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Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-16, 06:45 PM
Does your wizard player use MMM repeatedly to foil your campaign time-tables and encounters per day? Here are a few tricks to turn the tables on the wizard:

Sending: Sending cannot be stopped by ANYTHING short of an AMF. Just have the BBEG send "WAKE UP LAZY BOY" to the wizard 6 hours after he went to rest. Twice. Rest is ruined no matter where he is. :smallamused:

Nightmare: The wizard can't rest for 24 hours.

Dispel Magic: While the portal to the mansion is shut and made invisible, it still exists in the Prime. It is also the point of origin of the spell so a dispel magic that includes it ends the spell. This can forcibly evict the wizard from within while he's sleeping and surprised and without having prepared spells.

Gateseal: You seal the portal so the wizard can't get out. Unless he knows the wish or plane shift spells he's trapped for a very long time. Ofcourse, he can attempt to dispel the spell or dismiss it while inside. What happens when the extradimensional space he's in vanishes while he can't get out is up to you. :smallamused:

Antimagic Field: You and your fighter minion move next to the portal and you cast antimagic field or antimagic aura. The sleeping, surprised, undressed wizard suddenly drops in an antimagic sphere and is captured.

Prismatic Wall: You make one right before the exit portal. The wizard exits-and passes through thus is slain.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-16, 07:22 PM
Stuff

Wow. DM fiating a player to death for using his class abilities. Thats pretty low.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 07:27 PM
It's a good thing that everyone always sees those invisible hidden doors (two separate adjectives, they should be hidden somewhere no one else is going to find them) Otherwise a Wizard might be able to sleep in peace.

Also, AMF would I believe not do that. I think that it would just suppress the Planar Portal that is the entrance. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't reach into other planes and drag things out. (Take a look at Bag of Holding for example.)

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-16, 07:29 PM
Wow. DM fiating a player to death for using his class abilities. Thats pretty low.

Nope. That's "BBEG increasing effectiveness by using his own class abilities". See, if party wizard can use his class abilities to gain easy rests and thus not worry about resource expenditure then the BBEG is also entitled to using his own class abilities to find the wizard's rest place and exploit its weakness.


Also, AMF would I believe not do that. I think that it would just suppress the Planar Portal that is the entrance.
The point of origin of the spell is in the prime material-thus using an AMF that includes it surpresses the entire spell.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 07:31 PM
Nope. That's "BBEG increasing effectiveness by using his own class abilities". See, if party wizard can use his class abilities to gain easy rests and thus not worry about resource expenditure then the BBEG is also entitled to using his own class abilities to find the wizard's rest place and exploit its weakness.

Unless he you know, happens to be an elf, or have Mindblank (since he has MMM that seems likely.)

You'll have a hard time finding the Wizard while he's on a different plane (and you can't find where that plane joins this one.)

deadseashoals
2007-11-16, 07:32 PM
Wow. DM using intelligent tactics on a player by a spellcasting NPC for using his class abilities to ruin balance by removing resource management from the game. Thats pretty awesome.

I think you misspelled some stuff, fixed it for you.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-16, 07:34 PM
Unless he you know, happens to be an elf, or have Mindblank (since he has MMM that seems likely.)
That is why every enemy spellcaster starts with Greater Dispelling in every fight, having a chance to end the already cast mind-blank.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 07:34 PM
I think you misspelled some stuff, fixed it for you.

How did the NPC spellcaster actually find the invisible object again?

Imagine the situation:

Sometimes there is a Magical, Invisible, Door. It could be anywhere in the world. You need to find it in eight hours. Go.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 07:36 PM
That is why every enemy spellcaster starts with Greater Dispelling in every fight, having a chance to end the already cast mind-blank.

Well if they already fought, then chances are pretty good one of them is dead (assuming the Wizard has a party so he can't just teleport away.) So I don't see why you would Nightmare the guy if you already had your shot to kill him. And why doesn't he Nightmare you?

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-16, 07:36 PM
Sometimes there is a Magical, Invisible, Door. It could be anywhere in the world. You need to find it in eight hours. Go
Trace Teleport + See Invisibility. Both lower level than MMM.


I added another alternative to the first post-sending. :smallamused:

Woot Spitum
2007-11-16, 07:44 PM
Do bear in mind that this will not just hurt the wizard, but the entire party. You are attacking the party when everyone has set aside all their weapons and armor, and has used up most/all their spells and per/day abilities. While this is a good way to ramp up challenge ratings and achieve a total party kill, it will not be fun for anyone in the party. These solutions are a little too close to "rocks fall, everyone dies." Sorta, "rocks fall, everyone sucks."

It would be better to simply houserule that the spell is usable only once per week, if it really bothers you.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-16, 07:45 PM
Another good counter for MMM (and Rope Trick) is:

"You want to take that Bag of Holding/Portable Hole/Heward's Handy Haversack into another extradimensional space? Oh, my my my. Well, let's see ..."

Or my favorite:

"Those spells do not exist."

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-16, 07:53 PM
Yeah, but the sending is both cooler and RAW. You can end the wizard's rest anytime, no matter where he is, no matter his defences.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 07:54 PM
Another good counter for MMM (and Rope Trick) is:

"You want to take that Bag of Holding/Portable Hole/Heward's Handy Haversack into another extradimensional space? Oh, my my my. Well, let's see ..."

Or my favorite:

"Those spells do not exist."

I believe he was working towards a more DM being an ******* within the rules then he was actual houseruling (lets not get into that argument, both of those are house rules.)


Trace Teleport + See Invisibility. Both lower level than MMM.


I added another alternative to the first post-sending.

