Level 6 Battle Royale tournament PARTY builds

[Eldariel]

Hey,

So I ended up helping a fellow with a level 6 battle royale tournament; the tournament is done, but I figured it's an interesting enough problem that I'd like to see what others thought of it. The rules are as follows.

- The fight is in a 100'/120' arena

- Magic weapons and monsters periodically spawn

- There are multiple teams in everybody vs. everybody + monsters. Last one standing wins.

- Characters pop into existence in the start of the encounter. No actions can be taken before then (not even Find Familiar or similar).

Character creation rules:

- 27 point buy by standard rules

- Characters must be single-classed level 6 characters of a PHB class and subclass

- Characters must be of PHB races and no more than one of each race (so no Drow and Wood Elf for example; only one Elf)

- Characters have no background and no chance to purchase items; they only have their starting equipment and skills from class and race

- PHB only character options (feats, spells, etc.) with the exception of abilities that specifically reference monsters (Wildshape, Conjure Animals, etc.)

- Every character has full HP from HD.

- There are four (4) characters in the party that must come from classes as follows (with no duplicate classes):

1. Warrior: Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, or Paladin

2. Arcane: Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard

3. Divine: Cleric, Druid, Paladin, or Ranger

4. Support: Bard, Druid, Monk, Ranger, or Rogue


Class-specific stuff and houserules:

- Wizards only have spells from level-ups.

- Wildshaping or other kind of shapeshifting causes Mage Armor to drop off (the houserule ties it to the form, not the creature)

- Conjure Animals summons a random creature from the CR chosen (not of lower CR)

- Conjure Animals can be holistically Dispelled by targeting the caster with the Dispel

- Magic Missile hits three times (autokilling a downed character)

- Silent Image or Minor Illusion cannot be used to grant concealment

[Unoriginal]

A few questions:

-What are the victory conditions?

-How many fights are expected?

-Are the PCs who are involved told anything about who or what they're going to face?

[Master O'Laughs]

Hmm, Off the top of my head a party consisting of:

Warrior: Half Elf Paladin (vengeance)
Arcane: Gnome (either) Wizard (divination)
Divine: Vuman (war-caster or resilient Con) Cleric (life or tempest)
Support: Hill Dwarf or Wood Elf Druid (moon)

Tempest would give long form damage or Life would give healing. Wizard can force a fail or save with portent and otherwise brings wizard goodies. Druid can be on front lines with Paladin or revert to cast spells.

[Corey]

More than 2 teams are fighting. Hmm. This suggests:

Endurance/sustainability matters a lot.
Getting into heavy melee strategies (Grapple, etc., maybe also Conjure Animals) invites Fireballing by a third team.


Further:

The first point suggests a Moon Druid in the mix, notwithstanding the second point.

It's tempting to hold 3rd-level spell slots in reserve, for Counterspell or an AoE blast as the case may be.

A Draconic Sorcerer has free Mage Armor, resistance to fire, and 6 sorcery points. Plus CON saves. That could be pretty competitive with, for example, a Divination Wizard.

A Transmutation Wizard gets the CON saves while keeping WIS saves. Portent seems like it would be better than that.

An Enchantment Wizard's Instinctive Charm feature could be pretty potent in a battle royale.

Evocation Wizards have pretty reliable cantrip damage. If there are enough teams, that could matter.

[Eldariel]

A few questions:

-What are the victory conditions?

It's a battle royale. Everyone versus everyone. Last team standing wins.


-How many fights are expected?

A single marathon brawl where all the teams walk in alongside spawning monsters, and only one team walks out.


-Are the PCs who are involved told anything about who or what they're going to face?

All teams are built by the same rules (the tournament that took place was 4v4v4 but it could've also been 4v4v4v4 or 4v4v4v4v4). The monsters and magic items that might spawn they have no information on.

[Frogreaver]

By PHB only is that classes and subclasses or is that spells as well?

[Eldariel]

By PHB only is that classes and subclasses or is that spells as well?

For the tourney everything was PHB only. Though it might be more interesting to explore this with a broader set of options too... But let's go with the actual tournament first.

[Corey]

Some more thoughts:

Long-duration conjurations could be super-powerful.
That's not just minions; Call Lightning lasts 10 minutes.
Counterspell and (more realistic to use) Dispel Magic are auto-successes.
3 Level 3 spell slots/character isn't a lot, depending in part on the number of teams and monsters.
Sorcerers can potentially get a 4th.
Keeping concentration is obviously a big deal ...
... but with 10 total spell slots per caster, casting more than 1 concentration spell each in the battle isn't crazy.
This battle of attrition could be the rare example of Sleep being useful at Level 6.

[Eldariel]

Oh yeah, one rule I forgot to write up: everyone gets full HP from all HD. So Barbarian 6 has 12*6 = 72 before Con. Added it to the OP too.

[Frogreaver]

Oh yeah, one rule I forgot to write up: everyone gets full HP from all HD. So Barbarian 6 has 12*6 = 72 before Con. Added it to the OP too.

Ugh. That changes everything.

[Eldariel]

Ugh. That changes everything.

Care to extrapolate on your thoughts? To me it feels like this only reinforced the already-existing trends this challenge sets up where endurance and resource efficiency are key values.

[Frogreaver]

Care to extrapolate on your thoughts? To me it feels like this only reinforced the already-existing trends this challenge sets up where endurance and resource efficiency are key values.

Higher hp totals change the relative values of damage, healing, control, buffs, spike damage, spike healing, etc. In turn that can greatly impact the kinds of abilities i would bring to this. Sorry for assuming that was obvious.

Which made it frustrating that such a big parameter was changed mid stream.

[Tana]

Dragon Sorcerer wins:
Elemental Adept (fire) feat
Tough feat

16 AC base + 5 shielding
Resistence fire
62 hp

Blasting Quicken Empower Fireball + Empower Dragon's breath is around 60 damage per turn that ignores resistence.

[Eldariel]

Dragon Sorcerer wins:
Elemental Adept (fire) feat
Tough feat

16 AC base + 5 shielding
Resistence fire
62 hp

Blasting Quicken Empower Fireball + Empower Dragon's breath is around 60 damage per turn that ignores resistence.

1) Dragon's Breath is not a PHB spell and so not available.
2) You need to build a team, not just a single character.
3) You need to come out on top with multiple teams in the competition. Don't you think you'd be running dry on 3rd level slots if your plan is to Fireball everybody?
4) As you probably know, if you Quicken Fireball you'd need a separate turn to cast another leveled spell.


That said, I found Draconic Sorcerer surprisingly solid too, much for the reasons outlined by Corey:

A Draconic Sorcerer has free Mage Armor, resistance to fire, and 6 sorcery points. Plus CON saves. That could be pretty competitive with, for example, a Divination Wizard.

I'd like to add to that that Draconic Sorc has free, undispellable Mage Armor, conditional resistance to fire, the ability to craft 3rd level slots, and Twin Spell/Subtle Spell (I think those are the best metamagicks for something like this - due to poor starting equipment, Twinned Mage Armor is surprisingly desirable as a buff and obviously being able to Twin debuffs and buffs is convenient).

[Corey]

1) Dragon's Breath is not a PHB spell and so not available.
2) You need to build a team, not just a single character.
3) You need to come out on top with multiple teams in the competition. Don't you think you'd be running dry on 3rd level slots if your plan is to Fireball everybody?
4) As you probably know, if you Quicken Fireball you'd need a separate turn to cast another leveled spell.


That said, I found Draconic Sorcerer surprisingly solid too, much for the reasons outlined by Corey:


I'd like to add to that that Draconic Sorc has free, undispellable Mage Armor, conditional resistance to fire, the ability to craft 3rd level slots, and Twin Spell/Subtle Spell (I think those are the best metamagicks for something like this - due to poor starting equipment, Twinned Mage Armor is surprisingly desirable as a buff and obviously being able to Twin debuffs and buffs is convenient).

Subtle Spell in combat is mainly to avoid counterspelling (perhaps not such a big deal in this format) or to escape grapples. Is that how you see it here?

I guess Twinning a 1st-level spell is faster than casting it twice. And yeah, w/ bad equipment and a likely Moon Druid I can see how multiple Mage Armors could be good.

Oh, wait. Twinning a third-level spell is like getting a new 3rd-level slot for 3 sorcery points. Dispelling Fly or Haste could be pretty efficient if the Dispel also takes away lower level buffs, all the more because having Fly or Haste end on one can have adverse consequences. But if the spell's been cast on two characters, using two slots to Dispel it is painful ...

Of course, some folks think Haste is overrated anyway ...

[Captain Panda]

Hey,
- Characters must be of PHB races and no more than one of each race (so no Drow and Wood Elf for example; only one Elf)


What does that add? That's kind of silly and pointless.




