Staggering Strike

[Biggus]

Is there any way to defend against it other than Favor of the Martyr? One of my PCs is wreaking havoc with it and I'd rather not just ban it, but it seems overpowered if that's all there is.

[Doctor Despair]

1. Be undead

You're immune to sneak attack damage, and immune to effects that require a fort save unless they also affect objects. Protected on two fronts.

2. Arguably (and you're the DM, so you get to decide how this works) be a construct, plant, fortification, or otherwise be immune to sneak attack damage

I say #2 is arguable because the feat reads "deal damage with a melee sneak attack." Technically, I think you are still making a sneak attack against characters even if they are immune to the precision damage, so they would still be dealing damage. On that note, the rogue could circumvent that ruling by taking the Lightbringer Rogue ACF or using Deathstrike Bracers or something. This brings me to...

3. Have DR

The feat requires you to deal damage. If they don't deal damage, they don't proc the strike. With that said, you can also...

4. Have a miss chance or high AC

Being invisible, blinking, or otherwise making it harder to deal melee damage makes it harder for them to "wreak havoc." Of course, you could always...

5. Stand outside of melee range

If the enemy has the high ground, or can fly, or anything else that inconveniences mundane melee creatures, they can't wreak havoc, either. Of course, if they have some reliable way to gapclose, you could also...

6. Have a passive form of magical healing

Arguably, having fast healing from a magical Vigor effect would cure the Staggering Strike effect at the start of the creature's turn.

So there's a bunch of options, basically. I'm skeptical the rogue is causing so much of an issue with it as a mundane melee character that you need to design entire encounters around it, but if it really is the case, I'd recommend choosing options or combinations of options that still let them use it, but just less often. I'm sure you're aware, but it feels bad as a PC to have the DM decide that you're too good at your niche, so you're not allowed to use your niche ever again.

[Thurbane]

This feat has no effect on creatures not subject to sneak attack damage.

So number 2 on the list above is iron clad.

[Fizban]

If if being immune to Sneak Attack does it, then 2nd level Cleric spell Living Undeath (SpC) does it.

[Thurbane]

The issue I can see here is by making more encounters immune to SA to counter the feat, you're also shutting down that characters ability to contribute damage in combat.

As noted in the OP, sources of immunity to the staggered condition specifically appear to be very limited.

Most melee brutes should have decent Fort save, but maybe not enough to scale with SA damage as the DC.

Casters and other with low Fort saves are in even more trouble. If they have enough HD, you can try to get them the Mind Over Body counter with feats; that's only helpful if they have a decent Concentration score though.

Yeah, bit of a tough one: as a DM, I can definitely sympathise that when a character has an ability that makes a lot of encounters a pushover, it can impact the fun of the game for the group and DM alike. On the other hand, it's hard to have enemies defend against this feat without also making them immune to SA, which would be very harsh on the PC involved.

[RNightstalker]

The issue I can see here is by making more encounters immune to SA to counter the feat, you're also shutting down that characters ability to contribute damage in combat.

Yeah, bit of a tough one: as a DM, I can definitely sympathise that when a character has an ability that makes a lot of encounters a pushover, it can impact the fun of the game for the group and DM alike. On the other hand, it's hard to have enemies defend against this feat without also making them immune to SA, which would be very harsh on the PC involved.

Have a mix where there are some creatures that aren't immune to SA for that PC, and other creatures for the rest of the party. It should also be expected that the bad guys adapt, especially if it's a campaign long story arch. It becomes a chess match of finding ways to make SA count, versus the bad guys finding ways to protect against it.

[Doctor Despair]

With regard to concerns (including my own), I'd recommend just diversifying encounters. Some enemies have some level of protection from the rogue's niche; others don't. The rogue has to learn which types of enemies are typically vulnerable and position themselves accordingly. You can increase or decrease the amount of resistant enemies based on how encounters seem to go.

[Eurus]

Being staggered also isn't completely debilitating. It's definitely not good, but it's not a total lockdown, especially for enemies that can hit hard on just a standard action. If the rogue runs into melee to staggering strike a hydra, they're probably going to regret it.

[Techwarrior]

Being staggered also isn't completely debilitating. It's definitely not good, but it's not a total lockdown, especially for enemies that can hit hard on just a standard action. If the rogue runs into melee to staggering strike a hydra, they're probably going to regret it.

This is low-key really great advice. Enemies that can still absolutely ruin a Rogue in melee with a standard action should be the norm. Most melee bruisers have a very hard hitting attack. Spellcasting creatures also tend to have some way of ruining a Rogue (low Will and Fort) with a spell of their magic doesn't protect them from the Rogue.

