Do you allow Tressym as a Familiar?

[jaappleton]

Why or why not?

For the unaware, its a creature from Storm King's Thunder. Its a winged cat that has permanent See Invisibility within 60ft of itself, and can identify if something is poisoned based on taste, touch or smell.

CR 0.

[Kuulvheysoon]

For Pactlock, without hesitation.

Otherwise... not at 1st level. Maybe 7th+ when a 2nd level spell slot isn't nearly as valuable (but by that point, I'd hope that the PC is attached to their current familiar).

[Segev]

For Pactlock, without hesitation.

Otherwise... not at 1st level. Maybe 7th+ when a 2nd level spell slot isn't nearly as valuable (but by that point, I'd hope that the PC is attached to their current familiar).

Since the familiar is a spirit that takes a form, I have always treated it as the same spirit every time you cast the spell.

[jaappleton]

Since the familiar is a spirit that takes a form, I have always treated it as the same spirit every time you cast the spell.

Unsure if you're familiar (pun intended) with the show, but isn't this how Caleb treated his familiar Frumpkin in Critical Role's second campaign?

[Aett_Thorn]

Unsure if you're familiar (pun intended) with the show, but isn't this how Caleb treated his familiar Frumpkin in Critical Role's second campaign?

Yup, Caleb had some great interactions with it, especially at the end.

[Amnestic]

Yes. See Invisibility is unlikely to be of great use at low levels (because not many things will be invisible) and at higher levels, people will have access to it anyway via other sources most likely.

Owls are still arguably better between flyby and darkvision 120'.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I don't allow content from books I don't own. And I don't own any of the adventure books. So no.

[Burley]

Yes. See Invisibility is unlikely to be of great use at low levels (because not many things will be invisible) and at higher levels, people will have access to it anyway via other sources most likely.

Owls are still arguably better between flyby and darkvision 120'.

I was just going to bring up the Owl, because it's also a regular bird and not a flying cat, so, it can blend in.

Also, as a DM, if I'm worried about a 1st level character having at-will See Invisibility, I just don't use invisibility. I use Fog Cloud, Darkness and hide checks. Maybe throw in some non-threatening invisible characters, like a few faeries hiding that the party could aid.
Plus, one PCs familiar having See Invisibility isn't going to negate an enemy's invisibility, because they're generally not going to be able to accurately pinpoint them for the entire party. Except for Faerie Fire, I guess. But, if the character is always prepared for invisible enemies (at first level) they're gonna be disappointed.

[Segev]

Unsure if you're familiar (pun intended) with the show, but isn't this how Caleb treated his familiar Frumpkin in Critical Role's second campaign?

I dunno. I've never watched Critical Role. I know it's a popular show, but I haven't been interested. I couldn't even tell you the name of any of the characters (aside from Caleb and Frumpkin, since I have them in front of me from the quote I'm quoting here. :smalltongue:)

It's how the wizard in my ToA campaign treated his familiar, Archimedes, who started off as an owl but later tried out flying monkey form and both he and his master decided they liked that better. The same player in a new game we're both in has a...not familiar, but a spell based on the "Beast of the ____" spell from Tasha's and he treats the spirit he summons that way as the same being no matter what form he summons her in. She's usually an albatross for Air or an oarfish for Sea.

[Dork_Forge]

I allowed it for a Wizard once, I wouldn't do it again.

It's just got too many features for a bog standard familiar, for a Chainlock it'd be a bit of a downgrade but I'd allow it no problem.

[ftafp]

Tressym isn't even remotely close to powerful. their only real selling point is seeing invisible creatures, and they do that worse than bats do.

[jaappleton]

Tressym isn't even remotely close to powerful. their only real selling point is seeing invisible creatures, and they do that worse than bats do.

.....It's kind of a hilarious question when you phrase it this way, actually.

[Dork_Forge]

Tressym isn't even remotely close to powerful. their only real selling point is seeing invisible creatures, and they do that worse than bats do.

They don't do that worse than bats? Both the Blindsight and Tressym ability are 60ft.

The Tressym also:

-Has more hp

-A faster fly and walk speed

-A climb speed

-Poison Sense

-Immunity to poison

-Is vastly more intelligent

-Can understand common

[ProsecutorGodot]

I adopted Rillix in SKT, I was so distraught with keeping him safe that I worked out and agreement with the DM to bind him as a familiar. We haven't had a campaign since where anyone really went for having a familiar.

