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Aleister VII
2021-09-23, 01:14 PM
Hey there so I just read the new Bladesinger, gotta say that I'm pretty satisfied with this new version.

The best part is being capable of casting a cantrip instead of one of my attacks, this makes both BB and GFB much more viable and I don't have to drop them when just attacking gets better (song of victory was it?)

You see, I love and prefer to play a gish who fights with a a magical blade of fire or something similar rather than a EK who swings it's weapon trice regardless of optimization.

Anyways I was thinking in making a new character around this concept, basically wizard 6 for the extra attack + and then Rogue for bonus action disengage and sneak attack, as for weapon I'd like to use the shadow blade as it grants advantage quite easily and is kinda rad.

The question is... Are 6 wizards levels enough? If I take too many this character may end as a full caster since high level Spells are often better than just attacking.
That being said I just get level 3 Spells, and level 4 has some good stuffs like greater invisibility...

Obviously the Rogue subclass will be AT so I'll eventually get some more Spells but that'll very late into the game and I'm not if the campaign will go that far, my group tend to play up to level 15 or 16.

So... Any input on this? I'm missing or overlooking something?

Note that this don't need to be a fully optimized build but at least be a competitive.

Kvess
2021-09-23, 01:40 PM
If my math is right, I think you get more upside by going with a single-class Bladesinger or by dipping for 2 levels of rogue.

Wizard 6 (plus arcane Trickster), casts Shadow Blade at 4th Level and does 3d8 per hit. At Rogue 9, sneak attack nets rogues an additional 5d6 damage. That totals to 6d8 + 5d6 (avg 44.5) if both attacks hit, before adding weapon damage.

You can cast Shadow Blade at 7th level starting at Wizard 13, maxing out the spell's options for casting at a higher level. That nets you 10d8 (avg 45) if both attacks hit. If you go single-class Bladesinger, you also add an extra 5 damage to each hit from song of victory and still have an 8th level spellslot. If you take a 2 level rogue dip, that nets you cunning action, expertise, and an additional 1d6 for Sneak attack.

I'd suggest that an BS-AT multiclass could pick up sentinel to land an additional sneak attack off-turn, but you could also do a significant amount of damage just as a bladesinger.

RogueJK
2021-09-23, 01:41 PM
A Goblin Bladesinger can Bonus Action Disengage without needing 2 levels of Rogue.

quindraco
2021-09-23, 01:56 PM
Hey there so I just read the new Bladesinger, gotta say that I'm pretty satisfied with this new version.

The best part is being capable of casting a cantrip instead of one of my attacks, this makes both BB and GFB much more viable and I don't have to drop them when just attacking gets better (song of victory was it?)

You see, I love and prefer to play a gish who fights with a a magical blade of fire or something similar rather than a EK who swings it's weapon trice regardless of optimization.

Anyways I was thinking in making a new character around this concept, basically wizard 6 for the extra attack + and then Rogue for bonus action disengage and sneak attack, as for weapon I'd like to use the shadow blade as it grants advantage quite easily and is kinda rad.

The question is... Are 6 wizards levels enough? If I take too many this character may end as a full caster since high level Spells are often better than just attacking.
That being said I just get level 3 Spells, and level 4 has some good stuffs like greater invisibility...

Obviously the Rogue subclass will be AT so I'll eventually get some more Spells but that'll very late into the game and I'm not if the campaign will go that far, my group tend to play up to level 15 or 16.

So... Any input on this? I'm missing or overlooking something?

Note that this don't need to be a fully optimized build but at least be a competitive.

You can't use Booming Blade with Shadow Blade.

If you're going for Rogue and Sneak Attack, the extra attack from Bladesinger 6 doesn't add much damage, provided you can land your initial stab. You could just be a pure Arcane Trickster and focus on guaranteeing your one hit lands. The primary reason to be a Bladesinger is the incredible AC from the L2 ability.

Aleister VII
2021-09-23, 02:44 PM
You can't use Booming Blade with Shadow Blade.


I can't? :o

I thought I could and my DM didn't say a thing... I should ask him about that ruling.

