New Showrunner for Doctor Who

[comicshorse]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58682472

So this is..........good. Right ?

Speaking personally anythings better than the current guy

[Cygnia]

I don't want WANGST~! or RTD obsessing about Rose All. The. Time. AGAIN.:smallfurious:

But I gotta digest this for a bit first. Chibnall is eh, but Moffatt's tenure had me swearing up a storm.

[Precure]

13 is leaving already? :smallconfused:

[Fyraltari]

13 is leaving already? :smallconfused:

3 seasons is about the standard duration of a given Doctor.

Edit: As for RTD coming back, this feels like a move to regain some lost good-will. Given that last season (especially in regards to Gallifrey and the Master) was basically "RTD but just the bad aspects" that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I'm not familiar with his other work, with luck he might have improved even.

[Androgeus]

13 is leaving already? :smallconfused:

Yep in 2022. Series 13 will air some time this year (likely starting next month, but who knows) and then there’ll be 3 specials in 2022, New Years, a second one, and one for the BBC’s centenary which will be her last.


As for RTD returning, wouldn’t be surprised if it’s because the BBC couldn’t find anyone else to take the role.

[Eldan]

Wait, she had three seasons? I remember a little talk about some episodes I had, wasn't really interested anymore during the Moffat Era, so I just assumed she had like one season and then they stopped making the show. No one was talking about it anymore?

Edit: any of it any good? I'm gathering fans didn't like it much, but perhaps any good episodes to pick out?

[Fyraltari]

Wait, she had three seasons? I remember a little talk about some episodes I had, wasn't really interested anymore during the Moffat Era, so I just assumed she had like one season and then they stopped making the show. No one was talking about it anymore?

Edit: any of it any good? I'm gathering fans didn't like it much, but perhaps any good episodes to pick out?
She's had two seasons, with the one planned for 2022 that'd make three.
Her first season was overall mediocre. Her second season was mostly an improvement but the finale severely undermined it for me.

From series 11, I'd say "Kerblam!" is the best episode, although it fails to deliver the message it wants to.

The 2020 special episode "Resolution" is probably the best of her run so far.

From series 12, the first episode, "Spyfall (Part 1)" was excellent but Part 2 was a severe letdown (I am talking Monk trilogy level of letdown), "Praxeus" was a solid episode, "Fugitive of the Judoon" was great but it serves as build up to the finale of the season which I consider to be the worst of the series, so...

"The haunting of Villa Diodati" was pretty good and introduced an interesting spin on my favourite DW monsters, but it is also the first aprt of the finale who promptly shoves that aside.

[halfeye]

3 seasons is about the standard duration of a given Doctor.

Troughton started that, and he was wrong, he was already typecast and he rarely worked as a main character afterwards. As the character I preferred two to four, but four made seven seasons work for himself.

[Fyraltari]

Troughton started that, and he was wrong, he was already typecast and he rarely worked as a main character afterwards. As the character I preferred two to four, but four made seven seasons work for himself.
But not for Tom Baker, the role fed his mental issues (he's doing much better these days).

There's no actual "3 seasons" rule, but it's about the average :
One lasted slightly over three seasons.
Two lasted slightly under three seasons.
Three lasted five seasons.
Four lasted seven seasons.
Five lasted slightly under three seasons.
Six lasted slightly over two seasons.
Seven lasted three seasons.
Eight lasted a movie.
Nine lasted one season.
Ten lasted three seasons plus four specials.
Eleven lasted three seasons plus two specials.
Twelve lasted three seasons.

[halfeye]

But not for Tom Baker, the role fed his mental issues (he's doing much better these days).

I'm sorry to hear Tom Baker had issues.


There's no actual "3 seasons" rule, but it's about the average :
One lasted slightly over three seasons.

Left due to heath issues.


Two lasted slightly under three seasons.

Quit while at his peak.


Three lasted five seasons.

Turned out tolerable in the end, but never as good as two. Did other considerable work after Who.


Four lasted seven seasons.

Better than three.


Five lasted slightly under three seasons.

Quit while ahead due to the influence of Troughton, about even with three.


Six lasted slightly over two seasons.

Better than five. Fired for dodgy reasons.


Seven lasted three seasons.
Eight lasted a movie.

I never saw these.


Nine lasted one season.

May have actually evaded typecasting.


Ten lasted three seasons plus four specials.
Eleven lasted three seasons plus two specials.
Twelve lasted three seasons.

The Troughton myth strikes, or were they pushed?

I do not believe that the doctor regularly regenerating is or ever was good for the series.

[Androgeus]

May have actually evaded typecasting.

Probably worth noting that he left due to behind the scenes politics, not the to avoid type casting quote the BBC falsely attributed to him.

Also surely Capaldi is three series and a special.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by comicshorse
Speaking personally anythings better than the current guy….

I’ve never really watched this show, but I’m curious—what's wrong with the current guy?

[Cygnia]

Eccleston's now doing stuff for Big Finish, which is good -- but I want RTD to give him an apology too, given what CE went through.

[comicshorse]

I’ve never really watched this show, but I’m curious—what's wrong with the current guy?

Personally speaking he has done a lot I hate. All of this is IMHO, of course

The new Master is a giggling idiot who I couldn't see robbing a shop successfully let alone being a threat on a cosmic scale and I love the Master

The stories have been in general lack luster

The companions were OK I suppose but again lazy choices as there is nobody from another era or another planet but all 21th Century humans when he's got literally all of Space and Time to pick from

And the 'revelation' of the last season pretty much junked every bit of Who lore ever ( as changeable as that admittedly is ) and what is worse did it for, as far as I could tell, NO GOOD REASON BUT TO DO IT

[Cikomyr2]

Eccleston's now doing stuff for Big Finish, which is good -- but I want RTD to give him an apology too, given what CE went through.

Was it ever revealed what he went through, or he was just tired of the character in stories keep bringing up his accent "from the North"?

Ecclestone was my favorite Doctor. He had a manic energy to him

[Cygnia]

Severe depression and body image issues (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/feb/10/christopher-eccleston-felt-was-going-to-die-depression-anorexia-books)

[Anonymouswizard]

Eccleston was my favorite Doctor. He had a manic energy to him

While not my favourite Doctor (that's a competition between Two, audio Six, and Eight), he's probably my favourite revival series Doctor whites series avoided most of the issues with the Tennant era. Plus he probably has my favourite regeneration scene, he's not thrilled but he's made his decision and he's fine with that.

So yeah, if we get some more stories like the Ecclescake era I'm fine with this.

I will note that our of all Chibnall's characters, Ryan annoys me. I have issues with how Jodie's Doctor is written but that just means I want her to get more to work with*, Ryan annoys me because it feels like the writers forget he's ND when it benefits them.

* She's pretty much the revival's Six.

[Psyren]

I loved Eccleston's doctor and very happy he is doing the fandom circuit again. He was at DragonCon this year and he looked very healthy and happy! The line to get in looked like it went around three blocks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbFq37yhKl8

(@Cikomyr2: He does talk about RTD and why he left the show in that panel as well for the curious, @ 12:30, plus some Big Finish stuff and even a tidbit on Thor 2.)



*snip*

I mean, you can quote-stream them all with a set of justifications if you really want to, but the bottom line is that Fryaltari is right, three seasons isn't out of the ordinary. In her case it feels thin because it looks like we're going to get just one major plot in all three of those seasons with her, but I squarely blame Chibnall for that (see below).


I’ve never really watched this show, but I’m curious—what's wrong with the current guy?

It's hard to put my finger on it. The main criticism I have for Chibnall is that he appears to have taken the primary criticism of Moffat - overly-convoluted and multi-season plotlines - and vastly overcorrected in the other direction, reducing Jodie's entire first season and much of her second to a scattered monster-of-the-week format that hasn't been building to much of anything. Now that they finally have a big plot going with the Timeless Child stuff, it hasn't had any room to breathe and barely any setup, and it's left the fans more confused than intrigued.

The other big issue I have with him relates to the companions. Graham is fine because let's face it, a cis white male is handy to have around for a lot of the past jumping stuff (see the Rosa Parks, Witchfinder, and Frankenstein episodes), plus he brings the truest emotional core to the "fam." But Ryan and Yaz, while individually fine, ended up spread much too thin having to split the remainder of companionly duties and screentime between them. Graham + one of the others would have been ideal, maybe adding the third one in S2, but starting things off with an ensemble cast felt like more than Chibnall could handle, particularly when you start also adding in the secondary characters who also need screentime like King James, Ruth Clayton, and whoever the villain(s) ended up being.

[Cygnia]

I liked Graham because it's rare we get old folks as Companions. (Jack doesn't count -- he's still young-looking and immortal)

[Cikomyr2]

Severe depression and body image issues (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/feb/10/christopher-eccleston-felt-was-going-to-die-depression-anorexia-books)

All of these are important issue and I am happy he managed to start addressing them.

But... is this RTD's or BBC's fault? Was he mistreated by the production?

[Psyren]

All of these are important issue and I am happy he managed to start addressing them.

But... is this RTD's or BBC's fault? Was he mistreated by the production?

I gave you a timestamp that speaks to this, I don't think it's likely he'll get any more specific than that in a public forum. He even talks about the quote the BBC higher-ups misattributed to him and subsequently sort-of-apologized for.

[Cikomyr2]

I gave you a timestamp that speaks to this, I don't think it's likely he'll get any more specific than that in a public forum. He even talks about the quote the BBC higher-ups misattributed to him and subsequently sort-of-apologized for.

I had completely missed you giving me that! So sorry! thanks!

[Traab]

I honestly enjoyed 9-12. They all brought something different to the series for me. 9 to me showed he could be goofy, and enraged and everything in between. I thought he was.... wait for it.... fantastic. Each of the doctors had their good and bad parts, their good and bad storylines, so on and so forth. The speech matt smith delivered in the rings of akhaten was mesmerizing. When he starts going you can almost see the humanity melting away from his face as he talks about how he has seen things that can never be unseen and all that and its brilliant. But all of them are great fun. Some seemed to focus primarily with one type of personality over the others, but they could all display whimsy, rage, the pain of being the doctor, their age, their confidence, their ability to bluff entire armadas with no plan because they are the doctor and you step lightly when "I AM TALKING!!!!!" Sorry, just watched the pandorica. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

I enjoy them all, and 13 too. She is being hamstrung by the showrunner but when she has good material she's stone-cold brilliant. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptcwmM_ZsRg)

[Cikomyr2]

I enjoy them all, and 13 too. She is being hamstrung by the showrunner but when she has good material she's stone-cold brilliant. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptcwmM_ZsRg)

See, whatever the problems exists during 13's run... it wasn't Jodie Whittaker's fault. She delivered what she was given, and gave it her best.

Only the classic misogynists would correlate the show's having production issue with the fact that the doctor was a FEEE-MALE

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/startrek/images/0/05/Zek.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200302012035

[Arutema]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58682472

So this is..........good. Right ?

Speaking personally anythings better than the current guy

My main concern is that bringing RTD back feels like a nice safe move from the BBC. Will that mean playing it safe with casting another white bloke as the 14th?

[Cen]

See, whatever the problems exists during 13's run... it wasn't Jodie Whittaker's fault. She delivered what she was given, and gave it her best.

Only the classic misogynists would correlate the show's having production issue with the fact that the doctor was a FEEE-MALE


I don't think anyone had a problem with Doctor being female but with Doctor being Jodie. And honestly her performance in her first season was weird.. like she was trying to be amalgamation of 10/11/12 all at once and not making something of her own. I guess she was directed this way, but when she finaly got some proper acting and characterisation in her second season Timeless children happened and.. well i'm not interested in the show anymore.


And about RTD returning:
I was there watching first airings of eccleston and tennants episodes. I remember all the hate RTD got when he was finishing his run. Don't you remember Fairy Jesus Gollum Doctor? Absorbalof? Fart Aliens invading London?
Granted, RTD might be better than Chinball in sense that he won't be making obvious morals in every story (corporated business is bad, being racist is baad, being sexist is baaad) like Chibnal makes, but he's on another level of garbage with his stories.

Also also:
I remember hearing a story about Moffat repeatedly asking RTD to come back for 50th anni, but he didn't want to? and now he's back? I wonder what happened.

[Dienekes]

I don't think anyone had a problem with Doctor being female but with Doctor being Jodie. And honestly her performance in her first season was weird.. like she was trying to be amalgamation of 10/11/12 all at once and not making something of her own. I guess she was directed this way, but when she finaly got some proper acting and characterisation in her second season Timeless children happened and.. well i'm not interested in the show anymore.


And about RTD returning:
I was there watching first airings of eccleston and tennants episodes. I remember all the hate RTD got when he was finishing his run. Don't you remember Fairy Jesus Gollum Doctor? Absorbalof? Fart Aliens invading London?
Granted, RTD might be better than Chinball in sense that he won't be making obvious morals in every story (corporated business is bad, being racist is baad, being sexist is baaad) like Chibnal makes, but he's on another level of garbage with his stories.

Also also:
I remember hearing a story about Moffat repeatedly asking RTD to come back for 50th anni, but he didn't want to? and now he's back? I wonder what happened.

RTD from my memory did terribly with creating satisfying conclusions, got weirdly obsessive with his characters, wrote awkward monologues way too much, and almost always went for cheap drama whenever he could, and his seasonal plotlines were often at the same time barely alluded to during the season and often resulted in nonsense.

But, he was able to get great performances from his main actors, and make the Doctor -mostly- likeable. Which I think when people think back on his tenure is what they remember. Tennant and Eccleston repeatedly get held up as great Doctors, despite Eccleston only having maybe 3 legitimately good episodes in his run. And Tennant being saddled with one of the most annoying character arcs with his obsession with Rose and his eyeroll worthy overlong goodbye. But their performances were great, and I think RTD rightfully gets some props for that.

[Rynjin]

So my 2 cents on Davies: at least his stint as showrunner had the series be consistently entertaining.

Was every episode good? Hell no. Was the tone overall a bit campy? Hell yes.

But the show was fun goddammit. That's something Moffat started to lose sight of pretty quick and Chibnall never had a grasp on.

I'm sure both are fine writers in a vacuum. Every standalone episode of Who that Moffat did was good, and I hear Broadchurch is pretty solid on Chibnall's end.

But being a good episode writer and being a good showrunner are two entirely different skillsets. I think Moffat and Chibnall are good at the former but suck as the latter.

Davies is kinda the opposite.

[comicshorse]

My main concern is that bringing RTD back feels like a nice safe move from the BBC. Will that mean playing it safe with casting another white bloke as the 14th?

I'd put money on it

[Cen]

My main concern is that bringing RTD back feels like a nice safe move from the BBC. Will that mean playing it safe with casting another white bloke as the 14th?

Wasn't Jo Martin supposed to be next one?

[Fyraltari]

I’ve never really watched this show, but I’m curious—what's wrong with the current guy?
To add to what's already been said, I feel like bringing The Master back so soon* after Moffat gave them what may be the most fitting end for their character ever (literally stopped by her own past from becoming a better person, ending in them backstabbing themself twice), especially since the new Master just brushes away all the character development that happened.
Also, the whole thing of having Gallifrey be destroyed, off-screen and casually by the Master. At least when RTD took the toybox away he justified it with an epic war and made the consequences of that be integral to the Doctor's character. This just feels mean. Especially since the relevant episode keep referencing older, Gallifrey-centric episodes.
And the whole Timeless Child thing. IT adds nothing to the Doctor's character except making her that god-like figure that's the basis for Time Lord society. She's no longer a run-of-the mill Time Lord that rebelled against the corruption they saw in their own people and does good for the sake of it, passing through. She's now someone who fled the people who exploited her and saves-the-universe because she's super-duper special. Chibnall is hardly the first show-runner to give the Doctor this kind of dimension to their character, but it's especially grating this time. In particular because I feel this was done to definitely remove the 12 regeneration limit (even though both the Doctor and Rassilon stated that the Doctor had received an unknown number of new regenerations, possibly infinite like Rassilon, so there was no need) and to validate the Morbius Doctor theory which I never liked**.


And to beat a dead horse, Thirteen ended up feeling very bland, like Five or movie-Eight (I am told he gets much better in Big Finish and assorted expanded universe stuff) did.
And the companions were handled very weirdly despite all of them being good on paper. Except Graham. Graham's great.


I mean, you can quote-stream them all with a set of justifications if you really want to, but the bottom line is that Fryaltari is right, three seasons isn't out of the ordinary. In her case it feels thin because it looks like we're going to get just one major plot in all three of those seasons with her, but I squarely blame Chibnall for that (see below).

Agreed. Also, Fyraltari.


*We all knew The Master would come back but I think a longer wait was necessary to lait the character "rest" so to speak.
**Yes, I know that one is highly subjective, and hypocritical of me since I thought they were going to validate the "Season 6B" theory, which I like. Sue me.

Edit:

I never saw these.
they're underrated.

My main concern is that bringing RTD back feels like a nice safe move from the BBC. Will that mean playing it safe with casting another white bloke as the 14th?
I fear you are correct. I ahd hoped we'd get like two-three female Doctors to establish firmly this was not a one off before some sort of (ir)regular flip-flopping.

Jodie

Not directed at you in particular, but why is Whittaker the only actor to play the Doctor people refer to with her first name rather than last? Like, people go "Eccleston, Tennant, Smith and Capaldi" not "Christopher, David, Matt and Peter".

Okay, I tell a lie, people tend to give Matt Smith his full name. Why is that?

EDIT2:


Wasn't Jo Martin supposed to be next one?
No, she was confirmed to be playing a previously-unknown past incarnation of the Doctor, not a future one.

[Precure]

About the next doctor:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/jun/27/olly-alexander-tipped-to-be-the-next-doctor-who

What makes it more credible is RTD's return.

[Cikomyr2]

Not directed at you in particular, but why is Whittaker the only actor to play the Doctor people refer to with her first name rather than last? Like, people go "Eccleston, Tennant, Smith and Capaldi" not "Christopher, David, Matt and Peter".

Okay, I tell a lie, people tend to give Matt Smith his full name. Why is that?


Explanation 1: Outside of standard mild misogynist standard where many people (including the media) treat women with less respect than men and therefore will default to more casual way to approach, I'd argue Whittaker is hard to spell?

Explanation 2: Matt Smith is literally 2 syllables. Eccleston's surname is literally longer to say than Matt Smith's entire name.