If I were to run a game where someone wanted a Tressym, I think I'd limit it to post level 3 to match Chainlock. It's a bit of an arbitrary restriction but I'm sticking with it.

[Lunali]

I'd allow it, honestly I'm less worried about the person that wants the tressym as a familiar than the one that wants an owl. The tressym is completely unbalanced as a familiar, but it's unbalanced in a way that tends to affect narrative play, and I like to see the familiar come up more in narrative play. The owl is only moderately unbalanced, but in a way that's specialized for combat.

[ftafp]

They don't do that worse than bats? Both the Blindsight and Tressym ability are 60ft.

Blindsight works in darkness, magical darkness, any source of heavy obscurement like fog cloud, and depending on the DM it can penetrate walls or see through illusions.


Has more hp

cool beans. it still dies in one hit



-A faster fly and walk speed

-A climb speed


the fly speed's the only that matters, but it's a paltry abilitt


-Poison Sense

Detect poison and disease is a ritual spell and it's still not worth taking. If someone's going to attack you with poison it's either going to be an attack rider or a cloud of noxious green gas. Either way you'll already be taking steps to avoid it without being told it's poison


-Immunity to poison

if your familiar is in the line of fire of a poison attack or aoe you're already doing something wrong



-Is vastly more intelligent


not really useful



-Can understand common


I will concede that this is a bit more useful when the familiar's primary function minus any gimmicks is scouting. Not all scouting takes place within 100 feet, so this is useful, if you need it to spy on a conversation. Still, I don't find the tressym better than a bat.

If you want to talk about broken familiar options, talk about the Flying Monkeys from Tomb of Annihilation. Familiar hands are the devil's playthings, and flying monkeys are the only ones that don't require pact of the chain and can still fly while using a magic item

[Khrysaes]

Since the familiar is a spirit that takes a form, I have always treated it as the same spirit every time you cast the spell.

I always thought that this was the case.

On a funny/existential horror note, that means you, a chain pact warlock can summon a celestial spirit and force it into the form of an imp or quasit.

Also of note, is that the spirit's sapience, sentience, and intelligence (and other mental abilities) are affected by their form, but it remains the same spirit.

[ftafp]

On a funny/existential horror note, that means you, a chain pact warlock can summon a celestial spirit and force it into the form of an imp or quasit.

fallen cherub or risen imp?

[Dork_Forge]

Blindsight works in darkness, magical darkness, any source of heavy obscurement like fog cloud, and depending on the DM it can penetrate walls or see through illusions.

Tressyms have darkvision out to the same distance as their see invisibility trait and there's no real reason why what is essentially echolocation would penetrate a wall.



cool beans. it still dies in one hit

From what? The minimum damage on a Goblin is 3, it's not a lot of hp it just gives some chance of survival and a higher starting point if there's temp hp going around.


the fly speed's the only that matters, but it's a paltry abilitt

Consider that the bat has no real way to hang upside down from a ceiling, like... bats do.

Climbing is useful for times when flying isn't suitable or you want to just hand on a wall. More than once as a player the party I've been in has faced winds strong enough to shut down flight.


Detect poison and disease is a ritual spell and it's still not worth taking. If someone's going to attack you with poison it's either going to be an attack rider or a cloud of noxious green gas. Either way you'll already be taking steps to avoid it without being told it's poison

Sometimes people play games that have intrigue, and that's okay.

There's also a world of difference between a ritual spell and an always on passive.


if your familiar is in the line of fire of a poison attack or aoe you're already doing something wrong

Because you can always control where you are when a dragon breaths on you or the room/dungeon your in gets pumped with gas? Despite the trope you went with, there's zero reason for poison to be a noxious green gas.


not really useful

You value hands, but not human level intelligence? A higher intelligence raises the ceiling in terms of what a familiar can independently achieve and accurately report.


I will concede that this is a bit more useful when the familiar's primary function minus any gimmicks is scouting. Not all scouting takes place within 100 feet, so this is useful, if you need it to spy on a conversation. Still, I don't find the tressym better than a bat.

And that's your perogative, I like to choose the bat when I have access to vanilla FF too, but if Tressym was on the table it'd be hard to turn down. Literally the only thing the bat has in comparison is the Blindsense, once of the major uses of which is available to the Tressym. Whilst you may not rate the other benefits of the Tressym, the fact is that it's a lot of things against just Blindsense.