RogueJK
2021-09-23, 02:48 PM
I can't? :o

I thought I could and my DM didn't say a thing... I should ask him about that ruling.

You could before, with the original SCAG printing of Booming Blade. But in the Tasha's reprint/errata, Booming Blade was amended to require a "a melee weapon worth at least 1 sp".

RAW, the shadow blade has no monetary value, and therefore can't be used with the reworded BB/GFB. However, your DM may still allow it.

Jeremy Crawford, one of the D&D designers and one of the primary rule errata arbiters, has stated in one of his unofficial rulings via Twitter that he would allow it in his games.

Gignere
2021-09-23, 02:55 PM
You could before, with the original SCAG printing of Booming Blade. But in the Tasha's reprint/errata, Booming Blade was amended to require a "a melee weapon worth at least 1 sp".

RAW, the shadow blade has no monetary value, and therefore can't be used with the reworded BB/GFB. However, your DM may still allow it.

Jeremy Crawford, one of the D&D designers and one of the primary rule errata arbiters, has stated in one of his unofficial rulings via Twitter that he would allow it in his games.

You can still do RAW it but it is annoying and you need to do a bit of juggling. So the way that you use BB is to dual wield, SB and a regular/magic weapon worth 1 SP or more.

You cast BB/GFB using your weapon, take Extra Attack with SB, than bonus action TWF with the SB. Problem with this is without warcaster you’d need to put away your second weapon to cast.

Aleister VII
2021-09-23, 03:11 PM
Interesting, so... Pure or mostly pure Bladesinger with two weapon fighting to make everything legal then, I didn't think about dual wield but I suppose it makes senses, if I get song of victory that's a third instance of INT to damage

Speely
2021-09-23, 04:07 PM
Well I am about to start a game playing as your build tomorrow. We are starting at level 10, so I'll be BS6/AT4. I know pure Singer is more effective on paper, but the combo seems so fun that I gotta try it. Will let you know how it goes :)

JackPhoenix
2021-09-23, 04:15 PM
Another thing is that it makes Blade Ward useful, as you can get resistance to P/B/S weapon attacks (which covers majority of the damage sources in the game) to make that d6 HD last longer and still attack (potentially twice, with TWF or other BA attacks) in the same turn.

And if you're going rogue, you can combine Blade Ward with Uncanny Dodge (UD isn't resistance, just halving damage already halved by resistance) if you get that far.

sayaijin
2021-09-23, 05:51 PM
You can't use Booming Blade with Shadow Blade.



Oh this again. Clearly they didn't think this through very well, but according to sage advice, Shadowblade creates a simple weapon. Simple weapons have values. I've not yet seen a single DM rule that the Tasha's update means the two don't work together anymore, but some people think that a conjured, temporary magic sword isn't valuable.

See relevant Tweet:
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1326925328267177984

RSP
2021-09-23, 06:19 PM
You can't use Booming Blade with Shadow Blade.


This isn’t necessarily true. RAW, Shadow Blade doesn’t have a listed value, however, that doesn’t mean it has a value less than 1 silver.

I don’t see a listed value for the city of Goldenfields anywhere, however, I think it would be foolish to assume it’s value is, therefore, less than 1 sp.

Though if your DM thinks this way, I’d start buying up real estate rather than continue adventuring.

JNAProductions
2021-09-23, 07:18 PM
This isn’t necessarily true. RAW, Shadow Blade doesn’t have a listed value, however, that doesn’t mean it has a value less than 1 silver.

I don’t see a listed value for the city of Goldenfields anywhere, however, I think it would be foolish to assume it’s value is, therefore, less than 1 sp.

Though if your DM thinks this way, I’d start buying up real estate rather than continue adventuring.

The city of Goldenfields also lasts longer than one minute, and can be used by people other than the caster.

Gignere
2021-09-23, 07:34 PM
The city of Goldenfields also lasts longer than one minute, and can be used by people other than the caster.

It should be the same value as hiring someone to cast a level 2 spell though.

