Highest Damage Sword and Shield Character for Tier 1/2 Play? [Archive]

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 08:13 AM

Like always the adventuring day length would be a big variable to address. Im not sure which option is the highest damage overall but I'm guessing battle Master fighter for at least 5 lvs would be the most constant just due to volume of attacks and rider dice.

Assuming level 5 zealot Barbarian Base

Level 1 rogue is better than the level 1 fighter for offense (since I already picked up dueling style)
Level 2 rogue needs 6 rounds of attacks per short rest to equal action surge
Level 3 rogue needs 8 rounds of attack per short rest to best a mix precision attack, riposte and trip attack
Level 4 there's no significant changes

But even one round where cunning action: dash makes a difference in attacking or not attacking a turn places things significantly back in the rogues favor.

Vengeance Paladin would have some Nova power and rouges could leverage sneak attack and BB for good numbers all day of they can generate advantage.

I'd considered the Vengeance paladin but ruled it out. I'm just not seeing how it keeps up with the Barbarian or Fighter.

Swashbuckler Rogues solve the advantage problem for any classes that don't get advantage. Since rogue sublcasses add very little toward damage it's a solid pick if you want to go rogue but lack reliable advantage.

However, the true value of advantage is that it vastly improves your DPR in the general sense.

Speaking of advantage an odd sword n board build for tier 1-2 is a battle Smith using revolving advantage and a high base attack value to pump out damage. It's a little funky but you can ready action a BB and have your SD help/grapple/shove a target with that as the trigger. If you already have advantage you can just decide to BB or use standard attack option and still have the SDs action to play with.

I'm not grasping how the proposed Battle Smith is working?

Does it have to be sword and shield, or weapon and shield?

Because utilizing Polearm Master, a shield, and a spear or quarterstaff works to give yourself both a shield and a bonus action attack.

No it doesn't have to be sword and shield. It can be a shield and anything but spears and quarterstaffs. I think everyone knows about PAM. The whole point of specifying sword and shield was to intentionally rule that out.

da newt

2021-10-02, 08:19 AM

Shield Master might be handy for a DPR bump if you can BA prone before attacking and works best w/ Barbs, and if you plan to MC fighter it's a much better use of your feat than grabbing a FS you can get for free w/ a 1 lvl dip.

Pali can smite while raging, but fighter 3 for BM moves/action surge and then Rogue for SA is probably more consistent damage.

Flame Tongue is probably your biggest damage bump magic item for the 'price.'

The aesthetic is wrong, but PAM and shield is more damage.

Maybe a 1 lvl dip to ranger for favored foe? 1 lvl of Monk for a BA head butt or kick to the Jimmie every round (you don't need a free hand to unarmed strike)?

Tasha's Custom Lineage might be a better pick than V human.

stoutstien

2021-10-02, 08:39 AM

The battle Smith is leveraging ready action and the utility of the steel defender to generate advantage via prone or help. It addresses the issue of Mobility with either a returning weapon and/or long duration movement buffs or CC spells.
The zealot rouge will out damage the BS unless they run out of rages or the party can trigger the rider damage of BB every 3rd use. The battlesmith overall is a better comparison to one of the more constant damage option where the barbarian is a hybrid nova one.

Speaking of hybrid what about a straight hexblade/pact of the blade? Eldritch smite, hex, advantage generation, and flat damage per hit would make it a contender.

JellyPooga

2021-10-02, 08:40 AM

Assuming level 5 zealot Barbarian Base

Level 1 rogue is better than the level 1 fighter for offense (since I already picked up dueling style)
Level 2 rogue needs 6 rounds of attacks per short rest to equal action surge
Level 3 rogue needs 8 rounds of attack per short rest to best a mix precision attack, riposte and trip attack
Level 4 there's no significant changes

But even one round where cunning action: dash makes a difference in attacking or not attacking a turn places things significantly back in the rogues favor.

The bolded text is written in a way that appears to favour the Fighter, but when you put it into context even 8 rounds of attacks is something you can probably expect to be performing between short rests on a regular adventuring day, even if you're playing a 5-minute adventuring day (where typically combats are harder and longer). It is balanced somewhat by the nova potential; a dead foe you put down in a single round is better than one that takes multiple rounds to take down; but it's also worth considering that Action Surge doesn't offer additional movement with its additional damage output, meaning that some of its potential could easily be wasted if you're unable to reach your enemies.

The Zealot Barbarian has a fairly compelling incentive to focus on single, big-damage attacks with Divine Fury only applying 1/turn and the Rogue offers additional damage to that single hit as well as the opportunity (through mobility) to put those attacks where they're needed most. Additionally, Rogue opens up non-attack options like Grappling and Shoves (with Expertise in Athletics) that dove-tails nicely with Barbarians' Advantage on Strength ability checks. If you do take Shield Master, you double down on this benefit with Shove as a bonus action (when you attack). There's a heap of synergy between Barbarian and Rogue, from the above mentioned to Uncanny Dodge stacking with Barbarian Rage Resistance. I would seriously consider Rogue over Fighter; Fighter offers the shorter term burst damage options you mention, but Rogue offers more consistent damage, mobility, versatility and (IMO) greater synergy.

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 08:50 AM

Shield Master might be handy for a DPR bump if you can BA prone before attacking and works best w/ Barbs, and if you plan to MC fighter it's a much better use of your feat than grabbing a FS you can get for free w/ a 1 lvl dip.

Shield Master is an interesting one. It's one I usually disregard because of the craziness of rulings surrounding it. But it's at least something to consider.

Pali can smite while raging, but fighter 3 for BM moves/action surge and then Rogue for SA is probably more consistent damage.

Divine Smite is pretty lackluster unless staying mostly paladin or multiclassing into another caster.

Flame Tongue is probably your biggest damage bump magic item for the 'price.'

Agreed, and it's a huge damage boost. I guess magic items are worth considering to some degree. They do improve the Fighter's position somewhat. So if rogue and Fighter are close without magic weapons then fighter is probably quite a bit better with them.

The aesthetic is wrong, but PAM and shield is more damage.

That's the general consensus. However, I'd add the caveat that depending on magic weapon generation - you may actually be quite a bit better off not locking yourself into needing a spear or quarterstaff. In fact, an interesting test would be how much better of a magic weapon you would need before your better off not using PAM.

Maybe a 1 lvl dip to ranger for favored foe? 1 lvl of Monk for a BA head butt or kick to the Jimmie every round (you don't need a free hand to unarmed strike)?

Unfortunately you must not be wearing armor or a shield for the monk bonus action attack. I don't tend to rely on abilities like favored foe that only target 1 enemy until they die for damage. Those tend to be some pretty situational damage gains.

The bolded text is written in a way that appears to favour the Fighter,

I don't think it was.

but when you put it into context even 8 rounds of attacks is something you can probably expect to be performing between short rests on a regular adventuring day,

IMO that context seemed too trivial to mention.

even if you're playing a 5-minute adventuring day (where typically combats are harder and longer). It is balanced somewhat by the nova potential;

A very good point! When damage is nearly the same then Nova potential is a great tiebreaker.

a dead foe you put down in a single round is better than one that takes multiple rounds to take down; but it's also worth considering that Action Surge doesn't offer additional movement with its additional damage output, meaning that some of its potential could easily be wasted if you're unable to reach your enemies.

Yep. Cunning Action for the extra movement is a game changer. It also makes a good tiebreaker.

What makes the decision so hard is that the tiebreakers are giving us different answers.

The Zealot Barbarian has a fairly compelling incentive to focus on single, big-damage attacks with Divine Fury only applying 1/turn and the Rogue offers additional damage to that single hit as well as the opportunity (through mobility) to put those attacks where they're needed most. Additionally, Rogue opens up non-attack options like Grappling and Shoves (with Expertise in Athletics) that dove-tails nicely with Barbarians' Advantage on Strength ability checks. If you do take Shield Master, you double down on this benefit with Shove as a bonus action (when you attack). There's a heap of synergy between Barbarian and Rogue, from the above mentioned to Uncanny Dodge stacking with Barbarian Rage Resistance. I would seriously consider Rogue over Fighter; Fighter offers the shorter term burst damage options you mention, but Rogue offers more consistent damage, mobility, versatility and (IMO) greater synergy.

One of my favorite characters is a Barbarian Rogue. But I'm specifically wanting to focus on shields and mine never used a shield (TWF or 1 weapon and grapple was how he went).

RogueJK

2021-10-02, 09:04 AM

I'd considered the Vengeance paladin but ruled it out. I'm just not seeing how it keeps up with the Barbarian or Fighter.

Divine Smite + Hunter's Mark + Vow of Emnity for more hits/more crits.

Extra Attack is a wash among all 3 options. Rage Damage/Dueling Fighting style is a wash until potentially very late Tier 2. (Fighters/Paladins can get Dueling fighting style, and Dueling's damage bonus equals the Rage damage bonus until Barbarian 9 when Rage noses ahead by 1. But you can't run out of Dueling uses over the course of a long day like you can with Rage.)

You can potentially do even a bit better with multiclassing. Like a Hexblade 1/Vengeance Paladin X utilizing Elven Accuracy + Vow of Emnity to fish for Critical Smites. Or a Paladin 6/Sorcerer X could have additional higher level Smites in later Tier 2.

It will be partly driven by the number of combats and short rests per day. Fighter is ahead in a game where short rests are common, but long rests are less common. Fighter's Action Surge resets on short rest, but Barbarian's Rage and Paladin's spell/smite slots only reset on long rests.

strangebloke

2021-10-02, 09:11 AM

Soulknife 15, bm fighter 5. Grab
Thrown and Dueling styles for +4 for all damage. Grab sentinel feat for sneak attack on OA. (or action surge to ready an attack next turn) use steady aim with EA to get advantage on the first attack.

You'll basically never miss thanks to homing strikes, advantage, and precision attack. You'll very frequently get a reaction attack*. You'll have +4 on every attack.

A pretty common turn will be something like

(1d6+5+4+8d6)+(1d6+5+4+1d8)+(1d6+5+2+8d6)=96 damage

There's a 15% crit chance on the first attack which adds a further ~9 damage if you use your superiority die there.

I don't know if this is the highest but it's pretty darn high

RogueJK

2021-10-02, 09:12 AM

Soulknife 15, bm fighter 5.

Level 20 is Tier 1 and 2? :smallwink:

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 09:18 AM

Divine Smite + Hunter's Mark + Vow of Emnity + Dueling Fighting Style (which Barbarians don't get, but Fighters do)

3 issues

Vow of enmity is only against 1 enemy per short rest - that greatly limits it's impact on damage
Hunter's Mark and Vow of enmity are both competing bonus actions
Dueling Fighting Style is open to Barbarians via a feat

You can potentially do even a bit better with multiclassing. Like a Hexblade 1/Vengeance Paladin X utilizing Elven Accuracy + Vow of Emnity to fish for Critical Smites.

Sure, but how many rounds per short rest do you expect this combo to last? I'd say 2 per short rest. If your lucky then 3 per short rest.

Or a Paladin 6/Sorcerer X could have additional higher level Smites in later Tier 2.

Sure, but such a character is crap damage in tier 1. And doesn't really pick up in damage till late tier 2. 1 encounter adventuring days are the only place the paladin is competing in damage with the mentioned Barbarian.

strangebloke

2021-10-02, 09:30 AM

Level 20 is Tier 1 and 2? :smallwink:
Oh derp.

Well I'd have to think about it more but you can still get all the things that make this work, just not all of them at the same time. My guess is that you'd either end tier 2 with fighter 6/ rogue 4 as a vhuman. Not much SA and no EA and no homing strikes but otherwise the same as above

(1d6+5+4+2d6)+(1d6+5+4+1d8)+(1d6+5+2+2d6)=54

Obviously can't do this every turn but it's still much higher than a paladin on a resourceless turn and will have resources to spend on more turns on average.

Edit: fixed some math. Also forgot to mention riposte and brace, which basically allow you to double up on SA every single turn. ALSO forgot that soulknife is weird about not working on OAs, but I think everyone house rules that

RogueJK

2021-10-02, 09:32 AM

Sure, but such a character is crap damage in tier 1. And doesn't really pick up in damage till late tier 2. 1 encounter adventuring days are the only place the paladin is competing in damage with the mentioned Barbarian.

I'm not sure where this is coming from. Paladins are far from "crap damage" in Tier 1. At a base level, they're equivalent to a Raging barbarian or a Fighter. 1d8+STRMOD+2 damage on a standard attack. Plus, in Tier 1 a Barbarian can only rage 2x-3x per day. So they're not always going to have the Rage damage bonus. A resourceless Paladin/Fighter with Dueling outclasses a resourceless Barbarian by +2 damage on their standard attacks.

From there, like Barbarians and Fighters, Paladins have other ways through spells and smites to boost damage. In Tier 1, Hunter's Mark gets you +1d6 damage to a hit and is usable over the long term, while Divine Smite gets you up to another +3d8 to a hit for short term nova.

Zealot Barbarian gets +1d6+2 to a hit per turn in Tier 1, but only during one of their 2-3 rages that day. A bit more than Hunter's Mark when you only have 1 attack per round, but not dramatically so, and a Paladin could have Hunter's Mark running in more combats per day than a Barbarian has rages. Something like a Battlemaster Fighter gets the chance to add +1d8 by burning a Maneuver Dice, but it's half the damage of a Smite and is also a limited resource like Smite, although Maneuver Dice refresh on a short rest so you can use them more often than Smites during a day. Action Surge is certainly powerful, doubling your number of attacks, but another +1d8+STRMOD+2 damage is still roughly equivalent to a +2d8 Smite.

So I'm not seeing what would lead you to claim that Barbarians/Fighters are amazing while Paladin's are "crap". In some situations one could be slightly ahead, whereas another will be slightly ahead in other situations, but there's no massive difference here.

In fact, of the three, the Zealot Barbarian seems to be at the lower end of the damage range, since they don't have any way to burn resources to spike their short term damage like Smites or Maneuver Dice or Action Surge, and can only rage in two or three combats per long rest. A Barbarian's Rage uses will run out before a Paladin's Hunter's Mark or especially a Fighter's Maneuver Dice. So they're able to keep up with the damage output of the Fighters/Paladins in a few combats per day, but once they run out of rages they'll lag greatly behind Paladins/Fighters while those classes still have those additional resources to burn, and still lag slightly behind Paladins/Fighters when all three have exhausted their resources.

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 09:33 AM

Oh derp.

Well I'd have to think about it more but you can still get all the things that make this work, just not all of them at the same time. My guess is that you'd either end tier 2 with fighter 6/ rogue 4 as a vhuman. Not much SA and no EA and no homing strikes but otherwise the same as above

(1d6+5+4+2d6)+(1d6+5+4+1d8)+(1d6+5+4+2d6)=56

Obviously can't do this every turn but it's still much higher than a paladin on a resourceless turn and will have resources to spend on more turns on average.

How many turns can you achieve at or near that damage? What is your damage when your resources run out?

strangebloke

2021-10-02, 09:42 AM

How many turns can you achieve at or near that damage? What is your damage when your resources run out?

Once per sr with action surge + 4 times per sr with riposte/brace + however many times sentinel gets you an OA + all normal OAs. So five times per SR with resources and some number without. I'd say 1/2 or 1/3 of all rounds. Sentinel OA and normal OAs deal 4.5 less damage.

Without any OA you still deal

(1d6+5+4+2d6)+(1d6+5+4)=32

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 09:43 AM

I'm not sure where this is coming from. Paladins are far from "crap damage" in Tier 1. At a base level, they're equivalent to a Raging barbarian or a Fighter. 1d8+STRMOD+2 damage on a standard attack. Plus, in Tier 1 a Barbarian can only rage twice per day. So they're not always going to have the Rage damage bonus. A resourceless Paladin/Fighter outclasses a resourceless Barbarian.

A Variant Human Barbarian at level 1 does 1d8+STRMOD+4 damage on a standard attack. He does 1d8+STRMOD+6 on a raging attack. At level 2 he can reckless attack for advantage. At level 3 he can take zealot subclass and gain an additional 1d6+1 damage per turn (as long as one attack hits). *Advantage typically adds somewhere between 30% to 70% DPR.

Then, like Barbarians and Fighters, they have other ways through spells and smites to boost damage. In Tier 1, Hunter's Mark gets you +1d6 damage to a hit and is usable over a longer term, while Divine Smite gets you up to another +3d8 to a hit (for short term nova)

Hunters mark has severe concentration issues in tier 1.

Zealot Barbarian gets +1d6+2 to a hit per turn in Tier 1, but only during one of their 2 rages that day.

Barbarians get 3 rages starting at level 3.

A bit more than Hunter's Mark when you only have 1 attack per round, but not dramatically so. Something like a Battlemaster gets the chance to add +1d8 by burning a Maneuver Dice, but it's less damage than Smite and also a limited resource like Smite. Action Surge is certainly powerful, doubling your number of attacks, but +1d8+STRMOD+2 damage is still roughly equivalent to a Smite.

So I'm not seeing some dramatic difference here that would render Barbarians/Fighters "amazing" while Paladin's are "crap". All have similar damage, even while burning their respective limited resources. And Paladins have the chance to outdamage them using Smites, especially if they save them for Critical Smites.

Compute their DPR over any kind of adventuring day (make sure to take into account the chance for concentration loss on hunters mark as well). You'll quickly realize what I'm talking about.

RogueJK

2021-10-02, 09:46 AM

A Variant Human Barbarian at level 1 does 1d8+STRMOD+4 damage on a standard attack. He does 1d8+STRMOD+6 on a raging attack.

Where's that extra +4 coming from?

1d8 longsword
+STRMOD
+4 ???
+2 rage damage bonus (while raging in two combats per long rest)

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 09:56 AM

Where's that extra +4 coming from?

1d8 longsword
+STRMOD
+4 ???
+2 rage damage bonus (while raging in two combats per long rest)

Variant Human: Fighting Initiate - Dueling

RogueJK

2021-10-02, 09:58 AM

Grabbing Dueling Fighting Style using that feat gives you +2 damage, not +4.

So that'd be 1d8+STRMOD+2 on a standard attack, and 1d8+STRMOD+4 while Raging. Not +4/+6.

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 09:59 AM

Grabbing Dueling Fighting Style using that feat gives you +2 damage, not +4.

So that'd be 1d8+STRMOD+2 on a standard attack, and 1d8+STRMOD+4 while Raging.

This is correct.

strangebloke

2021-10-02, 09:59 AM

Variant Human: Fighting Initiate - Dueling

that's two not four

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 10:05 AM

that's two not four

That is correct.

Quietus

2021-10-02, 10:40 AM

A few options I'd look at - I'm just going to assume a longsword/rapier as appropriate, but any one handed weapon will be fine. All of these should be perfectly effective through tier 1, so I'm specifically looking at what they'd do at level 5.

Worth noting that aside from the Monk, none of these are really using crazy tricks or anything, and are mostly just using in-class functions. The monk is a little more complex, and the barbarian's being a bit weird using GWM for its bonus action attack feature rather than its power attack, but I don't think that's a stretch.

Vengeance Paladin. Dueling fighting style, and lean into Hunter's Mark. Assuming you get 18 str at level 4, then you're going into tier2 with 2 attacks, each doing 1d8+1d6+2+4, or 28 damage if both hit. This does not account for smites, or the fact that at the end of tier2 you'll get Haste.
Zealot barbarian. Vhuman to get dueling fighting style at level 1, great weapon master at 4. You can't use the -5/+10 option, but for three combats per day (soon to be four), while raging, you do 1d8+3+2+2, and one of those will do an additional 1d6+2 (which will scale with more levels). That's 28.5, and if you manage to kill something or land a crit, you get an additional 11.5 on top from your bonus action attack.
Beastmaster ranger. With a Tasha's Beast of the Land, you have a reliable bonus action attack. Assuming you raise your str/dex to 18 at level 4, with dueling style, you personally do 1d8+2+4 per attack, and if you have 16 Wis (this is a MAD build), your pet does 1d8+2+3(proficiency). That works out to 30.5 reliable damage, and doesn't account for Favored Foe adding 1d4/turn, available 3 times per long rest, and also doesn't account for the beast's charge attack, which has a trip effect and a bonus d6 of damage. Hunter's Mark will hurt your DPS unless you're attacking the same target for 3 or more turns, by the way.
Vhuman monk, any subclass. Take dueling style via feat (monks have shortsword proficiency to qualify). This is more "sword and empty hand", but raising dex to 18 at level 4, with a monk weapon, you're doing 1d6+2+4 on your basic attacks, and 1d6+4 with your bonus action unarmed strike. If you pop a ki to flurry of blows, that's 34 damage.
- If you can get a flametongue, then go Kensei subclass. Now your basic attacks are 1d8+2+4+2d6 fire. With Tasha's features you can designate the flametongue a monk weapon at level 2 (dedicated weapon), make a bonus action attack with the flametongue any round you spend ki (Ki-Fueled Attack, level 3), and bump your attack bonus if you do happen to miss (focused aim, level 5). Between stunning fist and focused aim, you'll be able to spend one ki point every round, for five rounds per short rest. You make three basic attacks per round, for 53.5 damage. However, this has the distinct advantage of using a very specific magic item, while none of the other suggested builds do.

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 10:44 AM

Once per sr with action surge + 4 times per sr with riposte/brace + however many times sentinel gets you an OA + all normal OAs. So five times per SR with resources and some number without. I'd say 1/2 or 1/3 of all rounds. Sentinel OA and normal OAs deal 4.5 less damage.

Without any OA you still deal

(1d6+5+4+2d6)+(1d6+5+4)=32

I'm not following where those numbers are coming from.

I think: 1d6 is Shortsword. 2d6 is sneak attack. 5 is mod. Not sure about the +4's?

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 10:50 AM

Quietus

2021-10-02, 11:06 AM

Out of those, there's only 1 that gets reliable advantage. That makes a big difference - especially when the numbers you are citing are all so close without including advantage.

I also think I may be selling a battlemaster short, between brace, riposte and precision attack his manuevers pack alot of punch. He can also get some damage boost from variant human: martial adept for an extra maneuver dice early.

Vengeance Paladin can point at one thing and declare advantage.

The barbarian, I assume, is the one you point out as having reliable advantage.

The ranger can cast Faerie Fire, OR, you could be a kobold and ride your beast for permanent pack tactics.

Monk I'll give you, unless you're using the flametongue variant. Using Focused Aim makes up for some of the lack of advantage, and Stunning Strike can provide you with advantage.

strangebloke

2021-10-02, 11:09 AM

I'm not following where those numbers are coming from.

I think: 1d6 is Shortsword. 2d6 is sneak attack. 5 is mod. Not sure about the +4's?

throwing + dueling style.

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 11:21 AM

Vengeance Paladin can point at one thing and declare advantage.

Sure. But that's not what I call reliable. It means you'll have advantage on very few of your turns overall. It also means you'll be giving up cast hunter's mark that turn due to competing bonus actions.

The barbarian, I assume, is the one you point out as having reliable advantage.

Yes. Anytime he want's it he's got it.

The ranger can cast Faerie Fire, OR, you could be a kobold and ride your beast for permanent pack tactics.

Faerie fire is terrible here. It costs your whole action and isn't even guaranteed to hit the thing you want to attack. You'll tank your DPR fast trying to use it.

The kobold is a better option. But sunlight sensitivity means that your advantage will often be canceled out with disadvantage. That makes kobolds a very campaign dependent choice.

Monk I'll give you, unless you're using the flametongue variant. Using Focused Aim makes up for some of the lack of advantage, and Stunning Strike can provide you with advantage.

Getting a flametongue isn't a reliable endeavor. Stunning strike can easily fail to land - and it's not like you've got the ki to keep stunning strike going through the adventuring day. And if you do it means your not using flurry of blows. But also, monks don't get shields and I want a shield!

Eldariel

2021-10-02, 11:40 AM

Faerie fire is terrible here. It costs your whole action and isn't even guaranteed to hit the thing you want to attack. You'll tank your DPR fast trying to use it.

It's probably not all that unlikely that you won't always be able to take attacks on the first round of combat anyways due to starting distance. In those cases, your first action is quite low value; the competing options are Hide (advantage on one attack if you have something to hide behind), Dodge (useful for a high AC type but only works if you're the only lucrative target available) & Dash (useful if enemy is trying to avoid melee but often not necessary since most enemy statblocks are mostly melee-based). Further, it's worth noting the auxiliary benefit of the whole party getting the advantage and potential invisible enemies being not-disadvantageous to attack. It's only 60' but that's double move on the first round: you can cast it at a target up to 90' away whereas your melee attack is limited to a target within 30' (plus you can of course ready it in case the enemy is melee too and likely closes in next round).

strangebloke

2021-10-02, 11:52 AM

It's probably not all that unlikely that you won't always be able to take attacks on the first round of combat anyways due to starting distance. In those cases, your first action is quite low value; the competing options are Hide (advantage on one attack if you have something to hide behind), Dodge (useful for a high AC type but only works if you're the only lucrative target available) & Dash (useful if enemy is trying to avoid melee but often not necessary since most enemy statblocks are mostly melee-based). Further, it's worth noting the auxiliary benefit of the whole party getting the advantage and potential invisible enemies being not-disadvantageous to attack. It's only 60' but that's double move on the first round: you can cast it at a target up to 90' away whereas your melee attack is limited to a target within 30' (plus you can of course ready it in case the enemy is melee too and likely closes in next round).

If you can't get into combat on the first turn that's kind of going to impact your average dpr over the day

stoutstien

2021-10-02, 11:52 AM

I think saying a barbarian multiclass can have advantage anytime they "want it"compared to any time they can "afford it" is an important distinction. It is called reckless attack for a reason.

I do think SnB works wonders with barbarian thanks to the way resistance,. Higher AC, Higher HP, and static damage bonuses work together to end up with a well balanced kit. Add on shield master and you can reckless cheaper as well.

I also don't think it's worth taking V human just for +2 per attack before extra attack is online. As a style pick it's fine but at the opportunity cost of a feat I'd wait until at least 2 attacks. If Tasha's custom origins are in play you could have an 18 + whatever half feat you want. Piercer's math is funky but with so many dice going around it's going be a better upgrade than duelist let alone having +1 modifier on top if that. I wouldn't touch duelist as a feat until str is maxed.

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 11:54 AM

It's probably not all that unlikely that you won't always be able to take attacks on the first round of combat anyways due to starting distance.

In terms of your DPR, Hunter's Mark + Throw a weapon would seem the better bet.

In those cases, your first action is quite low value; the competing options are Hide (advantage on one attack if you have something to hide behind), Dodge (useful for a high AC type but only works if you're the only lucrative target available) & Dash (useful if enemy is trying to avoid melee but often not necessary since most enemy statblocks are mostly melee-based).

That's not quite true. There's plenty of other valuable actions. I named one above. There's also the possibility you are riding your beast which increases your potential speed alot.

Further, it's worth noting the auxiliary benefit of the whole party getting the advantage

In general sure, but not for this exercise. I want my damage to be high.

and potential invisible enemies being not-disadvantageous to attack. It's only 60' but that's double move on the first round: you can cast it at a target up to 90' away whereas your melee attack is limited to a target within 30' (plus you can of course ready it in case the enemy is melee too and likely closes in next round).

The one time to use Faerie Fire if there ever was one is against invisible enemies.

I think saying a barbarian multiclass can have advantage anytime they "want it"compared to any time they can "afford it" is an important distinction. It is called reckless attack for a reason.

Reckless Attacking Barbarians with a shield don't tend to be significantly squishier than many other front line characters.

I do think SnB works wonders with barbarian thanks to the way resistance,. Higher AC, Higher HP, and static damage bonuses work together to end up with a well balanced kit. Add on shield master and you can reckless cheaper as well.

I think you need to commit to reckless attack before shield master bonus attack (just 1 more issue with consistency of rulings with it and why I tend to avoid it at all costs - or assume the least useful option in these kinds of discussions).

I also don't think it's worth taking V human just for +2 per attack before extra attack is online. As a style pick it's fine but at the opportunity cost of a feat I'd wait until at least 2 attacks. If Tasha's custom origins are in play you could have an 18 + whatever half feat you want. Piercer's math is funky but with so many dice going around it's going be a better upgrade than duelist let alone having +1 modifier on top if that. I wouldn't touch duelist as a feat until str is maxed.

I do. With reckless attack it's like +1.68 DPR (with reckless attack) - which in tier 1 is alot!

If Tasha's origins were in play I would agree, but they are also something so inconsistently in play that I also avoid them in these discussions. We also don't use them in our games.

Quietus

2021-10-02, 12:03 PM

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 12:08 PM

I don't understand what you're looking for. Builds have been provided that have high damage, and you're rejecting them for not having on-demand advantage. No class, aside from Barbarian, will have on-demand advantage... and as noted, reckless attack is reckless.

Retract that please as my argument was "the builds you posted all have about the same listed DPR but only one of those gets advantage reliably. The implication being that it will have significantly higher damage once that is accounted for without the need to set down and do all the accuracy math"

If you had listed a build with significantly more damage without advantage then that would have changed the response significantly.

Have any of the builds you've been offered here piqued your interest at all? Can you narrow this down in any way? Because at this point, it really just feels like you're trying to "win" D&D, without telling us exactly what you are scoring it on.

Highest Damage Sword and Shield Character in tier 1/2. That detail is in the thread name :smallwink:

The only one so far that sounds promising is Battlemaster/Soul Knife. Though I'm a bit iffy on it's precise interactions. As it's using thrown weapons but also heavily relies on reaction melee attacks.

I don't think anyone suggested it but battlemaster 5/Rouge 5 may be worthwhile to consider as well.

Likewise I need to take a look at Fighter 5 /Warlock 2+ /Whatever.

Quietus

2021-10-02, 12:14 PM

I will not retract that. Note that while Barbarian has the on-demand advantage, its damage is also the most limited of the builds offered, due to being used only while in rage, which you have 3/LR. That's your tradeoff. Only you can tell how often your group has days short/long enough to be affected by that rest limitation.

The point is, there's only so much you can do to push damage beyond that point. All of these builds have tradeoffs - they're in the same range, but Paladin is at the bottom prior to accounting for smites, Barbarian potentially at the top (if it triggers the bonus action attack) only for three fights a day, and the ranger can Do This All Day.

RogueJK

2021-10-02, 12:18 PM

Retract that please as my argument was "the builds you posted all have about the same listed DPR

Except Paladins, which apparently have "crap damage". :smalltongue:

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 12:22 PM

Except Paladins, which apparently have "crap damage". :smalltongue:

Compared to the other options in tier 1 and 2 they do (except in extremely short adventuring days). Also more importantly - he didn't post a Paladin build. *Note this was incorrect.

I will not retract that. Note that while Barbarian has the on-demand advantage, its damage is also the most limited of the builds offered, due to being used only while in rage, which you have 3/LR. That's your tradeoff. Only you can tell how often your group has days short/long enough to be affected by that rest limitation.

The point is, there's only so much you can do to push damage beyond that point. All of these builds have tradeoffs - they're in the same range, but Paladin is at the bottom prior to accounting for smites, Barbarian potentially at the top (if it triggers the bonus action attack) only for three fights a day, and the ranger can Do This All Day.

But now you are changing your claim. Which may very well be a valid - but it certainly isn't the same claim that I asked you to retract.

stoutstien

2021-10-02, 12:38 PM

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 12:46 PM

Piercer still out preforms duelist before extra attack comes online and continues to scale with adding dice with sneak attack. I actually think with the barbarian/rouge mix it stays ahead due to the 2 attack cap.

My calculations still put dueling style just slightly ahead.

*Assuming both are picked up from variant human.

Eldariel

2021-10-02, 01:04 PM

In terms of your DPR, Hunter's Mark + Throw a weapon would seem the better bet.

True, this is often better (though at 35'-60' range the thrown weapon would have disadvantage and you'd have to use your action to draw it). I assumed you didn't want thrown weapons since you're going sword & board specifically, and sword is not a throwable weapon.

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 01:11 PM

True, this is often better (though at 35'-60' range the thrown weapon would have disadvantage and you'd have to use your action to draw it).

Object interactions to draw a weapon is a free action. Just don't start combats holding your sword. Unsheathe it on your first turn if in melee range, if not then draw a javelin and throw. That allows you to attack something out to a range of 60ft from your starting location without disadvantage. If they aren't in range then cast hunter's mark and ready an action to throw the javelin once something gets in range. (Should cover 90-100ft distance coverable or 120-140ft if the enemy dashes - assuming the enemy is coming to meet you in melee).

I assumed you didn't want thrown weapons since you're going sword & board specifically, and sword is not a throwable weapon.

Thrown weapons are the only reliable option a melee shield character has at range. They aren't your primary weapon for fighting but you always keep a few of them just in case.

Eldariel

2021-10-02, 01:34 PM

Thrown weapons are the only reliable option a melee shield character has at range. They aren't your primary weapon for fighting but you always keep a few of them just in case.

Indeed. I was just under the impression that you only wanted sword & board. Thrown weapons in the mix do add a few interesting options (Quick Toss Nets to generate advantage as a Battlemaster, dipping for Thrown style and doing some gladiator kiting at medium range before closing in, etc.), though I'm still unclear as to how much you wish to lean on the sword vs. everything else.

strangebloke

2021-10-02, 02:09 PM

Indeed. I was just under the impression that you only wanted sword & board. Thrown weapons in the mix do add a few interesting options (Quick Toss Nets to generate advantage as a Battlemaster, dipping for Thrown style and doing some gladiator kiting at medium range before closing in, etc.), though I'm still unclear as to how much you wish to lean on the sword vs. everything else.

also soulknife makes things confusing because its a thrown weapon that's repeatable.

But I'm pretty sure that the answer to this question is some kind of BM Rogue using brace and riposte to get extra sneak attacks, regardless of whether the specific soulknife cheese I posted is allowed. Something as basic as BM 5/Rogue 5 with rapier and shield with no race or sublcass benefit can get

(1d8+5+2+3d6)+(1d8+5+2)+(1d8+5+2+3d6+1d8)=60

5 times between short rests, and that's if they even need to use brace/riposte to get an OA, which they often won't. Even if they don't get the OA, their damage

(1d8+5+2+3d6)+(1d8+5+2)=33.5

Is still going to be better than pretty much all resourceless contenders, barring, IDK, reckless attack, a very high-ac opponent and a PAM barbarian?. Rulings that help other builds, like allowing shield master as a BA before the main attack, help this build even more because it has expertise and doesn't have any other use for its BA unless its dashing to get into melee or something. (and being able to dash into melee is a strength of this build.) This build also is better at using thrown weapons without losing (much) damage relative to most other options.

EDIT: Hexblade 5/ Devotion Pally 5 using the CD before combat is the other thing I'd look at.

EDIT EDIT: Also some kind of stupid dart sharpshooter build.

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 02:47 PM

also soulknife makes things confusing because its a thrown weapon that's repeatable.

But I'm pretty sure that the answer to this question is some kind of BM Rogue using brace and riposte to get extra sneak attacks, regardless of whether the specific soulknife cheese I posted is allowed. Something as basic as BM 5/Rogue 5 with rapier and shield with no race or sublcass benefit can get

(1d8+5+2+3d6)+(1d8+5+2)+(1d8+5+2+3d6+1d8)=60

A Zealot Barbarian 5 / Rogue 5 would do

(1d8+5+2+2+3d6+[1d6+2]) + (1d8+5+2+2) = 43 with advantage.

Those numbers seem comparable to me.

(1d8+5+2+3d6)+(1d8+5+2)=33.5

A Zealot Barbarian 5/ Rogue 5 would do

(1d8+5+2+3d6) + (1d8+5+2) = 33.5 with advantage (or maybe not if deemed to dangerous without rage up)

Is still going to be better than pretty much all resourceless contenders, barring, IDK, reckless attack, a very high-ac opponent and a PAM barbarian?. Rulings that help other builds, like allowing shield master as a BA before the main attack, help this build even more because it has expertise and doesn't have any other use for its BA unless its dashing to get into melee or something. (and being able to dash into melee is a strength of this build.) This build also is better at using thrown weapons without losing (much) damage relative to most other options.

The 2 builds look pretty similar to me. Enough that it's going to be situational which one is better. Another question to ask in that is which has the stronger progression - as in which is doing more damage as you level up toward level 10? I'm fairly certain the answer there is the Barbarian/Rogue maintains a better damage progression.

EDIT: Hexblade 5/ Devotion Pally 5 using the CD before combat is the other thing I'd look at.

Good call on prebuff builds

EDIT EDIT: Also some kind of stupid dart sharpshooter build.

That would work well. But it's a bit outside the spirit of what I'm looking for.

Unoriginal

2021-10-02, 02:52 PM

No it doesn't have to be sword and shield. It can be a shield and anything but spears and quarterstaffs.

Beast Barbarian 5 with shield and claws, using Reckless Attacker?

3 attacks with advantage are nothing to scoff at, at lvl 5.

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 03:06 PM

Beast Barbarian 5 with shield and claws, using Reckless Attacker?

3 attacks with advantage are nothing to scoff at, at lvl 5.

Yes. That's really cool. I guess the most pressing question there is, does the dueling fighting style work with those claws?

Hael

2021-10-02, 03:44 PM

I havent ran the numbers, but i suspect a gloomstalker ranger ought to be up there in darkness in tier 1 at least. At least assuming a 3-4 round combat duration.

strangebloke

2021-10-02, 03:54 PM

A Zealot Barbarian 5 / Rogue 5 would do

(1d8+5+2+2+3d6+[1d6+2]) + (1d8+5+2+2) = 43 with advantage.

Those numbers seem comparable to me.

A Zealot Barbarian 5/ Rogue 5 would do

(1d8+5+2+3d6) + (1d8+5+2) = 33.5 with advantage (or maybe not if deemed to dangerous without rage up)

The 2 builds look pretty similar to me. Enough that it's going to be situational which one is better. Another question to ask in that is which has the stronger progression - as in which is doing more damage as you level up toward level 10? I'm fairly certain the answer there is the Barbarian/Rogue maintains a better damage progression.

Depends on the AC of the target at this level, though I'd argue within reasonable parameters advantage isn't enough to make up the difference here. I'd further argue that the BM is going to have superiority dice more often than the Barbarian has rage.

as for scaling, nah, BM rogue is definitely better. Accuracy becomes less important as the game goes on because most enemies cap out at 17-18 AC and accuracy boosters (+1 weapons, stuff like the soulknife's homing blades) becomes more common. Meanwhile the BM rogue is based around getting a second sneak attack, which is the primary scaling damage boost of the rogue.

That would work well. But it's a bit outside the spirit of what I'm looking for.
My contempt for sharpshooter is well known around these parts so I won't disagree.

Ir0ns0ul

2021-10-02, 04:03 PM

vHuman Moderately Armored Rogues using shield & rapier?

strangebloke

2021-10-02, 04:03 PM

I havent ran the numbers, but i suspect a gloomstalker ranger ought to be up there in darkness in tier 1 at least. At least assuming a 3-4 round combat duration.

Make a build and I'll run the numbers for what I would consider a 'normal' adventuring day. Remember, this is S&B.

Quietus

2021-10-02, 04:11 PM

Yes. That's really cool. I guess the most pressing question there is, does the dueling fighting style work with those claws?

Strict RAW, no. The dueling style only applies to a one handed weapon you are wielding, which disqualifies claws. A lenient DM may rule otherwise. I considered suggesting a beast claws barb, but refrained for this very reason.

Unoriginal

2021-10-02, 05:07 PM

I considered suggesting a beast claws barb, but refrained for this very reason.

I mean, it's not like Barbarian 5 has access to Dueling.

Frogreaver

2021-10-02, 06:21 PM

Strict RAW, no. The dueling style only applies to a one handed weapon you are wielding, which disqualifies claws. A lenient DM may rule otherwise. I considered suggesting a beast claws barb, but refrained for this very reason.

The line that made me think possibly otherwise was:

Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, when you enter your rage, you can transform, revealing the bestial power within you. Until the rage ends, you manifest a natural weapon. It counts as a simple melee weapon for you, and you add your Strength modifier to the attack and damage rolls when you attack with it, as normal.

Claws. Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action.

stoutstien

2021-10-02, 06:23 PM

Quietus

2021-10-02, 08:39 PM

The line that made me think possibly otherwise was:

Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, when you enter your rage, you can transform, revealing the bestial power within you. Until the rage ends, you manifest a natural weapon. It counts as a simple melee weapon for you, and you add your Strength modifier to the attack and damage rolls when you attack with it, as normal.

Claws. Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action.

Right, but this is the text of the Dueling style :

When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.

Many people I have seen take this to mean, you must be holding a weapon, and use that weapon. By the strictest RAW, claws are not wielded in one hand, they're wielded on or as one hand. This is the same thought process that denies you the ability to use dual wielding with your claws. In my home game, I'd absolutely allow someone to use the dueling style on their claws, there is nothing about the game that this would break. But expect table variation.

strangebloke

2021-10-02, 09:03 PM

IMO the bigger problem I'd have as a DM is that dueling is clearly meant to be a one-handed style and that with beast claws you have both claws as weapons.

It's also really weird to me that beast barbarian gets to use a shield. Fighting with raw, feral claws... and a shield in one hand just feels hilariously off-brand for me and I don't like it. The shield-and-dart and the shield-and-psi-blade comboes feel less oily.

Thunderous Mojo

2021-10-02, 10:07 PM

Many people I have seen take this to mean, you must be holding a weapon, and use that weapon. By the strictest RAW, claws are not wielded in one hand, they're wielded on or as one hand. This is the same thought process that denies you the ability to use dual wielding with your claws. In my home game, I'd absolutely allow someone to use the dueling style on their claws, there is nothing about the game that this would break. But expect table variation.

"Jack Johnson wielded his right fist like a sledgehammer".....seems to pass the natural language test.

This 'strictest RAW' seems to be in the Eye of the Beholder...(and not the type with eye rays).

I like Path of Beast with Shield Master. A Bonus Action Shove is nice even if you have to Attack first. Emulating a 7th level Rogue at 2nd level is rather nice as well.

If one does stumble onto a Magical Weapon such as a Flame-Tongue, the Tail option from the Path of the Beast is a great option, to use instead of the claws.

I do think an Artificer is worth a gander, if you want to take a different character building route. Returning Weapon can be a lot of fun, and Alchemist's can use melee with GFB.

Quietus

2021-10-02, 10:41 PM

"Jack Johnson wielded his right fist like a sledgehammer".....seems to pass the natural language test.

This 'strictest RAW' seems to be in the Eye of the Beholder...(and not the type with eye rays).

Certainly does! However, you've missed a very important preposition - in.

"Jack Johnson wielded his hammer in his right fist" - Dueling style applies
"Jack Johnson wielded his right fist like a sledgehammer" - Dueling style does not apply.

The reasoning is that Dueling style specifically states, "When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand", so unless you rip off your arm and beat someone to death with the claw, while wielding it in your one remaining good hand, you are not wielding your claws in one hand. I freely admit that this is a very dumb and extraordinarily legalistic distinction, but it is the same distinction that, as noted, prevents one from getting a free attack with a claw and then also attacking with a weapon in your off hand. Also the same as the distinction that some people point to with thrown weapons, when reasoning you cannot apply both Dueling and Throwing fighting styles to the damage.

Thunderous Mojo

2021-10-03, 12:08 AM

Witty Username

2021-10-03, 01:25 AM

Have you considered hexblade with weapon cantrips?

Edit: Ranger with Rapier/Shield would probably be good to, dueling style. Hunter's mark is not great but does damage and you have access to spells like entangle and such. Fey wanderer for additional Psychic damage on attacks.

Hael

2021-10-03, 03:52 AM

AFAICS, this exercise is going to depend the lvl and various other conditions (how long the fight lasts, how many per SR, prebuffs?). A different build will win different lvls as well.

Basically you want one martial to go to 5th lvl for 2 hand attack. Then you have the following interesting splits.
1 hexblade. Curse, hex (takes 2 of your 3 bas)
3 gloomstalker (easy advantage, d8, fighting style, hunter mark)
3 beast master (weaponized ba, hunters mark)
2 barbarian (advantage, zealot gives you a little extra as you lvl)
3 battlemaster (action surge, fighting style, SD).
3 vengeance (smite, advantage)

Something like 5 battlemaster, 3 gloom, 1 hex seems best, but then you start getting into build specifics as you start getting MAD.

Quietus

2021-10-03, 09:35 AM

AFAICS, this exercise is going to depend the lvl and various other conditions (how long the fight lasts, how many per SR, prebuffs?). A different build will win different lvls as well.

Basically you want one martial to go to 5th lvl for 2 hand attack. Then you have the following interesting splits.
1 hexblade. Curse, hex (takes 2 of your 3 bas)
3 gloomstalker (easy advantage, d8, fighting style, hunter mark)
3 beast master (weaponized ba, hunters mark)
2 barbarian (advantage, zealot gives you a little extra as you lvl)
3 battlemaster (action surge, fighting style, SD).
3 vengeance (smite, advantage)

Something like 5 battlemaster, 3 gloom, 1 hex seems best, but then you start getting into build specifics as you start getting MAD.

Just nitpicking, as I mentioned previously, Beastmaster does not want to be using Hunter's Mark. The only time you'd use that is if your beast can't reach the target this particular round, or if you know you'll be attacking it for at least three rounds, probably more. You get more mileage just telling your beast to attack than you get from HM. Beastmaster is one of the best classes for using Favored Foe, because it has no action cost.

Frogreaver

2021-10-03, 09:39 AM

AFAICS, this exercise is going to depend the lvl and various other conditions (how long the fight lasts, how many per SR, prebuffs?). A different build will win different lvls as well.

Sure. I'm fine with their being more than 1 right answer. Just as long as it's well reasoned. For example see some of the issues I have below.

Basically you want one martial to go to 5th lvl for 2 hand attack. Then you have the following interesting splits.

To me the goal of this exercise is really figuring out which classes to take to level 5 and then which split works best with them. Not all classes level 5 offensive capabilities are the same.

1 hexblade. Curse, hex (takes 2 of your 3 bas)

The issue with damage buffs that only effect one enemy like Hexblade's Curse is 'what if the enemy dies'. Seriously, there's a fairly high chance that if you unload on the enemy that has hex and hexblade's curse on it that you only benefit from hexblade's curse 1 or maybe 2 turns before the enemy dies.

That's great for a single class warlock doing something else with his spell slots like using Tasha's summon spells - but not alot of extra damage otherwise.

3 gloomstalker (easy advantage, d8, fighting style, hunter mark)

The problem for the gloom stalkers easy advantage is that it assumes the rest of the party has darkvision. That's not the best assumption to make. Because if you have PC's without darkvision then there's bound to be light sources - especially near the front line melee characters.

The extra attack from gloomstalker and hunter's mark synergizes really well with battlemaster though, so still a very worthy consideration.

3 beast master (weaponized ba, hunters mark)

Multiple bonus actions you have to regularly use really lowers DPR potential.

2 barbarian (advantage, zealot gives you a little extra as you lvl)

The only downside to reckless is that you may not be able to all the time due to hp pool reasons.

3 battlemaster (action surge, fighting style, SD).

The issue with many superiority dice calculations is that they rely on reaction attacks triggered by some event happening that may not happen often enough in the short rest to burn all your superiority dice. I mean a 20 AC Fighter taking 1 attack on average a round is probably only going to be hit 4-8 times in an adventuring day.

3 vengeance (smite, advantage)

Smite adds so little damage without a focus on a caster class. His advantage suffers a similar issue as hexblade's curse does. The enemy is likely to die before you get more than 1-2 rounds of benefit.

Something like 5 battlemaster, 3 gloom, 1 hex seems best, but then you start getting into build specifics as you start getting MAD.

I'm not sure what the hexblade is adding. Battlemaster and gloomstalker is solid though (but i wouldn't count on advantage all that often, but if you are lucky enough to be in an all darkvision party I doubt this can be beat.). I'd probably go up to level 4 gloomstalker for the feat and take a level in war cleric to round it out. Get's to level 2 slots, and adds a few bonus action attacks per day.

Depends on the AC of the target at this level, though I'd argue within reasonable parameters advantage isn't enough to make up the difference here. I'd further argue that the BM is going to have superiority dice more often than the Barbarian has rage.

It's not just about having superiority dace. The high Damage maneuvers all require triggers. Those triggers have to occur enough per short rest or you either get stuck with dice or stuck using less damaging maneuvers. Being missed 4-5 turns per short rest is alot. Especially since rounds between short rests may vary between 3-9 in most cases. Sentinel really helps solve this problem though.

as for scaling, nah, BM rogue is definitely better. Accuracy becomes less important as the game goes on because most enemies cap out at 17-18 AC and accuracy boosters (+1 weapons, stuff like the soulknife's homing blades) becomes more common.

Agreed that accuracy and damage from additional sources helps them more than the advantage focused barbarian. But it really depends on where they sit before factoring those things in. I'm going to walk through a level 10 comparison in a bit.

Meanwhile the BM rogue is based around getting a second sneak attack, which is the primary scaling damage boost of the rogue.

Sure.

JNAProductions

2021-10-03, 11:15 AM

Cool...the multiverse needs Ultron to stop the chaos that arrives when Path of the Beast Barbarians can treat their claws, that are as sharp as shortswords, and count as Simple Weapons, as a one handed simple weapon.

Pedantry Uber Alles.🃏✌️

People have already said they’d allow it-but only noted that it’s not a guarantee, given what the RAW say.

strangebloke

2021-10-03, 11:46 AM

It's not just about having superiority dace. The high Damage maneuvers all require triggers. Those triggers have to occur enough per short rest or you either get stuck with dice or stuck using less damaging maneuvers. Being missed 4-5 turns per short rest is alot. Especially since rounds between short rests may vary between 3-9 in most cases. Sentinel really helps solve this problem though.

Yeah, I mean. The build as listed gets an OA whenever an enemy comes into melee range, leaves melee range, makes a melee attack against you and misses your 20 AC, or makes a melee attack against an ally. I feel like 1 of those 4 things is happening nearly every turn if you're playing things right. There's maybe a small consistency issue here but I don't think its very pronounced.

There is one more maneuver to be selected in this build, which would be the go-to on turns if a player thinks an SR or LR is coming up. I'm pretty sure precision attack is simply the best option here, as it generally will convert to even more damage than brace or riposte.

Witty Username

2021-10-03, 11:50 AM

Multiple bonus actions you have to regularly use really lowers DPR potential.

Just nitpicking, as I mentioned previously, Beastmaster does not want to be using Hunter's Mark. The only time you'd use that is if your beast can't reach the target this particular round, or if you know you'll be attacking it for at least three rounds, probably more. You get more mileage just telling your beast to attack than you get from HM. Beastmaster is one of the best classes for using Favored Foe, because it has no action cost.

Then don't take hunter's mark. Beastmaster has got good damage on its own, I would recommend sky beast going that route.

Edit: Are there any rules for this challenge regarding spellcasters? Hexblade 1/ Abjurer wizard is a pretty good sword and shield build with warcaster - booming blade, armor of agathys stuff. but you are doing most of your damage with ice armor arcane ward cheese.

Frogreaver

2021-10-03, 11:59 AM

So far here's where I'm at.

A Zealot Barbarian 5/Battlemaster Fighter 4/Rogue 1 is the theoretical best Damaging Character I can come up with. However, there's some negative synergy around riposte and granting enemies advantage to hit you - meaning that in practice this character may not actually outperform the Battlemaster 5/Rogue 5 or Barbarian 5/Rogue 5.

Next up I'd lean toward Battlemaster 5/Rogue 5. This character and the Zealot Barbarian/Rogue 5 are in a virtual dead heat. However, the Battlemaster 5/Rogue 5 has some significant advantages.

Sentinel. This feat is a game changer both early and later when you start adding in your rogue levels.
Turn 1 movement. The Battlemaster/Rogue can bonus action dash on turn 1. The Barbarian/Rogue will typically want to bonus action Rage.
No Danger of being controlled for a turn and losing rage (causing the loss of another turn).
Higher Impact of Magic Weapons.

*Note: In adventuring days with many combat rounds between rests the Zealot/Rogue will still tend to be better.

However, there's one thing I really dislike about the Battlemaster/Rogue. It's level progression will feel rough. At Battlemaster 5/Rogue 1 and 2 there's no easy way to guarantee sneak attack. By Rogue 3 you can take Swashbuckler to virtually guarantee it 100% of the time.

Then don't take hunter's mark. Beastmaster has got good damage on its own, I would recommend sky beast going that route.

Edit: Are there any rules for this challenge regarding spellcasters? Hexblade 1/ Abjurer wizard is a pretty good sword and shield build with warcaster - booming blade, armor of agathys stuff. but you are doing most of your damage with ice armor arcane ward cheese.

I don't have a problem with such a build in practice, but being nearly unable to predict damage output makes it pretty hard to compare in this kind of discussion. I guess I'd start by looking at the worst case for this. Which would be the enemy ignores you and just takes your booming blade hits/damage. and does what it wants.

Witty Username

2021-10-03, 12:16 PM

I don't have a problem with such a build in practice, but being nearly unable to predict damage output makes it pretty hard to compare in this kind of discussion. I guess I'd start by looking at the worst case for this. Which would be the enemy ignores you and just takes your booming blade hits/damage. and does what it wants.

About for 4d8 +dex (or cha) damage for your action, another 4d8 +dex (or cha) for your reaction, since you can move up hit, they try to move away, pop, then get bopped again.

Frogreaver

2021-10-03, 12:20 PM

About for 4d8 +dex (or cha) damage for your action, another 4d8 +dex (or cha) for your reaction, since you can move up hit, they try to move away, pop, then get bopped again.

Not quite. If your Booming Blade attack hits it does 2d8+dex. If they try to move away they will take an OA for 2d8+dex. Then they will take auto damage for 2d8 (they won't take the auto damage twice from booming blade as it's the same named effect).

And that's not the worst case. Worst case is there is another ally in it's range and it just attacks him.

strangebloke

2021-10-03, 12:53 PM

However, there's one thing I really dislike about the Battlemaster/Rogue. It's level progression will feel rough. At Battlemaster 5/Rogue 1 and 2 there's no easy way to guarantee sneak attack. By Rogue 3 you can take Swashbuckler to virtually guarantee it 100% of the time.

sneak attack is pretty reliable imo because you'll usually have a nearby ally. It's only 1d6 at that level anyway.

Frogreaver

2021-10-03, 01:16 PM

sneak attack is pretty reliable imo because you'll usually have a nearby ally. It's only 1d6 at that level anyway.

I think that's fair.

Hael

2021-10-03, 01:48 PM

The issue with damage buffs that only effect one enemy like Hexblade's Curse is 'what if the enemy dies'. Seriously, there's a fairly high chance that if you unload on the enemy that has hex and hexblade's curse on it that you only benefit from hexblade's curse 1 or maybe 2 turns before the enemy dies.
.

All the points you make are fair but really require a specification of the type of battle that is expected as this is getting into meta choices.

I personally tend to see one easy SR fight against trash where there is a lot of cleanup for martials (3 rounds usually) and one hard fight against a couple major enemies (can be 4 or 5+ rounds). The latter is where you want to use curse, and that tends to stick for at least 3 or 4 rounds. Which gives you a ~50% uptime per SR. If you assume that, its a decent damage boost for only a lvl invested and it synergizes well with advantage, especially against higher ACs. It also weaponizes a reaction or provides a damage shield and provides smite fuel if paladin is mixed in.

Another dip that might be interesting is 2 lvls of spore druid, if you assume some prebuffs, although I think that only becomes worthwhile in tier3 where useful asi/feats run out.

Frogreaver

2021-10-03, 02:05 PM

All the points you make are fair but really require a specification of the type of battle that is expected as this is getting into meta choices.

I personally tend to see one easy SR fight against trash where there is a lot of cleanup for martials (3 rounds usually) and one hard fight against a couple major enemies (can be 4 or 5+ rounds). The latter is where you want to use curse, and that tends to stick for at least 3 or 4 rounds. Which gives you a ~50% uptime per SR. If you assume that, its a decent damage boost for only a lvl invested and it synergizes well with advantage, especially against higher ACs. It also weaponizes a reaction or provides a damage shield and provides smite fuel if paladin is mixed in.

I can see that. Heck even if it only lasted 2 rounds and you used the slot for something like hellish rebuke or armor of agathys that would increase damage from what I was considering. I still don't think it's enough to compete with the other characters mentioned but it's better than i gave initial credit for.

Another dip that might be interesting is 2 lvls of spore druid, if you assume some prebuffs, although I think that only becomes worthwhile in tier3 where useful asi/feats run out.

Probably, but he's worth taking a look at.

renzdog

2021-10-04, 04:10 AM

If bloodhunter is allowed it offers some interesting tools to the mix

level 1: fighting style
level 2: crimsom rite (kind of like a concentration free hunters mark that doesn't require a bonus action to move and can often be placed before combat starts)
level 3: subclass ability
mutant: +3 attack attribute (with drawback)
profane soul: hex spell (or any level 1 warlock spell)
lycan: bonus action attack + other stuff
level 5 extra attack

It is the better version of spore druid as a 2 level dip (if allowed)
It is also reasonable to go bloodhunter 5 then dip something else (barbarian?)

Also, if it qualifies don't sleep on a melee cleric. melee attack (booming blade/green flame blade) + spiritual weapon+spirit guardians adds up.

Frogreaver

2021-10-04, 05:04 AM

If bloodhunter is allowed it offers some interesting tools to the mix

level 1: fighting style
level 2: crimsom rite (kind of like a concentration free hunters mark that doesn't require a bonus action to move and can often be placed before combat starts)
level 3: subclass ability
mutant: +3 attack attribute (with drawback)
profane soul: hex spell (or any level 1 warlock spell)
lycan: bonus action attack + other stuff
level 5 extra attack

It is the better version of spore druid as a 2 level dip (if allowed)
It is also reasonable to go bloodhunter 5 then dip something else (barbarian?)

Not allowed but interesting.

Also, if it qualifies don't sleep on a melee cleric. melee attack (booming blade/green flame blade) + spiritual weapon+spirit guardians adds up.

He's not bad, but he won't keep up. Forge Cleric does make a good dip though. Bless for prebuffing and a guaranteed +1 magic weapon.

Witty Username

2021-10-04, 08:36 PM

Not quite. If your Booming Blade attack hits it does 2d8+dex. If they try to move away they will take an OA for 2d8+dex. Then they will take auto damage for 2d8 (they won't take the auto damage twice from booming blade as it's the same named effect).

And that's not the worst case. Worst case is there is another ally in it's range and it just attacks him.

Eh, the worst case is that they are attacking you from range and you can't reach them with a melee weapon.

Rukelnikov

2021-10-05, 06:30 AM

If Shadow Blade + Bladetrips is allowed

Bladesinger 8 / Paladin 2
Half-Elf

13
15(+2)
12
13(+1)
8
12(+1)

Wiz4: Elven Accuracy (Dex) (Dex 18)
Wiz8: +2 Dex (Dex 20)
FS: Dueling

Cantrips: BB, GFB, +2
Preparation: Mage Armor, Shadow Blade, Misty Step, Thunder Step, Dimension Door, Improved Invis(*)

AC: 20
Routine: BB/GFB +9, 25 (3d8+7+1d8)
Attack +9, 20.5 (3d8+7)

So, we can't make use of Bladesong since we are using a shield, but we don't care, what we want is the spellcasting progression and the free bladetrip.

We can have a 3d8 Shadow blade up 5 combats per long rest (3+1 4th lvl, 1 5th lvl), should be enough for most adventuring days. Mage Armor we are gonna castout of combat, and we dont need Warcaster to cast either baldetrip or MStep/TStep/DDoor, and we aren't gonna be casting anything else since we are Team Sword & Board.

We deal pretty decent damage, and have the option to go nova if we so want to, or capitalize on the crits we eventually get during the day smiting only on those attacks, or mix and match.

We can expect to have advantage in a couple fights a day, and if we really want to, we can cast Improved Invis instead of SB in some combat and go with a rapier.

We should be able to reach our enemies on most of the turns using with Misty Step if necessary.

If for whatever reason we happen to get a finesse Flametongue or similar, we can drop SB in favor of Improved Invis (this also works if SB is ruled incompatible with the bladetrips)

Another build that probably works would involve 1 lvl Rogue, 1 level Genielock, for "free" 1d6+4 damage/round (having your familiar on you enables SA, even without the Help action)

Frogreaver

2021-10-06, 07:54 PM

strangebloke

2021-10-06, 08:12 PM

Frogreaver

2021-10-06, 08:29 PM

If summons are on the table you may as well bring up a hobgoblin necromancer using ever slot on animate dead.

Beyond the fact that I wouldn't consider necromancers for anything in such a discussion because it's not a character I would ever bring to the table and would hope no one else would bring to my tables either either - mass summons get annoying fast. The necromancer basically ignores the whole sword and board aspect - or in the best case just pays lip service to it.

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-10-06, 09:15 PM

Here's a start: Be a Paladin. Find some shadow demons and hit them with Divine Smite while rolling 20s. Repeat. The smite damage alone is worth 12d8 for a level 1 slot.

Hael

2021-10-07, 01:22 AM

I may have found a very competitive option for tier 2. A hexblade warlock focusing on Summon Fey.

Start out Variant Human with resilient Con. Start with 16 cha 16 con 14 dex. Pump Charisma at ASI levels. The build appears to stay competitive with the fighter/rogue from levels 5-10. It's not as clear if it can stay competitive from levels 1-4 though.

If summons and magic are on the table and being counted as damage, then there are *many* builds that will top the enhanced martial options which have been proposed so far. Any sort of spikegrowth or wall of fire options (Genie Daolocks for instance) will beat it out. Fast Grapplers that procur those spells as well.

Shepherd druids. Builds that abuse tiny servants.

Even something not terribly optimized like spirit guardian + spiritual weapon with a light or death cleric will likely output total damage numbers well in excess of what has been discussed assuming you fight some battles with hordes due to the sheer value that AOE can generate.

Also in so far as individual summons are concerned, you're best bet for DPR is summon greater demon from the lock or wizard spell list. Throw it at the enemies, and run away.

Frogreaver

2021-10-07, 07:31 AM

If summons and magic are on the table and being counted as damage, then there are *many* builds that will top the enhanced martial options which have been proposed so far. Any sort of spikegrowth or wall of fire options (Genie Daolocks for instance) will beat it out. Fast Grapplers that procur those spells as well.

None of those builds emphasize sword and shield fighting in any recognizable sense. I mean you just told me to grapple when my hands are full. Come on Man!

Shepherd druids. Builds that abuse tiny servants.

I see nothing about a sword and shield here. In fact such a character is going to work much better actively trying to not use the sword and shield.

Even something not terribly optimized like spirit guardian + spiritual weapon with a light or death cleric will likely output total damage numbers well in excess of what has been discussed assuming you fight some battles with hordes due to the sheer value that AOE can generate.

When I've been talking damage with weapons which is single target and then AOE targeting a bazillion enemies gets brought up it makes me shake my head in disbelief because that's not even remotely the same kind of thing.

Also in so far as individual summons are concerned, you're best bet for DPR is summon greater demon from the lock or wizard spell list. Throw it at the enemies, and run away.

That totally deemphasizes the sword and shield aspect which makes it a no-go. The goal isn't to carry around a sword and shield and cast spells for everything, it's to actually use the sword and shield for a significant portion of my damage.

IMO, The use of spells to add damage is fine, but not to the point that carrying around the sword and shield becomes a token just so you can post about a particular build here. Use some common sense people!

Rukelnikov

2021-10-07, 11:56 AM

IMO, The use of spells to add damage is fine, but not to the point that carrying around the sword and shield becomes a token just so you can post about a particular build here. Use some common sense people!

I think I limited my spell selection to where I'd still consider the character mostly a Sword&Board archetype.

strangebloke

2021-10-07, 12:19 PM

None of those builds emphasize sword and shield fighting in any recognizable sense. I mean you just told me to grapple when my hands are full. Come on Man!

I mean, I don't disagree but you're the one who brought up summoning ""builds.""

Fumble

2021-10-07, 12:27 PM

Would an eldrict knight 7/ wizard 3 using shadow blade be a possible contender?

strangebloke

2021-10-07, 12:51 PM

RogueJK

2021-10-07, 01:10 PM

Would an eldrict knight 7/ wizard 3 using shadow blade be a possible contender?

I generally wouldn't think so? My guess is that a regular hexblade makes way better use of that spell, maybe with a few levels of fighter for flavor.

That Eldritch Knight/Wizard achieves 3rd level spell slots for upcasting Shadow Blade, and the ability to use a SCAGtrip + Bonus Action Attack (provided your DM allows Shadow Blade to be used with a SCAGtrip; there's a whole multi-page thread on that currently). Assuming an 18 in your attack stat (STR/DEX) and the Dueling fighting style, that's 8d8+12 per turn (3d8+3d8+2d8), if both attacks hit.

A Hexblade Warlock 9/Fighter 1 has 5th level slots for upcasting Shadow Blade. Assuming an 18 CHA, the Dueling Fighting Style, and the Thirsting Blade invocation for Extra Attack, they're also doing 8d8+12 per turn (4d8+4d8), if both of their attacks hit.

The EK/W version comes out ahead on a per-round basis is if you have a means to reliably trigger the additional SCAGtrip rider damage, and also has the ability to Action Surge to gain an additional 2x attacks for a bonus 6d8+12 per short rest. However, the flip side is that over the course of the day, the Hexblade/Fighter is able to upcast Shadow Blade more times per day, thanks to their short rest recharging 5th level slots giving them the equivalent of 6x 5th level slots per day versus the EK/W's 2x 3rd level slots total per day.

So as for which comes out ahead, it's going to come down to variables like how often you're able to trigger the SCAGtrip riders, and how many total combats per day you're expecting, along with how many Short Rests you have access to.

(But beyond the sword damage output, the Hexblade also have the advantage of being able to cast 3rd/4th/5th level spells as needed, whereas the EK/W is limited to 2nd level spells. Plus, the Hexblade can be CHA-SAD, whereas the EK/W needs both STR/DEX for attacking plus INT for casting, if they want to be able to utilize attack/save spells that rely on their casting stat.)

Frogreaver

2021-10-07, 09:56 PM

Would an eldrict knight 7/ wizard 3 using shadow blade be a possible contender?

As long as you have a level 3+ shadow blade up then yes. Only potential issue is when you don't have enough spell slots for it. Then your damage falls pretty hard.

I mean, I don't disagree but you're the one who brought up summoning ""builds.""

I brought up one particular summoning build that gets extra attack and can turn its weapon into a +1 magical weapon while having a summon up. That doesn't imply there's free reign for any summoning build that simply holds a sword and shield.

I think I limited my spell selection to where I'd still consider the character mostly a Sword&Board archetype.

I thought the same.

That Eldritch Knight/Wizard achieves 3rd level spell slots for upcasting Shadow Blade, and the ability to use a SCAGtrip + Bonus Action Attack (provided your DM allows Shadow Blade to be used with a SCAGtrip; there's a whole multi-page thread on that currently). Assuming an 18 in your attack stat (STR/DEX) and the Dueling fighting style, that's 8d8+12 per turn (3d8+3d8+2d8), if both attacks hit.

A Hexblade Warlock 9/Fighter 1 has 5th level slots for upcasting Shadow Blade. Assuming an 18 CHA, the Dueling Fighting Style, and the Thirsting Blade invocation for Extra Attack, they're also doing 8d8+12 per turn (4d8+4d8), if both of their attacks hit.

The EK/W version comes out ahead on a per-round basis is if you have a means to reliably trigger the additional SCAGtrip rider damage, and also has the ability to Action Surge to gain an additional 2x attacks for a bonus 6d8+12 per short rest. However, the flip side is that over the course of the day, the Hexblade/Fighter is able to upcast Shadow Blade more times per day, thanks to their short rest recharging 5th level slots giving them the equivalent of 6x 5th level slots per day versus the EK/W's 2x 3rd level slots total per day.

So as for which comes out ahead, it's going to come down to variables like how often you're able to trigger the SCAGtrip riders, and how many total combats per day you're expecting, along with how many Short Rests you have access to.

(But beyond the sword damage output, the Hexblade also have the advantage of being able to cast 3rd/4th/5th level spells as needed, whereas the EK/W is limited to 2nd level spells. Plus, the Hexblade can be CHA-SAD, whereas the EK/W needs both STR/DEX for attacking plus INT for casting, if they want to be able to utilize attack/save spells that rely on their casting stat.)

I always thought shadow blade didn't work with thirsting blade because it couldn't be made into your pact weapon.

I generally wouldn't think so? My guess is that a regular hexblade makes way better use of that spell, maybe with a few levels of fighter for flavor.

I've found a new winner - battlemaster 5/warlock 5 comes in the strongest at level 10 so far of all the things i've tried. Can be any warlock subclass. Primary thing is getting a level 3 short rest recharging shadowblade. Damage can be increased a bit by using the genie subclass. Altogether, I'm getting numbers about 20% higher than the battlemaster 5/rogue 5.

Hael

2021-10-08, 12:16 AM

None of those builds emphasize sword and shield fighting in any recognizable sense.

Ok, relax that is what I initially thought as well. But then a Hexblade with a summon isn't exactly emphasizing a sword and shield.. Most of their damage will be from the summon..

I mean, why not a bladesinger (who foregoes bladesong and wield a shield and rapier) and summon demon? Can throw some battlemaster in there as well.

Frogreaver

2021-10-08, 08:28 AM

Ok, relax that is what I initially thought as well. But then a Hexblade with a summon isn't exactly emphasizing a sword and shield.. Most of their damage will be from the summon..

I mean, why not a bladesinger (who foregoes bladesong and wield a shield and rapier) and summon demon? Can throw some battlemaster in there as well.

That feels a bit better. Do you plan to maintain control of the demon or release it? If you release it then you really don't want to be in melee with it. If you don't want to release it that seems being in melee with it is an awful lot of risk.

There's also an issue with doing pretty substandard damage for most of the game. I'm not just looking for a level 10 build that does the most. Though high damage level 10 builds are a good starting point - you need to maintain high damage throughout your career.

Eldariel

2021-10-08, 11:03 AM

That feels a bit better. Do you plan to maintain control of the demon or release it? If you release it then you really don't want to be in melee with it. If you don't want to release it that seems being in melee with it is an awful lot of risk.

There's also an issue with doing pretty substandard damage for most of the game. I'm not just looking for a level 10 build that does the most. Though high damage level 10 builds are a good starting point - you need to maintain high damage throughout your career.

Well, Bladesinger damage is quite competitive on level 6: getting to add that free +1d8 or +3d8/2d8+3-5 on level 5 and then attack twice is just really sweet on a shell that also has Find Familiar for decently reliable advantage and like Spirit Shroud or Shadow Blade for extra damage. Indeed, I think far as damage goes, Wizard is an extremely solid option 1-10 though of course you need to invest in medium armor and shield, which won't really be available until level 4 unless you put your race to it (and even then, to get Shield you need Moderately Armored or a dip - Fighter-dip for Dueling and shields is not terrible in this regard even though it postpones the good stuff for a level and doesn't advance casting like Hexblade, Cleric or Artificer dip would). With decent Wisdom, War Cleric is not a terrible dip either as it gives you that elusive bonus action attack a few times per day, which combined with bonus action spells and potential Shield Master would be fairly solid.

Frogreaver

2021-10-08, 07:29 PM

Well, Bladesinger damage is quite competitive on level 6: getting to add that free +1d8 or +3d8/2d8+3-5 on level 5 and then attack twice is just really sweet on a shell that also has Find Familiar for decently reliable advantage and like Spirit Shroud or Shadow Blade for extra damage. Indeed, I think far as damage goes, Wizard is an extremely solid option 1-10 though of course you need to invest in medium armor and shield, which won't really be available until level 4 unless you put your race to it (and even then, to get Shield you need Moderately Armored or a dip - Fighter-dip for Dueling and shields is not terrible in this regard even though it postpones the good stuff for a level and doesn't advance casting like Hexblade, Cleric or Artificer dip would). With decent Wisdom, War Cleric is not a terrible dip either as it gives you that elusive bonus action attack a few times per day, which combined with bonus action spells and potential Shield Master would be fairly solid.

The Battlemaster/Genie Warlock I mentioned earlier is coming in about 60-70% higher Damage at level 10 than a single class blade singer (taking the level 4 feat for moderately armored) and using a max level slot for shadowblade. Also, Multiclassing a primary bladesinger before level 6 extra attack tanks your damage at level 5 and 6 hard compared to other characters that get extra attack at 5th.

Rukelnikov

2021-10-08, 07:50 PM

The Battlemaster/Genie Warlock I mentioned earlier is coming in about 60-70% higher Damage at level 10 than a single class blade singer (taking the level 4 feat for moderately armored) and using a max level slot for shadowblade. Also, Multiclassing a primary bladesinger before level 6 extra attack tanks your damage at level 5 and 6 hard compared to other characters that get extra attack at 5th.

How many combats pero short and long rest are you simulating? And against what ACs?

Btw, as I said in my post, I think rogue1/genie1 are some of the best additions. I thought SB damage bump came at 4th level slot when I did the previous build, now I know it comes at 3rd level, maybe its worth considering

Bladesinger 6/Paladin 2/Rogue 1/Genie 1

The rest is the same as the previous build obviously losing the 20 Dex. The tradeoff should be worse than the previous build if there are few encounters per day, but better if there are too many.

Witty Username

2021-10-08, 08:59 PM

Beyond the fact that I wouldn't consider necromancers for anything in such a discussion because it's not a character I would ever bring to the table and would hope no one else would bring to my tables either either - mass summons get annoying fast. The necromancer basically ignores the whole sword and board aspect - or in the best case just pays lip service to it.

Would you be open to oathbreaker Paladin, I was thinking of trying an animate dead plus Paladin aura buff stuff, kinda warlordish maybe some hexblade to smooth out rough edges.

Frogreaver

2021-10-08, 09:08 PM

How many combats pero short and long rest are you simulating? And against what ACs?

Anything reasonable. For most of mine I've used 18 rounds of combat with 2 short rests but I'm not married to the idea, it just seemed like a reasonable starting point.

EDIT: Just noticed the part about 'against what AC's'. I use a spreadsheet and I have a lines for AC's ranging from 11-20.

Bladesinger 6/Paladin 2/Rogue 1/Genie 1

Such a character probably plays fine at levels 8+, but it's early levels are going to be a slog. Lacking a shield is the biggest challenge as that's a requirement for this and getting it either further delays ASI's or significantly delays extra attack.

The rest is the same as the previous build obviously losing the 20 Dex. The tradeoff should be worse than the previous build if there are few encounters per day, but better if there are too many.

Battlemaster/Wizard or Battlemaster/Sorcerer can nearly keep up with the battlemaster/warlock at level 10 if the adventuring day is short enough. Warlock tends to scale better as your leveling though. And invocations add alot of extra utility to this kind of character.

Would you be open to oathbreaker Paladin, I was thinking of trying an animate dead plus Paladin aura buff stuff, kinda warlordish maybe some hexblade to smooth out rough edges.

Maybe, what's a typical combat of his look like?

Witty Username

2021-10-08, 10:09 PM

Rukelnikov

2021-10-09, 12:45 AM

Anything reasonable. For most of mine I've used 18 rounds of combat with 2 short rests but I'm not married to the idea, it just seemed like a reasonable starting point.

Well, I think 18 rounds of combat is reasonable, but theres a big difference if thats 3 combatos or 6, the latter being pretty much optimal for the build you say is the best. If it were 3, that would be 3 extra smites.

EDIT: Just noticed the part about 'against what AC's'. I use a spreadsheet and I have a lines for AC's ranging from 11-20.

Ah thats ok.

Such a character probably plays fine at levels 8+, but it's early levels are going to be a slog. Lacking a shield is the biggest challenge as that's a requirement for this and getting it either further delays ASI's or significantly delays extra attack.

Yeah, the leveling would be a pain

Battlemaster/Wizard or Battlemaster/Sorcerer can nearly keep up with the battlemaster/warlock at level 10 if the adventuring day is short enough. Warlock tends to scale better as your leveling though. And invocations add alot of extra utility to this kind of character.

I think BM Wiz costs too much, taking just 1 level of Ftr for proficiencies and fighting style its ok, but taking 2 for AS I think is worse than getting smites and an additional level for spell slots, and getting 3 its a lot of spell slots that could be used for smiting and an ASI.

Eldariel

2021-10-09, 05:07 AM

The Battlemaster/Genie Warlock I mentioned earlier is coming in about 60-70% higher Damage at level 10 than a single class blade singer (taking the level 4 feat for moderately armored) and using a max level slot for shadowblade. Also, Multiclassing a primary bladesinger before level 6 extra attack tanks your damage at level 5 and 6 hard compared to other characters that get extra attack at 5th.

It's not that bad. You still have Booming Blade/GFB at +1d8, Shadow Blade at 2d8 or 3d8 if you multiclass into a caster, and familiar for advantage. That's a very solid damage setup compared to most things especially if you also have Dueling on top of that; it's still perfectly competitive with most Longsword Fighter-types and Rogue-types alike (Rogue has 1d6+Dex+3d6 + 1d6 TWF while Wizard has 3d8+Dex+2-if-Dueling and potential extra 2d8 or 1d8+3 from trigger).

Frogreaver

2021-10-09, 07:21 AM

I was thinking two permutations, one maintaining a backline of skeletons for Archery support, and the other charging in with skeletons/zombies along side. I think the second is probably more in line with your goals. At 9th(when you get animate dead) you can only maintain 4. I like the idea of zombies because aura of protection will help them stay alive. From there, probably dueling fighting style, bless for yourself and 2-3 zombies while you go on the offense. Saying this out loud, I think this is less high damage and more trading some for some battle control since you are more capable of gumming up choke points and cutting off escapes but I would have to run the numbers.
Maybe a level in sorcerer for booming blade and con save proficiency, and extra bless/smites.

I don't think it will be the highest but it'll be interesting to see where it lands. Though oathbreaker doesn't get much early damage so probably isn't the way to go overall here.

Well, I think 18 rounds of combat is reasonable, but theres a big difference if thats 3 combatos or 6, the latter being pretty much optimal for the build you say is the best. If it were 3, that would be 3 extra smites.

When it comes to daily damage abilities, I've been comparing that with how many rounds for other builds to 'catch up with that daily damage amount'. If it fails within normal expectations then great. If it's much lower or higher than one would expect then we have a clear answer.

I think BM Wiz costs too much, taking just 1 level of Ftr for proficiencies and fighting style its ok, but taking 2 for AS I think is worse than getting smites and an additional level for spell slots, and getting 3 its a lot of spell slots that could be used for smiting and an ASI.

The idea there is to start BM 5 and then go Wiz 5. You don't even need to be Bladesinger in this version. I don't think smites compete well vs superiority dice for damage except for the shortest adventuring days.

It's not that bad. You still have Booming Blade/GFB at +1d8, Shadow Blade at 2d8 or 3d8 if you multiclass into a caster, and familiar for advantage. That's a very solid damage setup compared to most things especially if you also have Dueling on top of that; it's still perfectly competitive with most Longsword Fighter-types and Rogue-types alike (Rogue has 1d6+Dex+3d6 + 1d6 TWF while Wizard has 3d8+Dex+2-if-Dueling and potential extra 2d8 or 1d8+3 from trigger).

I'll tell you what. There's alot of variables at play. So give me your assumptions about number of combat rounds per day. Number of short rests per day. How often the familiar grants you advantage. How often shadowblade grants you advantage, the exact build your suggesting. I'll do a full comparison at level 5 and level 10 that accounts for all of that.

Eldariel

2021-10-09, 09:37 AM

I'll tell you what. There's alot of variables at play. So give me your assumptions about number of combat rounds per day. Number of short rests per day. How often the familiar grants you advantage. How often shadowblade grants you advantage, the exact build your suggesting. I'll do a full comparison at level 5 and level 10 that accounts for all of that.

That's the hard part, since it varies a lot by scenario. Using Owl familiar in melee setup I would estimate it would be fairly durable, to the tune of being able to grant advantage on 80% of the turns (rest of the time it would be dead until next short rest on the account of a mindless minion taking it down or an AOE hitting it). Shadow Blade advantage...well, that's entirely by scenario, but using LMoP as a guideline and accounting for the roughly 50% of a day as dim light...bright daylight (0%) > lightless cavern (100%) > illuminated cavern (call it 50%, party can turn off the lights fairly easily but it has to be done or fought outside torch range) > illuminated castle (call it 20%, most likely the party won't have the actions to spare to deal with light here)/overland fight (50%)/overland fight (50%)/lightless dungeon (100%). So call it maybe 50% but well within the power of the party to make it substantially higher or lower.

In total:
- 80% Owl
- 50% Shadow Blade

Green-Flame Blade is another issue: call it 30% to have non-fire resistant enemies adjacent to one another so you can hit both with it. Booming Blade: without a way to disengage for free, maybe 10% chance of enemy giving you the proc? Depends on how threatening they consider you I guess.

Exact build...well, let's go with:
Half-Elf Fighter 1/Bladesinger 9

17 Dex, 16 Int, rest doesn't matter (though obviously you have 16 Con)

FS: Dueling

Level 5: Moderately Armored - 18 Dex
Level 9: Elven Accuracy - 17 Int (though really, doesn't actually matter and could be better spent on +2 Dex for pure damage)

Spells of relevance:
- Find Familiar: Owl
- Shadow Blade (on level 4)
- Booming Blade/Green-Flame Blade

Hmm, the other alternative is of course CL with War Caster + Moderately Armored on 4 and 18 Dex, dealing with any possible nonsense regarding wanting to cast spells and not wanting to take the bonus action to reform Shadow Blade. But if we're looking to maximise damage, I do wager the Elf comes out ahead.

Far as the numbers, I think the relevant levels are 5, 6 [the dip levels], 7 [the peak level]. Outside those it should fall under expected parameters. On level 6 we can further assume 3 castings of level 3 Shadow Blade instead for 3d8 base weapon.

Frogreaver

2021-10-09, 10:43 AM

That's the hard part, since it varies a lot by scenario. Using Owl familiar in melee setup I would estimate it would be fairly durable, to the tune of being able to grant advantage on 80% of the turns (rest of the time it would be dead until next short rest on the account of a mindless minion taking it down or an AOE hitting it). Shadow Blade advantage...well, that's entirely by scenario, but using LMoP as a guideline and accounting for the roughly 50% of a day as dim light...bright daylight (0%) > lightless cavern (100%) > illuminated cavern (call it 50%, party can turn off the lights fairly easily but it has to be done or fought outside torch range) > illuminated castle (call it 20%, most likely the party won't have the actions to spare to deal with light here)/overland fight (50%)/overland fight (50%)/lightless dungeon (100%). So call it maybe 50% but well within the power of the party to make it substantially higher or lower.

In total:
- 80% Owl
- 50% Shadow Blade

Green-Flame Blade is another issue: call it 30% to have non-fire resistant enemies adjacent to one another so you can hit both with it. Booming Blade: without a way to disengage for free, maybe 10% chance of enemy giving you the proc? Depends on how threatening they consider you I guess.

Exact build...well, let's go with:
Half-Elf Fighter 1/Bladesinger 9

17 Dex, 16 Int, rest doesn't matter (though obviously you have 16 Con)

FS: Dueling

Level 5: Moderately Armored - 18 Dex
Level 9: Elven Accuracy - 17 Int (though really, doesn't actually matter and could be better spent on +2 Dex for pure damage)

Spells of relevance:
- Find Familiar: Owl
- Shadow Blade (on level 4)
- Booming Blade/Green-Flame Blade

Hmm, the other alternative is of course CL with War Caster + Moderately Armored on 4 and 18 Dex, dealing with any possible nonsense regarding wanting to cast spells and not wanting to take the bonus action to reform Shadow Blade. But if we're looking to maximise damage, I do wager the Elf comes out ahead.

Far as the numbers, I think the relevant levels are 5, 6 [the dip levels], 7 [the peak level]. Outside those it should fall under expected parameters. On level 6 we can further assume 3 castings of level 3 Shadow Blade instead for 3d8 base weapon.

Sounds good so far. How many encounters/rounds in the adventuring day and how many short rests?

Eldariel

2021-10-09, 10:54 AM

Sounds good so far. How many encounters/rounds in the adventuring day and how many short rests?

Let's go with the DMG calculation averages; 7 encounters, 2 short rests so 3/2/2 encounters per short rest, average 3 rounds/encounter (call it 1-5 at random for each encounter)

Frogreaver

2021-10-09, 11:03 AM

Let's go with the DMG calculation averages; 7 encounters, 2 short rests so 3/2/2 encounters per short rest, average 3 rounds/encounter (call it 1-5 at random for each encounter)

Let's not overly complicate calculations. The number of encounters is good. But assuming a random number of rounds per encounter makes it a pain to work with precision/brace/riposte manuevers (which is what your build is competing against). I'll assume 3 there.

Update - I completed the level 10 comparison.

A brief summary of my build.

Battle Master 5 / Genie Warlock 5
Utilizes Genies Wrath
Utilizes a familiar from Chain Pact
Utilizes Shadow Blade in level 3 slots
Utilizes Brace/Riposte/Precision Manuevers (assumed would use 3 riposte/brace and 1 precision attack per short rest)
Utilizes Action Surge

*Important notes, 1 encounter per day was without Shadowblade for this character based on proposed 7 encounter adventuring day
Maneuver use was assumed to be averaged out over the encounters with and without shadowblade (even though could push to use more when I have shadow blade up which increases their effectiveness).

The numbers compared to your Elven Accuracy Bladesinger character are listed below (assumed 2 uses of level 5 sloted shadowblade due to arcane recovery)

Comparison is for level 10 and I used your assumptions for advantage from shadowblade and familiars

vs xxAC = bladesinger build // battlemaster+warlock build
vs 11AC = 44.3 //62.1
vs 12AC = 43.7 // 60.9
vs 13AC = 43.0 // 59.4
vs 14AC = 42.2 // 57.7
vs 15AC = 41.4 // 55.9
vs 16AC = 40.4 // 53.9
vs 17AC = 39.3 // 51.8
vs 18AC = 38.1 // 49.4
vs 19AC = 36.7 // 46.9
vs 20AC = 35.1 // 44.2

Comparison for level 5 completed (Bladesinger is Fighter 1/Bladesinger 4. Assumes Elven Accuracy for bladesinger/fighter

vs xxAC = bladesinger build // battlemaster+warlock build
vs 11AC = 18.8 // 30.3
vs 12AC = 19.0 // 28.7
vs 13AC = 18.7 // 27.0
vs 14AC = 18.4 // 25.3
vs 15AC = 18.0 // 23.7
vs 16AC = 17.6 // 22.0
vs 17AC = 17.0 // 20.4
vs 18AC = 16.4 // 18.7
vs 19AC = 15.6 // 17.1
vs 20AC = 14.7 // 15.4

Comparison for level 6 completed

vs xxAC = bladesinger build // battlemaster+warlock build
vs 11AC = 22.5 // 40.4
vs 12AC = 22.4 // 38.4
vs 13AC = 22.1 // 36.5
vs 14AC = 21.8 // 34.6
vs 15AC = 21.4 // 32.6
vs 16AC = 20.9 // 30.6
vs 17AC = 20.3 // 28.7
vs 18AC = 19.5 // 26.7
vs 19AC = 18.6 // 24.6
vs 20AC = 17.6 // 22.6

Without calculating I think level 7 has a good chance to come out slightly in the bladesingers favor but with the evidence of level 5,6 and 10 being pretty significantly in the fighter/warlocks favor I'm not sure it's worth exploring further.

OBoyd

2021-10-10, 11:20 AM

Let's not overly complicate calculations. The number of encounters is good. But assuming a random number of rounds per encounter makes it a pain to work with precision/brace/riposte manuevers (which is what your build is competing against). I'll assume 3 there.

Update - I completed the level 10 comparison.

A brief summary of my build.

Battle Master 5 / Genie Warlock 5
Utilizes Genies Wrath
Utilizes a familiar from Chain Pact
Utilizes Shadow Blade in level 3 slots
Utilizes Brace/Riposte/Precision Manuevers (assumed would use 3 riposte/brace and 1 precision attack per short rest)
Utilizes Action Surge

*Important notes, 1 encounter per day was without Shadowblade for this character based on proposed 7 encounter adventuring day
Maneuver use was assumed to be averaged out over the encounters with and without shadowblade (even though could push to use more when I have shadow blade up which increases their effectiveness).

The numbers compared to your Elven Accuracy Bladesinger character are listed below (assumed 2 uses of level 5 sloted shadowblade due to arcane recovery)

Comparison is for level 10 and I used your assumptions for advantage from shadowblade and familiars

vs xxAC = bladesinger build // battlemaster+warlock build
vs 11AC = 44.3 //62.1
vs 12AC = 43.7 // 60.9
vs 13AC = 43.0 // 59.4
vs 14AC = 42.2 // 57.7
vs 15AC = 41.4 // 55.9
vs 16AC = 40.4 // 53.9
vs 17AC = 39.3 // 51.8
vs 18AC = 38.1 // 49.4
vs 19AC = 36.7 // 46.9
vs 20AC = 35.1 // 44.2

What would your level progression be? It seems like you are putting off either 2 attacks or Shadow Blade until level 8. And you're going to be 2 ASI behind a straight Fighter at that level (and 1 behind until it least 11th level).

Eldariel

2021-10-10, 12:05 PM

But wait, on level 10 you can Shadow Blade V for two encounters and then Shadow Blade III for three remaining ones and Shadow Blade IV (if we're looking to maximise damage) for the last ones. I don't think they should be running out of Shadow Blades. If you have the formula where you can easily swap the numbers, could you please try these numbers instead? I don't think it'll make up the difference but given the fairly significant crit chance and base damage increase, it should be relevant.

I wonder if Bladesinger 7/Battlemaster 3 would be better...

Frogreaver

2021-10-11, 08:52 AM

Unoriginal

2021-10-11, 12:38 PM

What about Beast Barbarian 5/Genie Warlock Pact of the Blade 5 with Eldritch Smite?

Rukelnikov

2021-10-11, 05:48 PM

What about Beast Barbarian 5/Genie Warlock Pact of the Blade 5 with Eldritch Smite?

I think with the ammount of encouters he's modeling, rage will only be up for less than half the encounters, and he won't be able to smite anything cause then he won't have slots for SB.

Frogreaver

2021-10-11, 08:18 PM

I think with the ammount of encouters he's modeling, rage will only be up for less than half the encounters, and he won't be able to smite anything cause then he won't have slots for SB.

I'm happy to look at shorter days as well

What about Beast Barbarian 5/Genie Warlock Pact of the Blade 5 with Eldritch Smite?

Using the same 7 encounter adventuring day I get something like. I assumed you used eldritch smite on crits a little below your average number of crits in a short rest span. Assumed 100% reckless attack. I also took the liberty of using the invocation to turn the weapon into a +1 magical weapon (for when not raging and using claws). Assumed main stat boost. Didn't assume any feats, but could likely push the DPR up another +1.5ish with variant human for a feat.

11AC 38.8
12AC 38.7
13AC 38.4
14AC 38.0
15AC 37.5
16AC 36.8
17AC 36.1
18AC 35.2
19AC 34.1
20AC 33.0

It's honestly alot closer to the shadowblade using bladesinger than i expected.

What would your level progression be? It seems like you are putting off either 2 attacks or Shadow Blade until level 8. And you're going to be 2 ASI behind a straight Fighter at that level (and 1 behind until it least 11th level).

For the Battlemaster warlock it would be go 5 Battlemaster then go 5 Warlock.

Comparison for level 5 completed (Bladesinger is Fighter 1/Bladesinger 4. Assumes Elven Accuracy for bladesinger/fighter

vs xxAC = bladesinger build // battlemaster+warlock build
vs 11AC = 18.8 // 30.3
vs 12AC = 19.0 // 28.7
vs 13AC = 18.7 // 27.0
vs 14AC = 18.4 // 25.3
vs 15AC = 18.0 // 23.7
vs 16AC = 17.6 // 22.0
vs 17AC = 17.0 // 20.4
vs 18AC = 16.4 // 18.7
vs 19AC = 15.6 // 17.1
vs 20AC = 14.7 // 15.4

Comparison for level 6 completed

vs xxAC = bladesinger build // battlemaster+warlock build
vs 11AC = 22.5 // 40.4
vs 12AC = 22.4 // 38.4
vs 13AC = 22.1 // 36.5
vs 14AC = 21.8 // 34.6
vs 15AC = 21.4 // 32.6
vs 16AC = 20.9 // 30.6
vs 17AC = 20.3 // 28.7
vs 18AC = 19.5 // 26.7
vs 19AC = 18.6 // 24.6
vs 20AC = 17.6 // 22.6

Without calculating I think level 7 has a good chance to come out slightly in the bladesingers favor but with the evidence of level 5,6 and 10 being pretty significantly in the fighter/warlocks favor I'm not sure it's worth exploring further.

@Eldariel - I've completed more comparisons