[Psyren]

And about RTD returning:
I was there watching first airings of eccleston and tennants episodes. I remember all the hate RTD got when he was finishing his run. Don't you remember Fairy Jesus Gollum Doctor? Absorbalof? Fart Aliens invading London?
Granted, RTD might be better than Chinball in sense that he won't be making obvious morals in every story (corporated business is bad, being racist is baad, being sexist is baaad) like Chibnal makes, but he's on another level of garbage with his stories.


Bad RTD can be really bad (Love & Monsters, Fear Her, Aliens in London) but good RTD is near the pinnacle of NuWho - Midnight, Turn Left, Partners in Crime, Gridlock etc. More importantly however and very unlike Chibnall, RTD has proven he can do overarching plots very well - Bad Wolf, Utopia, and Doomsday all proved that. Three major plots to Chibnall's one, that have remained beloved staples of the modern era to this day, meanwhile the one Chibnall is working on we don't even know will be any good yet.



Agreed. Also, Fyraltari.

Whoops, sorry



Not directed at you in particular, but why is Whittaker the only actor to play the Doctor people refer to with her first name rather than last? Like, people go "Eccleston, Tennant, Smith and Capaldi" not "Christopher, David, Matt and Peter".

Okay, I tell a lie, people tend to give Matt Smith his full name. Why is that?

For starters, because there are multiple who-adjacent folks with most of those names. "Chris" could be Eccleston or Chibnall, "Peter" could be Capaldi or Davison, "Matt" usually gets his full name anyway and Tennant is how he's referred to everywhere. Second, most of the famous "Whittakers" up till now like Forest and Robert have been male, so using her first name makes it clearer who we're talking about. Jodie is also shorter to type and she's the only one.

I also think people use solo family names for actresses less often in general. A lot of family names also just end up sounding more masculine, probably because wives and children have been taking their husbands' for centuries. You'll come across a ton more last names in English that end with "-son" than "-datter" etc as a result. Consider ScarJo - "Johannson" is a pretty masculine name, so calling her just that would be weird.

[Calemyr]

First, I have to say I am very much not a fan of Whittaker's run. I realize this might not be a popular take.

There's really nothing I've found that worked right, and the entire two seasons/series have been a gigantic middle finger to the franchise, either by virtue of the sheer lack of effort or the flagrant dismissal or mockery of what came before.

Whittaker herself is probably the least of the problems. She could almost work in a well-written show, if it weren't for the fact that she has no personal investment in it. She refused to watch the seasons that came before her, and, to my knowledge, never settled on a personality of her own besides "quirky Ten/Eleven mishmash". Some traits carry on between Doctors, yes, but they are always distinct - Ten is war-weary socialite who wants to be part of the universe he's saved so often, while Eleven is rebellious man-child who realizes he's on his last regeneration and clings to his youthful energy to resist the anger and frustration that's been building up in him for so long.

The writing is the main problem. They brought in people with no sci-fi (much less Who-adjacent) writing experience who were far more interested in making statements than constructing a cohesive and entertaining plot. You make statements FAR more effectively when these statements are couched in an engaging presentation. The volume on the subtext cannot be louder than the text itself, if you will. Beyond this, they were inconsistent with Thirteen to an almost comical degree, one episode claiming in disgust that she hates conspiracies, only to (not long after) declare she loves conspiracies. I mean, I wouldn't have had a problem if she'd connected the two opinions (i.e. "You know, I hate conspiracies. But I do love cracking them open. So satisfying!"), but they just didn't care enough to maintain consistency.

I'm very against the Timeless Child twist. It ruins the very core of the Doctor. Not that they've always been male, but rather that they've never been "Special". What made the Doctor compelling, in my opinion, was that they were extremely intelligent, brave, compassionate, and relentless, but never special. They were just someone who looked at the world around them and said "This isn't who I want to be", and then (and this is the what makes them unique) did something about it. Ten wasn't the "Lonely God" because forty sages foretold his birth or because two divine entities got affectionate one day, he was just the one that survived - if you could even call it that.


I'm very conflicted about Davies coming back, mainly because I don't know if this is a PR move or an attempt to genuinely get the show back on the right track. If it's a PR stunt, Davies will be nothing more than a face to flash at critics and he'll be forced to follow the same path that has led here. If he's shackled by network notes and directives, this will do nothing but cast an unfortunate light on the Nine and Ten's runs, making a genuinely impressive achievement of resurrecting a deprecated franchise look trite by demonstrating how limited the show-runner's input actually might be.

If it's a genuine effort, well, then I have some hope. If I had my druthers, we'd pretend 13 never happened just to do the one thing I desperately wished they had done: Give 12 (Peter Capaldi) the quality of writing to match the quality of his acting. The man gave 120% in his entire run, but the writing was generally so lackluster he tended do drown in the mediocrity around him. Look at Heaven Sent to see what Capaldi was capable of with a good script. Even with bad scripts he tended to be the saving grace of otherwise weak episodes. I would be overjoyed if he had a chance to really show what he could do. I mean, I doubt they'll just retcon three seasons, but I'd be happy if they even brought him back as an arc character. Capaldi nailed the chemistry when working with Tennant and Smith, as well as David Bradley.

Honestly, though, I'd just be happy if they started telling compelling stories again, maybe recast some previous events in a more coherent light. The Timeless Child story, for example, would be far better with one alteration. The child in question was Susan, not the Doctor. Maybe the Doctor was Tecteun, and regret for her cruelty is why the Doctor became what they did. Maybe Hartnell really was the first, and saw what was being done to Susan and simply said "No More." Either would be extremely compelling, I believe, and would do wonders for salvaging the Doctor from the wreck that story turned them into. Hell, if Tecteun was the Doctor's original incarnation, maybe that could explain why Thirteen is so... inconsistent, an incarnation pulling from non-Doctor aspects of their history, and the internal conflict making it hard to find her center. Or they could say she's just been out of practice being female - it has been over two thousand years, after all.

As for the next Doctor, I think it'll probably be a white male, yes. Not because that's the only thing that people will accept, but because they need to tag back to past stability and familiarity before stepping back out into new territory. Kind of like how people suspect that the Force Awakens was a retread of the original trilogy as an effort to rebuild the faith of the fanbase that they understood the legacy. Gender and skin color should not matter for the Doctor, they are supposed to be alien - wrapped in a familiar skin, yes, but absolutely alien. If a good actor/actress is supported by good writing, they could excel at it. Jo Grant, for example, would make a fine Doctor if given clean starting point. This era, however, had a weak actress and horrible writing, and then doubled and tripled down by making franchise-changing retcons to the story that make it impossible to neatly clean up if it wasn't well received.

Me, I'm not charging back to watch the show again, but I will pay attention. If they manage to salvage this mess, I'll buy the season later and catch up on it. But if it's true that they're bringing Michelle Gomez back in the Thirteen's last season, maybe they can start to find a way back.

[Manga Shoggoth]

[SPOILER]Honestly, though, I'd just be happy if they started telling compelling stories again, maybe recast some previous events in a more coherent light. The Timeless Child story, for example, would be far better with one alteration. The child in question was Susan, not the Doctor. Maybe the Doctor was Tecteun, and regret for her cruelty is why the Doctor became what they did. Maybe Hartnell really was the first, and saw what was being done to Susan and simply said "No More." Either would be extremely compelling, I believe, and would do wonders for salvaging the Doctor from the wreck that story turned them into. Hell, if Tecteun was the Doctor's original incarnation, maybe that could explain why Thirteen is so... inconsistent, an incarnation pulling from non-Doctor aspects of their history, and the internal conflict making it hard to find her center. Or they could say she's just been out of practice being female - it has been over two thousand years, after all.

I'm pretty sure I remember hints in the original series or some of the novels that not only was the First Doctor escaping from the Time Lords, but that he was escaping with Susan in order to protect her from the Time Lords.

[Psyren]

The writing is the main problem. They brought in people with no sci-fi (much less Who-adjacent) writing experience who were far more interested in making statements than constructing a cohesive and entertaining plot.

Didn't Chibnall run a big chunk of Torchwood? I agree with most of your other complaints, but that show is definitely both sci-fi and Who-adjacent.

(I think a big problem is that it was also ensemble-cast, which Doctor Who very much is not, and Chibnall tried his damndest to jam that square peg into the round hole.)



I'm very against the Timeless Child twist. It ruins the very core of the Doctor. Not that they've always been male, but rather that they've never been "Special". What made the Doctor compelling, in my opinion, was that they were extremely intelligent, brave, compassionate, and relentless, but never special. They were just someone who looked at the world around them and said "This isn't who I want to be", and then (and this is the what makes them unique) did something about it. Ten wasn't the "Lonely God" because forty sages foretold his birth or because two divine entities got affectionate one day, he was just the one that survived - if you could even call it that.


I'm going to reserve judgment on this until I see how it plays out. I don't think it's realistic to say there should be nothing at all special about the Doctor relative to other Time Lords (the Bad Wolf entity picked him/her during the War after all). But above all I don't think everything we're being told about this twist is going to end up being the true, or at least not the whole truth.

With that said, Chibnall will now have had three seasons to take it somewhere interesting, so if he fails to do so it'll be a pretty big misstep.



As for the next Doctor, I think it'll probably be a white male, yes. Not because that's the only thing that people will accept, but because they need to tag back to past stability and familiarity before stepping back out into new territory.

I disagree, I think another female doctor is just what the show needs. This would show that the BBC isn't going to rush back to their comfort zone at the first sign of turbulence. It would also vindicate Jodie by helping to prove that her performance wasn't this incarnation's main issue.



Me, I'm not charging back to watch the show again, but I will pay attention. If they manage to salvage this mess, I'll buy the season later and catch up on it. But if it's true that they're bringing Michelle Gomez back in the Thirteen's last season, maybe they can start to find a way back.

More Missy would be amazing.

[Cikomyr2]

Didn't Chibnall run a big chunk of Torchwood? I agree with most of your other complaints, but that show is definitely both sci-fi and Who-adjacent.



I'm going to reserve judgment on this until I see how it plays out. I don't think it's realistic to say there should be nothing at all special about the Doctor relative to other Time Lords (the Bad Wolf entity picked him/her during the War after all). But above all I don't think everything we're being told about this twist is going to end up being the true, or at least not the whole truth.

With that said, Chibnall will now have had three seasons to take it somewhere interesting, so if he fails to do so it'll be a pretty big misstep.



I disagree, I think another female doctor is just what the show needs. This would show that the BBC isn't going to rush back to their comfort zone at the first sign of turbulence. It would also vindicate Jodie by helping to prove that her performance wasn't this incarnation's main issue.



More Missy would be amazing.

Missy has been my favourite Master.

she had.. nuances that are often missing from the Master. I prefer the Master to be a scheming machiavellian genious, not a ranting madman who happens to have done EVILLLLLLLL

Missy had great plans, but also she had her low moments when she had to cooperate. Her teaming up with Clara was great on Skarros. Great and scary, WHICH IS WHAT SHOULD BE WHEN YOU TEAM UP WITH THE MASTER

[Fyraltari]

Explanation 1: Outside of standard mild misogynist standard where many people (including the media) treat women with less respect than men and therefore will default to more casual way to approach, I'd argue Whittaker is hard to spell?
It's not, though. It's "White" and "taker" mashed together


Explanation 2: Matt Smith is literally 2 syllables. Eccleston's surname is literally longer to say than Matt Smith's entire name.
Fair

Whoops, sorry
No, problem.




For starters, because there are multiple who-adjacent folks with most of those names. "Chris" could be Eccleston or Chibnall, "Peter" could be Capaldi or Davison, "Matt" usually gets his full name anyway and Tennant is how he's referred to everywhere. Second, most of the famous "Whittakers" up till now like Forest and Robert have been male, so using her first name makes it clearer who we're talking about. Jodie is also shorter to type and she's the only one.
These don't really seem very convincing. Context would generally clear up any confusion. And the other Whittaker things don't really make sense either since people don't call Forest Whittaker "Forest" despite that being an uncommon first name too.


I also think people use solo family names for actresses less often in general. A lot of family names also just end up sounding more masculine, probably because wives and children have been taking their husbands' for centuries. You'll come across a ton more last names in English that end with "-son" than "-datter" etc as a result. Consider ScarJo - "Johannson" is a pretty masculine name, so calling her just that would be weird.
Would it? I've never thought surnames sound particularly maculine.

First, I have to say I am very much not a fan of Whittaker's run. I realize this might not be a popular take.
I have yet to find someone calling themselves a fan of those seasons.


She refused to watch the seasons that came before her
Source?



I'm very against the Timeless Child twist. It ruins the very core of the Doctor. Not that they've always been male, but rather that they've never been "Special". What made the Doctor compelling, in my opinion, was that they were extremely intelligent, brave, compassionate, and relentless, but never special. They were just someone who looked at the world around them and said "This isn't who I want to be", and then (and this is the what makes them unique) did something about it.
Hear, hear.

Ten wasn't the "Lonely God" because forty sages foretold his birth or because two divine entities got affectionate one day, he was just the one that survived - if you could even call it that.
Or rather, he was one the most self-aggrandizing Doctor, bar Six.



If it's a genuine effort, well, then I have some hope. If I had my druthers, we'd pretend 13 never happened
I'm more hoping for what happened with the movie. The show acknowledge that the movie and Eight happened, but the idea of the Doctor as half-human was quietly dropped.

Capaldi nailed the chemistry when working with Tennant and Smith, as well as David Bradley.
When did Capaldi work with Tennant and Smith?


Honestly, though, I'd just be happy if they started telling compelling stories again, maybe recast some previous events in a more coherent light. The Timeless Child story, for example, would be far better with one alteration. The child in question was Susan, not the Doctor. Maybe the Doctor was Tecteun, and regret for her cruelty is why the Doctor became what they did. Maybe Hartnell really was the first, and saw what was being done to Susan and simply said "No More." Either would be extremely compelling, I believe, and would do wonders for salvaging the Doctor from the wreck that story turned them into. Hell, if Tecteun was the Doctor's original incarnation, maybe that could explain why Thirteen is so... inconsistent, an incarnation pulling from non-Doctor aspects of their history, and the internal conflict making it hard to find her center. Or they could say she's just been out of practice being female - it has been over two thousand years, after all.
The Doctor being Tecteun makes little sense (how could they have forgotten?). If Tecteun shows up again, I think they'll jsut equate her with Rassilon. They both fill the "evil Time Lord founder" niche.

The Timeless Child could work if it were anybody but the Doctor, because it would mean that the Doctor has, unwittingly, been profiting from the exploitation of a sentient being this entire time. Now, every time they regenerate they are tacitly condoning what happened. How could they make it right? This could make for great stoeytelling. Hell, imagine if the Timeless Child were the Master! The Master already has an overinflated ego and the Doctor has a deep personal connection to them. Though, then it would raise questions as to why "Crispy Master" couldn't regenerate.



I'm pretty sure I remember hints in the original series or some of the novels that not only was the First Doctor escaping from the Time Lords, but that he was escaping with Susan in order to protect her from the Time Lords.
The Doctor left Gallifrey because he was bored and wanted to see the universe. Because he disagreed with the Time Lord's non-interference policy. Because he was disgusted by the Time Lord's hypocrisy. To hide the Hand of Omega. Because of the Hybrid Prophecy. To find out why good prevailed over evil in the universe. Because they were afraid looking into the Untempered Schism. To run away with the Lord President's daughter. Because of a family tragedy. Because of a scandal. And for a myriad other reason other authors have come up.


(I think a big problem is that it was also ensemble-cast, which Doctor Who very much is not, and Chibnall tried his damndest to jam that square peg into the round hole.)

Ian, Barbara and Susan, the UNIT family, and Tegan, Nyssa and Adric say hello.


I'm going to reserve judgment on this until I see how it plays out. I don't think it's realistic to say there should be nothing at all special about the Doctor relative to other Time Lords (the Bad Wolf entity picked him/her during the War after all).
You mean the Moment? It didn't pick him, he stole it from the Omega Vault.


More Missy would be amazing.
Meh, her arc is done. It would be nice to have her in a "multi-Master" story as part of an anniversary or something, but not as a "mainstay Master". That said, I would be onboard for a CyberMissy story or something.


she had.. nuances that are often missing from the Master. I prefer the Master to be a scheming machiavellian genious, not a ranting madman who happens to have done EVILLLLLLLL
I think the Master is best when their plans relate to the Doctor. Like her original scheme turned out to be to... Give the Doctor an army and a travelling companion as a co-dependent pet. That was brilliant! I really like it when they play up the Master being the Doctor's oldest friend and "best enemy".

[Calemyr]

Didn't Chibnall run a big chunk of Torchwood? I agree with most of your other complaints, but that show is definitely both sci-fi and Who-adjacent.

(I think a big problem is that it was also ensemble-cast, which Doctor Who very much is not, and Chibnall tried his damndest to jam that square peg into the round hole.)

Chibnall is the Showrunner. He wrote a couple of the episodes, but the showrunner isn't the writer for the most part. They look over the scripts, enforce consistency and make suggestions to thread episodes into one another, pick the actors, writers, and artists, and are generally in charge of the look and feel of the series more than the nitty-gritty of individual episodes.

Past seasons of Who used sci-fi and comedy writers for episodes, or returning writers such as Steven Moffat for most of Davies most famous episodes, but Chibnall hasn't (to my imperfect knowledge) used a single writer with a single writing credit to either genre. Instead, they've been primarily credited with political and social works. That's not to say this can't work, but in this case I strongly believe it didn't.


I'm going to reserve judgment on this until I see how it plays out. I don't think it's realistic to say there should be nothing at all special about the Doctor relative to other Time Lords (the Bad Wolf entity picked him/her during the War after all). But above all I don't think everything we're being told about this twist is going to end up being the true, or at least not the whole truth.

With that said, Chibnall will now have had three seasons to take it somewhere interesting, so if he fails to do so it'll be a pretty big misstep.


Bad Wolf picked him because he was the one who stole her from the vaults and attempted to use her to destroy both sides of a war. The fact that she didn't want to commit double genocide and thus would happily twist time into a pretzel to give him the chance to reconsider was a side effect of his actions, not because the Doctor was picked out of a crowd because he was special.


I disagree, I think another female doctor is just what the show needs. This would show that the BBC isn't going to rush back to their comfort zone at the first sign of turbulence. It would also vindicate Jodie by helping to prove that her performance wasn't this incarnation's main issue.