- PHB only character options (feats, spells, etc.) with the exception of abilities that specifically reference monsters (Wildshape, Conjure Animals, etc.)


To each their own, I suppose. Pretty limiting.



- There are four (4) characters in the party that must come from classes as follows (with no duplicate classes):

1. Warrior: Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, or Paladin

2. Arcane: Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard

3. Divine: Cleric, Druid, Paladin, or Ranger

4. Support: Bard, Druid, Monk, Ranger, or Rogue


Not sure what the point of pigeonholing people like that is. Though I think the best choice given those limits is moon druid, lore bard, wizard of some sort, and paladin. I guess it stops the entire party from being druids and bards who took conjure animals as a secret? For this challenge I think that the party with the best summons and crowd control wins, and paladin is there for the aura.



Class-specific stuff and houserules:

- Wizards only have spells from level-ups.


Reasonable.



- Wildshaping or other kind of shapeshifting causes Mage Armor to drop off (the houserule ties it to the form, not the creature)


Stupid rule. If the wizard wastes a full action to mage armor a wildshaped druid in the middle of pvp, where actions really matter and they're dropped right into combat? Why not let them that horrible, horrible mistake? And that's what it is, a horrible, horrible misplay.



- Conjure Animals summons a random creature from the CR chosen (not of lower CR)


Reasonable.



- Conjure Animals can be holistically Dispelled by targeting the caster with the Dispel


Probably the best way from keeping summons from absolutely murdering everything, and even then not really. Counterspell those dispels, bard and wizard! Or just have the druid wildshape and hide underground so they can't be targeted. Granted, the druid player in me balks at this enormous nerf ON TOP of you having the nerf above as well, but meh, I see the reasoning. Wouldn't do it in my own game.



- Magic Missile hits three times (autokilling a downed character)


That's not a houserule, that's just the rule.

[Eldariel]

What does that add? That's kind of silly and pointless.

To each their own, I suppose. Pretty limiting.

Not sure what the point of pigeonholing people like that is. Though I think the best choice given those limits is moon druid, lore bard, wizard of some sort, and paladin. I guess it stops the entire party from being druids and bards who took conjure animals as a secret? For this challenge I think that the party with the best summons and crowd control wins, and paladin is there for the aura.

Reasonable.

Stupid rule. If the wizard wastes a full action to mage armor a wildshaped druid in the middle of pvp, where actions really matter and they're dropped right into combat? Why not let them that horrible, horrible mistake? And that's what it is, a horrible, horrible misplay.

Reasonable.

Probably the best way from keeping summons from absolutely murdering everything, and even then not really. Counterspell those dispels, bard and wizard! Or just have the druid wildshape and hide underground so they can't be targeted. Granted, the druid player in me balks at this enormous nerf ON TOP of you having the nerf above as well, but meh, I see the reasoning. Wouldn't do it in my own game.

That's not a houserule, that's just the rule.

Like I said, this was a hosted tournament that took place in a meatspace where I wasn't present; I merely aided a team with character builds. So I'm the wrong person to answer "why X" - I'm just reporting what the rules were - I disagree with many of them and consider many of them suboptimal. But still, I consider this setup, flawed though some individual points may be, to be an interesting enough exercise to ask the forum masters for their opinion.

EDIT: Though the different race thing does mean that you only get one Variant Human between the whole team, meaning there are some serious choices to make. I found it an interesting restriction actually; deciding where the Vuman went was a significant part of the party construction.

EDIT#2: Also note, action valuation changes significantly in a free-for-all with multiple participants. The offensive actions you take only hurt one team (necessary for victory) so e.g. the action on Mage Armor isn't automatically one action lost or one more action against you since the enemy teams might take it against the other enemy teams too. This is closer to multiplayer valuation where making yourself costly to attack or a poor target can be more valuable than just having the most offensive power.

Tactically you can sort of apply the aspects of MTG card evaluations (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/serious-fun/modern-trapping-classic-style-2011-10-31) - options that punish enemies for attacking you or make attacking you difficult, options to "gain hidden power" so you don't appear that strong but can make your eventual victory more likely (in a way that enemies are not aware of), things that grow more powerful with more targets, etc. are obviously favoured in a battle royale with lots of characters compared to normal play. Part of it is the psychology of making enemies more interested in beating up each other while you reap the spoils.

[Chad.e.clark]

Here is my 2 minute plan:

1. Warrior: Variant Human Ranger (Magic Initiate: Druid for Thorn Whip/ Goodberry) (Spike Growth with 2nd level slots)

2. Arcane: Bard (Lore: level 4 ASI Medium Armor, Magical Secret: Spike Growth and counter spell) or Warlock (Fiend, repelling blast. Counterspell)

3. Divine: Cleric( Nature, thorn whip. Spike Growth)

4. Support: Druid (Moon or Land:Coast, Thorn Whip. Spike Growth/ Conjure Animals).

Laydown multiple Spike Growths if needed. Cheese-grater one enemy at a time via Thorn Whip, Repelling Blast, Moon Druid Wildshape/Conjure Animal grapple. Also, as an aside I am realizing in hindsight: everyone has ability to heal if needed.

[Corey]

Suggestion could be unusually strong as a combat spell -- Suggest to martials that they go attack a third team.

Twinned Suggestion could be even better -- all the more because Sorcerers do not have an embarrassment of concentration riches.

To expand on that last point, I presume a Sorcerer would take among her 7 known leveled spells:

Dispel Magic.
Fly, held in reserve toward the end of the contest, in case it seems like a "We Win" button.
Fireball, in case enemies congregate together.
Mage Armor.
Shield.


That leaves her with only two more spells to take, preferably not of the third level given how many other uses they have for third-level slots.

And one of those might be Sleep, again held in reserve as a possible finisher.

[Frogreaver]

Moon Druid seems very strong for this as well
Dragon Sorcerer as in the end I had to go with uncounterable counterspells and dispel magics.
Vengeance Paladin primarily for the Aura and Bless

I can't decide between Lore Bard and Life Cleric.

I'm also surprised no one has mentioned Heat Metal as one of the most efficient spells for this combat.

[da newt]

I'd try to build a team to avoid being targeted early - it's all about hiding, burrowing, flying, dodging, being invisible etc. My strategy centers on avoiding combat while the other teams agro each other until only one team is left and down on resources, only then does my team join the fight ...

Human nature being what it is, most folks will jump into attacking in order to 'win'




What did you learn from observing this competition play out?

[Corey]

Moon Druid seems very strong for this as well
Dragon Sorcerer as in the end I had to go with uncounterable counterspells and dispel magics.
Vengeance Paladin primarily for the Aura and Bless

I can't decide between Lore Bard and Life Cleric.

I'm also surprised no one has mentioned Heat Metal as one of the most efficient spells for this combat.

Very similar to my thoughts, including the indecision part, although I've been persuaded to be more skeptical of Counterspell. (I guess it could be yet another thing on my list held in reserve for late in the contest.)

Good call on Heat Metal. That said, with starting equipment only, the main opponents in metal armor will be paladins and fighters, if any. But Heat Metal vs. a weapon is still pretty good.

[Corey]

I'd try to build a team to avoid being targeted early - it's all about hiding, burrowing, flying, dodging, being invisible etc. My strategy centers on avoiding combat while the other teams agro each other until only one team is left and down on resources, only then does my team join the fight ...

Human nature being what it is, most folks will jump into attacking in order to 'win'




What did you learn from observing this competition play out?

Yes, staying out of combat early would be best.

I guess a Moon Druid could burrow if the terrain permits. Flying would be a bit harder.

[Frogreaver]

Very similar to my thoughts, including the indecision part, although I've been persuaded to be more skeptical of Counterspell. (I guess it could be yet another thing on my list held in reserve for late in the contest.)

Good call on Heat Metal. That said, with starting equipment only, the main opponents in metal armor will be paladins and fighters, if any. But Heat Metal vs. a weapon is still pretty good.

Clerics will probably have either scale mail or chain mail so should be good targets as well. I anticipate there will be alot of paladins and a few clerics so I don't anticipate there won't be any good targets for it.

One other spell I'd probably bring along is fog cloud. It's fairly non threatening and the heavy obscurement should prevent many spells that require line of sight to reach your team. You can always step outside it to cast your own line of sight requiring spells. Also if you upcast it to a level 3 slot it can cover the entire arena which is pretty cool. You can also spend a turn hiding in it if no one engages you.

[Eldariel]

Clerics will probably have either scale mail or chain mail so should be good targets as well. I anticipate there will be alot of paladins and a few clerics so I don't anticipate there won't be any good targets for it.

One other spell I'd probably bring along is fog cloud. It's fairly non threatening and the heavy obscurement should prevent many spells that require line of sight to reach your team. You can always step outside it to cast your own line of sight requiring spells. Also if you upcast it to a level 3 slot it can cover the entire arena which is pretty cool. You can also spend a turn hiding in it if no one engages you.

