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Xanos
2007-11-16, 02:37 PM
After a long and very disturbing conversation with my brother, I decided to ask you guys out here.

With Pun Pun, you gain never-ending attributes, meaning you can do.. Basicly everything. I've toyed around with this idea for a bit, now.
Some of the stuff me and my brother have come up with, is:

With a never-ending Wisdom score, Pun Pun would have an incredible hearing. Meaning?
He can hear the small impulses in your brain. And with his incredible sense of logics and such and such, he can decode them into, you guessed it, being able to hear what you think.

With his enormous Wisdom score again, his eyes would be amazing. By beating a high enough DC, he should be able to see.. Everything.
And if he can see everything, and if we follow the theory saying, that if you know the position of every atom in the universe, you can basicly predict the future, Pun Pun can, with his eyes, predict the future.

With his Strength score, he is so strong, that if he pushes the air, the air travels so fast, that it becomes plasma.

I think you get my point. What else can Pun Pun do?

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-16, 02:39 PM
Everything

Please be first

Xanos
2007-11-16, 02:39 PM
Everything

Please be first
A little creativity never hurt anyone =p.

Keld Denar
2007-11-16, 02:44 PM
Why would he need infinite ability scores to do this? He can just grant himself the ability to read the thoughts of every living creature in the universe, and to reliably predict the future to incredible accuracy. There, done. He could also grant himself the ability to turn any substance into plasma, including air. His powers are limited to your imagination. That is it. The ability scores are just gravy.

Sucrose
2007-11-16, 02:47 PM
His nigh-infinite Charisma translates to a nigh-infinite Bluff check. This means that what he says becomes the truth.

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-16, 02:49 PM
His bluff check is so high it could trick everyone.
His wisdom is so high he couldn't be tricked.
By golly, I think I've worked out why Pun-Pun can't exist. I'll get the nobel prize for sure!!!

Xanos
2007-11-16, 02:49 PM
Why would he need infinite ability scores to do this? He can just grant himself the ability to read the thoughts of every living creature in the universe, and to reliably predict the future to incredible accuracy. There, done. He could also grant himself the ability to turn any substance into plasma, including air. His powers are limited to your imagination. That is it. The ability scores are just gravy.
Well, then this wouldn't be fun =p. I know he can, but he could also just wish an ability to be able to do everything at once, and then give his DM a headache.


His bluff check is so high it could trick everyone.
His wisdom is so high he couldn't be tricked.
By golly, I think I've worked out why Pun-Pun can't exist. I'll get the nobel prize for sure!!!
Can Pun Pun create a trick so good, that he tricks himself?
Dun dun duuuuhn!...
Or should I say
Pun pun puuuunnn!

SoD
2007-11-16, 02:51 PM
Like he said, use your imagination.

With his infintles high intelligence, he could understand every single language, dead, and alive, and could, therefore, in a split second, think up every possibility of that seven letter word that the Gnoll put up for hangman. He could then, after memorising the MM, remember the average intelligence for a Gnoll, calculate the probabilty that the Gnoll has high enough intelligence to udnerstand other languages, as well as the probability of which languages it took. Then, using his infintley high wisdom, would work out the exact personality of the specific Gnoll in question, and calculate the probability of each different word that the Gnoll would pick for hangman. Or, alternatively, he could, using his infinitley high dexterity score, perform a slight of hand check to sneakily grab the thought from the Gnolls brian without it noticing, and instantly win the game.

Then, using similar tactics, he would pick the word that the Gnoll has the least chance of winning, statisticly speaking.

I assume that it's this sort of thing you wanted?

Xanos
2007-11-16, 02:54 PM
Like he said, use your imagination.

With his infintles high intelligence, he could understand every single language, dead, and alive, and could, therefore, in a split second, think up every possibility of that seven letter word that the Gnoll put up for hangman. He could then, after memorising the MM, remember the average intelligence for a Gnoll, calculate the probabilty that the Gnoll has high enough intelligence to udnerstand other languages, as well as the probability of which languages it took. Then, using his infintley high wisdom, would work out the exact personality of the specific Gnoll in question, and calculate the probability of each different word that the Gnoll would pick for hangman. Or, alternatively, he could, using his infinitley high dexterity score, perform a slight of hand check to sneakily grab the thought from the Gnolls brian without it noticing, and instantly win the game.

Then, using similar tactics, he would pick the word that the Gnoll has the least chance of winning, statisticly speaking.

I assume that it's this sort of thing you wanted?

Exactly. That was.. Creative.

SoD
2007-11-16, 03:17 PM
A lot of people call my ideas...creative. Especially the one about using underwater currents to start an underwater sailing championship. And that idea was outside of DnD (actually, before I started playing).

And do I even want to ask why the conversation with your brother was disturbing?

Hmm, what else could he do...I suppose he could, with his ability to plane shift, keep on jumping until he found modern day earth, then, using his infitley high wisdom bonus, make a survival check to track time itself back to its lair. Whilst backtracking through time, he could use his infintley high dex to dodge time itself, thus not aging or youthing whilst time traveling. Upon reach ancient earth he could then use his infintley high charisma check to seduce God, and, using an epic slight of hand put himself inside god. A few months later, and Pun-pun is literally the son of god, then, he uses the same tactic previously discussed to go forward in time to a more modern day, where he uses his infintley high cha to bluff people into beleiveing he's the son of god, and then prooves it by using his infintley high balance check to walk on water, which, from memory, is DC 100.

Tekraen
2007-11-16, 03:22 PM
A lot of people call my ideas...creative. Especially the one about using underwater currents to start an underwater sailing championship. And that idea was outside of DnD (actually, before I started playing).

And do I even want to ask why the conversation with your brother was disturbing?

Hmm, what else could he do...I suppose he could, with his ability to plane shift, keep on jumping until he found modern day earth, then, using his infitley high wisdom bonus, make a survival check to track time itself back to its lair. Whilst backtracking through time, he could use his infintley high dex to dodge time itself, thus not aging or youthing whilst time traveling. Upon reach ancient earth he could then use his infintley high charisma check to seduce God, and, using an epic slight of hand put himself inside god. A few months later, and Pun-pun is literally the son of god, then, he uses the same tactic previously discussed to go forward in time to a more modern day, where he uses his infintley high cha to bluff people into beleiveing he's the son of god, and then prooves it by using his infintley high balance check to walk on water, which, from memory, is DC 100.

His CON score is so high that he could stabilize himself and heal after nine days on Golgotha, then pick himself up and wander out of the crypt he was interred in.

Chronos
2007-11-16, 04:19 PM
I think the OP is assuming a being with only the ludicrously high ability scores, but not any of the other Pun-pun abilities. In which case, it's still harder to find things he can't do than can.

His Intelligence means that he can buy ranks in every trained-only skill in the game, provided he levels up at least once after ascending. With the associated abilities for every skill also being astronomical, he can succeed at any skill check, at any DC (including the epic ones, like "balancing" on air).

His Wisdom, Constitution, and Dexterity mean that all of his saving throws are likewise astronomical, though he still fails on a natural 1.

His Charisma, in addition to fueling diplomancer cheese, would also allow him massive Leadership cheese.

His Strength means that he has enough attack bonus to hit anything (though again, he still misses on a 1), and does enough damage to one-hit-kill anything he hits.

His Dexterity means that his AC (including touch AC) is unassailable (except on a natural 20 from his opponent), and he always wins initiative.

His Constitution means that he has enough hit points to withstand any amount of damage you throw at him.

However, none of his ability scores gives him the capability to increase his movement speed, nor the ability to attack anything further away than the maximum range of a heavy crossbow. So a wizard could still use Expeditious Retreat to keep away from him, and throw save-or-dies at him until he flubs the saving throw.

Tekraen
2007-11-16, 04:20 PM
Pun-Pun's face could launch a thousand ships.

Mewtarthio
2007-11-16, 04:21 PM
Technically, the Balance DC to walk on water is DC 90, not DC 100. As a side note, the Balance DC for a cloud is 120. See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#balance). By the way, those are all extraordinary abilities, so he can even use them on a dead magic plane.

For more creative pursuits:

Use Sleight of Hand to pickpocket someone's soul
Use Disable Device to sabotage the pillars of society, causing modern Earth to descend into chaos and anarchy
And all this time, he's still good, because he can make the Balance DC to balance on the edge between Good and Evil


EDIT: As a side note, even without divine power, Pun-pun needs only to get those Diamond Mind tricks that let you substitute Concentration for saving throws to become invincible.

brian c
2007-11-16, 05:13 PM
His Charisma, in addition to fueling diplomancer cheese, would also allow him massive Leadership cheese.

"Massive" might actually be an understatement. If he has infinite Cha (or at least arbitrarily large) then he has an arbitrarily high Leadership score, and he can have every single being in the multiverse among his followers; technically this requires Pun-Pun to have at least 6 HD, and then his followers all have to be lower level than him, but with infinite ability scores it can't be too hard to level up.

Quietus
2007-11-16, 05:32 PM
However, none of his ability scores gives him the capability to increase his movement speed, nor the ability to attack anything further away than the maximum range of a heavy crossbow. So a wizard could still use Expeditious Retreat to keep away from him, and throw save-or-dies at him until he flubs the saving throw.

Not necessarily true. Isn't there something somewhere that lets you make some really high Tumble check (DC 40 or something) and make a 10' step? The logical progression of this is that you can make higher and higher checks to continue adding 5' to that, which means that with his arbitrarily high dex mod, he can take a single step and circle the world as a free action.

His dex also allows him to slip through a wall of force without problem, and he can use his arbitrarily high Bluff to convince you that he hasn't moved. Due to the height of his bluff success making it so his words BECOME the truth, he can now be in two places at once - both on this side AND the other side of that wall of force.

Jack Zander
2007-11-16, 05:36 PM
Can Pun-Pun create an object that is so heavy he can't lift it?

Callos_DeTerran
2007-11-16, 05:37 PM
I think it should be noted Pun Pun doesn't have 'infinite' ability scores, he has to spend time to increase them and when he stops, they stop going up. This is ignoring the fact of course that he could give himself an ability that raises his ability scores all on their own, but I think those are already discounted.

MCerberus
2007-11-16, 05:38 PM
Pun-Pun can make an aimed shot to your groin in 3.5.



Anyway if he has infinite strength what happens if he does push-ups? Also if his craft checks are infinite, when he starts crafting something shouldn't it appear at the beginning of time?

Assasinater
2007-11-16, 05:48 PM
Can Pun-Pun create an object that is so heavy he can't lift it?

He can create such an object, and then lift it. It's because simple laws of logic don't apply to him.

Oh, and by having an near-infinite Jump score, he can orbit around the earth with a jump.

But before that, with his godlike wisdom, he could see the cheesiness within him, and destroy himself.

Xanos
2007-11-16, 05:50 PM
I think it should be noted Pun Pun doesn't have 'infinite' ability scores, he has to spend time to increase them and when he stops, they stop going up. This is ignoring the fact of course that he could give himself an ability that raises his ability scores all on their own, but I think those are already discounted.
Well, he creates an NI Dex score, then runs back in time to when he started doing his abilities.

And the answer to whether Pun Pun can make an object he himself cannot lift is:
Yes and No.

I mean, there are atoms in the real world can rotate both horizontally and vertically at the same time. So why can't Pun Pun both not lift, and lift, it?

Jack Zander
2007-11-16, 06:00 PM
HA HA! You're all wrong! The answer is yes! Because his scores are not infinite, he can in fact make an object so heavy that he himself can not lift it. One round later he boosts his Strength and can lift it however.

HomerHT
2007-11-16, 06:09 PM
However, none of his ability scores gives him the capability to increase his movement speed, nor the ability to attack anything further away than the maximum range of a heavy crossbow. So a wizard could still use Expeditious Retreat to keep away from him, and throw save-or-dies at him until he flubs the saving throw.

His ability scores don't do that, but his actual abilities do. The premise behind Pun-pun is that he can gain anything he wants by simply shifting to the form that has the ability he wants, transfer it to the familiar, then transfer it back to himself to get it permanently. Due to the crappy wording of the ability he uses to accomplish this, Pun-pun can gain special abilities that don't actually exist, for instance the ability to make a ranged touch attack roll on anything he can see (i.e. EVERYTHING). That's the true power behind Pun-pun...that the very rules of the game don't even apply to him.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-11-16, 06:13 PM
His ability scores don't do that, but his actual abilities do. The premise behind Pun-pun is that he can gain anything he wants by simply shifting to the form that has the ability he wants, transfer it to the familiar, then transfer it back to himself to get it permanently. Due to the crappy wording of the ability he uses to accomplish this, Pun-pun can gain special abilities that don't actually exist, for instance the ability to make a ranged touch attack roll on anything he can see (i.e. EVERYTHING). That's the true power behind Pun-pun...that the very rules of the game don't even apply to him.

Never really got the part about how he makes up new abilities, if theres no form that already has them. But meh, I could care less. Pun-pun annoys me and is one of the reasons I hesitate to even play Forgotten Realms where he can only be.

PirateMonk
2007-11-16, 06:35 PM
Never really got the part about how he makes up new abilities, if theres no form that already has them. But meh, I could care less. Pun-pun annoys me and is one of the reasons I hesitate to even play Forgotten Realms where he can only be.

The Manipulate Form text states that he may grant any extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability. Also, LordofProcastination suggested using epic magic to justify this by creating a creature with the desired nonexisitant ability.

Jack Zander
2007-11-16, 06:38 PM
The Manipulate Form text states that he may grant any extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability. Also, LordofProcastination suggested using epic magic to justify this by creating a creature with the desired nonexisitant ability.

The ability still has to exist, and God (read DM) usually doesn't allow random abilities to be placed on creatures through Epic Spellcasting. Depends on who your God is though.

PirateMonk
2007-11-16, 06:42 PM
The text never specifically states that it must exist, though that logic is completely ridiculous, and DMs also don't allow Pun Pun to begin with.

Chronos
2007-11-16, 07:15 PM
His ability scores don't do that, but his actual abilities do.Right, I said right at the start there that I was restricting my attention (as I think the OP also did) to a hypothetical entity which has the arbitrarily high ability scores, but not any other Pun-Pun-ishing abilities.

Moff Chumley
2007-11-16, 07:37 PM
Pun-Pun could bluff everyone in the multiverse into thinking that he was a higher HD than them, then use the leadership cheese.

Alex12
2007-11-16, 07:55 PM
Stat-Pun could take out the Death Star with ease in a huge number of ways. Jump onto shields from planet, effortlessly avoiding superlaser, Escape Artist through the shields, land on hull, Strength check to rip the thing in half. Or Bluff Palpatine into giving Stat-Pun the position of Emperor. Or Diplocheese everyone on the station into being fanatically loyal to him.

Xuincherguixe
2007-11-16, 08:16 PM
Bluff the universe into thinking it doesn't exist?

Xefas
2007-11-16, 08:54 PM
Could Pun-Pun reach down and grab the planet he is currently standing on, and lift it so as to use it as a Club?

What sort of damage would a Club that size deal?

EDIT: Would the planet count as a Reach Weapon, or just hit the 5ft square in front of Pun-Pun?

Suzuro
2007-11-16, 09:10 PM
Well, clubs aren't reach weapons, so, five feet. Although, he could throw it.

-Suzuro

UglyPanda
2007-11-16, 09:20 PM
He could use his infinite wisdom to locate a planet with untold riches. He uses slight of hand to instantly steal the riches and hide all evidence that he was ever there. He then punches the planet until it becomes a volcanic wasteland. He remains neutral good because he steals the goodness from the remaining inhabitants and then polymorphs them into demons. He then bluff them into thinking their planet is hell and has always been this way.

He can use slight of hand to hide a dimension from its own inhabitants.

daggaz
2007-11-16, 09:37 PM
After a long and very disturbing conversation with my brother, I decided to ask you guys out here.

With Pun Pun, you gain never-ending attributes, meaning you can do.. Basicly everything. I've toyed around with this idea for a bit, now.
Some of the stuff me and my brother have come up with, is:

With a never-ending Wisdom score, Pun Pun would have an incredible hearing. Meaning?
He can hear the small impulses in your brain. And with his incredible sense of logics and such and such, he can decode them into, you guessed it, being able to hear what you think.

With his enormous Wisdom score again, his eyes would be amazing. By beating a high enough DC, he should be able to see.. Everything.
And if he can see everything, and if we follow the theory saying, that if you know the position of every atom in the universe, you can basicly predict the future, Pun Pun can, with his eyes, predict the future.

With his Strength score, he is so strong, that if he pushes the air, the air travels so fast, that it becomes plasma.

I think you get my point. What else can Pun Pun do?

Puh-lease. Think it thru first. Just because you have infinitely good sight/hearing (and that is really stretching realism thru the meatgrinder of RAW taken beyond its normal scope), doesnt at all mean that you can hear or see things that DO NOT EXIST! If there are no light particles hitting your eyes from a certain source, you cannot see it. I dont care how high your wis modifier to spot is. (and another thing, spot is the ability to notice things with your eyes that might otherwise go unnoticed in your otherwise crowded field of vision, it is not the physical ability of sight).

I wont even begin to describe the preposterous notion that individual charge carrying molecules inside of cells inside of somebodies skull somehow manage to set up vibrations in the air molecules which arent swamped out by random thermal motion of said medium. Ok...I did. Another dead catgirl, but she did not die in vain.

Archangel Yuki
2007-11-16, 10:05 PM
Ok, so according to the "speed" rules of pun-pun, due to enormous strength, when he jumps, he exceeds the speed of light.
Problems start there.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-16, 10:27 PM
Not really. Small atoms/whatever their name was can go faster than the speed of light. Why couldn't Pun-Pun do it?

Darkantra
2007-11-16, 10:46 PM
With an infinitely high craft score Pun Pun could create self-replicating nano-machines with artificial intelligence. With a built in function to obey his every command they are told to all be 1st level fighters with Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. He then sends them out into the world to constantly trip millions of innocent peoples. Hundreds of nano-machines would attach to a single commoner, repeatedly making trip checks until one of them rolls a 20 and the commoner rolls a 1.

Alternatively, the nano-machines don't take Improved trip, and every person afflicted with the nano-machines begins swinging at themselves wildly, critically missing on the inevitable roll of 1 and damaging themselves into unconciousness.

Mewtarthio
2007-11-16, 11:00 PM
Puh-lease. Think it thru first. Just because you have infinitely good sight/hearing (and that is really stretching realism thru the meatgrinder of RAW taken beyond its normal scope), doesnt at all mean that you can hear or see things that DO NOT EXIST! If there are no light particles hitting your eyes from a certain source, you cannot see it. I dont care how high your wis modifier to spot is. (and another thing, spot is the ability to notice things with your eyes that might otherwise go unnoticed in your otherwise crowded field of vision, it is not the physical ability of sight).

I wont even begin to describe the preposterous notion that individual charge carrying molecules inside of cells inside of somebodies skull somehow manage to set up vibrations in the air molecules which arent swamped out by random thermal motion of said medium. Ok...I did. Another dead catgirl, but she did not die in vain.

Two problems:

1) First off, there are no rules in DnD about this so-called "retina" of yours. Skeletons don't even need eyes to see, and I'm not sure if a dragon should technically be able to read books.

2) Secondly, it's moot anyway, since Pun-pun can already read minds as an extraordinary ability by making a DC 100 Sense Motive check (opposed by Bluff, yes, but who's going to make that?).

TheLogman
2007-11-16, 11:08 PM
You guys forget, he can also grant himself any Psionic power/Utterence/Soulmeld/Supernatural ability/spell-like ability/extraordinary ability/Spell/Existing Creature ability/Nonexisting creature ability/Shadowspell/Stance/ect. as an Extraordinary ability. So umm, he can really do anything, and time he wants.

Think about it, infinite Genesis Planes, and later on, the soulmeld that grants reach (He has infinite Soulmeld points due to his infinite Wis score) to be able to hit anything on the plane, if anything, even a bacterium moves, he can make an attack of opportunity. Then, he surrounds himself in a bubble of spells that create Planar Breaches, (Planar Handbook) allowing him to make an attack of opportunity against every moving thing, any spell/Psionic power made, any skill check, in the entire Multiverse. With infinite Strength, he only misses on a 1 against any AC, but since he granted himself to ignore natural 1's, ( A Luck feat I think ) he really kills everything, anytime anything does anything.

Doresain
2007-11-17, 12:01 AM
so do you think that there is another uber being out there by the name of Nup Nup that plans on doing battle with Pun Pun at some point in the future?

if so, i got dibs on front row seats

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-17, 12:26 AM
I think Pun-Pun's first act as a capital-G "God" was to close off the Pun-Pun exploit forever. He then became patron deity of rules exploiters.

Trying to determine what he can do is pointless. He's an infinite, multiversal being.

Trying to determine who he can fight is pointless. He either automatically wins or, if faced with an equally infinite being (L-sama from Slayers, etc.), they push. Maybe they sit down for tea and checkers.

That's it. Nothing more to see here.

Jack Zander
2007-11-17, 12:29 AM
What about Pun-pun vs Chuck Norris?

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-17, 12:33 AM
Chuck Norris is only a universal power. Pun-Pun, being multiversal, still wins.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-11-17, 12:39 AM
so do you think that there is another uber being out there by the name of Nup Nup that plans on doing battle with Pun Pun at some point in the future?

if so, i got dibs on front row seats

I think Nup-nup was already created. It's the polar opposite of Pun-pun, with zero hit points and the ability to be completely and utterly useless in anything and everything. The only thing it can do is poorly attempt Craft and Perform checks on random things (ie Basketweaving or Beatboxing). Furthermore, the class abilities Nup-nup has are rendered completely irrelevant, as his Intelligence is a single digit number and his class features depend on Intelligence.

Also, if Pun-pun has theoretically infinite mental ability scores, can Pun-pun divide by 0 and get a real answer?

Yahzi
2007-11-17, 01:57 AM
Use Sleight of Hand to pickpocket someone's soul
Use Disable Device to sabotage the pillars of society, causing modern Earth to descend into chaos and anarchy
And all this time, he's still good, because he can make the Balance DC to balance on the edge between Good and Evil

Now that's some good stuff! :smallbiggrin:

Yahzi
2007-11-17, 02:01 AM
Small atoms/whatever their name was can go faster than the speed of light.
Er... what?

If you mean tachyons, they're not atoms, just particles, but more important, they're only theoretical. We don't know that they actually exist yet.

The speed of light - it's not just a good idea, it's the law.

:smallbiggrin:

Serenity
2007-11-17, 02:15 AM
Technically speaking, it's perfectly possible to move faster than light. You just can't accelerate past that speed. So if Pun-Pun is able to go from stationary to superluminal speeds in literally no time at all...

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-17, 02:50 AM
I think you get my point. What else can Pun Pun do?

Everything. Obviously.


Technically speaking, it's perfectly possible to move faster than light. Actually, D&D rules allows a string of level 1 commoners to accelerate any object they can lift past the speed of light by passing it from one person to the next, thanks to the 6 second combat round.


so do you think that there is another uber being out there by the name of Nup Nup that plans on doing battle with Pun Pun at some point in the future?

if so, i got dibs on front row seats

I take it you have not heard of Earl, the tiny viper who surpassed the master/familiar relationship during one of his temporary moments of limitless power in the ascension process.


What about Pun-pun vs Chuck Norris?

Since Pun Pun knows every ability, he also can use Chuck Norris's roundhouse kick against him.