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View Full Version : Does Celerity + Timestop actually work?



Chronos
2007-11-16, 07:28 PM
Everyone who reads this or other D&D boards is familiar with this combo, by now: A wizard casts Celerity, followed by Timestop. Celerity is an immediate action (meaning you can cast it on your opponent's turn), and lets you take one standard action (such as casting a spell). However, after doing so, it leaves you unable to act for a turn, so you'd better make that single standard action count.

Timestop is a one standard action casting time, and lets you act for 1d4+1 rounds (your time), while almost no time passes for everyone else.

So the idea of the combo is that you spend the first round of the Timestop unable to act, but then have as many as four rounds in which to do something nasty.

But I've been thinking about this, and I'm not sure it works. For this combo to work, one has to assume that the one round of no actions from the Celerity is counted in terms of the wizard's time. Is there any reason to assume this? It seems to me much more reasonable to assume that the "borrowed time" for Celerity is counted in real time. If this is the case, then a wizard who used his Celerity bonus action to cast Timestop would spend 1d4+1 really quick effective rounds unable to act, and then the Timestop would end, and he'd have to spend the rest of that round in real time also unable to act (which means that he used a couple of high-level spells to incapacitate himself for a round). Can anyone give me an argument for why the spells should not be interpreted in this way?

Icewalker
2007-11-16, 07:36 PM
Well, the idea that celerity is borrowing time from the future suggests that you are right, yeah. Didn't think of that. Didn't know of the time stop trick either though.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-16, 07:40 PM
That's an interesting point, Chronos. Brilliant, in fact.

I didn't really think about it before, either, but now that you mention it, your interpretation makes more actual sense than the popular one. And while it wouldn't make wizards not broken, it would certainly eliminate one broken combination altogether without even removing anything from the game or ... really even houseruling (since I'd think this can be called an interpretation of the RAW and not a houserule).

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-16, 07:41 PM
Nope, doesn't work as you describe it. The celerity daze comes in AFTER you take the extra action. The timestop is the extra action-so the celerity daze comes in after the timestop. It neither comes in for 1 round within the timestop nor does it keep you incapacitated as you describe it.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 07:42 PM
But I've been thinking about this, and I'm not sure it works.

You haven't been thinking about this. Beliel the Leveler (or however it's spelled) just told you this.

And yes, Celerity time comes after Time Stop finishes. That's Why a Wizard is advised to have things finished up by the time his Time Stop ends. Generally it is assumed that either, the Wizard can end his turn far enough away to be safe (flying away from a Meleer while casting spells or using a DD/teleport at the end) or the 5 rounds of spellcasting right there at the beginning of the fight make up for the Wizards missed round. (IE you start in a Evard's Black Tentacles, Solid Fogged, Forcecage.)

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 07:45 PM
I didn't really think about it before, either, but now that you mention it, your interpretation makes more actual sense than the popular one. And while it wouldn't make wizards not broken, it would certainly eliminate one broken combination altogether without even removing anything from the game or ... really even houseruling (since I'd think this can be called an interpretation of the RAW and not a houserule).

He would have a great interpretation if it was indeed his. Check the Unlucky Wizard thread to see where he found this out.

EDIT:Nevermind, I misread, it really his Interpretation. It's just also exceedingly wrong. The Actual Time Stop is still part of the Standard action it was cast in, so the Wizard would not lose that action. That's like saying that anytime a Wizard casts Celerity he then is dazed during the action provided by Celerity.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-16, 07:49 PM
He would have a great interpretation if it was indeed his. Check the Unlucky Wizard thread to see where he found this out.

Ah.

Well, I like it regardless of the source. I think I'd use it if I were ever insane enough to run a game in which I actually allowed those two completely broken spells to exist in the first place.

But as a player, I'd happily exploit Celerity/Time Stop if the DM chose to leave them in as is. I'd state my intentions first, not just sneak it in, and make sure he/she fully understood the implications ... but after that, well ... that's why it's the DM's job to keep the game under control. And that's why I'd personally never allow those spells into any game, probably not even an epic one.

But if I lost my mind and did, I'd use this interpretation in order to neuter the Celerity/Time Stop combination.