Which again implies that he has already met the party, which begs the question, why since not all of 95% of parties can teleport, didn't he just kill everyone/ everyone that didn't teleport away?

And if he did, then why are you being an ******* by making sure that the only surviving party member gets killed too?

And if the whole party can Teleport, why/how did they all go to the same place?

And dispelling a Mindblank isn't going to get you a Nightmare if they are using the Before Bed Prepare buffs system.

EDIT: And I think you need to rethink sending. First, I can sleep through someone talking. Second, You don't have to sleep in order to regain spells, just rest. 25 Words even if it did wake me up isn't going to disturb my rest, and I'm going right back to sleep.

Woot Spitum
2007-11-16, 07:56 PM
Or my favorite:

"Those spells do not exist."See, this is probably the fairest way to deal anything that you feel is broken. Tell your players, up front, before they make their characters, what you don't want them using in your campaign. Don't just arbitrarily kill them.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-16, 08:03 PM
I believe he was working towards a more DM being an ******* within the rules then he was actual houseruling (lets not get into that argument, both of those are house rules.)

Arguably they are, but penalties for bringing one extradimensional space into another are also supported indirectly by the rules as written, by virtue of the effects of certain magical items on one another. While it's true that a perfectly literal reading of the RAW says that only Bags of Holding and Portable Holes are affected by this, the logic behind those two items interacting with one another so violently easily follows to any other extradimensional spaces without any twisting.

However ...


See, this is probably the fairest way to deal anything that you feel is broken. Tell your players, up front, before they make their characters, what you don't want them using in your campaign. Don't just arbitrarily kill them.

I agree with this.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 08:12 PM
Arguably they are, but penalties for bringing one extradimensional space into another are also supported indirectly by the rules as written, by virtue of the effects of certain magical items on one another. While it's true that a perfectly literal reading of the RAW says that only Bags of Holding and Portable Holes are affected by this, the logic behind those two items interacting with one another so violently easily follows to any other extradimensional spaces without any twisting.

Lots of things are "suggested" across the many D&D books, but if there are no rules for it, making up your own is houseruling, "suggestions" and "similar cases" don't change that.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-16, 08:16 PM
EDIT: And I think you need to rethink sending. First, I can sleep through someone talking. Second, You don't have to sleep in order to regain spells, just rest. 25 Words even if it did wake me up isn't going to disturb my rest, and I'm going right back to sleep.
Additionally, there's this nifty clause in the needed rest for an arcanist:

Rest: To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.(Emphasis added).

So if you ping a Wizard awake every 6 hours, all you've done is change the rest time from 8 hours to 10 (assuming you ping the Wizard twice in that time). You'd need to ping the Wizard awake at least once per hour to prevent the Wizard from ever getting enough rest to replenish spells ... and if you're doing that, you're not resting, either.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-16, 08:18 PM
Lots of things are "suggested" across the many D&D books, but if there are no rules for it, making up your own is houseruling, "suggestions" and "similar cases" don't change that.

Well, I'd also "houserule" that you can't take actions while suffering the "dead" condition, that you can't actually form a line of peasants and create a "railgun" effect of handing off some item from peasant to peasant at the speed of light ...

And etc.

So, yes, I suppose if you want to get literalist, there are many "houserules" I'd have to make just to render the game playable. :smalltongue:

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-16, 08:18 PM
Unless you have an item that can cast sending 1/hour on its own.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-16, 08:20 PM
Unless you have an item that can cast sending 1/hour on its own.

Or have a confederate help you. Trade out -- one of you rests, the other sends pings.

Remember: Batman the Paranoid may spend 20 hours per day in his MMM, but people who live in the actual world have access to the resources that can be found there, including, simply, other people.

Kantolin
2007-11-16, 08:22 PM
Sending: Sending cannot be stopped by ANYTHING short of an AMF. Just have the BBEG send "WAKE UP LAZY BOY" to the wizard 6 hours after he went to rest. Twice. Rest is ruined no matter where he is.

Wouldn't that, among other things, screw up the BBEG's own rest?

If neither of them have spells, and the wizard has a party, my money's now on the wizard.

Edit: Gee. Ninja!

tyckspoon
2007-11-16, 08:32 PM
Trying to ping somebody awake with Sending seems like the kind of thing Concentration was made to resist (Activity that needs full attention: Being Asleep. Distracting factor: Sending. Skill to resist distractions: Concentration!) Autohypnosis would also work. Alternately: Hearing something when you're asleep requires a Listen check with a -10 modifier. If it's possible to voluntarily fail a skill check, the wizard can choose not to hear your Sending and never be awakened by it. Or, on the second night you attempt this strategy against the wizard, he sleeps with earplugs in.

Suzuro
2007-11-16, 08:32 PM
I'd have to agree on just saying that you don't want them using certain spells, it's fair to everybody and it doesn't screw anyone over because they decided they couldn't win.

-Suzuro

Chronos
2007-11-16, 08:34 PM
The rules as written do absolutely say that
Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.(from the text of Rope Trick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm))

Unfortunately, the rules don't say what the hazards of such an act are. The only place any such effect is described is with respect to Bags of Holding and Portable Holes, and even if you decide to apply that to all such cases, there are two different effects given, depending on which one is inside the other, so you don't know which one to use.

What happened here is that, in Second Edition, there was an explicit rule about overlapping extradimensional spaces, which was referenced in the text of Bags of Holding, Rope Trick, and other places. But apparently, the Third Edition design team didn't coordinate well enough, and the rule made it through in some places, but not all. So whoever wrote Portable Hole and Bags of Holding included the rule, and whoever wrote Rope Trick put in a reference to the general rule, but whoever would have written the general rule, didn't.

