, once she's done getting all these pesky high-level potential allies out of the way.
That's not what I said either. I have no odea what her actual plan is. But I know that the idea that she wants to hand Xykon the Gate but is somehow foiled by her own defenses is dumber than a pile of bricks.

Given that she through her own words is totally fine with Xykon getting the Gate,
She didn't say that. She said she would rather he have it than the world blows up. That doesn't mean she wants for him to have it. I'd rather lose a hand than a foot, that doesn't mean I am currently unable to find a chopper

An easier assumption to make is that she neither has a super-secret gambit nor does she plan to just hand the gate over to Xykon: the scenario that requires the fewest assumptions about her capabilities and motivations is that she's currently just stalling for time, and that the Order are trying to rush in too quickly for her tastes.
Thank you!

Edit: Psyren, in your mind, why hasn't she shorted out the fake tunnel trick yet?

Petrocorus

2021-09-17, 03:25 PM

Silly me, Bellocq (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellocq) is a place.

I always thought "Belloq" was an odd spelling.

Not seen the film in a while but I'm pretty sure what happened was foreshadowed when Indiana was first approached to
find the Ark. Although it's mentioned in the Old Testament, not everyone has read the Torah/Bible and can recall it perfectly.
I believe a writer should never makes assumption about what the audience knows, especially nowadays with the international market.
Everything the audience needs to understand a movie should be in the movie itself.

I'll drop two centavos on the "gets worse with old age" given my own life experience.
You're not old, you're high level.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 03:25 PM

Edit: Psyren, in your mind, why hasn't she shorted out the fake tunnel trick yet?

Because she's primarily focused (foolishly) on getting rid of the heroes who actually have a high-level rogue and thus would bypass it without her.
Because there's other stuff further in she can't turn off anyway, because she didn't actually build the whole dungeon herself.
Because she hasn't exactly been a paragon of reason from where I'm sitting.

Pick one/all.

Ionathus

2021-09-17, 03:29 PM

So now, people are suggesting the Order is working with Team Evil?
I can't even...

I think they're saying that "How much damage can a few punks running around inside our fortifications do? Don't worry about them." does not always work out for other fortifications. Team Evil and The Order aren't allied, but Serini sees both of them as separate threats to the Gate, and is going to focus on the ones who are less predictable and in a more vulnerable area of her defenses.

Or, to quote Jack Sparrow: "Me? I'm dishonest. And a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. It's the honest ones you have to look out for. Honestly. Because you can never know when they're going to do something incredibly...stupid."

Fyraltari

2021-09-17, 03:29 PM

Because she's primarily focused (foolishly) on getting rid of the heroes who actually have a high-level rogue and thus would bypass it without her.
Why do it ten days ago?

Because there's other stuff further in she can't turn off anyway, because she didn't actually build the whole dungeon herself.
How are those things still running after sixty years when Girard's illusions needed constant maintenance and Dorukan's best spell lasts only a couple dozen weeks at a time. And also why not short out what she can and let TE deal with the rest in your scenario?

Because she hasn't exactly been a paragon of reason from where I'm sitting.
Well, if you start with the idea that she's being irrational I guess, you can convlude that she's being irrationnal.

Metastachydium

2021-09-17, 03:31 PM

Hinjo was more willing to talk and engage in diplomacy because that's what paladins do: they believe in open and honest discussion. Serini is an old bitter condescending curmudgeon who thinks she knows better than everyone else and I think the narrative has established that quite plainly. That doesn't change either of their philosophical viewpoints, or how flexible they are about acceptable collateral damage.

Sure. All I'm saying is, paladins are not rigid all around. (Heck, they probably have the better kind of flexibility.)
More to the point, Serini strikes me as someone who's not really good at assessing threat levels.

Sunny is themselves an adoptive parent of another abandoned creature, a creature who lives deeper in the complex because she hates the terrible, medicinal flavor of Serini's salads so passionately but always shows up for Gouda & Poker Night with Granny Bitter Leaf (no relation). I am talking, of course, about
Redcloak's Niece.
Fight me.

[Full-attacks.]

Psyren

2021-09-17, 03:55 PM

Why do it ten days ago?

If her goal is to avoid a fight between the Order and Team Evil that could result in the Gate's destruction, stymieing their scouts (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) being a better use of her time is a conclusion she could arrive at.

How are those things still running after sixty years when Girard's illusions needed constant maintenance and Dorukan's best spell lasts only a couple dozen weeks at a time. And also why not short out what she can and let TE deal with the rest in your scenario?

Maybe because those defenses aren't illusion spells? Soon's Gate didn't use spells at all, renewable or otherwise.

This dungeon, unlike Girard's Pyramid, is made of dimensional stone. We have no idea what properties or defenses go with that. (Hell, Girard's last line of defense for his own Gate was common lead.)

