Anyone playing Shadowrun 6e? Suggestions?

[CapnWildefyr]

I used to love Shadowrun 2e -- except everything took an eternity to resolve. OK the scatter rules were wonky, if you ran a decker, the rest of the party could watch a movie by the time the Matrix run finished, etc, but you could work around that. Blowing things up was just... real wiz.

I'm, thinking about trying 6e Shadowrun, trying to get my group to give it a shot. I got a peek at the rules, it looks like it should run a lot faster (a lot fewer die roll, or at least no "rolling out" 6's). Anyone have any experience with it?

[Telwar]

I ran the beginner box for my group as a one-shot.

It's okay, just adding the Edge award step is an additional interaction, that I'm not sure is worth the time, especially since you still have to do attack and defense rolls.

[CapnWildefyr]

I ran the beginner box for my group as a one-shot.

It's okay, just adding the Edge award step is an additional interaction, that I'm not sure is worth the time, especially since you still have to do attack and defense rolls.

Thanks. Is combat resolution fast, or reasonable at least?

[Telwar]

Thanks. Is combat resolution fast, or reasonable at least?

It didn't take terribly long, but it runs like:

Attacker declares action
(pause for Edge declaration)
Attacker rolls dice (Attack pool)
(pause for Edge declaration)
Defender rolls dice (defense pool)
(pause for Edge declaration)
Compare hits
If Attacker < Defender, attack misses and you move on with your lives.
if Attacker > Defender, attack hits, Defender rolls soak against damage and applies to condition track.
(pause for Edge declaration)

Now, IN PRACTICE, people aren't going to have that much Edge to use, but they can use it if they have it at any appropriate point.

4e (and I presume 5e) combat worked similarly, without the pauses for Edge income and use. On the other hand, theoretically players trying to use Edge will add to descriptions and help enhance the flavor of encounters. So it might work out.

Also, because some Edge spending can reroll individual dice in a pool, you'll need to roll dice out in the open, so the parties can see which dice to reroll etc.

[LibraryOgre]

I've played every edition between 1st and 4th, but lost track after that. I wound up making a Savage Worlds conversion, in case I get the chance to play again.

[CapnWildefyr]

It didn't take terribly long, but it runs like:

Attacker declares action
(pause for Edge declaration)
Attacker rolls dice (Attack pool)
(pause for Edge declaration)
Defender rolls dice (defense pool)
(pause for Edge declaration)
Compare hits
If Attacker < Defender, attack misses and you move on with your lives.
if Attacker > Defender, attack hits, Defender rolls soak against damage and applies to condition track.
(pause for Edge declaration)

Now, IN PRACTICE, people aren't going to have that much Edge to use, but they can use it if they have it at any appropriate point.

4e (and I presume 5e) combat worked similarly, without the pauses for Edge income and use. On the other hand, theoretically players trying to use Edge will add to descriptions and help enhance the flavor of encounters. So it might work out.

Also, because some Edge spending can reroll individual dice in a pool, you'll need to roll dice out in the open, so the parties can see which dice to reroll etc.

That still sounds better than 2e, which was:
Attacker declares action, rolls dice. Looks for 6's and rerolls. Again. Again. ("No, I want to roll them out, I don't care if I only needed an 8.")
Defender rolls. Rolls-out 6's. Again and again.

Then you had karma, which sounds sorta like edge in this case, where you could add extra dice or buy successes, reroll failures etc, and team karma...

Seems like this removes 2-5 minutes per set of rolls?

[olskool]

That still sounds better than 2e, which was:
Attacker declares action, rolls dice. Looks for 6's and rerolls. Again. Again. ("No, I want to roll them out, I don't care if I only needed an 8.")
Defender rolls. Rolls-out 6's. Again and again.

Then you had karma, which sounds sorta like edge in this case, where you could add extra dice or buy successes, reroll failures etc, and team karma...

Seems like this removes 2-5 minutes per set of rolls?

If you still want to play SHADOWRUN 2e but without all the "dice bloat," try this homebrew out.

Instead of rolling D6 for successes, roll D10s. The Target Numbers for a SUCCESS are now set from 2 to 10. We allow any roll of 10 to "explode" and generate another D10 to roll for more successes UNLESS the Target number IS a 10 (then there's no "explosion"). This allows unskilled or low-skilled players to generate a greater number of Success with good rolls. A roll of all 1's is a Catastrophic Failure. This will be uncommon with skills above 1 or 2 as rolling 3 or more 1's on a bunch of D10s becomes statistically unlikely.

THE SUCCESS THRESHOLD:

We also use a set number of Successes needed to accomplish a task. This comes straight from the Decking rules. Our Success [needed] Thresholds are...

GREEN: 1 Success needed
YELLOW: 2 Successes needed
ORANGE: 3 Successes needed
RED: 4 Successes needed
BLACK: 5 Successes needed

When this is combined with a Target Number you get a quick shorthand method for both the TN and the number of Successes needed. For example: "To pick this lock is a Red-5 task." This tells you that you must roll a TN of 5 or more and score 4 successes to open that lock.

For the group's Deckers, we allow one operation per combat round. So the Decker could "log onto" the Matrix on round one (requiring a check against whatever the system's security rating is). In the next round, they could roll to search the database for the info they are searching for. They could then try to move to that node of the system (requiring a decking test) in the third round. Fights with ICE or Deckers would also go round for round to prevent a "Pizza Gate" event.

This system greatly sped up our 2e games.

[Telwar]

That still sounds better than 2e, which was:
Attacker declares action, rolls dice. Looks for 6's and rerolls. Again. Again. ("No, I want to roll them out, I don't care if I only needed an 8.")
Defender rolls. Rolls-out 6's. Again and again.

Then you had karma, which sounds sorta like edge in this case, where you could add extra dice or buy successes, reroll failures etc, and team karma...

Seems like this removes 2-5 minutes per set of rolls?

Honestly don't remember. :/

I do remember having to hit a TN of like 23. I don't miss that in the slightest. Single best thing 4e did was fix the TN and adjust difficulty based on # of dice rather than # and TN.

I would suggest trying the Beginner Box to see how it rolls for your group. My main complaint about the adventure is some pertinent details are kind of buried in the text...like that their van is outside; I had winged it as the rigger peeled off after the rest of the group went into the Stuffer Shack.

[Anonymouswizard]

There's also the option of Anarchy, which is a less crunchy version that came out during 5e. It has some issues, including having no static difficulties as written and two metacurrencies (Edge and Plot Points), but it also simplifies using the astral plane/Matrix.

As a side note 4e and later made rolling faster by moving from variable target numbers to requiring multiple successes. You just count dice showing 5s or 6s and compared to the difficulty number. 6s explode if you spend Edge before rolling them, but otherwise it's just roll and count.

[Corsair14]

When I have asked this in the past in here and in other places, the general consensus(that means most but not everyone for the one or two people who love 5th or 6th) think 3rd and 4th are the sweet spots for SR when it comes to crunching the dice and pools for dodge, + a pool for ducking, + a pool for side step(which is different than dodging but shares synergy) etc.

Personally I think all the systems are too complicated and prefer Cyberpunk Red for my game. Much easier to run.

[CapnWildefyr]

When I have asked this in the past in here and in other places, the general consensus(that means most but not everyone for the one or two people who love 5th or 6th) think 3rd and 4th are the sweet spots for SR when it comes to crunching the dice and pools for dodge, + a pool for ducking, + a pool for side step(which is different than dodging but shares synergy) etc.

Personally I think all the systems are too complicated and prefer Cyberpunk Red for my game. Much easier to run.
I'll see if I can check it out, thanks!

[Ignimortis]

6e is a garbage fire, pure and simple. It made simplifications in all the wrong places, while refusing to fix actual problems with resolution mechanics and the system itself.

For example, they removed Armor from the soak calculation — then left the soak roll in the game, and even introduced Edge mechanics that further increase the time to resolve a single combat roll.

Combat monsters no longer get to geek people left and right, because they get at best 2 actions and damage is so low, your only choice is either using an Edge action (which you need to save up for, for several turns), or getting very lucky with your shot (a typical ganger NPC has 10 HP and 3-4 soak dice, a typical AR deals 6 damage with 1 net hit, so you have to deal 11-12 damage to put someone in the ground, and that, in turn, means having to either attack them two times (in freaking Shadowrun, to geek a freaking ganger with an AR!) or get over 5 net hits, which would take, statistically, +15 dice over their dodge.

Magicrun is still in full force, spirits are even less vulnerable to non-magic damage, and mages get even better buffs and debuffs (combat spells got scuffed again). A Force 6 spirit is now basically invulnerable to most weapons, unlike, say, in 5e, where you could still punch through with most things that aren't light pistols.

Riggers got...forgotten about, I'd say. There are basically three to five pages of rules for driving and rigging, the Control Rig costs a ton but sucks just as much...

Generally, despite how much issues I can dredge up for 4e or 5e, I would still recommend playing either of them over 6e. CGL does not deserve your money, though.

[Yunru]

Don't forget their rules for driving, sparse as they are, are also hot garbage.

You crash if you fail a check. Noticing you are being pursued is a check.

You know you're successfully tailing your target when they spontaneously crash while driving in a straight line.

Unless you really want the magic aspect, I'd recommend Cyberpunk instead.