So the net effect is that some old-school players, who remember 2nd edition, might still use that rule, not realizing that it doesn't exist any more, and some more imaginative DMs might implement a version of the rule, based on the cryptic text remaining in Rope Trick, and the rest of us just end up confused.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 09:00 PM
Once again. Send all you want. You don't have to sleep for eight hours, only "rest" (which is explicitly different from sleeping in the description) so you can Send and Send and Send and all you are doing is wasting your spell slots while he regains his.

And Chronos, that's exactly my point. Standing in a field is "hazardous." Hell everything is hazardous in D&D. But unless it has defined Hazards then anything you make up is still a DM houseruling it.

UglyPanda
2007-11-16, 09:04 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a

It briefly covers the rope trick problem.

Kantolin
2007-11-16, 09:12 PM
As a note, even if the above fixes worked / were feasible / weren't specifically screwing over the wizard.

They still strike me as loads superior to just sleeping out in an open field. For one, it's more comfortable.

Chronos
2007-11-16, 09:23 PM
And Chronos, that's exactly my point. Standing in a field is "hazardous." Hell everything is hazardous in D&D. But unless it has defined Hazards then anything you make up is still a DM houseruling it.Oh, I won't argue that point. I'm just pointing out that the rules as they stand right now are a bit confusing, and that because of that confusion, houserules (even "stealth houserules" that people think are RAW) are quite common in this situation. It's best if the DM and players come to an agreement (whatever that agreement is) on this point before someone tries to take a bag of holding into a rope trick.

greenknight
2007-11-16, 09:54 PM
Sending: Sending cannot be stopped by ANYTHING short of an AMF. Just have the BBEG send "WAKE UP LAZY BOY" to the wizard 6 hours after he went to rest. Twice. Rest is ruined no matter where he is. :smallamused:

Nope. The spell description says: "Even if the sending is received, the subject is not obligated to act upon it in any manner." So the subject does doesn't act on it in any way - including waking up, or ceasing to rest.


Nightmare: The wizard can't rest for 24 hours.

Until someone casts Dispel Evil on the subject, in which case you are stunned (no save) for 10 minutes per caster level of the Dispel Evil. No thanks!


Dispel Magic:

This requires you to find the entrance, and then cast Dispel Magic on it. Not always possible (and if the mage is smart, usually practically impossible). Note that Trace Teleport will do absolutely nothing if the Wizard got to the starting location using a Phantom Steed, or dozens of other methods.


Gateseal:

Again, see Dispel Magic.


Antimagic Field: You and your fighter minion move next to the portal and you cast antimagic field or antimagic aura. The sleeping, surprised, undressed wizard suddenly drops in an antimagic sphere and is captured.

Again, see Dispel Magic.


Prismatic Wall: You make one right before the exit portal. The wizard exits-and passes through thus is slain.[/quote]

See Dispel Magic. And what's to stop the wizard looking through the portal before going through it and noticing the Sphere?

Overall, I'd give these ideas a D-, since without DM cheating they have almost no chance of success.

tyckspoon
2007-11-16, 10:06 PM
See Dispel Magic. And what's to stop the wizard looking through the portal before going through it and noticing the Sphere?

You might want to take your own advice here. Or take a look at the actual spells mentioned before declaring a counter tactic- Prismatic Wall/Sphere and Antimagic Field both except themselves from Dispel Magic. You have to aim a Disjunction at 'em, and it's not guaranteed to work on the AMF.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 10:25 PM
You might want to take your own advice here. Or take a look at the actual spells mentioned before declaring a counter tactic- Prismatic Wall/Sphere and Antimagic Field both except themselves from Dispel Magic. You have to aim a Disjunction at 'em, and it's not guaranteed to work on the AMF.

You might want to figure out what he was saying before commenting on it.

He was telling the reader to refer to his objections to dispel magic as a counter, you know, right above that in his post.

Ponce
2007-11-16, 10:32 PM
This is sort of ridiculous. If you think MMM is too powerful, then houserule it. The wizard, in all probability, isn't going to take all these attacks on his mansion laying down, in game. This has a tendency to devolve the game into wizard duels, which just sidelines the rest of the party.

It isn't as if MMM is some incredibly complicated and extravagant three-cheese combo. It's just one spell. Nerf it. Or better yet, design your encounters keeping in mind that a mid to high level party is generally a lot more in control of when and where they get to rejuvenate themselves.

tyckspoon
2007-11-16, 10:34 PM
Ah.. that's right. Statement withdrawn, then. Then it's a matter of trying to find the location of the Mansion. I would agree that if the party has withdrawn from the area completely, there's not much chance of finding them. If they're still in the BBEG's fortress for some reason, Greater Prying Eyes should be able to find the door to the Mansion or Rope Trick portal before the resting period is up.

Crow
2007-11-16, 11:20 PM
The wiz could always fly for a long time and then pop the mansion out...that might be hard to find?

Irreverent Fool
2007-11-16, 11:43 PM
Well if they already fought, then chances are pretty good one of them is dead (assuming the Wizard has a party so he can't just teleport away.) So I don't see why you would Nightmare the guy if you already had your shot to kill him. And why doesn't he Nightmare you?

You Nightmare him because you're the BBEG and that's the kind of thing you do. You're a villain, full of yourself, and ultimately need to live up to the "E" in your acronym.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 11:56 PM
You Nightmare him because you're the BBEG and that's the kind of thing you do. You're a villain, full of yourself, and ultimately need to live up to the "E" in your acronym.

Or you kill him because you are evil. Or you actually use something that works instead of Nightmare since most Wizards are immune to it as a matter of course.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-17, 12:04 AM
Dispel Magic: While the portal to the mansion is shut and made invisible, it still exists in the Prime. It is also the point of origin of the spell so a dispel magic that includes it ends the spell. This can forcibly evict the wizard from within while he's sleeping and surprised and without having prepared spells.

...

Antimagic Field: You and your fighter minion move next to the portal and you cast antimagic field or antimagic aura. The sleeping, surprised, undressed wizard suddenly drops in an antimagic sphere and is captured.


Oh, do note: Unlike Rope Trick, the Mansion doesn't specify what happens if you're inside when the duration expires - nor does it inherit from any other spell. What happens to those inside is completely up to the DM.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-11-17, 06:19 AM
Quick question. In all honesty, unless the DM has a very compelling quest hook, why is the party still adventuring at this point? By this point, a wizard can keep MMM up for over a day, and can cast it in 6 seconds. It comes stocked with infinite food, and has space and servants for the entire party to live out their days in decadent luxury. Unless it is an apocalyptic campaign, or there is a friend at severe risk, I'm taking my money and buying a 10' by 10' by 5' room and barricading the door. And giving my whole party the option of joining me to live out the rest of their years in retirement at age 30. I don't want to be cheesy, but that spell seems to auto-win D&D.

Freelance Henchman
2007-11-17, 06:34 AM
Does anyone actually enjoy playing a hermit who hangs out in his extradimensional hidey-hole most of his time? Where's the fun in that?

Rachel Lorelei
2007-11-17, 06:55 AM
Quick question. In all honesty, unless the DM has a very compelling quest hook, why is the party still adventuring at this point? By this point, a wizard can keep MMM up for over a day, and can cast it in 6 seconds. It comes stocked with infinite food, and has space and servants for the entire party to live out their days in decadent luxury. Unless it is an apocalyptic campaign, or there is a friend at severe risk, I'm taking my money and buying a 10' by 10' by 5' room and barricading the door. And giving my whole party the option of joining me to live out the rest of their years in retirement at age 30. I don't want to be cheesy, but that spell seems to auto-win D&D.

Because people have desires and goals that aren't covered by "servants and food"?

greenknight
2007-11-17, 07:00 AM
Unless it is an apocalyptic campaign, or there is a friend at severe risk, I'm taking my money and buying a 10' by 10' by 5' room and barricading the door.

At 13th level +, that is often the kind of campaign which the PCs would be facing... Heck, I've seen much lower level characters in a save the world kind of campaign.

HidaTsuzua
2007-11-17, 11:28 AM
I'm not sure if the wizard would be naked. If he's wearing armor, it'll definitely be some sort of light armor which is okay to sleep in. If he's a non-armor wearing wizard, he'll have mage armor likely up 24/7. Item component pouches are an interesting case. Also spell slots don't empty out while resting, so a wizard will have whatever spells he had before sleeping. Sure he might be low on spells overall, but he'll have something worthwhile most of the time (a glitterdust or haste or something like that).

Then again, with MMM, you have to find the darn thing and then do something about it. If the wizard wasn't using the MMM or similar spells, you'll just send a kobold or goblin or animated candlestick and that'll ruin the rest. Sure, it'll get smashed 10 ways to Sunday but if a sending can disrupt the wizard so should this.

Really the purpose of MMM and Rope Trick is to cut out the vast majority of possible random encounters. You can alway get around it, but you'll have to justify it. That's doable, but don't just make it a petty GM slap (which are fun to provoke depending on GM).

KIDS
2007-11-17, 11:39 AM
Sending is not a significant interruption. You can do anything that isn't combat or particularly strenous or spend some time awake without interfering with "rest".

Jack_Simth
2007-11-17, 12:03 PM
Sending is not a significant interruption. You can do anything that isn't combat or particularly strenous or spend some time awake without interfering with "rest".

Sorry, doesn't quite work that way:

Rest: To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.(Emphasis added).

Sorry. To talking for Mr. Wizard while he naps.

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-17, 12:08 PM
But the wizard isn't taking part in a conversation.

Chronos
2007-11-17, 12:31 PM
Then again, with MMM, you have to find the darn thing and then do something about it. If the wizard wasn't using the MMM or similar spells, you'll just send a kobold or goblin or animated candlestick and that'll ruin the rest. Sure, it'll get smashed 10 ways to Sunday but if a sending can disrupt the wizard so should this.Oh, if you're going to rest anyway, you may as well do it in a Mansion. The problem with the spell isn't that it lets you be safe(r) for the 8 hours out of 24 you're spending asleep. The problem is that it makes you so safe (or at least, many players and DMs think so) that there's no penalty to resting after every encounter. If you make it at just a little bit risky, the players will still pitch their extradimensional space at night, but they might be a bit reluctant to keep their guard down 95% of the time, as required by the standard MMM tactic.

Woot Spitum
2007-11-17, 12:32 PM
Listening and conversation are not synonyms. Listening is hearing what someone says. Conversation is that plus talking back to them.

deadseashoals
2007-11-17, 02:39 PM
How did the NPC spellcaster actually find the invisible object again?

Imagine the situation:

Sometimes there is a Magical, Invisible, Door. It could be anywhere in the world. You need to find it in eight hours. Go.

I was thinking of the situation where the PCs set up camp in the NPC's lair. If I were an NPC badguy, I would sweep my lair with detect magic/see invisibility/invisibility purge/aurasight/whatever before sleeping. If they leave, go to some random place, and then set up the MMM, no, you probably shouldn't be harassed without considerable effort expended on the NPC's part to divine your location. But then you'll have to get back into the lair.

Setra
2007-11-17, 02:52 PM
Door to Door Salesmen.

Oh yes, they'll find you.

Kaelik
2007-11-17, 03:13 PM
I was thinking of the situation where the PCs set up camp in the NPC's lair. If I were an NPC badguy, I would sweep my lair with detect magic/see invisibility/invisibility purge/aurasight/whatever before sleeping. If they leave, go to some random place, and then set up the MMM, no, you probably shouldn't be harassed without considerable effort expended on the NPC's part to divine your location. But then you'll have to get back into the lair.

The problem is that for anyone casting MMM, you can just teleport out, teleport in the next day. You need two teleports, but the second one can just as easily be used to retreat if you need to so it overlaps with the usual requirement.

The way to sweep your Lair as a BBEG is Greater Prying Eyes. (as someone mentioned earlier.)

deadseashoals
2007-11-17, 03:20 PM
The problem is that for anyone casting MMM, you can just teleport out, teleport in the next day. You need two teleports, but the second one can just as easily be used to retreat if you need to so it overlaps with the usual requirement.

The way to sweep your Lair as a BBEG is Greater Prying Eyes. (as someone mentioned earlier.)

I suppose it's more of a way of dealing with rope trick than it is a way of dealing with MMM. However, at that level, I doubt either MMM or teleport would work against a smart BBEG, who would have his lair under a forbiddance spell from either himself or a minion. Preferably a minion with prayer beads and divine spellpower, borrowing the BBEG's orange ioun stone :smallbiggrin:

Woot Spitum
2007-11-17, 04:02 PM
Door to Door Salesmen.

Oh yes, they'll find you.

That's what the "I Prepared Explosive Runes This Morning" doormat is for.:smallamused:

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-17, 04:30 PM
Hmm. Does stepping out of the MMM count as a "teleport"? Because then Anticipate Teleport, Greater will probably buy enough time to put them in the "Oh ****" situation.:smallbiggrin: Otherwise, maybe for Rope Trick I guess.

greenknight
2007-11-17, 05:48 PM
The problem is that for anyone casting MMM, you can just teleport out, teleport in the next day. You need two teleports, but the second one can just as easily be used to retreat if you need to so it overlaps with the usual requirement.

MMM creates an extradimensional space, so teleport won't cut it - you'd need Plane Shift or something similar.


The way to sweep your Lair as a BBEG is Greater Prying Eyes. (as someone mentioned earlier.)

As far as I can tell, Prying Eyes don't have hands, or any way to deal with an obstacle except flight. So if someone is using them (and the party should have spotted at least one or two such eyes, even if they weren't able to destroy them), shut some doors, move the furniture around to form a tight barracade, or if you want to get really elaborate, throw up a Wall of Stone. Or, if you're in an area with very thick, non-metallic walls, cast Passwall, go partway in, then cast passwall again at a right angle. Move into the area of the second passwall, and dismiss your first one. Now set up your MMM, but be sure to prepare Plane Shift in case someone destroys your second passage.


Sorry, doesn't quite work that way:
(Emphasis added).

Sorry. To talking for Mr. Wizard while he naps.

Sorry, Sending doesn't quite work that way either:


You contact a particular creature with which you are familiar and send a short message of twenty-five words or less to the subject. The subject recognizes you if it knows you. It can answer in like manner immediately. A creature with an Intelligence score as low as 1 can understand the sending, though the subject’s ability to react is limited as normal by its Intelligence score. Even if the sending is received, the subject is not obligated to act upon it in any manner.

(Emphasis added).

You can send all the sendings you want, all the subject has to do is choose not to act on them at all. The sendings then take on the status of background noise, which doesn't interrupt rest.

Chronos
2007-11-17, 07:07 PM
As far as I can tell, Prying Eyes don't have hands, or any way to deal with an obstacle except flight. So if someone is using them (and the party should have spotted at least one or two such eyes, even if they weren't able to destroy them), shut some doors, move the furniture around to form a tight barracade, or if you want to get really elaborate, throw up a Wall of Stone....Thereby guaranteeing that the BBEG won't notice your presence. Genius!

Kaelik
2007-11-17, 07:25 PM
MMM creates an extradimensional space, so teleport won't cut it - you'd need Plane Shift or something similar.

I was referring to the act of teleporting to somewhere random, then finding the nearest secluded place, then casting MMM. Because then no one will find you MMM. The next morning, you just teleport back to where you left.


As far as I can tell, Prying Eyes don't have hands, or any way to deal with an obstacle except flight. So if someone is using them (and the party should have spotted at least one or two such eyes, even if they weren't able to destroy them), shut some doors, move the furniture around to form a tight barracade, or if you want to get really elaborate, throw up a Wall of Stone. Or, if you're in an area with very thick, non-metallic walls, cast Passwall, go partway in, then cast passwall again at a right angle. Move into the area of the second passwall, and dismiss your first one. Now set up your MMM, but be sure to prepare Plane Shift in case someone destroys your second passage.

Except he has minions and he's only trying to find you. So if he sweeps the place and find weird things (IE all doors must be opened at X o'clock or I start randomly killing henchies.) He then investigates them with minions/himself, more closely.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-17, 09:24 PM
Sorry, Sending doesn't quite work that way either:

(Emphasis added).

You can send all the sendings you want, all the subject has to do is choose not to act on them at all. The sendings then take on the status of background noise, which doesn't interrupt rest.
I was actually referring to KIDS' note that he could do anything that wasn't strenuous - I was mostly just pointing out that "strenuous" has a very funny definition in terms of a Wizard preparing spells.

PaladinBoy
2007-11-17, 11:22 PM
All right. First off, I think if the party is going for a few encounters, trying to get as far as possible, but finally runs out of steam and retreats to rest in an MMM? The BBEG will have reorganized, and the players will face quite a lot of resistance near where they teleported out, but that's it. A smart party will realize, hey, maybe the BBEG will try to figure out where we'll come back in and ambush us! and make plans.

If the wizard is going nova every encounter, the druid is summoning armies of creatures, and the cleric is smashing through resistance with buffs? The party retreats and rests after every encounter so they never have to face an encounter at any less than peak power? Now my BBEG has permanent magical sensors liberally strewn through his hideout; as soon as the party leaves, he teleports to their exit point with his psionic cohort, who uses trace teleport to find them. He waits a little while, then teleports to their location, uses see invisibility to confirm, and spends the next 5 rounds playing with the Delay Spell, Transdimensional Spell, and possibly Quicken Spell from rods. He can get 5 fireballs and 3 delayed blast fireballs to go off all at once, and with Transdimensional Spell? Your secure mansion suddenly isn't so secure. Roll Reflex saves for the 125d6 fire damage you're taking. (Or sonic, or electricity, or whatever, if he has archmage levels.) That's close to 220 average damage - with a successful save. (EDIT: That assumes that I let them save while flat-footed.) Even if the party lives through that, I wish them luck surviving the minions, and the BBEG hasn't even started on 9th level spells yet.

I don't think they'd consider that fun, but if my players started acting like that and refused any out-of-game requests to tone it down a little, I'd consider it.

Khanderas
2007-11-19, 04:58 AM
All right. First off, I think if the party is going for a few encounters, trying to get as far as possible, but finally runs out of steam and retreats to rest in an MMM? The BBEG will have reorganized, and the players will face quite a lot of resistance near where they teleported out, but that's it. A smart party will realize, hey, maybe the BBEG will try to figure out where we'll come back in and ambush us! and make plans.

If the wizard is going nova every encounter, the druid is summoning armies of creatures, and the cleric is smashing through resistance with buffs? The party retreats and rests after every encounter so they never have to face an encounter at any less than peak power? Now my BBEG has permanent magical sensors liberally strewn through his hideout; as soon as the party leaves, he teleports to their exit point with his psionic cohort, who uses trace teleport to find them. He waits a little while, then teleports to their location, uses see invisibility to confirm, and spends the next 5 rounds playing with the Delay Spell, Transdimensional Spell, and possibly Quicken Spell from rods. He can get 5 fireballs and 3 delayed blast fireballs to go off all at once, and with Transdimensional Spell? Your secure mansion suddenly isn't so secure. Roll Reflex saves for the 125d6 fire damage you're taking. (Or sonic, or electricity, or whatever, if he has archmage levels.) That's close to 220 average damage - with a successful save. (EDIT: That assumes that I let them save while flat-footed.) Even if the party lives through that, I wish them luck surviving the minions, and the BBEG hasn't even started on 9th level spells yet.

I don't think they'd consider that fun, but if my players started acting like that and refused any out-of-game requests to tone it down a little, I'd consider it.
I like the way you think. Going nova on other peoples property is not something that is possible for the PC's alone.
It's not nice, what you suggest, but it sure is fitting if they wont cooperate with the DM.

Kantolin
2007-11-19, 05:33 AM
I actually had a long comment in place, then I noted this little gem:


and refused any out-of-game requests to tone it down a little

Which strikes me as the real solution to the problem indeed: Talk to your players.

Killing the PCs through what feels a lot like DM fiat will (most likely) result in the campaign ending. Therefore, if your PCs won't knock it off, you may as well just stop DMing for them, and/or see if there's a different style that everyone can enjoy.

Remember, some people prefer just hammering through encounters after a hard week's work.

lord_khaine
2007-11-19, 06:02 AM
PaladinBoy, are you sure transdimensional spell works that way?
as i recall it only affects creatures that are partly in the prime material plane, like fx incorporal creatures.

Quietus
2007-11-19, 06:39 AM
PaladinBoy, are you sure transdimensional spell works that way?
as i recall it only affects creatures that are partly in the prime material plane, like fx incorporal creatures.

Transdimensional spell, if memory serves, specifically references extradimensional spaces.

kjones
2007-11-19, 03:25 PM
See, this is why my standard response to the Wizard wanting to rest and regain spells after every goddamn encounter is:

"Sorry, you're not sleepy yet."

Like the antithesis of a three-year-old at nap-time. (Yes, I know you technically don't have to sleep, but come on.)

Maybe this is because I tend not to run higher-level games, but in my campaign, when the wizard bitches and moans about running out of spells, the rest of the party tells her to get over it and soldiers on, and maybe next time she'll be a little more careful.

Dausuul
2007-11-19, 04:36 PM
See, this is why my standard response to the Wizard wanting to rest and regain spells after every goddamn encounter is:

"Sorry, you're not sleepy yet."

Like the antithesis of a three-year-old at nap-time. (Yes, I know you technically don't have to sleep, but come on.)

To which the party's usual response is, "Right, we wait until we get sleepy."


Maybe this is because I tend not to run higher-level games, but in my campaign, when the wizard bitches and moans about running out of spells, the rest of the party tells her to get over it and soldiers on, and maybe next time she'll be a little more careful.

Some parties do that. Other parties stop and rest when the spells are running low, unless they're under time pressure or have reason to believe resting is unsafe (and that's the whole point of using MMM). The non-casters figure, quite reasonably, that they'll have better support from the casters if said casters get to rest, so why risk a TPK by pressing on needlessly?

This is particularly the case with parties at mid- to high-levels, where caster support is critically important.

Severus
2007-11-19, 04:48 PM
Yeah, but the sending is both cooler and RAW. You can end the wizard's rest anytime, no matter where he is, no matter his defences.

I wake up from time to time at night and don't consider that my rest is wasted.

I think if your game is at the point that you need to use this mechanisms, then you have more fundamental problems with motivating your players and controlling your game and its pacing.

If I want something to happen at a certain pace, I have consequences if the PCs don't get things done by a certain time.

If evil bad is doing the ritual of ultimate badness, then taking a nap while he finishes is not a good idea.

If they take a nap while he picks up and moves to his other secret lair, they won't be happy.

You don't have to penalize one particular tactic (a magnificent mansion) to get players focused. Give them a reason to do it quickly.

Belteshazzar
2007-11-19, 04:55 PM
Wizard: I cast Mordenkinen's Magnificent Mansion and hide inside

Me: A Mr. Mordenkinen politely ask you to leave before he calls the cops

Wizard: Bwah?

Me: What, did you think it was just called that to fit the three word rymeing scheme?

But seriously I have decided that the Mansion is an actual place of which there are only one (a positively massive yet still singular structure) drifting in the Astral Sea. Now the fact is that 'most' of the rooms are perfectly safe and the environment is very serene, but there is always the chance that pests may have crept in. An other people of similarly extraordinary power may also be relaxing in the almost innumerable rooms. Could even make for a nice adventuring environment if you really tried.

Setra
2007-11-19, 05:00 PM
To which the party's usual response is, "Right, we wait until we get sleepy."
"You get bored and lose 1 int"

tainsouvra
2007-11-19, 05:23 PM
"You get bored and lose 1 int" That's when the DM takes 1d3 nonlethal bludgeoning damage to remind him that he is not, in fact, god.

AKA_Bait
2007-11-19, 05:27 PM
Wizard: I cast Mordenkinen's Magnificent Mansion and hide inside

Me: A Mr. Mordenkinen politely ask you to leave before he calls the cops

Wizard: Bwah?

Me: What, did you think it was just called that to fit the three word rymeing scheme?

But seriously I have decided that the Mansion is an actual place of which there are only one (a positively massive yet still singular structure) drifting in the Astral Sea. Now the fact is that 'most' of the rooms are perfectly safe and the environment is very serene, but there is always the chance that pests may have crept in. An other people of similarly extraordinary power may also be relaxing in the almost innumerable rooms. Could even make for a nice adventuring environment if you really tried.


That's... brilliant...

kjones
2007-11-19, 07:40 PM
That's when the DM takes 1d3 nonlethal bludgeoning damage to remind him that he is not, in fact, god.

Beg to differ. My screen has written, on the front, "The GameMaster is always right." That's right above the row of skulls it has representing each PC I've killed.

Reijura
2007-11-19, 07:43 PM
Wizard: I cast Mordenkinen's Magnificent Mansion and hide inside

Me: A Mr. Mordenkinen politely ask you to leave before he calls the cops

Wizard: Bwah?

Me: What, did you think it was just called that to fit the three word rymeing scheme?

But seriously I have decided that the Mansion is an actual place of which there are only one (a positively massive yet still singular structure) drifting in the Astral Sea. Now the fact is that 'most' of the rooms are perfectly safe and the environment is very serene, but there is always the chance that pests may have crept in. An other people of similarly extraordinary power may also be relaxing in the almost innumerable rooms. Could even make for a nice adventuring environment if you really tried.

Winner! I'll have to remember that if any of my pc's ever get to this point. Very a'la side quest.

Kantolin
2007-11-19, 08:04 PM
Beg to differ. My screen has written, on the front, "The GameMaster is always right." That's right above the row of skulls it has representing each PC I've killed.

This tends to result in a DM laughing manically from behind his screen to an empty table.

While his former group, on their way out, are discussing who's going to start DMing next. Or possibly, about pizza.

F.L.
2007-11-19, 08:09 PM
Another solution, if the players spend 22 hours a day in the MMM is just to send things at them that have 12 times the CR you'd normally send, as everything else in the world gets 12 times more xp than the players in the 14 hours of living they do.

AKA_Bait
2007-11-19, 08:11 PM
Another solution, if the players spend 22 hours a day in the MMM is just to send things at them that have 12 times the CR you'd normally send, as everything else in the world gets 12 times more xp than the players in the 14 hours of living they do.

More likley you'd have a TPK in short order...

Leush
2007-11-19, 08:51 PM
How odd.

What is all this DM versus players attitude I smell?

I think that the ideas presented in the OPs post are quite brilliant (as is the Balteshazzar's interpretation of MMM) for they show that the wizard is not, indeed, god.

Besides, every so often your rest has to be interrupted. Regardless of level.

It can be used in a non lethal manner. (IE, BBEG finds the mansion with his spells. Minion drops an AMF and dispels the door and mooks try to kill the pyjama clad party (hah! Pyjama party!). Then suddenly you're happy to have a monk around.)

shadow_archmagi
2007-11-20, 05:34 AM
Perhaps you could houserule it that the mansion causes a time distortion, so everything happens 3 times faster outside.

That way, stopping to rest means the villians have an entire day to prepare for your return.





Also, your concept for one, massive, omni-mansion? Beautiful. I am so going to use that for a campaign if I ever DM.

Kompera
2007-11-20, 06:30 AM
Lots of things are "suggested" across the many D&D books, but if there are no rules for it, making up your own is houseruling, "suggestions" and "similar cases" don't change that.You might be right, but what's your point? Surely you're not arguing that using a houserule to decide how to handle parts of the rules which are not explicitly defined is a bad thing? The game is not able to be played by sticking to only the RAW, so every GM has to take suggested things and houserule on them. It is an unavoidable consequence of playing the game.

As a perfect example of this, read the Wish spell. If the player choses to try for an effect not covered by the explicit examples given, he is welcome to. But at a risk: "[...] doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)"

I see suggestions there, but nothing explicit. So it's left to the GM to make the call. The DM can either forbid attempts at effects different than the explicit examples, or they can decide for themselves how to handle those attempts. Either way, it's a houserule.

Kaelik
2007-11-20, 01:48 PM
You might be right, but what's your point? Surely you're not arguing that using a houserule to decide how to handle parts of the rules which are not explicitly defined is a bad thing? The game is not able to be played by sticking to only the RAW, so every GM has to take suggested things and houserule on them. It is an unavoidable consequence of playing the game.

As a perfect example of this, read the Wish spell. If the player choses to try for an effect not covered by the explicit examples given, he is welcome to. But at a risk: "[...] doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)"

I see suggestions there, but nothing explicit. So it's left to the GM to make the call. The DM can either forbid attempts at effects different than the explicit examples, or they can decide for themselves how to handle those attempts. Either way, it's a houserule.

Houserules should not exist in theoretical discussion. The OP was attempting to show RAW ways that MMM could be handled. Therefore, houserules are not examples. Yes houserules exist, but making up your own rules doesn't mean you can treat them as if anyone else follows them when the default case is that portable holes and bags of holding can go into MMMs without a single problem.

To use you example, no one on this forum ever mentions the "greater effects of wish" except when dealing with a specific case. No build ever suggests wishing yourself infinite SR and no duel involves Wishing your opponent dead. If portable holes and bags of holding where valid examples of how to deal with MMM then so would be wishing for all MMMs in the universe to kill everyone inside them.

Craig1f
2007-11-21, 02:20 PM
All of this can be solved simply by having an adventure with a timeline. Things happen, whether or not the party is involved. Wheels turn, reinforcements arrive, monsters change their tactics, etc.

If some Wizard walks onto my island, picks one fight, and then isn't seen for another day, I will have refortified by the next day. If they attack again and disappear, I'm thinking "wtf?" and he's getting dimension anchored next time. I'm laying traps, and looking for him. Or, I'm taking all my treasure and hiding it or moving it away. Traps are being set everywhere, soldiers are being equipped, strategies are being discussed, morale and circumstance bonuses are gong up. (Morale because chiefs are giving speeches and rallying their soldiers, circumstance bonuses because they're planning and training together, and preparing, and taking various strength-enhancing drugs). Alchemists are brewing up Bull's Strength potions for their soldiers. Shamans aren't wasting any spells, and are making sure that all their spellslots are battle-related. Hostages are getting sacrificed.

You should start every adventure out with a baseline difficulty. The more time they waste after making their presence known, the harder things should get. It's not a video game, where you can stop when you want, go and rest, and all the monsters are in the exact same place they were when things started. Magnificent Mansion is a time-waster, and the party is wasting time when time is money.

tainsouvra
2007-11-21, 02:45 PM
circumstance bonuses because they're planning and training together, and preparing, and taking various strength-enhancing drugs As an aside, are any of those necessarily circumstance bonuses? Training, preparing, and planning for combat is part of baseline ability, and ability-enhancing drugs would be enhancement bonuses...

Collin152
2007-11-21, 09:24 PM
The solution to Mordenkien's Magnficent Mansion?
Dorammu's Deceitful Doors.
Suddenly that portal leads right to your torture chamber! Hah!

(NOTE: To my knowledge, no such spell exists, in name or effect. If it does, woot.)

Nonah_Me
2007-11-21, 09:51 PM
The solution to Mordenkien's Magnficent Mansion?
Dorammu's Deceitful Doors.
Suddenly that portal leads right to your torture chamber! Hah!

(NOTE: To my knowledge, no such spell exists, in name or effect. If it does, woot.)

ZOMG There should be. What an awesome trap.

Slightly off topic, I like the big omni-mansion idea, only I would modify it in the following way:

10% chance that another adventuring party from your world is using the mansion.
If that happens, 50% chance that the party is of an alignment opposed to yours, resulting in either fighting or skullduggery.
10% chance that a powerful being is having a party in the Mansion at that very moment.
If that happens, have a random encounter table ready that has ECLs that range from -4 to +4.

Collin152
2007-11-21, 10:10 PM
10% chance that another adventuring party from your world is using the mansion.
If that happens, 50% chance that the party is of an alignment opposed to yours, resulting in either fighting or skullduggery.

Or draw a chalk line down the center of the mansio, ala Gilligan's Island.

Khanderas
2007-11-22, 08:44 AM
If XP is getting more powerful by overcoming obstacles, relative to you (or your groups) powerlevel... does the group actually qualify for this if they make encounters trivial by nova'ing off all their spells and then retreat to recharge ? Think about it. Naturally should work in reverse. Something tough with limited resources should bring bonus xp.

For timed missions the problem takes care of itself. Enemy wizards prepare for getting attacked spellwise, ambushes getting prepared, the sacrifice of the maiden is completed.

SoD
2007-11-22, 11:21 AM
If we want to move back to houserules (I know they've been put here) why not just make MMMMM (Multiple Mordenkien's Magnficent Mansion M) a tarassqueable offense? Tarrasque is a very loose term for my gaming group. They live in fear, bwahaha! They're only level 2/3.

Chronos
2007-11-22, 02:15 PM
If we want to move back to houserules (I know they've been put here) why not just make MMMMM (Multiple Mordenkien's Magnficent Mansion M) a tarassqueable offense?A much better houserule would be to decide at the beginning of a session to just pack up all of your books and go home. If a campaign ever degenerates to the point where the DM needs to Rocks Fall Everyone Dies (by whatever name), the DM has failed horribly. You can say the spell doesn't exist if you don't like it, but you should absolutely not allow the players to cast it and then kill them by fiat for it.