RSP
2021-09-23, 07:36 PM
The city of Goldenfields also lasts longer than one minute, and can be used by people other than the caster.

Why do those factors equal SB being less valued than 1sp? Or rather, RAW, what states that equaling SB is worth less than 1sp?


It should be the same value as hiring someone to cast a level 2 spell though.

This is the logic I use as well. If a second level spell has a value of X gps; then Shadow Blade, a 2nd level spell, has X gps value.

JNAProductions
2021-09-23, 07:36 PM
It should be the same value as hiring someone to cast a level 2 spell though.

No?

If I pay, say, 100 GP for someone to cast Augury, I gain tangible benefits from that information.
If I pay some dough for a Continual Flame spell, I now have a torch that never goes out, or a lantern, or something.
If I pay for Enhance Ability (Charisma) before a big important meeting, I perform much better.

Why would anyone pay for someone else to cast Shadow Blade? Except as maybe an assassination, I guess.


Why do those factors equal SB being less valued than 1sp? Or rather, RAW, what states that equaling SB is worth less than 1sp?

"It doesn't say I can't," doesn't mean you can.

Your DM can assign a value to Shadow Blade, but as written, it does not have a value. You could argue it's worthless, and therefore ineligible for Bladetrips. Or you could argue it has some value, and the DM has to define it, meaning it may or may not be eligible. But you can't point to anywhere in the rules stating "Shadow Blade is worth at least 1 SP."

RSP
2021-09-23, 07:39 PM
No?

If I pay, say, 100 GP for someone to cast Augury, I gain tangible benefits from that information.
If I pay some dough for a Continual Flame spell, I now have a torch that never goes out, or a lantern, or something.
If I pay for Enhance Ability (Charisma) before a big important meeting, I perform much better.

Why would anyone pay for someone else to cast Shadow Blade? Except as maybe an assassination, I guess.

If you pay 100 gp for a scroll of SB, than SB has a value of 100 gp.

JNAProductions
2021-09-23, 07:40 PM
If you pay 100 gp for a scroll of SB, than SB has a value of 100 gp.

No, the scroll does.

Also, that's the same logic that says "I have a diamond normally worth 5 GP. I sell it to my Cleric friend for 25,000 GP, so it can be used to cast True Resurrection."

I wouldn't even disallow this at my table-I've never had a player do it, but I don't see it being problematic. It's just not RAW-it is, as said above, at best undefined.

RSP
2021-09-23, 07:43 PM
"It doesn't say I can't," doesn't mean you can.

Your DM can assign a value to Shadow Blade, but as written, it does not have a value. You could argue it's worthless, and therefore ineligible for Bladetrips. Or you could argue it has some value, and the DM has to define it, meaning it may or may not be eligible. But you can't point to anywhere in the rules stating "Shadow Blade is worth at least 1 SP."

And you can’t point to a rule stating it isn’t worth 1 sp, which is why it’s not RAW less than 1 sp.

If you look back, I stated that SB being less than 1 sp wasn’t necessarily true. And it’s not; it’s up to each DM to decide what the value of SB is, as there is no RAW value assigned to it.

JNAProductions
2021-09-23, 07:45 PM
And you can’t point to a rule stating it isn’t worth 1 sp, which is why it’s not RAW less than 1 sp.

If you look back, I stated that SB being less than 1 sp wasn’t necessarily true. And it’s not; it’s up to each DM to decide what the value of SB is, as there is no RAW value assigned to it.

RAW it has no listed value.

Null is not "1 SP or more."

If the material component was "A weapon that is not worth less than 1 SP," it'd work by RAW. But it has to have a value of 1 SP or more.

Null≥1 SP is not valid.

RSP
2021-09-23, 07:54 PM
RAW it has no listed value.

Null is not "1 SP or more."

If the material component was "A weapon that is not worth less than 1 SP," it'd work by RAW. But it has to have a value of 1 SP or more.

Null≥1 SP is not valid.

It is undefined what its value is. RAW, it is a simple weapon. The spell description tells us this.

The SCAG cantrips tell us they require a weapon valued at at least 1 sp.

What’s the value of a simple weapon that’s not listed in the PHB?

JNAProductions
2021-09-23, 07:57 PM
It is undefined what its value is. RAW, it is a simple weapon. The spell description tells us this.

The SCAG cantrips tell us they require a weapon valued at at least 1 sp.

What’s the value of a simple weapon that’s not listed in the PHB?

Null. Nothing is listed, so it's null.

Again-if it was phrased as "A weapon that is not worth less than 1 SP," it'd work. But that phrasing is weird and they didn't use it, for good reason.

A DM can assign a value-and that value can be 0 GP. Or 1 GP, or 1 SP, or 1,000,000 PP. But, if we're using the RAW, it's null.

Speely
2021-09-23, 08:16 PM
I think having BB not be usable with SB is fine, really, though I'd be fine with either ruling at the table. Trade some damage for some utility. Once you get to Summon Fey, you have even more options for higher dmg output in lighted areas as well.

My plan is to use SB in dim light OR use BB/GFB/Blade Ward/Shocking Grasp when the situation calls for more utility. In lit areas, Summon Fey is an excellent source of extra DPR, especially when upcast as a 4th level spell. A Bladesinger always has options, and a multiclass with AT makes action economy crazy good.

I think it's going to be solid sustainable damage with lower spike damage and more versatility, though one could argue that a straight-up BS has more versatility merely by virtue of more/better spells, but that gets into a whole "what is more versatility and how are some kinds better than others" convo.

Kuulvheysoon
2021-09-23, 09:11 PM
It is undefined what its value is. RAW, it is a simple weapon. The spell description tells us this.

The SCAG cantrips tell us they require a weapon valued at at least 1 sp.

What’s the value of a simple weapon that’s not listed in the PHB?


Null. Nothing is listed, so it's null.

Again-if it was phrased as "A weapon that is not worth less than 1 SP," it'd work. But that phrasing is weird and they didn't use it, for good reason.

A DM can assign a value-and that value can be 0 GP. Or 1 GP, or 1 SP, or 1,000,000 PP. But, if we're using the RAW, it's null.

I didn't get one of the first print PHBs, but does anyone know what the Unarmed Strike was valued at when it was on the weapon table?

Seems a relevant question, considering the topic at hand.

(Yes, I'm aware that it got errata'd away and is no longer RAW. But the intent might be relevant)

JackPhoenix
2021-09-23, 10:04 PM
I didn't get one of the first print PHBs, but does anyone know what the Unarmed Strike was valued at when it was on the weapon table?

Seems a relevant question, considering the topic at hand.

(Yes, I'm aware that it got errata'd away and is no longer RAW. But the intent might be relevant)

Yes. In my first printing PHB, the cost of unarmed strike is -

Second Wind
2021-09-23, 10:30 PM
A hand is obviously much more valuable than one silver piece.

Speely
2021-09-24, 12:26 AM
To address your original question more directly aside from cantrip debates, Aleister, I think that if you are going for this multiclass, a good start is to aim for BS6\AT5 with Rogue as your starting class. After that, both classes give you a LOT.

More AT keeps your SA damage rolling and gets you Evasion, plus a better ASI progression if you go to higher levels.

More BS gives you more great spell options. Not to be under-estimated.

Really comes down to what you want to work toward. I think the above split is a pretty good base to start with, though. A Bladesinger with Uncanny Dodge + Absorb Elements/Shield is pretty badass. Add all the extra attack cantrips + Cunning Action into the mix and you have a PC with options, no matter where you go from there.

cyberfunkr
2021-09-24, 01:53 AM
The whole "is SB worth at least 1 sp" is talked about here: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/177347/38834

Basic answer; no.

Paying for someone else to cast a spell doesn't mean the spell has value, you're paying for someone's time and service.
There are no material components for the spell so it doesn't cost the caster a monetary value.
The blade cannot be exchanged in trade as it disappears at the end of the current turn so it has no worth.

As a DM, would I allow it? Eh, seems like cheese to me and I'd say no as it opens the door for more.

sayaijin
2021-09-24, 05:49 AM
We can debate about RAW, but Crawford has clarified that the reason for the change was to require an actual weapon, so RAI BB+SB works fine.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1327132714013782017

Now we can agree that there is no listed value for the spell Shadowblade, but there's also no listed value for the end result of the spell Fabricate. For logical consistency, don't expect to sell whatever you make with Fabricate because the shirt, rope, or bridge don't have listed values in the spell itself.

RSP
2021-09-24, 06:42 AM
From the Basic Rules:

“The Weapons table shows the most common weapons used in the worlds of D&D, their price and weight, the damage they deal when they hit, and any special properties they possess.”

The Weapons chart in the BR/PHB only shows the most common weapons. This means there are other weapons out there. Sabres, bastard swords, cutlasses, katana, etc., could all be in the world, RAW.

Just because they’re not listed, doesn’t mean they’re less than 1 sp.

Likewise, SB is a simple weapon without a listed price; this doesn’t mean it’s less than 1 sp.

Gignere
2021-09-24, 09:15 AM
This debate about SB values is meaningless. I would allow it in my games because they can just back door into the same exact damage by TWF with another weapon as outlined by my post above, once they hit level 6.

So it is zero power creep, given that I prefer to make my players life easier and will rule SB can be used with BB.

sayaijin
2021-09-24, 12:41 PM
You can still do RAW it but it is annoying and you need to do a bit of juggling. So the way that you use BB is to dual wield, SB and a regular/magic weapon worth 1 SP or more.

You cast BB/GFB using your weapon, take Extra Attack with SB, than bonus action TWF with the SB. Problem with this is without warcaster you’d need to put away your second weapon to cast.

I may be misunderstanding you, but this sounds like you use your attack action to attack once with a non-SB weapon (BB) and attack again with SB. Then you bonus action attack a second time with the SB after juggling it to your offhand for TWF.

If the wizard is planning to use their bonus action to attack, then this is for sure a great way to get the same outcome as the RAI ruling. If the wizard plans to do anything else with their bonus action (especially as the OP is thinking of multiclassing rogue), then this falls apart. We can for sure have this discussion somewhere else, but I do think it needs to be had, and I don't agree with the stack exchange conclusion.

JackPhoenix
2021-09-24, 02:35 PM
From the Basic Rules:

“The Weapons table shows the most common weapons used in the worlds of D&D, their price and weight, the damage they deal when they hit, and any special properties they possess.”

The Weapons chart in the BR/PHB only shows the most common weapons. This means there are other weapons out there. Sabres, bastard swords, cutlasses, katana, etc., could all be in the world, RAW.

Just because they’re not listed, doesn’t mean they’re less than 1 sp.

Likewise, SB is a simple weapon without a listed price; this doesn’t mean it’s less than 1 sp.

Indeed. Not being listed is does not mean it has less than 1 sp value.

Being impossible to be bought or sold, as it disappears the moment the caster drops it, however, does.

RSP
2021-09-24, 03:25 PM
Being impossible to be bought or sold, as it disappears the moment the caster drops it, however, does.

Why?

And more importantly, where is that in the RAW?

JNAProductions
2021-09-24, 03:28 PM
Why?

And more importantly, where is that in the RAW?

Please point to the RAW that gives Shadow Blade a value equal to or greater than 1 SP.

If you cannot, then it either does not work RAW, or is undefined RAW and needs DM adjudication. Either way, it’s not something you can say definitely works.

loki_ragnarock
2021-09-24, 03:28 PM
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?

RSP
2021-09-24, 03:42 PM
Please point to the RAW that gives Shadow Blade a value equal to or greater than 1 SP.

If you cannot, then it either does not work RAW, or is undefined RAW and needs DM adjudication. Either way, it’s not something you can say definitely works.

I’ve never said it isn’t up to the DM, I’ve only argued against the idea “it doesn’t work according to RAW”. Because nothing in the RAW states it doesn’t work.

Stating something that doesn’t have a listed value as definitively having a value of less than 1 sp is bad logic, as I’ve shown with the Goldenfields and weapons examples.

If you want another example: certain restaurants will have menus that don’t list what an item costs (such as a “catch of the day”). That doesn’t mean those items are “less than a dollar.”

Edit: also, glad you came around to it being undefined, which is exactly what I stated in previous posts with you.

Kuulvheysoon
2021-09-24, 03:54 PM
The issue that I'm seeing with shadow blade/booming blade is that the latter calls out a specific value for the weapon being used, and RAW a shadow blade has no value. Not "it's worth 0 gp", it's like comparing apples to oranges.

Because the shadow blade doesn't have an associated value, it literally cannot fulfill the requirement for the material component. That's just my take on it, YMMV.

sayaijin
2021-09-24, 04:57 PM
The value of a Shadowblade is undefined. For anyone the caster hands it to it is low value because it disappears almost instantaneously. For the caster it is extremely high in value. I would argue that even when a spell doesn't list a value, the object it creates can still have a value (Fabricate, Goodberry, Create Food and Water, etc.).

In addition, if something is undefined by RAW, don't we defer to RAI?

JNAProductions
2021-09-24, 05:29 PM
I’ve never said it isn’t up to the DM, I’ve only argued against the idea “it doesn’t work according to RAW”. Because nothing in the RAW states it doesn’t work.

Stating something that doesn’t have a listed value as definitively having a value of less than 1 sp is bad logic, as I’ve shown with the Goldenfields and weapons examples.

If you want another example: certain restaurants will have menus that don’t list what an item costs (such as a “catch of the day”). That doesn’t mean those items are “less than a dollar.”

Edit: also, glad you came around to it being undefined, which is exactly what I stated in previous posts with you.

“It doesn’t say I can’t,” doesn’t mean you can.

The rules don’t say I can shoot lasers from my PC’s eyes that deal 10d6 radiant damage to anyone I can see within 300’, no save or hit roll. Can I?

Likewise, if you refer to the rules, absent a DM, you cannot use the bladetrips with Shadow Blade. It has no listed value-and it would need one to qualify.

The (in my mind) most accurate reading is that its value must be set by the DM (and can easily be set to 0) but a DM is still free to set the value to 1 SP or more. But the rules don’t tell us that it is, so it isn’t without a DM.

RSP
2021-09-24, 05:37 PM
“It doesn’t say I can’t,” doesn’t mean you can.

The rules don’t say I can shoot lasers from my PC’s eyes that deal 10d6 radiant damage to anyone I can see within 300’, no save or hit roll. Can I?

Likewise, if you refer to the rules, absent a DM, you cannot use the bladetrips with Shadow Blade. It has no listed value-and it would need one to qualify.

The (in my mind) most accurate reading is that its value must be set by the DM (and can easily be set to 0) but a DM is still free to set the value to 1 SP or more. But the rules don’t tell us that it is, so it isn’t without a DM.

Not apples-to-apples with the laser beam thing, obviously. If you really think that’s the same thing as SB not having a value, we can discuss further.

The value must be determined by the DM to determine whether or not it works with BB/GFB, but that’s not the same as “RAW this doesn’t work.”

Those saying “RAW this doesn’t work” are implicitly saying “DMs must rule SB has a value less than 1sp”, which, again, isn’t true.

Nod_Hero
2021-09-24, 11:31 PM
How about the folks interested in it take the BB/SB conversation to another thread of it's own (or the many others already discussing the same subject) and we go back to helping the OP with their questions?

Sound good?

TotallyNotEvil
2021-09-25, 12:10 AM
How is this discussion at all when the literal writer of the rulebook clarified it with a "yes, it works"?

I'd echo the suggestion for Goblin Bladesinger. Seems plenty rogue-ish, and you'd probably really enjoy the spells.

RSP
2021-09-25, 03:27 AM
How about the folks interested in it take the BB/SB conversation to another thread of it's own (or the many others already discussing the same subject) and we go back to helping the OP with their questions?

Sound good?

The OP was planning on using the combo, so I assume they’re interested in whether it works or not for their build, which is what the thread is about.

BerzerkerUnit
2021-09-25, 05:33 AM
You can't use Booming Blade with Shadow Blade.

If you're going for Rogue and Sneak Attack, the extra attack from Bladesinger 6 doesn't add much damage, provided you can land your initial stab. You could just be a pure Arcane Trickster and focus on guaranteeing your one hit lands. The primary reason to be a Bladesinger is the incredible AC from the L2 ability.

Booming Blade/Shadow Blade is version and/or DM dependent. Based on my perception (reading across multiple forums) it’s widely accepted Shadowblade (as a weapon created by a spell which would require a lot more than 1 gold to have cast) meets the requirements of the cantrips.

BerzerkerUnit
2021-09-25, 06:02 AM
To the OP, hard as I try, if I have any levels in Wizard it’s gonna be 17. Obvious 2 level dip in Hexblade is strong but it always is; so just pure Wizard would be my choice.


Indeed. Not being listed is does not mean it has less than 1 sp value.

Being impossible to be bought or sold, as it disappears the moment the caster drops it, however, does.

This quote reminds me of an interesting question about Revivify etc. what is “a 300 gp diamond” and “are gods moved by market values?”

Diamond values in our world are based on size, cut, and clarity. This means the skill of a craftsman impacts the value, but also and more importantly, economic pressures you can’t know in the moment cause those values to shift. What is a 300 gp diamond today could be 299 tomorrow.

If actual market value is determined by supply and demand then you could just as easily say the value is whatever you can get someone to pay for it. In that case who is “someone?” It could be another party member or the caster. If there are no diamonds and you desperately need one to raise a friend, you’d pay the 300 gladly. And what about lands where diamonds have no value. Maybe gems are just seen as fancy glass. Is resurrection unknown there, or do the gods accept fine wines and livestock sacrifices?

A fine dagger “worth 100gp” is something very few people can afford in most settings. But a lone adventurer, caught in the bath and surrounded by oozes might pay 1000gp for a simple club. A Wizard in need of a weapon would flip a SP to the cosmos for one every time.

I’m not arguing “the rules are dumb, you can just ignore them” just that the meaning of GP values is a lot more flexible than one might think. Example: in some Adventures the cost of some items is inflated due to scarcity and need, so does that mean their spell needs a 600gp diamond, or does it mean they can break their 300gp diamond in half and get 2 castings?

I always allow my Players to turn low value diamonds into higher values with gem cutting tools. So any diamond can be bumped to that 300gp level with a DC 25 tool check. But now I’m digressing ultra hard.

RSP
2021-09-25, 06:24 AM
This quote reminds me of an interesting question about Revivify etc. what is “a 300 gp diamond” and “are gods moved by market values?”

I like the idea of the party returning to town with their fallen comrade under the effect of Gentle Repose to maintain the possibility of a Revivify.

The party’s finances total 250 gp, but they need that 300 gp Diamond for Revivify. The Bard, speaking to the jeweler, emphasizes the noble sacrifice the fallen PC made, they were helping defeat the Orcs that were threatening the town, yada yada yada, and they get the Diamond for 250 gp.

The Revivify spell fails as now that’s only a 250 gp Diamond.

The party, accepting their friend’s death, decides to sell the Diamond to a wealthy, but desperate cleric for 500 gp. That cleric raises his friend using the now 500 gp-valued Diamond.

JNAProductions
2021-09-25, 10:04 AM
I made a thread to move the Shadow Blade and Bladetrip talks elsewhere. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?636875-Shadow-Blade-And-Bladetrips-From-Tasha-s-By-RAW&p=25209147#post25209147)

Apologies for taking up so much of the thread with this, OP. I think it's safe to say you should ask your DM if they'll allow this, though-it's certainly not clearcut!

Witty Username
2021-09-26, 10:24 AM
100% wizard. Or rather, multiclassing doesn't every really have a good time to do it, and single class wizard is robust enough. if the game lasts to the point where your martial skill deteriorates, you have full casting still to keep you relevant and you will still have some decent fighting capacity.