Since we got to this point, I'll post what I made for the party, as this touches upon that:
- Vuman Devotion Dexadin: XBE + SS - Defense-style

1. Bless, Command, Cure Wounds, Divine Favor, Protection from Evil and Good [Devotion], Sanctuary [Devotion]
2. Aid, Protection from Poison, Lesser Restoration [Devotion], Zone of Truth [Devotion]

- Hill Dwarf Moon Druid: Alert

1. Fog Cloud, Entangle, Healing Word
2. Spike Growth, Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration
3. Dispel Magic, Conjure Animals, Plant Growth

- Tiefling Lore Bard: Alert

1. Dissonant Whispers, Sleep, Faerie Fire, Healing Word
2. Blindness/Deafness, Shatter, Silence
3. Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Pattern, Conjure Animals, Counterspell [I thought about picking Shield instead of Counterspell here]

- Half-Elf Red Draconic Sorcerer [initially I made it a Divination Wizard but I realised that Portent is less valuable with this many important enemies though a good reserve ability and requires vision, while having 13+Dex base AC on the Sorc and Twin Mage Armor makes the plan way better]: Alert

1. Fog Cloud, Mage Armor, Shield
2. Hold Person
3. Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fireball [Wizard list also included Web and Magic Missile for downed slaying]


The idea was of course to cast Conjure Animals and hope to get something with Blindsight, with the Moon Druid having Giant Constrictor Snake option. Then just abusing Alert and blindsight to gain advantage while enemies have disadvantage and further enabling Hiding (most characters have Stealth proficiency with only Moon Druid lacking it; Half-Elf and Vuman give a skill and Bard can get it naturally and gets +3 skills from Lore to boot). The reason for the ranged Paladin was to make it easier for the Pally to position so that their aura could do maximum work while still being martially useful; and Sacred Weapon + Bless makes for a pretty good XBE/SS user once active and as I mentioned earlier, long-term contribution is more important in a battle royale than short term contribution.

The party realisation in the game was a bit different: the Wizard/Sorc player got replaced with another one and they refused to pick Mage Armor and Fog Cloud, ending up with a Dragonborn Red Draconic Sorc with Haste and Magic Missile (?), and the Bard switched to Half-Elf and switched Counterspell for Aura of Vitality. The Sorc went with Twin Haste as their first line strategy.

The other teams were:

Team 1
Totem Barb
Draconic Sorcerer (unidentified type)
Life Cleric
Valor Bard

Team 2
Frenzy Barb
Wizard (unidentified type, but not an Evoker or a Diviner)
Life Cleric
Valor Bard


Basically, Conjure Animals + Twin Haste + Bless allowed the party to kill the enemy arcanists on round 2. This lead to a 6v4 where the party won eventually at full HP because apparently neither enemy party brought Dispel Magic. Hasted Giant Elk with the easy double Charges or Charge + Stomps and the turn 3+ four-attack Sacred Weapon + Bless Paladin ripped through the parties while Conjure Animals did most of the heavy lifting. Druid rolled Elks for their first Conjure Animals while the Bard rolled Giant Centipedes, both decent rolls. The Moon Druid used both Wildshapes and some level 2 slots for self-healing over the first 4 rounds and then just retreated and let Conjured Animals finish the job.

Really anticlimactic and the magic items or monsters didn't really end up mattering in part because the fight was so one-sided and in part because the DM also ruled that picking up a magic weapon takes an action (as opposed to the free Item interaction) so nobody ever picked it up and the only monster that spawned was ignored. Ultimately the fight took 9 rounds with first the arcanists, then the Clerics, then the Bards and finally the Barbarians being killed in that order.


Honestly, that's a part of why this scenario interest me, because the effortlessly winning strategy feels so obviously flawed. Twin Haste feels suicidal against well-prepared enemies; letting enemies Dispel Conjure Animals AND Haste AND Bless while also causing the Moon Druid to drop a turn (and another Haste AND Bless and cause Paladin drop a turn) with a single casting is just stupid. Of course, this was immaterial because somehow none of the six enemy casters had Dispel so this didn't really get tested and Conjure Animals ran away with the match effortlessly (admittedly it's really nice on the Pally from a pure DPR perspective, letting them shoot twice on both first turns while applying Bless and Sacred Weapon before going to town). They did get Fireballed and Hypnotic Patterned and such but you can position animals within a 60'/60' area so they didn't all get hit (I think there was 1 non-Patterned Elk left after R3)...and as the enemy Fireballers were dead-dead before the end of round 2, that didn't really matter that much. They got one action overall and with Pally aura + Bless, the Concentration and saves were largely successful (the reason the party ended the fight at full HP was animals tanking while they healed up).

So I'm interested in what kind of game and metagame would occur if all the parties (preferably like 4) were actually competently built. It seems to naturally build around Conjure Animals and Dispel Magic, but I'm not certain what the exact ramifications thereof are yet - it feels like the strong options are strong enough that in spite of the cost of subjecting yourself to potential Twinned Dispels, it's worth it.

[Frogreaver]

Since we got to this point, I'll post what I made for the party, as this touches upon that:
- Vuman Devotion Dexadin: XBE + SS - Defense-style

1. Bless, Command, Cure Wounds, Divine Favor, Protection from Evil and Good [Devotion], Sanctuary [Devotion]
2. Aid, Protection from Poison, Lesser Restoration [Devotion], Zone of Truth [Devotion]

- Hill Dwarf Moon Druid: Alert

1. Fog Cloud, Entangle, Healing Word
2. Spike Growth, Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration
3. Dispel Magic, Conjure Animals, Plant Growth

- Tiefling Lore Bard: Alert

1. Dissonant Whispers, Sleep, Faerie Fire, Healing Word
2. Blindness/Deafness, Shatter, Silence
3. Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Pattern, Conjure Animals, Counterspell [I thought about picking Shield instead of Counterspell here]

- Half-Elf Red Draconic Sorcerer [initially I made it a Divination Wizard but I realised that Portent is less valuable with this many important enemies though a good reserve ability and requires vision, while having 13+Dex base AC on the Sorc and Twin Mage Armor makes the plan way better]: Alert

1. Fog Cloud, Mage Armor, Shield
2. Hold Person
3. Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fireball [Wizard list also included Web and Magic Missile for downed slaying]


The idea was of course to cast Conjure Animals and hope to get something with Blindsight, with the Moon Druid having Giant Constrictor Snake option. Then just abusing Alert and blindsight to gain advantage while enemies have disadvantage and further enabling Hiding (most characters have Stealth proficiency with only Moon Druid lacking it; Half-Elf and Vuman give a skill and Bard can get it naturally and gets +3 skills from Lore to boot). The reason for the ranged Paladin was to make it easier for the Pally to position so that their aura could do maximum work while still being martially useful; and Sacred Weapon + Bless makes for a pretty good XBE/SS user once active and as I mentioned earlier, long-term contribution is more important in a battle royale than short term contribution.

The party realisation in the game was a bit different: the Wizard/Sorc player got replaced with another one and they refused to pick Mage Armor and Fog Cloud, ending up with a Dragonborn Red Draconic Sorc with Haste and Magic Missile (?), and the Bard switched to Half-Elf and switched Counterspell for Aura of Vitality. The Sorc went with Twin Haste as their first line strategy.

The other teams were:

Team 1
Totem Barb
Draconic Sorcerer (unidentified type)
Life Cleric
Valor Bard

Team 2
Frenzy Barb
Wizard (unidentified type, but not an Evoker or a Diviner)
Life Cleric
Valor Bard


Basically, Conjure Animals + Twin Haste + Bless allowed the party to kill the enemy arcanists on round 2. This lead to a 6v4 where the party won eventually at full HP because apparently neither enemy party brought Dispel Magic. Hasted Giant Elk with the easy double Charges or Charge + Stomps and the turn 3+ four-attack Sacred Weapon + Bless Paladin ripped through the parties while Conjure Animals did most of the heavy lifting. Druid rolled Elks for their first Conjure Animals while the Bard rolled Giant Centipedes, both decent rolls. The Moon Druid used both Wildshapes and some level 2 slots for self-healing over the first 4 rounds and then just retreated and let Conjured Animals finish the job.

Really anticlimactic and the magic items or monsters didn't really end up mattering in part because the fight was so one-sided and in part because the DM also ruled that picking up a magic weapon takes an action (as opposed to the free Item interaction) so nobody ever picked it up and the only monster that spawned was ignored. Ultimately the fight took 9 rounds with first the arcanists, then the Clerics, then the Bards and finally the Barbarians being killed in that order.


