How can I work this character concept? Being a Lich, with a twist.

[jaappleton]

Hear me out.

I want to make a Wizard. And I need help with how to approach my DM about how this would work.

The PC is a Lich. Not an Archlich, not super high up there. Forgotten a lot of his stuff. And frankly, he's bored. Been a few hundred years. Adventurers don't even really come around anymore. Lichdom didn't really turn out quite how they expected, with the whole dark tower reigning terror blah blah. Nah its really just him in an old library and... that's about it.

Problem is? Lost his phylactery. No idea where it is.

And he wants to end this whole thing. But... can't, because the phylactery is gone.

So he joins the party.

Much more of a comedic take than actually playing an evil character.

What I can't figure out is, any normal PC can die. That threat is very real. But liches kind of can't, because of the phylactery.

So... what happens if my character dies in combat? What are some ideas on how this could be handled? Could they die, and show up again the next dawn after a long rest? Its a fairly laid back sort of game, but I do want the actual threat of DEATH to be there, y'know? Kind of removes the tension without it.

[kazaryu]

Hear me out.

I want to make a Wizard. And I need help with how to approach my DM about how this would work.

The PC is a Lich. Not an Archlich, not super high up there. Forgotten a lot of his stuff. And frankly, he's bored. Been a few hundred years. Adventurers don't even really come around anymore. Lichdom didn't really turn out quite how they expected, with the whole dark tower reigning terror blah blah. Nah its really just him in an old library and... that's about it.

Problem is? Lost his phylactery. No idea where it is.

And he wants to end this whole thing. But... can't, because the phylactery is gone.

So he joins the party.

Much more of a comedic take than actually playing an evil character.

What I can't figure out is, any normal PC can die. That threat is very real. But liches kind of can't, because of the phylactery.

So... what happens if my character dies in combat? What are some ideas on how this could be handled? Could they die, and show up again the next dawn after a long rest? Its a fairly laid back sort of game, but I do want the actual threat of DEATH to be there, y'know? Kind of removes the tension without it.

i mean, if we're homebrewing. what if their phylactery was already destroyed and they don't know it (but you do). so this is actually their last life. In fact, there's some paladin out there actively hunting you. They found your phylactery, destroyed it and are now looking for the body itself to finish you off.

alternatively, your phylactery was destroyed the character does know it. but has forgotten how to make a new one. He thought he wanted to be free...but when he actually went to end it, found a new appreciation for life, since now he actually needs to defend it to survive.





idk, something along those lines maybe? the homebrew part would be 'the lich doesn't need the phylactery to survive...only to respawn'.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Revivify can be handled normally, I think, sort of capturing your soul and stitching it back into your body.

Raise dead could be refluffed as a sort of calling spell. Since you need an intact body for the spell anyways, make them use a body that wasn't the one that you got killed in. Make them go graverobbing and expend the diamond/spell slot to call your soul into the new body.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hear me out.

I want to make a Wizard. And I need help with how to approach my DM about how this would work.

The PC is a Lich. Not an Archlich, not super high up there. Forgotten a lot of his stuff. And frankly, he's bored. Been a few hundred years. Adventurers don't even really come around anymore. Lichdom didn't really turn out quite how they expected, with the whole dark tower reigning terror blah blah. Nah its really just him in an old library and... that's about it.
What level are you and the party?

Problem is? Lost his phylactery. No idea where it is. Absent minded professor trope, eh?

IIRC, there is an undead template for PCs in the latest Ravenloft book, and there was on in the UA. You going to use those? If he's hundreds of years old, make him a dwarf.

[Amnestic]

Rather than regenerating at your phylactery (since you don't know where it is, and that would solve your problem instantly) or regenning within one long rest, maybe up the timescale?

If you die, your spirit gets released temporarily and attempts to find a new body to inhabit, which will take a year to do. The process can be sped up with the proper application of magic (either the DM makes a new spell specific for this or just repurposes the existing Revivify/Raise Dead/Resurrection stuff), either putting you back in your old body or putting you into a new one that they find and use.

For an immortal lich, a year floating around in the ether isn't the end of the world, but it is essentially taking your character out of the campaign without some significant downtime, which means that death is still something for the players to fear, even if the character isn't super bothered.

[jaappleton]

What level are you and the party?
Absent minded professor trope, eh?

IIRC, there is an undead template for PCs in the latest Ravenloft book, and there was on in the UA. You going to use those? If he's hundreds of years old, make him a dwarf.

Level 10 or 11. Maybe a little later, depends how long my current character goes before biting the dust.

