The Foundation : It is Here, it is Big, It is Epic

[Cikomyr2]

So I just caught the first episode of the Foundation

Man. This is everything I always wanted to see in a big, expansive Sci Fi Epic Saga.

I love so far. Anyone else caught it?

[JadedDM]

I've watched the first two episodes so far. And I like it. It adds a ton of world-building that wasn't in the books.

Actually, you know what it really reminds me of? Krypton. I really liked that show, too, and this feels awfully close to it for some reason.

[Anonymouswizard]

I've not watched it, and honestly am too wary to. I'm worried it's going to be changed into 'spaceship's shoots laser' science fiction, whereas I like the stories for being about the importance of political and economic factors to history.

Plus considering that this series is where 'violence is the last refuge of the incompetent' comes from I got turned off when the advert showed multiple space battles and a ground battle.

[Cikomyr2]

I've not watched it, and honestly am too wary to. I'm worried it's going to be changed into 'spaceship's shoots laser' science fiction, whereas I like the stories for being about the importance of political and economic factors to history.

Let me tell you right away that the Grandiosity of the series so far is about the huge imperial institutions. There hasn't been any starship pew pew yet, and the series doesn't look like it will focus necessarily on THAT




Plus considering that this series is where 'violence is the last refuge of the incompetent' comes from I got turned off when the advert showed multiple space battles and a ground battle.

If I may just spoil a little thing for you. It's not a big deal, but it may reassure you.

I believe the series will follow both the ascension of the Foundation, and also the spiraling of the Empire as parallel plots. So the space battles/ground battles you seen are probably.. the story of the Fall of Trantor? Which is inevitable?

if I could venture a guess about the series creators' intent, they probably want to show the contrast of the rising Foundation that is built on practical matters like trade, technology and diplomacy vs the falling Empire which has relied too long on either promise or display of violence.

[Anonymouswizard]

Let me tell you right away that the Grandiosity of the series so far is about the huge imperial institutions. There hasn't been any starship pew pew yet, and the series doesn't look like it will focus necessarily on THAT

Possibly. I don't have the ability to watch it right now anyway, it's just that the promotional material I had seen seemed very unfoundation.


If I may just spoil a little thing for you. It's not a big deal, but it may reassure you.

I believe the series will follow both the ascension of the Foundation, and also the spiraling of the Empire as parallel plots. So the space battles/ground battles you seen are probably.. the story of the Fall of Trantor? Which is inevitable?

if I could venture a guess about the series creators' intent, they probably want to show the contrast of the rising Foundation that is built on practical matters like trade, technology and diplomacy vs the falling Empire which has relied too long on either promise or display of violence.

I honestly wondered if they were taking it of context clips that would be down some Seldom"s trial is going on.

Another work? I've found out that it's apparently planned for eight series. Even assuming UK series lengths (six to twelve episodes) I'm not quite sure that the original trilogy could be told in more than one series per book without becoming bloated. Are Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth really large enough to justify it?

Although if we'd reached the second book space battles would make more sense, because the first story kind of makes the point in your spoiler.

[DataNinja]

Another work? I've found out that it's apparently planned for eight series. Even assuming UK series lengths (six to twelve episodes) I'm not quite sure that the original trilogy could be told in more than one series per book without becoming bloated. Are Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth really large enough to justify it?
Yeah, they're both a fair bit more sizeable than the original books, Between 1.5 times and twice as long, ish.

[Cikomyr2]

Having seen the 2nd episode, i can now confirm that there was pew pew. And that I was seemingly right in its role in its story so far

Still very solid. There's a few derails regarding Hari Seldon you will understand if you read the book. And if you haven't read the book then I am sure it's just a pending mystery

[Spacewolf]

I've not watched it, and honestly am too wary to. I'm worried it's going to be changed into 'spaceship's shoots laser' science fiction, whereas I like the stories for being about the importance of political and economic factors to history.


This is something I'm curious how they are going to work in.

So in the books it's repeatedly said the Sheldon plan can't account for individuals yet the turn of ages always hinges on the actions of single people. This is then explained in later books by

The plan being a fraud and being directed and altered by people with the ability to push people into their proper place.

So I wonder how they are going to set this up without it seeming to come from left field as even the first time I was reading the books I noticed the Sheldon plan doesn't fit with what we are being shown but wasn't expecting psychics, at least until the Mule sets them up.

Obviously this is all ontop of setting a series across multiple time periods stretching a thousand or so years.

[Cikomyr2]

This is something I'm curious how they are going to work in.

So in the books it's repeatedly said the Sheldon plan can't account for individuals yet the turn of ages always hinges on the actions of single people. This is then explained in later books by

The plan being a fraud and being directed and altered by people with the ability to push people into their proper place.

So I wonder how they are going to set this up without it seeming to come from left field as even the first time I was reading the books I noticed the Sheldon plan doesn't fit with what we are being shown but wasn't expecting psychics, at least until the Mule sets them up.

Obviously this is all ontop of setting a series across multiple time periods stretching a thousand or so years.

Well...

Do you mind pointing out exactly the situation you mean where the Seldon plan was dependant solely on the action of individuals where we couldn't rationalize as "the situation was ripe for this solution and someone stepped up to seize it"?

Like.. the Four Kingdoms already had a wary fear of the Foundation's science and they wouldn't accept proper formal training outside of a religious context. Then that religion became the chain to political restrain the Four Kingdom's individual strenght.

Then came Mallow; where he displayed that the technological edge in consumer goods trading would inevitably lead to any commercial partner becoming dependant on the Foundation.

Then there was the Bel Riose invasion, where it was more about the Empire's inability to wage any war of conquest without exposing itself to massive instability that would inevitably cause it to collapse.

[The Glyphstone]

I am curious how they're going to pull off the sort of long-form storytelling that Foundation involves without either boring the viewers or condensing massive amounts of in-between time into rapid-fire events.

[Wintermoot]

I have thoroughly enjoyed the first two episodes. It certainly feels like its keeping the spirit of the book(s) while skewing off into is own thing. I would argue that being a necessity to turn this into a series.

The original "novel" foundation, was actually five short stories published over a decade in the 40s and early 50s. The stories were not released in order they appear in the novel. In fact the first book of the novel was the last published because it wasn't published until the novel was released.

Each story is separated by a gulf of centuries and each provide a window into the long term story of this foundation that is preserving human knowledge through a period of dark age in order to speed up the rebuilding of the human civilization.

So, like I said, it skews from the narrative in order to facilitate the series. BUT I was refreshingly excited to see how it did it and what it preserved.

Below, in spoiler, I will discuss the first two episodes in some depth and how they differ from the novel



The first episode opens on young Gaal Dornick. In the novel (published in the 50s) Gaal was, of course, a white male. Here the character is a biracial young woman. I'm sure many pundits will be up in arms over this even though the character's race and gender bear no significance to the character's role in the story.