If you want to talk about broken familiar options, talk about the Flying Monkeys from Tomb of Annihilation. Familiar hands are the devil's playthings, and flying monkeys are the only ones that don't require pact of the chain and can still fly while using a magic item

Eh? Both as a player and a DM I wouldn't expect much from a creature with an Int of 5, Part of what makes hands on an Imp so interesting is that you can give them gear that they're competent enough to use.

Could you just say "Well caltrops just say they take an action to spread" "Any creature can just use a magic item" etc.? Sure, but it wouldn't fly at my tables, and I wouldn't expect it to fly in a longer campaign at other tables either. You want that monkey to do useful things with its hands? Train it and see if it works.

Here's an example: Int that low can be the difference between your hand enabled familiar understanding that you're dying and should feed you a potion, or scratching themselves.

[Foxydono]

I'd allow it. Why? Rule of cool and it isn't OP.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Always because I love cats. Tressym was designed to be a reward. They are not OP but they are very valuable, adding two spell-likes as at will (see invisible and detect poison). Value of either in combat is low, though a DM did have an invisible stalker kill one of mine bc it kept telling us where to shoot.

[P. G. Macer]

I’d allow it, and I’ve actually played a wizard with a Tressym familiar in the past. It was just like most familiars most of the time, though one time it allowed us to catch an invisible artifact thief, which really threw a wrench in the DM’s plans :smallbiggrin: but not enough to ban it.

[ftafp]

Tressyms have darkvision out to the same distance as their see invisibility trait and there's no real reason why what is essentially echolocation would penetrate a wall.

darkvision cant see through magical darkness, or fog clouds, smoke clouds, dust storms, swarms of insects... blindsight isnt just better, its significant enough that bat familiars are recommended over spite and imp for fathomless and marid chainlocks


From what? The minimum damage on a Goblin is 3, it's not a lot of hp it just gives some chance of survival and a higher starting point if there's temp hp going around.

beyond level 1 you aren't going to be fighting many base goblins, and their average damage is still enough to kill it


Consider that the bat has no real way to hang upside down from a ceiling, like... bats do.

Climbing is useful for times when flying isn't suitable or you want to just hand on a wall. More than once as a player the party I've been in has faced winds strong enough to shut down flight.

tressyms dont have spider climb either for that matter, but any creature can climb. climb speeds just make you faster than half your walking speed. RAW a climb speed doesn't even help you hold on


You value hands, but not human level intelligence? A higher intelligence raises the ceiling in terms of what a familiar can independently achieve and accurately report.

Eh? Both as a player and a DM I wouldn't expect much from a creature with an Int of 5, Part of what makes hands on an Imp so interesting is that you can give them gear that they're competent enough to use.

Could you just say "Well caltrops just say they take an action to spread" "Any creature can just use a magic item" etc.? Sure, but it wouldn't fly at my tables, and I wouldn't expect it to fly in a longer campaign at other tables either. You want that monkey to do useful things with its hands? Train it and see if it works.

Here's an example: Int that low can be the difference between your hand enabled familiar understanding that you're dying and should feed you a potion, or scratching themselves.

a monkey is more than capable of doing any of those things. 5 int is the intelligence of an ogre or a preschooler, not a cockroach. tressyms meanwhile have that intelligence but without hands to manipulate objects they can hardly put it to use. you're asking if a monkey would know to feed you a healing potion, but the tressym couldnt even hold the bottle

[Segev]

darkvision cant see through magical darkness, or fog clouds, smoke clouds, dust storms, swarms of insects... blindsight isnt just better, its significant enough that bat familiars are recommended over spite and imp for fathomless and marid chainlocks

Why specifically the aquatic Patrons, when bats can't go underwater?

[P. G. Macer]

Why specifically the aquatic Patrons, when bats can't go underwater?

I’m guessing it has to do with Investment of the Chain Master, an Invocation from Tasha’s that removes the familiar’s need to breathe and grants it either a flying or swimming speed of 40 feet, and since the bat can already fly…

[ftafp]

Why specifically the aquatic Patrons, when bats can't go underwater?

It's not about the patrons, it's about their spell lists. Sleet Storm, present on both those subclasses spell lists is one of the best control spells in the game. Enemies trapped in its massive area of effect can't see, can't concentrate, can't aim spells, move at half speed and need to save every turn to not fall prone. When other casters use this, they can force a swarm of enemies to come at them one at a time like chumps, giving the players a massive advantage. Warlocks with repelling blast remove even more enemy agency, as any creature that escapes can be blasted back in.

