Which gods have Challenge Ratings (besides Tiamat)?

[MartianPrince]

We have Tiamat's Challenge Rating and I'm curious about how other gods stack up against her. Challenge Ratings from other editions are fine as well.

Auril doesn't count, since her stats are her in a weakened state.

[Lunali]

Strictly speaking, none, including Tiamat. The CRs given are for particular avatars of gods at a given time.

That said, there are several high end demons and devils that have been statted out that might meet your criteria depending on what you actually consider to be a god. Demogorgon and Orcus in particular seem likely.

[Eldariel]

Strictly speaking, none, including Tiamat. The CRs given are for particular avatars of gods at a given time.

The module writers explicitly stated that the Tiamat whose stat block it contains is the real deal - not an avatar, an actual god.

[MartianPrince]

Strictly speaking, none, including Tiamat. The CRs given are for particular avatars of gods at a given time.

I've heard this, but I don't know what the source on this is. Does anyone have an idea?

[Unoriginal]

We have Tiamat's Challenge Rating and I'm curious about how other gods stack up against her.

Aside from Auril, there is none.



Challenge Ratings from other editions are fine as well.

CR meant something different in other editions, and the gods aren't the same either. 3.X Tiamat won't match 5e Tiamat, for example.

[JackPhoenix]

I've heard this, but I don't know what the source on this is. Does anyone have an idea?

Here you go. (https://twitter.com/ChrisPerkinsDnD/status/844726037204238336)

[ProsecutorGodot]

Here you go. (https://twitter.com/ChrisPerkinsDnD/status/844726037204238336)

"Avatar" never had to mean that what you were fighting was weaker, I think it was just intended as shorthand for "Tiamat will not be permanently killed when you defeat this monster".

If memory serves, we'll be getting Bahamut in the upcoming Fizban book. If I'm not mistaken in that, a good thought experiment would be to make our own stat block approximated from our existing high CR examples and compare it with release.

[Eldariel]

"Avatar" never had to mean that what you were fighting was weaker, I think it was just intended as shorthand for "Tiamat will not be permanently killed when you defeat this monster".

That's an ability on the statblock: discorporation. Thus we don't need such terminology. It is Tiamat in flesh and if you can somehow subvert their immortality (such as via True Polymorph), you can rid the world of the god of evil Dragons for good.

[Unoriginal]

That's an ability on the statblock: discorporation. Thus we don't need such terminology. It is Tiamat in flesh and if you can somehow subvert their immortality (such as via True Polymorph), you can rid the world of the god of evil Dragons for good.

True Polymorph cannot subvert immortality.

Also, D&D gods cannot truly be killed just by destroying their physical forms. Tiamat just has an additional layer of defense on that front, with her body reforming in Avernus quickly. The much weaker Auril has to wait until the winter solstice to come back and [Tomb of Annihilation spoilers] the nine dead Trickster Gods of Omu can still communicate with and grant some powers to mortals and smite their hated foe even if explicitly dead, incorporeal and deprived of all worship for decades due to how the Tomb works.

[Eldariel]

True Polymorph cannot subvert immortality.

Also, D&D gods cannot truly be killed just by destroying their physical forms. Tiamat just has an additional layer of defense on that front, with her body reforming in Avernus quickly. The much weaker Auril has to wait until the winter solstice to come back and [Tomb of Annihilation spoilers] the nine dead Trickster Gods of Omu can still communicate with and grant some powers to mortals and smite their hated foe even if explicitly dead, incorporeal and deprived of all worship for decades due to how the Tomb works.

By lore that's true, but by statblock all it takes is something that removes the Discorporation-ability, such as True Polymorph, followed by a kill effect such as Power Word: Kill to finish her off.

[MartianPrince]

CR meant something different in other editions, and the gods aren't the same either.

I'm actually fine with that. Which gods had CRs in previous editions?

[MartianPrince]

Here you go.

This is Chris Perkins confirming that the Tiamat in Rise of Tiamat is not an avatar—it's her at full power. I asked for a source on why people think it's just an avatar you're fighting in ROT, since this seems like a prevalent idea.

[JackPhoenix]

This is Chris Perkins confirming that the Tiamat in Rise of Tiamat is not an avatar—it's her at full power. I asked for a source on why people think it's just an avatar you're fighting in ROT, since this seems like a prevalent idea.

Yeah, I've misread the discussion, I thought you were looking for the claim that statblock is the original.

People think it's just an avatar because, let's be honest, the stat block is not that great, and they feel gods should be more of a challenge.

[Eldariel]

I'm actually fine with that. Which gods had CRs in previous editions?

Deities & Demigods stats out most pantheons in 3.0 (Greyhawk, Roman, Egyptian, Norse, few misc ones). Faiths and Pantheons stats out most of the Forgotten Realms deities, likewise in 3.0. 2e did the same with Faiths & Avatars, though 3e was more expansive in this regard. The 3e statblocks don't largely actually have CR but they do have stats from which you could derive it (plus 3e CR is pretty much darts anyways so even if it did exist, it wouldn't really matter).


Yeah, I've misread the discussion, I thought you were looking for the claim that statblock is the original.

People think it's just an avatar because, let's be honest, the stat block is not that great, and they feel gods should be more of a challenge.

Plus in past editions, after deities were introduced as monsters and people felt they were too beatable, TSR and later WotC went "it was just an aspect" or "avatar" or whatever to explain it away. What those divine statblocks actually showcase has always been kinda up in the air, because it's kinda clash between gameplay (players want to do epic things like fight deities) and the story (the players are still just mortals; if they could kill deities, mortals killing deities should be happening every day, unless the PCs are special enough that verisimilitude flies out of the window). Aspects kinda tread the middle ground of "You can kill deities" but "Not really, but you still beat up what's basically a part of the deity! Go you!"

[MartianPrince]

Deities & Demigods stats out most pantheons in 3.0 (Greyhawk, Roman, Egyptian, Norse, few misc ones). Faiths and Pantheons stats out most of the Forgotten Realms deities, likewise in 3.0. 2e did the same with Faiths & Avatars, though 3e was more expansive in this regard. The 3e statblocks don't largely actually have CR but they do have stats from which you could derive it (plus 3e CR is pretty much darts anyways so even if it did exist, it wouldn't really matter).

I'm familiar with those sources. I started this thread largely so I could find a source that gives a god's CR so I could compare it to the information in Deities and Demigods, Faiths and Pantheons, etc.

I've heard that the best rule of thumb we have for calculating CR from level is by doing "CR = level * 2/3", which—and this might be controversial—I actually kind of like. However, my guess is that for gods a formula of "CR = level * 3/4" would make more sense. That way, someone like Lolth (who's Level 40) would be CR 30, like Tiamat, rather than CR 26-27, which... would just be pathetic. There's no way Demogorgon (no offense to monkey boy) is on the same level as her.

Again, I know these are EXTREMELY rough calculations, but even a ballpark estimate of the gods' power levels is good enough for me. Anything is more concrete than just "they're stronk."

[JackPhoenix]

I'm familiar with those sources. I started this thread largely so I could find a source that gives a god's CR so I could compare it to the information in Deities and Demigods, Faiths and Pantheons, etc.

I've heard that the best rule of thumb we have for calculating CR from level is by doing "CR = level * 2/3", which—and this might be controversial—I actually kind of like. However, my guess is that for gods a formula of "CR = level * 3/4" would make more sense. That way, someone like Lolth (who's Level 40) would be CR 30, like Tiamat, rather than CR 26-27, which... would just be pathetic. There's no way Demogorgon (no offense to monkey boy) is on the same level as her.

Again, I know these are EXTREMELY rough calculations, but even a ballpark estimate of the gods' power levels is good enough for me. Anything is more concrete than just "they're stronk."

I'm fine with gods not doing that great in personal combat. Divine power is a plot power, and doesn't necessarily translate into abilities usable in combat. And you shouldn't face gods in 4v1 situations when you invade their home... you should face a god, hundreds of servants of various types, and whatever preparations they set up over the millenia of their existence.

Of course, that's assuming you won't go the proper way, like Eberron did, and make the gods unreachable by mortals.

[Millstone85]

The module writers explicitly stated that the Tiamat whose stat block it contains is the real deal - not an avatar, an actual god.
If memory serves, we'll be getting Bahamut in the upcoming Fizban book.I think that Fizban's Treasury of Dragons is going to majorly complicate an already vague situation.

We are being promised "aspects" of Bahamut and Tiamat, the dragon gods who are now said to have created the First World of the Material Plane. In itself, this sounds like a retcon of how 5e previously called them lesser deities (which, by a certain reading of the DMG, don't get avatars).

But the book is also said to introduce new lore about "dragonsight" and "great wyrms". A dragon experiences dreams that show them their other incarnations but, instead of being past lives, these are incarnations currently living on other worlds of the Material Plane. And when a dragon achieves full awareness of itself across all these worlds, it ascends to a godlike state.

So maybe these "aspects" of Bahamut and Tiamat are not conventional divine avatars, but must instead be understood in the context of great-wyrm mechanics? :smallsigh:

[dafrca]

Yeah, I've misread the discussion, I thought you were looking for the claim that statblock is the original.

People think it's just an avatar because, let's be honest, the stat block is not that great, and they feel gods should be more of a challenge.

I always thought it was an Avatar because that was how it always was. The specs given were always avatars/projections of the gods and you as a mortal could never kill a good. So the idea I misunderstood Kobold Press's actions and thought it was an avatar does not feel like a major issue. to me. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

I'm familiar with those sources. I started this thread largely so I could find a source that gives a god's CR so I could compare it to the information in Deities and Demigods, Faiths and Pantheons, etc.

I've heard that the best rule of thumb we have for calculating CR from level is by doing "CR = level * 2/3", which—and this might be controversial—I actually kind of like. However, my guess is that for gods a formula of "CR = level * 3/4" would make more sense. That way, someone like Lolth (who's Level 40) would be CR 30, like Tiamat, rather than CR 26-27, which... would just be pathetic. There's no way Demogorgon (no offense to monkey boy) is on the same level as her.

Again, I know these are EXTREMELY rough calculations, but even a ballpark estimate of the gods' power levels is good enough for me. Anything is more concrete than just "they're stronk."

Well, if Tiamat is CR30, I would surmise most deities would be CR30. She's a lesser deity - greater deities and lesser deities alike would obviously thus be CR30 and just greater magnitude of CR30.