Doctor 15? Oh, yes. Give us Jo. Oh, please, give us a female Doctor I can root for. I would love that. Doctor 14, however? They are starting with a shattered fanbase, heavy socio-political conflict, little to no merchandise movement, a network that is hemorrhaging paying subscribers and not getting bailed out by their government, and a return to an old reputation of being subpar schlock. Honestly, I don't know how you fix that. Go "old white man" and half the world will revolt. Use anything else and the other half will accuse them of doubling down and revolt. It's a bad situation to be in.

Like I said by comparing it to Force Awakens, however, touching back to the classic formula after a misstep is generally a good idea. People are more willing to accept branching out into new territory once they're satisfied the story is still grounded. Although it hasn't been explicitly said, it's suggested by the wording that Davies is going to be a one-season Showrunner and that likely means his Doctor will be as well. They'll be the equivalent of Christopher Eccleston. Actually, Eccleston is also served a similar role as the Force Awakens: an already respected and talented actor taking a budget role in a generally disregarded series to resurrect it and give it some passion and chops so that people don't instantly equate it to "that campy show with monsters made of cardboard, bubble wrap, and tin foil". The level of success he achieved at this can only be described with one word: "Fantastic!".

When Fourteen steps off the stage, assuming they do their job properly, the stage will effectively be reset and right for experimentation. In walks Jo, or someone else. The palette will be cleansed and a well done female doctor could go down a treat.

Personally, however, I would rather have genuine female leads than a female Doctor. The Rani, Romana, even a reformed Missy*, or some other newly introduced Time Lord, preferably one that gets a season or two to cook in the Doctor Who stew before being spun off.

* Yes, I recognize the hypocrisy in this particular suggestion, as she's also a gender-bent Time Lord, but Missy is too good not to want a show starring her. If hypocrisy might give me that, it's just a badge I'll have to wear.

[QUOTE=Psyren;25212816]More Missy would be amazing.

Absolutely agreed. I love Capaldi, the man was awesome in the role, but Gomez stole the show with Missy, casting her as a natural villain forced to face the fact that her villainy never got her much in the end and cost her the friendship of the only peer she has left.

I am really hoping we find out that the current "Oh" Master is actually a previous one whose playing things out of sync, and Missy managed to survive her... temporally dislocated suicide via some shenanigans and remains the modern Missy. As long as third season Chibnall plays Missy as Missy, at least. If he bungles her as bad as most of the past two seasons, I'd rather save that for Fourteen's season.

[Psyren]

These don't really seem very convincing. Context would generally clear up any confusion. And the other Whittaker things don't really make sense either since people don't call Forest Whittaker "Forest" despite that being an uncommon first name too.


Would it? I've never thought surnames sound particularly maculine.

You're free to call her Whittaker if you'd prefer :smallsmile:



Ian, Barbara and Susan, the UNIT family, and Tegan, Nyssa and Adric say hello.

Hello right back, Old-Who-That-Isn't-Relevant-To-The-Current-Era. (format-wise, anyway.)



You mean the Moment? It didn't pick him, he stole it from the Omega Vault.

And anyone else who did that would have gotten the exact same result?
As the TARDIS itself shows us, thinking you are the one to have stolen something does not necessarily end up being the case.


Chibnall is the Showrunner. He wrote a couple of the episodes, but the showrunner isn't the writer for the most part. They look over the scripts, enforce consistency and make suggestions to thread episodes into one another, pick the actors, writers, and artists, and are generally in charge of the look and feel of the series more than the nitty-gritty of individual episodes.

Past seasons of Who used sci-fi and comedy writers for episodes, or returning writers such as Steven Moffat for most of Davies most famous episodes, but Chibnall hasn't (to my imperfect knowledge) used a single writer with a single writing credit to either genre. Instead, they've been primarily credited with political and social works. That's not to say this can't work, but in this case I strongly believe it didn't.

Wikipedia lists him as co-lead-writer for the bulk of series 1 and 2 alongside RTD, not "a couple of episodes." It even goes on to say that in the first series, RTD only wrote the premiere, meaning that Chibnall was lead writer for almost that whole season.

Regarding #14, I'm okay agreeing to disagree on that one. You're right about one thing, no matter what they do someone is going to be upset, but that was true before Jodie's announcement too.

[comicshorse]

The Doctor being Tecteun makes little sense (how could they have forgotten?). If Tecteun shows up again, I think they'll jsut equate her with Rassilon. They both fill the "evil Time Lord founder" niche.

The Timeless Child could work if it were anybody but the Doctor, because it would mean that the Doctor has, unwittingly, been profiting from the exploitation of a sentient being this entire time. Now, every time they regenerate they are tacitly condoning what happened. How could they make it right? This could make for great stoeytelling. Hell, imagine if the Timeless Child were the Master! The Master already has an overinflated ego and the Doctor has a deep personal connection to them. Though, then it would raise questions as to why "Crispy Master" couldn't regenerate.



Now you've mentioned this I like the idea he can only regenerate when he has fully died which means the Master was dragging himself around crippled and in agony for god knows how many years when all he had to do was give himself the final push and he'd be back in a fully healthy body.
Particularly as he is absolutely going to blame this on the Time Lords for not telling him about his unique ability to regenerate without limit. Decades of existing in constant pain is REALLY going to motivate him !

[Calemyr]

Source?

One of her interviews before her shows started airing. She was asked if she'd watched previous seasons of the show and, if she did, which were her favorite. Her response was that she didn't consider doing this to be useful and she'd rather do her own thing without being influenced by the past. I'll try to find a clip of it after work.


Or rather, he was one the most self-aggrandizing Doctor, bar Six.

A fair statement, but not the point. He was the Lonely God because he had the powers of a Time Lord without any of the oversight that was supposed to keep them in check or the comradery that a species like their relied on. None of this was because he was special, it was all because he was the only one that didn't die (or go AWOL).


When did Capaldi work with Tennant and Smith?

In the 50th Ann- Crap. That was the War Doctor, not 12. He just made a thrilling cameo at the climax. My bad. Suggesting charismatic old men can blend together over time is my only excuse.


The Doctor being Tecteun makes little sense (how could they have forgotten?). If Tecteun shows up again, I think they'll jsut equate her with Rassilon. They both fill the "evil Time Lord founder" niche.

The Timeless Child could work if it were anybody but the Doctor, because it would mean that the Doctor has, unwittingly, been profiting from the exploitation of a sentient being this entire time. Now, every time they regenerate they are tacitly condoning what happened. How could they make it right? This could make for great stoeytelling. Hell, imagine if the Timeless Child were the Master! The Master already has an overinflated ego and the Doctor has a deep personal connection to them. Though, then it would raise questions as to why "Crispy Master" couldn't regenerate.

The Doctor was long proposed to be (or at least descend from) the third great architect of the Time Lords, next to Rassilon and Omega (referred to only as "The Other"), with the Doctor's part in history being buried along with Omega's by a Rassilon who wanted the history of "his" race to be pure. This was part of the "Cartnell Master Plan" that had been in the works with the Seventh Doctor before the series got cancelled. Tecteun, being the source of Gallifrey's regeneration abilities and not natural superiority, would certainly explain the Doctor's expulsion - and possible memory editing.

Aside from Memory Editing, however, there's already a mechanic Eleven introduced that could explain it. When he was talking to Rory (post Auton phase), Rory asks him if he remembers every day of his life. He acknowledges he does. When asked how he copes, Eleven goes on to say he puts his past lives behind doors in his mind and doesn't go back to dredge up ghosts unless he needs to.

Being Tecteun, being responsible for finding and repeatedly murdering an alien child for her own curiosity, of creating the Time Lords and then being betrayed and removed from history, would be enough to cause anyone to slam the door on those memories tight, put locks on the door and locks on the locks, and then move so far beyond it that the memory of the memory fades. The Doctor's over two millennia old now using Hartnell as the starting point. That much time would make it easy to forget, especially if you wanted to. Still, the shame leaks through. Why do you think the Doctor insists so hard on being kind, on saving children, on being everything Tecteun wasn't? The War Doctor reminds them of her, and they shun him because of it.

That's just the extension of a theory, of course.


The Doctor left Gallifrey because he was bored and wanted to see the universe. Because he disagreed with the Time Lord's non-interference policy. Because he was disgusted by the Time Lord's hypocrisy. To hide the Hand of Omega. Because of the Hybrid Prophecy. To find out why good prevailed over evil in the universe. Because they were afraid looking into the Untempered Schism. To run away with the Lord President's daughter. Because of a family tragedy. Because of a scandal. And for a myriad other reason other authors have come up.

All of which is currently invalidated without a major retcon, anyway. It's good to hide the Doctor's past behind a mess of lies and misdirections, but right now we have too many established facts that do not jive together.


Ian, Barbara and Susan, the UNIT family, and Tegan, Nyssa and Adric say hello.

True. Large parties do not drag Doctor Who down. Bad writing that cannot give multiple individuals identities beyond a couple surface cliff notes is.


Meh, her arc is done. It would be nice to have her in a "multi-Master" story as part of an anniversary or something, but not as a "mainstay Master". That said, I would be onboard for a CyberMissy story or something.