Well, if you start with the idea that she's being irrational I guess, you can convlude that she's being irrationnal.

Stalling indefinitely while the guy who stomped her face once gets even stronger, but still hoping to stop him alone, is rational?

Quizatzhaderac

2021-09-17, 04:02 PM

Fyraltari

2021-09-17, 04:05 PM

I always thought "Belloq" was an odd spelling.
Just feels wrong doesn't it?

If her goal is to avoid a fight between the Order and Team Evil that could result in the Gate's destruction, stymieing their scouts (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) being a better use of her time is a conclusion she could arrive at.
Except that TE was there days before the paladins arrived. And the paladins somehow spent around 30hrs unconscious in her lair.

Maybe because those defenses aren't illusion spells? Soon's Gate didn't use spells at all, renewable or otherwise.
If they're not magical (despite her first line of defense being magical, mind you) why would she, the one whi designed them in the first place be unable to disarm them?
And you did not answer me about why she would let said first line in place when we know it can be disarmed by a rogue much lower level than her with little time and almost no material?

This dungeon, unlike Girard's Pyramid, is made of dimensional stone. We have no idea what properties or defenses go with that. (Hell, Girard's last line of defense for his own Gate was common lead.)
The stone doesn't seem to actively do anything. It seems to simply stop attempts to cheese the dungeon by teleporting, ghostforming or whatever. And, again, if her plan is to help Team Evil why not go to them and tell them what the defenses are?

Stalling indefinitely while the guy who stomped her face once gets even stronger, but still hoping to stop him alone, is rational?

Who said anything about stalling indefinitely or attacking alone? It looks like she was waiting for the Order to arrive so she can make sure they won't interfere and then enact whatever plan she had with the team (her monsters) she trust to not blow up the Gate. That's not the best of plans but it makes sense. An ally you don't trust is worse than no ally at all.

elros

2021-09-17, 04:17 PM

I think the whole point of this update is to explain Serini’s mindset: she is not evil or naturally a curmudgeon, but as the last panel shows, not going regularly makes her cranky.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 04:21 PM

Except that TE was there days before the paladins arrived. And the paladins somehow spent around 30hrs unconscious in her lair.

Right, so if she had some big ambush planned, what was she doing with that time?

If they're not magical (despite her first line of defense being magical, mind you) why would she, the one whi designed them in the first place be unable to disarm them?

And you did not answer me about why she would let said first line in place when we know it can be disarmed by a rogue much lower level than her with little time and almost no material?

Because they may not be disarmable traps at all. Properties of dimensional stone, the worst monsters in the menagerie, etc. She designed the dungeon according to what she thought Kraagor's capabilities and specifications would be, not her own.

As for removing the first line - what would be the point of doing that without first focusing on the Order, who can also easily detect and bypass it? Her goal is to keep the two groups separated while she deals with the latter - so removing it for Team Evil while the Order can bypass it on their own only increases the chances of them meeting and putting the Gate in danger.

The stone doesn't seem to actively do anything. It seems to simply stop attempts to cheese the dungeon by teleporting, ghostforming or whatever.

You don't know the extent of what it does, nor anything else about what is further inside the "true paths." Whatever is back there, the idea that it's not something she can simply turn off stands. Girard's super-runes didn't even when his whole clan died, and I have no idea how you'd disable Soon's.

Who said anything about stalling indefinitely or attacking alone? It looks like she was waiting for the Order to arrive so she can make sure they won't interfere and then enact whatever plan she had with the team (her monsters) she trust to not blow up the Gate. That's not the best of plans but it makes sense. An ally you don't trust is worse than no ally at all.

And when her enemy is continually getting stronger while she putzes around, but her monsters don't? Part of the plan?

Look, I don't think it's impossible that she is trying to stall here. But I still think it is much more foolish than simply talking to the only other people she knows to have survived this villain, and even beaten them once. I don't think she's insane or anything like that, just dumb and wrong.

Yirggzmb

2021-09-17, 04:43 PM

My bet is that Sereni would've been perfectly happy to talk to the Order and see what they know...under her own terms. IE, with them restrained in her hideout like the paladins, and with a nice pot of amnesia potion nearby. She'd probably still have expected to drug them and dump them off somewhere, of course, but they may have knowledge of other bumblers coming in later or whatever, so why not find out first.

Clistenes

2021-09-17, 04:44 PM

The entire premise of her seeing Xykon's tyranny as the lesser evil is that he'll only be in charge for "a few years" before "someone" comes along to eventually topple him from power.

When her own damn dungeon is actively making him more powerful, stalling makes that situation worse. Which brings me right back to what I said earlier about her brain power.

"Somebody" is trying to stop Xykon now, and she is hindering them... I wonder who she expects to defeat Xykon and wrest the Gate from him... Is she waiting for a demigod to appear?

I hope they get the chance to talk, so Serini can tell them "Xykon reaching the Gate and conquering the world is better than the Gate being destroyed and the world being obliterated" and the OotS can answer: "Actually, nope. If Xykon gains control of the Gate, the gods kill everybody, the world ends, and Hel gets dibs on the souls of all dwarves..."

I wonder if Serini will believe them, or she will still keep trying to get rid of them...

JSSheridan

2021-09-17, 06:11 PM

Thanks Giant!

I guess indoor plumbing exists in this world

Psyren

2021-09-17, 07:35 PM

"Somebody" is trying to stop Xykon now, and she is hindering them... I wonder who she expects to defeat Xykon and wrest the Gate from him... Is she waiting for a demigod to appear?

I hope they get the chance to talk, so Serini can tell them "Xykon reaching the Gate and conquering the world is better than the Gate being destroyed and the world being obliterated" and the OotS can answer: "Actually, nope. If Xykon gains control of the Gate, the gods kill everybody, the world ends, and Hel gets dibs on the souls of all dwarves..."

I wonder if Serini will believe them, or she will still keep trying to get rid of them...

Amazing what she might have learned had she just answered the phone.

Thanks Giant!

I guess indoor plumbing exists in this world

Always has (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html) :smalltongue:

Windscion

2021-09-17, 07:44 PM

They clearly didn't, because they don't know squat about The Dark One's plan or the IFCC's. And by all accounts, nobody but the Order knows about the planet inside the rifts either.

Assuming the planet inside the rifts has been there all along, the casters (Lirian, Durokan) must have known about them, so Serini would as well. But in that case I would expect the gods to also be aware, which they are not.

Assuming the caster didn't know about it (my personal headcanon), it presumably wasn't there. Remember that the gates are Epic Magic. Epic magic can thwart gods, so it isn't patently absurd that the gates "tamed" the chaos in a way that recovered previous order.

Wraithfighter

2021-09-17, 08:02 PM

Assuming the planet inside the rifts has been there all along, the casters (Lirian, Durokan) must have known about them, so Serini would as well. But in that case I would expect the gods to also be aware, which they are not.

Assuming the caster didn't know about it (my personal headcanon), it presumably wasn't there. Remember that the gates are Epic Magic. Epic magic can thwart gods, so it isn't patently absurd that the gates "tamed" the chaos in a way that recovered previous order.

Presumably, Soon would also know, and would have brought that up to his Paladins. And that Xykon might know, because of Serini's diary (I don't see her saying where to find all the gates and what they all do but leaving out the whole planet thing). It seems almost certain that the planet is something new that wasn't there during the time of the Scribbles.

Maybe something relating to the final member of the Scribbles gang? I mean, everyone's saying he died, he has (or, rather, had) a nice statue... but I don't see no body here...

Petrocorus

2021-09-17, 08:08 PM

I wonder what a Regenerate could do for Serini's complexion.

Just feels wrong doesn't it?
Yep.
Though oddly enough this actually exist (https://www.geneanet.org/genealogie/belloq/BELLOQ). And apparently, it comes from my own Aquitaine (https://www.filae.com/nom-de-famille/BELLOQ.html).

Psyren

2021-09-17, 08:14 PM

KorvinStarmast

2021-09-17, 08:23 PM

Windscion

2021-09-17, 08:38 PM

Not sure what point you're making here. Even if the planet is a completely new phenomenon, the fact is that it is a data point she doesn't know about, and that the Order do.

Not talking about you or your opinions; I am talking about the planet in the rifts. I don't find the question of assigning blame interesting at all.

Besides, knowing "about" is not enough. They know the IFCC has plans. They don't know what those plans are. They don't understand the significance of the planet in the rifts. And Soon's paladins knew enough about TDO's plans to track the Crimson Mantle across an unspecified but presumably significant distance.

At some point you need to chuck everything you don't know into a big bucket of "forget about it for now" and do something. And because the Scribblers did something, their world survives to this day. So Serini has earned some degree of forbearance from those who might otherwise be inclined to criticise her decisions.

Psyren

2021-09-17, 09:06 PM

Not talking about you or your opinions; I am talking about the planet in the rifts. I don't find the question of assigning blame interesting at all.

Besides, knowing "about" is not enough. They know the IFCC has plans. They don't know what those plans are. They don't understand the significance of the planet in the rifts. And Soon's paladins knew enough about TDO's plans to track the Crimson Mantle across an unspecified but presumably significant distance.

At some point you need to chuck everything you don't know into a big bucket of "forget about it for now" and do something. And because the Scribblers did something, their world survives to this day. So Serini has earned some degree of forbearance from those who might otherwise be inclined to criticise her decisions.

When "do something" leads to you poisoning paladins and letting the evil lich who pushed your face in before win, it may be time to re-evaluate and at least have a conversation.