Why no Cloister now?

[SlashDash]

The author of this strip has a tendency of spreading out his little Chekov guns and hide their meaning until the moment arrives for them to fire.

I've been thinking that we have seen several sendings in this book which should clearly be an indication that Xykon did not put up the Cloister spell that prevented the party from reaching Haley and Belkar in Don't Split the Party.

Now the reason why from an in-character perspective is easy to explain, Redcloak wants Jirix to have an open channel which could be important if anything happens to the rift in Gobtoppia.

But what about an off-play reason?
In other words, is this a slight hint that perhaps we should ponder if anyone is going to be sending a message from the outside or possibly a non-epic character would teleport and join in at some point?

I'm betting on either Hinjo (prophecy) or Miron (That cliffhanger in the desert can't possibly be something the party doesn't find out about)

Any other guess who might show up?

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Ooh! I think I know this one!

Xykon probably doesn't care about letting Redcloak talk to anyone. I think he's just saving his good spell slots for the dungeons. Narratively, we already needed O-Chul and Lien to use and receive sending spells to get information to the OOTS and to Hinjo.

[Xihirli]

Does Cloister use a spell slot when he casts it from his headband?

[Fyraltari]

Maybe Lien and O-Chul's ledge was out of range?
Also maybe the effects of the last time Xykon cast it havent worn off yet and since the people targeted are still affected even outside of the area, he hasn't bothered recasting it.

[Metastachydium]

Does Cloister use a spell slot when he casts it from his headband?

It would seem that he doesn't cast it from the headband; it's merely a focus needed to cast the spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html). (That said, whenever it is cast, Dorukan's yellow casting aura is seen, so Xykon's initial assessment might be wrong.)

[Psyren]

Does Cloister use a spell slot when he casts it from his headband?

Epic slots work differently. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm)

[Nymrod]

Xykon likely has only two epic spell slots (maybe three). It is very possible he starts his day with Epic Mage Armor which means a spell slot down. So if he uses Cloister then he possibly won't be able to use Superb Dispelling that day.

Also it is very much possible that Cloister has other costs than spell slots. Given the large area of the effect and that there is no noticeable backlash damage or need for ritual casting (other casters contributing spell slots) it most likely costs XP every time it is cast (and/or has a longer casting time, probably the full 11 minutes).

[Nymrod]

It would seem that he doesn't cast it from the headband; it's merely a focus needed to cast the spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html). (That said, whenever it is cast, Dorukan's yellow casting aura is seen, so Xykon's initial assessment might be wrong.)

Given the nature of the spell, if I had to model it in 3.5 terms it would be a mythal that uses that headband as a capstone (since a focus or spell components are not part of epic spells outside the Mythal seed).

Honestly I think 2e's True Dwemers were by far superior as a system to build epic spells with, especially if you want to build spells that also fit a narrative.

[Fyraltari]

Honestly I think 2e's True Dwemers were by far superior

They might have erased themselves from reality, but these guys had fully-functionning automatons when nobody else had even figured iron out, they built a god and they took exactly zero **** from anybody (D)Aedra included.

Gotta respect that.
This is an Elder Scrolls joke.

[crayzz]

Xykon likely has only two epic spell slots (maybe three). It is very possible he starts his day with Epic Mage Armor which means a spell slot down. So if he uses Cloister then he possibly won't be able to use Superb Dispelling that day.

Also it is very much possible that Cloister has other costs than spell slots. Given the large area of the effect and that there is no noticeable backlash damage or need for ritual casting (other casters contributing spell slots) it most likely costs XP every time it is cast (and/or has a longer casting time, probably the full 11 minutes).

A single casting of Cloister lasts at minimum 21 weeks (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), so I don't think spell slot preservation or casting time would be realistic impediments here, although maybe Xykon was feeling extremely impatient and didn't want to miss even a single day of searching. XP costs likely wouldn't be an issue either, given the constant dungeon delving they're doing.

[RatElemental]

Well they're at the north pole and not a major, central, well known (former) human capital city. It's also the last gate. He might just not see the point of keeping people from figuring out which gate he's at since there's only the one left. The bugbears might have asked him not to too for some reason and he was in a good mood from gaining exp so he agreed.

[SlashDash]

Guys you are missing the point...

I'm not asking here why Xykon wouldn't cast the spell. I gave a reason myself.

I'm asking for a potential off-play reason why the author wouldn't want him to do it.
Those are two different things entirely.

[TooSoon]

Xykon likely has only two epic spell slots (maybe three). It is very possible he starts his day with Epic Mage Armor which means a spell slot down. So if he uses Cloister then he possibly won't be able to use Superb Dispelling that day.

Also it is very much possible that Cloister has other costs than spell slots. Given the large area of the effect and that there is no noticeable backlash damage or need for ritual casting (other casters contributing spell slots) it most likely costs XP every time it is cast (and/or has a longer casting time, probably the full 11 minutes).

We've seen Xykon cast Cloister, and it did not take 11 minutes. It seemed to be instant. While we can sometimes infer stuff happened off panel, that should never be the starting approach to things that appear to happen in real time (and in this instance it just seems wrong).

Like others, given the likely duration (at least 21 weeks, likely over 27) it seems like a poor excuse for not casting it.

[Werbaer]

But what about an off-play reason?
In other words, is this a slight hint that perhaps we should ponder if anyone is going to be sending a message from the outside or possibly a non-epic character would teleport and join in at some point?
Cloister would have prevented communication with O'Chul and Lien.

[Squire Doodad]

One thing that comes to mind is that Redcloak told Jirix they could Send to him for help.
We haven't seen it on-screen, but Redcloak may well be chatting with Jirix every week for status updates.

The Dolyesian explanation is undoubtedly that Lien and O-Chul needed to communicate with the Order, but in-universe I'm guessing Redcloak was the one who convinced Xykon not to burn a slot on it so he could maintain "intelligence on any potential invading armies" or something.

[Emanick]

Guys you are missing the point...

I'm not asking here why Xykon wouldn't cast the spell. I gave a reason myself.

I'm asking for a potential off-play reason why the author wouldn't want him to do it.
Those are two different things entirely.

I think this is sort of backwards. What narrative reason would Rich have to show Xykon re-casting Cloister? It's already served its story purpose; there's no reason to have him cast it again. (I suppose this could always change, of course.)

[Squire Doodad]

I think this is sort of backwards. What narrative reason would Rich have to show Xykon re-casting Cloister? It's already served its story purpose; there's no reason to have him cast it again. (I suppose this could always change, of course.)

Not to mention Team Evil was being rather lax until Durkon came in, and they're in the middle of the North Pole. Not exactly a place most people will want to go to.

[brian 333]

The in-game reason is very likely that Xykon saw no reason to cast the spell because, besides himself and a handful of people who he would like to kill, nobody even suspects there is anything of interest at the pole.

The out of character reason may involve many of the same reasons given in previous posts, but I also suspect something I've been waiting for is soon to occur.

We know about the IFCCs vessel and are awaiting its appearance, but what about the factions mentioned by the demon roaches?

I suspect that the other factions will begin to put a foot in the door in the relatively near future, and Cloister might make that problematic.

[Squire Doodad]

We know about the IFCCs vessel and are awaiting its appearance, but what about the factions mentioned by the demon roaches?

I suspect that the other factions will begin to put a foot in the door in the relatively near future, and Cloister might make that problematic.

If you do a bit of splintering, there's plenty of factions, and more to the point, Rich's reply to a comment about the "9 factions" is that the roaches lied.

"Team Evil, Paladins, Order, IFFC, Serini" is five as is, and at the time there were even more players left in the game like the Linear Guild and the like. Not to mention you could categorize "O-Chul/Lien/MitD" as being separate from the Paladins as a whole, Redcloak vs Xykon, etc etc. One way or another, it isn't particularly relevant.

[brian 333]

If you do a bit of splintering, there's plenty of factions, and more to the point, Rich's reply to a comment about the "9 factions" is that the roaches lied.

"Team Evil, Paladins, Order, IFFC, Serini" is five as is, and at the time there were even more players left in the game like the Linear Guild and the like. Not to mention you could categorize "O-Chul/Lien/MitD" as being separate from the Paladins as a whole, Redcloak vs Xykon, etc etc. One way or another, it isn't particularly relevant.

The numbers and composition of other factions is not so relevant to my point as the fact that some, (at least one,) are not currently present, and a Cloister might inconvenience them.

[Squire Doodad]

The numbers and composition of other factions is not so relevant to my point as the fact that some, (at least one,) are not currently present, and a Cloister might inconvenience them.

Even more relevant to your point is that the roach-claimed faction count is irrelevant :smalltongue:

(More seriously, I'm not sure if IFFC's arrival would be stopped or not, but having Cloister up when they act would probably raise more questions about the mechanics of it, and that'd get messy)

[InvisibleBison]

I'm betting on either Hinjo (prophecy)

Prophecy? What prophecy?

[Fyraltari]

Prophecy? What prophecy?

There's a bonus strip where Sangwaan (the blin Azurite seer) tells Hinjo that Belkar will save his life twice.

He's done it once already (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html). So, unless you count th (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html)is (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html) (which you shouldn't), Hinjo is due to get back to the plot before the Belkster bites it.

Which wouldn't surprise me. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html)

[Precure]

Are we sure there is no prophecy?

[Precure]

Oops! I mean Cloister!

[Emanick]

Even more relevant to your point is that the roach-claimed faction count is irrelevant :smalltongue:

(More seriously, I'm not sure if IFFC's arrival would be stopped or not, but having Cloister up when they act would probably raise more questions about the mechanics of it, and that'd get messy)

Eh, Celestia can bypass Cloister, so it would make sense if the IFCC could, too.

[RatElemental]

Eh, Celestia can bypass Cloister, so it would make sense if the IFCC could, too.

Summoning spells have a specific exception built into it for them. Teleportation spells do not, but epic magic can overcome that as we saw with Darth V.

[Metastachydium]

Are we sure there is no prophecy?

There is no prophecy, citizen.


Summoning spells have a specific exception built into it for them. Teleportation spells do not, but epic magic can overcome that as we saw with Darth V.

Ghost!Roy wasn't summoned into the cloistered area though. He just kind of fell in.

[Fyraltari]

Ghost!Roy wasn't summoned into the cloistered area though. He just kind of fell in.

But Celia was. As was Lirian (which was the reason for the loophole in the spell).

[Metastachydium]

But Celia was. As was Lirian (which was the reason for the loophole in the spell).

Yes, I know about that loophole. My point is, rather, that we have seen a cloistered area accessed from the outer planes without resorting to epic magic or exploiting that loophole.

[littlebum2002]

There's a bonus strip where Sangwaan (the blin Azurite seer) tells Hinjo that Belkar will save his life twice.

He's done it once already (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html). So, unless you count th (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html)is (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html) (which you shouldn't), Hinjo is due to get back to the plot before the Belkster bites it.

Which wouldn't surprise me. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html)

Ugh good luck with this one. I have been on the "Belkar needs to save Hinjo's life again" train for years and most people on here argue with me and say that #455 is the second time.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, I know about that loophole. My point is, rather, that we have seen a cloistered area accessed from the outer planes without resorting to epic magic or exploiting that loophole.

Roy's ghost going to Azure City happened one of two possible ways: either it was like physical movement, in which case we know Cloister does nothing or it was like teleportation, in which case, the epic magic in the clouds (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html) could have helped.

[Metastachydium]

Roy's ghost going to Azure City happened one of two possible ways: either it was like physical movement, in which case we know Cloister does nothing or it was like teleportation, in which case, the epic magic in the clouds (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html) could have helped.

I absolutely forgot it's explicitly epic stuff, so thanks for pointing that out!
That said, I don't think it's physical movement or teleportation (since Azure City and the clouds are on different planes), and if the Outer Planes amplify magic to such an extent that they enable epic planar travelling, the point that the IFCC should have no trouble breaching a cloistered area if they get to use the resources at their disposal still stands.

[Fyraltari]

I absolutely forgot it's explicitly epic stuff, so thanks for pointing that out!
That said, I don't think it's physical movement or teleportation (since Azure City and the clouds are on different planes), and if the Outer Planes amplify magic to such an extent that they enable epic planar travelling, the point that the IFCC should have no trouble breaching a cloistered area if they get to use the resources at their disposal still stands.

Oh definitely. I mean they're the guys who loaned Ganonron to Vaarsuvius, in the first place. Xykon or Dorukan have nothing on them.

[danielxcutter]

Even aspects of archfiends tend to be in the CR 20s(the demon lords in FCII are the real deal, but I agree with the Savage Tide adventure path in that they should be considered aspects as well), and they typically have enough power, resources, and favors to cash in that the most common use of them in a game is “plot device”.

[RatElemental]

they typically have enough power, resources, and favors to cash in that the most common use of them in a game is “plot device”.

Cthulhu essentially having "You're all dead" as its statblock in CoC comes to mind in comparison.

[Riftwolf]

They might have erased themselves from reality, but these guys had fully-functionning automatons when nobody else had even figured iron out, they built a god and they took exactly zero **** from anybody (D)Aedra included.

Gotta respect that.
This is an Elder Scrolls joke.

I got it! I got the joke!
My pet theory is the Dwemer accidentally found out they were in a computer game and got erased by the developers to avoid meta-humour. Hermaeus-Mora is the manifestation of the coders in the universe which is why his realm is full of poorly kept illegible books.

[Fyraltari]

I got it! I got the joke!
My pet theory is the Dwemer accidentally found out they were in a computer game and got erased by the developers to avoid meta-humour.

That's less a pet theory and more a reworking of the most common interpretation of Zero-Summing.

[Riftwolf]

That's less a pet theory and more a reworking of the most common interpretation of Zero-Summing.

I've not heard of zero summing and CHIM in Elder Scrolls till now. Some of the lore got a bit esoteric and contradictory for me.

[Fyraltari]

Some of the lore got a bit esoteric and contradictory

Indeed. Or maybe not? *Checks whether the Dragon is Broken again*

[Riftwolf]

Indeed. Or maybe not? *Checks whether the Dragon is Broken again*

Which of Daggerfalls endings happened in canon? ALL OF THEM

Also did Vivec survive the events of Morrowind? APPARENTLY NOBODY CHECKED

[Fyraltari]

Also did Vivec survive the events of Morrowind? APPARENTLY NOBODY CHECKED

Well, his immortality's gone, so in a sense, no he didn't.

[Riftwolf]

Well, his immortality's gone, so in a sense, no he didn't.

He definitely was never seen again after the Red Year, and his city got wrecked, but for the few years between the end of Morrowind and the Red Year (5-6 years later), he was Schrödinger's False God.

It'll be interesting if they ever make TES6 to see how the civil war subplot in Skyrim panned out. And the Dark Brotherhood's. Every other faction is pretty inconsequential from a worldwide view.

[danielxcutter]

Cthulhu essentially having "You're all dead" as its statblock in CoC comes to mind in comparison.

Archfiends do tend to be slightly less "rocks fall everyone dies".

I do suppose D&D statblocks are printed with the assumption that at least some games will have them be fought or killed. Wish Elder Evils upped the CR of the titular monsters a bit though.

[Emanick]

Archfiends do tend to be slightly less "rocks fall everyone dies".

I do suppose D&D statblocks are printed with the assumption that at least some games will have them be fought or killed. Wish Elder Evils upped the CR of the titular monsters a bit though.

For what it's worth, my 5e D&D party fought and killed an archfiend earlier this year. We were level 20, but still. It's quite doable, at least in 5th edition.

We also had a Very Special Episode where we all played a bunch of liches with staves that let us cast meteor swarm, weird, true polymorph or (in my case) wish and defeated all the archfiends (the CE ones, anyway). That was a bit silly, though, and probably shouldn't count.

[Metastachydium]

For what it's worth, my 5e D&D party fought and killed an archfiend earlier this year. We were level 20, but still. It's quite doable, at least in 5th edition.

We also had a Very Special Episode where we all played a bunch of liches with staves that let us cast meteor swarm, weird, true polymorph or (in my case) wish and defeated all the archfiends (the CE ones, anyway). That was a bit silly, though, and probably shouldn't count.

Eh, so far as I can tell, 5e has nerfed a whole lot of supposedly powerful things into oblivion. 3e Tiamat has standard 3e divine stuff plus a ridiculous amount of powerful SLAs plus 20th level cleric and sorcerer casting in addition to an SR above 40, an AC above 60 and a metric ton of natural attacks. Meanwhile, if I remember correctly, 5e Tiamat is… Kind of big and has some breath weapons? I've seen people argue that a lucky level 14 party can beat her in a straight fight.

[danielxcutter]

You sure that’s actually Tiamat herself? And not an aspect or avatar or something? Those tend to be much weaker than the true being.

[Psyren]

You sure that’s actually Tiamat herself? And not an aspect or avatar or something? Those tend to be much weaker than the true being.

For whatever ridiculous reason the module author confirmed on Twitter that that was "the real deal." I'll never understand WotC's obsession with repeatedly trying and failing to stat their actual deities.

[RatElemental]

For whatever ridiculous reason the module author confirmed on Twitter that that was "the real deal." I'll never understand WotC's obsession with repeatedly trying and failing to stat their actual deities.

Kinda hard to fight gods if they don't have stats, at least in 3.5e you had to be epic yourself to have a chance against most of them. And thanks to SDAs you probably didn't have much of one against them even then.

[Psyren]

Kinda hard to fight gods if they don't have stats, at least in 3.5e you had to be epic yourself to have a chance against most of them. And thanks to SDAs you probably didn't have much of one against them even then.

Yeah I get that, but WotC's deity stats are pretty much always underwhelming and end up undermining the deity in question and/or making them look like they don't know what they're doing. (Well, even moreso.)

Statting avatars and aspects I'm 100% down with, and then beating the avatar/aspect causes {magic plot thing} to happen that makes it possible to remove the deity from power or seal it away etc. An avatar can be as beatable as the plot needs it to be. But statting the actual deity almost always just leads to the question of how they were in charge as long as they were with such unoptimized builds.

[danielxcutter]

For what it’s worth, a lot of non-divine beings tend to be both just as unoptimized and also have considerably worse stats, so there’s that.