Idea Man
2007-11-16, 07:50 PM
Celerity gives the caster a standard action, which he may use as he sees fit, then gets hit with the penalty. Timestop happens within that standard action, so should be unaffected by the secondary effect. By that line of thinking, the wizard gets off his set of impressive spells, then has to wait a round before finishing off his foe or reacting to his allies.

I could live with that. :smallamused:

In my opinion, however, the wizard can't do anything preemptive if he doesn't know exactly what's happening, and from where. If he has to wait until attacked, the other guy is already performing an action. By default, the wizard can't take an action at the same time, so has to go afterwards, since two people can't go at the same time. If the wizard casts celerity first, without a target, he has to rely on a much more defensive array of spells, assuming he doesn't just teleport away.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-16, 07:57 PM
That's like saying that anytime a Wizard casts Celerity he then is dazed during the action provided by Celerity.

Except it isn't, because if that were true, the wizard could never cast Time Stop at all (you cannot cast spells while under the effects of the "dazed" condition). Instead, it's like saying that anytime a wizard casts Celerity, said wizard is then dazed immediately after performing the action provided by Celerity. IIRC, that's supported by the RAW.

deadseashoals
2007-11-16, 07:58 PM
If you do interpret it that way, wouldn't it make more sense to say that because the time stop rounds are accelerated time (1d4+1 rounds that happen in essentially no time at all), that the wizard would be dazed on his next REAL round? Meaning:

balor rolls initiative, gets a 19
wizard rolls initiative, gets a 17
wizard casts celerity
immediate standard: wizard casts time stop, rolls a 2
time stop round 1: do something
time stop round 2: do something
time stop round 3: do something
balor goes (19): does something
wizard goes (17): does nothing, is dazed

As opposed to the literal RAW, which is:

balor rolls initiative, gets a 19
wizard rolls initiative, gets a 17
wizard casts celerity
immediate standard: wizard casts time stop, rolls a 2
time stop round 1: does nothing, is dazed
time stop round 2: do something
time stop round 3: do something
balor goes (19): does something
wizard goes (17): do something

Or your interpretation, which is:

balor rolls initiative, gets a 19
wizard rolls initiative, gets a 17
wizard casts celerity
immediate standard: wizard casts time stop, rolls a 2
time stop round 1: does nothing, is dazed
time stop round 2: does nothing, is dazed
time stop round 3: does nothing, is dazed
balor goes (19): does something
wizard goes (17): does something

To all those who are complaining about celerity and time stop, why do you allow celerity in your games??? It's broken as hell. Anything that manipulates turns and initiatives needs to be scrutinzed extra carefully, and all of the celerity spells (except lesser celerity) do not pass the balance test. They don't even come close. So instead of questionable RAI interpretations, please, for everyone's sake, just don't play with celerity. If we ignore it, it will go away! Seriously.

tyckspoon
2007-11-16, 07:59 PM
In my opinion, however, the wizard can't do anything preemptive if he doesn't know exactly what's happening, and from where. If he has to wait until attacked, the other guy is already performing an action. By default, the wizard can't take an action at the same time, so has to go afterwards, since two people can't go at the same time. If the wizard casts celerity first, without a target, he has to rely on a much more defensive array of spells, assuming he doesn't just teleport away.

Immediate actions (like Celerity and a lot of other defensive spells and abilities that have been printed since swift/immediate actions were introduced) specifically have the ability to interrupt an action that is already happening. So no, two people can't go at the same time, but by using an immediate action the wizard can steal priority and put the other guy's action on hold while he does whatever.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-16, 08:00 PM
By default, the wizard can't take an action at the same time, so has to go afterwards, since two people can't go at the same time. If the wizard casts celerity first, without a target, he has to rely on a much more defensive array of spells, assuming he doesn't just teleport away.

Not quite. Free actions, Immediate Actions and Readied actions can all interrupt other actions.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 08:02 PM
Except it isn't, because if that were true, the wizard could never cast Time Stop at all (you cannot cast spells while under the effects of the "dazed" condition). Instead, it's like saying that anytime a wizard casts Celerity, said wizard is then dazed immediately after performing the action provided by Celerity. IIRC, that's supported by the RAW.

Right, but what you are missing is that Time Stop (the entire 5 rounds) is part of the single Standard action. You get 5 rounds of time that all take place within the standard action you used to cast it.

So if you say the Wizard is dazed during Time Stop, then you are saying that he is dazed during the standard action granted by Celerity.