Is it? Missy did, in the end, choose the Doctor's cause, but only at the last second and didn't have time to live with the consequences. An arc with Missy actively believing it's the right thing to do while still struggling with her instinct instead of just humoring her only friend would be a fitting follow-up. Missy ultimately deriving her own unique identity as a dangerously unpredictable maverick on the side of the angels (while not being one of them) would be a worthy premise in and of itself.

[Fyraltari]

You're free to call her Whittaker if you'd prefer :smallsmile:
I do.




Hello right back, Old-Who-That-Isn't-Relevant-To-The-Current-Era. (format-wise, anyway.)
Now you've gone from "DW" isn't an ensemble cast show to "the current format doesn't allow it" which seems even odder to me as there are definitely ensemble cast shows of that length.




And anyone else who did that would have gotten the exact same result?
Yes. The Moment would have picked some other point of theor timeline to show themt onconvince them not to use it.

As the TARDIS itself shows us, thinking you are the one to have stolen something does not necessarily end up being the case.
Err... Are you siggesting the Moment manipulated the Doctor into stealing it and then spent the entire episode trying to convince the Doctor to puth it back where he found it? Because, that's an original take.



Now you've mentioned this I like the idea he can only regenerate when he has fully died
This goes against the one constant thing about how regeneration is portrayed (you have to be near-death but not actually dead yet for it to kick in).

[Psyren]

Now you've gone from "DW" isn't an ensemble cast show to "the current format doesn't allow it" which seems even odder to me as there are definitely ensemble cast shows of that length.

It's less "doesn't allow" and more "isn't well-suited." NuWho is Doctor + Companion. Occasionally you get two companions (Amy+Rory) or you get primary+secondary (Rose+Mickey.) And even for the former Amy was more primary. That's not a true ensemble.

You do get a broader cast of secondary characters from time to time, like Rose and Martha's families, or Wilfred Mott, but the important thing is that they only have to be around when needed and can be left at home when not. By putting three other people in the TARDIS permanently, that wasn't an option, and Chibnall ended up spreading all of them thin as a result.

Old Who had different formats - sometimes radically different, in the 3rd Doctor's case. And that is fine for what the show was - back then.


Yes. The Moment would have picked some other point of theor timeline to show themt onconvince them not to use it.
...
Err... Are you siggesting the Moment manipulated the Doctor into stealing it and then spent the entire episode trying to convince the Doctor to puth it back where he found it? Because, that's an original take.

He had a lesson he needed to learn (all of him, from War to Current.) Taking the Moment, and actually having his finger poised over that button, was essential. Seeing who he became from having pressed it (to quote the Moment - "The One who Regrets, and The One who Forgets") were also essential. He couldn't have evolved otherwise, and she(?) knew it.

Moreover, you're forgetting that he did press that button before, which is where 9 and 10 and 11 came from. So it was already out of the box and could thus manipulate his timeline.

[Fyraltari]

One of her interviews before her shows started airing. She was asked if she'd watched previous seasons of the show and, if she did, which were her favorite. Her response was that she didn't consider doing this to be useful and she'd rather do her own thing without being influenced by the past. I'll try to find a clip of it after work.
That's be nice, thank you. It sounds interesting.



In the 50th Ann- Crap. That was the War Doctor, not 12. He just made a thrilling cameo at the climax. My bad. Suggesting charismatic old men can blend together over time is my only excuse.
If he were alive, John would be Hurt by this.




The Doctor was long proposed to be (or at least descend from) the third great architect of the Time Lords, next to Rassilon and Omega (referred to only as "The Other"), with the Doctor's part in history being buried along with Omega's by a Rassilon who wanted the history of "his" race to be pure. This was part of the "Cartnell Master Plan" that had been in the works with the Seventh Doctor before the series got cancelled. Tecteun, being the source of Gallifrey's regeneration abilities and not natural superiority, would certainly explain the Doctor's expulsion - and possible memory editing.
Cartmel himself is on record stating that the idea of a "Masterplan" is overblown, it was more a collzction of vague ideas they had to make the character more mysterious. Which was a bad call in my humble opinion.


Aside from Memory Editing, however, there's already a mechanic Eleven introduced that could explain it. When he was talking to Rory (post Auton phase), Rory asks him if he remembers every day of his life. He acknowledges he does. When asked how he copes, Eleven goes on to say he puts his past lives behind doors in his mind and doesn't go back to dredge up ghosts unless he needs to.

Being Tecteun, being responsible for finding and repeatedly murdering an alien child for her own curiosity, of creating the Time Lords and then being betrayed and removed from history, would be enough to cause anyone to slam the door on those memories tight, put locks on the door and locks on the locks, and then move so far beyond it that the memory of the memory fades. The Doctor's over two millennia old now using Hartnell as the starting point. That much time would make it easy to forget, especially if you wanted to. Still, the shame leaks through. Why do you think the Doctor insists so hard on being kind, on saving children, on being everything Tecteun wasn't? The War Doctor reminds them of her, and they shun him because of it.

That's just the extension of a theory, of course.
Thing is this theory require the Doctor to have willfully forgotten, not just the Tecteun incarnation, but millions of years. The entire history of the Time Lords. That's a large pill to swallow.



Is it? Missy did, in the end, choose the Doctor's cause, but only at the last second and didn't have time to live with the consequences. An arc with Missy actively believing it's the right thing to do while still struggling with her instinct instead of just humoring her only friend would be a fitting follow-up. Missy ultimately deriving her own unique identity as a dangerously unpredictable maverick on the side of the angels (while not being one of them) would be a worthy premise in and of itself.
Thing is, either you give the Master their own spin-off show or you have them as companion of the Doctor which I don't think would work long-term.

It's less "doesn't allow" and more "isn't well-suited." NuWho is Doctor + Companion. Occasionally you get two companions (Amy+Rory) or you get primary+secondary (Rose+Mickey.) And even for the former Amy was more primary. That's not a true ensemble.

You do get a broader cast of secondary characters from time to time, like Rose and Martha's families, or Wilfred Mott, but the important thing is that they only have to be around when needed and can be left at home when not. By putting three other people in the TARDIS permanently, that wasn't an option, and Chibnall ended up spreading all of them thin as a result.

Old Who had different formats - sometimes radically different, in the 3rd Doctor's case. And that is fine for what the show was - back then.
Again, ensemble casts do work in this format. Just because the revival mostly focused on one companion at a time doesn't mean it has to always be like that.




He had a lesson he needed to learn (all of him, from War to Current.) Taking the Moment, and actually having his finger poised over that button, was essential. Seeing who he became from having pressed it (to quote the Moment - "The One who Regrets, and The One who Forgets") were also essential. He couldn't have evolved otherwise, and she(?) knew it.
Yes, the Moment showed him what it would mean for him to destroy Gallifrey, in order to get him not to do it. That's her/it stated intent in the episode. She's a weapon of mass destruction with a conscience, so she doesn't want to be used ever. Therefore whenever someone tries to use her she convinces them not to. That's the plot of the episode. What makes you think she orchestrated this to give this random general a life-lesson, when there's a literal war going on around them and Rassilon is trying to end all time two blocks over to become a god?

Moreover, you're forgetting that he did press that button before, which is where 9 and 10 and 11 came from. So it was already out of the box and could thus manipulate his timeline.
No he didn't. He thought he did. That's the point of the end of the episode mimicking the desteuction of Gallifrey by freezing it in time. Because there were several Doctors present he forgot about the meeting and it's exact events but remembers most of it (like it sort of always happen, at least in the revival it's consistent). So he remembers clearly walking into the shed with the Moment intent on blowing Gallifrey up and he remembers flying away in the Tardis, with a whole lotta nothing where Gallifrey and the Dalek fleet used to be so he thought he pressed the button and exploded the planet.

If the timeline were changed during the episode then Nine, Ten and Eleven would have been retconned out of existence and that is not what happened.

[Calemyr]

It's less "doesn't allow" and more "isn't well-suited." NuWho is Doctor + Companion. Occasionally you get two companions (Amy+Rory) or you get primary+secondary (Rose+Mickey.) And even for the former Amy was more primary. That's not a true ensemble.

You do get a broader cast of secondary characters from time to time, like Rose and Martha's families, or Wilfred Mott, but the important thing is that they only have to be around when needed and can be left at home when not. By putting three other people in the TARDIS permanently, that wasn't an option, and Chibnall ended up spreading all of them thin as a result.

Old Who had different formats - sometimes radically different, in the 3rd Doctor's case. And that is fine for what the show was - back then.

I will grant you that they've done far better with one or two companions. That much is absolutely true. I don't agree that it's not suitable for larger casts, however. I would instead suggest that Chibnall's run is just fantastically incapable of handling its characters in general. Ignoring Thirteen's own utter lack of identity, I would submit that not any character (major or minor) in Chibnall's era is as well defined as even many bit characters in previous eras. Graham comes close, closer than anyone else, but even he is poorly defined compared to previous characters. Personal details only crop up when they are relevant to the plot ("My late wife originally was worried I was like the driver from Rosa Parks' time" during the episode regarding Parks herself. Reasonable, yes, but no characterisation that doesn't serve the specific episode). And they treat Graham like crap. He genuinely opened up to Thirteen about his fear of his cancer returning without Grace to help him through it, and the Doctor just says "I'd like to help, but I'm socially awkward, so... bye."


He had a lesson he needed to learn (all of him, from War to Current.) Taking the Moment, and actually having his finger poised over that button, was essential. Seeing who he became from having pressed it (to quote the Moment - "The One who Regrets, and The One who Forgets") were also essential. He couldn't have evolved otherwise, and she(?) knew it.

Moreover, you're forgetting that he did press that button before, which is where 9 and 10 and 11 came from. So it was already out of the box and could thus manipulate his timeline.

That is a fair argument, and an intriguing interpretation, but it is a stretch in the sense that it requires more unfounded assumptions to reach than the standard conclusion.

As for the end of the Time War... I really have no idea what to say about of that. The franchise's comedically incoherent relationship with ontology and timeline consistency really makes it hard to say anything with even the vaguest delusion of authority. All I can say is that the established memory-effecting nature of time loops means that it's very hard to tell what War and Ten remember from the events of the special. It's fairly strongly suggested that Nine only remembers his intention with the Moment and the fact that both races vanished shortly after, naturally assuming he was guilty of a double-genocide. It then follows that a timeline where the Moment did the genocides is unnecessary. The memories and facts don't change.


Thing is this theory require the Doctor to have willfully forgotten, not just the Tecteun incarnation, but millions of years. The entire history of the Time Lords. That's a large pill to swallow.

Right now, we have a canon that is so <REDACTED> up that there is no way to make something consistent of the over-all narrative without either a) completely striking a section of it from canon, or b) creating one hell of a large pill to swallow.

Personally, I greatly prefer that Hartnell is the first and stole the Timeless Child from her imprisonment, and that the Master (who has already shown a talent for modifying the "inviolable" Matrix as well as a novel approach to curating history) simply lied to screw up an already unstable Doctor. Doctor and Master remain peers, Doctor doesn't have the memories she doesn't remember, all past canon still works, new canon is dismissed as a lie by a known liar.

But some people are going to be very insistent that the Doctor's initial form be female, and Tecteun is a... passable compromise. I don't like it, but it's better than the Doctor being a holy baby from another reality who gets the worst possible parental figure possible.


Thing is, either you give the Master their own spin-off show or you have them as companion of the Doctor which I don't think would work long-term.

Yes, Missy as a spinoff would be my ideal path for that. Otherwise, making her an inconsistent ally like Captain Jack, River Song, or Rose, showing up at odd times to bail the Doctor out or drag them into problems that need the Doctor's unique brand of "fixing". As a guest star, though, she would need to remain a very unstable force, very at home with ruthless solutions and never patient with the hand-wringing of heroes.

[Cikomyr2]

My favourite Capaldi moment was when he just decided he wanted to rock an electric guitar as the Doctor, and they let him.

his summary of the Beethoven paradox is awesome

[Psyren]

Again, ensemble casts do work in this format. Just because the revival mostly focused on one companion at a time doesn't mean it has to always be like that.

They certainly can but the deck is stacked against them. It works for a show like Torchwood or Buffy because they have various constants - new monsters might pop up week to week, but the main locations, tertiary cast, and what the characters do in their downtime (work or school) are fairly consistent and straightforward. For a more madcap show that relies on vastly different locations and tertiary cast every episode, you don't have a lot of time to be thinking "Ok, here's what the Doctor and Graham are doing, now we need to figure out Ryan and Yaz, plus the 2-3 new characters we introduced, along with the monster, while we're also introducing the new place, and planting seeds for the finale."

I'm not saying it's impossible, rather I'm saying it was a bad idea for Chibnall to try, but with his background in Torchwood and Broadchurch he gravitated back towards what he knew, and his run suffered for it.



Yes, the Moment showed him what it would mean for him to destroy Gallifrey, in order to get him not to do it. That's her/it stated intent in the episode. She's a weapon of mass destruction with a conscience, so she doesn't want to be used ever. Therefore whenever someone tries to use her she convinces them not to. That's the plot of the episode. What makes you think she orchestrated this to give this random general a life-lesson, when there's a literal war going on around them and Rassilon is trying to end all time two blocks over to become a god?

No he didn't. He thought he did. That's the point of the end of the episode mimicking the desteuction of Gallifrey by freezing it in time. Because there were several Doctors present he forgot about the meeting and it's exact events but remembers most of it (like it sort of always happen, at least in the revival it's consistent). So he remembers clearly walking into the shed with the Moment intent on blowing Gallifrey up and he remembers flying away in the Tardis, with a whole lotta nothing where Gallifrey and the Dalek fleet used to be so he thought he pressed the button and exploded the planet.

If the timeline were changed during the episode then Nine, Ten and Eleven would have been retconned out of existence and that is not what happened.

Yes, exactly, it was a giant paradox. Doctor Who has never had those.


My favourite Capaldi moment was when he just decided he wanted to rock an electric guitar as the Doctor, and they let him.

his summary of the Beethoven paradox is awesome

I have a LOT of favorite Capaldi moments (he supplanted 9 as my favorite doctor overall) and that one is definitely up there.

[Calemyr]

I have a LOT of favorite Capaldi moments (he supplanted 9 as my favorite doctor overall) and that one is definitely up there.

Personal favorites:
1) To the Teller: "How do you like my outfit? I was going for 'minimalist' but I think I came up with 'stage magician'."
2) Brandishing an electric guitar in a duel with a medieval warrior: "You told me to bring an axe."
3) As Clara and Missy are wondering if he noticed them, he answers by playing "Pretty Woman".
4) To Clara shortly after regeneration: "These are ATTACK EYEBROWS!"
5) Regarding shrinking technology for medicine: "Ah, yes. Excellent idea for a movie. Horrible idea for a proctologist."
6) Time Lord Victorious: "You might say that's one hell of a long time, I say that's one hell of a bird!"
7) Regarding Ravens: "Of course they can talk, they just refuse to. They're just having one big sulk!"
8) Twelve's perfect gambit in Chess: "I flip the board over!"
9) Protecting Missy from the Executioners: "Nobody said she had to be dead!"
10) Intimidating the Executioners: "Look me up under 'Cause of Death'."
11) Anything regarding his paranoia regarding his "browser history".

[Psyren]

^ Yes to all, but basically everything in Heaven Sent and Zygon Inversion and Thin Ice and...

[Fyraltari]

Just the whole sonic sunglasses thing.

[Anonymouswizard]

Honestly the more I see if Classic Who, with all it's jankiness, the less enthused about Nu Who I get. Part of it is the shorter stories formed into ten episode arcs every single season. Part of it is how 10, 11, and 12 all seemed to be attracted to humans. Post of it is that I actually like having the Time Lords around to Mrs things up. And a large part is how much the sonic screwdriver gets used, and yet now seems to be incapable of driving a access.

As far as I'm concerned RYD was responsible for the best and the worst modern Doctor, so I'm just on a wait and see pattern.

The weird thing is that I was somewhat excited for 13, but lost interest when I discovered she got her TARDIS back by the second episode. I was actually hoping we'd get a brief second period of her being stuck on Earth spending the series trying to track the TARDIS down and roped into stuff by UNIT.

[Psyren]

13 separated from her TARDIS and forced to work with UNIT for a bit could have been fun, except (a) 12 had just done a bunch of UNIT stuff (e.g. Zygon Invasion/Inversion) but more importantly (b) that would exacerbate the problem of her "fam"/the cast already being stuffed with people imo, as now you'd have UNIT regulars in multiple episodes too.

[Anonymouswizard]

13 separated from her TARDIS and forced to work with UNIT for a bit could have been fun, except (a) 12 had just done a bunch of UNIT stuff (e.g. Zygon Invasion/Inversion) but more importantly (b) that would exacerbate the problem of her "fam"/the cast already being stuffed with people imo, as now you'd have UNIT regulars in multiple episodes too.

In theory you'd begin with 13 and UNIT and then introduce the Fam doesn't over the series. But I get your point.

Although modern Who has booked me for years. I stopped watching near the end of 11, tried to rejoin with 12 but hard the stories, then have it another go with 13. Then left because they'd introduced an interesting plot thread for at least half a season and resolved it after two stories for a format I wasn't interested in.

On the plus side, I believe Chibnall finally ditched the romantic elements, especially the Doctor X Companion ones. This series already has one true hinge, and that's TARDIS-Doctor-Master.

[Psyren]

Doctor X Companion ended with Capaldi. But there was still some companion romance stuff with Clara x Danny and Bill x ...uh... weird water alien chick?

[Calemyr]

Doctor X Companion ended with Capaldi. But there was still some companion romance stuff with Clara x Danny and Bill x ...uh... weird water alien chick?

Agreed. One of Twelve's lines in the first episode is "Clara, I'm not your boyfriend." "I know that." "You're not the one that needed reminding." Despite the Doctor-standard tendency to flirt with everyone and everything, Twelve only has one romantic interest and that is River. He rarely had anything positive to say about anyone human's appearance. (Remember, River is effectively a Time Lord despite her parentage.) Heck, I think he displayed more attraction to the Tyrannosaur to any of the humans.

For the most part, however, the Doctors are not easily attracted to humans. They're attractive to humans. Human ladies tend to quickly develop a romantic interest in the Doctors, but they're not usually inclined to reciprocate, often times actively trying distance himself from his pursuer. Even Ten, the most romance-oriented of the bunch, was thrilled to travel with Donna because she was more interested in the adventure than the adventurer. Rose works because she met Nine when he was broken and aimless, and even then it took semi-clone of Ten to actually acknowledge the attraction.

The romantic angle is way too common, absolutely. I do get tired of it quickly when it just keeps getting brought up. Rose and River are the only ones I consider worth the time. Rose saved him when he desperately needed it, and River was the closest thing to an equal that he had - at least that wasn't completely evil.

[halfeye]

For the most part, however, the Doctors are not easily attracted to humans.

You are perhaps forgetting the end of Three's stint.

[Psyren]

Rose and River are the only ones I consider worth the time. Rose saved him when he desperately needed it, and River was the closest thing to an equal that he had - at least that wasn't completely evil.

I, uh... hate both of them :smalltongue: Rose getting left on that beach was my favorite scene with her. And if they never bring up River again it'll be too soon, that whole thing still hurts my brain.

[Rynjin]

They never topped Donna TBH.

[Anonymouswizard]

River Song was not a Time Lord, and certainly not a Gallifreyan. So she goes on my 'should not be a romantic interest of the Doctor' list as well.

As to Three, I never read him as being into any of his companions. Jo potentially was attracted to him by the end, especially as she married somebody who essentially was 'the Doctor, but human', but I'm not convinced it was a two way street.

And it's a shame that, in over thirty seasons, the only companion to top Jo Grant was Doctor Evelyn Smythe.

[Fyraltari]

They weren't allowed to say it out loud at the time but it's pretty clear the actors are playing it as Four being romantically involved with Sarah Jane and, later, Romana.

Also, wasn't it confirmed by Moffat and the actors that Twelve and Clara's relationship was meant to be interpreted romantically (although never fullfilled)?

[Anonymouswizard]

Romana at least makes sense, she is a Gallifreyan (and I believe the Doctor thought their spouse was dead at the time). And while I very much get that Room Baker and Elizabeth Sladen played it as if their characters were heading for the biggest bang in history I still don't like it (and it's at least much more subtle than all that Rose stuff).

[Cen]

They never topped Donna TBH.

Agreed.

And people complaining about doctor romancing with companions?
Who was he romancing with? Tenth Doctor? After Rose was Martha who was hot for Doctor but he had no interest, Donna who was just a mate, with Eleven there are compliations on youtube with him acting totaly asexual to her. Granted River was annoying, but she was not a regular companion, more like a recurring character.
With Capaldi's Doctor.. I don't remember any signes of being romanticalyy interested in anyone apart from occasional River episode.
Seriously I thing it was Cring with Rose that coded Doctor + Romance = bad in our minds.

[Precure]

Agreed. One of Twelve's lines in the first episode is "Clara, I'm not your boyfriend." "I know that." "You're not the one that needed reminding."

Only people romantically linked have dialogue like that.

[Cikomyr2]

Agreed.

And people complaining about doctor romancing with companions?
Who was he romancing with? Tenth Doctor? After Rose was Martha who was hot for Doctor but he had no interest, Donna who was just a mate, with Eleven there are compliations on youtube with him acting totaly asexual to her. Granted River was annoying, but she was not a regular companion, more like a recurring character.
With Capaldi's Doctor.. I don't remember any signes of being romanticalyy interested in anyone apart from occasional River episode.
Seriously I thing it was Cring with Rose that coded Doctor + Romance = bad in our minds.

For me the real misstep was Martha. We just had a huge emotional departure from Rose, and they expected us to get invested in another one-way relationship?!

Martha was a fantastic character. She had some of the best character nuance, but they focused on her everpining on the doctor. I hated that she was reduced to the rebound companion.

[Anonymouswizard]

Let's be fair, all Companions dinner Ian and Barbara left have just been replacements for Susan.

Yes, even Jamie.

[Calemyr]

Only people romantically linked have dialogue like that.

I read it as "Yeah, we've been having them be too flirty and really muddled it up. We're setting the tone right here."


As for companions, my personal favorites are:
1) Donna - There's no beating the Noble, sorry. She had heart, fire, and will, and who she was fits perfectly with where she came from - a perfectly complete package of an imperfect character. It is beautiful to see someone who genuinely sees the Doctor as a true friend and travelling companion and will straight up slap the man if lets himself get in his own way. Part annoying, part inspiring, and just flat out the perfect foil to Tennant for telling engaging stories.

2) Amy - Fiery redhead with no reservation for taking the Doctor to task? I may have a type. Well, while the chemistry of Tennant and Donna made their episodes engaging, Amy's energy and luscious accent made pretty much any scene with her in it just extremely fun. I would have LOVED to see Amy and Missy in a scene, just trying one up each-other for raw, scenery chewing entertainment. To make matters ten times better, Moffat was willing to allow Amy to age and evolve. Get married, have a kid, get a house, have a career and then have to change to another one. Out of all of the Doctor's companions, she's probably the one who had the fullest life, and yet she still never passed up a chance to travel with the Doctor when he stopped by. Also, married to Rory, who I'd absolutely put second here if I didn't consider him Amy's companion rather than the Doctor's.

3) Bill - Just like Donna was the perfect counterpoint to Tennant, Bill is the perfect counterpart to Capaldi - the eager student with no shortage of unrefined intelligence and an open perspective that lets her see things from an angle nobody else really does. From small things like asking "Doctor What?" and pointing out that the TARDIS is "Smaller on the outside", to large things like opining that the Doctor likes the police box disguise because (even if he isn't a big fan of authority) he has always been enamored with being the one people can rely on when they're in trouble. She sees things other companions don't see, and asks questions regarding things she realizes she doesn't see. I don't begrudge her orientation, and all the more to have an definitively incompatible companion for the Doctor, but I really wish they hadn't taken every opportunity to point it out.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Honestly the more I see if Classic Who, with all it's jankiness, the less enthused about Nu Who I get. Part of it is the shorter stories formed into ten episode arcs every single season. Part of it is how 10, 11, and 12 all seemed to be attracted to humans. Post of it is that I actually like having the Time Lords around to Mrs things up. And a large part is how much the sonic screwdriver gets used, and yet now seems to be incapable of driving a access.

One of the great things about the original was the multi-part serial. The full story spun out over four* to twelve weeks, and you had time to concentrate on story. However, when the new version started up, I found I rather liked the single episode format. Do it well, and you don't need to be wedded to either format.

(I should note that I stopped watching the new series rather quickly - I had stopped watching the original some time during (Colin) Baker's run, and after that only watched one or two episodes. I think I made a point of watching the first three episodes just to see how well they did the new setup, and then everything else I have seen is by repeat on a episode by episode basis)



13 separated from her TARDIS and forced to work with UNIT for a bit could have been fun, except (a) 12 had just done a bunch of UNIT stuff (e.g. Zygon Invasion/Inversion) but more importantly (b) that would exacerbate the problem of her "fam"/the cast already being stuffed with people imo, as now you'd have UNIT regulars in multiple episodes too.

They did something simillar for the early Pertwee stories, as I recall.






* There were some shorter ones, but they were quite rare, as I recall.

[Anonymouswizard]

One of the great things about the original was the multi-part serial. The full story spun out over four* to twelve weeks, and you had time to concentrate on story. However, when the new version started up, I found I rather liked the single episode format. Do it well, and you don't need to be wedded to either format.

(I should note that I stopped watching the new series rather quickly - I had stopped watching the original some time during (Colin) Baker's run, and after that only watched one or two episodes. I think I made a point of watching the first three episodes just to see how well they did the new setup, and then everything else I have seen is by repeat on a episode by episode basis)

To me the problem isn't serials versus single episodes as much as good single episodes have made series long story arcs the standard. Now my preference is for a two to three hour story told as a serial, but I admit that it has it's own issues (such as the tendency to pad a three episode serial into for episodes).

I'm nowhere near Colin Baker, still on the second series of Tom Baker, so I'm aware that there's a five in quality to come. But I just love serials, and wish they'd make a return.

I understand I'm in the minority though, and that most people don't want their Dalek focused story arc to be spread across four years and two Doctors (and that's just their first loose arc). But I think the season long arcs work better when they're rarer. The normal story length being an hour instead of two to three is fine, but I'd just like it to sometimes end the season on 'another adventure' instead of 'the have finale'

[Cen]

3) Bill - (...)and pointing out that the TARDIS is "Smaller on the outside",

I think it was Clara that did it first.
BTW I can't stand Clara.

[Anonymouswizard]

Benton still has the best reaction to entering the TARDIS.

[Fyraltari]

I'm nowhere near Colin Baker, still on the second series of Tom Baker, so I'm aware that there's a five in quality to come.

Yes, Five usually comes between Four and Six. :smalltongue:

[Anonymouswizard]

Yes, Five usually comes between Four and Six. :smalltongue:

Wait, we're not counting Cushing? :smalltongue:

[Manga Shoggoth]

Wait, we're not counting Cushing? :smalltongue:

I enjoyed both of those films. In my mind both were better than the one with Paul McGan.

[Anonymouswizard]

I enjoyed both of those films. In my mind both were better than the one with Paul McGan.

Eh, I actually like Doctor Who the Movie. It has some major issues but it's also a pretty solid Master story with one of my favourite Doctors.

The Cushing films aren't bad as some pulpy science fiction, and let's be honest that's what the series is. But they're also very much their own thing, and I'd much rather rewatch the serials.