What would winning an ambush against Team Evil accomplish?

[Hurkyl]

Alternate title: what does it take to win?

Suppose the Order of the Stick were allowed to carry out their ambush and even manage to kill Xykon and drive off Redcloak. What have they even achieved by such a victory?

It seems to me the result is a month's delay as Xykon regenerates, and compelling Team Evil to take their siege somewhat more seriously (and clue them in to something they didn't realize they didn't realize about the trap). So winning the ambush would actively make things worse if they don't have a pretty amazing plan about how to use that month.

To be anything more than an inconvenience for Team Evil, I think at a minimum Redcloak needs to be killed, which I suspect is a blind spot for any of their opponents that are not part of the Sapphire Guard. But is that even enough to eliminate the threat of The Dark One's plan? Probably need to destroy the Crimson Mantle. Is that enough?

Still doesn't do anything about the problem of an epic sorcerer lich who knows about the gate and is interested in acquiring it and will do who knows what with it. They know about the existence of Xykon's Astral Fortress so that's a huge leg up. But it seems there's still a heckuva lot to do to turn a successful ambush into an actual victory for the good guys.

What sort of thing involved in actually destroying an epic lich? I've never played through such a story line before.

[Fyraltari]

If Xykon's body is destroyed and he regenerates, it'll be around Redcloak's neck, so Team Evil is over.

Of course the Order doesn't know that but their objevtive would be capture Redcloak so they can have another go at convincing him and destroying the phylactery around his neck.

[brian 333]

Like the topic, but there are a lot of 'depends' in it.

Depends on whether or not The Author gave us the Astral Fortress as a red hering or as the scene of an epic climactic battle.

Depends if they capture RC or he escapes. If RC dies and leaves the OotS in possession of the mantle, then it depends on whether its magic could be used for the forth color on new rift seals.

There are more. I'm sure you already have your own list.

[Precure]

Roy will prove himself to his father and sister.

[Rad]

The astral fortress was a huge waste of time because it only contains the fake philactery crafted by the hobgoblin master artisan. It could come into play if team evil decided to use it for a last stand but I doubt it, there are better sceneries for the final fight.

[dmc91356]

To me, if they manage to "kill" Xykon, Redcloak has no choice but to then destroy the philactery as, otherwise, Xykon will know for 100% that Redcloak is lying to him when he starts to regenerate somewhere other than where he stashed the fake one that he did not know was fake. At that point, target #1 for Xykon is Redcloak.

Thus, even if OOTS has no clue about the philactery, which I am not betting on given that they have seen Xykon come back from the "dead" once already, it really won't matter as it would be the end of either Xykon or Redcloak, thus the end of the plan for all practical purposes and, if Xykon snuffs Redcloak, the end of this world most likely, the end of the comic and therefore unlikely to happen that way. If Redcloak destroys the philactery, then at that point he might be more inclined to really think about Durkon's/Thor's offer.

[King of Nowhere]

Also, don't forget that destroying xykon would allow looting him. The comic downplays this part, but really, 50% of your power comes from your gear

[Ionathus]

But it seems there's still a heckuva

No no, the huecuva got destroyed back at Azure City (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html).

[Rad]

Back on topic, team evil is at the moment the only active threat to the gates (and then to the rifts, and then to the gods). It is unclear if removing them would help much in changing the gods' minds about destroying the world and even if it did it would be temporary. Still, if they are not stopped the gods will destroy the world in minutes, so stopping them (or at least stalling them as Serini did) just has to be done.

What a win could accomplish though would be to change *Redcloak*'s mind, if he survives and Xykon does not. Finding a suitable arcane caster for the ritual is hard and if he lost Xykon he'd be forced to abandon the current approach to the Plan and think of something different, which he now refuses to do. He might be more willing to listen to Durkon if he didn't think he's about to win within days anymore.

Of course team evil might lose and Redcloak not survive (and not be resurrected). I doubt there is a different priest of the Dark One capable of casting 9th level spells and waiting for, say, Jirix to level up enough would probably take longer than the time the world has left. It would also require a lot of effort to make it work narratively. As a reader of a work of fiction, I find this outcome unlikely.

As for what will actually happen, I do not think we, the readers, know enough to predict it yet. There is the world within the rifts, of which Thor is not aware, which means that Thor's plan to seal the rifts will not just play out as envisioned (although I expect it to be relevant).

[Hurkyl]

If Xykon's body is destroyed and he regenerates, it'll be around Redcloak's neck, so Team Evil is over.
Ah, I got lost in my recollections of all the cross-double crosses. It's pretty ballsy for Redcloak to keep the original right there in Xykon's plain view, though.

In #833 Redcloak is wearing his square-shaped backup holy symbol, and he's still wearing that style in #901 at Girard's Gate, so we know that Redcloak hasn't kept the phylactery on his neck the whole time since leaving Azure City.