@at Deadseashoals

Your first example is what actually happens. Some people are under the mistaken assumption that the third one is the case, and some people like to try the trickiest wordings they can to nerf spell combos instead of just admitting that they are broken and dealing with that (they are wrong in this case, as in most.)

Crow
2007-11-16, 08:04 PM
Nevermind.

AKA_Bait
2007-11-16, 08:06 PM
Immediate actions (like Celerity and a lot of other defensive spells and abilities that have been printed since swift/immediate actions were introduced) specifically have the ability to interrupt an action that is already happening. So no, two people can't go at the same time, but by using an immediate action the wizard can steal priority and put the other guy's action on hold while he does whatever.

Hence my somewhat off topic question: What happens in the Wiz on Wiz action when both cast Celerity?

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 08:08 PM
This combo does not work at our house. You borrowed a standard action to cast that time-stop, real time (actually you borrowed a full-round action, since that is what you're dazed for). Since time hasn't changed, you're just super fast, you get dazed for the same "real time", meaning the whole duration of Time Stop.

But the entire 5 rounds of Time stop take place within the action granted by Celerity, so you could not possibly be dazed for that time, since what you are actually doing is borrowing a standard action, and then speeding up that same standard action to do stuff in. Then when you finish that standard action (Time Stop ends) you are then dazed for a full round.

EDIT:Nevermind why?

Crow
2007-11-16, 08:09 PM
Hence my somewhat off topic question: What happens in the Wiz on Wiz action when both cast Celerity?


I've been giving it to whoever casts it last. Odd as that may seem.

As an aside, if someone runs Battlemagic Perception 24/7, they can kill this combo before it starts with an immediate counterspell.

Crow
2007-11-16, 08:11 PM
EDIT:Nevermind why?

Nevermind I just put in 14 hours at work and I was talking crazy talk.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-16, 08:11 PM
What happens in the Wiz on Wiz action when both cast Celerity?
Whoever casts celerity first loses-because the other casts celerity to interrupt his celerity. Sort of like counterspelling in Magic: the Gathering. That is why two wizards fighting against eachother that both have celerity will never cast celerity-because whoever casts celerity first will lose.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-16, 08:11 PM
Right, but what you are missing is that Time Stop (the entire 5 rounds) is part of the single Standard action. You get 5 rounds of time that all take place within the standard action you used to cast it.

Actually, no, you don't.

What you do is spend a single standard action to cast the spell, and then, immediately following that standard action, and before anyone else can act, you get a special 2-5 round (or straight 5-round, if maximized) extra period during which you may act.

Bear with me here:

You begin casting Time Stop. Standard action begins. During this time, an immediate action, such as Celerity or a Reactive Counterspell counter, can interrupt you. You're in the middle of your standard action, but you haven't completed it yet. Time being stopped isn't actually part of that standard action. It won't stop until you complete the action.

You finish casting Time Stop. End standard action. Yes, the standard action has ended. It's done. Over. No more standard action remains for time being stopped to be a part of. Now time immediately stops, now that your standard action has been completed and not one nanosecond before; now you may immediately take 2-5 free rounds, or 5 rounds if maximized.

Tequila Sunrise
2007-11-16, 08:15 PM
But I've been thinking about this, and I'm not sure it works.

I'd say it's a DM call, as it can really be argued either way. If a player did start abusing the combo, I'd consider it perfectly acceptable to rule the situation your way solely on the premise of balance.

Chronos
2007-11-16, 08:23 PM
You haven't been thinking about this. Beliel the Leveler (or however it's spelled) just told you this.You have nothing but my word for this, so I won't blame you if you don't believe me, but I've been thinking about this for a few days, and I actually posted this thread before I saw Belial's post (yeah, I was surprised to see it come up so quickly after I posted). His interpretation is different from both the interpretation I've seen used most (that the Celerity uses up one of your 1d4+1 rounds) and mine (that the combo is useless), and I would have mentioned his interpretation in my OP if I had seen it.

And my interpretation relies on the assumption that the accelerated time starts just after the action when the Timestop is cast, giving the Celerity stun a chance to kick in (as Nowhere Girl described).

Gralamin
2007-11-16, 08:31 PM
Hence my somewhat off topic question: What happens in the Wiz on Wiz action when both cast Celerity?