Gaal is from a backwater luddite planet where scientists and engineers are executed to preserve the old ways. The planet is flooding due to a global collapse. Gaal secretly taught herself Math and somehow won a math contest by solving an unsolvable problem and is now set to travel to Trantor, the capital of the galactic empire, to study with the mathemetician Hari Seldon. This tracks with the novel, although there is some religious stuff I don't recall. Gaal has to remove her face stones, symbols of her religion, and accept basically exile to be allowed to go.

She gets on the ship, freezes for the journey. However somehow on the journey, she awakens and sees teh bizarre unreality of travelling at FTL speeds before being put back under by the genetically engineered crew that are evolved to survive the trip while not asleep. It is implied that this will be important later.

When she gets to Trantor, she gets on the space elevator for the trip from orbit to surface which will take 14 hours. She meets a man who seems jovial and nice, but is really there to spy on her for the imperial agents.

When she gets to the surface she is met by Hari's assistant, and adopted son, Raych. who brings her to Hari at an immense library. There Hari shows her his magic box that contains his entire psychohistory formulae and explains what psychohistory is. A mathematical model that lets you predict the long term future of large populations. It predicts that the empire will collapse and fall within 500 years and lead to a 30,000 year period of dark age to follow.

Obviously, this is alarming to the powers that be. So Hari knows that he and Gaal are to be arrested. Why? Because they empire wants Gaal, the only other person in the universe who can understand Hari's work, to prove he is wrong.

There is a budding romantic subplot between Gaal and Raych.

So, they are arrested and we meet "the emperors". Clones of the first emperor, Cleon the first, There are three of them. A 70 year old version called "Brother Dusk", a 40 year old version called "Brother Day" and a 10 year old version called "Brother Dawn". This is how it always goes. Dusk serves as an advisor to Day who is the nominal actual emperor, while Dawn is taught and learns at their heels. Then every 30 years a new clone is birthed and everyone adjusts up a peg and the, then 90 year old Brother Dusk is put to pasture. There is also an android adjunct who serves as nursemaid and aide-de-camp for the emperor. The last living android known who has been alive since Cleon the 1st and is, really, the actual power behind the throne.

Here, Hari explains what his theory tells and suggests that the period of dark ages can be shortened to a mere 1000 years if he's allowed to build a foundation to store knowledge to make it through the dark period. He also says that the collapse can be postponed if the empire gives up cloning and accepts new blood and new ideas into the emperorship. An idea which was never going to have any traction.

While this is going on, there is a subplot. Two warring sub-states from the periphery have been fighting each other and their war accidentally killed some of the empire's adjuncts. Representatives of the two nations arrive at Trantor to plead their cases to the Emperor so he will decide the war in their favor. They bring gifts subtlety telling the emperor what they will give him if he decides in their favor.

while they are on planet, terrorists, who APPEAR to be from the two warring sub-states blow up the sky elevator. This is a great scene. We see the giant cable, severed from orbit, as it falls and begins the slow weeks long process of circling and recircling the planet like a garotte.

Partially because of this and for other reasons, the emperor decides to NOT execute Hari and Gaal but to exile them to the frozen rock, in the periphery called Terminus to "build their foundation"

As they leave, Hari tells Gaal that this had been his plan all along, that he intended the emperor to send him there


end.

So is this the same as the short story/novel? No. The basics are the same. Hari's psychohistory is the same, the story of how he tricks the empire into helping him create the foundation is the same. Gaal's role is the same so far, as Hari's eventual replacement.

But there are differences in order to make is a series/movie. The faceless "commitee" that ran the empire in the novel (a play on things like the senate commitee on unamerican activities from the time IRL) is replaced by the Emperor trio. A subplot is added around terrorism, religion and the peripheral war which all serve to add flavor to the bare sketch of an empire from the novel.

I think its a success. I'm happy to state that in episodes two and three we actually move forward 30 years. The first of the time jumps that will get us through the fall of the empire and the dark age period. I didn't know if they would do this because you can't keep the same cast, but they have so far. So I am very hopeful.

[Spacewolf]

Well...

Do you mind pointing out exactly the situation you mean where the Seldon plan was dependant solely on the action of individuals where we couldn't rationalize as "the situation was ripe for this solution and someone stepped up to seize it"?

Like.. the Four Kingdoms already had a wary fear of the Foundation's science and they wouldn't accept proper formal training outside of a religious context. Then that religion became the chain to political restrain the Four Kingdom's individual strenght.

Then came Mallow; where he displayed that the technological edge in consumer goods trading would inevitably lead to any commercial partner becoming dependant on the Foundation.

Then there was the Bel Riose invasion, where it was more about the Empire's inability to wage any war of conquest without exposing itself to massive instability that would inevitably cause it to collapse.


It's been awhile since I've read the books but Mallow in particular stood out as if he'd failed the plan would have gone to nothing and him suddenly having the answer he needed pop into his head that being to use the UV scanner seemed very convenient. The Invasion and paranoia of the empire could very easily be seen as the work of the Second foundation considering their base. Is four kingdoms when in the first book the guy decides not to do anything even though as a younger person he was the opposite and would have attacked, while it is likely partly due to him getting older there was definitely a moment where everything hinged on his actions which would have been too specific for the plan to account for. Then it's explained in Second foundation that the grand overarching plan doesn't exist in it's entirety and it's more like a constantly changing set of guidelines that have to be kept within a certain variable.

As I said it's been awhile since I read but I'm sure a line keeps coming up like, suddenly the answer became clear. Which while it's not spelled out I always read to be the person getting the thought put into their head.

[Anonymouswizard]

Hardin and the Seldon Crisises (Crisi? Crisodes?) It's interesting. The first Crisis follows the established rules of psychohistory really well, the Foundation is given exactly the situation it needs to not act until it only has one course of action, while both the Empire and the Four Kingdoms are large enough to fall into easily mappable patterns. Although the exact number of kingdoms doesn't matter, they'll likely DVR in a similar way. Sardin's contribution to solving the crisis is basically ensuring that other kingdoms have enough information that they fall into their assigned roles.

The second Crisis he takes a more active hand in, but he's still just making sure the historic forces are pointing the right way. Plus even without his little show it's entirely likely that the priesthood would, as a mass of people, have turned off the nuclear generators until the Foundation was no longer under threat. If anything he hastens the course of history by a negligible few weeks.

Plus when you think of how large the Seldon Plan is and how many people are agents of the Foundation a couple of centuries down the line you can start making good estimations at when somebody will have the right idea, but not who.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Hardin and the Seldon Crisises (Crisi? Crisodes?) It's interesting. The first Crisis follows the established rules of psychohistory really well, the Foundation is given exactly the situation it needs to not act until it only has one course of action, while both the Empire and the Four Kingdoms are large enough to fall into easily mappable patterns. Although the exact number of kingdoms doesn't matter, they'll likely DVR in a similar way. Sardin's contribution to solving the crisis is basically ensuring that other kingdoms have enough information that they fall into their assigned roles.

The second Crisis he takes a more active hand in, but he's still just making sure the historic forces are pointing the right way. Plus even without his little show it's entirely likely that the priesthood would, as a mass of people, have turned off the nuclear generators until the Foundation was no longer under threat. If anything he hastens the course of history by a negligible few weeks.