Honestly, that's a part of why this scenario interest me, because the effortlessly winning strategy feels so obviously flawed. Twin Haste feels suicidal against well-prepared enemies; letting enemies Dispel Conjure Animals AND Haste AND Bless while also causing the Moon Druid to drop a turn (and another Haste AND Bless and cause Paladin drop a turn) with a single casting is just stupid. Of course, this was immaterial because somehow none of the six enemy casters had Dispel so this didn't really get tested and Conjure Animals ran away with the match effortlessly (admittedly it's really nice on the Pally from a pure DPR perspective, letting them shoot twice on both first turns while applying Bless and Sacred Weapon before going to town). They did get Fireballed and Hypnotic Patterned and such but you can position animals within a 60'/60' area so they didn't all get hit (I think there was 1 non-Patterned Elk left after R3)...and as the enemy Fireballers were dead-dead before the end of round 2, that didn't really matter that much. They got one action overall and with Pally aura + Bless, the Concentration and saves were largely successful (the reason the party ended the fight at full HP was animals tanking while they healed up).

So I'm interested in what kind of game and metagame would occur if all the parties (preferably like 4) were actually competently built. It seems to naturally build around Conjure Animals and Dispel Magic, but I'm not certain what the exact ramifications thereof are yet - it feels like the strong options are strong enough that in spite of the cost of subjecting yourself to potential Twinned Dispels, it's worth it.

I like your Paladin better than mine. You've probably managed to create the meta paladin.

IMO, the meta revolves around conjure animals and dispel/counterspell along with maintaining high saves like bless+Paladin aura.

The real game changer is trying to find effective level 1 and 2 spells on your Druids/Wizards/Sorcerers/Clerics/Bards. I think that's what would win the encounter.

One spell that's often overlooked that might be great for this exercise is Sleet Storm. Difficult Terrain + High DC Concentration save in a huge AOE.

[Corey]

A few thoughts:

1. It would be nice to get into (Distant) Counterspell range to defend casters against Dispel.

That said, the mirror strategy to that could Distant Counterspell the Distant Counterspell, with no hope of a team's second Counterspeller (if they have one) being within range to keep the chain of reactions going.

2. Questions about the actual event:

A. Were individual Elks really Hasted??

B. If the Druid took enough damage to burn through both Wildshapes, how did he keep concentration on Conjure Animals?

3. If the enemy casters had used Twinned Fly, they could have had safety against Conjure Animals. (At least, I think they could have; what if the Conjures had been placed right over their heads?) But they would have been exceedingly vulnerable to Twinned Dispel.

4. Dispel, Fireball and Firebolt all have ranges of 120 feet or more. A sorcerer could position anywhere ...

5 ... however, somebody centrally located will be able to cast 60' spells to most (not all) parts of the arena.

6. Dispel doesn't have a material component. Twinned Dispel can't also be Subtle, but maybe Dispel doesn't always have to be Twinned.

Counterspell doesn't have a material component either.

[Eldariel]

A few thoughts:

1. It would be nice to get into (Distant) Counterspell range to defend casters against Dispel.

That said, the mirror strategy to that could Distant Counterspell the Distant Counterspell, with no hope of a team's second Counterspeller (if they have one) being within range to keep the chain of reactions going.

Unfortunately Distant Counterspell doesn't work by strict RAW since the trigger for Counterspell is "someone you can see casting a spell within 60'", which is not affected by metamagic.


2. Questions about the actual event:

A. Were individual Elks really Hasted??

Giant Elk Moon Druid


B. If the Druid took enough damage to burn through both Wildshapes, how did he keep concentration on Conjure Animals?

Paladin + Bless; it's really hard to force over DC10 checks on this level especially with fairly decent chances of making Dex saves too.


3. If the enemy casters had used Twinned Fly, they could have had safety against Conjure Animals. (At least, I think they could have; what if the Conjures had been placed right over their heads?) But they would have been exceedingly vulnerable to Twinned Dispel.

Indeed and the party has three Dispel-capable characters plus Hypnotic Pattern and such drop Concentration too.


4. Dispel, Fireball and Firebolt all have ranges of 120 feet or more. A sorcerer could position anywhere ...

5 ... however, somebody centrally located will be able to cast 60' spells to most (not all) parts of the arena.

6. Dispel doesn't have a material component. Twinned Dispel can't also be Subtle, but maybe Dispel doesn't always have to be Twinned.

Counterspell doesn't have a material component either.

[Corey]

Unfortunately Distant Counterspell doesn't work by strict RAW since the trigger for Counterspell is "someone you can see casting a spell within 60'", which is not affected by metamagic.



I'm not seeing that in the rules. E.g., in my go-to source, Counterspell has a range of 60 feet, and the entire text for Distant Metamagic is


Distant Spell.
When you cast a spell that has a range of 5 feet or greater, you can spend 1 sorcery point to double the range of the spell.
When you cast a spell that has a range of touch, you can spend 1 sorcery point to make the range of the spell 30 feet.

What might I have overlooked?

http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/sorcerer
http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/spell:counterspell

[Dork_Forge]

I'm not seeing that in the rules. E.g., in my go-to source, Counterspell has a range of 60 feet, and the entire text for Distant Metamagic is



What might I have overlooked?

http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/sorcerer
http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/spell:counterspell

"Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"

That's from Counterspell, it's separate from the range, I'd generally avoid using the wiki for stuff like this, they reword things frequently, but Counterspell etc. are SRD, so using something like D&D Beyond or Roll20 links works just fine.

[Corey]

"Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"

That's from Counterspell, it's separate from the range, I'd generally avoid using the wiki for stuff like this, they reword things frequently, but Counterspell etc. are SRD, so using something like D&D Beyond or Roll20 links works just fine.

DNDBeyond, two other websites, and my admittedly old physical copy of the PHB all say Counterspell has a range of 60 ft.

That they mention the distance 60 ft. in some other text as well does not contradict the fact that they also list the range (or in DNDBeyond's case "Range/Area") as 60 ft.

If all those sources are wrong, could somebody please point me at the correction?

[Tana]

Since we got to this point, I'll post what I made for the party, as this touches upon that:
- Vuman Devotion Dexadin: XBE + SS - Defense-style

1. Bless, Command, Cure Wounds, Divine Favor, Protection from Evil and Good [Devotion], Sanctuary [Devotion]
2. Aid, Protection from Poison, Lesser Restoration [Devotion], Zone of Truth [Devotion]

- Hill Dwarf Moon Druid: Alert

1. Fog Cloud, Entangle, Healing Word
2. Spike Growth, Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration
3. Dispel Magic, Conjure Animals, Plant Growth

- Tiefling Lore Bard: Alert

1. Dissonant Whispers, Sleep, Faerie Fire, Healing Word
2. Blindness/Deafness, Shatter, Silence
3. Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Pattern, Conjure Animals, Counterspell [I thought about picking Shield instead of Counterspell here]

- Half-Elf Red Draconic Sorcerer [initially I made it a Divination Wizard but I realised that Portent is less valuable with this many important enemies though a good reserve ability and requires vision, while having 13+Dex base AC on the Sorc and Twin Mage Armor makes the plan way better]: Alert

1. Fog Cloud, Mage Armor, Shield
2. Hold Person
3. Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fireball [Wizard list also included Web and Magic Missile for downed slaying]


The idea was of course to cast Conjure Animals and hope to get something with Blindsight, with the Moon Druid having Giant Constrictor Snake option. Then just abusing Alert and blindsight to gain advantage while enemies have disadvantage and further enabling Hiding (most characters have Stealth proficiency with only Moon Druid lacking it; Half-Elf and Vuman give a skill and Bard can get it naturally and gets +3 skills from Lore to boot). The reason for the ranged Paladin was to make it easier for the Pally to position so that their aura could do maximum work while still being martially useful; and Sacred Weapon + Bless makes for a pretty good XBE/SS user once active and as I mentioned earlier, long-term contribution is more important in a battle royale than short term contribution.

The party realisation in the game was a bit different: the Wizard/Sorc player got replaced with another one and they refused to pick Mage Armor and Fog Cloud, ending up with a Dragonborn Red Draconic Sorc with Haste and Magic Missile (?), and the Bard switched to Half-Elf and switched Counterspell for Aura of Vitality. The Sorc went with Twin Haste as their first line strategy.

The other teams were:

Team 1
Totem Barb
Draconic Sorcerer (unidentified type)
Life Cleric
Valor Bard

Team 2
Frenzy Barb
Wizard (unidentified type, but not an Evoker or a Diviner)
Life Cleric
Valor Bard


Basically, Conjure Animals + Twin Haste + Bless allowed the party to kill the enemy arcanists on round 2. This lead to a 6v4 where the party won eventually at full HP because apparently neither enemy party brought Dispel Magic. Hasted Giant Elk with the easy double Charges or Charge + Stomps and the turn 3+ four-attack Sacred Weapon + Bless Paladin ripped through the parties while Conjure Animals did most of the heavy lifting. Druid rolled Elks for their first Conjure Animals while the Bard rolled Giant Centipedes, both decent rolls. The Moon Druid used both Wildshapes and some level 2 slots for self-healing over the first 4 rounds and then just retreated and let Conjured Animals finish the job.