[Christew]

i mean, if we're homebrewing. what if their phylactery was already destroyed and they don't know it (but you do). so this is actually their last life. In fact, there's some paladin out there actively hunting you. They found your phylactery, destroyed it and are now looking for the body itself to finish you off.

alternatively, your phylactery was destroyed the character does know it. but has forgotten how to make a new one. He thought he wanted to be free...but when he actually went to end it, found a new appreciation for life, since now he actually needs to defend it to survive.





idk, something along those lines maybe? the homebrew part would be 'the lich doesn't need the phylactery to survive...only to respawn'.
I would take this angle, and I don't think it technically requires homebrew.

"If it has a phylactery, a destroyed lich gains a new body in 1d10 days, regaining all its hit points and becoming active again. The new body appears within 5 feet of the phylactery."

"If" implies that there can be a lich without a phylactery. Presumably destroying the phylactery destroys the lich's ability to resurrect, not the lich itself. Plus destroyed phylactery sidesteps the simple solution to lost phylactery being die > resurrect > search thoroughly within 5ft of where resurrected.

[RSP]

I like the destroyed phylactery. Another option is they used Wish (or a wish from a magic item) to make themselves mortal again.

This keeps them at PC power level while maintaining the background.

[KorvinStarmast]

Level 10 or 11. Maybe a little later, depends how long my current character goes before biting the dust. OK, a little later I'll see what I can dream up for a level 11 dwarf wizard/lich thingy. Can't at the mo.

[Abracadangit]

Benevolent lich players unite! Did your Wizard just recently become a lich? Or are you guys starting the campaign at level 10 or 11?

If you're sold on the Wizard, don't let me stop you, but the Undead Patron for Warlocks from Van Richten's is almost tailor-made for someone who wants to play a benevolent lich. Comes with a prof-bonus-per-day "lich mode" (temp HP, fear immunity, can frighten enemies with attacks), at level 6 you get bio-immortality (no need to eat, drink, or breathe), the ability to turn damage spells into necrotic damage, AND you get a bunch of necromancy tricks as patron spells.

But if you're sticking with the Wizard and just want tips on how to come back after death, you can feel free to steal what I did.

When my lich died, rather than come back all at once, his magic would slowly self-resurrect him, but piece-by-piece. The head was always first at the next long rest -- could use all the senses, talk, and only cast cantrips, but someone had to carry my head while it snidely wisecracked on everything. Then I had to roll for which piece came back first on a d20, with different roll ranges corresponding to different body parts -- one leg meant I got half my movement speed back, one arm meant I could cast normal spells again but had disadvantage on anything involving Str or manual dexterity, etc. And everything was back after a few long rests.

Obviously there's a lot of RAW-stretching going on there that your DM would have to okay, and you have to be all right with your lich being comedic at times, but it worked out well for my lich, since he was already an acerbic, Alan Rickman-esque character, so then when he came back as a head, he lost none of his zing. "Don't think you scare me for a second," he'd say as the enemy spellcaster drew near. "I've got more magic in my molars than you have in your entire body."

[jaappleton]

Regarding Undead Patron

I find the Warlock spell slots to be often crippling. I am always filled with anxiety about using them when they are so precious. I wholeheartedly agree it's a well made subclass and fits incredibly well, just don't have a desire to be a Warlock and deal with those issues.... maybe. I'll dig into it a little more when I can.

The implications of a Lich WITHOUT a phylactery is quite interesting. Maybe Wish was cast on me years ago, and I forgot. So I THINK there is a phylactery out there somewhere with my name on it, but no, it's just the effect of Wish that keeps me coming back?

[Abracadangit]

Regarding Undead Patron

I find the Warlock spell slots to be often crippling. I am always filled with anxiety about using them when they are so precious. I wholeheartedly agree it's a well made subclass and fits incredibly well, just don't have a desire to be a Warlock and deal with those issues.... maybe. I'll dig into it a little more when I can.

Totally understand. Pact magic is weird compared to other casters' spell availability, and you have to play with a group who's cool with short-resting after every other encounter, or else you're playing a sucky resource management game all the time.

If you're buying your class levels upfront, maybe consider taking an Undead Warlock dip, at least for the "lich mode," and then Wizard for the rest of the levels.

One day, Warlock will get re-spun into a full casting class. One day!

[Kuulvheysoon]

Totally understand. Pact magic is weird compared to other casters' spell availability, and you have to play with a group who's cool with short-resting after every other encounter, or else you're playing a sucky resource management game all the time.

If you're buying your class levels upfront, maybe consider taking an Undead Warlock dip, at least for the "lich mode," and then Wizard for the rest of the levels.

One day, Warlock will get re-spun into a full casting class. One day!

Honestly, I'd prefer that they move away from casting entirely and go back to their more 3.5E roots, being the masters of at-will magic. But at least it'd be more consistent in power levels throughout the day?

[jaappleton]

Totally understand. Pact magic is weird compared to other casters' spell availability, and you have to play with a group who's cool with short-resting after every other encounter, or else you're playing a sucky resource management game all the time.