[Anonymouswizard]

To be fair, Shadowrun could probably have done with toning down the number of actions fast characters get. I like that in Anarchy reaction boosters can only give you a single extra action (plus two plot points of you get the other levels, why weren't they combined with Edge?). But yeah, from everything I've seen and heard 6e is just a massive mess, it's would be much better to play Anarchy or Cyberpunk (2020 or Red, they're both better).

[Ignimortis]

To be fair, Shadowrun could probably have done with toning down the number of actions fast characters get. I like that in Anarchy reaction boosters can only give you a single extra action (plus two plot points of you get the other levels, why weren't they combined with Edge?). But yeah, from everything I've seen and heard 6e is just a massive mess, it's would be much better to play Anarchy or Cyberpunk (2020 or Red, they're both better).

Multiple actions for combat characters in superhuman-but-somewhat-lethal games are one of those hills I'm willing to die on. Nothing really makes you feel just as powerful at combat as deleting several enemies outright, every turn.

After playing a Brujah in VtM and a street samurai in SR4/5, I'm pretty unwilling to go back to systems that either assume that every single character is a combat character (and combat therefore isn't balanced for one character being three times better in combat than others), or that combat characters are only better at combat because they hit a bit harder and with more precision.

CP2020/Red have their own issues, including being too lethal for PCs (IMO) and class-based — what's that, you're not a netrunner? Well, you can't hack now!

[LibraryOgre]

I like I said, I have a Savage Worlds version (https://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/2020/06/the-savage-shadows-savage.html) if you want the world but not the rules.

I've since amended the Decking rules, but that's for a product I'm wanting to sell, so...

[Anonymouswizard]

Multiple actions for combat characters in superhuman-but-somewhat-lethal games are one of those hills I'm willing to die on. Nothing really makes you feel just as powerful at combat as deleting several enemies outright, every turn.

After playing a Brujah in VtM and a street samurai in SR4/5, I'm pretty unwilling to go back to systems that either assume that every single character is a combat character (and combat therefore isn't balanced for one character being three times better in combat than others), or that combat characters are only better at combat because they hit a bit harder and with more precision.

Multiple actions are great for representing speed, but also terrible. The issue is that everybody who's not playing a combat character is already barely o participating, if at all, but now they have to wait longer until they can do anything.

Of course, the other solution is to keep PC speed in a relatively narrow band, which is what I try to do, or keep combat short.


CP2020/Red have their own issues, including being too lethal for PCs (IMO) and class-based — what's that, you're not a netrunner? Well, you can't hack now!

I'm not saying they're faultless. Netrunners are even worse than Deckers for locking other players out of the game. I just think it generally has less issues than Shadowrun 6e.

[Delta]

Generally, despite how much issues I can dredge up for 4e or 5e, I would still recommend playing either of them over 6e. CGL does not deserve your money, though.

This, very much so.

No, 4e and 5e aren't great systems by any measure. No, 6e isn't "unplayable". But honestly, it's just such a mess from a design standpoint, I'm hard pressed to name a single reason for running it over the other two. Like, seriously, I'm that one guy who always jumps on the new edition bandwagon, but Shadowrun has really lost me with the utter and complete dumpster fire that is 6e. Also, what he says, CGL does not deserve your money.

[CapnWildefyr]

I like I said, I have a Savage Worlds version (https://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/2020/06/the-savage-shadows-savage.html) if you want the world but not the rules.

I've since amended the Decking rules, but that's for a product I'm wanting to sell, so...

Well, based on initial comments, and perusing 6e online, I went and bought it... still checking it out.


Don't forget their rules for driving, sparse as they are, are also hot garbage.

You crash if you fail a check. Noticing you are being pursued is a check.

You know you're successfully tailing your target when they spontaneously crash while driving in a straight line.

Unless you really want the magic aspect, I'd recommend Cyberpunk instead.

Well, not quite. Trying to not be spotted while tailing someone is a check, not necessarily the other way around. Normal driving is not a check. Their other examples are like jumping a half-open bridge, or doing a 180 on the freeway during rush hour. Besides -- IME the rigger's not the only one in the vehicle.


6e is a garbage fire, pure and simple. It made simplifications in all the wrong places, while refusing to fix actual problems with resolution mechanics and the system itself.

For example, they removed Armor from the soak calculation — then left the soak roll in the game, and even introduced Edge mechanics that further increase the time to resolve a single combat roll.

Combat monsters no longer get to geek people left and right, because they get at best 2 actions and damage is so low, your only choice is either using an Edge action (which you need to save up for, for several turns), or getting very lucky with your shot (a typical ganger NPC has 10 HP and 3-4 soak dice, a typical AR deals 6 damage with 1 net hit, so you have to deal 11-12 damage to put someone in the ground, and that, in turn, means having to either attack them two times (in freaking Shadowrun, to geek a freaking ganger with an AR!) or get over 5 net hits, which would take, statistically, +15 dice over their dodge.

Magicrun is still in full force, spirits are even less vulnerable to non-magic damage, and mages get even better buffs and debuffs (combat spells got scuffed again). A Force 6 spirit is now basically invulnerable to most weapons, unlike, say, in 5e, where you could still punch through with most things that aren't light pistols.

Riggers got...forgotten about, I'd say. There are basically three to five pages of rules for driving and rigging, the Control Rig costs a ton but sucks just as much...

Generally, despite how much issues I can dredge up for 4e or 5e, I would still recommend playing either of them over 6e. CGL does not deserve your money, though.

Removing Armor except from the Defense Rating calculation is weird, TBH I'm tempted go back to like 2e (don't know what the others did) and just subtract the armor rating from the Damage Value, or similar (at least I think that's what you did back then). And in 2e they had hardened armor, and vehicle weapons 'upstaged' vs body armor (a cannon can shoot through a tank; how can your piddly armored vest slow it down?). I might have to adjust some things.... or maybe count armor + body for downstaging damage...

Not worried about skragging a ganger in one shot vs two, they don't have to get up and you don't have to geek everyone, depending on how you play. Of course, it's shadowrun, so then again, maybe we just buy bigger guns. :smallbiggrin:

For spirits--they are only slightly more powerful than 2e, in 2e you could fight them hand-to-hand, and your could do some damage, just not much. It was your willpower back then, not the blade, that did it. So now you need a mage, or you run away, or a weapon that = its vulnerability.


Multiple actions are great for representing speed, but also terrible. The issue is that everybody who's not playing a combat character is already barely o participating, if at all, but now they have to wait longer until they can do anything.

Of course, the other solution is to keep PC speed in a relatively narrow band, which is what I try to do, or keep combat short.

I'm not saying they're faultless. Netrunners are even worse than Deckers for locking other players out of the game. I just think it generally has less issues than Shadowrun 6e.

Shadowrun's always been like that with multiple actions. A friend of mine always seemed to go on like a 97... more seriously, it would be 32, 35, 28... he'd get 2-3 attacks before everyone else. But it was still fun. Eventually we all learned to increase reflexes etc, and 6e doesn't allow that many unanswered actions any more. Personally I like being able to strive for that multiattack.
-----------
As GM in 2e I just learned to make sure there were always appropriate challengers, including amped-up spellcasters with shielding, riggers with drones and HMGs, etc. Seems like that part won't change. :smallwink: And yeah, that meant that the villains would geek the mage... just like the Runners... with awesome power comes responsibility... and danger.

Wish it had more critters in the book, though.

And I guess decking and going astral are the same as before -- try to get the PCs not to do it, unless you do it on a different day, because everyone else sits around doing nothing. Or have 2 GMs. Done that, too.

Edge seems... complex... still trying to figure it out. And still reading...

[olskool]

Removing Armor except from the Defense Rating calculation is weird, TBH I'm tempted go back to like 2e (don't know what the others did) and just subtract the armor rating from the Damage Value, or similar (at least I think that's what you did back then). And in 2e they had hardened armor, and vehicle weapons 'upstaged' vs body armor (a cannon can shoot through a tank; how can your piddly armored vest slow it down?). I might have to adjust some things.... or maybe count armor + body for downstaging damage...

Not worried about skragging a ganger in one shot vs two, they don't have to get up and you don't have to geek everyone, depending on how you play. Of course, it's shadowrun, so then again, maybe we just buy bigger guns.



We did armor in 2e as both soft armor and hard armor. Hard armor reduced the WOUND LEVEL by 1 per rated point but was bulky and hard. This made concealment a problem. Soft Armor (including *dermal armor) was much easier to conceal and provided a number of "Automatic Successes" equal to its rating which were added to the "Successes" from the target's body roll. The addition of *BIOWARE complicated things so we gave it the RAW rule of adding additional dice to the target's body roll but it was nearly undetectable, unlike dermal armor.

*Please note that this is the exact opposite of how those armors worked in RAW 2e.

[Easy e]

That still sounds better than 2e, which was:
Attacker declares action, rolls dice. Looks for 6's and rerolls. Again. Again. ("No, I want to roll them out, I don't care if I only needed an 8.")
Defender rolls. Rolls-out 6's. Again and again.

Then you had karma, which sounds sorta like edge in this case, where you could add extra dice or buy successes, reroll failures etc, and team karma...

Seems like this removes 2-5 minutes per set of rolls?

You forgot about allocating various Combat/magic/decking pools too.

Despite what a "heavy lift" the rolling system was, I found the players really enjoyed it a lot. Often, i would have one do their rolling, and move onto the next person and get them started on stuff. Then comeback for a result.

The choosing of combat pools and Karma made the players think a bit about allocating resources way more than I have ever seen in D&D. Plus, the combat pool and opposed rolling kept them engaged when they were being attacked as well.