Plus when you think of how large the Seldon Plan is and how many people are agents of the Foundation a couple of centuries down the line you can start making good estimations at when somebody will have the right idea, but not who.

In fact of all the non-psychohistorians, it could be argued that Hardin had the best grasp of what was going on, to the extent that he deliberately tried to make sure he didn't let himself be diverted by the knowledge he had. The secret was just to do nothing until there was no alternative.

On the other hand we had Deevers, who did his best to plan and undermine Roise's schemes, and it turned out that apart from an exciting story he had no effect whatsoever - Roise was doomed no matter what happened.

[Anonymouswizard]

In fact of all the non-psychohistorians, it could be argued that Hardin had the best grasp of what was going on, to the extent that he deliberately tried to make sure he didn't let himself be diverted by the knowledge he had. The secret was just to do nothing until there was no alternative.

On the other hand we had Deevers, who did his best to plan and undermine Roise's schemes, and it turned out that apart from an exciting story he had no effect whatsoever - Roise was doomed no matter what happened.

Hardin is also the only member of the Foundation until after the Mule to have even the slightest understanding of psychology, so he has an edge. But yes, after the first Crisis where he tries to act, gets endlessly stalled, and then dress exactly how it plays out when he has no alternative. By the time the third story starts he seems to have a pretty good grasp on what the Crisis is going to be, how it has to be solved, and spends most of his time delaying until he can only employ that solution.

[Cikomyr2]

It's been awhile since I've read the books but Mallow in particular stood out as if he'd failed the plan would have gone to nothing and him suddenly having the answer he needed pop into his head that being to use the UV scanner seemed very convenient. The Invasion and paranoia of the empire could very easily be seen as the work of the Second foundation considering their base. Is four kingdoms when in the first book the guy decides not to do anything even though as a younger person he was the opposite and would have attacked, while it is likely partly due to him getting older there was definitely a moment where everything hinged on his actions which would have been too specific for the plan to account for. Then it's explained in Second foundation that the grand overarching plan doesn't exist in it's entirety and it's more like a constantly changing set of guidelines that have to be kept within a certain variable.

As I said it's been awhile since I read but I'm sure a line keeps coming up like, suddenly the answer became clear. Which while it's not spelled out I always read to be the person getting the thought put into their head.

Well


The entire Saga specific to Korellia was.. A ripple in the river?

It didn't matter if Mallow won or lost his specific political bid, or his trial. He was trying to surf on the massive wave he believed was inevitable. He could have been swallowed by it and be forgotten, and another hero of the Foundation would have emerged at roughly the same time

But all the intrigue.. Was just salad dressing so we could get to investigate the core propositions that made any conflict of an Imperial Client State an inevitable win to the Foundation. And because Asimov wanted a court drama.

[monomer]

This is something I'm curious how they are going to work in.

So in the books it's repeatedly said the Sheldon plan can't account for individuals yet the turn of ages always hinges on the actions of single people. This is then explained in later books by

The plan being a fraud and being directed and altered by people with the ability to push people into their proper place.

So I wonder how they are going to set this up without it seeming to come from left field as even the first time I was reading the books I noticed the Sheldon plan doesn't fit with what we are being shown but wasn't expecting psychics, at least until the Mule sets them up.

Obviously this is all ontop of setting a series across multiple time periods stretching a thousand or so years.

In the second episode Seldon's protege, Gaal, reveals that after reviewing Seldon's psychohistory model she can tell isn't complete and there are some holes, though she doesn't know how important those holes are. So that implies there is some room for post-Seldon patching of the model.

[Fyraltari]

This is something I'm curious how they are going to work in.

So in the books it's repeatedly said the Sheldon plan can't account for individuals yet the turn of ages always hinges on the actions of single people. This is then explained in later books by

The plan being a fraud and being directed and altered by people with the ability to push people into their proper place.

So I wonder how they are going to set this up without it seeming to come from left field as even the first time I was reading the books I noticed the Sheldon plan doesn't fit with what we are being shown but wasn't expecting psychics, at least until the Mule sets them up.

Obviously this is all ontop of setting a series across multiple time periods stretching a thousand or so years.

The plan isn't a fraud, though? If memory serves, the Second Foundation only intervened with the First after the whole Mule fiasco and had up until then concentrated their efforts on the vestigial Empire of Trantor because the Plan only had a negligible chance of failing before that point. The plan's success wasn't guaranteed true, but that's because psychohistory deals in probabilities not certainties.

[Anonymouswizard]

The plan isn't a fraud, though? If memory serves, the Second Foundation only intervened with the First after the whole Mule fiasco and had up until then concentrated their efforts on the vestigial Empire of Trantor because the Plan only had a negligible chance of failing before that point. The plan's success wasn't guaranteed true, but that's because psychohistory deals in probabilities not certainties.

That was my impression. They had spies in First Foundation space, just to make sure everything was on track, but their actual meddling was in the Empire.

I believe that the Second Foundation also spends less time meddling via their psychic powers, and more time using psychohistory to build failsafes into the plan. If they even have psychic powers, the explanation of their telepathy in the actual book makes it sound like they're just really, really good at displaying and reading body language. Probably some kind of 'when you know as much as the Second Foundation the line between telepathy and body language blurs'.

Guess I might need to work out a way to watch this, maybe I have a partner or a friend with Apple TV...

[uncool]

To my recollection, the psychic powers of the Second Foundation are made pretty clear when they "deconvert" Han Pritcher (and later, the Mule) at the end of the first half of Second Foundation.

[Anonymouswizard]

To my recollection, the psychic powers of the Second Foundation are made pretty clear when they "deconvert" Han Pritcher (and later, the Mule) at the end of the first half of Second Foundation.

The body language thing is from Search By The Foundation. Specifically the explanation of how talking at their meetings works.

[Cikomyr2]

I still wonder what the hell the Vault in the first episode is.

It doesnt fit with the rest of the expedition tech. It looks literally alien.

[Spacewolf]

The plan isn't a fraud, though? If memory serves, the Second Foundation only intervened with the First after the whole Mule fiasco and had up until then concentrated their efforts on the vestigial Empire of Trantor because the Plan only had a negligible chance of failing before that point. The plan's success wasn't guaranteed true, but that's because psychohistory deals in probabilities not certainties.

The only way to get into the second foundation is to make a contribution to the plan in second foundation the leader even says here is my contribution so I guess there is a plan but the idea of it being set in stone is the fraud. It's more like a river, one that is being constantly monitored and adjusted to make sure it reaches where it is supposed to.

[Fyraltari]

The only way to get into the second foundation is to make a contribution to the plan in second foundation the leader even says here is my contribution so I guess there is a plan but the idea of it being set in stone is the fraud. It's more like a river, one that is being constantly monitored and adjusted to make sure it reaches where it is supposed to.
Well, yes. It's a plan that aims to engineer one outcome for an entire galaxy over one thousand years and is based on probability and statistics. Of course it needs monitoring and adjusting, but that doesn't mean major stuff, the Seldon Crisises, and therefore, Seldon's entire basic outline os still The Plan. Especially since that particular scene took place after The Mule did to the plan what the equivalent of elbow-dropping a sand castle would be and the SF spent the last decades trying to salvage it.
And remember, the Second Foundation is tiny. They have psychic powers, true, but much less potent than the Mule, they don't have Gaia's numbers either, and they don't have much money (at least for a clique intent on dictating the galaxy's future) since their day jobs is farming in the ruins of Trantor. They can't force the galaxy to comply to their plan, is what I am getting at, only nudge thing a little to ensure their preferred outcome.


Also, nitpick, the Prime Speaker's contribution to the plan was to extend it beyond Seldon's endpoint, which while, technically being an alteration to the plan doesn't really matter to what you were saying.

[Cikomyr2]

except there is never an end. The First Orator was just determining stability within the new Empire. If I remember right it was about the Empire splitting and self destructing

[Fyraltari]

Just watched episode 3.
I am confused by the idea of Salvor Hardin being "special" and the Vault letting nobody else but her approach. It seems to hint at her, specifically, being needed to resolve the First Crisis, which kind of goes against the whole idea of psychohistory.

Another thing,
Demerzel being part of the raid on the bomb-making facility feels off. That's a pretty blatant violation of the First Law. Even if she has, loke her book counterpart the zeroth Law installed, the books stressed how fien a line that is to tread, so I don't think her book counterpart would get away with that behaviour.

except there is never an end. The First Orator was just determining stability within the new Empire. If I remember right it was about the Empire splitting and self destructing

I don't understand where you are going with this. The Second Foundation extends the Plan beyond the rise of the Second Empire, true. But that doesn't invalidate the original aim of the Plan. In fact it makes sense, these people (I am including Seldon in the SF here) have already crowned themselves shepherd of mankind for a thousand years, why would they stop after such a "success"? This is exactly the reason the First Foundation starts opposing the Plan in Foundation's Edge.

Re-reading the beginning of Foundation's Edge real quick, First Speaker Shandess only says the Second Foundation (mostly himself) extended the Plan beyond Seldon's endpoint and describes the future Second Empire as being more federal in nature, which, allegedly, would allow it to work better than the first Empire because of the galaxy's size. He doesn't say anything about it falling apart.

[Cikomyr2]

I don't understand where you are going with this. The Second Foundation extends the Plan beyond the rise of the Second Empire, true. But that doesn't invalidate the original aim of the Plan. In fact it makes sense, these people (I am including Seldon in the SF here) have already crowned themselves shepherd of mankind for a thousand years, why would they stop after such a "success"? This is exactly the reason the First Foundation starts opposing the Plan in Foundation's Edge.

Re-reading the beginning of Foundation's Edge real quick, First Speaker Shandess only says the Second Foundation (mostly himself) extended the Plan beyond Seldon's endpoint and describes the future Second Empire as being more federal in nature, which, allegedly, would allow it to work better than the first Empire because of the galaxy's size. He doesn't say anything about it falling apart.

Well, I think he meant to explain that just because the next Empire is more federated it doesn't mean it will be invincible or eternal. He discussed an eventual political crisis that would destroy the Second Empire, and how he figured to bypass it. The implication was that Psychohistory was a Living Science, not a one and done by Hari Seldon. It wasn't the work of a single prophet, but an active intellectual field, basically projecting and playing with the future of humanity.

[Spacewolf]

Just watched episode 3.
I am confused by the idea of Salvor Hardin being "special" and the Vault letting nobody else but her approach. It seems to hint at her, specifically, being needed to resolve the First Crisis, which kind of goes against the whole idea of psychohistory.

Another thing,
Demerzel being part of the raid on the bomb-making facility feels off. That's a pretty blatant violation of the First Law. Even if she has, loke her book counterpart the zeroth Law installed, the books stressed how fien a line that is to tread, so I don't think her book counterpart would get away with that behaviour.


I don't understand where you are going with this. The Second Foundation extends the Plan beyond the rise of the Second Empire, true. But that doesn't invalidate the original aim of the Plan. In fact it makes sense, these people (I am including Seldon in the SF here) have already crowned themselves shepherd of mankind for a thousand years, why would they stop after such a "success"? This is exactly the reason the First Foundation starts opposing the Plan in Foundation's Edge.

Re-reading the beginning of Foundation's Edge real quick, First Speaker Shandess only says the Second Foundation (mostly himself) extended the Plan beyond Seldon's endpoint and describes the future Second Empire as being more federal in nature, which, allegedly, would allow it to work better than the first Empire because of the galaxy's size. He doesn't say anything about it falling apart.

To be honest I've never read past Second foundation because it sounds like it just goes down hill after that point. The same way Dune and Hyperion do after their second books. But the aim for the original trilogy was to put the second foundation in power and create a benevolent society where the cattle would be ruled over by a carefully designed and pruned race of psychic overlords. This would then be able to last indefinitely as it would have a high stability index as I remember them calling it.

The plan was literally a prop to get people to accept this situation without trying to rebel against their overlords by giving them something immutable to believe in, that being Psychohistory. The thing is while Psychohistory is a useful tool it's not good enough to predict the entirety of the thousand year plan without needing corrections. Which is why as the Second foundation increases their knowledge and study of it they are each required to make an alteration to the plan to show they understand it as well as to keep it on track.

It doesn't matter that the Mule had arrived because Palver had made his alteration before he even showed up as it was his initiation into the foundation and he is now the leader. That's the point of being part of the second foundation, to realise that the immutable plan is a lie but by keeping the river carefully managed they can still guide it to the planned outcome.

I don't think numbers really matter it's pretty much shown that they have at least one person in most important places and when that person can push thoughts into minds then it doesn't take more than one.

[Fyraltari]

To be honest I've never read past Second foundation because it sounds like it just goes down hill after that point. The same way Dune and Hyperion do after their second books. But the aim for the original trilogy was to put the second foundation in power and create a benevolent society where the cattle would be ruled over by a carefully designed and pruned race of psychic overlords. This would then be able to last indefinitely as it would have a high stability index as I remember them calling it.
I find them quote good (although, I jave my reservations about Gaia) in no small part because they question the benevolence of the Second Foundation. After all what right do these people have to steer the course of human history, and why should "the cattle" as you put it, have blond faith in them?


The plan was literally a prop to get people to accept this situation without trying to rebel against their overlords by giving them something immutable to believe in, that being Psychohistory.
Uh, no. The fullfilment of the Plan is entire purpose of the Second Foundation, they believe in it even more strongly than the First Founders. They are extremely desicated to it, as evidenced by all of those who willingly sacrificed themselves under Palver's orders so that it can get to back to its rails.


The thing is while Psychohistory is a useful tool it's not good enough to predict the entirety of the thousand year plan without needing corrections. Which is why as the Second foundation increases their knowledge and study of it they are each required to make an alteration to the plan to show they understand it as well as to keep it on track.
Uh, yeah it is. But remember that Hari Seldon was a university professor creating a whole new branch of statistical analysis in an galaxy spanning Empire that did not care about his research. His ability to gather data was limited. It took him his entire adult life to formulaye the plan and he originally had to use Trantor as a good-enoigh stand-in for the entire Empire. Of course the thing he produced wasn't flawless, but it works! The Second Foundation's role is that of a failsafe to insure the rise of the Second Empire (since placing the First Foundation on Terminus only gave it a decent probability of happening plus unknown unknown like the Mule) and to expand Seldon's vision further. Like in Second Foundation it's mentionned that reality once diverged from the plan and followed a path that had a 1% chance of happening. That does not invalidate the Plan or psychohistory at all.


It doesn't matter that the Mule had arrived because Palver had made his alteration before he even showed up as it was his initiation into the foundation and he is now the leader. That's the point of being part of the second foundation, to realise that the immutable plan is a lie but by keeping the river carefully managed they can still guide it to the planned outcome.
To become a member of the Council of Speaker, one must make a modification to the Plan. Not to become a member of the SF, one is born a Second Founder. Furthermore:


A good Speaker must not only master the mathematical subtelties of the Seldon plan, but have faith in it and its destinies. He must love the Plan with genuine love and without reservations. The Plan must be for him life's very essence.
[...]
The Seldon Plan is neither finished nor perfect. It is only the best possible plan, given the knowledge of the time.
Preem Palver's modification, which happened after the Mule came and went by the way (he may have been a Speaker by then, but he certainly wasn't the First Speaker) was about avoiding a particular situation that only had a 12% chance of happening and would have important ramifications much later.

They're correcting details, but the overall pattern of the First Foundation being shaped by the Seldon Crisises into the Second Empire remain unchanged. They are still following Seldon's plan, it is in no way a lie.



I don't think numbers really matter it's pretty much shown that they have at least one person in most important places and when that person can push thoughts into minds then it doesn't take more than one.

Yes it does matter, they've got an entire freaking galaxy to oversee and their psychic powers only extend as far as next room. And they're not The Mule who used his vast powers as a blunt instrument they have to be very subtle. And, once more, the First Foundation was entirely on its own for the beginning of its history.

[Spacewolf]

I find them quote good (although, I jave my reservations about Gaia) in no small part because they question the benevolence of the Second Foundation. After all what right do these people have to steer the course of human history, and why should "the cattle" as you put it, have blond faith in them?


Uh, no. The fullfilment of the Plan is entire purpose of the Second Foundation, they believe in it even more strongly than the First Founders. They are extremely desicated to it, as evidenced by all of those who willingly sacrificed themselves under Palver's orders so that it can get to back to its rails.


Uh, yeah it is. But remember that Hari Seldon was a university professor creating a whole new branch of statistical analysis in an galaxy spanning Empire that did not care about his research. His ability to gather data was limited. It took him his entire adult life to formulaye the plan and he originally had to use Trantor as a good-enoigh stand-in for the entire Empire. Of course the thing he produced wasn't flawless, but it works! The Second Foundation's role is that of a failsafe to insure the rise of the Second Empire (since placing the First Foundation on Terminus only gave it a decent probability of happening plus unknown unknown like the Mule) and to expand Seldon's vision further. Like in Second Foundation it's mentionned that reality once diverged from the plan and followed a path that had a 1% chance of happening. That does not invalidate the Plan or psychohistory at all.

[/spoiler]
To become a member of the Council of Speaker, one must make a modification to the Plan. Not to become a member of the SF, one is born a Second Founder. Furthermore:


Preem Palver's modification, which happened after the Mule came and went by the way (he may have been a Speaker by then, but he certainly wasn't the First Speaker) was about avoiding a particular situation that only had a 12% chance of happening and would have important ramifications much later.

They're correcting details, but the overall pattern of the First Foundation being shaped by the Seldon Crisises into the Second Empire remain unchanged. They are still following Seldon's plan, it is in no way a lie.



Yes it does matter, they've got an entire freaking galaxy to oversee and their psychic powers only extend as far as next room. And they're not The Mule who used his vast powers as a blunt instrument they have to be very subtle. And, once more, the First Foundation was entirely on its own for the beginning of its history.

Sorry I think you're misunderstanding me I'm not saying the plan is a lie, more that the first foundations idea of the plan is a lie as I said they view it as a paved path that's already been laid when really it's a living breathing thing that's constantly in flux. Sheldon even says the theory isn't fully finished. So the plan we see is true but the plan the first foundation sees is the prop, the lie.

I don't really have any interest in the morality of the plan as that's pretty much part of psychohistory.

[Dragonus45]

Just watched episode 3.
I am confused by the idea of Salvor Hardin being "special" and the Vault letting nobody else but her approach. It seems to hint at her, specifically, being needed to resolve the First Crisis, which kind of goes against the whole idea of psychohistory.

Another thing,
Demerzel being part of the raid on the bomb-making facility feels off. That's a pretty blatant violation of the First Law. Even if she has, loke her book counterpart the zeroth Law installed, the books stressed how fien a line that is to tread, so I don't think her book counterpart would get away with that behaviour.

Yea the setup for the series felt shaky to me to start with, Slavor Hardin the special chosen one feel totally on brand for the kind of stupid I half expect the show to fall into into and totally kills it for me.

Demerzel might just be a different kind of robot and they explicitly aren't bothering with the Three Laws? I can't remember if that got made clear or not.

[Fyraltari]

Sorry I think you're misunderstanding me I'm not saying the plan is a lie, more that the first foundations idea of the plan is a lie as I said they view it as a paved path that's already been laid when really it's a living breathing thing that's constantly in flux. Sheldon even says the theory isn't fully finished. So the plan we see is true but the plan the first foundation sees is the prop, the lie.

I don't really have any interest in the morality of the plan as that's pretty much part of psychohistory.
Okay, but then you'll forgive me for thinking you said the plan was a lie when you describe it with the word lie. :smalltongue: The First Foundation has, by design, a poor understanding of the Plan, but that does not make it a lie, either. Seldon is being honest in his recordings, he 100% intends to deliver what he promises in the way he promises and hi heirs are sticking by it.

Yea the setup for the series felt shaky to me to start with, Slavor Hardin the special chosen one feel totally on brand for the kind of stupid I half expect the show to fall into into and totally kills it for me.
They do toy with the idea, like when she's shown the Prime radiant and goe "nope I can't make head or tails of that." so they might not go this way. I guess Episode 4, will tell us.


Demerzel might just be a different kind of robot and they explicitly aren't bothering with the Three Laws? I can't remember if that got made clear or not.
They haven't even mentioned the Three Laws and there were "Robot Wars" (although the only human casualties mentioned were killed by humans) so who knows. But adapting Asimov's works with robots that don't follow Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics feels wrong.

[Dragonus45]

They do toy with the idea, like when she's shown the Prime radiant and goe "nope I can't make head or tails of that." so they might not go this way. I guess Episode 4, will tell us.



