Question about the Simulacrum spell.

[Clistenes]

Let say there is a creature that has been transformed into another using True Polymorph, their mental stats changed using Feeblemind, their memories altered using repeated castings of Modify Memory...

If you were to use Simulacrum to copy that creature... would you get the original unaltered creature, or the altered one...?

[Reach Weapon]

If you were to use Simulacrum to copy that creature... would you get the original unaltered creature, or the altered one...?
It seems to me that I would rule based on some combination of the caster's intent, the material components (the rough shaping of the ice or snow, and when the body pieces were harvested) and the overall game situation. Most likely this would result in a simulacrum that copies the underlying original state but with the effects of various spells applied, such that one could specifically dispel those effects.

I don't see any obvious RAW or RAI guidance.

[Abracadangit]

Let say there is a creature that has been transformed into another using True Polymorph, their mental stats changed using Feeblemind, their memories altered using repeated castings of Modify Memory...

If you were to use Simulacrum to copy that creature... would you get the original unaltered creature, or the altered one...?

The opening line of Simulacrum says: "You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell."

To me, it doesn't sound like there's any intrinsic ability in the spell to see through polymorphs, undo memory modifications, and so on. This spell is, for all intents and purposes, an organism photocopier. Whatever gets scanned by the moving light bar at first is what gets duplicated.

The question here is what would your DM say if you had the required hair/nail trimmings/whatever of their previous form. Would the spell work? Technically those pieces aren't from the creature standing in front of you, they're from a different creature that the intelligence in front of you USED to be. A more creative DM might rule that the copy you end up with is something new entirely, but if my DM told me "Nope, original copy in, photocopy out, anything else shorts the spell," I wouldn't argue with them.

[Corey]

If Creature X has the property "Has a True Polymorph effect on it, which if dispelled will turn it into Creature Y", why wouldn't the Simulacrum have the same property?

[Clistenes]

If Creature X has the property "Has a True Polymorph effect on it, which if dispelled will turn it into Creature Y", why wouldn't the Simulacrum have the same property?

Such property wouldn't be among the polymorphed creature stats, and Simulacrum only copies stats and memories... I think the Simulacrum would have either the original stats or the altered stats, but in the latter case, you could probably not dispel the changes...

[dragoeniex]

This is a fascinating question. Unfortunately, I can't fully engage with it because I'm busy being horrified on behalf of the hypothetical being we'd even need to do this on. Good gosh. That's a painfully detailed way to strip down someone's sense of self. I'm morbidly intrigued by what brought this about.

Is this just an "out of curiosity" question, or have you and your group run into a situation where this is a better option than trying to treat the original?

[Townopolis]

As a DM, I would rule that you get the original, unaltered creature. My reasoning has nothing to do with RAW and is entirely predicated on the fact that allowing Simulacrum to replicate polymorph, etc. sounds abusable.

If a player had a specific use-case in mind, I may allow them to perform spell research to develop a ritual to modify a single casting of the Simulacrum spell to accomplish that specific use-case, requiring and consuming additional material components with cost and rarity proportional to the use case's power and adjusted based on how much I trust this player.

If a player just asks generally, the answer is no. If a player demands to know why:

Magic
It has to do with how the spell transcribes the creature's metamanifestational ur-echo, the need to use an ectoplasmic seed that is both non-negative and non-positive in its entropic state, and the specific way the spell disjoins itself from contagian-based idioredaction while still allowing the simulacrum to pass the realization filter.

[KorvinStarmast]

The opening line of Simulacrum says: "You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell."

To me, it doesn't sound like there's any intrinsic ability in the spell to see through polymorphs, undo memory modifications, and so on. This spell is, for all intents and purposes, an organism photocopier. Whatever gets scanned by the moving light bar at first is what gets duplicated. And that's the KISS principle at work.

That's a painfully detailed way to strip down someone's sense of self. I'm morbidly intrigued by what brought this about. Polymorph creature in to object turns that up to 11. :smallcool:

Is this just an "out of curiosity" question, or have you and your group run into a situation where this is a better option than trying to treat the original? I am hoping that the OP will answer that.

Let say there is a creature that has been transformed into another using True Polymorph, their mental stats changed using Feeblemind, their memories altered using repeated castings of Modify Memory...

If you were to use Simulacrum to copy that creature... would you get the original unaltered creature, or the altered one...? WYSIWYG. As a DM, I often default to the KISS principle.

But did you actually see this happen at the table, or are you theorycrafting?

[Clistenes]

And that's the KISS principle at work.
But did you actually see this happen at the table, or are you theorycrafting?

It still hasn't happened, but I just thought it could be interesting if it were to happen...

As it has been mentioned, if the party managed to capture such creature, they could extract information about its nature and past without returning it to its natural state... Depending on the circunstances it could even be used as a loophole to spare themselves from some trouble... why fixing the powerful, evil necromancer cursed by his enemies to be a ravenous beast when you can get the information you need from a Simulacrum...?

[KorvinStarmast]

It still hasn't happened, but I just thought it could be interesting if it were to happen...

As it has been mentioned, if the party managed to capture such creature, they could extract information about its nature and past without returning it to its natural state... Depending on the circunstances it could even be used as a loophole to spare themselves from some trouble... why fixing the powerful, evil necromancer cursed by his enemies to be a ravenous beast when you can get the information you need from a Simulacrum...? Interesting. If this does come up, I'd love to hear how it turns out.
FWIW: we just fought a mind flayer lich and she got knocked to 0 HP. I then decided to cast Feeblemind on her.
Note: DM will usually do death saves for majore NPCs, has been a thing throughout the campaign, and it's how I saved the life (healing word!) of an adult black dragon we'd slain/defeated ... separate story)
I thought it was a brilliant way to take her captive and present her to the conclave of dragons as evidence against that black dragon's grandfather (Yeah, I had a good reason to save that adult black dragon's life! And we made a deal, he and I ...)

Sadly, my Feeblemind spell failed for the simplest of reasons: the lich made her save. Scratch one level 8 spell slot.

[Bardon]

It still hasn't happened, but I just thought it could be interesting if it were to happen...

As it has been mentioned, if the party managed to capture such creature, they could extract information about its nature and past without returning it to its natural state... Depending on the circunstances it could even be used as a loophole to spare themselves from some trouble... why fixing the powerful, evil necromancer cursed by his enemies to be a ravenous beast when you can get the information you need from a Simulacrum...?

This works remarkably well with Wish - use Wish to cast Simulacrum instantly without material components in the middle of battle, making a Simulacrum of the BBEG! One Teleport later and your party is safe and sound back home with a friendly version of the BBEG who is happy to share all the information about his plans, his allies, his resources and stockpiles and safe houses - as well as being happy to fight by your side.

[Reach Weapon]

I think the Simulacrum would have either the original stats or the altered stats
Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates, except that it is a construct. (https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/simulacrum)
I don't think you've made a very strong case for "all the statistics" necessarily excluding either the original or altered set of statistics.

[Unoriginal]

If you cast Haste on someone then Simulacrum them, is the Simulacrum Hasted?

Unquestioningly not.

[Reach Weapon]

I should have explicitly acknowledged that given the duration versus casting time issue, I assumed a Wish or the like was involved.

[RSP]

From True Polymorph:

“You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into a nonmagical object, or the object into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature).”

This clearly states the pre-TP creature is a different creature post TP.

From Simulacrum:

“You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell. The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates, except that it is a construct.”

So if you TP a Human into turtle, the creature you are casting Simulacrum upon then, is a turtle; and a simulacrum of said turtle is what you get.

[Burley]

Also, the Simulacra isn't an intelligent being. It follows orders somewhat intelligently, but so does a summoned dire weasel.

I just notice the OP has repeated bits about memory and mental stats and junk. A Simulacra doesn't have memories and it specifically lacks the ability to learn, so, even if there were memories in the first place, you couldn't edit them.

For all intents and purposes, by the spell description, Simulacrum creates a melt-resistant Frosty the Snowman, with one-time-use spell slots.

[KorvinStarmast]

This works remarkably well with Wish - use Wish to cast Simulacrum instantly without material components in the middle of battle, making a Simulacrum of the BBEG! One Teleport later and your party is safe and sound back home with a friendly version of the BBEG who is happy to share all the information about his plans, his allies, his resources and stockpiles and safe houses - as well as being happy to fight by your side.


If you cast Haste on someone then Simulacrum them, is the Simulacrum Hasted?

Unquestioningly not.


Also, the Simulacra isn't an intelligent being.
Constructs with INT scores are intelligent beings, why not a simulacrum who has the same INT score as the being it was created as a copy of?

The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature’s hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates. While there is some gray area, if my sorcerer ally has an INT of 12 and I make a sim of him, the sim has an INT of 12.
It follows orders somewhat intelligently, but so does a summoned dire weasel. Your ruling, but that's at odds with what's in the game books currently. (Hence the never ending discussions in re that spell). It's a creature with same INT, WIS, and CHA scores of the original.

I just notice the OP has repeated bits about memory and mental stats and junk. A Simulacra doesn't have memories and it specifically lacks the ability to learn, so, even if there were memories in the first place, you couldn't edit them. It has memory (or more explicitly, the spell does not mention not having memory) but it can't learn (which is specified) - some gray area here for rulings, to be sure.

For all intents and purposes, by the spell description, Simulacrum creates a melt-resistant Frosty the Snowman, with one-time-use spell slots. It does a bit more than that. My bard made a simBard at level 14. It knows all of the songs my bard knows, and how to play all of the songs my bard knows how to play, but (we are pretty sure) can't learn new songs. DM has also ruled that it can't benefit from short rest recharge of bardic inspiration, so simBard only has 5 of those available.

[Clistenes]

A Simulacrum knows the same languages, spells, skills, tool proficiencies, weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies...etc., as the base creature; they obviously inherit knowledge...

But also, if it doesn't get any knowledge and memories from the base creature, then a lot of fun uses as spy, decoy and minion would become impossible, so I'm against that.

[KorvinStarmast]

But also, if it doesn't get any knowledge and memories from the base creature, then a lot of fun uses as spy, decoy and minion would become impossible, so I'm against that. Yep. My sim's first mission was to make people think Bard went to "location X" while she was elsewhere on a major mission to set up the BBEG for failure. Bard has amulet of proof against detection/scrying, so the head fake was modestly successful.
Eventually, however, we left enough evidence of our passage that the deception plan no longer worked.
But it worked long enough.

[quindraco]

Let say there is a creature that has been transformed into another using True Polymorph, their mental stats changed using Feeblemind, their memories altered using repeated castings of Modify Memory...

If you were to use Simulacrum to copy that creature... would you get the original unaltered creature, or the altered one...?

The altered one, for any spell that is not currently on the target. Assuming all three spells are over and done with, any lingering effects are simply copied.

[Phhase]

This is a fascinating question. Unfortunately, I can't fully engage with it because I'm busy being horrified on behalf of the hypothetical being we'd even need to do this on.

Now that's a quote. May I sig that?

[Keltest]

While not necessarily explicit, i think its a fair thing to say the intent is that magical effects not innate to the creature (such as darkvision) are not copied over to the simulacrum. So polymorph, haste, etc... are all dispelled on the simulacrum. Otherwise you end up with a creature that has a permanent haste spell on it, since the new creature would use hasted statistics but not have a haste spell cast on it or being concentrated on.

[Telok]

My bard made a simBard at level 14. It knows all of the songs my bard knows, and how to play all of the songs my bard knows how to play, but (we are pretty sure) can't learn new songs. DM has also ruled that it can't benefit from short rest recharge of bardic inspiration, so simBard only has 5 of those available.

Do the "i'm a real boy" trick and True Polymorph the sim into a copy of you. No longer an illusion/construct but a flesh & blood person with the same mind. Of course you're so far from the intended uses of the spell now that the books stop helping.

[JackPhoenix]

Do the "i'm a real boy" trick and True Polymorph the sim into a copy of you. No longer an illusion/construct but a flesh & blood person with the same mind. Of course you're so far from the intended uses of the spell now that the books stop helping.

It also doesn't work, unless you're an NPC. What you can True Polymorph the target into is based on the new form's CR, and PCs don't have CR, they have levels.

[RSP]

Do the "i'm a real boy" trick and True Polymorph the sim into a copy of you. No longer an illusion/construct but a flesh & blood person with the same mind. Of course you're so far from the intended uses of the spell now that the books stop helping.

It also doesn't work, unless you're an NPC. What you can True Polymorph the target into is based on the new form's CR, and PCs don't have CR, they have levels.

Per TP:
“If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or its level, if the target doesn't have a challenge rating).”

So you can use level in place of CR.

Per Simulacrum:
“The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates, except that it is a construct.”

Level is a statistic of the original creature that, RAW, should be duplicated on the Simulacrum.

RAW, I don’t see a reason why the Simulacrum can’t be TP’d into something else using it’s level rather than CR.

[Burley]

A Simulacrum knows the same languages, spells, skills, tool proficiencies, weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies...etc., as the base creature; they obviously inherit knowledge...

But also, if it doesn't get any knowledge and memories from the base creature, then a lot of fun uses as spy, decoy and minion would become impossible, so I'm against that.

They don't "inherit" anything. Any knowledge is magically (articifially) implanted. The simulacrum may know what the caster knows, but it doesn't make them intelligent. They simply have a copy of their creator's INT stat.

Here's an example of being intelligent being, regardless of your INT stat:
I would let a Simulacrum make a history check to recall the king's name or appearance (if the caster would know it), but not sense motive to catch the king in a lie, because, as a non-intelligent being, it wouldn't suspect king is pretender, without existing knowledge. It only knows what it knows at creation. Unless the king was previously thought to be an imposter, the Simulacrum is simply going to follow orders.

[JackPhoenix]

Per TP:
“If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or its level, if the target doesn't have a challenge rating).”

So you can use level in place of CR.

The target's level, not the new form's level.

[Keltest]

They don't "inherit" anything. Any knowledge is magically (articifially) implanted. The simulacrum may know what the caster knows, but it doesn't make them intelligent. They simply have a copy of their creator's INT stat.

Here's an example of being intelligent being, regardless of your INT stat:
I would let a Simulacrum make a history check to recall the king's name or appearance (if the caster would know it), but not sense motive to catch the king in a lie, because, as a non-intelligent being, it wouldn't suspect king is pretender, without existing knowledge. It only knows what it knows at creation. Unless the king was previously thought to be an imposter, the Simulacrum is simply going to follow orders.

I think it might be better to say that a simulacrum has no initiative rather than that they are unintelligent. If theyre told to meet with the king, and then they get to the king and see that he has a fake beard, then it wont put two and two together and conclude the king is an imposter because that conclusion is outside the realm of its instructions. If asked, they might even be able to speculate on the possible scenarios that would result in the king having a fake beard, and possibly even conclude for you that the most likely one is that the king is an imposter, but unless that changes the context of its mission in some way then it wont affect its behavior.

Its sort of the same deal as working with a computer. Theyll do what you tell them to, not what you want them to.

[RSP]

The target's level, not the new form's level.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. Can you explain?

[Keltest]

I’m not sure what you mean by this. Can you explain?

You can transform a level 10 character into a CR 10 monster, but not a CR 10 monster into a level 10 druid.

[JackPhoenix]

I’m not sure what you mean by this. Can you explain?

Exactly what the text says.

The new form must have CR same or lower than the target's CR, or level if the target is a PC. There's nothing saying the new form can have a level instead of a CR, thus you can't use True Polymorph to turn into a copy of a player character.

Or, as Keltest said better:
You can transform a level 10 character into a CR 10 monster, but not a CR 10 monster into a level 10 druid.

[Keltest]

Exactly what the text says.

The new form must have CR same or lower than the target's CR, or level if the target is a PC. There's nothing saying the new form can have a level instead of a CR, thus you can't use True Polymorph to turn into a copy of a player character.

The real issue comes up when you transform into another playable race. If you change from a human to an elf, do you lose all your class levels? If you change into a different human, do you still lose them? Theres no logical reason why going from elf to human or vice versa should logically affect your mental state enough to cause you to lose those abilities after all.

[JackPhoenix]

The real issue comes up when you transform into another playable race. If you change from a human to an elf, do you lose all your class levels? If you change into a different human, do you still lose them? Theres no logical reason why going from elf to human or vice versa should logically affect your mental state enough to cause you to lose those abilities after all.

It's even weirder, because you can't use TP to change from a human wizard to an elf wizard (as that would have class level), but you can change from a human wizard (or a fighter) into an elf archmage.

[RSP]

You can transform a level 10 character into a CR 10 monster, but not a CR 10 monster into a level 10 druid.

The Simulacrum “uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates” other than the noted exceptions, which don’t mention level.

So a Simulacrum of a level 10 Fighter, for example, is itself a level 10 Fighter. TP can change that creature into a “difference creature”, adopting the stats of that new creature.

So gone are all the Simulacrum restrictions; the new creature plays as it’s new stats, to include recovering spent resources during rests, as dictated by its new stat block.

In this way, TP can overcome the restrictions of Simulacrum. I wasn’t previously intending to state “TP can make a Simulacrum of Joe the Fighter, into a new a non-restricted Joe the Fighter”; just that it can make it into a creature that doesn’t have the Simulacrum restrictions.

Hopefully that clarifies my point.

Incidentally, Wish could possibly remove the Simulacrum restrictions (obviously DM dependent, RAW). I’d imagine that would be a good first casting of any Simulacrum with a 9th level slot that knows Wish. Even if the Simulacrum loses access to Wish, they’re now able to regain that slot, learn, regain HPs and other spell slots, etc.

[Keltest]

The Simulacrum “uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates” other than the noted exceptions, which don’t mention level.

So a Simulacrum of a level 10 Fighter, for example, is itself a level 10 Fighter. TP can change that creature into a “difference creature”, adopting the stats of that new creature.

So gone are all the Simulacrum restrictions; the new creature plays as it’s new stats, to include recovering spent resources during rests, as dictated by its new stat block.

In this way, TP can overcome the restrictions of Simulacrum. I wasn’t previously intending to state “TP can make a Simulacrum of Joe the Fighter, into a new a non-restricted Joe the Fighter”; just that it can make it into a creature that doesn’t have the Simulacrum restrictions.

Hopefully that clarifies my point.

Incidentally, Wish could possibly remove the Simulacrum restrictions (obviously DM dependent, RAW). I’d imagine that would be a good first casting of any Simulacrum with a 9th level slot that knows Wish. Even if the Simulacrum loses access to Wish, they’re now able to regain that slot, learn, regain HPs and other spell slots, etc.

Uh, i guess sure you could theoretically make a simulacrum of Joe the Fighter which is then true polymorphed into, i dunno, a squirrel or something, at which point it has the full HP and healing capabilities and such of the new form... But it also loses all the value of being a simulacrum, IE taking orders and being friendly to you.

[KorvinStarmast]

Do the "i'm a real boy" trick and True Polymorph the sim into a copy of you. No longer an illusion/construct but a flesh & blood person with the same mind. Of course you're so far from the intended uses of the spell now that the books stop helping. Not, not gonna. Might use wish (presuming I get to level 18 and get my Magical Secret) but our DM might roll his eyes and give me 'that look' if I tried to pull that one. Having a split personality is bad enough, but two actual versions of my bard?
*look of horror on my face, and on my DMs face*
Wait, that's the kind of shenanigans that would be hilarious in the right hands. :smallbiggrin: Like mine. :smallbiggrin:
Right, Phoenix? :smallbiggrin: And I could sing duets with myself when performing on stage.

Secondly: I have explicit plans for my SimBard. When and if I reach 17, I intend TP SimBard into an adult dragon, and then I either (1) make a friend for life of an adult dragon, and get to fly around on a dragon, or, (2) I may have to go on a quest to get a soul for this dragon since how souls work in the DM's world has to be accounted for.
And that would be a great quest to go on.

I may also just TP simBard for a little while and do a little commerce raiding on the back of a dragon, since my bard did once dream of becoming a great pirate - "A Lady of Fortune" as it were.
(Pirates used to refer to themselves as "Gentlemen of Fortune" back in the pirate era ... Port Royal and all that)

[Valmark]

Personally I think the Simulacrum would have modified memories and possibly Feebleminded stats- but wouldn't be Polymorphed, since that's an active spell on the target. The modified memories and Feebleminded stats can be healed but aren't a spell going on with it right now.

I might even rule that you can't make a Simulacrum of the Polymorphed version of a creature if I decide that lost body parts vanish (I never gave it thought nor have I ever been in a situation where that mattered, but it doesn't look particularly weird).

[sithlordnergal]

Uh, i guess sure you could theoretically make a simulacrum of Joe the Fighter which is then true polymorphed into, i dunno, a squirrel or something, at which point it has the full HP and healing capabilities and such of the new form... But it also loses all the value of being a simulacrum, IE taking orders and being friendly to you.

Ehhh, not necessarily. I could see an argument being made that it retains those since, to quote True Polymorph, when polymorph a creature into another creature "It retains its Alignment and Personality." At the very least, being friendly towards you is a personality trait, an I could easily see taking orders as being part of a personality trait. And if its not, then what is a Simulacrum's personality? Is it the same as your own? If so, how willing are you to listen to yourself, and how willing would you be to listen to yourself if you knew you were a clone?

[Keltest]

Ehhh, not necessarily. I could see an argument being made that it retains those since, to quote True Polymorph, when polymorph a creature into another creature "It retains its Alignment and Personality." At the very least, being friendly towards you is a personality trait, an I could easily see taking orders as being part of a personality trait. And if its not, then what is a Simulacrum's personality? Is it the same as your own? If so, how willing are you to listen to yourself, and how willing would you be to listen to yourself if you knew you were a clone?

I would describe a simulacrum's personality as being oatmeal. Its bland, boring, and may as well not exist flavor wise. They can imitate their origin character to a point, if theyre ordered to, but wont do so otherwise.

Like, if nothing else, "taking orders" and "being friendly" have to be functions of the spell, because otherwise it wouldnt work on characters with severe loathing for the caster or otherwise belligerent personalities.

[Telok]

It also doesn't work, unless you're an NPC. What you can True Polymorph the target into is based on the new form's CR, and PCs don't have CR, they have levels.

So retire your adventurer somewhere safe for a session, they get to be npc-awesome while you do pc-loser stuff, and un-retire next session with your polymorphed duplicate. Just be sure to check with your DM if they're running the game rules as computer code or just being a ****.