3.5E Alternate Class Feature Rule Debate

[Kestreye]

So my friend that I'm DMing for wanted to take the monk alternate class feature from Dragon Magazine#310 to get rage, and then the barbarian alternate class feature from Dragon Magazine#330 to change that rage to one that boosts Dex rather than Str without actually having any levels of barbarian. After I looked at both I saw the barbarian is more of a variant rather than an ACF and also has to give up fast movement which he obviously doesn't have from just monk. So for a variety of reasons that's not possible but it sparked a long debate about whether or not you can take an alternate class feature without actually being the class the alternate class feature is for by having the feature changed from another source.

I'm an experienced DM with 3.5 and it seems pretty basic to me that in order to take an ACF you need to actually be the class that the ACF is for, but I cant actually find it written anywhere that that's the case so it's just the assumption that "yea to take a barbarian ACF you need to be a barbarian." Am I wrong? Looking for second opinions to be certain.

I know as DM I can also just say "this is the way its done in my campaign" regardless of the rules but that's not how we like to do things.

[frogglesmash]

I mean, even if you rule that you don't have to belong to a given class to use its ACFs, you still can't exchange Fast Movement for a different class feature if you don't have Fast Movement.

[Kestreye]

I mean, even if you rule that you don't have to belong to a given class to use its ACFs, you still can't exchange Fast Movement for a different class feature if you don't have Fast Movement.

I'm aware that's why I mentioned it and said for a variety of reasons what he wanted isn't possible. I'm only asking about the possibility of taking an alternate class feature when you have the class features that are changed but do not actually have the class that the ACF says it's for.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I think that it might vary by source. I picked three books at random that I knew contained ACFs; Dragon Magic, Sandstorm and Drow of the Underdark.

Dragon Magic is the most explicit about requiring that you actually take levels in the class.

Sandstorm is also very specific, saying that you gain all of the the abilities of the standard druid, except as noted below.

Drow if the Underdark is a little murkier, leaving some room for interpretation, but it's obviously RAI that they need the levels in the class (given that they're under the headers for Drow X, even though they don't require you to be drow. Yes, this is why it's murkier).

[pabelfly]

This thread has a section called "Variant Class Feature Chaining". If your DM says that you can trade features as the topic suggests, this goes into detail as to what sort of trades you can make.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?444354-3-5-Alternative-Class-Features-%28ported-from-Wizards-community-boards%29

Seems like it's up to DM fiat, but I wouldn't bother a DM with something like this.

[Troacctid]

Alternative class features only apply to that particular class. Unless a feature specifically says it can be applied to any class that meets the prerequisites (such as dragonscale husk or whirling frenzy), you cannot chain it onto another class.

[Darg]

If you don't want him to stack the variant class with the barbarian ACF, just tell him that raging monk doesn't give him Indomitable Will which is also traded away by the Ferocity ACf.

[Faily]

I can't find a specific ruling either, but I would also lean towards "you need to actually have levels in the class to benefit from it's Alternative Class Features[/i].

Reading the entries in PHB2, my gut feeling leans very much toward that being the RAI.

[Gorthawar]

I tend to be quite flexible with things like that in my group and so is the other DM. However, we tend to look at the overall build and the power level of the rest of the characters when deciding. A single class monk with rage/ferocity is probably alright.

[animewatcha]

Why not have him give up Unarmored movement as well if he wants ferocity?

[Darg]

Why not have him give up Unarmored movement as well if he wants ferocity?

I'd say removing still mind would be more appropriate. Ferocity trades rage and indomitable will for a different rage. Still mind is like an earlier, weaker version of indomitable will being +2 at 3rd vs +4 at 14th.