Thaumaturgy - why is this not on the Bard's cantrip spell list?

[KorvinStarmast]

Thaumaturgy, Transmutation cantrip, Casting Time: 1 action, Range: 30 feet, Components: V, Duration: Up to 1 minute


You manifest a minor wonder, a sign of supernatural power, within range. You create one of the following
magical effects within range:
• Your voice booms up to three times as loud as normal for 1 minute.
Useful for a live performance.

• You cause flames to flicker, brighten, dim, or change color for 1 minute.
Set the mood

• You cause harmless tremors in the ground for 1 minute.
Give the audience a 'feelie' during a song or poem.

• You create an instantaneous sound that originates from a point of your choice within range, such as a rumble of thunder, the cry of a raven, or ominous whispers.
SFX, live performance.

• You instantaneously cause an unlocked door or window to fly open or slam shut.
Get out of the inn when the duke's advisor finds his wife in your chambers ...

• You alter the appearance of your eyes for 1 minute.
SFX for a live show, poetry or song.

Compare to Prestidigitation, which is on the bard list.


This spell is a minor magical trick that novice spellcasters use for practice. You create one of the following magical effects within range:
• You create an instantaneous, harmless sensory effect, such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, faint musical notes, or an odd odor.
SFX for the show.

• You instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire.
Adventuring tool

• You instantaneously clean or soil an object no larger than 1 cubic foot.
OK, I got that nasty stain out of my garment for the big performance.

• You chill, warm, or flavor up to 1 cubic foot of nonliving material for 1 hour.
?. At least this gruel I got when I sang for my supper tastes better. :smallsmile:

• You make a color, a small mark, or a symbol appear on an object or a surface for 1 hour.
Part of the magic show if that's your schtick?

• You create a nonmagical trinket or an illusory image that can fit in your hand and that lasts until the end of your next turn.
More sleight of hand if magic show is your schtick.

It seems to me that Thaumaturgy is just as valid, if not more valid, for a bard to have as Prestidigitation is.
(Aside: for a lot of magic shows/performances, Minor Illusion will be most excellent, and it is on the list)

1. Any idea why it's not on the Bard cantrip list?
2. Any harm in adding it to the Bard cantrip list?

[RogueJK]

Thaumaturgy is the "minor divine miracle" cantrip.

Prestidigtation is the "minor arcane magic trick" cantrip.

Bards, as Arcane casters, got the latter. But there's no harm in giving them access to the former.

[Grey Watcher]

Thaumaturgy, Transmutation cantrip, Casting Time: 1 action, Range: 30 feet, Components: V, Duration: Up to 1 minute

Useful for a live performance.

Set the mood

Give the audience a 'feelie' during a song or poem.

SFX, live performance.

Get out of the inn when the duke's advisor finds his wife in your chambers ...

SFX for a live show, poetry or song.

Compare to Prestidigitation, which is on the bard list.

musical notes, or an odd odor.
SFX for the show.

Adventuring tool

OK, I got that nasty stain out of my garment for the big performance.

?. At least this gruel I got when I sang for my supper tastes better. :smallsmile:

Part of the magic show if that's your schtick?

More sleight of hand if magic show is your schtick.

It seems to me that Thaumaturgy is just as valid, if not more valid, for a bard to have as Prestidigitation is.
(Aside: for a lot of magic shows/performances, Minor Illusion will be most excellent, and it is on the list)

1. Any idea why it's not on the Bard cantrip list?
2. Any harm in adding it to the Bard cantrip list?

Eh, honestly, I'm not sure why Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy, and Druidcraft are even separate spells. They all fall under the heading of "create miscellaneous, mostly cosmetic effect". I guess you could argue that combining them would be a little too versatile for one spell, but getting substantial use out of them usually requires you to already be in something of an edge case. Seriously, how often is cleaning the dress NOW versus in half an hour going to make much difference? So I don't really see the harm in putting Thaumaturgy on the Bard's spell list, no. Especially since poaching other casters' stuff is kinda the Bard's shtick when compared to other arcane full casters.

[firelistener]

Thaumaturgy is the "minor divine miracle" cantrip.

Prestidigtation is the "minor arcane magic trick" cantrip.

Bards, as Arcane casters, got the latter. But there's no harm in giving them access to the former.

This is the core reason for it. I think Pathfinder even has the single spell Prestidigitation, but it functions differently by caster type for the same reasons. The arcane/divine split is one of the "sacred cows" of D&D and its derivatives. 5e simplified this by ditching the distinction in everything besides class spell list availability, while also adding a lot of spells across the lists so they are each pretty versatile.

Also, "thaumaturgy" literally means "miracle working", so if anyone besides Clerics do it, it would probably be called something else anyway.

[Abracadangit]

This is the core reason for it. I think Pathfinder even has the single spell Prestidigitation, but it functions differently by caster type for the same reasons. The arcane/divine split is one of the "sacred cows" of D&D and its derivatives. 5e simplified this by ditching the distinction in everything besides class spell list availability, while also adding a lot of spells across the lists so they are each pretty versatile.

Also, "thaumaturgy" literally means "miracle working", so if anyone besides Clerics do it, it would probably be called something else anyway.

Yeah, that's the size of it.

Fun thought experiment -- maybe bards should have their OWN version that mixes and matches effects from other flavor cantrips, call it "Parlor Tricks" or "Showmanship" or something similar. Keep the voice amplification from Thaumaturgy and the harmless sensory effects, but maybe include something like "Up to five nearby unattended objects tap harmlessly to a rhythm of your choice" or "Ambient light within a 30 ft. radius dims slightly (not enough to call it dim for vision purposes), while a 5 ft. radius column of light surrounding you brightens" to create a spotlight effect, etc, etc.

[Saelethil]

I think it would make sense. They already get a handful of “divine” spells on the base list and as you’ve pointed out, Thaumaturgy’s effects are thematic.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think it would make sense. They already get a handful of “divine” spells on the base list and as you’ve pointed out, Thaumaturgy’s effects are thematic. Healing word, raise dead, lesser restoration, resurrection ... yeah.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Well maybe so Clerics have something nice just for them?
Thaumaturgy’s ability to open doors is quite useful on dungeon crawling. Being 30ft away from the door when it opens has so many tactical uses.

[Chad.e.clark]

Huh, never noticed Thaumaturgy wasn't on the Bard Cantrip list.

But now that I think of it, all of my Bards tend to be Tieflings, so unless they are one of the MToF variants, they all have Thaumaturgy from Innate spellcasting.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well maybe so Clerics have something nice just for them?
Thaumaturgy’s ability to open doors is quite useful on dungeon crawling. Being 30ft away from the door when it opens has so many tactical uses. Fair point that I had not considered, and the only door I recall opening with Thaumaturgy was a window, not a door, in a bar as we tried to escape an escalating barroom brawl. Our wizard usually used mage hand to open doors and trip levers ...

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is the core reason for it. I think Pathfinder even has the single spell Prestidigitation, but it functions differently by caster type for the same reasons. The arcane/divine split is one of the "sacred cows" of D&D and its derivatives. 5e simplified this by ditching the distinction in everything besides class spell list availability, while also adding a lot of spells across the lists so they are each pretty versatile.
Hell, you could probably smoosh all the "minor thematic magic" cantrips together, including the four elemental ones, and have a single generic cantrip that lets you pick 5 abilities off a big list.