Really anticlimactic and the magic items or monsters didn't really end up mattering in part because the fight was so one-sided and in part because the DM also ruled that picking up a magic weapon takes an action (as opposed to the free Item interaction) so nobody ever picked it up and the only monster that spawned was ignored. Ultimately the fight took 9 rounds with first the arcanists, then the Clerics, then the Bards and finally the Barbarians being killed in that order.


Honestly, that's a part of why this scenario interest me, because the effortlessly winning strategy feels so obviously flawed. Twin Haste feels suicidal against well-prepared enemies; letting enemies Dispel Conjure Animals AND Haste AND Bless while also causing the Moon Druid to drop a turn (and another Haste AND Bless and cause Paladin drop a turn) with a single casting is just stupid. Of course, this was immaterial because somehow none of the six enemy casters had Dispel so this didn't really get tested and Conjure Animals ran away with the match effortlessly (admittedly it's really nice on the Pally from a pure DPR perspective, letting them shoot twice on both first turns while applying Bless and Sacred Weapon before going to town). They did get Fireballed and Hypnotic Patterned and such but you can position animals within a 60'/60' area so they didn't all get hit (I think there was 1 non-Patterned Elk left after R3)...and as the enemy Fireballers were dead-dead before the end of round 2, that didn't really matter that much. They got one action overall and with Pally aura + Bless, the Concentration and saves were largely successful (the reason the party ended the fight at full HP was animals tanking while they healed up).

So I'm interested in what kind of game and metagame would occur if all the parties (preferably like 4) were actually competently built. It seems to naturally build around Conjure Animals and Dispel Magic, but I'm not certain what the exact ramifications thereof are yet - it feels like the strong options are strong enough that in spite of the cost of subjecting yourself to potential Twinned Dispels, it's worth it.

Update for your Sorcerer:

Elemental Adept feat (fire), tough feat for extra Sweet hp.
64 hp with average dice.
Dragon Sorcerer.
16 ac, 21 with shield
Resistence to fire.

Heightein Spell and Empower at 120ft.
Its one shot against arcanists, ALL with disadvantage.
Empowered + Elemental Adept for average 36 damage Fireball + 3. For average 39 damage per fireball. It ignores fire resistence.

Heightein Spell fear against melee and its over.

[Corey]

Elementalist feat (fire), tough feat for extra Sweet hp.
64 hp with average dice.
Dragon Sorcerer.
16 ac, 21 with shield
Resistence to fire.

Heightein Spell and Empower at 120ft.
Its one shot against arcanists, ALL with disadvantage.
Empowered + Elemental Adept for average 36 damage Fireball + 3. For average 39 damage per fireball. It ignores fire resistence.

Heightein Spell fear against melee and its over.

4 sorcery points plus a 3rd-level spell slot is a lot. And you just described a 64-HP arcanist who supposedly can vaporize rival arcanists with 39 point damage hits.

I presume the save DC is 14 or so?

[Tana]

4 sorcery points plus a 3rd-level spell slot is a lot. And you just described a 64-HP arcanist who supposedly can vaporize rival arcanists with 39 point damage hits.

I presume the save DC is 14 or so?
Yes, its, but its a lot of burst AoE damage.
If you defeat the fragile member first, you win.
Convert low level spells into Sorcery Points to regain Sorcery Points.

Sorcerer gains extra hp and free mage armor, with Tough feat, Its 62 average HP and 16 or 15 AC on first round.

DC 14 with disadvantage.

[Corey]

Yes, its, but its a lot of burst AoE damage.
If you defeat the fragile member first, you win.
Convert low level spells into Sorcery Points to regain Sorcery Points.

Sorcerer gains extra hp and free mage armor, with Tough feat, Its 62 average HP and 16 or 15 AC on first round.

DC 14 with disadvantage.

Using your 3 Level 3 slots that way would require 12 sorcery points, only 6 of which you start with. So you'd be left with 4 Level 1 slots, or 2 Level 2 slots, or half-and-half.

(Separate bonus action for each spell slot you convert. Not an issue if you're using Level 2s; slight delay if you're using Level 1s.)

Of course, you do also have your cantrips, at what I presume is +3 CHA.

[Tana]

Using your 3 Level 3 slots that way would require 12 sorcery points, only 6 of which you start with. So you'd be left with 4 Level 1 slots, or 2 Level 2 slots, or half-and-half.

(Separate bonus action for each spell slot you convert. Not an issue if you're using Level 2s; slight delay if you're using Level 1s.)

Of course, you do also have your cantrips, at what I presume is +3 CHA.

3 Giant Fireball + friendss damage? Can the enemy party survive 3 rounds?

After that, Expedius Retread for dash as bonus action for Firebolt that ignores resistence and deals extra damage(elemental Adept and Elemental Afinity), for average 16 damage at 120ft

[Dork_Forge]

DNDBeyond, two other websites, and my admittedly old physical copy of the PHB all say Counterspell has a range of 60 ft.

That they mention the distance 60 ft. in some other text as well does not contradict the fact that they also list the range (or in DNDBeyond's case "Range/Area") as 60 ft.

If all those sources are wrong, could somebody please point me at the correction?

The range is irrelevant, the trigger is a creature casting a spell within 60 feet of you, which is listed in the casting time. Distant spell can increase the range, but it has no effect on the trigger condition of the spell.

To put it another way, Distant Spell takes effect when you cast a spell with a range of 5ft or greater. It doesn't work because you're unable to cast Counterspell to begin with unless the creature is already within trigger range, which is also the range of the spell, but they are not the same thing.

[Corey]

The range is irrelevant, the trigger is a creature casting a spell within 60 feet of you, which is listed in the casting time. Distant spell can increase the range, but it has no effect on the trigger condition of the spell.

To put it another way, Distant Spell takes effect when you cast a spell with a range of 5ft or greater. It doesn't work because you're unable to cast Counterspell to begin with unless the creature is already within trigger range, which is also the range of the spell, but they are not the same thing.

Ohhhh. So you're saying that part of the condition for you being allowed to cast it is that what you're counterspelling is within 60 feet of you. That makes sense. Sorry for my obtuseness.

[Corey]

3 Giant Fireball + friendss damage? Can the enemy party survive 3 rounds?

After that, Expedius Retread for dash as bonus action for Firebolt that ignores resistence and deals extra damage(elemental Adept and Elemental Afinity), for average 16 damage at 120ft

Are you assuming that each enemy party hangs out together within Fireball range of each other for several rounds, without doing anything at range to seriously threaten you in return?

Good news for your plan is that there's probably only one Counterspeller per team, who as per the discussion above likely will not be in range to bother your sorcerer too much.

Also good news is that of the classes who do well on DEX saves, only Bards and Barbarians are likely to be represented.

[Tana]

Are you assuming that each enemy party hangs out together within Fireball range of each other for several rounds, without doing anything at range to seriously threaten you in return?

Good news for your plan is that there's probably only one Counterspeller per team, who as per the discussion above likely will not be in range to bother your sorcerer too much.

Also good news is that of the classes who do well on DEX saves, only Bards and Barbarians are likely to be represented.
No, Im assuming that the most fragile enemy is easily dead + party damage. Its over or nearly over on 3 turns.
Barbarians and Rogues, scorching ray, but they are not a threat.

Counterspell is 60ft range, fireball 150ft.
A fragile arcanist without mage armor and reaction shield Spell... 😳.

[Corey]

No, Im assuming that the most fragile enemy is easily dead + party damage. Its over or nearly over on 3 turns.
Barbarians and Rogues, scorching ray, but they atento a threat.


I presume you're only talking about one of the enemy groups?

And you're also assuming that they don't do anything to bother you with, for example, a WIS or INT save spell?

On the plus side -- if they drop Conjure Animals on you, you can probably afford to Fireball yourself to get rid of the critters, given your fire resistance. And you of course wouldn't spend sorcery points to do so.




Counterspell is 60ft range, fireball 150ft.


Yes, that's something of a problem. Standing near the middle of the arena to be in Counterspell range of the corners can cause other difficulties.




A fragile arcanist without mage armor and reaction shield Spell... 😳.

Not sure what you're talkig about there, since most of the discussion has involved other teams have draconic sorcerers too.

Utility lore bards, admittedly, probably won't have Mage Armor, also they will at least have DEX saves.

[Tana]

I presume you're only talking about one of the enemy groups?

And you're also assuming that they don't do anything to bother you with, for example, a WIS or INT save spell?

On the plus side -- if they drop Conjure Animals on you, you can probably afford to Fireball yourself to get rid of the critters, given your fire resistance. And you of course wouldn't spend sorcery points to do so.




Yes, that's something of a problem. Standing near the middle of the arena to be in Counterspell range of the corners can cause other difficulties.



Not sure what you're talkig about there, since most of the discussion has involved other teams have draconic sorcerers too.

Utility lore bards, admittedly, probably won't have Mage Armor, also they will at least have DEX saves.
Conjure Animals against Dragon Sorcerer?
Conjure Animals is a concentration Spell. The Druid Will be damaged and lose his concentration pretty easily. Conjure Animals is overrated, you cant choose the animal and the op is buffing It.

Dragon Sorcerer ok, Its pretty tank, other arcanist on middle of the arena, without mage armor and Shield? He is dead on first turn. Its not a good ideia.
Its a suicide Idea.

[Corey]

Conjure Animals against Dragon Sorcerer?
Conjure Animals is a concentration Spell. The Druid Will be damaged and lose his concentration pretty easily. Conjure Animals is overrated, you cant choose the animal and the op is buffing It.

Dragon Sorcerer ok, Its pretty tank, other arcanist on middle of the arena, without mage armor and Shield? He is dead on first turn. Its not a good ideia.
Its a suicide Idea.

If you're shooting at one team's Druid or Bard, then you may not also be shooting at any team's Sorcerer.

And by the way, 8 draft horses (to pick a monster not usually thought of as the best) are attempting 16d4 + 32 damage at +6 to hit. I presume you're reacting with Shield, so about 1/4 of that might get through, which is about 18 damage per round. Four rounds of that and you're both dead and also out of the spell slots you were reserving for something other than Fireballs.

[Frogreaver]

My issue with the fireball strategy is that there are will be life clerics out there.

That said a light cleric + dragon sorc + lore bard can throw 3 fireballs a turn. That’s pretty impressive. If I was going for a fireball tactic it would probably look something like that.

[Corey]

My issue with the fireball strategy is that there are will be life clerics out there.

That said a light cleric + dragon sorc + lore bard can throw 3 fireballs a turn. That’s pretty impressive. If I was going for a fireball tactic it would probably look something like that.

A quick-kill strategy isn't entirely crazy.

But even if you take one group out quickly, you'll have expended resources before fighting the next one. And they'll probably have spread out to get out of AoE zones. So if you have a Fireball strategy then you need a single-target focus strategy to follow it up.

And if I'm the third team, I'll have dropped a lot of Conjured Animals on the sorc blaster before he even finishes off his team's first opponent.

[Frogreaver]

A quick-kill strategy isn't entirely crazy.

But even if you take one group out quickly, you'll have expended resources before fighting the next one. And they'll probably have spread out to get out of AoE zones. So if you have a Fireball strategy then you need a single-target focus strategy to follow it up.

And if I'm the third team, I'll have dropped a lot of Conjured Animals on the sorc blaster before he even finishes off his team's first opponent.

Or I wait till for your team and the other to fight and then drop the fireballs on the loser. But I don't really think either scenario is likely. It's just not a great assumption that any team is going to get to stand back unscathed while the other 2 teams engage.

[Hael]

My experience with these sorts of things is that movement is OP.. a party that can all hide, or a party that can all fly or a party that all have very high movement speed tends to win.

This is bc they can force confrontation between the other groups and escape unscathed and then come in for mop up.

[Frogreaver]

My experience with these sorts of things is that movement is OP.. a party that can all hide, or a party that can all fly or a party that all have very high movement speed tends to win.

This is bc they can force confrontation between the other groups and escape unscathed and then come in for mop up.

IMO, the problems are with those tactics are:
1. The arena is small. Most ranged attacks can hit most of it, if not all of it, limiting the impact of high movement speed. Also, it's not like every character you can create even has the option for high movement speed. There will be some slow ones given the nature of this competition.
2. I don't think there's any way to give a whole party flight in this competition, and even if there was it would be magical, and dispel magic has a nice range and falling damage still hurts at this level.
3. There's no legitimate way for the whole party to hide.

[Eldariel]

I don't think kiting for the whole team is viable. As said, it's not possible to get everyone away (two could fly, one could burrow, one would be left stranded) and even if it were, the only one who has any shot at staying safe is the burrower; it's not worth using Concentration and level 3 slots just to stay away from Concentration and level 3 slots with some chance (there are flying forms on Conjure Animals list so even that's not guaranteed).

However, hiding within Fog Cloud most certainly is viable; level 2 Fog Cloud is available and one of those "not level 3 slots that can be game defining" and if enemies begin dispelling your level 2 Fog Clouds, well, you're very happy. This is the primary reason I'd prefer Fog Cloud over Sleet Storm; while Sleet Storm has sweet effects, it takes a level 3 slot and you'll most certainly be able to find good use for all of those anyways.


As for Fireball, it's certainly a good spell here especially on a Draconic Sorc. But I don't think it's viable as a plan of its own and I don't think Heighten Spell is worth it; for one, things like Bless, Bardic Inspiration and Aura of Protection kinda nerf disadvantage since they're not affected and 3 sorcery points just for slightly higher damage on one Fireball is a good way to run out of gas before you get to the final fight and then you're fighting against a whole team where your own arcanist is down to Flaming Spheres and Firebolts. And thanks to full HP from HD, even a Sorc will be able to have 60 HP (and if your Fireballs are threatening, anyone positioned centrally can Counterspell them regardless of where you cast them from; the arena is small enough that 60' radius in the middle will cover the whole area).

Also, if the enemy is engaging your team, Evoker is the only caster that can actually blast e.g. all the Conjured Animals without significant friendly fire. Taking Elemental Adept would make this even worse; if you get surrounded by animals, you can either just blast 3-4 of them or blast yourself for full damage as well.

Empower Spell is reasonable; it's fairly economical and the damage increase is solid. Twin Spell seems super-efficient though Twinned Haste specifically feels suboptimal. Twinned Dispels feel godlike though. Subtle feels good for the endgame; if you manage to survive until only two teams are remaining, that is when you can break out Subtle Counterspells on their Dispels while you Conjure Animals the **** outta them.

[Ogre Mage]

I would run --

1. Vengeance Paladin 6 (aura, bless, hold person, misty step)
2. Moon druid 6 (wildshape, conjure animals, hold person, dispel magic, heat metal)
3. Draconic sorcerer 6 (twinned spell, subtle spell, shield, suggestion, fireball, counterspell, dispel magic)
4. Life cleric 6 (bless, cure wounds, healing word, spiritual weapon, hold person, dispel magic, spirit guardians)

[Corey]

I would run --

1. Vengeance Paladin 6 (aura, bless, hold person, misty step)
2. Moon druid 6 (wildshape, conjure animals, hold person, dispel magic, heat metal)
3. Draconic sorcerer 6 (twinned spell, subtle spell, shield, suggestion, fireball, counterspell, dispel magic)
4. Life cleric 6 (bless, cure wounds, healing word, spiritual weapon, hold person, dispel magic, spirit guardians)

I think we're very close to consensus on the first three. And your option for #4 is one of the favored ones.

I'm leaning toward Life Cleric right now as well. Those 60 extra HP of non-spell healing could help a lot

[Frogreaver]

I think we're very close to consensus on the first three. And your option for #4 is one of the favored ones.

I'm leaning toward Life Cleric right now as well. Those 60 extra HP of non-spell healing could help a lot

IMO, the devotion paladin build using SS posted earlier seems better than a vengance paladin.

Life Cleric for the extra hp is solid. Still hard to pass up a Lore Bard for Bardic Inspiration saving throw bonuses, more counterspelling and either more fireballs or more conjure animals. I'm not sure whether more hp or better saves will win this one.

[Captain Panda]

Gave it a little thought. Dropped paladin for a fighter, just so that people running away is less of an issue.

Lineup:
1. V. Human: Sharpshooter/crossbow expert battlemaster fighter. Purely there to provide potential big bursts of damage at range.
2. Tiefling: Divination Wizard. Forcing things to fail saves (or make them) is nice. Here to counterspell and control enemies, mainly.
3. Wood elf Moon Druid. There to conjure animals and burrow away. If that fails, moon druid shapeshifting is still solid.
4. Half elf Lore Bard. Secrets are counterspell and conjure animals.

Two casts of conjure animals, which gives some very good high roll potential for extremely solid beasts. Moon druids, even if the attempts to dispel the summons go through, are still a very nice bag of all sorts of tricks. The wizard, bard, and druid can all heat metal and ruin the day of any paladin or other heavily armored character. The fighter can action surge and use precision dice to ensure hits to focus down an especially dangerous target.

Probably a pretty good team, here.

[Thunderous Mojo]

The 6th level limitation is a huge blow to Monks and Rogues....increase it up to 7th level and this whole exercise changes due to Evasion.

Round 1: Illusionary Fog Cloud via Silent Image..the idea is to get enough space to obscure the party...a 15' cube is sufficient.

(Given the arena size constraints Gust of Wind is not a bad spell...it counters Fog Cloud and offers limited control....I would expect some caster in this battle to have this spell.)

Cleric and Druid both use Meld into Stone...under the cover of the illusion.

If possible the remaining party members enter into a Rope Trick and pull up the rope. If this is not possible, do so on round 2. Hopefully under the cover of the illusion.

While it is possible Dispel Magic/Counterspell might be used on Round 1, I think there is a good chance that doesn't happen.

The party rides out the fracas whilst multiple Fear, Conjure Animals, and Fireball spells resolve themselves.

[Eldariel]

Re@Paladin vs. Fighter:
I think you definitely want the Paladin over the Fighter. While Fighter gives nice burst of damage (note, you don't need to go Vuman Fighter; you can give Vuman elsewhere due to Fighter's bonus ASI on 6) and solid at-will damage, Paladin helps the whole party not only maintain Concentration (which is really important since you don't really want to spend your only feat on Res: Con) but also gets to Concentrate on Bless (further augmenting attacks and saves) and most importantly, helps with saves. AOE save-or-X spells are pretty darn strong and getting hit by those drops Concentration just as surely as getting damaged. Further, something like Fireball can of course force higher-than-DC-10 saves on a failed save; succeeding the save is really nice. As is getting more spells; Command is a really good spell against any team without a Paladin and a non-Concentration effect the Pally has access to for instance (there's also Sanctuary, which is pretty nice).

And Devotion Pally actually becomes a fairly beastly at-will damage dealer even ranged: once you have Sacred Weapon and Bless active, you're attacking at +4+1d4 for 1d6+13 three times a turn. Ranger could do +3 for 1d6+13+1d6, Fighter could do +4 for 1d6+14 (via. ASI +2 Dex) and Action Surge and maneuvers, or Shield as backup (via. Eldritch Knight). Probably just maneuvers. So the Pally at-will is pretty darn solid actually.

The fact that the Pally takes some turns to get started isn't that big of a deal since Battle Royale is naturally slower-paced since nobody wants to be the one drawing everyone's attention in the start; they're guarding the party vs. spell incursion and further them being ranged lets them position so that their aura can do maximum work.

Re@Life Cleric over arcanist:
I kinda like the Life Cleric angle. It occurred to me too; Life Cleric is the only healing effect in addition to Paladin's Lay on Hands that gives enough healing to be worth it. Remember, downing creatures doesn't suffice, you need to kill them lest they just get yoyoed. This means Magic Missile, Conjure Animals or similar. With the rule that everyone has full HP from HD, double HP killing is functionally impossible so you have to go through the death gate for every downed character and wherever this fails, again thanks to the high base HP, Life Cleric could pop 30 HP for everyone which is a lot.


A quick comparison for the third caster slot, which is between:
- Diviner Wizard
- Evoker Wizard
- Enchanter Wizard
- Draconic Sorcerer (with some leeway in metamagic)
- Life Cleric

I don't think other Clerics offer as much as Life Cleric so there's that. Important stuff the Cleric can do:
- Silence
- Spirit Guardians (though it's surprisingly weak vs. Conjure Animals since you need them to start in range to take damage and generally they have enough movement to hit you anyways; also weak vs. vision denial)
- Dispel
- Hold Person
- Command
- Bless
- Blindness
- Mass Healing Word
- Healing Word
- Sanctuary

Important stuff the arcanists can do:
- Fog Cloud
- Fireball
- Dispel Magic
- Counterspell
- Blindness
- Mage Armor
- Magic Missile (to finish characters off; surprisingly important)
- Hold Person
- Web
- Hideous Laughter


The reason I went with an arcanist was for Fog Cloud specifically. In general, Arcanist has more "gotta stop this"-level Concentration spells on lower levels and tools for the lategame Dispel wars in Counterspell (and Subtle Spell). Meanwhile, Cleric has more non-Concentration goodies for when you aren't getting Dispel-spammed and yeah, those sweet 30 point heals for if things get rough and you are getting close to downed. If I weren't going with the Fog Cloud plan and didn't want to Mage Armor my casters, I would probably lean towards the Cleric. Two channel divinities is huge here and up to 120 points of healing is insane. Lacking the solid enemy damaging spells (remember, Core Cleric doesn't have Toll the Dead either) is a downside but one you can live with.

@Rope Trick
That's a great call. It's a level 2 spell and one enemies have to dispel if they want to get to you. In this case you'd have to use real Fog Cloud since the DM basically ruled that Illusions are useless, but that doesn't change much. I would probably not bother with Meld into Stone; the spell is solid but it seems redundant and it seems like you'd want to conserve as much resources as possible for when you need to finish off a party; like in the actual tournament, it's fully possible that the winning team emerges largely unscathed except few slots blown and you've still got a fight at your hands.

[Hael]

I don't think kiting for the whole team is viable. As said, it's not possible to get everyone away (two could fly, one could burrow, one would be left stranded) and even if it were, the only one who has any shot at staying safe is the burrower; it's not worth using Concentration and level 3 slots just to stay away from Concentration and level 3 slots with some chance (there are flying forms on Conjure Animals list so even that's not guaranteed)..

It doesnt have to be a perfect getaway. Kiting or hiding or flying can be used at any moment where an opportunity arises, and typically it happens early and often. The teams that don't have these options, end up stuck engaged with each other.

Teams that have a great deal of getaway or safe zones (like eg rope trick) often have very simple win conditions. It can be as simple as taking out the two characters that can dispel magic, or the one that has high passive perception or the one ranged archer.

On that note, under no circumstance should anyone be melee only. So things like paladins don't make any sense to me. You are immensely better off with 4 battlemaster archers that can one turn burst the healing or CC or ranged dpr and keep running. Sure they can't guarantee they will always be safe, but thats not the point. The melee player will spend most of his time swinging at something that are distractions, or worse, not doing anything at all.

Drow are going to be very good here, with darkness orbs or faerie fire.

[Frogreaver]

Rope Trick is a great plan. It's the one way I could see a team potentially hide. Of course, i suppose it would be possible for opponents to cut the rope leaving half the enemy team on the ground and half in the extradimensional space. Though this can probably be countered by using 5ft ropes. It's also interesting that as long as the rope is down enemies can also climb up it. So it's probably essential that you cast that spell in the cover of a fogcloud to draw less attention. It's also not perfectly clear if rope trick can be dispelled. All the spell does is create an entrance to an extradimensional space. Dispel Magic says choose one creature, object or magical effect within range. An extradimensional space wouldn't really qualify as being in a 120ft range. I guess it's up to our house DM @Eldariel on this one.

[Ogre Mage]

IMO, the devotion paladin build using SS posted earlier seems better than a vengance paladin.

Life Cleric for the extra hp is solid. Still hard to pass up a Lore Bard for Bardic Inspiration saving throw bonuses, more counterspelling and either more fireballs or more conjure animals. I'm not sure whether more hp or better saves will win this one.

I seriously considered the lore bard and it would be a solid choice. I went with the life cleric because of the lore bard's lack of defense. AC is very important in PvP. That is a strong point for the life cleric and a weak one for the lore bard. The bard also does not have key defensive spells like shield. I suppose the lore bard could start with the moderately armored feat, but that is one less precious feat spot which could have been filled with alert, lucky or warcaster.

[Eldariel]

It doesnt have to be a perfect getaway. Kiting or hiding or flying can be used at any moment where an opportunity arises, and typically it happens early and often. The teams that don't have these options, end up stuck engaged with each other.

Teams that have a great deal of getaway or safe zones (like eg rope trick) often have very simple win conditions. It can be as simple as taking out the two characters that can dispel magic, or the one that has high passive perception or the one ranged archer.

On that note, under no circumstance should anyone be melee only. So things like paladins don't make any sense to me. You are immensely better off with 4 battlemaster archers that can one turn burst the healing or CC or ranged dpr and keep running. Sure they can't guarantee they will always be safe, but thats not the point. The melee player will spend most of his time swinging at something that are distractions, or worse, not doing anything at all.

Drow are going to be very good here, with darkness orbs or faerie fire.

This is precisely why I'm suggesting ranged Paladin. This enables the Pally to position so that the Aura of Protection provides maximum value and they get to use their Concentration, which would be wasted with a Fighter (Eldritch Knight 6 doesn't really have anything of particular value, Battlemaster offers nice burst but it seems to me like it's not nearly as much as +3 to saves and Bless from a Pally vs. enemy teams that are likely to contain 3ish casters). Helps with Concentration, saves vs. Hypnotic Patterns/Hideous Laughters/Hold Persons/Entangles/Webs/Fireballs/Blindnesses/Commands/Dissonant Whispers/Greases/Faerie Fires/etc. and

[Corey]

Agreed that melee-only characters have little appeal, because because of the difficulty in reliably reaching opponents and because it might be tempting for a third team to AoE a melee fight.

Martials should be good archers.

Issue regarding Paladins -- do you really want your team clustering w/in a 10-ft radius to get the boost to saves?

[Frogreaver]

Agreed that melee-only characters have little appeal, because because of the difficulty in reliably reaching opponents and because it might be tempting for a third team to AoE a melee fight.

Martials should be good archers.

Issue regarding Paladins -- do you really want your team clustering w/in a 10-ft radius to get the boost to saves?

Do you really want to be spread out enough to not have to worry about AOE's - many of which are quite large. Seems to me that would make it far easier for an opposing team to pick off a single character.

[Corey]

Do you really want to be spread out enough to not have to worry about AOE's - many of which are quite large. Seems to me that would make it far easier for an opposing team to pick off a single character.

That's one of the big strategic tradeoffs. The reasons for clustering together do add up.

Paladin class feature.
Life Cleric (if used) subclass feature.
Range on Bless.
Range on heals.
Range on various spells against enemies if the caster of same is centrally located.


On the other hand, such clustering and positioning might encourage other groups to kill your team first.

My first thought is that it might be best to cluster near a corner.

I'd also consider the extreme strategy of having the Druid cast Conjure Animals and then casting Invisibility on the Druid to protect the conjuration (assuming the terrain doesn't allow for burrowing).

[Eldariel]

Issue regarding Paladins -- do you really want your team clustering w/in a 10-ft radius to get the boost to saves?

I agree, that's a relevant consideration, but within the scope of this challenge, I think Aura of Protection is great. If even one other character is within range, incidentally or otherwise, it's worth it. Generally the math is that you don't want to cluster vs. AOE damage if you could otherwise have half the characters avoid the effect with different positioning, but for effects with no effect on save, it can outperform that.

Largely, it's a matter of the character and the effect in question though; Pally aura is relatively worth more with a higher bonus (if you have 25% chance of failing a save otherwise, it goes down to 10% for instance) and doubly so if there's a source of disadvantage on the save.

One thing to keep in mind that the premiere attack spell on this level involves 8 attack rolls so in that sense bonus on Concentration checks is in many cases preferable to avoiding AOE. The only real AOEs you can avoid that you care about are Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Web, Entangle, and less impactful stuff like Faerie Fire. And of those spells Hypnotic Pattern and Fireball are large enough that actually avoiding them hitting more than 2 targets is incredibly difficult, to the point that you're probably sacrificing a lot of strategic positioning to achieve that and leaving characters hanging.

Another thing to keep in mind is that you have the option of vision denial, in which case incidental AOE is the only thing you need to plan for and that's something where you just want as many bonuses as you can get.


I'd also consider the extreme strategy of having the Druid cast Conjure Animals and then casting Invisibility on the Druid to protect the conjuration (assuming the terrain doesn't allow for burrowing).

Rope Trick or Meld into Stone would work, but Invisibility is just extra food for Dispel. Bizarrely, Dispel Magic doesn't require sight in spite of targeting the creature so they'd just get to Dispel the Conjure Animals and the Invisibility with a single casting. Unless the Druid has a chance to take the Hide action I suppose. Now, dropping a couple of Conjure Animals from Druid and Lore Bard and having the Wizard or Lore Bard cast Rope Trick and haul 'em up seems pretty solid. One huge point in the favour of Wizard over Sorc, btw.

[Vafos]

Remember that the druid can't choose the creature.
It can be 8 powerful fishes.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRLwo5pyYKW95GTW-yox9h3A25viexsCg1RYQ&usqp=CAU

[Eldariel]

Remember that the druid can't choose the creature.
It can be 8 powerful fishes.

Covered in the OP. Random roll on the chosen CR list with no creatures that are dysfunctional in the environment. So this is actually not the case.

[Vafos]

Covered in the OP. Random roll on the chosen CR list with no creatures that are dysfunctional in the environment. So this is actually not the case.
8 rats. :smallbiggrin: You also connot choose the CR. The OP is buffing it.

[Eldariel]

8 rats. :smallbiggrin: You also connot choose the CR. The OP is buffing it.

Well, for the purposes of this thread, as well as for what I'd assume is the case in most games, that simply doesn't happen. It's a good way to get the players to walk out of the table and have no game.

[Corey]

8 rats. :smallbiggrin: You also connot choose the CR. The OP is buffing it.

This is a thread about a competition with a particular set of rules, including a houseruled NERF to Conjure Animals and what you claim is a houseruled BUFF as well.

Your comments about DMs in general, even if otherwise correct, are irrelevant. If you want to make the point in the "strongest builds" thread, through as many not-yet-banned screennames you can use, that's your privilege, or at least it's just a matter between you and the mods.

But in this thread, pretending the DM will do something different than what the DM has declared they will do is just stupid.

[Vafos]

This is a thread about a competition with a particular set of rules, including a houseruled NERF to Conjure Animals and what you claim is a houseruled BUFF as well.

Your comments about DMs in general, even if otherwise correct, are irrelevant. If you want to make the point in the "strongest builds" thread, through as many not-yet-banned screennames you can use, that's your privilege, or at least it's just a matter between you and the mods.

Still, the caster can't choose the creature. It can be 8 rats.
https://cdn.branchcms.com/gaenDO8Jz4-1397/images/blog/rodent-infestation-in-the-home-2.jpg

[Eldariel]

Still, the caster can't choose the creature. It can be 8 rats.

Except Rat is not CR 1/4 and the OP specifically states that the creature is randomly chosen from the CR 1/4 pool if the player picks CR 1/4.

[Vafos]

Except Rat is not CR 1/4 and the OP specifically states that the creature is randomly chosen from the CR 1/4 pool if the player picks CR 1/4.

Eight Beasts of Challenge rating 1/4 or lower It's buffed by the OP.

But I'm ok with the OP, randomly choose
8 Cows. :biggrin:

http://c.files.bbci.co.uk/18532/production/_110543699_cows.jpg
I win!

[Thunderous Mojo]

Eight Beasts of Challenge rating 1/4 or lower It's buffed by the OP.

But I'm ok with the OP, randomly choose
8 Cows. :biggrin:

http://c.files.bbci.co.uk/18532/production/_110543699_cows.jpg
I win!
Whilst I'm getting a vibe that puts me in mind of a certain page from Monster Manual...this post made me laugh.

As a DM that has used cattle stampedes before, Cows are a beefy summons; especially if the Shove Aside and Overun options from the DMG are allowed into play.

A Cattle Stampede , (if these options are allowed), can be quite adept at breaking up defensive formations.



I would probably not bother with Meld into Stone; the spell is solid but it seems redundant and it seems like you'd want to conserve as much resources as possible for when you need to finish off a party; like in the actual tournament, it's fully possible that the winning team emerges largely unscathed except few slots blown and you've still got a fight at your hands.

Conservation of resources is an important consideration, I agree.

In this scenario, I view Meld Into Stone as playing a similar role as Castling plays in Chess. A player is moving one of their 'pieces' largely out of harm's way, (admittedly the Shatter spell can pose a problem), and the entombed character can likely still contribute something to the ongoing battle.

The Preserve Life Channel Divinity power only requires the beneficiaries to be within 30' of the Life Cleric, no line of sight is required. The "Clear Path to Target" rules in the PHB, technically, apply to spellcasting...and a Channel Divinity power isn't an example of spellcasting.

A DM might very well let a Life Cleric heal their comrades, whilst the Life Cleric takes their version of a dirt nap.

[Vafos]

in a world that fly, they launch powerful fireballs, multiples attacks, powerful auras.
will we be defeated by cows?

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/images/ic/480xn/p064kwy5.jpg

[Eldariel]

Whilst I'm getting a vibe that puts me in mind of a certain page from Monster Manual...this post made me laugh.

As a DM that has used cattle stampedes before, Cows are a beefy summons; especially if the Shove Aside and Overun options from the DMG are allowed into play.

A Cattle Stampede , (if these options are allowed), can be quite adept at breaking up defensive formations.

You should always summon things within 20' of target so if you get a charger, it can charge. 8 cows all hitting for 3d6+4 at +6 is legitimately terrifying, as with Elks or even Panthers (Pounce is worse than Charge of course, but it's still decent). Boar is the empty roll at +3 for 2d6+1 on charge and +3 for 1d6+1 thereafter. But that's still not horrible, just less ridiculous than most of the options.