Staggering Strike being a melee attack is the big part of what makes it easy to work around. Try to avoid only punishing them by just making things immune. Instead try to incorporate things that punish it being a melee attack in the numerous ways available for that: ranged creatures, flying creatures, melee bruisers, etc.

[Fizban]

And of course between the dreaded "ban" and the free-for-all, you could just nerf it. In particular, to match all the other sneak attack modifying ambush feats. By making it cost sneak attack dice. Or have a standardized save DC instead of whatever damage you can pile up. Or both. 3-4 dice ought to do it.

Which to them will probably feel like a ban since they'll have specifically selected it for being the one sneak attack status effect feat that doesn't reduce sneak attack and having a ludicrously high save DC, but that very sentence should show why it deserves it. Staggered is already a status effect that works on. . . basically anything that goes to negative hit points, right? Which is enough to give it a perfectly reasonable spot among the ambush feats (and pre-ambush feats that used the same mechanics)

As for foes with big single standard actions- depends highly on what sort of foes. If they've been using high level classed humanoids, they'd have to make everything martial adepts. Supernatural abilities are often countered (and meant to be) by simple Resist Energy of the appropriate type, and Rogues have Evasion, so breath weapons and such are of limited use. Most monsters that only have a single attack will be 1: weaker than some DMs would desire simply due to not having full attacks and/or 2:1 Power Attack*, and 2: they're big biters which then means swallow whole which then means the rogue gets to auto-sneak attack and trigger that stagger effect even more easily.

Otoh, grabbing them with a grappler will prevent them from using it, along with most other actions.

*Making single natural weapons deal more PA damage is obvious, but of course then runs the risk of overpowering all the monsters given massive damage without it.

[Darg]

Just nerf the DC to 10 + 1/2 CL + dex mod like most any other combat type feat. Similar to shield slam or stunning fist.

[RaiKirah]

Also, a Staggered character can probably still take a Charge Action if you can find a line and get away from the Rogue. Charge has a clause stating that it "May be taken as a standard action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round."

[Darg]

There's also the withdraw action or spring attack. Spring attack is highly underrated.

[Aracor]

There's also the withdraw action or spring attack. Spring attack is highly underrated.

Withdraw won't help much since it's a full-round action.

[Rebel7284]

Also note that the condition goes away as soon as ANY magical healing is applied. Lesser Vigor is a first level spell that (magically) heals 1hp per turn. It's not unreasonable for intelligent creatures to have that on (or persistent mass lesser vigor if you want to open that can of worms).

In addition, if any enemy has Cleric casting, Close Wounds heals as an immediate action and is a solid spell to begin with.

Staggering strike is indeed one of the better options for a melee Rogue, but between being immune to sneak attack blanking it, in-combat healing blanking it, and anything that doesn't need to full attack blanking it, it certainly shouldn't be impossible to work around in a good percentage of encounters.

[Thurbane]

Withdraw won't help much since it's a full-round action.

Similarly to charge, there is an exception that applies:


Restricted Withdraw
If you are limited to taking only a standard action each round you can withdraw as a standard action. In this case, you may move up to your speed (rather than up to double your speed).

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Being staggered also isn't completely debilitating. It's definitely not good, but it's not a total lockdown, especially for enemies that can hit hard on just a standard action. If the rogue runs into melee to staggering strike a hydra, they're probably going to regret it.


This is low-key really great advice. Enemies that can still absolutely ruin a Rogue in melee with a standard action should be the norm. Most melee bruisers have a very hard hitting attack. Spellcasting creatures also tend to have some way of ruining a Rogue (low Will and Fort) with a spell of their magic doesn't protect them from the Rogue.

Staggering Strike being a melee attack is the big part of what makes it easy to work around. Try to avoid only punishing them by just making things immune. Instead try to incorporate things that punish it being a melee attack in the numerous ways available for that: ranged creatures, flying creatures, melee bruisers, etc.

Agree with this. Most spells, SLAs, psionics, and Tome of Battle strikes only require a standard action to lay down the hurt; heck they can even still charge or use Manyshot if the party is taking advantage of them lacking a move action.

As with all solutions, be careful of overusing it. If it never matters that the enemy is staggered, then the player's feat (and by extension choice) was meaningless. You may want to go a bit more into descriptions, to show that enemies are unhappy about being forced to use their second choice of action.

[Biggus]

Thanks for the replies all! Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you, this week turned out to be unexpectedly busy.


<Lots of good stuff>

Thank you. Due to the nature of the campaign, most enemies aren't of the types that are immune to sneak attacks or have damage reduction, but some of the others (fortification and fast healing in particular) will work.

The reason it's a problem is that the rogue has high strength, two-weapon fighting, and a friend who casts haste on them as a matter of course, so they're getting five attacks per round, which will go up to seven in a couple of levels. Most opponents are failing their save at least once.


If if being immune to Sneak Attack does it, then 2nd level Cleric spell Living Undeath (SpC) does it.

That also works, thanks.


Enemies that can still absolutely ruin a Rogue in melee with a standard action should be the norm. Most melee bruisers have a very hard hitting attack. Spellcasting creatures also tend to have some way of ruining a Rogue (low Will and Fort) with a spell of their magic doesn't protect them from the Rogue.


They're a multiclass rogue/ranger/barbarian with a Con of 16 (20 in rage) so they're not short of HPs or fortitude. Their will save is low though.


Just nerf the DC to 10 + 1/2 CL + dex mod like most any other combat type feat. Similar to shield slam or stunning fist.

I already did this (Str mod instead of Dex, but otherwise exactly that) but due their many attacks per round a lot of opponents are still being affected.

---------------------------------

Thanks to those who pointed out that anything which stops sneak attack will stop the staggered effect, but I'd still like to know if there's anything else which protects against the effect itself. So far the only thing other than FotM we have is (magical) fast healing effects.

[Techwarrior]

Due to the nature of the campaign, most enemies aren't of the types that are immune to sneak attacks or have damage reduction, but some of the others (fortification and fast healing in particular) will work.

The reason it's a problem is that the rogue has high strength, two-weapon fighting, and a friend who casts haste on them as a matter of course, so they're getting five attacks per round, which will go up to seven in a couple of levels. Most opponents are failing their save at least once.


They're a multiclass rogue/ranger/barbarian with a Con of 16 (20 in rage) so they're not short of HPs or fortitude. Their will save is low though.


I already did this (Str mod instead of Dex, but otherwise exactly that) but due their many attacks per round a lot of opponents are still being affected.

---------------------------------

Thanks to those who pointed out that anything which stops sneak attack will stop the staggered effect, but I'd still like to know if there's anything else which protects against the effect itself. So far the only thing other than FotM we have is (magical) fast healing effects.

You could also further nerf it to 1/round instead of allowing it to trigger off of every attack.

Alternatively, you could turn the tables on them and start forcing them to be Staggered, Prone, or anything that denies them a Full Attack. Things like at will small teleports can prevent them from taking Full Attacks by making them move or charge. Anything that can't hack it with this kind of melee bruiser should have options to not have to.

If they have a low will-save and are high level, that needs to be something you exploit to some degree. High level adventurers are absolutely something that villains should be keeping tabs on and doing research on to exploit their weaknesses. That level of multiclassed and focused character almost certainly has a will save of like 3 based on the level you're describing. Any caster can easily force a Save or Lose effect targeting will.

Encounter variety seems to be a problem as well. You said the campaign is preventing you from varying the enemies. You're the DM though, even in a world where your campaign is mostly focused on things like human bad guys they can have allies, minions, and various other servants to keep the PCs on their toes.

[Darg]

Custom single use lesser celerity items would basically negate the stagger in the short term to suffer a stun after which can be problematic.

Overall, if the rogue is getting full attack SAs off it means the fight isn't very mobile or the rogue isn't being threatened themselves. If you are following the CR -> EL rules and this is leading to easy encounters for the party, you should reduce the EL of the encounter so they aren't getting as much reward for it. From here, take into the account the advantages the party has. Initiate special attacks such as a grapple, tripping, tag team disarm into a bull rush. It doesnt even have to be successful. Sneak attack is powerful; staggering strike is powerful. However, they are only as powerful as the situation allows, and if the rogue/party sees that enemies are using tactics to isolate or remove a threat then they will need to take more cautionary measures to prevent themselves from being KO'ed. Which incidentally means that SAs will be harder to come by or they devote more resources into making them safer to execute.

[Crake]

I mean, the simplest solution is for the enemies to just protect each other from being flanked so that the rogue can't easily get a sneak attack without putting himself in horrible danger by diving behind enemy lines and surrounding himself.

[Vaern]

4. Have a miss chance or high AC

Being invisible, blinking, or otherwise making it harder to deal melee damage makes it harder for them to "wreak havoc." Of course, you could always...
IIRC, you can't sneak attack against anything with a miss chance. Things like fog, blur, or Invisibility don't just make you harder to hit - they'll make you outright immune to sneak attack as long as they have no way to ignore miss concealment.
I haven't seen this come up in ages, though, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong :p

[Darg]

IIRC, you can't sneak attack against anything with a miss chance. Things like fog, blur, or Invisibility don't just make you harder to hit - they'll make you outright immune to sneak attack as long as they have no way to ignore miss concealment.
I haven't seen this come up in ages, though, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong :p

It is correct. Skirmish and sudden strike also have that language. Order of the bow initiate's precise shot precision damage is also affected as it is treated as sneak attack damage other than the lack of need for qualifiers.