Logically, it would function like the "Stack" from Magic the Gathering. For Example:

Initiative rolled: Wiz 1: 5, Wiz 2: 20
Wizard 1 casts Celerity (Priority 1)
Wizard 2 in Response casts Celerity (Priority 1, Wiz 1 Celerity has been bumped down on the stack, leaving it at Priority 2)
Wizard 2 timestops and does something for X rounds. Timestop ends.
Wizard 1 is now bumped up to Priority 1, so his Celerity comes into play.

Taffimai
2007-11-16, 08:33 PM
And at our house, it would look like this:

balor rolls initiative, gets a 19
wizard rolls initiative, gets a 17
wizard casts celerity
immediate standard: wizard casts time stop, rolls a 2
time stop round 1: does nothing, is dazed
time stop round 2: does nothing, is dazed
time stop round 3: does nothing, is dazed
balor goes (19): does something
wizard goes (17): does nothing, is dazed

The description of time stop specifically says that time does not actually stop, so after you use your standard action to cast the spell, you're dazed until one real round has passed. This includes the rounds in time stop, since they're not 'real'. We don't consider them to be part of the standard action, either. Time flows on, very very slowly, but as Celerity wasn't cast during time stop, its 'one round' moves at normal speed.

We reached this conclusion after a wizard cast time stop while caught in an acid cloud. Our DM thought he should get acid damage for every round in time stop, the wizard thought he should get the damage only once. The wizard won, but at the cost of forever being dazed during a celerity+time stop.

Suzuro
2007-11-16, 08:55 PM
I'd have to agree that the combo is useless (Unless of course, you enjoy doing nothing in a few free rounds). I see it as the time stop taking place after the standard action is done.

As I see it, it's kind of like a super haste, the wizard starts moving much, much faster than everybody else, but it doesn't take effect until after casting it, for instance, if you were to cast, say, mage armor and someone got an attack of opportunity, you wouldn't get the extra AC for that attack, would you? So why would you count as using all five-ish rounds while casting time stop?

Of course, these are just my opinions, and the choice is ultimately up to the DM, if he thinks it is too broken.

-Suzuro

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 09:12 PM
Actually, no, you don't.

What you do is spend a single standard action to cast the spell, and then, immediately following that standard action, and before anyone else can act, you get a special 2-5 round (or straight 5-round, if maximized) extra period during which you may act.

Which would be a fine interpretation if D&D did not have a system of measuring time. But it does. See actions are followed by other actions. So unless a new action starts, then what happens during the spell is considered to have happened during the action it was cast.

When a Wizard casts Fly during a Standard action, he is assumed to already have it active before his standard action ends. Same with Time Stop. If it said, "then as a ______ action you have X rounds of apparent time," or "on you next action/before/whatever you have X rounds of apparent time" that would be some indication that your standard action had ended, and some other action was beginning.

But your standard action ends the exact second that some other action begins.

Of course I don't see why the Wizard shouldn't just chill out during an apparent round (they are exactly like normal rounds for the Wizard and he has a full round there). The only reason I do it differently is because I see both after and during the Time Stop as equally valid, but after is more fun because it means that he really does suffer from Celerity, even if he can prepare himself first.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 09:14 PM
As I see it, it's kind of like a super haste, the wizard starts moving much, much faster than everybody else, but it doesn't take effect until after casting it, for instance, if you were to cast, say, mage armor and someone got an attack of opportunity, you wouldn't get the extra AC for that attack, would you? So why would you count as using all five-ish rounds while casting time stop?

The difference is that an AoO goes before you start casting. So yes, you are considered to have Mage Armor up before the next action begins.

Corlis
2007-11-16, 09:16 PM
The SRD saysabout TS:

A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends.
As it says that only spells that have a duration longer than the remaining duration of TS continue after the TS ends I would infer that your magic is assumed to travel at the same speed that you do during the TS; i.e., if you cast a spell with 3 rounds left in your TS, the 3 rounds of your TS will consume 3 rounds of the duration of your spell. I believe that this means that your Celerity-daze follows similar reasoning, and that your one round of daze is likewise consumed by one round of TS.

(It could be argued that the spell description from the SRD implies that only spells with an AoE component and a duration have their durations consumed by the TS, but that seems a little odd...)

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-16, 10:23 PM
Which would be a fine interpretation if D&D did not have a system of measuring time. But it does. See actions are followed by other actions. So unless a new action starts, then what happens during the spell is considered to have happened during the action it was cast.

Except there's nothing in the books that specifically agrees with you, and in fact, given the fact that interrupts are possible at all, the rules as written if anything appear to disagree (as I could not use an immediate action to interrupt your standard-action casting if the effects of your spell happened immediately on your beginning the standard action).

In any case, they definitely do not agree with you, to my knowledge. You're basically just pulling randomness out of nowhere now, and I maintain that's the case until you can find something in the RAW that specifically defends what you're saying, which is basically that an action is somehow completed (spell is fully cast) somewhere in the middle of the action itself.

Good luck on that one.

Kaelik
2007-11-16, 10:42 PM
Except there's nothing in the books that specifically agrees with you, and in fact, given the fact that interrupts are possible at all, the rules as written if anything appear to disagree (as I could not use an immediate action to interrupt your standard-action casting if the effects of your spell happened immediately on your beginning the standard action).

In any case, they definitely do not agree with you. You're basically just pulling randomness out of nowhere now, and I maintain that's the case until you can find something in the RAW that specifically defends what you're saying, which is basically that an action is somehow completed (spell is fully cast) somewhere in the middle of the action itself.

Wow. You misrepresented my position twice in the same post. Do you think I said spells are resolved at the beginning of the casting action or the middle?

Or are you just making up your own version of what I said to make it sound wrong?

I said that spells are resolved before the end of the action in which their casting was completed.

If you read the sections of the PHB on Casting Time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime) and The Spell's Result (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#theSpellsResult) it is clear that the effects of a spell come into play as soon as the you are done casting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration) which occurs still during your action. Mage Armor resolves right before the end of your action, likewise, Time Stop rounds occur right before the standard action ends.

JaxGaret
2007-11-16, 10:59 PM
Whoever casts celerity first loses-because the other casts celerity to interrupt his celerity. Sort of like counterspelling in Magic: the Gathering. That is why two wizards fighting against eachother that both have celerity will never cast celerity-because whoever casts celerity first will lose.

That's actually a decent counter to the power of Celerity.

If you cast it at the wrong time, you lose. It brings it right back to Initiative order - which is how I had been adjudicating dual Celerities being cast. Same thing.

Crow
2007-11-16, 11:00 PM
Kaelik, AoO's may or may not happen before you cast the spell, but what's your excuse for counterspells?

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-16, 11:12 PM
Wow. You misrepresented my position twice in the same post. Do you think I said spells are resolved at the beginning of the casting action or the middle?

Or are you just making up your own version of what I said to make it sound wrong?

No, but I'll let your own words cover it:


Time Stop rounds occur right before the standard action ends.

Which can only happen if the spell is complete before the action is complete, or, in simpler terms, spells are resolved in the middle of the casting action.

So, really, I'm just repeating your version for you. Not sure where the confusion lies here, but I'll let you sort it out ...

Dausuul
2007-11-16, 11:16 PM
To all those who are complaining about celerity and time stop, why do you allow celerity in your games??? It's broken as hell. Anything that manipulates turns and initiatives needs to be scrutinzed extra carefully, and all of the celerity spells (except lesser celerity) do not pass the balance test. They don't even come close. So instead of questionable RAI interpretations, please, for everyone's sake, just don't play with celerity. If we ignore it, it will go away! Seriously.

QFT. There is no good reason to allow celerity.

I actually go so far as to ban anything that raises initiative or grants extra actions. (Extra attacks are fine, as are extra uses per round of a specific ability; it's extra actions, usable for anything, that I consider a problem.) So not only is celerity banned, but time stop, White Raven Tactics, the belt of battle, et cetera.

Extra actions are nothing but trouble.

Aquillion
2007-11-16, 11:40 PM
That's actually a decent counter to the power of Celerity.

If you cast it at the wrong time, you lose. It brings it right back to Initiative order - which is how I had been adjudicating dual Celerities being cast. Same thing.That isn't balanced. That's the exact opposite of balanced. It means you have to be able to cast Celerity to be able to compete at all.

BardicDuelist
2007-11-17, 12:54 AM
This seems slightly off topic, but relavant nonetheless:

What about the factotum's ability to use extra standard actions (cunning surge)? If I cast Celerity (even lesser celerity), I can then use this ability (a free action to initiate) as many times as I like (limited only by the number of inspiration points that I have). Would that allow a similar combination to celerity/timestop at level 8? Or would those extra standard actions be considered part of my next turn and make me dazed? If I were to spend two of those standard actions dazed, would I then be able to use any I happen to have the IP to spend on freely?

deadseashoals
2007-11-17, 05:31 AM
Hey, you know what, who cares? Even if the strange interpretation is right, just cast greater celerity and be done with it. There's no way you could twist that one to be dazed during your time stop. Or just don't frickin' play with celerity.

Chronos
2007-11-17, 01:08 PM
Hey, you know what, who cares? Even if the strange interpretation is right, just cast greater celerity and be done with it.I'm not familiar with that one. Care to elaborate?

deadseashoals
2007-11-17, 02:46 PM
I'm not familiar with that one. Care to elaborate?

Greater celerity gives you a full round action, a standard action plus a move action, or two move actions. After the completion of said action(s), you are dazed until the end of your turn.

Casting time stop is a standard action, and thus, you leave the move action until after your 1d4+1 rounds from time stop, and your greater celerity actions cannot be considered to have ended until you take a move action.

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-17, 05:03 PM
Greater celerity gives you a full round action, a standard action plus a move action, or two move actions. After the completion of said action(s), you are dazed until the end of your turn.

Casting time stop is a standard action, and thus, you leave the move action until after your 1d4+1 rounds from time stop, and your greater celerity actions cannot be considered to have ended until you take a move action.

I don't think it quite works that way. If you choose to forego the move action, the round still ends.

deadseashoals
2007-11-17, 05:30 PM
I don't think it quite works that way. If you choose to forego the move action, the round still ends.

But you're not done with the round. If you choose to cast time stop as your standard action before taking a move action during a normal round, you can still take your move action after the 1d4+1 rounds, so why should it be any different for the actions granted by greater celerity?

Chronos
2007-11-17, 07:12 PM
OK, I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work (beyond DM intervention, such as disallowing the spell). What level is Greater Celerity? We can at least force the wizard to use more high-level spells.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-11-17, 07:27 PM
In Eberron, this doesn't matter because you take bloody Mark of the Dauntless and have done.

Emperor Tippy
2007-11-17, 09:06 PM
Opponents Turn: Celerity + TimeStop
Timestop Round 1
Timestop Round 2
Timestop Round 3
Timestop Round 4
Timestop Round 5
Your Turn: Dazed


You are dazed after all your TimeStop rounds are used up under strict RAW and under RAI.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-18, 12:20 AM
Opponents Turn: Celerity + TimeStop
Timestop Round 1
Timestop Round 2
Timestop Round 3
Timestop Round 4
Timestop Round 5
Your Turn: Dazed


You are dazed after all your TimeStop rounds are used up under strict RAW and under RAI.

We're all aware of that interpretation, but there's nothing inherently wrong with the one suggested by Chronos, even going by the rules as written. Just reposting the classic interpretation as if we were unaware of it doesn't actually invalidate what Chronos is saying.

I do agree with the "simply nix the Celerity line entirely" camp, though.

Kaelik
2007-11-18, 12:31 AM
We're all aware of that interpretation, but there's nothing inherently wrong with the one suggested by Chronos, even going by the rules as written. Just reposting the classic interpretation as if we were unaware of it doesn't actually invalidate what Chronos is saying.

Actually there is something inherently "wrong" with the Chronos is "interpretation" and that is that it is not an interpretation, it is in fact a houserule. Because he is making up something that is said nowhere in the rules. (that being dazed for one round does not equal being dazed for one round) As such, it doesn't really have any bearing on anything that happens outside of his own games.

Cybren
2007-11-18, 02:36 AM
Hey guys, it's magic

leperkhaun
2007-11-18, 05:48 AM
email custsurv and see what they say.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-18, 02:00 PM
email custsurv and see what they say.

They'll just say wizards can do anything they want, especially if it means they win.

I'm more interested in coming up with a logical interpretation without their input. :smallwink:

Chronos
2007-11-18, 02:53 PM
Because he is making up something that is said nowhere in the rules. (that being dazed for one round does not equal being dazed for one round)Both my interpretation and the one quoted by Emperor Tippy agree that the wizard ends up being dazed for one round. The difference of interpretation is in deciding when that one round of daze starts: Tippy and others using that interpretation say that the daze starts after the Timestop "rounds", while I say that the daze starts before the Timestop "rounds".

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-11-18, 03:06 PM
RAI, at least IMO, is Celerity lets you steal 1 round of time from yourself. Timestop is granting you 2-5 rounds of extra time. Neither actually cares about the standard timeflow, they both just affect you. You are Dazed for one round, either in or out of the Timestop, and though I think it points more towards a round in the Timestop, it could easily be the first round after it ends. I think, without us contacting them, though, we'll never know for sure, and it will be Rule 0 that finally decides.

Jack Zander
2007-11-18, 03:27 PM
Here's an easy fix. Celerity dazes you for one round of real time. If you cast timestop, you've spent your standard action from celerity and begin to be dazed for one round real time. Therefore, all the time you would have spent in timestop, you spend dazed.

Reasonable RAI with a quick fix to a borked combo.

Kaelik
2007-11-18, 06:00 PM
Both my interpretation and the one quoted by Emperor Tippy agree that the wizard ends up being dazed for one round. The difference of interpretation is in deciding when that one round of daze starts: Tippy and others using that interpretation say that the daze starts after the Timestop "rounds", while I say that the daze starts before the Timestop "rounds".

Except that if you had a Craft Contingent Time Stop set to trigger when you were stunned, and you were hit with a Ray of Stunning that rolled say a 2 on the d4, then you would be stunned for 3 rounds. And then your Time Stop would activate, and you would be stunned for three rounds of the Time Stop, because things are still happening to you. Time is moving at a certain speed for you. The same with Celerity. If (and I say that Time Stop rounds are part of the action of casting it, precisely because this hurts Wizards more then the alternative) the Time Stop rounds came after the standard action, you would only be dazed for one round of the time stop, and none once you were out. Because, a round=a round. One round does not equal 6 rounds as you seem to imply. Time Stops "Apparent Time" moves at normal speed for you, and so all effects cause or effecting you treat it exactly like normal time. If they did not then you could just say that only 1 spell may be cast a round, so a Wizard can only cast one spell in a Time Stop.

Any assertion that the dazed effect treats a Time Stop round differently then any other round is a house rule.

osyluth
2007-11-18, 06:58 PM
Although it really shouldn't, this combo does work. This is because Time stop doesn't actually stop time; it just makes the caster move really,really fast.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-19, 12:13 AM
Although it really shouldn't, this combo does work. This is because Time stop doesn't actually stop time; it just makes the caster move really,really fast.

Actually, your take on Time Stop supports Chronos's interpretation more than Tippy's because if the caster is just moving really, really fast, then it's definitely true than an incredibly, immeasurably small amount of time immediately begins to pass between the wizard completing the Time Stop casting and the spell's effects (extra effective rounds) ending.

Given the fact that, after casting Celerity, the wizard is only entitled to complete one standard action before immediately being dazed, that would even more certainly mean the wizard is dazed really, really fast for 2-5 effective rounds immediately after completing the spell, which is his one standard action he gets to complete before being dazed.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-11-19, 01:10 AM
Celerity steals time from the wizard. Time stop accelerates time for the wizard. Celerity steals some of that accelerated time. Not that complicated.

Jack Zander
2007-11-19, 02:47 AM
Celerity steals time from the wizard. Time stop accelerates time for the wizard. Celerity steals some of that accelerated time. Not that complicated.

No, it's a lot more complicated than that. I just argued above on why it steals from all of the accelerated time. I suggest you refrain from voicing your unbacked opinion unless you decide to enlighten us all on why you think so.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-11-19, 03:16 AM
Because Celerity affects only your time. Time stop alters your time. Celerity doesn't care that your time is different from that of normal, all it wants is to be paid back for the turn it stole. Accelerated time still counts as multiple rounds from your perspective, so celerity steals it's time and goes on it's way.

Jack Zander
2007-11-19, 03:39 AM
Because Celerity affects only your time. Time stop alters your time. Celerity doesn't care that your time is different from that of normal, all it wants is to be paid back for the turn it stole. Accelerated time still counts as multiple rounds from your perspective, so celerity steals it's time and goes on it's way.

While that is a valid point, nowhere does celerity say it only affects 'your time.' Thus it is not as simple as you seem to think. Otherwise, there would be no debate here.

Kaelik
2007-11-19, 04:39 AM
While that is a valid point, nowhere does celerity say it only affects 'your time.' Thus it is not as simple as you seem to think. Otherwise, there would be no debate here.

Nowhere does Celerity say that it dazes you for a certain amount of time at all. It dazes you for a "round" which while it could be a measurement of time, is really more a measurement of actions. So if you are granted a large number of actions, then Celerity only dazes you for a certain amount of those actions (1 round) not several rounds.

The whole idea that Celerity dazes you for an amount of "time" is based on an "interpretation" of the spell, IE houserule.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-19, 05:50 AM
Nowhere does Celerity say that it dazes you for a certain amount of time at all. It dazes you for a "round" which while it could be a measurement of time, is really more a measurement of actions. So if you are granted a large number of actions, then Celerity only dazes you for a certain amount of those actions (1 round) not several rounds.

The whole idea that Celerity dazes you for an amount of "time" is based on an "interpretation" of the spell, IE houserule.

It says it dazes you for a round -- an actual round, not an apparent round. I'm not aware of any version of Celerity that dazes you only for apparent rounds.

The apparent rounds that happen after Time Stop is cast are all packed tightly into a single real round. That real round is the time during which you're dazed; ergo, you're dazed for the entire Time Stop.

You can allow people to only be dazed for one apparent round, or to be dazed after the spell effect caused by Time Stop ends rather than before, but either of those two would be an "interpretation" of the spell, i.e. houserule.

Vasdenjas
2007-11-19, 09:54 AM
It dazes you for a "round" which while it could be a measurement of time, is really more a measurement of actions. So if you are granted a large number of actions, then Celerity only dazes you for a certain amount of those actions (1 round) not several rounds.

The whole idea that Celerity dazes you for an amount of "time" is based on an "interpretation" of the spell, IE houserule.

That's funny. It seems your "interpretation" of what a round is really is just your own houserule in disguise.



THE COMBAT ROUND
Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world. A round presents an opportunity for each character involved in a combat situation to take an action.

Not 6 seconds of apparent time, not a grouping of specific actions. 6 second in the game world. If you are dazed for 6 seconds in the game world, anything occurring within those 6 seconds would be affected.

Kaelik
2007-11-19, 01:28 PM
It says it dazes you for a round -- an actual round, not an apparent round. I'm not aware of any version of Celerity that dazes you only for apparent rounds.

The apparent rounds that happen after Time Stop is cast are all packed tightly into a single real round. That real round is the time during which you're dazed; ergo, you're dazed for the entire Time Stop.

You can allow people to only be dazed for one apparent round, or to be dazed after the spell effect caused by Time Stop ends rather than before, but either of those two would be an "interpretation" of the spell, i.e. houserule.

So you believe that during the entire duration of Time Stop a Wizard can only cast one spell and one quickened Spell? After all, it says under casting spells that a Wizard can only cast one spell a round.

There's no way of getting around it, Time Stop's apparent rounds are treated as real rounds for all effects relating to the caster. Including this one.

tainsouvra
2007-11-19, 02:09 PM
The SRD saysabout TS:
A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends.As it says that only spells that have a duration longer than the remaining duration of TS continue after the TS ends I would infer that your magic is assumed to travel at the same speed that you do during the TS; i.e., if you cast a spell with 3 rounds left in your TS, the 3 rounds of your TS will consume 3 rounds of the duration of your spell. I believe that this means that your Celerity-daze follows similar reasoning, and that your one round of daze is likewise consumed by one round of TS.

(It could be argued that the spell description from the SRD implies that only spells with an AoE component and a duration have their durations consumed by the TS, but that seems a little odd...) On the first page, no less, but no response? I wish Corlis' post hadn't been so blithely ignored. It hits on an essential point of this discussion--a round passing for the Wizard is a round passing for the Wizard. The interpretation that would leave the Wizard unable to act for more than one round (for the Wizard) fails to take that into account, and is thus completely incorrect.

Again, a round passing for the Wizard is a round passing for the Wizard. There is nothing in the rules as written nor the rules as intended that contradicts this practical non-statement.

Edit: just disallow Celerity in your games :smalltongue: