Arcane Trickster (4), BattleMaster (6) viable without Booming Blade?

[w15p]

So I had originally gone the Inquisitive route with my 'Archer' but was finding it to be kinda useless in practice. My DM agreed to let me switch subclasses and I opted for AT. Now, already kinda non-optimized as I went with Wood Elf and a decent Wis (helpful in perception certainly).
Stats:
Str 9
Dex 20
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 15
Chr 11

Feats: Sharpshooter, Elven Accuracy, Resilient (Dex).

The intention was to never really be in Melee, but magic bows seem to be a bit scarce in PotA (no spoilers please... I have enough trouble with having the internet at my fingertips...). I did pick up Windvane and I've been trying to lean into melee a bit more as half the MOBs we run into are resistant to non-magical weapons, but the original rule on the game was PHB+1 -- and my '+1' was XgtE primarily for Inquisitive (now not in play) but I also took Elven Accuracy.

I would love to have taken BB as one of my cantrips, but it was outside of my '+1' -- speaking with my DM about it, they felt that BB was not in the spirit of an Arcane Trickster, even though allowed by RAW. However, if I took Magic Initiate (4 levels away) or multiclassed into Wizard (which I don't have the Int for, given my initial build choices), they would be fine with it, even though it breaks the "+1" rule.

I have been lobbying pretty hard to get it as one of my basic AT cantrips and losing that argument splendidly.

How gimped am I going to be without it? It just seems like at lvl 11, a guaranteed 2d8 on a hit with a rider of 3d8 if they chase me (skirmisher tactics with cunning action disengage) is worth arguing for, and perhaps even delaying my Rogue progression by dipping Wizard if I have to (and if I can).

Thoughts?

[Lunali]

Unless you get the bonus damage for getting them to move, BB is likely a net loss for you since you can't extra attack with it.

That said, this spell is very much in the rogue/AT style of messing with people over doing direct damage. Therefore I assume the DM's main issue is that they have decided that the spell is louder or more obvious than other spells, despite nothing in the spell text saying anything of the sort, it doesn't even have a verbal component.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I don't really think you're gimped. You have multi-attack and battlemaster maneuvers. You can definitely pick maneuvers that work with skirmish tactics; trip and menacing come to mind off the top of my head.

[Keravath]

Just some comments ..

Overall, I am not sure booming blade helps that much unless you can regularly trigger the rider damage.

The two scenarios are one attack with booming blade and possibly sneak attack vs two melee attacks (both of which add +5 damage for dex) and two chances to land sneak attack if one of the attacks misses. With booming blade everything is on one die roll.

I think you are probably as well or better off just using the attack action and extra attack.

Keep in mind that at level 7 rogue you will be able to get the shadow blade spell which will likely be a decent choice for your character in melee - especially in dim light or darkness because it will trigger elven accuracy. You don't seem to have many ways to enable elven accuracy so I am not sure how useful that has been for you so far.

Instead of pushing your DM to let you take BB as a spell, I would see if you could encourage him to have a magical bow of some sort show up during the adventure since then you can go back to your usual ranged tactics.

Other methods you might have to enable elven accuracy would be using find familiar (which you can take as a 1st level AT rogue) to summon up an owl which can use the help action on a flyby to give you advantage on your attack. Another option is the steady aim bonus action from Tasha's.

I'm not sure I would have picked resilient dex by the way - in the long run (assuming you already have con saves) - resilient wisdom will likely be more useful. Your dex saves are already pretty good with 20 dex and most dex saves tend to be AoE damage. On the other hand, wis is related to some pretty nasy spells that are more likely to turn up in tier 3 or 4.

[w15p]

Somehow it entirely escaped me that I cannot multi-attack with BB - yeah, that changes the analysis a LOT, thank you.

Further to 'Elven Advantage' and 'Resilient Dex' - I get advantage reasonably often - we have a chainLock with an Imp that usually takes the help action and yes, I did take Find Familiar and will have an Owl ... soon (as soon as I can scrounge up the components). I took Resilient Dex because I needed a half feat to max out Dex - I could have split my ASI I guess to get my Wisdom to a +3... but that isn't what I chose to do. Also - yes, my first lvl was in Fighter, so I am proficient in Str, Dex, and Con saves.

Anyway - thanks a bunch for the comments and correcting my misunderstanding!

Windvane is a +2 Finesse spear that gives an additional 1d6 lightning damage on a hit (avg 10 +5(dex)), so not really likely to take Shadow Blade unless Windvane is lost or destroyed... though granted it would be somewhat more powerful if upcast, it seems just shy of a wash if cast with a lvl 2 spell slot

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Somehow it entirely escaped me that I cannot multi-attack with BB - yeah, that changes the analysis a LOT, thank you.

Further to 'Elven Advantage' and 'Resilient Dex' - I get advantage reasonably often - we have a chainLock with an Imp that usually takes the help action and yes, I did take Find Familiar and will have an Owl ... soon (as soon as I can scrounge up the components). I took Resilient Dex because I needed a half feat to max out Dex - I could have split my ASI I guess to get my Wisdom to a +3... but that isn't what I chose to do. Also - yes, my first lvl was in Fighter, so I am proficient in Str, Dex, and Con saves.

Anyway - thanks a bunch for the comments and correcting my misunderstanding!

Windvane is a +2 Finesse spear that gives an additional 1d6 lightning damage on a hit (avg 10 +5(dex)), so not really likely to take Shadow Blade unless Windvane is lost or destroyed... though granted it would be somewhat more powerful if upcast, it seems just shy of a wash if cast with a lvl 2 spell slot

Changes analysis even more when you account for the magic weapon... even more damage with the extra attack.

[SharkForce]

you won't be weak at all. two attacks is probably better for you most of the time, and battlemaster synergizes quite nicely with rogue.

with that said... cantrips are unrestricted. your level 1 and higher spells are limited (no really look at the class feature, it's "Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher" that limits your options). your cantrips can be anything from the wizard list because they aren't 1st level or higher, regardless of how "suitable" or "unsuitable" they may be (although with that said, I think you'll be able to do more interesting things with other cantrips anyways, so there's no loss here).

I'm also not really seeing how wood elf is unoptimized. you get a higher move speed, dexterity, the ability to use hide in more easily (hide as a bonus action + more hiding spots is good), and quite frankly there is nothing wrong with higher wisdom saves and perception checks. I suppose there might be something slightly more optimized, but in general that sounds quite effective to me.

[Khrysaes]

Booming blade would work well with warcaster, if you got it.

As it allows you an opportunity to use your reaction and get a sneak attack in without using the reaction maneuver.

However, it would violate the +1 rule, as according to the AL Player's guide, at least for season 10, unless I'm not looking at the most recent one, only background and race are not restricted by the PH+1 rule.

That said, I am more against what you described as the DM saying "that BB was not in the spirit of an Arcane Trickster." Namely, because that is fluff. I am deeply against being restricted to or ascribed the flavor/fluff content of the books. I am not against using them, just that I think that the player should be allowed to describe their character and reasons for having a feature, not limited to the fluff of the book.

I.e. if I want to make a sorcerer, but not have it's magical power defined as being a bloodline, or from say a dragon, but another elemental creature, then that is my agency to do so as it doesn't affect the gameplay. Other than a minor one such as changing the "draconic" aspect to be a "primordial" aspect or somesuch instead, such as the language or the charisma check advantage, but that would be talked with the DM. Even then, without changing mechanics it should still be my choice to describe the character without the fluff of the book being ascribed to it.

[da newt]

With a shield and your magic spear you should be quite capable and tough too once you get uncanny dodge.

I'd be tempted to find a way to get Polearm Master next as it should trigger many more op attacks so you can SA offturn and get a BA attack too.

[RogueJK]

With a shield and your magic spear you should be quite capable and tough too once you get uncanny dodge.

I'd be tempted to find a way to get Polearm Master next as it should trigger many more op attacks so you can SA offturn and get a BA attack too.

You can't Sneak Attack with a Spear. In fact, you can't Sneak Attack with any of the Polearm Master weapons (glaive, halberd, spear, quarterstaff).

Sneak Attack requires a ranged or Finesse weapon.


The Riposte Maneuver would be a way that this AT/BM build could get off-turn Sneak Attacks. Wield a Finesse weapon like a Rapier, and when an enemy misses you with an attack, spend a Maneuver Dice and your Reaction to Sneak Attack them with a Riposte.

[w15p]

You can't Sneak Attack with a Spear. In fact, you can't Sneak Attack with any of the Polearm Master weapons (glaive, halberd, spear, quarterstaff).

Sneak Attack requires a ranged or Finesse weapon.
...
Windvane is a +2 Finesse spear that gives an additional 1d6 lightning damage on a hit (avg 10 +5(dex)), so yes - in this case, I can make a sneak attack with a spear

[w15p]

With a shield and your magic spear you should be quite capable and tough too once you get uncanny dodge.

I'd be tempted to find a way to get Polearm Master next as it should trigger many more op attacks so you can SA offturn and get a BA attack too.

PAM does look fun, particularly with skirmish tactics/disengage. But then Ritual Caster would also be cool, or Alert, or ... :) I have some time to think about it as it's 4 levels away.

I've decided to continue in Rogue for the foreseeable future, I really only did Fighter 3 to get BattleMaster, but then it was only one more level to get an ASI and then it was only one more level to get Extra Attack, then it was only another level to get another ASI...

Uncanny Dodge with a bump in SA dice does sound like a nice next step.

[w15p]

...
with that said... cantrips are unrestricted. your level 1 and higher spells are limited (no really look at the class feature, it's "Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher" that limits your options). your cantrips can be anything from the wizard list because they aren't 1st level or higher, regardless of how "suitable" or "unsuitable" they may be (although with that said, I think you'll be able to do more interesting things with other cantrips anyways, so there's no loss here).
...


...
That said, I am more against what you described as the DM saying "that BB was not in the spirit of an Arcane Trickster." Namely, because that is fluff. I am deeply against being restricted to or ascribed the flavor/fluff content of the books. I am not against using them, just that I think that the player should be allowed to describe their character and reasons for having a feature, not limited to the fluff of the book.
...

I agree with you both and I think that's why I fought it so hard. However... on balance the DM has been more than fair and is a good friend - allowing me to redo my subclass was huge.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Windvane is a +2 Finesse spear that gives an additional 1d6 lightning damage on a hit (avg 10 +5(dex)), so yes - in this case, I can make a sneak attack with a spear

Yeah, after thinking about it a bit more with this particular Magic Item + PAM and the ability to get sneak attack the combo is borderline OP; quite the opposite of not viable. I like Fighter/ Rogues and now I've got to try to delete the spoiler from my mind in case I ever play this Mod, cause there's a real incentive to build around this.

[Gignere]

Your best bet is to see if you can ask your DM if you can trade out sharpshooter for PAM. Your character would be pretty damn powerful once you get PAM.