But in #1189 we see the round holy symbol again, so who knows.

[ebarde]

Depending on how long it takes for him to reform, it might be enough to set a few more defenses and plan with Serini how to best guard the gate.

[BloodSquirrel]

You guys do realize that, as of Durkon's chat with Thor, the Order does know about The Plan, right? Or at least enough about it to not underestimate Redcloak's importance.

[KorvinStarmast]

What a win could accomplish though would be to change *Redcloak*'s mind, if he survives and Xykon does not. Finding a suitable arcane caster for the ritual is hard But standing right over there is V

You guys do realize that, as of Durkon's chat with Thor, the Order does know about The Plan, right? Or at least enough about it to not underestimate Redcloak's importance. One can only hope.

[bt109]

To me, if they manage to "kill" Xykon, Redcloak has no choice but to then destroy the philactery as, otherwise, Xykon will know for 100% that Redcloak is lying to him when he starts to regenerate somewhere other than where he stashed the fake one that he did not know was fake. At that point, target #1 for Xykon is Redcloak.

Unless Redcloak zips over to the fortress ASAP, or does some elaborate ruse to make Xykon think he's there, or talks his way out of it somehow, or casts his specially-researched "modify undead memory" spell.

He's been very clever so far, I'm sure he has something planned.

[BloodSquirrel]

But standing right over there is V

...who neither us nor Redcloak have any reason to think would cooperate with him.

[Forum Explorer]

Alternate title: what does it take to win?

Suppose the Order of the Stick were allowed to carry out their ambush and even manage to kill Xykon and drive off Redcloak. What have they even achieved by such a victory?

It seems to me the result is a month's delay as Xykon regenerates, and compelling Team Evil to take their siege somewhat more seriously (and clue them in to something they didn't realize they didn't realize about the trap). So winning the ambush would actively make things worse if they don't have a pretty amazing plan about how to use that month.

To be anything more than an inconvenience for Team Evil, I think at a minimum Redcloak needs to be killed, which I suspect is a blind spot for any of their opponents that are not part of the Sapphire Guard. But is that even enough to eliminate the threat of The Dark One's plan? Probably need to destroy the Crimson Mantle. Is that enough?

Still doesn't do anything about the problem of an epic sorcerer lich who knows about the gate and is interested in acquiring it and will do who knows what with it. They know about the existence of Xykon's Astral Fortress so that's a huge leg up. But it seems there's still a heckuva lot to do to turn a successful ambush into an actual victory for the good guys.

What sort of thing involved in actually destroying an epic lich? I've never played through such a story line before.

Replace drive away Redcloak with capture, and that's a win as well.

In fact, strictly speaking, they don't need to kill Xykon at all. They only need to capture or kill Redcloak to stop the plan. Now if they want the bonus points of ending the threat of the Snarl by boosting the effectiveness of the Gates, the Order needs Redcloak. But they could do without that if necessary, and at least save the world for some time.

Without Redcloak and thus, with no way to complete the ritual, it is hard to say what Xykon will do. Attempt to kill the Order probably, but if they ran away, I could see him just sort of going on a rampage and maybe trying to conquer the world via an undead army or something. Still be a massive threat to be put down, but not literally world ending sort of threat.

[Precure]

...who neither us nor Redcloak have any reason to think would cooperate with him.

They're destined to be allies.

https://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad44/ZanarilOOTS/bannervxrc.png

[RatElemental]

If Xykon gets dusted then his soul will go into Redcoak's pocket, from which he will realize he's been bamboozled and activate the geas on the MitD to eat Redcloak, I imagine. Thus throwing a spanner in the works of the order's plan to catch Redcloak alive and then something will happen with the world in the rifts and eventually the world will be saved somehow.

[JonahFalcon]

Thus, even if OOTS has no clue about the philactery, which I am not betting on given that they have seen Xykon come back from the "dead" once already,

V tried to toss his phylactery into the Snarl, remember?

Anyway, Oona will kill Redcloak and assume the mantle herself.

[KorvinStarmast]

Anyway, Oona will kill Redcloak and assume the mantle herself. While I'd love that, and it would upgrade the quality of Greyview's received treats, I'm not betting the rent money on that one.

[Ionathus]

If Xykon gets dusted then his soul will go into Redcoak's pocket, from which he will realize he's been bamboozled and activate the geas on the MitD to eat Redcloak, I imagine.

I got the impression that Xykon's Geas/Charm/Whatever isn't a remote control he can activate: it's a mental suggestion that will automatically trigger a response from MitD when the time comes.

[RatElemental]

I got the impression that Xykon's Geas/Charm/Whatever isn't a remote control he can activate: it's a mental suggestion that will automatically trigger a response from MitD when the time comes.

I figured the way it would go would be that Xykon would yell "Redcloak has betrayed me" while in the amulet and then the geas would kick in because that would be the moment MitD realized that Redcloak betrayed Xykon. If it kicked in the moment Redcloak betrays Xykon whether or not anyone knows then he would already have eaten him and that spell would probably have to go up a level or two.