They haven't even mentioned the Three Laws and there were "Robot Wars" (although the only human casualties mentioned were killed by humans) so who knows. But adapting Asimov's works with robots that don't follow Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics feels wrong.

Even if it is just a tease it isn't going to help me feelings that the show is all flash and no substance. Don't get me wrong, the Foundation absolutely needed a little flash to go with it's frankly a lot of dry substance, but this feels too far the other direction.

Well if there were "Robot Wars" then I'm doubting they are using Asimov's robots. Unless the bots from, "...That Thou Art Mindful of Him" got a chance to wake up and start talking it over with some other robots. I get the feeling that they are either tossing out the Daneel Olivaw twist or taking a much wider and kinder view of the 0th law issue then the books did.

[Anonymouswizard]

Wasn't the reason Hardin appeared to be so important to fixing the crisis because by the time we meet him he was brute forcing his way into being top dog when the First Crisis hit? His actual solution is what most people would have done once they became mayor, and while it's been a while since I read it I'm not sure he even came up with the Religion of Science idea.

Hardin was sensible and who was needed, but certainly not the only person who could have done the job.

Guess it's time to pick up Foundation's Edge.

[Cikomyr2]

This week in Foundation

Things escalated, the Empire was attacked head on, and we learn a big backstory of the math girl

I really, really loved Hari Sheldon's assessment of her proof. The fact that it was *True* resonated with me.

[Fyraltari]

This is a good show and I am curious to see where it goes.
But I don't think it is a faithful adaptation of Asimov's book.

[Cikomyr2]

This is a good show and I am curious to see where it goes.
But I don't think it is a faithful adaptation of Asimov's book.

Define "faithful"?

I want to see where it goes and how the "first crisis" resolves before saying it's not worthy of the original series. Salvor Hardin in the original book did took over the Foundation by a partisan coup, and then went on to create a cult with him as the supreme religious authority.

[Wintermoot]

This is a good show and I am curious to see where it goes.
But I don't think it is a faithful adaptation of Asimov's book.

well... no... if you mean faithful as "abiding by the original's plotline". In the origianal Salvor Hardin wasn't a "warden", he was the mayor, he wasn't a park-ranger want to be but a political opportunist and career administrator. In the first crisis, he protected the foundation with guile and duplicity not with... uh a gun and a mad-maxian sidekick/boyfriend.

So yeah, the series plot lines are jumbled and mixed up so its not faithful like that.

However, if "faithful" means making the same points at the series, so far its too early to tell but it seems to be on track for me.

The first "foundation" novel was a series of short stories written over a decade in the 40s. They are too sparse to provide the meal for an entire series, so I can forgive them for expanding and adding where they need to.

i can also forgive them for replacing the series of white men with a series of multi-racial women, but I know some will have a problem with that.

[Cikomyr2]

well... no... if you mean faithful as "abiding by the original's plotline". In the origianal Salvor Hardin wasn't a "warden", he was the mayor, he wasn't a park-ranger want to be but a political opportunist and career administrator. In the first crisis, he protected the foundation with guile and duplicity not with... uh a gun and a mad-maxian sidekick/boyfriend.

So yeah, the series plot lines are jumbled and mixed up so its not faithful like that.

However, if "faithful" means making the same points at the series, so far its too early to tell but it seems to be on track for me.

The first "foundation" novel was a series of short stories written over a decade in the 40s. They are too sparse to provide the meal for an entire series, so I can forgive them for expanding and adding where they need to.

i can also forgive them for replacing the series of white men with a series of multi-racial women, but I know some will have a problem with that.

They seem to somehow mingle parts of the plot of the 2nd crisis (the lost Imperial Cruiser) with the 1st.

It doesn't really matter the minutia of what job Salvor Hardin had. In the original book, he had no more actual authority - initially - as SeriesHardin has. He was a powerless figurehead who was the most grounded of the Foundation leadership. That matches what we see.

Salvor used a bit of cunning, but we never really got to see him in action. The first crisis was resolved AFTER the end of the first book, we just get to hear about how he went on a diplomatic tour to the 3 kingdoms beside Anachreon. The only other action he actually took in the first book was seizing power with a show of violence. IT was bloodless; sure. But it was still a forceful takeover.

The 2nd crisis was just him showing up and make a charismatic speech. Sure, he put all the wheels in motion, but he had years and years of preparation.

[Wintermoot]

They seem to somehow mingle parts of the plot of the 2nd crisis (the lost Imperial Cruiser) with the 1st.

It doesn't really matter the minutia of what job Salvor Hardin had. In the original book, he had no more actual authority - initially - as SeriesHardin has. He was a powerless figurehead who was the most grounded of the Foundation leadership. That matches what we see.

Salvor used a bit of cunning, but we never really got to see him in action. The first crisis was resolved AFTER the end of the first book, we just get to hear about how he went on a diplomatic tour to the 3 kingdoms beside Anachreon. The only other action he actually took in the first book was seizing power with a show of violence. IT was bloodless; sure. But it was still a forceful takeover.

The 2nd crisis was just him showing up and make a charismatic speech. Sure, he put all the wheels in motion, but he had years and years of preparation.

Oh I agree. But that leads into my point which is the book (while fantastic) was... sparse of the kind of detail you need to fill up 600 minutes of season arc runtime.

[Dragonus45]

This is a good show and I am curious to see where it goes.
But I don't think it is a faithful adaptation of Asimov's book.

Hard agree, it seems to have have just missed the point for what the source material was trying to do so far.

[JadedDM]

I'm mostly just confused so far. Does psychohistory predict the future of large masses of people or individuals? Because the show keeps telling me it's the first one, but it keeps showing me the second.

[Cikomyr2]

I'm mostly just confused so far. Does psychohistory predict the future of large masses of people or individuals? Because the show keeps telling me it's the first one, but it keeps showing me the second.

Thats probably the thing that annoys me the most.

I get Seldon seeing his part in The Plan, and why he believed he had to die. It was important to preserve the Mystique of the plan, keep his status as a prophetic figure and not "Hari down the street".

But da fuq is Sardin supposed to be important? Unless they decided to do something around psychic powers and it being central aspect of the Foundation.

[JadedDM]

Yeah, granted, the season isn't over yet, so maybe there's another explanation and this is some kind of fake-out, but so far it really seems like the show is strongly implying that Hari predicted that Salvor would be born and would have special powers and would play a key role in averting the first crisis.

[Cikomyr2]

Yeah, granted, the season isn't over yet, so maybe there's another explanation and this is some kind of fake-out, but so far it really seems like the show is strongly implying that Hari predicted that Salvor would be born and would have special powers and would play a key role in averting the first crisis.

Exactly.

But then again. Let's say for a minute that they go with that. They never confirm that was Seldon plan, but everyone in the Foundation keeps repeating that it was. And it becomes a hardened belief.

That belief can still turn out erroneous in the end. We learn 2-3 season down the line that it could have been anyone, it would have been anyone 98% of the time, and there was nothing special about Hardin except she was the one who stepped up and was willing to push beyond the boundaries.

I am still utterly baffled at the whole Seldon Vault alien tech

Also wondering if they won't tie together the Spacers special mind-comprehension thingy with the psychic powers and the Math Comprehension thingy

[Anonymouswizard]

I'm mostly just confused so far. Does psychohistory predict the future of large masses of people or individuals? Because the show keeps telling me it's the first one, but it keeps showing me the second.

To be fair, in the earliest story it seems to be both, although notably three couple of times it is shown to work on individuals could either be showmanship or a case of 'the dynamics of Trantor mean this is the most likely outcome'. In later stories it's very much the first, and the fact that individual actions can, in rare circumstances, dramatically alter historic forces is important.

As for book Hardin, give him some credit. He'd spent years not only getting his way into power, he also had spent years actively working to undermine the existing leaders.

Honestly though, you could fill a series with a faithful adaptation. You'd have to give up on one series per book, but it's possible.

Series 1 would go up until The General, Series 2 would cover the rest of Foundation & Empire and Second Foundation, Series 3 and 4 would probably be Foundation's Edge and Foundation & Earth. Six one hour episodes each, and then maybe you go back and do the prequels.

[jayem]

I'm mostly just confused so far. Does psychohistory predict the future of large masses of people or individuals? Because the show keeps telling me it's the first one, but it keeps showing me the second.

Bookwise I think that's definitely the case. For obvious Equity/Filming based reason it makes sense that the Movies are similar. It would be different to see a film that was entirely told through large scale diagrams.
The principle is definitely that Physchohistory is the equivalent of Statistical Mechanics to Kinematics
The different parts vary into how much they live up to that, and I'm sure you could do some analysis as to why.

The first two part of Foundation is probably on the 'individual side' compared to average.

My guess for the Watsonian reasons for this:
Hari is trying to manipulate the future and the masses, using his understanding of Psychohistory as the lever. Because this is the crunch point, he also does have to take gambles on how significant individuals would react. The flip side of course is that he's dealing with the state he can see people as individuals in, he knows when Cleon's birthday was and...

The next part, Hari is still the significant individual. Gale has probably been doing some management (notably making sure he doesn't teach anyone). Hardin is too some extent possibly partially groomed for his opportunity. However to some extent the story of the part is Hardin anticipating what is happening and exploiting it for his own benefit.

Nothing Harding does at this point makes a difference to the evolution of the crisis, it just means the reader is informed of what's going on. Asimov could have told it from the point of view of someone blindsided, and it would have been a very different story ("you fool, your life work was for nothing").
And as mentioned we don't actually see the resolution (I think it's later implied Seldon confirms that what Hardin did was right, and in a way that if there was no-one on the ball something would be done).

Of course it does make a difference to Terminus's political dynamic. Had it been someone from the Encyclopedia would it be the Proctor and Trader's at issues later... ?
Although Hari arguably destabilises the encyclopedia side on purpose.

[JadedDM]

See, if you've seen the most recent episode, this is exactly what I am talking about:

Hari claims that Gaal and Raych had to be separated, or else it would ruin the Plan. But how would he know that, if psychohistory can only be used to predict the actions of large groups of people, and not individuals?

Further, it's revealed that Gaal is psychic. "This is why you couldn't predict my actions, I can feel the future," she says. But...why would that matter? Psychic or not, she's still an individual, so psychohistory should not have been able to predict her actions either way.

The show keeps telling us one thing and showing us another. Which is it?

[Cikomyr2]

See, if you've seen the most recent episode, this is exactly what I am talking about:

Hari claims that Gaal and Raych had to be separated, or else it would ruin the Plan. But how would he know that, if psychohistory can only be used to predict the actions of large groups of people, and not individuals?

Further, it's revealed that Gaal is psychic. "This is why you couldn't predict my actions, I can feel the future," she says. But...why would that matter? Psychic or not, she's still an individual, so psychohistory should not have been able to predict her actions either way.

The show keeps telling us one thing and showing us another. Which is it?

Well...

Is the amount of character who have as motivation/inspiration just a "feeling"

The religious leader just "knows" the Emperor is inherently corrupt
the warleader just "knew" where to find the warship

I think they are already creating hints all over that psychic powers are a thing and that someone is pushing minds from the shadow

[Spacewolf]

So just managed to see the series and it's a decent series but honestly it's almost an anathema to the foundation books. The characters are all driven by randomness and luck there's very little of the thoughtful characters of the book and every main character has to be special in some way which is abit of an issue with most modern sci-fi to be honest.

The Cleon stuff is interesting but obviously nothing to do with the books. I don't know what's going on with stars end now. And apparently they are separating completely from the books for next season with an all new plot. 😒

I really wish they'd made it it's own thing instead of a foundation series because now I'll probably never get to see that, while it negatively effects my view of this series as I keep going why are they doing this like that. It also screws with this show because they keep realising oh crap we supposed to be adapting a book and go back to badly adapting plot points.

[VampiricLongbow]

I have not read any of the books prior to watching the show.

I really enjoyed the show. It was ambitious and daring in a way few other scifi shows are these days. It tried to do something very different and, for me, it worked out really well! Was it perfect? No but name a TV show that is this ambitious that is perfect. Does not exist.

[Anonymouswizard]

I have not read any of the books prior to watching the show.

I really enjoyed the show. It was ambitious and daring in a way few other scifi shows are these days. It tried to do something very different and, for me, it worked out really well! Was it perfect? No but name a TV show that is this ambitious that is perfect. Does not exist.

The issue is that it's based on a very ambitious and distinctive set of books, and throws away the bits that made those books distinctive to become more generic.

[Cikomyr2]

The issue is that it's based on a very ambitious and distinctive set of books, and throws away the bits that made those books distinctive to become more generic.

Id argue its the opposite. The original Foundation novels were very high concept science fiction applied on top of a very generic and bland sci fi setting, and the series worked to give the world more of a personality.

In the books, there was nothing particular about The Emperor except that he was in charge and unable to prevent the fall. In the books, Smyrhia and Anachreon were just two generic barbarian rebel kingdoms on the edge of the Empire. Nobody had any personality - which was fine because the story wasnt about personalities, the entire theme made clear that it was about big movement of people.

[Fyraltari]

Honestly, I find that the parts that were the least related to the books, namely everything to with the Cleons were the most interesting. I kind of wish this had been an original show vaguely inspired by Foundation (like most space-operas are anyway) rather than an adaptation.

[Willie the Duck]

I am about 50-50 on this show, and have serious qualms about adaptations of works that change, reframe, or potentially negate major parts of the original work (on one side, I don't mind what PJ did to LotR; on the other, that Zack Snyder seems to have completely missed the point of Watchmen makes me think less of his version; and in the middle I think Verhoeven's Starship Troopers is just plain a completely different story using characters with the same names and basic 'what happens').

That said, we weren't going to get a faithful Foundation series*. Ever. It's too... expository. I mean, movie and tv shows can end up with a lot of standing around and talking and explaining what is going on, but there's a limit. Honestly, even in book form the series (certainly the original 3) are hugely people standing around explaining to each other how this grand plan over the course of a millennium is unfolding, with only occasionally someone actually doing a specific thing that impacts the outcome.
*or movie


I really wish they'd made it it's own thing instead of a foundation series because now I'll probably never get to see that

[Cikomyr2]

I personally cant wait for a next season. We dont have Grand Epic Space Opera as a popular genre in pop culture at the moment.

The show is the show, and i refuse to rate it based on how closely it adapts the books. Meanwhile, I'll rate it devoid of expectation except those it puts on itself. And at the moment, i am gluttonous for season 2.

[Dragonus45]

I personally cant wait for a next season. We dont have Grand Epic Space Opera as a popular genre in pop culture at the moment.

The show is the show, and i refuse to rate it based on how closely it adapts the books. Meanwhile, I'll rate it devoid of expectation except those it puts on itself. And at the moment, i am gluttonous for season 2.

The show is using the name of another series and purports to be an adaptation of said material and I refuse to not hold it accountable for it's inability to grasp the themes and ideas of said source material.

[Anonymouswizard]

That said, we weren't going to get a faithful Foundation series*. Ever. It's too... expository. I mean, movie and tv shows can end up with a lot of standing around and talking and explaining what is going on, but there's a limit. Honestly, even in book form the series (certainly the original 3) are hugely people standing around explaining to each other how this grand plan over the course of a millennium is unfolding, with only occasionally someone actually doing a specific thing that impacts the outcome.
*or movie

Eh, you could still be significantly more faithful, or rework scenes to include more active elements.

But that was what made it distinctive. The original trilogy is telling a story that is far larger in scale than any of the people in it, even Sheldon. If you can't make a Foundation TV series with that limitation then you shouldn't make a Foundation TV series.

But hey, at least we do have a faithful adaptation of great quality. Radio dramas thrive in that kind of structure, and Foundation has one


The show is using the name of another series and purports to be an adaptation of said material and I refuse to not hold it accountable for it's inability to grasp the themes and ideas of said source material.

This. So much this. If the show wasn't trying to say it's telling the story of Foundation I wouldn't hold the fact that it isn't telling the story of Foundation against it.

I do not want a season 2, but I wouldn't mind these people making a new series and telling the story they clearly want to tell.

[Cikomyr2]

This. So much this. If the show wasn't trying to say it's telling the story of Foundation I wouldn't hold the fact that it isn't telling the story of Foundation against it.

I do not want a season 2, but I wouldn't mind these people making a new series and telling the story they clearly want to tell.

On the other hand, if the writers wanted to make a story about a mathematician who projected the collapse of galactic civilization and makes a plan meant to prepare for this and sets everything into motions, and you didnt call it Foundation, you would be buried in lawsuit and criticism of "ripping off Foundation".

Theres no winning that game, so i say **** that metric. The Hobbit did not fail because they were a poor adaptation, but because they were poor movies. Movies and series have to stand on their own regardless of source material. Just like you cant redeem a ****ty movie/series by telling me "oh this makes sense in the book", you cant bring it down by telling me "oh its different from the book".

Adaptators have to make concessions to the medium they are adapting it as. If you want a perfectly faithful adaptation of the novel, then YOU convince Apple to trust you with dozens of millions of dollars.

[Anonymouswizard]

On the other hand, if the writers wanted to make a story about a mathematician who projected the collapse of galactic civilization and makes a plan meant to prepare for this and sets everything into motions, and you didnt call it Foundation, you would be buried in lawsuit and criticism of "ripping off Foundation".

Theres no winning that game, so i say **** that metric. The Hobbit did not fail because they were a poor adaptation, but because they were poor movies. Movies and series have to stand on their own regardless of source material. Just like you cant redeem a ****ty movie/series by telling me "oh this makes sense in the book", you cant bring it down by telling me "oh its different from the book".

Adaptators have to make concessions to the medium they are adapting it as. If you want a perfectly faithful adaptation of the novel, then YOU convince Apple to trust you with dozens of millions of dollars.

Yes, just like how the Watch* series wasn't a dumpster fire of an adaptation. Except it was, because gutting the story or world and inserting your own stuff isn't being a very good adaptation.

Saying you're telling a well known story means you need to tell that story, not tell a different story and say 'sorry, we can't tell the story we promised because it's a different medium'.

Why can't Hardin be the mayor of Terminus and partially trained psychologist, who saves the day because she's the only one in a position of power with any knowledge of how people think? Yes definitely show her doing stuff, have her pull strings at the paper to present things in the light she wants, show her recording conversations and sending them off to be analysed, focus on her setting up the coup. But don't give me another character and claim it's her.

* I've heard it's okay if you've never read the books? I don't know, I love Discworld and couldn't finish the first episode because of what they did to Cheeri.

[Cikomyr2]

Yes, just like how the Watch* series wasn't a dumpster fire of an adaptation. Except it was, because gutting the story or world and inserting your own stuff isn't being a very good adaptation.



I havent seen the series, but if its a good show to watch outside the context of "did i read the books first", then it's a good show to watch. You just repeated your previous argument about unfaithful adaptations are bad because they are unfaithful.

[Willie the Duck]

Eh, you could still be significantly more faithful, or rework scenes to include more active elements. I don't know. Asimov tried to do so in the 80s with Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth, and then both he and licensed successors did so with prequels and so on and... well, they are entertaining stories (some of them), but they feel just as much like fanfic in the foundation universe as this series.


But that was what made it distinctive. The original trilogy is telling a story that is far larger in scale than any of the people in it, even Sheldon. If you can't make a Foundation TV series with that limitation then you shouldn't make a Foundation TV series.
But hey, at least we do have a faithful adaptation of great quality. Radio dramas thrive in that kind of structure, and Foundation has one
So, again, I don't think this series stopped us from having a good and faithful TV adaptation. I'm not against the deontological position that adaptations should remain close to the adapted material (in general I agree, while at the same time there are always people who can find any little difference unacceptable and I find that position untenable), I'm just saying that this series is imminently ignorable (I am firmly against notions that this thing existing retroactively degrades this other thing I love in a 'you ruined my childhood' vein) and wasn't in competition with a faithful Foundation series..

[Dragonus45]

I havent seen the series, but if its a good show to watch outside the context of "did i read the books first", then it's a good show to watch. You just repeated your previous argument about unfaithful adaptations are bad because they are unfaithful.

It's kind of not though. It manages to sit around the "just ok" mark on it's own merits. But even if it was a great show, it would still be a god awful adaptation of it's material and that absolutely does matter.

[Cikomyr2]

It's kind of not though. It manages to sit around the "just ok" mark on it's own merits. But even if it was a great show, it would still be a god awful adaptation of it's material and that absolutely does matter.

So the end product is a sort of okay show.

The big problem they have is that they tried to draw viewer by relying on the IP, and then did not properly respect that IP. I get that argument. Just like Lucifer the tv show was nothing like the original comic.. but still ended up with a fun procedural.

Its a double edge sword, and all things considered i kind of see the big lines Foundation used from the original novels that are the same. But the detail of the individual actions and story beats and behaviors are waaaay different.