Mostly Mundane Minion Maximization

[RatElemental]

Hey all, I've got a bit of a design quandary for pathfinder, 1e specifically.

My goal is to, ideally, create a character who can field 3 nonhuman permanent minions at a time, again ideally with the ability to swap them out. The actual character should be mostly standing back and letting the pets do the work, and supporting the party. It's partly inspired by a certain game I've been into recently and a chance to join a campaign came up where it wouldn't be disruptive so I figured why not.

My current thinking is a half elf cavalier 4/hunter x who uses the following things:

Honor Guard archetype to replace the cavalier's charge with something useful since I probably won't actually be mounted most of the time, and it also increases the support capabilities of my challenge.

Horse Master to set their effective cavalier level to character level for the mount.

Boon Companion to make up for the 4 levels of cavalier for the animal companion

Eldritch Heritage for a familiar, possibly with a second boon companion so it's at character level instead of character level -2.

The animal companion can be released and replaced relatively easily, the mount can... accidentally die and be replaced a week later, the familiar can be dismissed and replaced for a hefty price tag. This all fits my design goals well enough and hunter gets summon nature's ally to bring a bit more to the table. Hunter and cavalier both also have some shenanigans they can pull with teamwork feats, and the order of the reins will make all my pets slightly better in combat as well.

I just can't help but feel like I'm overlooking something here. Answers to any of the following would be very much appreciated.

Are there any magic items I should prioritize finding?
Which teamwork feats are worth sharing with the party?
How can I get my mount and animal companion to be smart enough to gain access to more than the standard feats?
Is there a way to get this to work before level 7? Are there any particularly good archetypes to use for this?
Would improved familiar or evolved familiar work with this?
If I use the huntmaster cavalier archetype to replace the mount with a more normal animal companion can I still get a second animal companion from hunter?
If no, what if I traded the second companion for a plant or vermin or something with one of the hunter archetypes?

[Maat Mons]

I’m not certain you can have both a Cavalier’s Mount and a Hunter’s Animal Companion. Both abilities say they function “like a Druid’s Animal Companion.”

If that’s no problem, there are ways to pull off the same sort of thing as a single-classed character. A Cleric can select the Chivalry Inquisition instead of a Domain. That gives him a Mount as a Cavalier. And he can also select the Animal Domain, which gives him an Animal Companion at 4th level. Alternately, an Inquisitor can select the Sacred Huntmaster archetype, which gives him an Animal Companion as a Hunter. And he can, of course, select the Chivalry Inquisition for a Mount.

[Kurald Galain]

Which teamwork feats are worth sharing with the party?
The best ones are probably Lastwall Phalanx, Broken Wing Gambit, Escape Route, and Precise Strike; espcially Broken Wing Gambit.


How can I get my mount and animal companion to be smart enough to gain access to more than the standard feats?
Oh that's easy, every five levels they get +1 to one abilty score. They usually start at 2 int, and once they have 3 int they can take any regular feat.

[Psyren]

I would aim for a caster class of some kind for this concept, rather than Cavalier. While Cavaliers do have access to some party buffs (mostly through their Banner), they're much more built around the idea that you're wading in alongside/astride your companion and participating in the fight directly.

Summoner would be ideal for this, as you can field an Eidolon, get a familiar from VMC / Eldritch Heritage, and then get an animal companion from Animal Ally for three scaling companions that can cover a wide variety of party roles, and then use your magic to hang back and buff them as well as the party. If the regular summoner is too powerful for your group, go with the weaker Unchained Summoner instead.

(Alternatively, you could go with Wizard/Sorcerer for the familiar, Animal Ally for the companion, and VMC for the eidolon.)
(Alternatively, you could go with Druid or Hunter for the animal companion, Eldritch Heritage/Familiar Bond for the familiar, and VMC for the eidolon.)

[RatElemental]

I’m not certain you can have both a Cavalier’s Mount and a Hunter’s Animal Companion. Both abilities say they function “like a Druid’s Animal Companion.”

There's a sidebar explaining that if your normal animal companion is on the list of possible cavalier mounts then they stack together but otherwise they don't. With horse master and boon companion it's pretty easy to get them both to full scaling.


If that’s no problem, there are ways to pull off the same sort of thing as a single-classed character. A Cleric can select the Chivalry Inquisition instead of a Domain. That gives him a Mount as a Cavalier. And he can also select the Animal Domain, which gives him an Animal Companion at 4th level. Alternately, an Inquisitor can select the Sacred Huntmaster archetype, which gives him an Animal Companion as a Hunter. And he can, of course, select the Chivalry Inquisition for a Mount.

Ah I knew I had to be missing something, I've never really looked too hard at inquisitor. Unfortunately the chivalry inquisition doesn't seem to give expert trainer which is a prerequisite for horse master.


The best ones are probably Lastwall Phalanx, Broken Wing Gambit, Escape Route, and Precise Strike; espcially Broken Wing Gambit.

Oh that's easy, every five levels they get +1 to one abilty score. They usually start at 2 int, and once they have 3 int they can take any regular feat.

Huh, didn't realize I could just put those points into int, thanks.


I would aim for a caster class of some kind for this concept, rather than Cavalier. While Cavaliers do have access to some party buffs (mostly through their Banner), they're much more built around the idea that you're wading in alongside/astride your companion and participating in the fight directly.

Summoner would be ideal for this, as you can field an Eidolon, get a familiar from VMC / Eldritch Heritage, and then get an animal companion from Animal Ally for three scaling companions that can cover a wide variety of party roles, and then use your magic to hang back and buff them as well as the party. If the regular summoner is too powerful for your group, go with the weaker Unchained Summoner instead.

(Alternatively, you could go with Wizard/Sorcerer for the familiar, Animal Ally for the companion, and VMC for the eidolon.)
(Alternatively, you could go with Druid or Hunter for the animal companion, Eldritch Heritage/Familiar Bond for the familiar, and VMC for the eidolon.)

Not sure variant multiclassing is on the table, but I suppose bolting a companion and familiar onto summoner could work and be simpler, I'll have to consider this. I originally passed over summoner because you can't stack evolutionist with broodmaster, but with this I wouldn't need broodmaster. I think I can stack naturalist on there to bring it more on theme, too...

[Maat Mons]

I don’t think you’d need Horse Master if you did a single-classed Cleric or Inquisitor build. The Chivalry Inquisition doesn’t specify your effective Cavalier level for purposes of your Mount. But I presume it is equal to your level in the class that grants you the Inquisition.

If my supposition is correct, then a 20th-level Inquisitor gets a mount as a 20th-level Cavalier and an Animal Companion as a 20th-level Druid. And a 20th-level Cleric gets a Mount as a 20th-level Cavalier and an Animal Companion as a 17th-level Druid. Though Boon Companion could get the Cleric up to an effective Druid level of 20.

[Psyren]

Not sure variant multiclassing is on the table, but I suppose bolting a companion and familiar onto summoner could work and be simpler, I'll have to consider this. I originally passed over summoner because you can't stack evolutionist with broodmaster, but with this I wouldn't need broodmaster. I think I can stack naturalist on there to bring it more on theme, too...

I mention VMC because it's one of the few ways I know of to get an eidolon onto a non-summoner class. The other two (Familiar and Animal Companion) can be gotten easily without VMC, but that of course locks you into Summoner as the build's base.

(Another option if you don't want a Summoner is Spiritualist, for Phantom + Familiar + AC instead of Eidolon + Familiar + AC)


I don’t think you’d need Horse Master if you did a single-classed Cleric or Inquisitor build. The Chivalry Inquisition doesn’t specify your effective Cavalier level for purposes of your Mount. But I presume it is equal to your level in the class that grants you the Inquisition.

If my supposition is correct, then a 20th-level Inquisitor gets a mount as a 20th-level Cavalier and an Animal Companion as a 20th-level Druid. And a 20th-level Cleric gets a Mount as a 20th-level Cavalier and an Animal Companion as a 17th-level Druid. Though Boon Companion could get the Cleric up to an effective Druid level of 20.

If the AC is on the Mount list, they stack into one creature rather than you getting two. (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qqn) If it isn't, you get two, but then they have separate progressions. Note that Animal Ally will force them to stack into one, and you can't take it first anyway.

[RatElemental]

At the moment summoner is the way I'll probably go, though the DM said that they require you to use unchained summoner. Which is no big deal since unchained can still take evolutionist and naturalist, I think.

I'm still going to look into inquisitor though, and it does seem as if sacred huntmaster with the chivalry inquisition would work out of the box to get both a mount and an animal companion at full scaling with no extra frills, and the familiar can be brought in at full scaling with just 3 feats as well, making this doable at level 5 without being half elf. I could go with gnome or some other small race to get a wolf as the mount and then have a falcon or something as the companion.

The main issue with inquisitor is I don't usually click very well with classes that have a deity as a huge central element to them, and this is a custom setting so I have no idea what deities there even are to begin with. There's no set date yet for us to begin and the other newcomer hasn't even decided on a class yet (I'm helping them with their build, since they're used to 5e), so I've got plenty of time to decide.

[Eldonauran]

One option you could take is the Elemental Ally (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Druid%20Elemental% 20Ally) Druid archetype. That gives you four (4) customizable critters to fiddle around with (limited evolutions but can all have different feats/forms). You can pick up an animal companion separately if you want (through animal ally or eldritch heritage feats).

[RatElemental]

One option you could take is the Elemental Ally (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Druid%20Elemental% 20Ally) Druid archetype. That gives you four (4) customizable critters to fiddle around with (limited evolutions but can all have different feats/forms). You can pick up an animal companion separately if you want (through animal ally or eldritch heritage feats).

This is also a very nice option.

At the moment I've discovered the familiar bond feat, though, which means with house of the green mother's pupil I can just start with all three minions at level 1, with only one feat and one trait spent. I can pick up improved familiar later to make it more combat ready, as well.

[Eldonauran]

If you want PURE shenanigans with critters...

Elemental Ally (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Druid%20Elemental% 20Ally) Druid - Nets you (4) Eidolons that scale with your level
Totem (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Spiritualist%20Tot em%20Spiritualist) Spiritualist - Nets you a 'phantom' that stacks with druid levels (multiple ones, even)
Animal Ally (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Animal%20Ally) + Boon Companion (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Boon%20Companion) feats - for a scaling animal companion based on level
Wasp Familiar (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Wasp%20Familiar) - For a wasp familiar courtesy of Calistria

Take both classes 17 Druid/3 Spiritualist. Never regret it.

[Psyren]

This is also a very nice option.

At the moment I've discovered the familiar bond feat, though, which means with house of the green mother's pupil I can just start with all three minions at level 1, with only one feat and one trait spent. I can pick up improved familiar later to make it more combat ready, as well.

An archetype like Mauler (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/mauler-familiar-archetype/) will also get you a fighting familiar.

I recommend against relying on all three of them for direct combat though, as that will get expensive in terms of their equipment if you want them to survive. Instead, I would have the familiar sneak around delivering touch spells and otherwise being tricky/skillful, then having it play more of a role in the social and exploration parts of the game.

[RatElemental]

An archetype like Mauler (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/mauler-familiar-archetype/) will also get you a fighting familiar.

I recommend against relying on all three of them for direct combat though, as that will get expensive in terms of their equipment if you want them to survive. Instead, I would have the familiar sneak around delivering touch spells and otherwise being tricky/skillful, then having it play more of a role in the social and exploration parts of the game.

Can't take mauler on a familiar bond familiar, not without improved familiar bond anyway. That said there's kind of only one other person in the party, so I'm pretty much just trying to pick up the slack action economy-wise and there should be enough loot to go around. My plan right now is to replace whatever my familiar is now with either a faerie dragon to act as another spellcaster or a nycar which is incredibly hard to kill out of the box.

For early levels I am thinking monkey for familiar, since they can use weapons, wands, and lockpicks.

Mount is probably going to be wolf, as soon as I can find a small race that's good for inquisitors, and I'm thinking some type of bird for the companion. Not sure what I'll do once my options for those open up some more but I'm sure I'll have a better idea of what's needed by then.

[Psyren]

Can't take mauler on a familiar bond familiar, not without improved familiar bond anyway.

Well yeah, but why wouldn't you get that? :smallconfused:


That said there's kind of only one other person in the party, so I'm pretty much just trying to pick up the slack action economy-wise and there should be enough loot to go around.

Uh, has your GM considered gestalt? That's another way to solve this issue without locking you into such a specific concept. Just spitballing of course.

[RatElemental]

Well yeah, but why wouldn't you get that? :smallconfused:

Well It's gonna take me until level 3 to get it and my familiar's gotta do something until then, heh.


Uh, has your GM considered gestalt? That's another way to solve this issue without locking you into such a specific concept. Just spitballing of course.

The DM didn't know I was going to do this until I told them, and it's something I've wanted to do for a while anyway.

[Psyren]

Well It's gonna take me until level 3 to get it and my familiar's gotta do something until then, heh.

You were talking about improved familiar so I had assumed you were looking ahead - that won't be online at level 1 either.


The DM didn't know I was going to do this until I told them, and it's something I've wanted to do for a while anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOCydGRcv1A

They didn't know? But they're running a campaign for two people? What were they planning to do if you didn't show up with a menagerie of frontliners? :smalltongue:

[RatElemental]

You were talking about improved familiar so I had assumed you were looking ahead - that won't be online at level 1 either.

True, but if I get it I can't make a mauler out of the improved ones. Though... share spells and such would still be worth it on their own, probably.


They didn't know? But they're running a campaign for two people? What were they planning to do if you didn't show up with a menagerie of frontliners? :smalltongue:

Well, probably give us some, this is supposed to be a kingmaker game taking place on some continent that the world just accidentally tore a rift in reality and caused to begin existing. There were a bunch of factions we could pick as sponsors for the expedition, we ended up going with the Roman Fey Empire.

[Kurald Galain]

I'd say a mauler is still not an effective melee combatant, and your familiar is better off using spell-like abilities, wands, or other ranged options.

[Psyren]

I agree, the familiar is much more useful activating items and delivering spells than actually fighting.

If you insist on a frontliner though - while most of them are pretty bad choices for Mauler, it's possible to optimize. A Compy in Medium battle form starts out with 15 Str at level 3 and gives you (and therefore itself) +4 Initiative, making it a decent frontliner or flanker. It's also got a poisonous bite, evasion, and eventually gets noticeable natural armor and spell resistance.

You can run this familiar from 1-6, then retrain it to an improved familiar at 7+ depending on the one you're after.

[RatElemental]

A better idea of the build is starting to take shape, and it looks something like this:

Ratfolk Inquisitor (Sacred Huntsmaster), Familiar Bond, etc.

Wolf as Mount, I probably actually will be riding it most of the time, but the option for it to go off and do its own thing (mostly trip people) is there.

For animal companion, probably an ape wearing some armor, but I'm considering a big cat for some extra mobile damage output.

For familiar, depending on how the rest of the party shakes out, either a monkey to handle rogue stuff, one of the birds that can talk so they can use scrolls and wands, or (and this may sound odd), a flowering lattice. If it's the lattice I'll give it to the ape to wear so it can blind everything.

For the third level feat, either improved familiar bond or scurrying swarmer. If I'm interpreting the latter correctly it means while mounted I'll always be flanking anything I'm adjacent to, and being able to activate my teamwork feats by just climbing on my party mates since sacred huntsmaster replaces solo tactics with automatically sharing them with the animal companion should come in handy.

At 5, whichever one I didn't get at 3.

At 7, improved familiar, which I will use to get a fey touched hare or jerboa or something. It can stay in humanoid form all the time to be a proxy UMD user while giving me a pretty nice initiative boost, and change back when it needs to hide for some reason. It might even be able to ride my animal companion as a mount, I'm sure I could make something interesting happen with that. I might see about getting the figment or valet archetypes, to make it impossible to kill (forever) and to boost its utility and expand the teamwork feats thing I've got going, respectively.

I doubt it's really optimal, but I'm not going for hard optimal.

[Kitsuneymg]

If you’re GM is open to 3rd party at all, Spheres of Power has the beastmastery and leadership mundane spheres, and conjuration for magic. You can easily get a large number of minions that scale with your power.

[RatElemental]

Digging into it some more I found a way to get a domain as a hunter, giving up teamwork feats and the ability to share them. Since you can take an inquisition instead of a domain I could take chivalry with it. Unfortunately it only happens at level 3 and is at level -2, so I'd need boon companion to shore the mount up to full level scaling.

I am considering it though, just because hunters get summon nature's ally and in general would be an easier fit to the character concept. Are there any other archetypes that grant domains to non-clerics?

I have also looked into wordcasting, but if I stick with inquisitor it just seems like it's not worth it, interesting as it is.

[Psyren]

For familiar, depending on how the rest of the party shakes out, either a monkey to handle rogue stuff, one of the birds that can talk so they can use scrolls and wands, or (and this may sound odd), a flowering lattice. If it's the lattice I'll give it to the ape to wear so it can blind everything.

I never knew about flowering lattice as a familiar option, do you need a feat or something for that? The pollen DC seems like it will stay pretty low since their Con doesn't increase as a familiar.


For the third level feat, either improved familiar bond or scurrying swarmer. If I'm interpreting the latter correctly it means while mounted I'll always be flanking anything I'm adjacent to, and being able to activate my teamwork feats by just climbing on my party mates since sacred huntsmaster replaces solo tactics with automatically sharing them with the animal companion should come in handy.

You're right about the teamwork feats. For the flanking one, you will get the bonus but your mount (if it is attacking) won't, because it doesn't actually have swarming itself.


At 7, improved familiar, which I will use to get a fey touched hare or jerboa or something. It can stay in humanoid form all the time to be a proxy UMD user while giving me a pretty nice initiative boost, and change back when it needs to hide for some reason. It might even be able to ride my animal companion as a mount, I'm sure I could make something interesting happen with that. I might see about getting the figment or valet archetypes, to make it impossible to kill (forever) and to boost its utility and expand the teamwork feats thing I've got going, respectively.

Unfortunately, Figments can't be Improved Familiars as both require/replace Speak with Animals of Its Kind.


Are there any other archetypes that grant domains to non-clerics?

VMC cleric will get you a domain.

[RatElemental]

I never knew about flowering lattice as a familiar option, do you need a feat or something for that? The pollen DC seems like it will stay pretty low since their Con doesn't increase as a familiar.


It's on the standard familiar list. I know it says a familiar has to be an animal, but there are also archetypes that require you to select a plant as your familiar and don't say they let you do that in the first place, so by my estimation you can just pick one of the plants that are on the list with no special hoops. There's petriferns, creeper ivy, dweomer cap, ravenous tumbleweeds, razor ferns, suture vines, ioun wyrds and a bunch of vermin on the list too.


You're right about the teamwork feats. For the flanking one, you will get the bonus but your mount (if it is attacking) won't, because it doesn't actually have swarming itself.

I don't terribly mind the mount not getting the bonuses. I can get a saddle that will give them access to my teamwork feats eventually anyway.


Unfortunately, Figments can't be Improved Familiars as both require/replace Speak with Animals of Its Kind.

For some reason I thought that if I took a fey-touched familiar that it kept that feature, but rereading it I think you're right. Having a humanoid capable of UMDing is worth it though I think.