Did Serini build a mage breaker dungeon?

[Dion]

On its surface, monster hollow seems to be easy for mages, with nothing but high level monsters that mages can easily kill.

But underneath, monster hollow is literally impossible for mages, with multidimensional stone that mages can’t scry through; traps that are impossible for mages to detect; and anti magic field ambushes.

Is this whole dungeon a mage breaker that’s designed to be impossible for mages to successfully navigate solo without help from other classes?

[Liquor Box]

I doubt it'd specifically designed as anti-mage. Serini had not way of knowing what type of people/monsters she had to defend against. Given it's based on a game with parties, a party is probably the most likely.

I don't think the trap is impossible for a mage like Xykon to detect. Casting detect magic would detect, and then he could dispel it. It just hasn't occurred to him to look yet.

[ti'esar]

I mean, Serini did intend to build the dungeon partially as Kraagor - a barbarian who valued physical strength above all - wanted, right? So it does make sense that she'd take special care with anti-mage features.

That said, given that she was basically the only Scribbler who seems to have made efforts to look beyond her own preferences when designing defenses in the first place, I'm inclined to agree that it's mostly just meant as a general purpose dungeon.

[Squire Doodad]

On its surface, monster hollow seems to be easy for mages, with nothing but high level monsters that mages can easily kill.

But underneath, monster hollow is literally impossible for mages, with multidimensional stone that mages can’t scry through; traps that are impossible for mages to detect; and anti magic field ambushes.

Is this whole dungeon a mage breaker that’s designed to be impossible for mages to successfully navigate solo without help from other classes?

"Anti-Magic Field ambushes" that we have seen would refer exclusively to Sunny's eye. There's no reason to believe that the majority of the dungeon has AMF-related traps.
Multidimensional Stone feels like it's more of a multipurpose feature, and I would just say the traps weren't noticed because Team Evil doesn't have a rogue.

[Ionathus]

I also don't think it's specifically made to be a magekiller dungeon, but might be valid to note that since magic users are exponentially dangerous at higher levels, countermeasures designed to stop them will probably be a lot more flashy, obvious, and purpose-built. So we may not pay attention to the giant physical monsters and instead focus on the time she uses an AMF, because that's out of the ordinary (but a totally justifiable precaution against high-level characters).

Solution to keep out a high-level fighter or rogue? Just put more dungeon in your dungeon and nobody bats an eye.

Solution to keep out a high-level wizard? Some tricky bull****.

[Nymrod]

On its surface, monster hollow seems to be easy for mages, with nothing but high level monsters that mages can easily kill.

But underneath, monster hollow is literally impossible for mages, with multidimensional stone that mages can’t scry through; traps that are impossible for mages to detect; and anti magic field ambushes.

Is this whole dungeon a mage breaker that’s designed to be impossible for mages to successfully navigate solo without help from other classes?

If the party just once dragged a fight towards the door and hit the trap with a greater dispel (let alone a Disjunction or Superb Dispelling) her entire protection system instantly is shut down.

[danielxcutter]

Didn't Roy make the point that it's almost certainly not the only defense? This isn't the only protection, it's basically the outer walls.

[TinyMushroom]

I mean, Serini did intend to build the dungeon partially as Kraagor - a barbarian who valued physical strength above all - wanted, right? So it does make sense that she'd take special care with anti-mage features.

That might be a story she deliberately spread to make high-level mages think it would be easy, since they're used to outclassing fighters.

[Psyren]

@OP: No moreso than any other dungeon designed to stymie high-level parties.

(Including the ones that don't think of bringing a rogue, or having their cleric cast Find Traps :smalltongue:)

[danielxcutter]

Would Find Traps even give much of a chance to find them? It seems these traps are at least fairly hard to discover.

[Psyren]

Would Find Traps even give much of a chance to find them? It seems these traps are at least fairly hard to discover.

You certainly need Trapfinding, but the spell gives that. More importantly though, we know that Haley hasn't been keeping her search skill max(x)ed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html), and she was still able to spot them twice (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1219.html) - while rushing about in a panic rather than searching more methodically no less.

[Emanick]

You certainly need Trapfinding, but the spell gives that. More importantly though, we know that Haley hasn't been keeping her search skill max(x)ed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html), and she was still able to spot them twice (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1219.html) - while rushing about in a panic rather than searching more methodically no less.

Personally, I suspect that the experience at Girard's pyramid prompted Haley to bring her Search ranks back up to maximum (after all, she would have known that they were headed to Kraagor's Tomb, which had been described like a classic dungeon, next). Rogues get enough skill points that they can do that rather quickly, and we know she's leveled since then.

[Psyren]

Personally, I suspect that the experience at Girard's pyramid prompted Haley to bring her Search ranks back up to maximum (after all, she would have known that they were headed to Kraagor's Tomb, which had been described like a classic dungeon, next). Rogues get enough skill points that they can do that rather quickly, and we know she's leveled since then.

It's a fair assumption, certainly I'd do that (although we also know the OotS isn't necessarily optimized either.)

With the number of doors TE has done though, if Redcloak were casting the spell you'd think he'd have gotten a high roll at least once.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think Find Traps gives that high a bonus. Probably not nearly as high as Haley.

[SlashDash]

It's a fair assumption, certainly I'd do that (although we also know the OotS isn't necessarily optimized either.)
But they are supposed to be optimized to the things they are expected to do.

Roy may not be the greatest optimized build for what we assume is standard stuff for a fighter to face - but we sure as heck assume he is at least trying to optimize his build to fight a certain undead spellcaster.

I'd assume Haley would be up the slack on her search skill (or get items to cover it up)


I don't think Find Traps gives that high a bonus. Probably not nearly as high as Haley.

SRD says you get a bonus equal to half your level up to a maximum of 10.
So assuming Redcloak hasn't put any ranks in search (Clerics don't get a a lot of skillpoints)

And he's level 17-20 by now, at best he has a +10 to search and whatever his intelligence is.

Haley should be far better.


I also think another thing to note here - Xykon has Serini's diary.
That means he knows how she designed the dungeon - or at least he thinks he does.
So Team Evil has a false sense of security and are less likely to test all options.

Meanwhile, Haley has no idea what's going on, so she is always on the lookout for anything.