If you're buying your class levels upfront, maybe consider taking an Undead Warlock dip, at least for the "lich mode," and then Wizard for the rest of the levels.

One day, Warlock will get re-spun into a full casting class. One day!

My favorite thing to do Warlock is to take the the Spell Point system from the DMG and adapt it to their number of spell slots, refreshing on a short rest. Provides much greater flexibility in casting while keeping them short rest oriented.

Mystic Arcanum remains untouched.

[Man_Over_Game]

You could have done something (or someone else could have) that tampered with the phylactery, or maybe you stuck it inside your skull or something for safekeeping. Problem is, it's making you lose your marbles, so you have no idea where you put it AND every time you revive you lose experience.

That'd be a good enough detriment for me to feel like it's fair with other players. Sure, you revive for free, but they keep their experience for the cost of a Resurrection spell. It does set both a character and a player goal to not die, making the mechanics a part of the theme.

I'd probably estimate about 3 adventuring days' worth of experience per death. That's a sizeable punishment, yet totally recoverable.

[Abracadangit]

Honestly, I'd prefer that they move away from casting entirely and go back to their more 3.5E roots, being the masters of at-will magic. But at least it'd be more consistent in power levels throughout the day?

I'm of two minds -- it would definitely be nice for the Warlock to settle on something instead of being the weird at-will/slots hodgepodge that they are now. And they had a cool niche in 3.5e, less spellcaster, more magical bargainer who had a handful of dark-magic-themed-superpowers that they could use whenever they wanted.

But whenever I'm teaching someone new how to play and we get to the Warlock, I have to explain "Now they don't have a lot of spells, but they recharge faster, and they get to sit on this eclectic collection of class abilities that make up for fewer spells," almost everyone says "Mmm, pass." The Warlock's in a weird spot - they're narratively and thematically spellcasters, but they don't have that many spells, so when you try to sell it to new players, they're like "Why would I play a dark wizard who has less spells than everyone else." You can tell them all about how rad Eldritch Blast is, the many uses of a pact familiar, and so on, but when people want to play a spellcaster, they want spells. So Warlocks have this odd marketing problem, and I don't know if it'd be solved with a switch to everything at-will. Maybe turn the Warlock into a full dark-magic-themed caster, and spin the at-will components off into its own class, the Mystic or the Hexborne or something. Or let the at-will stuff spill into Sorcerer...? Eh? Food for thought.


My favorite thing to do Warlock is to take the the Spell Point system from the DMG and adapt it to their number of spell slots, refreshing on a short rest. Provides much greater flexibility in casting while keeping them short rest oriented.

Mystic Arcanum remains untouched.

That has 100% never occurred to me, yet is a fantastic idea. I typically steer away from spell points, having gotten too used to slots over the years, but for Warlocks, it really makes sense - this way they get the versatility they feel like they're missing, without upsetting balance or class cohesion.

Thank you for the suggestion - I'll try that out on the next Warlock I play.

I also apologize - didn't mean to derail your thread with Warlock talk, ha ha.

Flavor point - do you know how your Wizard ended up as lich? Self-experimentation, forced into lichdom by someone else, uncovered a cursed artifact? That might have some implications for how they come back from the dead.

[RogueJK]

IIRC, there is an undead template for PCs in the latest Ravenloft book

Yep. The Reborn. Can be applied over top of any existing race (basically overwriting any racial abilities other than skill proficiencies and flying/climbing/swimming speeds), or used as a standalone race itself. Gets you advantage against poison and death saving throws, and resistance to poison damage, plus removes the need to eat/drink/sleep/breathe, along with the option to give yourself a d6 bonus to skill checks a few times per day.

Perfect for a Lich.


Regarding Undead Patron

I find the Warlock spell slots to be often crippling. I am always filled with anxiety about using them when they are so precious.

The good news is that, if you're starting at Level 11, you'd already have the 3rd Warlock slot, along with your separate 6th level Mystic Arcanum. So it wouldn't hurt as much as Warlock 1-10, since you'd effectively have about twice as many spell slots as a lower level Warlock.

Tomelock with Book of Ancient Secrets rituals also expands your daily casting ability.

As do some of the other Invocations, like Undying Servitude, Far Scribe, Chains of Carceri, Armor of Shadows, etc., that allow you to cast spells without using slots.

Then take the Fey Touched and/or Shadow Touched feat for +1 CHA and two additional spells cast per day.

While still not as much as a Wizard, that's a lot more spellcasting options than the traditional "two per short rest" Warlock.

[Temperjoke]

What if they're just a Reborn wizard who's been around for a while? They're not actually a lich, but everyone kept assuming they were, and they got tired of arguing with people about it, so just went with it, and then forgot that they weren't? That would explain about the missing phylactery, and add an interesting story point if the "lich" did happen to get killed.

[Unoriginal]

You could go the "PC is starting to become a Demilich due to not having fed their phylactery for so long, and it's screwing up with their mind, memories and magic" road.

So PC *was* an arch-wizard once... but now they're an Undead Tome Warlock with the Reborn lineage.

[Kol Korran]

Hmmmm... An interesting (and amusing!) idea. But how about the following:
You DIDN'T lose your phylactery. You have it on your person at all times! But there is a catch... You see, when you were but a "young" lich, ambitious, super clever and cunning, you researched and invested your mighty mind and magic to make the phylactery indestructible! You also created an epic spell, that erased all knowledge of how to destroy it, and obscured all divinations on the matter. You also enchanted it so it would return you, in case it was stolen and taken a great distance from you. Heroes tried to destroy it, and since they couldn't, they tried to steal it, trap it, encage it, and whatever, but your supreme clever magic overcame all that!

But, as the centuries passed, you became aware of 3 aggrevating facts:
1. Life as a lich is boooooring. Been there, done that, can we please end this already? But the wretched, damned, frustrating phylactery is indestructible! Arrrghhh!

2. Reincarnating is painful and wrecking as hell! And it also made you... Forget stuff, more and more... (Till you are about 10-11th level? And also forgot a lot of plot significant info?). You HATE reincarnating. You have any idea how bloody aweful it is to grow a whole undead body from nothing?

3. That awesome spell that erased all knowledge of how to destroy it? Well, in hindsight, you should have excluded yourself from it... Not even you know how to break the damned thing apart! If the old you could teleport back in time to the young you, you'd give yourself such a whooping and talking to!

So, you are a depressed lich, with suicidal ideation, who's own previous actions made it so you can't "fully" die, you don't know how to untangle the mess, and you really hate reincarnating.

Why did you join the group? In hopes they may find/ stumble upon a way to finally destroy the phylactery. After all, that is what heroes do, right? Solve unsolvable mysteries, defeat impossible challenges and all that jazz, right? Might be worth a shot, who knows?

I think the concept could really work out well comically- the jaded, depressed, cynical, sarcastic and blunt humor of an ancient person who's seen it all (It's blue), been everywhere (Not much to write home about really), done it all (Meh, ruling an evil undead empire, and manipulating the fabric of the multiverse ain't all it's cracked up to be, you know? Waaayyy too much paper work, and so little time for your own hobbies. Ain't worth the hassle, believe me!) Who Just. Wants. To. Die. Already!

If you know the Hitchhiker Guide to The Galaxy series, think of Marvin the robot (the books, not the aweful movie!).

Mechanically:
-------------------
# The 1d10 days for reincarnation is punishment enough for "dying" I think (possibly with lost xp as suggested above).

# There are also other matters to address, such as your undead immunities, paralizing touch, and other lich abilities.But with some homebrew with the GM, including some hindrances if the benefits are too high (such as being hated by most other beings, subject to turn undead, perhaps healing/restoring yourself differently than most, or just "forgetting" how to use some of your powers) this can be worked out.

Good luck with your concept!

[clash]

See if you can get a friendly cleric in the party to cast death ward on you each day. It will simulate the lich effect you're going for

[Temperjoke]

Had a fun thought this morning about this.

What if you aren't the Lich, but were created by the Lich as a double? The Lich created you to look like him and act as a body double, so people would come after you, and not the Lich. He left you in a secondary hideout library. The Lich didn't want all of his secrets to risk being revealed, which is why he didn't use a simulacrum (who would know everything he did). He gave you enough of his memories to make it plausible that you've forgotten stuff over time. It would explain why you don't possess as much power or evilness as a true lich, and have no idea where your phylactery is. Maybe sometime after you were created, the actual Lich and his phylactery was properly destroyed, which just left you to your hallow existence?

[jaappleton]

Had a fun thought this morning about this.

What if you aren't the Lich, but were created by the Lich as a double? The Lich created you to look like him and act as a body double, so people would come after you, and not the Lich. He left you in a secondary hideout library. The Lich didn't want all of his secrets to risk being revealed, which is why he didn't use a simulacrum (who would know everything he did). He gave you enough of his memories to make it plausible that you've forgotten stuff over time. It would explain why you don't possess as much power or evilness as a true lich, and have no idea where your phylactery is. Maybe sometime after you were created, the actual Lich and his phylactery was properly destroyed, which just left you to your hallow existence?

So I'm not a Lich

But.... I think I am.

I like this! Think it solves pretty much everything!

[Temperjoke]

So I'm not a Lich

But.... I think I am.

I like this! Think it solves pretty much everything!

:smallbiggrin: I'm glad I could help! Honestly, it's a really neat character idea that I may use myself sometime... >_>