That said, a major limitation of this spell is that just as your enemies can't see out of it, you can't see into it, meaning you have to wait for enemies to emerge to attack them. A bat familiar on the other hand CAN see into a sleet storm with its blindsight, and to an enormous distance to boot. If you take Voice of the Chain Master you gain the passive ability to see and hear through your familiar's senses, including its blindsight. Because you can use its senses, there's nothing stopping you from blasting enemies already trapped in the sleet storm, pushing them in deeper and preventing them from emerging at all.

In most cases, a sprite familiar is still better than a bat (and gazer leaves both of them in the dust if your DM lets you use those variant rules), but both of them are miles above the tressym in terms of functionality

[Dork_Forge]

darkvision cant see through magical darkness, or fog clouds, smoke clouds, dust storms, swarms of insects... blindsight isnt just better, its significant enough that bat familiars are recommended over spite and imp for fathomless and marid chainlocks

I was confused why you were so hung up on this, but I think I now understand why.


beyond level 1 you aren't going to be fighting many base goblins, and their average damage is still enough to kill it

So you've never fought a Goblin at level 2 or 3 etc? I'm guessing you've never played LMoP?

I'm playing in a level 8 PbP homebrew game now, the last combat we had was a big ol' bunch of goblins.


tressyms dont have spider climb either for that matter, but any creature can climb. climb speeds just make you faster than half your walking speed. RAW a climb speed doesn't even help you hold on

I'd handle things a little differently, but that's fair.


a monkey is more than capable of doing any of those things. 5 int is the intelligence of an ogre or a preschooler, not a cockroach. tressyms meanwhile have that intelligence but without hands to manipulate objects they can hardly put it to use. you're asking if a monkey would know to feed you a healing potion, but the tressym couldnt even hold the bottle


I'm not sure what case you're trying to make here, working with a preschooler or a giant tantrum prone toddler does not seem conducive to complex tasks. But my point was that the Monkey is limited by intelligence an Imp is not, I wasn't comparing the Tressym there.


It's not about the patrons, it's about their spell lists. Sleet Storm, present on both those subclasses spell lists is one of the best control spells in the game. Enemies trapped in its massive area of effect can't see, can't concentrate, can't aim spells, move at half speed and need to save every turn to not fall prone. When other casters use this, they can force a swarm of enemies to come at them one at a time like chumps, giving the players a massive advantage. Warlocks with repelling blast remove even more enemy agency, as any creature that escapes can be blasted back in.

That said, a major limitation of this spell is that just as your enemies can't see out of it, you can't see into it, meaning you have to wait for enemies to emerge to attack them. A bat familiar on the other hand CAN see into a sleet storm with its blindsight, and to an enormous distance to boot. If you take Voice of the Chain Master you gain the passive ability to see and hear through your familiar's senses, including its blindsight. Because you can use its senses, there's nothing stopping you from blasting enemies already trapped in the sleet storm, pushing them in deeper and preventing them from emerging at all.

In most cases, a sprite familiar is still better than a bat (and gazer leaves both of them in the dust if your DM lets you use those variant rules), but both of them are miles above the tressym in terms of functionality

This makes a lot more sense why you're advocating so heavily for the bat.

Voice of the Chain Master just enhances the distance, it doesn't remove the action requirement from the Find Familiar spell. I can see how it could be read that way, but some googling shows a general consensus about that not removing the action requirement, including threads on here too.

How heavily would the action requirement not being removed affect your judgement towards the bat?

[ftafp]

This makes a lot more sense why you're advocating so heavily for the bat.

Voice of the Chain Master just enhances the distance, it doesn't remove the action requirement from the Find Familiar spell. I can see how it could be read that way, but some googling shows a general consensus about that not removing the action requirement, including threads on here too.

How heavily would the action requirement not being removed affect your judgement towards the bat?

Assuming you rule that an action is still required, bat familiars would fall behind tressyms. That said, tressyms are still far from overpowered. Flying monkeys have far more advantages for non-chainlocks by simply by virtue of having hands to manipulate objects with.

[sandmote]

I'd probably require some sort of explanation for how the PC got a Tressym if they start with it, more so at lower levels. I'm a also a bit strict about needing an action to see through the familiar, so it probably wouldn't break anything.

Honestly, neither poison nor invisibly come up much for me, mainly because there's limited ways to communicate them to PCs. A Tressym might make them more interesting to use rather than less.

For the flying monkey, I think most familiars are going to be treated as more intelligent than mundane animals, and monkeys will be treated as more intelligent than most other animals. As a Result I don't think many tables will be able to take it seriously if the slying monkey sees a party member drop and proceeds to scratch its butt. Maybe it won't recall how to use a potion at that moment, but it'll probably try to be useful.


fallen cherub or risen imp?
You likely mean a fallen putto; a cherub is something more horrifying. And yes, I maintain this as one of my hills.

[Chronos]

Back in the day, I came to the conclusion that cherubim and beholders were somehow two sides of the same coin, possibly with beholders originating as corrupted cherubim.

[ftafp]

Back in the day, I came to the conclusion that cherubim and beholders were somehow two sides of the same coin, possibly with beholders originating as corrupted cherubim.

i can sort of see the idea. both are giant floating heads with eyes upon eyes upon eyes. then again, cherubs are 4 heads not one and have wings. also they can somehow wield a flaming sword despite not having hands. maybe it's like the mouthpick weapon from lords of madness? i always pictured it as an ophanim whos ring had flaming saw teeth on them

[Segev]

i can sort of see the idea. both are giant floating heads with eyes upon eyes upon eyes. then again, cherubs are 4 heads not one and have wings. also they can somehow wield a flaming sword despite not having hands. maybe it's like the mouthpick weapon from lords of madness? i always pictured it as an ophanim whos ring had flaming saw teeth on them
An angel wielding a fiery sword that points every direction without hands?
https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/033/746/594/4k/paul-jouard-ramiel.jpg?1610467512

[Clistenes]

Also of note, is that the spirit's sapience, sentience, and intelligence (and other mental abilities) are affected by their form, but it remains the same spirit.

That has always bothered me a bit... Do these Spirits actually have personalities of their own? A moral code? likes and dislikes? desires and hates of their own...?

I mean, let say I summon a Celestial Spirit or a Fey as a Familiar and have it spend years as a Raven, eating carrion, bugs and mice... then one day I true polymorph it into a CR 0 NPC Commoner to use as part of a ploy... would the spirit, now granted human-like intelligence, be pissed when they remember all that ****...?

[Keravath]

I wouldn't in general have a problem allowing a Treesym familiar as long as there was a good story reason that justified it. It is better than most and on a par with the best ones. Immunity to poison isn't a big deal, 5 hit points isn't an issue, 40' fly speed isn't as quick as an owl, the climb speed is generally not relevant if they can fly, and see invisible is a nice but very niche ability. However, a winged cat sitting on your shoulder is a fashion statement that would appeal to many wizards I have met :)

However, for me, the main distinguishing feature is the intelligence. The Treesym can do things other familiars can't because it can understand and communicate in common and deal with complex instructions. An owl might be able to fly up and give you some basic information from scouting on its own while the Treesym could give detailed information on inhabitants, weapons, locations, traps, and many other items that require a certain level of cognitive ability to properly relate. If the Treesym gets killed you can resummon it and get an update on what it saw up until the point it was killed (assuming the DM has some continuity in familiars). Basically, an intelligent familiar, like the warlock ones, is generally far more useful due to the ability to come up with actions on their own and their ability to communicate than the standard familiars.

[jaappleton]

I wouldn't in general have a problem allowing a Treesym familiar as long as there was a good story reason that justified it. It is better than most and on a par with the best ones. Immunity to poison isn't a big deal, 5 hit points isn't an issue, 40' fly speed isn't as quick as an owl, the climb speed is generally not relevant if they can fly, and see invisible is a nice but very niche ability. However, a winged cat sitting on your shoulder is a fashion statement that would appeal to many wizards I have met :)

However, for me, the main distinguishing feature is the intelligence. The Treesym can do things other familiars can't because it can understand and communicate in common and deal with complex instructions. An owl might be able to fly up and give you some basic information from scouting on its own while the Treesym could give detailed information on inhabitants, weapons, locations, traps, and many other items that require a certain level of cognitive ability to properly relate. If the Treesym gets killed you can resummon it and get an update on what it saw up until the point it was killed (assuming the DM has some continuity in familiars). Basically, an intelligent familiar, like the warlock ones, is generally far more useful due to the ability to come up with actions on their own and their ability to communicate than the standard familiars.

All of this is true. Especially the point about the Tressym speaking Common.

What's weird to me, though... An Owl or a Bat looks natural in many environments.

A winged cat looks out of place everywhere but Mordenkainen's house.

[ChaosStar]

To be honest I wouldn't expect anyone but Chainlocks to have Tressym for familiars, unless they had an equivalent of 3.5's Improved Familiar feat.