Horrible Build: The Crippled Knight

[Garresh]

So I've always wanted to play a wis fighter that abuses shillelagh. After all, a fighter should be as wise as he is strong. I've also wanted to play an abjuration wizard in heavy armor using armor of agathys to become the tankiest person in the party.

And I realized, I could combine these together to create the ultimate minmaxed build. The Cripple Knight, or alternatively, the Mental Gymnast.

Now when I say minmaxed, I don't necessarily mean optimized. Viable, not optimized. When I say minmax I mean dumping ALL physical attributes and pumping ALL mental attributes.

Yes, you put 8 in str dex con and 15 in int wis cha. Here's the idea...

Start as a mark of warding dwarf. Use the optional attribute swap from tasha to give +2 int and +1 Wis. This will give you 17 int and 16 wis. Take your first level in Cleric, and choose the NATURE domain to grab shillelagh. By doing this you don't lose a single spell slot level, and can get 20 armor as soon as you get your full plate. Dwarf means no speed penalty due to strength.

From there put all your levels in abjuration wizard and pump Int followed by Wis. You can half feat to pick up some utility or tricks, or just put 1 in charisma and be able to be socially capable too. Grab booming blade or green flame blade so you can melee(sort of), and proceed to wade in.

Using level 3 as an example, you'll only have 13 hp, but you gain 10 from armor of agathys and 7 from arcane ward, bringing you up to a respectable 30. With your 20 AC and Shield spell you can became the hardest party member to kill despite having an 8 in Con and a d6 hit die.

Your focus shouldn't be on doing damage in melee. That's just your neutral option when you don't have anything to cast. Drop control spells and force the enemy to hit you, killing themselves in the process. You can always hang back, but with your stats you're pretty comfortable in either location.

If you want to play up the tank angle, you can grab Sentinel or Warcaster. Avoid Resilient Con or Heavy Armor Master. Not because it's bad, but because it would sabotage the theme of the build.


Pros to the build:
Hilarious
Rivals Eldritch Knight for stupidly high AC
Can technically sort of almost fill any role(Get deception and persuasion from cleric and background to Face)
Only loses 1 level of spell progression and doesn't lose any levels of slot progression.

Cons to the build:
Low damage when not being attacked or casting Fireball
Can get seriously screwed by antimagic effects
Wastes spell slots compensating for low hp
Forced to take Nature domain

If anyone actually cares I can stat it up for comparison sake, but I think yall can get the gist from this.

[Christew]

Huh. That's actually surprisingly viable. I mean, not good or anything -- you'll crumple like paper the first time you got caught in an aoe, but interesting thought experiment.

Wouldn't your hp at 3 be only 11 (6-1+4-1+4-1)?

[Greywander]

Now when I say minmaxed, I don't necessarily mean optimized.
Optimization/minmaxing often incurs accusations of powergaming. Which, fair enough, often it is. But a good question is, "Optimized for what?" As someone who is a perfectionist, I see optimization more like solving a puzzle; how can I put this build together to become the best possible at doing something very specific? But sometimes you get a weird concept in your head, something that isn't necessarily very effective or viable, but is interesting. These can be really fun to build, and part of the challenge is trying to both optimize for that specific concept while maintaining viability for the times you're not doing that one specific thing.

Perhaps the best examples of this are the concepts that require little investment to optimize for. Grapplers are one, as all you really need is a decent STR score, Extra Attack, Athletics expertise, and a way to get advantage on STR checks. A Rune Knight with Skill Expert has everything they need, and any time they're not grappling they're still a fighter. A more complex one is the Eldritch Sniper concept I came up with, which relies on mixing Genie's Wrath from Genielock to add some elemental damage to EB with Dragon sorc's Elemental Affinity to add even more elemental damage, while also maximizing range via Eldritch Spear, Spell Sniper, and Distant Spell. It requires a fair bit more investment, but at the end of the day I'd still have a hard-hitting EB even at closer ranges, and a slew of warlock and sorcerer spells that I wouldn't even be able to use at the extreme range I'd have on my EB.

Point is, optimization isn't necessarily about making a powerful character that will steamroll everything the DM throws at you. Optimization is sometimes just about making your character good at something oddly specific while also remaining competent when outside their niche.


So I've always wanted to play a wis fighter that abuses shillelagh. After all, a fighter should be as wise as he is strong. I've also wanted to play an abjuration wizard in heavy armor using armor of agathys to become the tankiest person in the party.

And I realized, I could combine these together to create the ultimate minmaxed build. The Cripple Knight, or alternatively, the Mental Gymnast.
The important part here is that you've laid out what your goal is: a WIS fighter using Shillelagh who is also an Abjurer in heavy armor using Armor of Agathys to be ultra tanky. The problem is that I think you've lost sight of this, and the build you came up with does not support it.


When I say minmax I mean dumping ALL physical attributes and pumping ALL mental attributes.
But why? Your goal is to be tanky, if anything then CON should be one of your highest stats. We've already established that Wisdom is important, and you might need some INT for wizard stuff, but you have no need for CHA.


Take your first level in Cleric, and choose the NATURE domain to grab shillelagh.
What's weird is that this is the first time cleric has been mentioned. Your original concept was a fighter, but I think you're probably on the right track to go for cleric instead. Cleric 1 / Wizard X is a really solid build for a wizard.


Avoid Resilient Con or Heavy Armor Master. Not because it's bad, but because it would sabotage the theme of the build.
Why? Because they boost physical stats? Please refer back to your original concept. These are both really solid feats for what you're trying to do, don't be so quick to dismiss them.

Now, there's a couple of ways we could improve on this. First, I'd recommend taking a look at the Conquest paladin. Importantly, they get Armor of Agathys on their oath spells, and at higher levels they deal damage to those who attack them (similar to Armor of Agathys). Paladins are also hella tanky. Ask the DM if you can be a WIS paladin and use a feat to get Shillelagh, and if the DM seems wary of the idea then ask them if they'd prefer you just dip Hexblade instead. High AC, Aura of Protection, and HAM will all make you very resilient, your fear effects and smites will punish the enemy for ignoring you, and Armor of Agathys and Scornful Rebuke will punish them if they do attack you. You basically leave the enemy with no good options, a classic Morton's Fork.

Honestly, though, I wouldn't try to merge these two concepts, they have very little synergy. I can definitely see an Abjurer with Armor of Agathys who punishes enemies for ignoring him by throwing out powerful spells, but hides behind their arcane ward, Mirror Image, and Shield, and if an attack does get throw, you still punish the enemy with Armor of Agathys and Fire Shield. But there's almost no reason for such a character to ever use a physical attack. Shillelagh would be next to useless to such a character, and moreso because it would use WIS instead of INT.

Likewise, a WIS fighter using Shillelagh would need to be built around buffing up their attacks and drawing on the full benefit of their WIS. Keep in mind a straight fighter is going to be dealing 4d8 + 20 average damage, before figuring in their fighting style, and assuming going sword'n'board, so we should hopefully try to at least match that. Arcana cleric lets us take Booming Blade (and/or GFB) as a cleric spell, meaning that it will benefit from Potent Spellcasting. This makes our single attack do 4d8 + 10, and an additional 4d8 + 5 if the enemy moves. Actually pretty decent. Warcaster let's us do this as an Opportunity Attack, which is especially useful because OAs are generally triggered by movement. Add PAM and you can make OAs when enemies approach you, and quarterstaff works for both PAM and Shillelagh (do note you can't use the BA attack with BB, as it's not the Attack action; use Spiritual Weapon instead). If that's not enough damage for you, did into paladin or bladelock (or both) for smites that you can fuel with your many cleric slots. Another interesting feat to pick up is Crusher; when an enemy triggers an OA by moving into your reach, hit them with BB and push them back 5 feet. Now they have to move to get back in melee, and thus take the additional BB damage, or else stand still and use whatever ranged attack they have, if any.

Anyway, I hope this is helpful to you. Sometimes we come up with concepts that D&D just isn't built to fulfill, and I think the combined concept is one of those. Individually, though, either one could be solid.

[Garresh]

I think you're right I "lost sight" of the original goal. But you're also missing the point of this thread. It's a hypothetical example for amusement. Taking an already silly idea to its extreme.

Fwiw, I didn't really elaborate on the backstory idea. I've actually had the idea of the abjurer warrior for years, because I had a specific character in mind. A sickly child of s family of proud knights, who turned to magic to compensate for his frailty. He was naive but strong of will. That's where I got the idea of dumping con. In practice I'd probably not go quite this extreme. But I also considered running human variant instead of dwarf(before Mark of Warding went and changed how I'd build it) despite the speed penalty. After all, how better to represent a sickly knight than have him hobbling around on a staff with a lame leg and a slower speed?

My point is this isn't something you'd play exactly as written. It's similar to punpun or the coffeelock. A silly concept that might inspire a more sensible backstory.

Anywho, whenever I do get around to running my character idea I might still up for dumping physical for rp reasons, but not the point of excess. Just take this thread for what it is. A silly build and an example of how a weird concept can work.

Edit: In my updated build after Tasha, I'd still be pumping mental stats and keeping con somewhat low for rp reasons, but I would be going Life cleric and focusing on staying in melee as a sort of an arcane paladin. He doesn't need to attack with his staff. His staff is for casting and helping him walk. His shield is his true weapon. He'd use lightning lure and non-weapon skills while still focusing on protection. I'd ditch the damage focus entirely. Anyways that's how I'd build my actual character.

[Garresh]

Huh. That's actually surprisingly viable. I mean, not good or anything -- you'll crumple like paper the first time you got caught in an aoe, but interesting thought experiment.

Wouldn't your hp at 3 be only 11 (6-1+4-1+4-1)?

Level 1 is maxed, and it honestly wouldn't crumple. He still has fighter level HP, and can "heal" himself 14 hitpoints with a second level spell slot. Armor of Aga isn't limited to melee damage. It just doesn't get its retaliation at range.

[Christew]

Level 1 is maxed, and it honestly wouldn't crumple. He still has fighter level HP, and can "heal" himself 14 hitpoints with a second level spell slot. Armor of Aga isn't limited to melee damage. It just doesn't get its retaliation at range.
Oh right, you are dipping cleric (8-1+4-1+4-1).

Your "fighter level" HP is reliant on two limited resource features, so pretending that it is your walking around weight is fairly disingenuous. Agree to disagree on the crumpling -- I don't think stacking gimmicks like this is going to stay abreast of level appropriate threats when you are likely to fail important saving throws.

[Foolwise]

Using level 3 as an example, you'll only have 13 hp, but you gain 10 from armor of agathys and 7 from arcane ward, bringing you up to a respectable 30.

Temp HP does not stack in 5e. If you get it from two different sources you must pick one or the other to use.

[quindraco]

Temp HP does not stack in 5e. If you get it from two different sources you must pick one or the other to use.

OP misspoke. Arcane Ward doesn't provide THP at all. It provides a second pool of real hp, which will stack with the THP of AoA just fine.

[Garresh]

OP misspoke. Arcane Ward doesn't provide THP at all. It provides a second pool of real hp, which will stack with the THP of AoA just fine.

Sorry. This. It's established that they stack but I wasn't precise and didn't explain.

[Garresh]

Oh right, you are dipping cleric (8-1+4-1+4-1).

Your "fighter level" HP is reliant on two limited resource features, so pretending that it is your walking around weight is fairly disingenuous. Agree to disagree on the crumpling -- I don't think stacking gimmicks like this is going to stay abreast of level appropriate threats when you are likely to fail important saving throws.

If you pop an armor at the start of the day, it's an extra 2.5 hp per level effectively. Arcane ward is an extra 2 hp per level with change. And if you cast your higher level slot for armor(you are slightly behind in spells known progression), you're gaining back an amount equal to rough 3.5 hp per level. It's a limited resource but not as limited as you think. With upcast armor you're looking at a good amount of ward recharging and a lot of temp hp.

[Christew]

If you pop an armor at the start of the day, it's an extra 2.5 hp per level effectively. Arcane ward is an extra 2 hp per level with change. And if you cast your higher level slot for armor(you are slightly behind in spells known progression), you're gaining back an amount equal to rough 3.5 hp per level. It's a limited resource but not as limited as you think. With upcast armor you're looking at a good amount of ward recharging and a lot of temp hp.
Yup. And that's a significant cost for minimal return in my eyes. I gave you "surprisingly viable," you are not going to convince me that it is anything more than that.

[kaervaak]

How about an Int SAD version? You can still dump str and dex if you want since they're not needed at all for this build.

Mark of warding dwarf - Armorer Artificer 3/Abjuration wizard X

Armorer gives you heavy armor proficiency, ignores the strength requirement, and allows you to cast artificer spells using one of your infusions as a focus instead of needing to use tools. With enhanced weapon, enhanced defense, and mind-sharpener you can be a real force on the battlefield. You can also use guardian model to make yourself a nice taunt target, booming blade + thunder gauntlets to make enemies attack you so you can blast them with AoA, and you only have 1 level of delay in spell slot progression thanks to artificer's rounding up for MCing.

[Garresh]

Yup. And that's a significant cost for minimal return in my eyes. I gave you "surprisingly viable," you are not going to convince me that it is anything more than that.

Lmao. That's totally fair.

[Garresh]

How about an Int SAD version? You can still dump str and dex if you want since they're not needed at all for this build.

Mark of warding dwarf - Armorer Artificer 3/Abjuration wizard X

Armorer gives you heavy armor proficiency, ignores the strength requirement, and allows you to cast artificer spells using one of your infusions as a focus instead of needing to use tools. With enhanced weapon, enhanced defense, and mind-sharpener you can be a real force on the battlefield. You can also use guardian model to make yourself a nice taunt target, booming blade + thunder gauntlets to make enemies attack you so you can blast them with AoA, and you only have 1 level of delay in spell slot progression thanks to artificer's rounding up for MCing.

That actually sounds sick. The arcane ward would be weaker but the abilities synergize better.

[Contrast]

If you pop an armor at the start of the day, it's an extra 2.5 hp per level effectively. Arcane ward is an extra 2 hp per level with change. And if you cast your higher level slot for armor(you are slightly behind in spells known progression), you're gaining back an amount equal to rough 3.5 hp per level. It's a limited resource but not as limited as you think. With upcast armor you're looking at a good amount of ward recharging and a lot of temp hp.

The real weakness here is that Armor of Agathys only lasts an hour. You can't keep it up all day and you're not always going to be able to predict combats ahead of time.

If you get surprised or just fight a combat you aren't expecting, you going to suffer for it.


I planned a similar character once but I admit I cheated and used an Amulet of Health. I was invited to an 8th level 1 shot where we got a rare and uncommon magic item of our choice. The idea was the character had seen a ghost and aged into an elderly man but was determined to hide that fact.

Stats 8 8 8 18 16 16 at level 8 and the Actor feat to hide his frail old man voice and any slip ups. Cleric1/Wizard7 for heavy armour to completely encase this body. Amulet of Health to stop con being terrible and Boots of Springing and Striding so he could wear the armour and move around despite his terrible physical stats.

Didn't end up playing him in the end but I was very fond of plan 'Secret old man'.

[kaervaak]

That actually sounds sick. The arcane ward would be weaker but the abilities synergize better.

One of the big problems with AoA builds is that smart enemies will just ignore you. Armorer artificer is one of the few classes that makes it hard for them to do so, since the thunder gauntlets will impose disadvantage on all their attacks against targets other than you, and you can stack booming blade on top to discourage them from moving. Now their options are to either attack you and deal with your enormous AC and if they can hit you they get to eat a ton of cold damage, or take a bunch of thunder damage, an opportunity attack, and make all their attacks with disadvantage. It's a huge lose-lose situation.

Plus you can easily get 21 base AC (26 with shield) and you'll never fail a concentration check.

[Talionis]

I generically want the crippled Knight idea and would love to optimize it so it’s actually viable. I like is as an old town guard who is well past his physical prime and was never anything special needs to obtain magical power to save his children or grandchildren. They really only know fighting so the magic they chase allows them to be mostly a martial Gish that almost exclusively optimized martial improvements by spell means.

I agree that covering for terrible hit points is the hardest part. So ideas that provide options around the ops premise of martial but dumping all three physical stats seems great.

However I’d be looking for things that still made the character feel physical such as extra attack.

[arnin77]

I generically want the crippled Knight idea and would love to optimize it so it’s actually viable. I like is as an old town guard who is well past his physical prime and was never anything special needs to obtain magical power to save his children or grandchildren. They really only know fighting so the magic they chase allows them to be mostly a martial Gish that almost exclusively optimized martial improvements by spell means.

I agree that covering for terrible hit points is the hardest part. So ideas that provide options around the ops premise of martial but dumping all three physical stats seems great.

However I’d be looking for things that still made the character feel physical such as extra attack.

… tough feat might help?

[Joe the Rat]

I don't think CON10 will violate the principle of the concept - comparatively low, but overall passable for your concept. Toughness could fit here as well - you may be old, and weak, and slow, but you are a stubborn old coot, and tough as gristle.

Every now and then I eyeball Shillelagh Fighter, though more and more I have been thinking Shillelagh Ranger could be worth a go. Maybe not the solid 8s, but low-capped dex, mid-grade armor and primary wisdom for stick swinging, woodlore, and occasional spellwork feels right for a graybearded mountain whateverspecies.


Optimization is sometimes just about making your character good at something oddly specific while also remaining competent when outside their niche.Amen.

[JLandan]

I would just say forget Cha. This guy isn't social. This guy is Sheldon. Dump Cha, and put your Con back to 10.

[Talionis]

I agree you might need tough at level 1