[Ionathus]

I figured the way it would go would be that Xykon would yell "Redcloak has betrayed me" while in the amulet and then the geas would kick in because that would be the moment MitD realized that Redcloak betrayed Xykon. If it kicked in the moment Redcloak betrays Xykon whether or not anyone knows then he would already have eaten him and that spell would probably have to go up a level or two.

The spell was worded "If Redcloak ever betrays me..." but that clearly wasn't meant to be omniscient. It was meant to say "If there's ever a moment where you think Redcloak has betrayed me..." The trigger is in the MitD's perception of the situation, not relying on a verbal trigger from Xykon, or else he wouldn't have been vague about it and would've just said "If I ever tell you to eat Redcloak and spit out his amulet, do it" outright. The point was that MitD is supposed to act on his own with the instructions.

[RatElemental]

The spell was worded "If Redcloak ever betrays me..." but that clearly wasn't meant to be omniscient. It was meant to say "If there's ever a moment where you think Redcloak has betrayed me..." The trigger is in the MitD's perception of the situation, not relying on a verbal trigger from Xykon, or else he wouldn't have been vague about it and would've just said "If I ever tell you to eat Redcloak and spit out his amulet, do it" outright. The point was that MitD is supposed to act on his own with the instructions.

Yeah the MitD can still act on his own when the time comes. But if Xykon outright tells him the condition is fulfilled, I think that would trigger it.

[Mike Havran]

For example:
1. Order, Serini and her Monster Crew and the Paladins join forces and plan an ambush when Team Evil return from their dungeon crawl and start bantering about being tapped out.
2. Order ambushes Team Evil, destroys Xykon and kills Redcloak, Oona and Greyview. If any bugbears join the fray, they die as well. MitD will hold back due to friendship with O-Chul
3. Victors loot all corpses and find a second phylactery hidden on Redcloak, just as Xykon begins to regenerate.
4. They visit nearby volcano as in the happy dream sequence and drop Xykon there, destroying him once and for all and releasing Eugene from Blood Oath.
5. Serini helps them to some Scribbler material and Durkon and V start to research Gate spell themselves. Meanwhile Hinjo and the order will pursue to establish diplomatic relations with Jirix and Gobbotopia, possibly using Redcloaks leftover artifacts and the Crimson Mantle as bargaining chips.
6. At some point during this, dwarven Council of Clans resumes its voting on Dvalin and his Godsmoot question. Since they are not complete idiots, the answer will be No, therefore Dvalin will break the tie in disfavor of Hel. Even if the next Godsmoot commences, Hel will not win more votes because she has graciously explained her Evil plan to the Pantheon and most of the Gods are not idiots and will not risk getting themselves under her boot when there is one Gate left standing without immediate threat around (since Durkon and Thor will commune about their situation, which vastly clears many divine doubts).
7. They either reseal rifts with researched Scribbler gate or wait for an ally among Dark One worshippers to emerge, whichever comes first.
8. Everybody wins.

[KorvinStarmast]

For example:
1. Order, Serini and her Monster Crew and the Paladins join forces and plan an ambush when Team Evil return from their dungeon crawl and start bantering about being tapped out.
2. Order ambushes Team Evil, destroys Xykon and kills Redcloak, Oona and Greyview. If any bugbears join the fray, they die as well. MitD will hold back due to friendship with O-Chul
3. Victors loot all corpses and find a second phylactery hidden on Redcloak, just as Xykon begins to regenerate.
4. They visit nearby volcano as in the happy dream sequence and drop Xykon there, destroying him once and for all and releasing Eugene from Blood Oath.
5. Serini helps them to some Scribbler material and Durkon and V start to research Gate spell themselves. Meanwhile Hinjo and the order will pursue to establish diplomatic relations with Jirix and Gobbotopia, possibly using Redcloaks leftover artifacts and the Crimson Mantle as bargaining chips.
6. At some point during this, dwarven Council of Clans resumes its voting on Dvalin and his Godsmoot question. Since they are not complete idiots, the answer will be No, therefore Dvalin will break the tie in disfavor of Hel. Even if the next Godsmoot commences, Hel will not win more votes because she has graciously explained her Evil plan to the Pantheon and most of the Gods are not idiots and will not risk getting themselves under her boot when there is one Gate left standing without immediate threat around (since Durkon and Thor will commune about their situation, which vastly clears many divine doubts).
7. They either reseal rifts with researched Scribbler gate or wait for an ally among Dark One worshippers to emerge, whichever comes first.
Make sure that you book mark this post. I'd like to compare your prediction to the final result.

8. Everybody wins. Elanesque, and thanks to the IFCC being utterly omitted in this detailed analysis, not even good enough for a participation trophy. :smallfrown: