Knife Throwing Build

[RNightstalker]

Hey Playground,

I'm looking for other ideas to incorporate besides the two main PrCs (that I know of) for this concept: Master Thrower and Bloodstorm Blade. As well as classes, different kinds of knives to throw, maybe even figuring out how to throw larger sized knives/daggers. Is there a way to incorporate TWF so you're throwing a full attack with both hands? Things like that. Thanks.

Oh yeah, I'd prefer to go human, but if there's a way to get extra hands throwing knives, the more the merrier.

[Particle_Man]

Well depending on your commitment to human there is the whisperknife prestige class. You need to be a halfling though.

[Thurbane]

Here is an excellent guide to knives and knife-related things: A Subtle Knife: Options for Players and DMs using the Dagger (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?596810)

[RNightstalker]

Well depending on your commitment to human there is the whisperknife prestige class. You need to be a halfling though.

Good looking. I'll have to mull it over. Going halfling loses the human bonus feat, which can hamper PrC entry. Requiring sneak attack and 4 feats means fighter with a Rogue dip or something comparable; otherwise the earliest entry for a straight Rogue is 10th.


Here is an excellent guide to knives and knife-related things: A Subtle Knife: Options for Players and DMs using the Dagger (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?596810)

A bunch of good stuff in there. At first glance there's a bunch of good stuff I'll have to come back through more thoroughly sometime this weekend.

I'm actually trying to base this build somewhat off of a character in an old western, and when I do play him I'll be working on the DM to allow him to have a Hammer of Thunderbolts that's actually a small warhammer, not a large.

[ShurikVch]

My alternate suggestion: slap Half-Ogre(/Half-Minotaur) template on a Human, max your Str, take the Brutal Throw feat, enter the Hulking Hurler PrC, use Meteor Strike trick to throw Large-sized Manyfang Dagger; then - go into the War Hulk PrC for Str bonus

[daremetoidareyo]

ballisteer (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030426b)?

[AceDragonKing]

Soul knife isn’t a bad way to go. And it’s a base class so 1-20 and it’s damage scales as you lvl up and you get to throw said mind blades (also you get to enchant the blades)

[Thurbane]

I'm actually trying to base this build somewhat off of a character in an old western, and when I do play him I'll be working on the DM to allow him to have a Hammer of Thunderbolts that's actually a small warhammer, not a large.

James Coburn from Magnificent Seven, by any chance?

One of my favourite movies when I was younger.

[Darg]

Soul knife isn’t a bad way to go. And it’s a base class so 1-20 and it’s damage scales as you lvl up and you get to throw said mind blades (also you get to enchant the blades)

Complete psionic has the double weapon mindblade feats that function as the exotic weapon proficiency feat. This let's you qualify for exotic weapon master which has some interesting stunts.

4 levels give you a +1 magic weapon (as defined by DMG so technically can be enhanced normally when dumping SK levels) that can't be permanently sundered and 30 ft range increment which matches a javelin. 5th level let's you full attack with all your attacks and you get a 1d10 (2d8 enlarged) throwable 2h weapon or you can stick with the 1d6 to TWF with them. Free Draw would also let you retrain the Quickdraw feat from master thrower level 1, and Throw Mindblade let's you do the same thing with the Throw Anything feat from BsB.

A human soulknife could get all the feats necessary to qualify for master thrower and bloodstorm blade at first level. I'd suggest getting Brutal throw and power attack

5 levels of War Mind gives you a neat combo with thunderous throw. You can hit some one with a ranged attack and damage 2 adjacent squares that you threaten. This can double up with master thrower's Two With One Blow trick.

[Maat Mons]

For a psionic thrower, I'd be more inclined to do a build using the Telekinetic Boomerang power than a build using Soulknife.

Kineticist, Psychic Warrior, and War Mind all have native access to Telekinetic Boomerang. Kineticist gets it at 5th level, Psychic Warrior at 7th, and War Mind at 6th (ECL 11). Other classes can gain access via the Expanded Knowledge feat, but not before 9th level.

Psychic Warrior and War Mind both also have native access to the Perfect Archery power. Psychic Warrior gets it at 4th, and War Mind at 4th (ECL 9). Other classes can gain access via the Expanded Knowledge feat, but not before 6th level.

If you use a Wisdom-based manifester, the Zen Archery feat could be beneficial. Some Wisdom-Based manifesters are Ardent, Psychic Warrior, and War Mind. If you don't mind being a goody-two-shoes, Intuitive Attack could be used instead of Zen Archery.

Alternately, the Brutal Throw feat would be another way of eliminating the need for Dexterity. And Brutal Throw leads right into Power Throw.

[ShurikVch]

One more possibility: a Sorcerer (or Warmage) with the Whirling Blade spell (if possible - use it with Crescent Knives)

[holbita]

Good looking. I'll have to mull it over. Going halfling loses the human bonus feat, which can hamper PrC entry. Requiring sneak attack and 4 feats means fighter with a Rogue dip or something comparable; otherwise the earliest entry for a straight Rogue is 10th.

Strongheart halfling can get you a bonus feat, then just dipping a level of fighter or swashbuckler (anything that gives you a bonus feat) allows you to access at level 6, but if you drop rogue for sneak attack fighter even doing entry at level 5 is possible.

[Anthrowhale]

Exotic Weapon Master has 'close quarters ranged combat'. Master Thrower has something similar, but this works better, frees up a thrown weapon trick, and is an easy entry if you are going master thrower.

The Boomerang Daze feat is wonderful. Combine it with Craven, Lady's Gambit, and/or Windup/Power Throw to deliver a robustly scaling daze. The ability to daze lock tough opponents is a serious level-up for a thrower build.

[bean illus]

Strongheart halfling can get you a bonus feat, then just dipping a level of fighter or swashbuckler (anything that gives you a bonus feat) allows you to access at level 6, but if you drop rogue for sneak attack fighter even doing entry at level 5 is possible.

Something like this?
It looks feasible. It's The better if Quickdraw is retrained. The build goes either direction from 5th.

Strongheart halfling
Halfling racial weapon proficiency: EWP Warsling
Racial Bonus Feat: PBS

1. Swashbuckler, Weapon finesse, TWF
2. Dirty Fighter, 1d6, Hit-and-Run Tactics


3. Dirty Fighter, 1d6, Quickdraw

4. Warblade, Battle clarity, weapon aptitude
5. Whisperknife, Rapid Shot, uncanny dodge
6. Master Thrower, Thrown weapon trick, Quickdraw = open, EWFocus warsling

7. Bloodstorm Blade, Returning attacks, Throw anything
8. Exotic Weapon Master, Close Quarters Combat

[bean illus]

Exotic Weapon Master has 'close quarters ranged combat'. Master Thrower has something similar, but this works better, frees up a thrown weapon trick, and is an easy entry if you are going master thrower.

The Boomerang Daze feat is wonderful. Combine it with Craven, Lady's Gambit, and/or Windup/Power Throw to deliver a robustly scaling daze. The ability to daze lock tough opponents is a serious level-up for a thrower build.

Do they have Strongheart halflings on the Talenta Plains, or is the boomerang an exotic weapon?

[Anthrowhale]

Do they have Strongheart halflings on the Talenta Plains, or is the boomerang an exotic weapon?

It's an exotic weapon. You can pick up a free EWP with a level in Targetteer or Exoticist Fighter (Dragon #310).

[Draconi Redfir]

if this is pathfinder, a few levels in knife master rogue (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo-rogue-archetypes/knife-master/) could be a benefit. d8 sneak attack damage with all daggers. i found this fit well with the unchained rogue (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained/)rather then the normal rogue myself. might need to ask your dm if that's okay or not though. Recent DM wouldn't allow a normal monk archetype on an unchained monk.

[AceDragonKing]

Complete psionic has the double weapon mindblade feats that function as the exotic weapon proficiency feat. This let's you qualify for exotic weapon master which has some interesting stunts.

4 levels give you a +1 magic weapon (as defined by DMG so technically can be enhanced normally when dumping SK levels) that can't be permanently sundered and 30 ft range increment which matches a javelin. 5th level let's you full attack with all your attacks and you get a 1d10 (2d8 enlarged) throwable 2h weapon or you can stick with the 1d6 to TWF with them. Free Draw would also let you retrain the Quickdraw feat from master thrower level 1, and Throw Mindblade let's you do the same thing with the Throw Anything feat from BsB.

A human soulknife could get all the feats necessary to qualify for master thrower and bloodstorm blade at first level. I'd suggest getting Brutal throw and power attack

5 levels of War Mind gives you a neat combo with thunderous throw. You can hit some one with a ranged attack and damage 2 adjacent squares that you threaten. This can double up with master thrower's Two With One Blow trick.

close but not quite your forgetting that you need balance 8ranks for blood storm blade. so you can’t get in until lvl 6 minimum. But those 4 lvls will allow you to make you mind blades +1 so you can do things like get throwing or magebane. put on them for when you do get in.

[bean illus]

Exotic Weapon Master has 'close quarters ranged combat'. Master Thrower has something similar, but this works better, frees up a thrown weapon trick, and is an easy entry if you are going master thrower.

The Boomerang Daze feat is wonderful. Combine it with Craven, Lady's Gambit, and/or Windup/Power Throw to deliver a robustly scaling daze. The ability to daze lock tough opponents is a serious level-up for a thrower build.

Do we have a source of Iron Will?
If we allow retraining Quickdraw, we do.

Strongheart halfling
Racial Bonus Feat: PBS

1. Swashbuckler, Weapon finesse, TWF
2. Warblade, Battle clarity, weapon aptitude
3. Exoticist Dirty Fighter, Boomerang, 1d6 SA, Hit-and-Run Tactics, Quickdraw

4. Exoticist Dirty Fighter, 1d6
5. Whisperknife, Rapid Shot, uncanny dodge
6. Master Thrower, Thrown weapon trick, Quickdraw = open, EWFocus Boomerang

7. Bloodstorm, Returning attacks, Throw anything
8. Exotic Weapon Master, Close Quarters Combat
9. Master Thrower 2, Evasion, Boomerang Daze

10. Bloodstorm, Martial throw, thunderous throw
11. Bloodstorm 3, Power Attack
12. Open level, Craven

Of course, after 5th level, multiple options are open.

[Anthrowhale]

Do we have a source of Iron Will?
There's always the Otyugh Hole.

I'd take Master Thrower to level 5 for Weak Spot to get the effectively scaling bonus to hit from making touch attacks. By level 20, it's worth about +30 to hit.

[bean illus]

There's always the Otyugh Hole.

I'd take Master Thrower to level 5 for Weak Spot to get the effectively scaling bonus to hit from making touch attacks. By level 20, it's worth about +30 to hit.

Before or after bloodstorm blade?

[Anthrowhale]

Before or after bloodstorm blade?

Basically, this is "do you prefer touch attacks (MT 5) or a full attack returning weapon (BSB 4)?" I'd probably err on the side of touch attacks. Taking that route, you are effectively forced to use mundane weapons somewhat longer, which implies you have to overcome damage resistance. But, damage resistance is just numbers---there are a number of ways to amplify damage numbers so you can penetrate damage resistance. Also, tables using the SRD will have touch attacks bypass damage resistance which takes away much of the value of magic weapons.

[Psyren]

if this is pathfinder, a few levels in knife master rogue (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo-rogue-archetypes/knife-master/) could be a benefit. d8 sneak attack damage with all daggers. i found this fit well with the unchained rogue (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained/)rather then the normal rogue myself. might need to ask your dm if that's okay or not though. Recent DM wouldn't allow a normal monk archetype on an unchained monk.

Your GM is correct - Unchained Rogue is compatible with almost all base rogue archetypes, but the same is not true for the Unchained Monk. (With that said, folks have gone out and converted almost all the older archetypes to work with it.)

[Yael]

Here is an excellent guide to knives and knife-related things: A Subtle Knife: Options for Players and DMs using the Dagger (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?596810)

I was checking on the guide, and while skimming at it, I caught Saintheart's RAW interpretation of the PBS line.

Basically, ranged feats apply even when using daggers as a melee weapon as long as the feat explicitly states that you are using a ranged weapon, not making a ranged attack, such as Point Blank Shot always granting a +1/+1 when in melee, and Rapid Shot allowing an extra attack even when in melee, as long as you're using daggers. Is this interpretation correct, or at least accepted as not OP?

Here's the Rapid Shot relevant extract to my question.

Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

Emphasis mine. I don't want to deviate attention of the thread because it's a ranged build question, but can I get a quick answer or should I go to the RAW thread?

[Darg]

I was checking on the guide, and while skimming at it, I caught Saintheart's RAW interpretation of the PBS line.

Basically, ranged feats apply even when using daggers as a melee weapon as long as the feat explicitly states that you are using a ranged weapon, not making a ranged attack, such as Point Blank Shot always granting a +1/+1 when in melee, and Rapid Shot allowing an extra attack even when in melee, as long as you're using daggers. Is this interpretation correct, or at least accepted as not OP?

Here's the Rapid Shot relevant extract to my question.


Emphasis mine. I don't want to deviate attention of the thread because it's a ranged build question, but can I get a quick answer or should I go to the RAW thread?

RAW is yes, you do benefit from rapid shot just like you would benefit from both weapon mastery feats. PBS however mentions range. Melee attacks don't have range; ranged attacks do. So PBS only applies to ranged attacks.

Feats are extremely balanced when compared to other feats and non-spell equivalent abilities. Even shocktrooper is extremely difficult to use on a regular basis unless the party and the DM sets everything up for you. I would be hard pressed to be motivated to ban any particular feat even in combination with others. Take DMM for example. The feat itself isn't what is OP, it's how it is exploited due to the lack of consistency in writing. It's obvious that turn or rebuke undead is meant to be a combined pool based on how it is written, but that doesn't stop people from wanting it to be possible to have multiple pools to increase the amount of times they can surpass the party fighter at fighting.

[holbita]

Do we have a source of Iron Will?
If we allow retraining Quickdraw, we do.

Strongheart halfling
Racial Bonus Feat: PBS

1. Swashbuckler, Weapon finesse, TWF
2. Warblade, Battle clarity, weapon aptitude
3. Exoticist Dirty Fighter, Boomerang, 1d6 SA, Hit-and-Run Tactics, Quickdraw

4. Exoticist Dirty Fighter, 1d6
5. Whisperknife, Rapid Shot, uncanny dodge
6. Master Thrower, Thrown weapon trick, Quickdraw = open, EWFocus Boomerang

7. Bloodstorm, Returning attacks, Throw anything
8. Exotic Weapon Master, Close Quarters Combat
9. Master Thrower 2, Evasion, Boomerang Daze

10. Bloodstorm, Martial throw, thunderous throw
11. Bloodstorm 3, Power Attack
12. Open level, Craven

Of course, after 5th level, multiple options are open.


One thing though, the fighter that forgoes feats for sneak attack gains sneak attack as a rogue, so no sneak attack at level 2, now the rule for multiclassing with variant classes allows you to go "Feat Fighter X/ Sneak Attack fighter X" and have all common abilities stack for levels, check with your DM first though. That opens a new world of possibilities.

Also... why the lack of love to the whisperknife? I would not exit it until I get ranged flank, I believe it gets you enough good stuff if you want to go the sneak attack thrower route.

[Anthrowhale]

I would not exit it until I get ranged flank, I believe it gets you enough good stuff if you want to go the sneak attack thrower route.
If you want to flank someone as if using a reach weapon, then it seems much easier to just use a reach weapon. For example, you could just wield a kusari-gama in your off hand at level 1. Note that flanking does not require proficiency.

[Darg]

If you want to flank someone as if using a reach weapon, then it seems much easier to just use a reach weapon. For example, you could just wield a kusari-gama in your off hand at level 1. Note that flanking does not require proficiency.

Doesn't have to be a kusari-gama, any 2h reach weapon a size smaller wielded in one hand would do it to.

[bean illus]

Also... why the lack of love to the whisperknife? I would not exit it until I get ranged flank, I believe it gets you enough good stuff if you want to go the sneak attack thrower route.

don't really know the thrower classes, i was just fiddling with the comments in the thread. In fact, i seem to not have precise shot in the build.

But i wonder about this?


One thing though, the fighter that forgoes feats for sneak attack gains sneak attack as a rogue, so no sneak attack at level 2, now the rule for multiclassing with variant classes allows you to go "Feat Fighter X/ Sneak Attack fighter X" and have all common abilities stack for levels, check with your DM first though. That opens a new world of possibilities.

Are you saying that one can by RAW take something like:

1. Fighter 1, Power attack
2. Fighter Thug 1, 1d6 SA
3. Fighter 2, Improved initiative, Combat reflexes

4. Fighter Thug 2
5. Fighter Thug 3, 2d6 SA
6. Fighter 3, Weapon Specialization

If that's true, can someone cite source?

[holbita]

don't really know the thrower classes, i was just fiddling with the comments in the thread. In fact, i seem to not have precise shot in the build.

But i wonder about this?


Are you saying that one can by RAW take something like:

1. Fighter 1, Power attack
2. Fighter Thug 1, 1d6 SA
3. Fighter 2, Improved initiative, Combat reflexes

4. Fighter Thug 2
5. Fighter Thug 3, 2d6 SA
6. Fighter 3, Weapon Specialization

If that's true, can someone cite source?

You should even be able to do this:

Fighter (Thug): Sneak Attack 1d6
Fighter (Thug): -
Fighter (Thug): Sneak Attack 2d6
Fighter: Bonus Feat* (Weapon Specialization)

As this would count as having 4 levels of fighter. Check page 48 of unearthed arcana, there you have the sidebar for Multiclassing and Variant Classes. Basically if it really changes the class to something else it is okay to multiclass into them and common class abilities stack, if the variant is not different enough then you cannot stack them. The example they give you is monk with different fighting styles is not enough for them to be counted as different classes, but bard and bardic sage should be different enough for you to take levels in both.

Edit:
In fact, I don't see a problem with a Fighter 4/Thug 5 taking the 3 levels of Zhentarim as a Fighter 9, but that one is even more of a check with DM thing. As the rule is you just need to check if your DM considers Thug and Fighter different enough, and well... I doubt you will find a DM that says they aren´t.

[liquidformat]

One thing though, the fighter that forgoes feats for sneak attack gains sneak attack as a rogue, so no sneak attack at level 2, now the rule for multiclassing with variant classes allows you to go "Feat Fighter X/ Sneak Attack fighter X" and have all common abilities stack for levels, check with your DM first though. That opens a new world of possibilities.

No the rules specifically do not let you do that. Variant Character Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) from UA where variants first came from suggested baring variants that are very similar while leaving the door open to the ones that dramatically change the class. The big issue being what is very similar vs what is dramatically different. In their example the totem barbarians and specialist wizards were highlighted as being too similar but urban ranger and normal ranger were highlighted as being different enough. And yet the variant barbs and specialist wizards are probably more dissimilar than urban vs standard ranger making the examples erroneous and not particularly useful.
I believe later splat books put a full stop on having multiple versions of the same class though AFB so will have to look later for the specific reference.

[bean illus]

No the rules specifically do not let you do that. Variant Character Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) from UA where variants first came from suggested baring variants that are very similar while leaving the door open to the ones that dramatically change the class. The big issue being what is very similar vs what is dramatically different. In their example the totem barbarians and specialist wizards were highlighted as being too similar but urban ranger and normal ranger were highlighted as being different enough. And yet the variant barbs and specialist wizards are probably more dissimilar than urban vs standard ranger making the examples erroneous and not particularly useful.
I believe later splat books put a full stop on having multiple versions of the same class though AFB so will have to look later for the specific reference.

I'd like to see the reference, if you find it. I believe most tables play as you say. But like ACF chaining, i can't imagine it's that bad. What's the worse cheese?

This wouldn't break a game that's not already bonkers. It would make some interesting melee builds available that might overpower a table that wasn't also optimizing similarly.

Here's an example of what one folk found: (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?443076-Variant-Class-Feature-Chaining).



Variant Class Feature Chaining

Loses: Rage, Greater Rage, Indomitable will, Tireless Rage, Mighty Rage and Armor & Shield proficiencies

Gains: 1 Normal Favored Enemy (Ranger), Favored Enemy against ANY Arcane Magic user, Swift Tracker (Ranger), Track (Ranger), Wisdom to AC (Monk), a Spirit Totem (Lion, of course), and a Totem Manifestation.

Obviously, a really good optimizer could use this a number of ways. Even i know how to get stalker of kharash before swift hunter, tack on a ranger and trade swift tracker for urban tracker, and shooting star 8.

When your done though, it's just a Ranger, or whatever.

[bean illus]

Here's me admitting that someone else can make better builds.


Flaw Darkstalker
Flaw Wild Cohort

Barb FE Arcane, FE 2 (+4 arc), Pounce, Wis to AC, Urban Tracking, Power Attack
Scout
F Th +1d6, FotC

Exoticist EWP Bastard, Kaorti, Oversized TWF
S
S (+1d6 +1 AC), Imp FE

S 4 Alertness
SoK
9 SoK FE evil, Swift Hunter

R 1 FE 3 (+4 evil +4 arc), (+2 +1)
R TWF
R 3 (+2 +2), Nemisis evil

R Solitary Hunter
R 5 (+2d6 +2 AC)
15 R 6 ITWF, FE 4 (+6 evil +4 arc), Wise to Your Ways
R (+3d6 +2 AC)
R Shooting star
R 9 (+3d6 +3 AC), Evasion, Craven

R 10 CL 12
R 11 GTWF, (+4d6 +3 AC), FE 5 (+8 evil +4 arc)

With Imp FE 6 (+11 evil +7 arc, att, dam, saves) +18
BAB +19, CL 13

... it's still just a swift hunter. Pretty cool though.

[RNightstalker]

James Coburn from Magnificent Seven, by any chance?

One of my favourite movies when I was younger.

Right year, wrong James: James Caan from El Dorado.

[Mordante]

Lots and lots of Fleshgrinding throwing daggers with some additional enchantments.

[RNightstalker]

Lots and lots of Fleshgrinding throwing daggers with some additional enchantments.

That can get expensive.


Here is an excellent guide to knives and knife-related things: A Subtle Knife: Options for Players and DMs using the Dagger (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?596810)

Definitely can use some of the dagger carrying items if the DM no-go's the gloves of endless daggers. What I have in mind isn't too far off the builds shared in that list also: simply a Warblade5/MasterThrower5/BloodstormBlade10.